Facebook
Fark
Digg
Reddit
Stumble
Friday, April 16, 2010 | 2:01 a.m.
Overtime at issue
More than 20 Clark County fire engineers are eligible for retirement this year. The county proposes to offer an exam to firefighters who seek promotion. Those retirements, if not replaced, would add to the department’s multimillion-dollar overtime tab. The union objects, saying offering the exam would be a contract violation.
Rory Reid
Steve Sisolak
Sun archives
- Has fire union support become a campaign curse? (4-15-2010)
- County commissioner named in threat on Facebook (4-8-2010)
- County Commission beefs up security after Sisolak threatened (4-7-2010)
- ‘Boot drive’ OT for individual firefighters is unknown (4-4-2010)
- Practice of on-duty firefighters raising money for charity questioned (3-31-2010)
- Fire union goal: Silence Sisolak (3-19-2010)
- Las Vegas firefighters burn up more sick time than other city employees (3-14-2010)
- Clark County firefighters profit from sick leave policy (3-7-2010)
- Commissioner offers pared Metro budget as example for others (2-25-2010)
- ‘Longevity pay’ costs millions in county (12-10-2009)
- Firefighters feeling budget backlash (5-28-2009)
- County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
Clark County commissioners said this week that the firefighters union is opposing efforts that would reduce the department’s ballooning overtime costs.
The union has long argued that Fire Department overtime — which totaled $14.1 million last year — is the direct result of the county’s refusal to hire more firefighters.
But commissioners said recent messages from the union’s chief to county staff undercut that claim.
E-mails sent in early April, and obtained by the Sun, show firefighters union President Ryan Beaman threatening to file a legal grievance if the county offers exams this year for rank-and-file firefighters pursuing a promotion to fire engineer.
Beaman was responding to a “heads up” from the county’s Human Resources Department, which said it planned to start the exams to find replacements for the more than 20 engineers eligible for retirement or promotion in the next 12 months. Another five engineer positions are vacant.
Delaying the exam until next year, commissioners said, would leave fewer of the higher-paid engineers on staff, forcing the county to pay them more in overtime as they work extra to cover one anothers’ absences.
Commission Chairman Rory Reid said he was “dumbfounded” by Beaman’s reply, especially given that the union chief has said publicly that he has no control over overtime costs.
“I don’t understand why they’re doing what they’re doing,” Reid said. “If ... they don’t want to cooperate to balance the budget, we’ll have to figure out other ways to do that.”
In an April 6 e-mail to county Human Resources Director Jesse Hoskins, Beaman, who is an engineer, said holding exams this year would violate the union’s contract, which states the test is offered every other year. The last time was in 2009.
That every-other-year timetable is in the collective bargaining agreement “to prevent surprises to candidates, to make sure that all applicants were aware of the eligibility cutoff dates and allow for those qualifications needed to be met prior to the test,” Beaman wrote.
Firefighters are responsible for the lifesaving duties most people associate with the title, while an engineer drives firefighters to incidents and is responsible for the function of fire equipment. In 2009, engineers’ average compensation, including overtime, was about $131,000, while compensation for a Firefighter I was $55,307 and a Firefighter II was $90,084.
Beaman refused to discuss the e-mails with the Sun on Thursday. They are part of negotiations and should not have been released, he said.
County staff and the firefighters union are negotiating a new contract.
Rusty McAllister, president of the Professional Fire Fighters of Nevada, said Beaman’s reluctance to budge on the tests is warranted because it is in the union contract. If the county wanted to allow engineer testing this year, it should have made that part of its contract proposal when negotiations began this year, McAllister added.
“My question is, ‘Why didn’t the county’s negotiating team put that in?’ ” McAllister said, adding that he is not involved in the county-union negotiations. “It seems like an error on their part.”
But something could still be worked out, he noted. “Anything is negotiable. I’d say tit for tat. If I’ve got something you want, we can barter.”
Commissioner Steve Sisolak was outraged at the suggestion that the county should barter “for something that would be in the best interest of the taxpayer and the union’s own members.”
“Why do they always have to get something for helping the taxpayer save money or helping out their own members?” Sisolak said. “This isn’t asking to cut their vacation days. It’s to add an exam so we can have some firefighters ready to become engineers.”
The “hard line” Beaman took in his e-mail, Sisolak said, will benefit existing engineers because they’ll collect more overtime until a new round of engineers is ready to fill vacancies. But it will hurt younger firefighters who have to wait another year to take the test to pursue the promotion.
“Not only isn’t this going to reduce overtime, it’s going to increase it,” he said.
County Manager Virginia Valentine reported this week that although the county expects to reduce overtime by 11 percent overall this year, Fire Department overtime is on pace to rise 6.2 percent — from $14.1 million in fiscal year 2009 to $15 million in the fiscal year that ends July 31. If the Fire Department were excluded from that calculation, the county would spend about $2.7 million on overtime this year.
Reid wrote an e-mail to Valentine on Monday after seeing the latest county overtime projections and seeing Beaman’s e-mail.
“Not hiring people has been the thing (the union has) pointed to for a long time, and now that we’ve agreed to hire more people, they say no,” Reid stated. “Their actions are completely contrary to their recent public statements that they have no control over overtime and that they have no opportunity to provide input into how the county staffs fire positions.”
That discord could play into cost-cutting measures the county must take to meet a projected $57 million budget gap in the coming year.
“I think we have no choice but to consider whatever equipment and resource utilization decisions are necessary to reduce our costs and get us closer to solving our budget deficit,” Reid wrote. “Let me know what the next steps are.”
We don't need more firefighters, we don't need to be continually fleeced by their union, and the taxpayers of this state need to make this very clear to the corrupt politicians with their pockets and noses open to them!
The fire union should pull there head out of there ash!
Joe Scho writes another attack piece for his bro Telemarketer Sisolak. Sounds like Steve and Rory should be mad at their management team for not taking care of business in the first place.
Maybe sisolak should not have sued clark county for 16.5 million dollars either. Oh, but that was the right thing to do.
NOW IF WE GET THE OTHER COMMISSIONER'S ON BOARD WITH REID AND SISOLAK, THEN THAT WOULD SEND A VERY STRONG RESPONSE TO THE FIRE UNION. I WOULD SUGGEST THOSE WHO ARE UP FOR REELECTION DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND CLIMB ABOARD..OUR YOU SHOULD BE OUSTED.
This Sisolak / CCFD show is sure getting boring.
What Joe is very slow to understand is that doing a test a year in advance is the equivalent to your teacher calling for the class final on the second day of school. For all the fire haters out there, and you too Joe, it does take a long time to prepare to take the Engineers test. There aren't any successful candidates for the position who just cram for the test. There is a lot that goes into being a Fire Engineer, besides just driving around. They need to be skilled and knowledgeable about their duties to prevent getting someone killed or injured.
But, whatever. Joe and Sisolak are living in their magical fantasyland where they have created a make-believe reality and are hoping that everyone will join them. Resist and learn the truth!
It looks like the fire department is responsible for about 75% of the County's overtime expenses, at a time when the County is in a financial crisis. This is exactly the topic that responsible journalists should be covering. We've heard over and over again from the firefighters that they don't have a choice on overtime because the County refuses to hire more workers. If the firefighters are now fighting the hiring of more employees, it proves that they are not interested in the financial stability of the County and are more concerned over their own big checks than they are about other County employees losing their jobs. Don't back down Joe. S. This is not boring. This is of critical importance.
firefighters are low level life forms...
they pretend they do charity work...
they do not...
by definition you can not call anything you do while at work "charity"...
they pretend that they are concerned about public service and the community...
they are not...
in fact...
they have no problem destroying a community if it means putting more dollar bills in their pockets...
like i said boys and girls...
firemen are low level life forms...
and they all need to be fired...
you could replace them all in a week...
2 weeks tops...
let's be frank...
firemen are not rocket scientists...
these are not the best and brightest among us...
nor the bravest...
they are easily replaced...
in sum...
firemen are low level life forms...
The Clark County Clown Bin is getting fewer laughts these days. RoryBOY and his posse are just not funny anymore.
First UMC is a wreck due to mismanagement. You are better off getting the plague than walking into UMC for help. Thanks, RoryBOY.
The county is broke. And everyone is blaming the fire fighters because they were SMART enough to get a very good deal of a contract.
Who is doing these 'contract' negotiations for the county? Must be dumb, dumber and really stupid. Even worse, who is approving them? Oh, it's RoryBOY and his clown bin. Go figure?
A few million dollars in overtime is chump change for the county. Remember that RoryBOY is saying he balanced a $6 BILLION county budget?
Hmmm. I wonder why it's $72 million in the RED then. Could it gross negligence, incompetence and stupitdy? Pick your poison.
And RoryBOY. the Clown of Clowns wants to be Governor. Just what we need. NOT.
It won't be long now, before RoryBOY proves he is not even smart enough to be called retarded.
Jim Gibbons won't feel left out anymore. He will have someone to mumble to on his level.
Vote for me and I will fix the problems. How? Does it matter as long as you are not relegated to poverty, you have a job and lower taxes.
Fred Conquest
Democratic Candidate for Governor
www.fred.conquest.com
stop all negotiations right now...
tell these low lifes after the contract expires we are going to go in a different direction...
you could replace all of these maggots in a week...
2 weeks tops...
and save the county a hundred million or so...
stop the nonsense...
Hey Joe, unsilent majority, whatever it is that you're calling yourself today- Thank You for FINALLY writing about the problem being in the Clark County area. The other juristictions have been beatup for your inability to be accurate.
When will you be writing about the Henderson FD? Afterall, more people live in Henderson than unincorporated Clark County, including Rory Reid!
hey rory reid...
you want to be governor...
prove it buddy...
prove to the public that you can stop the citizens of clark county from being screwed by their own firemen...
got that pal...
seems to me...
if you can not stop this crap...
you do NOT deserve to be governor...
Fred Conquest, Democratic Candidate for Governor: Fred, quit campaining in these forums. You need to pay for your political advertising.
I've requested your post be removed.
Thats said, I'm not a fan of the greedy firefighters, their union or Rory Reid and his father, Harry.
Sorry FredConquest.
It just dawned on me, your comment is a JOKE.
OK, I'll vote for you. I like your sense of humor.
Wizard, yes. You'd think the Sun would do a story on the county commisioners voting on their insane fire contracts. But, that just won't happen. Believe me, there are plenty of nice fireman group photos of all seven of them on "campaign walks" floating around. Heaven will have to split before the Sun forces Joe to reoort a fair and accurate picture.
Fire all the union firefighters and hire non-union employees. That's the only solution as long as the union continues to block cost cutting measures.
Birdie, YOU are beyond ignorant. Stupidity would even be a complement for you.
To be an engineer you not only have to know all the physics of all the fire equipment, you have to know how to take it apart and how to fix it if it is not working properly. Even a fire fighter has to learn the science behind fires, the types of fires there are, and the proper procedure in putting the different kinds of fires out. These people have to take classes to learn what we don't know.
birdie thinks that being a fireman is just holding a holding a fire hose on a fire. No wonder his comments don't contain full sentences.
Why don't you complainers save your moaning and groaning for the politicians who aren't doing their jobs to negotiate with the firefighters as the laws are written. I will say it again, I know that nobody would turn down anything the firefighters have in their contract.
Again if the city and/or county are not happy, the next time the firefighters have their contract negotiations, these problems(?) should be brought up.
Some of you people complain about unions? As in this situation the unions are there to protect the working man. Be thankful, You wouldn't want some ignorant, stupid fireman trying to to put a fire out if it was engulfing your house.
You should all start complaining about the politicians who don't even realize that the fire fighters ARE not doing any wrong and are working under the contract/agreement that is written buy our politicians.
The firemen don't need this crap when they are following their contract.
Another thing to think about, is Rory the candidate you want for governor when he doesn't even know and/or won't find out what is in the firefighters contracts?
to: Joan, Birdiedreamin,,Wizard,Redroc, Did you not read mrss post? Does that not make any sense to you? Take off the horse blinders...
I don't know if what Beaman said is right or wrong, but it's the law. And as Rusty McAllister stated, anything can be negotiated.For all you union haters, answer this question...What do you think NON-UNION wages would be if there were no unions at all? How about $2.25 minimum wage!
Fred Conquest,
When you make a comment and seek an individuals vote (or an independent for that matter), I don't mind you posting on here to discuss your points.
What I don't like is you constantly using the same monikers for your opponents, and neglecting to make a solid case for why you could do the job better.
Go ahead and post on here, but stop this RoryBOY bull$$$$. We all may not like him, but you sure as hell aren't making a better case.
On a side note ... doesn't this quote read weird?
"Not only isn't this going to reduce overtime, it's going to increase it," he said.
It sounds like he should be saying, not only are we going to lose our overtime, but we won't have any at all ...
but instead, it sounds contradictory - maybe I'm just not understanding it - I do have UNLV degree. HAH!
Birdie, your generalizations and derogatory comments are out of line. I don't agree with what the Fire Fighter Union is doing, but you're being an ass
As a tax payer in clark county I have had about enough of this game playing by the fire fighters union. They have exhausted whatever good will they had prior. Its time for our elected officials to get serious about this problem. Something must be done!!!
wizard, the test is contractually scheduled for every 2 years. Historically, the reason the schedule is in the contract is when times were good and the County preferred to just pay OT, they would postpone holding promotion exams even though there were willing and qualified bodies ready to take the exams.
dhvincent, if you were studying for a promotional test that occurs every 2 years, but a prerequisite to take the test was completion of a class, but the county hadn't provided the class. Instead they wanted to hold the exam a year early, before offering the class. Is it reasonable to demand that the county at least offer the required classes before holding the test a year before schedule?
replacing these blowhards would be easy easy easy...
done in one week...
two weeks tops...
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr...
unemployment is approaching 14%...
foreclosures are up...
yes up...
and yet the average firemen makes 188k...
that is outrageous...
OUTRAGEOUS!!!
OUTRAGEOUS!!!
OUTRAGEOUS!!!
period...
end of story...
and these blowhards want to negotiate???
they must be fired before the destroy the community!!!
fire them all!!!
they are easily replaced!!!
easily replaced!!!
Can any of you truly justify this?:
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
Birdie you don't have to constantly remind us of your lack of reasonable mentality. All of your comments keep proving to us that you will never change. I am so sorry for your family.
to you blowhards defending these community destroyers...
answer me this...
is a single child in any career guidance counselor's office anywhere in america being told that he or she should consider an alternative career because they just aren't qualified to become a firemen???
hee hee hee...
hoo hoo hoo...
haa haa haa...
like i said...
firemen are not the best and brightest among us...
not by a long shot...
they can be replaced...
easily replaced...
in a week...
2 weeks tops...
NRS-288 has to be completely rewriten before any real changes can be made. Here is the text from the State website:
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-288.h...
As long as local governments are required to have collective bargaining and have idiots for negotiators we will continue to read these stories. It's time to start questioning candidates for state office how they feel about this.
Silverstater, you are asking the wrong people. Direct your questions to the politicians who are in charge of the contract negotiations with the firefighters unions, they are the ones who have to answer to the people, not the firefighters union or the firefighters.
This article is filled with a lot of half-truths, if you promote firefighters to engineers and don't hire firefighters your still paying a lot in overtime. Promoting is not the same as hiring. More misdirection by Joe and Steve.
So rather than give up their precious six figure incomes for maybe $90k instead... these guys would rather sell out and keep making all that OT than give their unemployed brothers their jobs back? Greedy bastards... and I did this for free...FREE for 15 years in a very busy department.
What a joke these six figure sallies are.
hey frem...
the average firemen makes 188k...
that is wrong...
that will destroy the community...
that must end...
period...
end of story...
so please...
do me a favor...
save the other nonsense for someone who cares...
and quite frankly...
i don't care...
By the way, one interesting way to get around the contract would be to declare a state of emergency and suspend the contract. It would result in a court battle from hell, but the entertainment value alone might be worth it.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr...
and these blowhards want to play negotiating games???
fire all the firemen now!!!
right now!!!
before they will destroy the community!!!
One more item of interest, any classes that are required in order to take the exam will entitle the student to be paid OT while in class. There is no provision that says you must pass the exam in order to receive the OT.
Great post boftx. SO they get OT for taking the class so they can get a position that will pay them more money to get them more OT. Unbelievable. How the hell did this happen??? Who negotiated this ridiculous contract???
It's time to flash back when President Regan fired the Air Controllers. Beware Union! You're pushing the envelope!
Who is managing the fire department? Where is the, um, leadership?
Hey Joe,
Nice picture of Rory :) Well done. But how does Steve feel about sharing the stage?
boftx & unsilent, as I said in the other thread...
you refer to Article 22, Section 8. I'm not aware of any of these classes being considered required. As a result, as stated in Section 7, subsection C of the same article (22), "such educational courses, seminars or training programs shall be taken on the employee's own time".
I know your point is in the contract, but its never used. All continuing education is scheduled on days the employee is not working.
Buddy, do you honestly think that no one in the Dept. has found a way to take advantage of that? Why would that clause be there if there were no required courses to begin with? Why do many, if not in fact most FF have degrees in Fire Science except that degree is required to advance or to meet minimum performance standards?
I wonder if we can get summary info from County HR on how much OT was paid pursuant to this clause. Joe, can you dig this up?
for you blowhards that are trying to brag about all the skill needed to be firemen...
stop the nonsense...
answer me this...
what percentage of firemen finished in the top 10% of their high school class???
hmmm???
so please...
knock it off...
these are not the best and brightest...
they are easily replace...
EASILY REPLACED!!!
ps...
did you noticed i said high school class...
not college class...
does anyone go to college to become a firemen???
hmmm???
STOP THE NONSENSE!!!
boftx, I can honestly say I'm aware of not one person taking advantage of this clause. None of the classes associated with a Fire Science degree are "required" as far as the County is concerned. As a result, they are scheduled for days when the employee aren't working.
Why is it in the contract? I don't know for sure. I could assume that without it, an employer might suddenly propose a required class and force the employee to attend and the class off duty, without any form of concession. This is just a guess, but seems logical to me.
Your right many FFs have degrees. The hiring process of an entry level firefighter is extremely competitive and holding a degree in the subject shows one's level of preparation for the job. But regarding promotional exams, degrees are only "required" for Chief positions.
Birdie, In your other post you say "you dont care" well its obvious you do! Otherwise you wouldnt keep posting on here like a fifth grader that doesnt get his way.
I find it halarious too that you keep puting FF's down because of your percieved lack of education. You might want to look in the mirror, your posts do nothing for your education credibility!
what exactly is a fire science degree???
i just checked on harvard's web site...
no such thing...
is it a 4 year degree program???
is it a 2 year degree program???
how many people apply???
how many people get rejected???
like i said...
firemen are not rocket scientists...
they are EASILY REPLACED!!!
The County, like most others, defy logic and common sense to wit: How many times have we witnessed sprain joints in an incident where people got up, brushed themselves off and walked away while two ambulances, a half million dollar fire pumper truck and metro was called to assist? And this was chaulked up as an emergency call to justify more funds in the next fiscal year. All readers can give testimony to this example. We see it every day.
Buddy, you seem to speak with some knowledge on this subject. In the interest of fair dialouge, can you disclose if you have some position with either the County or FF that permits this? For myself, I am just a citizen who has followed the links provided to the contract and looked up the text for NRS-288. My opinions are strictly my own.
what the hell else are these community destroyers going to do if they get fired???
think they will make 188k in their next job???
Birdie, nobody is saying you need to go to an Ivy League School to be a FF except for you. Your point is rediculous.
Birdie, your figures are from last month's articles and need to be updated. According to Joe's latest article (this one)... "In 2009, engineers' average compensation, including overtime, was about $131,000, while compensation for a Firefighter I was $55,307 and a Firefighter II was $90,084."
boftx, I too am a citizen, and a tax payer. My opinions are also strictly my own. In the interest of fair dialogue, why does it matter? My opinions and data come from my personal experience as well as researching the topic beyond what the Sun would have us believe at face value.
hey buddy...
you can spin the numbers all you want pal...
i don't know what all the different job levels there are for holding a hose...
but 188k is OUTRAGEOUS!!!
133k is OUTRAGEOUS!!!
250k for captains is OUTRAGEOUS!!!
fire all these community destroyers...
and start over from scratch...
and you know what...
i bet you could replace them all for 50k each...
in this economy...
no problemo!!!
bottom line...
if the union wants to play negotiating games...
crush the union...
just like reagan did with the air traffic controllers...
crush them...
you want to know what else pal...
birdie ain't no right wing nut job...
birdie is a bleeding heart liberal...
and birdie says...
CRUSH THE UNION!!!
Its funny how the numbers change with each article. Joe must think to himself before he writes these articles, Humm, What numbers shall I use today? I know, I will just make something up.
Joe, You look like more of a fool with each article...The public isnt buying into it. Yes, you may have won over birdieman and a handful of other degenerates on this blog.
This Valley has 2 Million people, and your readers are cancelling subscriptions with each fictitious article. Joe, Whats the new subscription status of your paper lately? That would be a good honest article, of course you would make that fictitious too!
Buddy, it mattered only to the extent that if you were in some way connected to either party then your statements regarding what you know to have been done or not done would carry extra weight.
With no disrespect intended (and certainly none is warranted), you have made statements such as "... to my knowledge ... " with regards to what OT has been paid for. Have you managed to get information on the specific items we have been discussing?
Boftx, I'm a citzen too, & from the contract posted on the Sun Buddy seems to have read it & so did I, he's right. Because of it, it wouldn't be financially smart for us to hire more ff. I can't see paying for more wages, benefits, retirement, taxes, and other costs hiring another person. I'm not quite understanding fully why the big up roar over OT & the ff because looking at the transperentnevada link seems it's acrossed the board thru all the jurisdictions.
Another noted item is the county commisioners don't seem to make public any internal audit (if any) within their county, meaning, what are the spending habits of clark county & other jurisdictions?
Buddy has not been completely forthcoming here. From his most recent post on the thread regarding the FF endorsement being a liability (http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr...) he says this after outlining various FF activities in the 3rd person:
"... But yes, we also spend our own money to shop, we eat, we use the bathroom, sometimes we even shower. ..."
He goes on to use the word "we" several more times when referring to FF activies.
From this I conclude that he is in fact connected to a FD, as some of us had thought but had not voiced. His statements of facts regarding FD policy and practices carry an extra weight of authority and should be checked even more than others. In the case of those of us who are *only* citizens and tax-payers it is clear that we are posting opinion unless we can back it up with links to publicly available information.
I won't argue that the way the contract is written that the union has the County by the short and curlys with regards to cost of staffing. Nor will I disagree that this is not only a FD problem. But the FD appears to be the biggest problem area.
To be fair, it is clear that we as citizens have not done enough homework to verify that our elected officials are acting in our best interest. But that doesn't mean we can't take back control of the process and do it right.
Botftx, I don't know that he'd carry more weighted authority but outside of the media rhetoric I'd like to hear more on that side of the spectrum cause we don't know that side, only the side of what is in the media, which I believe is somewhat slanted, especially thru these economic woes we're experiencing. I forget which paper (RJ or Sun) but if I recall correctly one of these unions are in contract negotiations, so wouldn't it make sense for the politicians to start some media campaign toward the negative against whomever their negotiating with? I say this because the media blitz has been big recently and not anytime before.
I'm concerned on the spending of money by our jurisdictions. I went to my town hall meeting & my cousin's area town hall meeting and all you saw was a bean-counter powerpoint-bar-pie representation but no detail information about actual spending. It made me feel there's something amiss and wondered why.
I agree with you that it is good to hear the other side of the story, but I want to KNOW when I'm hearing from someone who is there and not have it presented as being un-biased.
As I understand it, and as was repeated in the above story, the County and IAFF are in new contract negotiations now. These are of course secret. I doubt we can even get copies of what instructions the County negotiators were given.
I'm not even sure that we, the public, are entitled to look at the final contract before approval, but I haven't fully decipered NRS-288 on that point yet.
Botftx, nah, I don't believe the contract is written to have county by the shorts, cause I saw that it was approved by our local government. We have the luxury of reading the ff contract due to our media, but we don't have other unions contract to review... so I don't think it's fair to directly hold them as the biggest problem. I sure would like to get a hold of metro's contract to review, not to mention all others.
I certainly believe with you, we need to do something with our local government by taking the control back; and absolutely we need to start doing our homework instead of allowing others to do it for us.
Hey Birdie,
If you're still running for public office on the "No Fireman Deserves More Than 75K Annually" platform, you've still (choke) got my vote. I've almost got your campaign signs ready as well.
They're in the shape of boots, too. I thought that somehow appropriate.
I'm sticking with my original thought for a campaign slogan:
"Vote For Birdie...I Suppose It Could Be Worse..."
Let me know!
Boftx, you're not kidding with that NRS288, I hold our legislative body accountable for that riddle of a law. If there's NRS, then there's a NAC, so at some point I'll have to attempt reading & understanding that code. I wonder who are the county negotiators?
As far as being un-biased, I think Buddy can be biased. I was looking at his other postings, it would seem he's trying to attempt to educate & motivate people (even people like me) to really start looking at the whole picture instead of just the media blitz. So keep up the postings Buddy, the other side does need to be heard.
Here is what I think is the controlling clause is in NRS-288:
"NRS 288.153 Agreement must be approved at public hearing; report of fiscal impact of agreement. Any new, extended or modified collective bargaining agreement or similar agreement between a local government employer and an employee organization must be approved by the governing body of the local government employer at a public hearing. The chief executive officer of the local government shall report to the local government the fiscal impact of the agreement."
I see nothing there that says we have a chance to view it first and express our concerns to the governing body before approval.
County Manager Virgina Valentine is hiring an assistant for 150k a year plus bennies. Guess our tax money is better spent on admin for the 6th floor. Can anyone tell me what Sabra Smith does for the county and why we pay her 95k annual salary? Has anyone else checked out transparentnevada? What a flippen disgrace. How many staff persons do the commissioners and county managers need? My God.
boftx, i meant no harm in not disclosing that i am a firefighter. I simply knew that the evidence you sought existed in my other posts and I thought it might be fun for you to discover it first hand. I hope everyone would use those same sharp detective skills to find the truth regarding what Joe and Steve would like you to believe at face value.
Boftx, would seem that way, and of course..
NRS 288.220 Certain proceedings not required to be open or public. The following..
1. Any negotiation or informal discussion between a local government employer and an employee organization or employees as individuals...2. Any meeting of a mediator with either party or both parties to a negotiation...3. Any meeting or investigation conducted by a fact finder.4. Any meeting of the governing body of a local government employer with its management representative or representatives.5. Deliberations of the Board toward a decision on a complaint, appeal or petition for declaratory
Legislative process at work here, amazing isn't it. On the flip side, can you imagine the community reviewing all contracts before approval? The time it would take to get an approval for contract would even be more amazing.
I've experienced working for a non-union place & union. Both have disadvantages as well as advantages, makes you wanna work for yourself to be honest. But regardless, if you had to choose Boftx, would you be union or non-union? Me, based on my experience (and I've been laid off on both sides)...I'd have to go union, the disadvantages are lower & employee treatment is a little better (not by much, but it is a little better).
The truth we are finding is that we need much better negotiators who understand when a status of "exempt" can be applied to workers.
Put the service under a competitive contract. Allow private sector companies to compete to provide the service. They only get paid what the county agrees to pay them, no more. They would be required by the contract to provide fire fighting service to county residents at no additional out of pocket cost.
Boftx, you ever been an exempt employee? I have a friend who was & is now out of a job just because the new manager wanted a friend in that spot, so being exempt she was laid off & is having an impossible time fighting it. This is not the route to go leaving people at the mercy of unqualified managers.
I wonder if there's a way to hold contracts during economic crisis?
Patrick_R_Gibbons, and drive up the cost of insurance to compensate the rise in costs that will come with private sector? We get enough of that already with the doctors/dentists under insurance contracts now.
My own preference is non-union. I have never been in one, and do not anticipate being so. I am a programmer by trade and have "exempt" status due to my pay. When I was younger I worked in various technical jobs but again, I was always earning a reasonable living.
I see unions as a valid and vital piece of the free-market place for labor. But I do NOT believe that the public sector is a part of that and therefore unions have no place in the public sector.
Botfx, if you had to choose, which way would you go, union or non-union?
Botfx, I was too quick at the posting..sorry. That's interesting point you bring out. I was surprised that there were unions in the public sector, but I have worked previously for the govt sector I will tell you that unions really are need there, or a total revamp on employment treatment, equipment, even pensions.
I found that the public sector is worse, though you'd think that public & govt are one in the same, they're similar. Kinda makes you think what was going on years before that made people feel they need unions in our public sector...
Looks like we are posting in sync. :)
I once worked for the State of Texas (in a small agency as a programmer) and we were not part of a collective bargaining unit. The pay wasn't great, I could make more at the time in the private sector, but the benefits were good and the job security was better. That is the traditional trade-off between private/public sector jobs. (I had to leave that job due to family considerations and I was not happy about it).
But now, it seems not only do our public sector workers have better benefits, but better pay as well, and the right to be in a union on top of that. This creates what I see as a conflict of interest between serving the public and looking out for yourself first.
As an aside, I have worked as "exempt" for almost my entire adult life, including the ultimate in being "exempt" as an enlisted member of the US Navy.
redwhite_blue,
I think we need to define our terms. I use "public sector" and "government" interchangably while the term "private sector" I think is fully understood. Please clarify the difference between "public" and "government" and I'll try to keep that in mind so we avoid confusion.
Boftx, well whatta ya know, I'm ex-Navy too. But if I recall we were considered government property (LOL), a far cry from being exempt. Plus, you had to be a real screwball to be kicked out, so exempt, I don't know would apply here. However, I've had the "luxury" of working pretty much in all capacities of employment (to include exempt). I remember not wanting to get any govt or public job because they didn't pay nor offer any kind of benefits that would entice me to apply. So like you, I went private sector, but at a cost as it turns out until I worked under a union contract. I was better paid then under union contract, so when my tips went down to almost nothing, my hourly wage still covered my nut. So I suppose in the private sector it depends on the type of career you choose.
I noticed looking on websites, they don't say how long a person has been working in these public jobs. If my math serves me correct, if you were to stay in the public sector, say about 15-20 years, it would look like your pay is a lot, but in reality it's not. So in other words, what took private sector say 5 years to earn would be equivalent to 10-15 years for the public sector. I noticed that when I was working in the govt sector; within 4 years I earned more than my boss did in 15 years, pretty sad.
Boftx, govt is federal, public is local government
Boftx, or at least this is too my understanding of what they are
Don't you wish you got paid OT for all those watches you stood *after* the normal workday? I don't know how many times we had to go 36hrs or more. At least they were realistic about it, they would bust you for pot, but they damn near issued whites to us (and I don't mean our uniforms).
Boftx, ain't that truth brother! There is a (I believe State) that says you get paid OT when you work over a certain number hours, & you can sue your employer if they don't pay OT.
will you guys get a room already...
hee hee hee...
It's going to be in NRS-208.
There is a very interesting clause in there that might be put to good use by the negotiators, specifically NRS-608.018 section 3 paragraph (d) that says the following is among those exempt from OT pay requirements: "(d) Employees who are employed in bona fide executive, administrative or professional capacities;"
Given that the parent association for FF unions is the "Professional Fire Fighters of Nevada" as stated in the article above, I wonder if we can gut that contract of OT? I would love to be on that negotiating team. I can point you to several vendors who are glad I am no longer in purchasing.
hey labdaddy...
thanks for the support...
you never know partner...
i swear...
i genuinely believe you could win on this one issue...
and this issue alone...
it is OUTRAGEOUS!!!
Ooops, I meant NRS-608, not 208, where the law requiring OT payments and suing for payment thereof would be found.
Boftx, the clause for salaried employees (non-hourly), interesting, but still doesn't address the reason for the OT. If I'm understanding the "whole picture", we have a doubled-edged sword working. Meaning, manpower is not at it's full compliment, hence you have OT. You hire a enough to obtain full compliment of manpower and you pay more there. So from a financial perspective, which pays less, the hiring of more or OT...I'm figuring OT.
From the sounds coming from these firetards, you have to know more to run a firetruck than to operate the space shuttle. And as for having no control over overtime, guess those threatening emails tell the truth. I spit on you firedemons.
Boftx, this is what happens when I don't read (LOL), well professionals are defined in NRS 608 (ref to all the other NRSs). Turns out they are: Architects, interior design and residential design, real estate brokers & sales, exchange facilitators, interpreters and real time captioning providers. Apparently, FF aren't considered professionals, LOL...now that's a hoot.
Another poster, croc1 (who is a FF), brought up the point that the County actually likes this contract from a political persoective. It is clear that the way it is written it is cheaper to pay the OT than hire more, but they (the County officials) can point to the union as being the bad guys. At the same time, the union gets more effective pay for its members while saying the County refuses to hire more staff.
I think we need to come to a compromise on what hours can be counted as "work". I would be willing to say a FF is entitled to OT after having "worked" a given number of hours. I really have a hard time saying hours on stand-by at the station or out shopping are "work". I propose that OT is only paid after a given numbers of actual "work" (i.e. time on calls) is performed and that time spent on "stand-by" or in class does not count towards that. I would also want to see that County payments to a retirement fund are based *only* on time spent on-duty and not on any other compensation.
Because FF present themselves as professionals (and I don't mean only because of the name of the union) there is significant reason to hold them to that standard for purposes of NRS-608. They (the FF) will certainly not want to adopt a policy of no OT, but at the same time most citizens do appreciate the dangers they face when actually fighting a fire.
Is there any way we can get the politicians and union leaders to listen to and accept a compromise here? More importantly, can we get our elected officials to see that we, the tax-payers, are fed up with them catering to endorsers instead of their constituents?
"I really have a hard time saying hours on stand-by at the station or out shopping are "work"."
Yeah, they should do it because they WANT TO...
who needs free time!!!
Get serious.
Get rid of the negotiators from both sides.
Bring in an arbitrator.
Make it binding.
End of story.
gmag39, look at your last post and unfocus your eyes slighty. It looks exactly like something we would expect from Birdie, short one liners one after another. I expect better from you.
As for what you suggest, I find the idea of us just rolling over and letting an abritator decide what is best for us even worse than having officials who don't listen to us. You are essentially saying that you are too lazy to care about what our government does in our name or on our behalf. Again, I expect better from you.
gmag39, I couldnt agree with you more, because when an arbitrator see's all the facts and figures and makes a ruling, the media will finally have to publish the truth...of course birdie and others still wont accept it!
Boftx, I think they can compromise. Actual time on duty? Don't know. I reflect on the USN days and how would you track that? If we weren't working, we were cleaning, repairing, training, or studying, all of which was considered working/on duty. And as I understand it, is what ff does. Shopping? LOL that's something that can be given up. Any profession can hold themselves to a standard, but that doesn't make them a professional, a master at their craft maybe, but not professional.
Politicians are what they are politicians, they look at numbers (voters), and the numbers are groups of people like unions. The politicians know we're not happy with them, & they want to get re-elected, again they'll be looking at numbers. So, can we get our elected officials to see the light? Yes...if EVERYONE goes to vote, instead of the 20%-30% of our town who do. Now that's a number, and we're a group called Nevadans.
Just exactly who is in charge of the fire department? It appears the tail is wagging the dog. Overtime is to be the exception, not a part of standard compensation. Many of us get sent home at the first hint we may be moving into the overtime pay bracket, why are fire fighters different? It is cost effective to have enough staff to avoid paying overtime. I am getting a little tired of hearing how these extremely well paid employees are gaming the system to extract even more precious tax payer dollars, at time when some public employees are getting laid off.
If they can do better than what is offered on straight full time pay, perhaps they should quit. There are enough laid off North Las Vegas firefighters to take up some of the slack, so let's replace them.
With all due respect to 9/11 and heroic acts, its is time to get down to basics. Fighting fires like all the other work Las Vegans do, must be completed in a cost effective way. Most of us have taken a hit during this recession, so why should firefighters be immune?
Even though there has been some good discussion going on in this thread, is anyone besides me reminded of the scene from "Blazing Saddles" with the preacher?
To boftx, This is better!. I just sit back and LMAO. I think everybody has a right to stupidity, but guys like birdie are just abusing the right. I'll give you kudos for trying to reason, but you are truly wasting your time with the majority...
OldPSUguy, the fire dept just cant run short like a desk job thats 9-5. Equiptment needs to be manned 100% 24 Hrs a day. If someone is sick or on vacation that position needs to be covered. You cant just say, well Capt Smith will finish his work when he gets back from vacation. Doesnt work that way. People on these boards are trying to compare apples to oranges. It is not your typical job. The best analogy I could use would be, lets just fly a commercial airliner with 1 pilot because the other is on vacation or sick. Its not safe, for the pilot or the passengers, and the public would outraged if this happened.
Firemen should work 8 or 12 hour shifts like everyone else. Then they could workout on their own time, sleep on their own time, shop on their own time, do charity work on their own time. Lets face it, you guys got away with way too much for way too long. You are costing other workers their jobs. Thanks
Since we live in a 24/7 town, why don't we have 3 shifts of firefighters that go home after a 8 hour stint ? 5 days a week just like all the "regular chumps". I mean this is certainly calling for going back to volunteer departments, where standby firefighters would get a stipend and be on call at home, real job or wherever. With modern communication technology, it might be more effective having them converge on a location
rather than come from a single point, We could man the stations with 2 man driver/dispatcher teams.
How many guys does it take to wash a firetruck anyway ?
I haven't seen the numbers, but I would be willing to stipulate that having dedicated crews results in faster response times overall. I am also willing to stipulate that having a longer shift results in fewer instances where a crew is held over because a call is initiated close to the end of shift.
But, if we accept those stipulations, then it should be granted that much of the time on shift is not engaged primarily with the task of actually handling a call or even in training. Therefore I say that traditional notions of OT should not be applied.
Sisolak is trying to deter away from his own thieving actions:
Sisolak was accused of pro-union bias in 2009. He chose a union contractor that bid $4.6 million more on a Las Vegas Beltway project than a non-union shop. Then he tried to discredit the non-union company by citing violations it incurred in multiple states.
A federal judge later ordered him and County Commissioner Tom Collins to not participate in awarding the bid. The case is now tied up in federal appeals court.
And he says he is about saving tax payer money:
Five years ago, Sisolak won $23.5 million in a lawsuit against the county for height restrictions imposed on 10 acres he owned in a low-fly zone near Las Vegas Boulevard and Warm Springs Road. He claimed the height limits diminished the land's value when he sold the parcel eight years ago, and that was an illegal taking of his property. (This was your tax dollars that were used to pay Sisolak)
CUT all their SALARIES....don't cut RANKS...they don't want to let loss with their numbers, fine !!
Cut ALL their salaries from the TOP to the BOTTOM. Who the hell are they to think they're above the rest of the state in these times. Give me a FREAKN BREAK!!!
Thank you Rory. Wipe dont you wipe that smile off your face. This is you and your commissions mess that you created. Poor teachers are facing layoffs and pay decreases while these worthless firefighters of yours will not concede to anything. And you want to be governor of Nevada state Rory? You can't even run Clark County. But Im sure seeing as that Nevada is home to some of the stupidest people in the nation you may get elected. God willing you won't nor will your republican counterpart Sandoval who can't stay in an appointed job more then 1-3 years..
It is so funny to read what solutions people have when they don't know what they are talking about. It is so laughable. Greatscott did you know when you put 25 cents into a gumball machine, a gumball comes out?
I'm starting to find all this whining and hating boring. Blah, blah. All your ranting and raving, won't change my mind. FF's ARE WORTH EVERY PENNY!
Now, I'm ready for a martini at mob museum (that I paid for as a taxpayer) to educate myself on crooks, theives, and murderes. Then, I will be properly schooled in becoming a fabulous politician. I can't wait until all that taxpayer money is my hands.....he he he.
Firefighter I at 55,000/year
Firefighter II at 90,000/year salary, these people are not really messing around when it comes to their pay. Clark County better set things straigth and show who is in charge here. Mind you 55,000/year salary is extravagant. It's not like they are fighting forest fires every month and what could Firefighter II do to merit a 90,000/year salary that Firefighter I cannot accomplish. No wonder the city and county is in a deep hole.
My fiance is a pediatrician, working at one of the valley hospitals. She spent 13 years training to be a doctor between class time and residency; during residency she worked a minimum of 80 hours a week.
As a non resideny physician, she makes 130,000 dollars a year (less than an engineer), and is salary exempt. Additionally she gets the added bonus of 300,000 dollars in student loans to pay back.
Perhaps people should take a step back and consider their priorities. Sure there will be a fireman available to take you to the hospital when you are injured, but with this inequity will there be a physician there to save your life upon arrival?
I don't fault firemen for getting every thin dime they can, it is human nature to want as much as possible, just as it is human nature for people to complain about those that have more. There comes a time when the desires of one group effect everyone else, including themselves. If that time comes when you need it most, the extra money won't buy you time to spend it.
I am not advocating wealth redistribution, or any other sort of Marxist agenda; only simple common sense. A position that requires very little formal education and some on the job training should never be in the same ballpark as some of the most intelligent, driven and hard working individuals that we can produce.
And if you are considering arguing that I wouldn't be able to handle a position as difficult as those filled by our firemen and women, I am a disabled veteran of the Marine Corps. I would argue that many fireman could not handle what I have already done.
Clark County Firefighters.....
You only need a GED to become a firefighter.
Usually over 10,000 people will apply for an open clark county firefighter position.
On avg earn over $180k a year in salary and benefits.
Included in that salary are longevity bonus checks that can be up to $30k a year.
They work 3 24-hours days and then are off 4 days.
Many have a side business or other job that they do in those 4 days.
On avg they retire at age 55 with pensions that pay over $100k a year in cash.
They get these high pensions by playing the sick/overtime game as they near retirement.
Their buddies call in sick so that work overtime to fill in. They do that 3 years in a row to bump their take home salaries to an all-time high.
Their pension is based on those 3 years of all-time overtime years.
When they retire, they cash in all the sick time that they accumlated which normally results in an over $100k to $500k one time check.
When they retire at 55, Clark County continues to pay for their private health insurance premiums even after they turn 65.
Most only go to a fire about once a month at most.
Rarely do any of those fires even remotely put theirs lives at risk.
Solution: Privatize the fire department and contract it out.
That way you get the same fireman at a reduced price. Their training will be put to work and we will be better off.
greed and arrogance are a sad combination.
Why not negotiate next time around that overtime has an expense cap. If overtime starts to reach that cap, then new recruites must be hired. I really think we are in this mess because those negotiating with the unions on our behalf, the taxpayer, has no backbone. Last time I checked the person with the checkbook holds the power.
hey tundra...
make no mistake skippy...
the only ones abusing the system are the firemen...
period...
end of story...
by the way...
we still would love to know what station you work out of...
what are you so afraid of buddy???
hmmm???
The only thing I see here is how selfish some people are; rather than take a cut in pay to save a co-worker's job, the FF's would rather see that co-worker lose their means and wind up homeless while they still have a means to live well.
Get rid of the FF unions, give the FF's a set base pay per month with no overtime allowed, and 30 days paid vacay a year. That should balance the state budget just fine.
Sgt Rock has let out the dirty little secret ff don't want anyone to know. Besides the OT these guys are getting, the OT they rack up before retirement is the key. Thats why these guys will fight tooth and nail to keep themselves deliberately understaffed and not give up the OT. Maybe Tundra or croc1 or one of these ff can come out and flatly deny that, instead of trying to make a glib comment. But it can't be denied because its the truth.
To Unsilent; OT does not go towards retirement. Just "Call back". I don't rely on OT or Call Back. Keep up the good fight and good luck.
To Unsilent, If you need me to provide you with any more facts, please do not hesitate. The SGT. can be a little misleading. Also, I would like to keep it civil if that is ok with you?..
hey tundra...
what's the matter fella...
i thought you firemen were brave...
and yet...
you seem to be scared to tell us where you work...
why is that???
make no mistake skippy...
birdie knows exactly why...
Tundra, I would never imply you do it buddy. We are friends, remember.....point is it happens and needs to be corrected. I would never be so simplistic to paint everyone with the same brush. But the abuses are going on in the department and it is time to correct them. Ff is a necessary position, however it should not be job paying what it is paying in vegas.
As for Tundra, I get the feeling in his heart of hearts he knows there are problems that need to be addressed. However, he didn't get into the job for the money and he doesn't like to see his once noble profession being bashed by the citizens..so he comes on to defend. I get it.
Who says the Mob isn't alive and well in Las Vegas. Now they drive fire trucks and wear turnouts.
I had a friend do some checking and it turns out that birdiedreamin ACTUALLY applied to the fire department in 2007 and wasn't smart enough to get by the aptitude test. So it appears that his/her rants are from a person that has a large chip on his/her shoulder. Take the comments from an individual that is hoping the county starts over in hiring firefigthers with a lower standard of testing so he/she can get on. Check for yourself and see the truth.
As a Clark County resident, I feel very lucky to have Steve Sisolak in office. Steve was not afraid to take on a bunch of thugs who have managed to bully county commissioners for years. For sake of Clark County, Steve has refused to bow to the firefighters' unreasonable and selfish demands. Steve is the only politician I know who is willing to put his career on the line in order to do what is right and expose the firefighters for what they are, a bunch of self-important, self-interested, petulant brats.
hey npbra...
that's just too damn funny...
hee hee hee...
you sir...
are full of crap...
and a fireman to boot i assume...
shocking...
shocking i tell...
hee hee hee...
man it is pathetic how these overpaid clowns will do and say anything...
anything...
pathetic...
truly pathetic...
Hey here is some info!!! Taking a promotion exam test WILL NOT HIRE any new personnel into the County fire department. It will only promote. Overtime will still exist! The difference is that the engineers will no longer be getting it. Firefighters on the other hand will be getting all kinds of overtime since the county refuses to hire more personnel. Sure the costs of overtime will come down a tad but it will still be a problem that the county needs to address. The fire department is understaffed already, .7 per 1000 of pop. when its supposed to be 1.3 per 1000. The County just wants to move money around instead of dealing with the real issue of hiring.
To Unsilent; I'm glad we are still friends, as I will sleep well tonight. Yes, I will agree that many problems exist within the department including overtime. I have never relied on it or never will. I think Mr. Sisolak has some valid points and it is his job to serve and correct what is wrong or gaming the system as he puts it. As I said, I would honestly like to sit down with someone that can have an adult conversation and agree or disagree . I would like to devulge my place of employment, but with individuals like birdie that is not possible he/she seriously needs some help.
So lets say you and I were sitting down at the table, fire away with some questions and will answer to the best of my ability. As far as defending what I do that is not going to happen. The fire service is and always will always be a noble profession. I took an oath to serve and treat everyone with integrity, even if all the hate continues.
It is the internet groupies and nut jobs like birdie that make most of the discussion a complete joke and without substance.
Who is in charge of managing the fire department? Who is in charge of budgeting, hiring, staffing, disciplining, firing, scheduling, .......................?????? By the way, there is no such thing as a union chief. There is, however the Chief of the fire department.....Has anyone seen that guy?
Here's some fun facts that might add some context to the magnitude of this problem...
According the the CC Annual Report, the CC budget for 09-10 is 6.4 billion dollars. Yup, BILLION dollars.
The Fire Department's Budget for the same time frame including, salaries/wages, benefits, services, supplies & capital outlay is 137 million dollars.
While Steve and Joe would have you believe that the FFs are responsible for all of the County's woes... in actuallity the Fire Department represents about 2 and one eighth percent of the County's annual budget. ONLY 2 PERCENT of the overall budget.
These figures are not something I heard, they are fact. They are freely available on the County's website and available for you to lookup as I did.
Please consider that maybe the reason Joe and Steve are focusing so much of their time and attention on the Fire Department is because the County and the Firefighters union are in negotiations.
Why hasn't Steve and Joe talked about the other 98% of the County Budget? Could there be some waste in the other 98%? Did the County spend $100,000 on ringtones for County cell phones last year? I'm not sure, I heard they did. Maybe someone could report on something like that?
In light of this, If you want to continue to say that FFs are overpaid, I will continue to tell you my solution...
Hire more firefighters. FF total compensation is a direct result of overtime(OT). OT is directly related to the understaffing. Secret arrangements for someone to call in sick and another person work OT only to be repaid in kind aren't even possible.
Promoting existing firefighters doesn't add any new bodies. Steve and Joe might have you believe that the County wants to solve overtime, but the Union won't let them. The County has the sole authority to recruit and hire new FF candidates. According to Article 33, section 7 of the firefighter's contract... "The County shall maintain an active list of Firefighter/Paramedic I eligibles, by conducting examinations for this classification on a regular basis"
Is the County planning to hire more firefighters? If you check the County's HR website there is not a job announcement for firefighters. So if they do it's not in the immediate future.
But to back track a bit, here's some more facts...
Base houlry rate for a CCFD Firefighter is $17.65/hour
Base hourly rate for a CCFD Engineer is $28.38/hour
Base hourly rate for a CCFD Captain is $31.92/hour
Base hourly rate for a first year CCSD teacher is $27.24/hour
Base hourly rate for a LVMPD Police Officer II is $29.36/hour
Still think FFs are overpaid? Maybe we're being paid fairly, but also being paid extra because we're asked by the County to do more with less. If you'd like to see firefighter total compensation reduced the answer is simple... Hire more firefighters.
Here we go again. Last time I posted on here I asked for FF's to state their 2009 base salary and how much OT they worked in 2009. Last time I checked not one FF was willing to state their 2009 total compensation. I wonder why?
All FF's know the system is designed for them to make extra money from OT. Base pay is working 12 days a month. Each extra shift a FF takes is $1000. Do the math. Work 5 "extra" shifts a month, that's 60 "extra" shifts in a year, that's $60k on top of base.
So why is there so much OT available? It has nothing to do with not having enough FF's. FF's close to retirement (within 5 years)start using their accumulated "sick" days. Younger FF's then take those shifts as OT -- at $1000 a shift.
If you are a FF I challenge you to refute that the system is purposefully designed so that FF's can make huge amounts of money from OT. Again, all I ask is that you state your 2009 base pay, 2009 total OT, and 2009 total compensation.
Jimmyhoffa, your right. I can't refute your claim that the system is designed so that FFs can make huge amounts from working OT.
In fact, if you went to any of the recent Commissioner's town hall meetings, over and over again the County's financial representative stated for all to hear that the County's official position when it came to OT is that it costs less to utilize someone who is already hired and work them overtime than it does to hire someone new. Hiring someone new requires numerous expenses beyond the new employees' salary. HR costs, training costs, salary, benefits, etc. etc. Somewhere in the County a bean counter ran the numbers and decided it is cheaper to use OT to staff vacant positions, that bean counter made their recommendations to the County management and they signed off on it as a staffing policy.
As I stated earlier, the County has the sole responsibility when it comes to hiring new firefighters. Anytime they want to hire new firefighters they can. Is there a current job announcement? No.
Let's talk about your extra OT shifts...
60 extra (24hr) shifts is 1440 hours. That's means for someone to actually work that much they are working their normal hours (2912 hrs annually), plus almost half the hours of an entire other firefighter position. That's 4352 hours. Compare that to the typical 9-5 worker that works 2080 hours in a year.
What about the difference between 9-5 base hours and a FF's base hours?
A FF works 832 hours more than the typical 9-5 worker's annual base hours. These 832 hours are paid at a base rate even though the typical worker would get overtime for these hours. That's right, I work 832 extra hours, before I am paid any OT. If a firefighter making $17.65/hr got paid overtime for these hours, the overtime portion would be $8.83/hr. $8.83 x 832 hours = $7,346.56. So because I am a Firefighter, my base salary gives up $7,346.56 every year of overtime, before I work a single hour of OT. I'm not complaining, I'm just providing some numbers for context.
Keep in mind if we don't volunteer for overtime, they force us to work under threat of penalty if we refuse the forced work.
There are a required number of seats to be filled everyday, and they are filled either through proper staffing, voluntary overtime, or forced overtime. Tomorrow in an effort to reduce their total compensation, every single person in the fire department could decide not to volunteer for OT, but there would be the exact same number of overtime vacancies filled, it would just be filled by people that were forced to work.
So based on the above, whether a FF works 60 voluntary OT shifts a year or 3 OT shifts a year. The Fire Department's OT expenditure will be the same until they hire new firefighters.
If you'd like to see FF's total compensation reduced it's simple...
Hire more firefighters.
Hey Jimmy,news flash!! The department IS understaffed and it is NOT the ff that control the process, it is the County. Some years ago there was rarely any OT to be had. A ff would work an ot shift once a year if at all. As the the County and department grew, more stations and employess were needed. The County with their infinite wisdom (which they received from the bean counters) calculated that it was more cost effective to pay an employee to work OT than to hire additional manpower. It's all a political tool that is being used right now to fuel the mob! Do you really think anyone in a political position or anyone up for some kind of seat is going to share all relevant information! Of course not! If the County really has a problem with OT then why don't they hire!!! There hasn't been a hiring test in over 3 yrs. Tests are regularly done every 2 years. Now they want to do an Engineers test (a small bandaid) early just to save a little money instead of addressing the real issue of hiring more employees. That will just create more overtime for ff's. Do you think they really care about the overtime issue?
By the way BIRDIE it is clear from this post and others that you are clueless. You are right, firemen are not rocket scientists but how is it that out of 2800 people that took a simple civil service exam only 420 people even passed with the required score to continue in the hiring process. After a physical test, an interview, background and psych tests, only 120 make it on the hire list. If it is so freaking easy could someone as educated as you make it? I'd say you might have a 4% chance. Maybe....
Has anyone seen the Chief of the fire department? Could he be under a rock? Hiding in the commissioners' closets? Chief? Hello??? Leadership, please!!!
Let's see if Sisolak can pass the engineers test without time to prepare for it, let alone get signed-off on all of the pre-requisites with short notice. Once again the county had their head where it is dark and didn't plan for these vacancies. Now, they expect the FD to jump though hoops because they can't plan or figure out what they want. Maybe close the fire department and put all of the money into the monrail. Right Rory & Sisolak? Sisolak has no idea what firefighters do. His ignorance could fill volumes. Like when he complained that he didn't know that firefighters did the bood drive for jerry's kids on duty. Duh, they have been doing it for like 40 years! Get a clue dude. Sisolak probably thinks that an engineer drives the choo-choo. That is why he can't figure out what they do. Sisolak like choo-choos!