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Commissioner Susan Brager says with Clark County facing possible layoffs, longevity pay “is something we should be investigating.”
Thursday, Dec. 10, 2009 | 2 a.m.
Related Document
- Report shows Clark County employees who earn longevity pay, including their total pay, overtime and other allowances.
- Excel spreadsheet
Reader poll
Thom Reilly, shown as Clark County manager in 2006, says county employee unions have only agreed to lessen their salary increases.
Steve Sisolak
Sun Archives
Clark County employees have some of the best jobs in the state in terms of pay and benefits. And yet on top of their relatively high base pay and other raises, thousands get paid annual bonuses as an incentive to remain on the county’s payroll.
The validity of the county’s “longevity pay” has been questionable for years, but in these days of budget slashing and layoffs, it is starting to look ludicrous to some county commissioners.
The reason: In the fiscal year that ended June 30, the longevity pay and its associated costs totaled $44 million.
Even one of the least outspoken commissioners, Susan Brager, said this week that with commissioners trying to stave off cuts in public service and facing “the prospect now of laying off people,” longevity pay “is something we should be investigating.”
This year has arguably been among the toughest in the county’s 100-year history. But next fiscal year might be even worse. The county is projecting a tax revenue shortfall of about $120 million. With an average yearly salary-and-benefits package of about $90,000 per employee, it would have to lay off about 1,400 people to make up that shortfall.
Getting rid of longevity pay would do much to cut that deficit.
Employees in fiscal 2009 received direct longevity pay bonuses totaling $34.6 million — $9.1 million to University Medical Center employees and $25.5 million to other county employees.
But longevity pay costs the county more than just what shows up in the regular pay portion of employees’ checks because it forces increased payments to those employees’ retirement funds too. Last year, that amounted to about $7.5 million. It also ratchets up overtime payments, by $2 million last year.
Tax revenue is used to cover most, but not all of the bills for longevity pay. All payments to retirement accounts are made by taxpayers. But of the $25.5 million spent on the direct bonus money, $8.5 million comes from fees the county charges for airport use, inspections and other services. Also, UMC’s expenses, including salaries, are supposed to be covered by fees for services. The county, however, kicks in tens of millions each year to cover its budget deficits.
Commissioners, who are scrutinizing contracts more carefully and seeking ways to save money to reduce the number of layoffs, take little consolation in fees covering some of the longevity pay tab.
“There are so many of these things — cost-of-living raises, step increase, merit raises, longevity bonuses, whatever you want to call them, you have to start asking: For what?” Commissioner Steve Sisolak said. “I talk to people in the private sector who are just happy to keep their jobs, and we’re giving all this money away. We have got to put a tighter rein on this. The county has to get a handle on it.”
No cap on longevity pay
That’s just what Thom Reilly tried to do when he was county manager in the early 2000s. Now a professor of social work at San Diego State University, Reilly has written academic papers about public employee benefits.
“The argument used to be, ‘Well, we can’t pay you overtime, but if you stay with us, we have this longevity pay,’ ” Reilly said. “Now, of course, the public sector outpaces the private even in wages. Then they have these benefits and it further exacerbates the difference with private sector.”
Las Vegas also makes longevity payments to some of its employees. Unlike the county, though, the city’s policy differentiates between categories of employees, differs by years of required employment, does not include elected officials and is capped at 10 percent of base pay.
Clark County has no longevity pay cap, and elected officials — including commissioners — get 2 percent of their base pay added on each year after four years in office. Commissioners cannot receive longevity pay greater than 20 percent of their base pay.
“Commissioners should not be getting longevity pay at all,” Sisolak said. “Why would we?”
Reilly said he eliminated longevity pay for new management hires after June 2002 and replaced it with performance-based incentives. It forced some county employees to do some fast maneuvering.
“That’s why the (county’s lawyers) unionized,” Reilly said, chuckling.
Rank-and-file employees still get the perk, however. The county's employee contract says that employees working as of Oct. 15, 1991, were eligible for longevity pay after five years of employment. After that date, employees had to work eight years to become eligible. Longevity pay is calculated at the rate of 0.57 percent per year, then multiplied by the number of years of employment.
A county employee making $100,000 after eight years would get $4,560 extra in her ninth year.
By the numbers
The Las Vegas Sun obtained the names and amounts of longevity payments to county employees through an open records request. County staff did not provide the figures for UMC employees in time for this story, however.
Not counting UMC workers, 3,533 county employees received longevity pay in fiscal 2009, which ended June 30. The median payment was $5,474. The greatest payment went to Donald O’Shaughnessy, a Clark County Fire Department battalion chief employed since February 1976. In fiscal 2008 his longevity pay totaled $40,835.95. He also received overtime payments of $61,314 bringing his total pay that year to $224,442. The next highest was also a Fire Department employee, Danny Ganier, who received $40,229.58 in longevity pay; his pay that year totaled $134,156.66. Nine of the top 10 longevity pay recipients worked in the Fire Department. In just one year, those 10 people took home a total of $340,770 in longevity pay.
Those bonuses alone are close to the median and average salaries in Clark County that year. The American Community Survey reported that the median household income in Clark County was $59,696. The Labor Department reported the average private sector salary was $42,000.
Longevity pay in the private sector, Reilly noted, is almost unheard of.
Above average pay
On the other hand, the relatively high pay of local government employees in Nevada is well known. In June 2008 a study commissioned by the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce reported Nevada’s local government workers (of which Clark County’s constitute a lion’s share) are paid 31 percent more than the national average for local government workers. (It also found, however, that Nevada had the nation’s fewest number of government employees per capita.) Another chamber study last summer found that in Nevada, the average government employee was paid 28 percent more than the average private-sector employee in a similar job.
Sisolak said firefighters keep showing up at the top of the county’s highest paid lists because they have “had their way” with the county since the 9/11 attacks.
“They were viewed as untouchable, so no one (in county administration) even contemplated saying no to anything they asked for,” said Sisolak, who was elected in November 2008.
But service employees, many of whom work for UMC, also take a big chunk of those longevity payments.
Reilly remembers talking informally in 2006 to representatives of the Service Employees International Union, which today represents 9,500 county workers, about slowly weaning them off longevity pay. He chuckles in recalling how union officials said they would rather see layoffs instead of pay decreases.
“They said it was going to be a holy war,” he added.
A union representative did not return a call for comment.
Times are much different, and much worse economically than just three years ago. Elected officials are beginning to realize that local government employees have been largely unaffected by the recession, Reilly said. Public employees are protected by longevity pay and other “defined benefits” guaranteed in many union contracts.
In Clark County, Reilly said of unions, “the only concessions that have been made are to reduce the amount of their salary increases. Consider that in light of the wage cuts that people are experiencing elsewhere.”
In the long term, Reilly said, commissioners need the courage to push the Legislature to pass laws to allow collective bargaining on anything except wages. He also recommends that Nevada’s laws be changed to open bargaining sessions to the public.
In the short term, negotiations with the county firefighters union begin early next year. The county agreed not to touch longevity pay for service employees union members until 2011 after the union made concessions in early 2009.
Clark County’s commissioners are all Democrats, the party that traditionally supports unions, but Sisolak said the county will have to make a case and, if needed, take a stand at those negotiations “because this is just getting ridiculous.”
Sun reporter Alex Richards contributed to this story.
Every article on high pay in the government sector seems to show firemen with ridiculous payroll packages. When will the elected officials admit they have given into pressure from these unions and revamp the salary and benefit packages for these departments and make them realistic for the work done.
Time for a REALITY check people.....
YES, WELL TOO BAD JOE SCHOENMANN DIDNT REPORT WHAT THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS & MANAGERS MAKE, NOT TO MENTION WHAT THEY PAY THEIR SECRETARIES. WHY DOES RORY REID NEED A SECREARY WHO MAKES 100K A YEAR WHEN HE IS THERE 6 DAYS A MONTH? NOT TO MENTION THE 'SUPPORT STAFF' TO EACH COMMISIONER.
What a bunch of hypocrytes! Sisolak is new. Lets hope he has the courage to expose the fraud on the 6th floor for what it really is....
I'D RATHER HAVE MY TAX DOLLARS GOING TO PUBLIC SERVICES.
Why wont the Sun take a closer look at Bragers , Reid or Weeklys salaries and how much time they actually spend at the office? They get paid a $1,000 an hour!!!!
Why has the county not looked into the 4 ten work week that has worked in utah to also save money ?
Interesting that the same commissioners that are so concerned about the $120 million budget shortfall are willing to continue to let Las Vegas Paving use the County DOT budget as an bottomless ATM machine. This is the same County Commission that did their level best to award Las Vegas Paving a contract that was $4.6 million higher than the lowest qualified bid - then cancel the bid when they get stopped by the courts. Then the Commission tries to release the money under the guise of another CDOT project that will go to - guess who - Las Vegas Paving, apparently regardless of cost. What a great position for Las Vegas Paving to be in, to be in to be able to win $100 million plus competitive bids even when you're not competitive by pulling in political favors.
It appears that fiscal responsibility by the County is a goal that wavers depending on which Union the commissioners will need to pander to the most come the next election.
How about Sisolak and the rest of the local politicians stop making broad, general statements about all county/city employees. There may be some who are fortunate enough to have not been affected by the recession, but that is not everyone. Jobs have already been cut, hours have been decreased, and concessions have already been made and approved (at least on the city level) that are monetary. The majority of government workers are willing to make sacrifices and it is irresponsible for individuals to make comments stating the opposite. In addition, it is quite popular to demand a pound of flesh from a government worker, blame them for all of the government financial woes, and completely ignorning the fact that they come in everday and are doing their jobs with less staff, less time, less pay, and less recognition, just like everyone else. If you want to get mad, get mad at the upper level officials who made the financial decisions for their pet capital projects, ward/district parties, and not doing their due diligence from the beginnning. The regular rank and file employees are not the ones making the big decisions, they are the ones providing services to tax payers, the elected officials, and other employees on a daily basis. Furthermore, if this were a private sector contract issue, it would be not be the hot topic of the day. If this were a private business contract, there wouldn't be this discussion. However, since it is the contract of a public employee, it is most popular to rip to shreads. When a contract is agreed to, that is what is expected to occur. How often can one go and demand for a contract they signed to re-negotiated because they decided they didn't like it? Not often and it wouldn't hold up in court either. Government officials had their chance to have their input when contract negotiations took place, they had their chance to work on changes, but they didn't, and now they want to paint their own employees in a negative light because they didn't do the job they should have done in the beginning. Stop trying to tar and feather the government worker for having a contract that the elected officials and upper level administration agreed to. Take your pitchforks and torches to the top and leave the average employees alone.
The spreadsheet "related document" (showing all employees who get longevity pay) is in .xls (Microsoft Excel) format. Any chance we can get that in a .pdf so those of us who use Macs can review it?
A couple of facts:
1. County empolyees did not cause this economic holocaust and, as popular and easy a target as they may be, should not be continuously hammered by SFB Commissioners and the public over their "exorbitant" benefits.
2. George Stevens told the Committee on Community Priorities this week that the current 70 million dollar deficit was due entirely to the costs of running UMC. So, you don't have to be a genius to understand that if you don't get a handle on UMC, you can lay off all the county employees and still run a huge deficit.
3. If Reilly was so fired up about the SEIU contract, why is it he didn't do squat about it.
What's that old saying, something talks and money walks. Thom, another vetted insider, has no room to talk.
Dasher2134- You obviously know nothing about economics. The Construction Unions (not Fire and Teachers) will be able to restore American middle class. I am a conservative. I don't want my tax dollars going to pedophiles who don't pay their taxes.
The Commissioners made the right call on that one.
This is just another example of how government fleeces the tax payers. In these depression times, this kind of crap is going to fall under the spotlight, and those who perpetrate these fiscal crimes should be removed immediately from office, and the taxpayers should be reimbursed. Keep digging folks, there's a lot more of this BS going on...
Longevity bonus? Where do I sign up?
Hi Joan, here is a link to a PDF that you requested. The report shows Clark County employees who earn longevity pay, including their total pay, overtime and other allowances.
http://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/...
"the average government employee was paid 28 percent more than the average private-sector employee in a similar job."
"Sisolak said firefighters keep showing up at the top of the county's highest paid lists because they have "had their way" with the county since the 9/11 attacks."
"They were viewed as untouchable, so no one (in county administration) even contemplated saying no to anything they asked for," said Sisolak, who was elected in November 2008."
"Service employees, many of whom work for UMC, also take a big chunk of those longevity payments."
"Reilly remembers talking informally in 2006 to representatives of the Service Employees International Union, which today represents 9,500 county workers, about slowly weaning them off longevity pay. He chuckles in recalling how union officials said they would rather see layoffs instead of pay decreases.
"They said it was going to be a holy war," he added."
A union representative did not return a call for comment.
Need no further than look at the numbers for Clark County.
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
For all state, county and city employees
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/al...
Well, what are the commissioners going to do about it? Much of this started with Erin Kenny,former convicted county commissioner. The state law forbids the county workers to strike, and they could'nt get a job like this ,anyway. Fire and Police feel they can control the election by endorsing certain candidates. What are there 3,000 county wide? These guys do the same thing with the state retirement. The cops want to retire early and work with the CCSD police and hike the pay scale. Well commisioners, when you pay more for longevity than is payed to hire a teacher something is wrong. Oh, we have'nt factored in the overtime.
Longevity pay for firefighters and others is insane--this at the same time that local governments are trying to get the longest-serving firefighters to retire. Clearly local government was asleep at the bargaining switch for too long. I know that the unions threaten a holy war and arbitration if local government resists anything that they demand--let's call their bluff and see what happens. If the firefighters think they can make more money in the private sector then let them go to these allegedly greener pastures. And let's face it, the barriers to entry in this profession are very low--a high school degree and and EMT certificate. People need to contact their local elected officials before the bargaining begins early next year.
GrandmaCrabby,
Thanks for continuing to ask intelligent questions and for posting your old-fashioned common sense. Most folks that post here are just venting their spleens, and open their mouths before their brains are engaged.
I work in local government. i am fearful that i will lose my job soon from the looming cuts. i dont get longevity, i get paid far less then my same position in the private sector but i like my job because it's steady and i only have to work 4 days a week. I also do a great job. The Sad part is that i will probably get laid off, even though there are at least 10 people that i outwork that get paid longevity and at least 30% more in salary and i do twice as much work as them. The people that get laid off need to be the higher paid people that dont do anything and there are plenty of those. Maybe we need to cut all the longevity pay, make the firefighters cut 10% of their pay and make the police take a 10% cut as well. Run those numbers and you will see that we would run a surplus this year and just barely be under budget for next year.
Another problem is everything takes to long to figure out. The problem is now but all we hear about is how they are going to address it in 2011 or 2012 when the contracts are up... NOOOOO WE MUST ACT NOW!!!! This is crazy!!! Cut back on the highest paid NOW... anyone with over 25 years should be forced into retirement and that right there would probably save the county all the money they need to save. Instead i feel like all the people making the big bucks will cut the jobs of those that really really need them to put a roof over their heads and food on their tables. For every "manager's" salary would employ 2 to 3 regular employees at least. so instead of cutting 1400 employees, just cut 466 management positions. They make at LEAST 100k a year with 466 that would be a savings of $46 MILLION plus cutting the $44 Million in Longevity that would total $90 Million right off the top. Add in a 10% cut to the police and fire and their is our budget shortfall for next year. We would actually run a SURPLUS next year and be able to keep MOST of all public services in tact. hmmmm... now wasnt that easy??? i'll probably get fired for this comment even though i showed how easy it would be to solve this economic crunch. whatever
Time for competitive sourcing. If the government has a service it must provide to the people, bid that service out. Allow private sector companies to bid against current government union workers to provide the service. The private company or the government agency ONLY EARN what their bid is worth, nothing more.
If the government sector can't compete, they don't win, their jobs are cut, we save money and the service is still provided.
Is it any wonder that current CCSD Trustees Jansion, Edwards, Moulon and Miller are gleefully eyeing the possibility of amove up in rank to a county or city commissioner job? Imagine the increased pay scale, retirement perks and the wonderful bonuses for 'longevity pay.' Greed knows no boundaries and has no morality to it.
I cannot imagine any one of the current CCSD trustees being qualified for another county or city post let alone any benefit they might provide to the taxpayers of this county. What have they done as school trustees that warrants another political job by vote of the people?
Let's see: Have they hired more certified teachers for the classrooms, or more administrators to wander the schools and hallways? Do some schools have more substitute teachers than full time certified teachers in its classrooms?Has discipline been improved overall in the CCSD?
Have the drop out rates for CCSD schools deminished or have they increased expotentially? Have high school graduation rates gone up or decreased during their tenure? Do our students excell on standardized state exams or are they failing at a miserable rate?
Do student in every school and class have adequate textbooks to use at home, a plentiful supply of paper, pencils and other consumable supplies? Are class sizes in all courses at a reasonable level for teachers to individualize more of the instruction? Are teachers allowed to be creative, exercise initiative and be inventive in developing meaningful lessons or are they mandated to follow mundane dull, uninspring lessons? Do the lessons teachers are allowe to teach challenge the brightest students and encourage excellence from all students regardless of learning abilities or disabilities?
Does the CCSD encourage strong and high academic standards from is students or does the minimum effort become the maximum expected from all students? How many of our students are successful in their first year of college? How many of our Millenium Scholars must take remedial math, English, science or other courses as freshmen in college?
From answers to the above you decide if any trustee is worthy of election to another political job repesenting you?
Good Luck!
The County management should lead by example and cut longevity pay for management level employees. The County will then be in a much better position to ask for this concession from union employees. If such a cut causes a few highly paid, long-term employees to quit because of the impact on their retirement pay, all the better for everyone.
Union employees need to thing about longevity pay vs. jobs when they are electing their representatives. If the union employees only elect long-time employees to speak for them at the table, they will likely find that longevity stays while jobs are cut. The newer employees (post-2002) need to make sure that they are represented.
Grandmacrabby and gmag, Nevada's county employees are also some of the best paid in the nation. I think we rank 5th for county employee pay. State worker pay is in the top half as well, maybe even in the top 20.
It could be the case that we have more efficient government workers who deserve the higher pay. Or it could be that there is no correlation between the pay and the amount of work being done by government workers. There is also no statistical correlation between the state's population size and the per capita size of the government workforce -- so no diseconomy of scale (or economy of scale).
" If state governments were taking advantage of economies of scale, we should see more populous states spending less per resident and employing smaller bureaucracies as a percentage of population.
A simple regression analysis demonstrates, however, that a state's population size and its spending per resident have no statistically significant relationship. Furthermore, the relationship between a state's size and the size of its bureaucracy as a percentage of population is weak -- the alleged economies-of-scale advantage would require a state to add 2.5 billion residents in order to reduce its "state employees as a percentage of total population" by just one percentage point. That's hardly an economies-of-scale advantage.
Governments rarely take advantage of economies of scale, because they aren't under the same market pressures private companies face. Lacking strong incentives, they are highly inefficient.
For example, everyone agrees public schools have far more students per teacher than do private schools. Since there are more students per teacher in public schools, economies of scale would suggest public schools are cheaper per student. Not so. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, in 2004 the average private-school tuition nationwide was just $6,600, while the average per-pupil cost at public schools (excluding capital outlays, debt payment and teacher pensions) topped $8,900.
Governments face too few incentives to be efficient or accountable, let alone to conserve tax dollars. All Nevadans -- liberal, conservative, socialist or libertarian -- should be concerned about how efficiently and competently policymakers spend our money.
Nevada doesn't need tax hikes. We simply need more efficient, accountable and competent governance."
http://npri.org/publications/government-...
Surprise, surprise: firefighters are at the top of the list for longevity pay. What a taxpayer rip off. You want a great job, and have minimal skills and education? Join the fire department.
lsvreader,you forgot to mention ; kick someone in the head over a b-ball game,do 30 days in the clink , get out and still have your $194k a year cush-ol-a job waiting for 'ya.
...it would seem that we have discovered the cause of inflated home prices...never seen anything like it...our self-inflicted doom continues...
the CC Commissioners are paid ~ $60K/yr....all for part-time work?!?!?! really...I'd like full benfits for part-time work and get paid a full-time salary.
CORRECTION OF ERROR: The following contains an error. It should be Mason and not Miller in the following statement of my last comment above:
"Is it any wonder that current CCSD Trustees Jansion, Edwards, Moulon and Miller are gleefully eyeing the possibility of amove up in rank to a county or city commissioner job?"
Chris Cross
1. Your pedophile comment regarding Fisher was nailed in court as a lie.
2. Your tax issue regarding Fisher was nailed in court as a lie.
Fisher has completed the largest NDOT project in history; the head of the Nevada Department of Transportation actually spoke on Fisher's behalf. The state DOT departments of Arizona, Texas, California and Nevada all consider Fisher supremely qualified, as they have awarded and continue to award them hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts. But then these DOT departments don't have union bosses prepping the decision makers the way the unions here met with the County Commissioners on this job before they award contracts, either.
Watching the Clark County Commission trying to attack Fisher on a character level is like signing up for a seminar from Tigers Woods on marital fidelity, with about the same level of credibility.
At a time when jobs are so hard to come by, forgive me if I don't believe that a $4.6 million dollar donation to Las Vegas Paving isn't a good use of taxpayer money.
I dont know about the rest of the readers, but our bonus programs at my job were eliminated last year. I can't imagine why a government employee would ever get a bonus. Everyone knows government jobs are status quo jobs. They rarely ever excel. I mean have you ever been in a government office and seen a worker hussle or move quickly? I know I haven't.
Thank you Tim Richardson for providing such PDF.
It clearly shows that most of the highest paid firefighters that forever milk the system resides in Laughlin, 7K population!
It also shows [Jacki Brady] the Laughlin Town Manager [appointed by Woodbury in 1993] who now rakes in $133K yearly with $15K longevity, and Brady's land development staff [Deborah Murray & JoElle Hurns] who now [appointed by Woodbury] racket another $200K yearly!
It is time Mr. Sisolak to pull the plug on such gov parasytes flocking in Laughlin.
However, such longevity pay is elementary to the substantive facts in Laughlin:
1. Since appointed CC Commissioner in 1981, Woodbury [a/k/a CRC Trustee] has let Robert Bilbray & Don Laughlin's private corporations embezzel 6,000 acres from the State Colorado River Commission. The assessor's record shows that virtually all commercial & residentual mortgages in Laughlin, are paid to RB Properties, South Pointe Properties (etc), with escrow taxes paid to the State Ft. Mohave Fund.
2. In 2007, Assemblyman Joe Hardy enacted the law to transfer the remaining 9,000 acres from CRC, into the County [District A], and transfer such State tax fund into the County tax fund.
3. Today, Jacki Brady falsely documents that she has the authority to sell, lease and develop such 9,000 acres to anybody she desires! She also falsely documents that she has authority to appropriate such County tax fund into whoever's pocket that she may desire!
Commissioner Sisolak, please act upon the criminal issues, notwihstanding such civil [longevity] issue.
This is enough to make my stomach turn. There are a few employees in public service that excel at their jobs, but it is a small minority. There are unqualified, uneducated public employees in positions that require a college degree in Clark County - particularly in the planning and development departments. Clerical level employees get promoted into planning and engineering positions on a regular basis. They have a department head in Comprehensive Planning who lacks any formal education, yet the job requires a masters degree. Go figure.
I have 'Longevity pay' , what a crock . If they don't like it,there's the door!!
People check out the web site Tim Richardson put on. It's a eye opener.There is NO fiscal problem in Las Vegas...not when you can pay over $61,000 in OVERTIME alone to one single person. Go ahead, look......shaving $60 million off the budget will be SO SO easy.....This is a total disgrace to everyone who has to pay this in their taxes a total disgrace.
Criminal -- and to think there remains those still ignorant enough to be duped into supporting additional theft through higher/additional tax proposals.
"Mankind is more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." T. Jefferson
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Beautiful building to work in on the outside anyway.
Yeah, fire department employees get a lot of pampering. Our local fire chief weighs about 350 pounds, his wife is the Housing Director at the Cloud County Community College. She very proudly stated that she had put herself through college and had obtained her bs on-line at Washburn University and the courses were all paid for by the home of the Thunderbirds.
Because the jobs performed by the public and private employees are in many cases completely different, comparing the average pay for all private sector jobs to the average pay for all public sector jobs is completely ludicrous and serves no purpose.
This article would be a lot more informative if it compared similarly situated professionals in the public sector with the private sector. For example, how much does a nurse practitioner at UMC make compared to a nurse practitioner with similar skill and experience at Summerlin? Or what does a public sector attorney with x training and y experience compare to an attorney with same training and experience in the public sector? That would be a far more germaine comparison than comparing all public jobs to all private jobs.
Based on my experience, you will find that similarly situated private professionals are paid much more than their public sector counterparts.
People say that the "government fleeces the taxpayer" or "the public worker doesn't deserve their jobs and their pay" just about every day. What else do our tax dollars pay for? Every time we buy something, our tax dollars are paying for the people who own the business, the casino owners, who by the way, are far wealthier than the average public employee, and many of your own employers. Just because public workers are employed by state and local governments, does it mean that our tax dollars are going to waste? I admit that their are a number of overpaid administrators that come in and work an hour or two, and the leave to spend their day getting paid. However, when I worked in the private sector I saw the same almost every day. Aren't our tax dollars also going to waste in that situation? Most of the public workers, the rank and file folks, don't deserve to be lumped into the "all public employees are bad" category. Be reasonable as many of these people serve the public, and some not such a great selection of public, every day.
HC,
Sometimes comparing government to private sector jobs is ludicrous simply because the existence of the government job itself is ludicrous. Example, why have 6 different people to approve purchase requests at the school district? Why have energy use monitors patrol public schools? There is a cheaper way to address this issue. Wal-Mart doesn't have 6 people sitting in Bentonville Arkansas reviewing the purchase requests from a store in Cupcake Kansas. The store in Cupcake uses its own revenue to make its own purchases while the central office gets a small cut of the profits of each store across the nation. It doesn't micromanage every single store. Government, however, creates positions to needlessly micromanage every single public school.
Crabby,
Yes high firefighter salaries do skew the average upward. So does the $X million a year salary of Brian Greenspun in the private sector. I'm willing to bet the public sectors median salary is still higher than the private sector. With benefits I bet the disparity is even larger.
I'm also not convinced that having the lowest government workers per capita is necessarily an amazing thing. It could very well be the case that we have a near optimal number of government employees while most other states have far too many. In other words, many other states may simply be wasting money employing adults in government jobs just for the sake of creating government jobs -- not that those jobs add any real value to the society. Given the fact that we see no economy of scale advantage with larger states, this is most likely what is occurring.
It is ridiculous. They are already paid in excess of comparable private sector jobs. Given this the added benefits are ridiculous. Taxpayer money should be used more wisely and efficiently. Longevity pay is ultra ridiculous - if a county employee doesn't want the job there is someone who does. Noone is that irreplaceable - and if they are it should be the exception and a persuasive case should have to be made why this person is so invaluable.
thisisnuts...you already know this, but each individual can choose whether or not to purchase goods/services from a company in the private sector. In the public sector, 2 of you can tell the 1 of me how we're spending our money, and I really have no choice in the matter.
To the person asking to compare public/private sector workers...that's very tough. Example...You can't compare a defense attorney in the private sector with a public defender. The # of hours logged is completely different. So the comparison really would require you to get down to that level of detail.
Philosophically, I'm opposed to unions. I've seen the negative effects (squashing innovation, rewarding laziness/complacency, etc.) and I think they FAR outweigh the benefits. We have laws that protect workers from illegal practices. These "contracts" are ridiculous. Both parties that signed the deal are at fault, as are we for voting for them or the person that appointed/hired them. The population as a whole needs to pay closer attention to these politicians and the good ol' boy network that allows them to steal from the taxpayers.
How some of these people make what they do while our education system is in shambles, is beyond me. Pay the good teachers more and get rid of the dead weight.
Some of these salaries are unbelievable. You guys pay a painter or a skilled trader worker for the Airport base pay of $66k and a long bonus ~$4k? Man, that is outrageous. So glad I'm not paying taxes to support any of those salaries.
I would be willing to bet if you brought in a corporate turnaround specialist, s/he would find a plethora of jobs that could be eliminated without anyone noticing the absence. I would be willing to bet my home on it!
I would hope someone with the proper authority would step up and reign in this government waste.
Longevity pay was created to try and keep employees from leaving the public job for a better paying private one once they were trained and had experience.
(This doesn't speak to why public employees that do not have a private counterpart receive this pay.)
In my profession the private salary always outpaces public. When times were good we couldn't find new hires in-state because of the huge disparity between the two salaries. Now that times are lean we shouldn't punish those who have invested in a public servant - delayed gratification mentality.
dasher- a little definsive are we?
you are not referring to that same "court" ruling that was later ruled as unjustified are you?
I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT JM IS A WOMANIZER. NO DOUBT, HE AND HIS KIN HAVE FALLEN OFF THE SAME APPLE TREE. YOUD BE AMAZED AT WHAT FORMER EMPLOYEES TELL THEIR NEW EMPLOYERS.
so spare us the intelligent defense.
I love the way everyone wants to blame the lazy overpaid government worker for everything from their spoiled babies in public school to the downturn of the economy. It's really funny how quick things can change. It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that three years ago many were out flipping houses, obtaining double and triple mortgages, buying cars, toys and generally spending like there was no tomorrow. You thought it would never end. Pockets full of tips, all the overtime construction companies could give out, all the money we could make and spend Woo Hoo! Now it's Boo Hoo.
I for one didn't buy a bigger house, I didn't buy three suv's for my kids. What I did do was sit on interview boards for a local government and watch people laugh at me when I explained the starting salary and compensation. Probably some of the same people that are whining right in this blog. You see most of them didn't want to start at the bottom and take a pay cut. They were too spoiled they wanted top pay, top benefits right away. They were making too much at casinos, working construction or anywhere else that was raking in the money at the time. Most of you will never know the real story that most of the municipal workers are hard working and the ones that have some tenure probably had to work two jobs to make ends meet once they decided to go into government. Most are not overpaid. Many make a living wage. Some at the bottom do not. It's really not fair to say we are ALL overpaid unless you have been where we have been. Maybe better paid than you right now in this moment but, over a career on average you would be wrong.
Phargo, I understand the way the pdf looks but the average is skewed. Hence the words - most,many and all.It's like saying all NBA players are thugs or all of a certain race are lazy! I know a hotel pool atendants that made 60 K and worked only seven months. Is that right? Did they deserve it? I don't know. I do know a 44K janitor took 8-10 years to get to that pay and started at probably 18k. How much did the pool attendant make in those 10yrs or the Valet parker? Valet parkers wouldn't tell you what they make just in case you might be IRS. It's easy to attack us because there is disclosure.
The other day we had a link on another "pay cut" article that showed all the nevada state workers salaries and of the top 300 nearly 50% firemen making over 200k. how can 150 fire dept people be making 200 freakn k a year---there is no budget problem at all---there is a serious pay and accountability problem. Just got done shopping for clothes and see the big 8.1% sales tax taking all my money and giving to these overpaid rats soaking the public. Im making 40% less money this year do to the economy and now i find all these people still getting pay raises while we pay even more taxes. time for new management of these workers!
True! Corruption exists & is doing summersalts in BOTH the private & public sectors.
However, when the private & public sectors are BOTH documented into a conspiracy [as I declared above; on public record], is it time for criminal prosecution on BOTH the private & public individuals robbing u.s. blind???
Well now, Clark County pays its public pretenders to defend ALL such private & public individuals, under color of law & Clark County's interest!
However, such interest in the Clark County status quo is a changing, & I may ask Commissioner Sisolak to testify, on 9th Circuit remand into federal district court, upon such public lands & $1/4 Billion appropriations that Woodbury embezzled into the Bilbray/Laughlin private corporations.
Errin Kenny & the other commissioners was merely a political fiasco to undermine Woodbury's perpetual extortion, which the local law enforcement fell for, hook, line & sinker!
DesertLandEntryman
Good luck with your lawsuit. If anyone will stand up to the corruption and the thieves like Woodbury and Kenny it is him.
Why is he the only one willing to take on the firefighters? These guys are an embarrassment. A bunch of big egos who spend the day in the gym and work out at our expense. The time is now to finally reign these salaries in.
I hope the citizens start screaming about this blatant disregard for the public good by the firefighters union. Not all of them are bad, their representation is what is so pathetic
Public Attorneys, docs, and engineers all make less than their counterparts in the private sector. Ask any recruiter and they will confirm this.
Just something to remember. Let's say that 75% of a government's revenue goes to personnel both salary and various benefits. Salaries go to pay for groceries, homes, clothes, toys and all the other things that the private sector benefits from. Even the benefits such as health insurance ultimately pays for more doctors and nurses which in turn requires more office buildings, which then requires more construction, which then requires more construction workers and on and on.
Obviously taxes should not be excessive for all those who are not government employees, because we all need to buy food, clothes and toys too. However, to simplify economics and broadly make statements about what government contributes or does not to the economy is more than a little naive. Sadly most who comment here are likely full of knowledge from their quality time in front of the TV listening to the most popular talking head. Get out and read some real books on economics instead of listening to 30 second sound bites.
UNLVGrad,
You are not solution, but another grandstander.
UNLV is another corrupt institution finanaced by MY money, from Reid's "Desert Research" & other bureaucracies funded by such blood money!
I give up! ALL past politicians have raped Nevada citizens into holes of no recource. Like Soddom & Gamorah, your rain is coming!
Please, get out [like me], before you are destroyed.
Beem me up Scottie, there's NO intellegent life upon this belated planet of NO recource.
I would like to make a suggestion. This is a suggestion in which it can be proven that Nevada would save almost $1,000,000.00 in a very short period of time. I am suggesting that the Nevada Transportation Authority and the Taxicab Authority both be abolished and merged into the Department of Public Safety.
These two agencies are rife with inefficiencies that cause a wasting of precious resources. They both enforce violations of Nevada Revised Statute 706 (Motor Carriers). Their missions are similar and they often have areas where they cross paths. While they are regulatory, both agencies have sworn law enforcement staffs that would be better supported in DPS.
If the Governor and and Legislature concur, merger could take place within 30-90 days. The savings as a result of the merger would be significant. In addition, the enhanced enforcement capability that would result from the merger would make the industries that are presently monitored and regulated by the NTA and TA much safer. The combined "Commercial Passenger Transportation Division" of DPS would be competitive for federal grants as well as maintaining its "Self-Funded" status.
Without merger, there will continue to be inefficient regulation and monitoring of the industries that are served by both the NTA and TA. I know the inefficiencies are very true. The problems that exist in both agencies could be reduced or eliminated if they were merged into DPS.
It is my opinion that Public employee salaries should be posted for voter consideration and placed on the ballot at election time. They work for US the taxpayers, and WE decide about how much money a job is worth, and WE decide if a bonus is warranted WE THE PEOPLE !
Casey,
If someone in the private sector makes $60,000 a year just for cleaning pools then yes, most likely, he deserves that money. Why? Because in the private sector that pool-cleaner guy has to get someone to hire him to clean the pools. He can't use force, so he has to try and provide the best service at the best price in order to attract customers. This is a voluntary and mutually beneficial arrangement between the service provider and the customer.
Government workers, on the other hand, receive salaries from taxpayers. Taxpayers aren't voluntarily handing over their money they are coerced. Absent coercion people might not be willing to pay for some government workers. This means we don't really know whether or not the government workers deserve those salaries. Making matters worse is the fact that government workers get seniority based pay and can have tenure-like privileges. Both of these reduce or even eliminate the incentives to provide the highest quality service (why work harder if you don't get paid more than the next guy?).
The problem is the Fire Department. Because of the MGM Fire and 9-11 these people are milking it. Taking advantage of public fear and guilt. Look at the numbers, clear as crystal what the problem is.
Get rid of all of them. Let populism reign.
When the county gets sued, or needs an architect or engineer, we will just pay hourly fees to private firms for everything.
Imagine the money we will save paying that private attorney 400 per hour instead of the 60 per hour we currently pay the city attorneys.
HE, not all attorneys's cost $400 an hour -- that is elite attorney pay. In fact, you can get private sector attorney's to work on retainer. You can also get them to bid on providing services - you can't get government workers to try and reduce costs very easily.
Casey, no most government jobs also have comparative jobs in the private sectors
Doctors, nurses, psychologists, plumbers, carpenters, architects, engineers, it professionals...they aren't some public sector anomaly.
No one saves money by hiring government workers to do a job.
http://www.writeonnevada.com/2009/12/doc...
There is not a private attorney in this town that will do work for 60 per hour. Not even a first year from unlv, and how will your 60 per HR attorney do against the oppositions 400/HR attorney?
You are asking for lost lawsuits and malpractice. In the end the county loses way more.
Plenty of companies use outside lawyers, pay by the hour or have them on retainer. I'm not saying the government shouldn't employ a few lawyers, but I don't think they're really saving any money by have a company of them. I also doubt all the government lawyers are always providing 2,000 billable hours of work each year.
Btw, for those big cases, government actually does hire those $400 an hour attorneys. When Phoenix got sued by the Goldwater Institute 2 years ago (the city was giving away $97 million of tax money to a company to build a mall) the city employed their own attorneys and hired two attorneys one at $400 an hour and another at $250.
There excuse for doing this was that most of the city attorneys handled small things or dealt with legislation and contracts NOT in court lawsuits.
When it comes to other positions, like doctors, nurses, landscapers, mechanics, plumbers, carpenters. There is simply no reason why the government needs to have them.
*Their excuse
Even at 120/hr you are still only at what a very junior associate would bill at a low end las vegas firm. The county is not overpaying for its legal representation.
I defy any of these county employee hacks to go get a job in the private sector. They'd be lucky to get 1/2 of their current salary, if they could find jobs at all.
It would indeed be interesting to draw correlation between the names of these people drawing the biggest salaries and their membership to the LDS Church. To me it seems as if the County is nothing more than a legal way to launder money into the church. If you are required to pay 10% of what you make to the church then why wouldnt those in power hire their church members to easy high paying jobs? I am quite confident if a talley was taken the results would surprise many.
Just for the record, I am a worker in one of the municipalities here in the valley. I've worked in the private sector, and in a casino, before I came to work here. I still haven't caught up to my previous salary that I had before coming here, but that's not the reason that I work here.
In the private sector, I was working very unstable shifts. I wouldn't just work Monday through Friday 8-5, I was working ticket time, so if I didn't have a call, I didn't get paid, or if there wasn't work for me in the afternoon, I may have to work into the evening to make up the money I lost during the day, and do it at straight time. Not only that, but overtime wasn't optional, it was mandantory.
As far as the "lazy government workers" I think that there are alot of people who think that they could just come in and take my job. They think that there's nothing to working outside when it's 80 degrees outside, but they'll think something else when they're having to work outside when it's 115 degrees and you're working in direct sunshine for hours, or when it's cool. It doesn't matter, the weather doesn't get any better for government workers than it does for the rest of us.
Another thing, I AM working a part time job to make ends meet. I may have to increase my time with my other job since our municipality wants to cut our wages AND eliminate our step raises.
If any municipality wants to save money, why not see how many "assistants" there are. How many directors have multiple deputy directors? How many Deputy Directors have secretaries and assistants? If we eliminate one secretary making $100K wouldn't that allow us to keep two people maing $50K Plus most of those field workers should be more efficient.