DAILY MEMO: labor:

Firefighters feeling budget backlash

Thursday, May 28, 2009 | 2 a.m.

State may add to cost of firefighters (5-17-2009)
County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
Firefighters want bigger piece of a smaller pie (5-4-2009)
Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
Shortfall looms large as fire union holds out (4-23-2009)
It pays EMTs to do I's and cross T's (4-22-2009)
No concessions yet from firefighters (4-12-2009)

Clark County Fire Department

Once upheld as selfless, county firefighters are now being called selfish by some.

Clark County government workers and administrators say that’s the word they’re hearing from taxpayers, and some firefighters say they are hearing it, too.

So how long might it take to rebuild the county firefighters’ public image?

One high-ranking county official said the damage won’t be repaired soon. “They could take 10 percent pay cuts and it won’t help restore their reputations.”

If the tarnish is long-term, the repercussions could be significant because Clark County voters eventually will decide whether to renew a tax specifically meant to help pay for the fire department.

Over the past couple of years, reports about how much money county firefighters make have snowballed — with benefits and overtime, the median is about $123,000 — and these days such reports resonate with Las Vegas Valley residents struggling to find or hold onto living wages in the private sector.

But the tarnish really began to stick a few months ago. Even as police and service employee unions gave up salary to help the county save money, the county firefighters union refused.

“People are losing their jobs and they look at these firefighters and think they don’t care,” the same high-ranking county official said. “People think they are out of touch.”

The president of the county firefighters union, Ryan Beaman, in March said he had done his own budget analysis and determined that “the county does not have to ask the working men and women of the county to take extreme steps to limit their pay, reduce staffing levels or otherwise dilute the level of service” they provide.

But when he wrote that, the county had frozen hiring for 400 unfilled positions. About two months later, that number is up to about 450, a staff reduction projected to save the county about $32 million. At the county-funded University Medical Center, administrators last week said they have frozen 260 jobs, which will save about $9.1 million.

None of this, however, is expected to prevent layoffs and service cuts to balance the county’s budget. Those decisions are likely to come in June because a new budget goes into effect July 1.

Beaman has said he tried to help. He told a legislative committee two weeks ago that he offered concessions, but conditioned them on the county using the savings to reopen UMC’s outpatient oncology unit.

County officials, however, said Beaman never made that offer. And it wouldn’t have mattered if he had, because the county cannot legally shift that savings to UMC, officials said.

These conflicts don’t happen in a vacuum. This one has been aired in public. That’s where the danger lies.

Voters have more control over the county fire department budget than most of them — and many firefighters — realize.

In 1995 voters agreed to levy an extra property tax upon themselves for the next 22 years to support county firefighters. Generally for every $100,000 of taxable property value, the tax means the owner pays an additional $18.45 a year.

The county says that tax revenue covers about 16 percent of the department’s budget.

Voters are to decide in June 2017 whether they want to continue paying that tax.

And sure, “that’s a long time off,” as County Commissioner Tom Collins put it.

He figures that “by then, another big fire” will have occurred, putting firefighters back in voters’ good graces.

Maybe. But do firefighters want to count on tragedy to save them?

Discussion: 24 comments so far…

By neiman1

5/28/09 at 6:20 a.m.

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It's time to cut the salaries paid at Fire Departments. It's time to stop paying extra to fill out paper work, take care of their equipment, and for every class they sign up for and take.

It's time for the Fire Department to operate for the good of the community and not for the good of the firefighters and their union.

I do not believe a $123,000 a year firefighter is better than a $70,000 a year fire fighter.
By thrillseeker

5/28/09 at 8:12 a.m.

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A $123,000 a year fire fighter is a $70,000 a year fire fighter that works for a department that is understaffed and NEEDS them to work hundreds of hours of overtime every year.

Joe Schoenmanns contact info includes a telephone number with a 455 prefix. Most if not all telephone numbers with a 455 prefix are numbers to Clark County agencies. I'm wondering why this is so. Is Joe employed by Clark County? Simply affiliated? Does an affiliation with Clark County explain his pro County management writings?

The fire fighters have asked Clark County to reduce their non essential spending prior to giving up negotiated pay increases. Wouldn't you want your employer to stop spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on non essentials such as magazine and newspaper subscriptions BEFORE they ask you to give up your negotiated cost of living increase?
By 2zero

5/28/09 at 8:48 a.m.

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Paid to sleep, eat and watch TV...."firefighter".
By joeschoenmann (Staff)

5/28/09 at 10:22 a.m.

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The telephone number for my phone line has a "455" prefix because my office is located within the Clark County Government Center. The Sun pays for the telephone line. The Review-Journal also has an office in the Government Center. The Sun and the R-J also have offices within Las Vegas City Hall and in the county and federal courthouses.
Space for reporters is also provided in the legislative building in Carson City.
By future_RN

5/28/09 at 11:04 a.m.

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Surprise, surprise, the ignorant are at it again! Thrillseeker said it best. They do not make a salary of $123,000 a year, they are paid much less than that and are then asked to work hundreds of hours of overtime and then they are paid for that overtime. Why is this such an issue? Is it jealousy? I just don't understand. Should they not be compensated for overtime? Would you like them to work overtime and not be paid for it? Ridiculous!

Zero, I'm just curious, what do you do for a living? If my dad was a firefighter and he had to be away for 24 hours, I would hope that he would get paid for that time. Most of these firefighters get very little sleep, but the sleep they do get is needed. It is needed because they are on a minimum 24 hour shift. So they shouldn't get paid for sleeping even though they are required to be there for 24 hours? Perhaps you would like a paramedic to work on you with no sleep? If they are able to catch an hour or two of sleep in a 24 hour period, we as their patients are better off!

I think it's a far cry to assume that the public all hates the firefighters now. I think the ratio of those that are whiners and hate the firefighters to those that are still grateful for them is in the favor of the firefighters.
By travislv86

5/28/09 at 11:57 a.m.

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Something tells me all will be forgiven when one of your homes is on fire or you need medical assistance. I can't believe all the people that are so concerned with what other people earn. Anyone can be a teacher, policeman, firefighter, or any other government worker. It is noble to keep an eye on the five cents a week your provide in taxes to cover these salaries, I mean you all make it seem as you are writing these checks yourself, get a better job and shut up.
By future_RN

5/28/09 at 12:38 p.m.

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PS: the firefighters don't get paid extra for taking classes, just one more misleading comment by my buddy neiman!
By tbvegas

5/28/09 at 1:11 p.m.

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The news has been reporting that Las Vegas is recruiting for firefighters this fall and they have a hundreds if not thousand applying for only a few positions.

Now the funny part - Requirements: High school diploma or equivalent.
By dl

5/28/09 at 1:23 p.m.

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Yesterday I went to GOLDS GYM on my day off. I saw a Fire Crew working out. 2 hours later, I went to Jasons Deli for lunch where I saw the same crew eating. I hour later, I went to COSTCO and you guessed it, the same crew buying groceries on your dime. We fools are paying for this. If you figure the pay, pension, benefits and costs of driving a crew around (about $1,100. per crew person if you figure the days actually worked, we will be bankrupt like California in no time.
By GunslingerA10

5/28/09 at 1:39 p.m.

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I find the statement made by the president of the county firefighters union, Ryan Beaman, offensive. Does he really think the county tax payers are that gullible? He goes on to say in Mar. he did his own budget analysis and determined that "the county does not have to ask the working men and women of the county to take extreme steps to limit their pay, reduce staffing levels or otherwise dilute the level of service" they provide. His rhetoric is fit for Lilliputians, such big talk that he knows better than our county administrators. Doesn't he realize that John Q. Public is well aware of why there is that increase in the outlays, because the county had frozen hiring for 400 unfilled positions. About two months later, that number is up to about 450, a staff reduction projected to save the county about $32 million. At the county-funded University Medical Center, administrators last week said they have frozen 260 jobs, which will save about $9.1 million. Even as police and service employee unions gave up salary to help the county save money, the county firefighters union refused. The gall of both the FF and their representatives to maintain a position of pay increases, they have no regard for the CPI, or the county economic decline, they will not even submit to a pay freeze.

Then to have to read "These conflicts don't happen in a vacuum. This one has been aired in public. That's where the danger lies". What danger are they talking about? Oh, I get it, what they mean to say is that tax payers will know they're getting fleeced.

Furthermore, to have the County Commissioner Tom Collins state, He figures that "by then, another big fire" will have occurred, putting firefighters back in voters' good graces. Maybe. But do firefighters want to count on tragedy to save them? I think so, but one big job per century doe's not merit an outlandish salary as a government servant.

Give the over-time issues a rest, the FF Dept. should be on a monthly salary not an hourly wage. Why do we make our military die for our country on a salary at 25% of what the FF gets? Selfless service is why. Excellence in all we do. And, yes integrity.

Stop rationalizing and confusing pay with gratitude for service. There isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate the service FF provides. The point being made is FF need to embrace the community they live and work in, so they can more clearly reflect on what they are asking for from tax payers.

Join the club.
By 2zero

5/28/09 at 2:04 p.m.

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Future RN, thanks for the reply. I hope you become an RN a great and noble field.

To your comment about "having to work 24 hour shifts", you are right no one in the world would expect a person not to sleep.

My point goes to the real world and the fact these "firefighters" should be working 12 hour shifts and sleeping on their own time.

Thanks again for allowing me to point out the unbelievable employment circumstances we call "first responders".
By rmcallister

5/28/09 at 2:28 p.m.

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It is unfortunate that Mr. Schoenmann has to work from an office within the Clark County Govt. Building. It appears that it makes it extremely difficult to truly investigate stories and gain information from both sides when the only way that you can get content for a story in the first place is if some unnamed "high ranking county official" feeds you a story. I'd be cautious if I were him to truly try to get both sides of the story if my ability to get a story depended on getting information from sources within county government. Otherwise I'd end up sitting in my office all day with nothing to write about.

If Mr. Schoenmann dug a bit deeper he would realize that many of those unfilled positions are for firefighters. This in turn creates the shortage. Currently the Commission has been considering the hiring of 22 positions recommended by the Fire Chief to help reduce the cost of overtime. Those positions remain unfilled.

Along those same lines it is unfortunate that Mr. Schoenmann also doesn't spend time investigating why the Clark County Fire Dept. has had it's insurance services rating reduced from a 1 to a 2. This was due in large part because they are 9 engine companies short for coverage thereby increasing response times. The reduction of the ISO rating has a part to play in setting the insurance rates for businesses and to a lesser degree the public. In other words by not providing more coverage and having the rating drop it increases the costs in homeowners and businesses fire insurance.

It would also be interesting for Mr. Schoenmann to dig into the budget as much as the Clark County Firefighters did with their independent accounting firm. He would probably be surprised by the amount of excessive and wasteful spending that is taking place. Of course if he found out about it and actually reported on it he might be cut out of any good stories that the "high up county official" might feed him.
By afveteran

5/28/09 at 3:31 p.m.

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My hat's off to all working personnel in the fire department and EMT services that command the compensation they are so jealously accused of not deserving. I happen to believe that they earn every penney if not more.
By thrillseeker

5/28/09 at 3:55 p.m.

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Clark County won't hire enough people to staff three 24 hour shifts. What makes you think that they would staff six twelve hour shifts? It would not be cheaper. If it were they would go back to it. They have been through it. It is far cheaper to have fire fighters on duty for 24 hours. No OT until they exceed a 56 hour work week. Would you work 56 hour weeks for straight pay at your job?

How can these newspapers keep offices at the government buildings and pretend to be open minded. Perhaps the fire fighters locals, the iron workers locals, the teachers Union etc. should have such representation. Unbiased of course. Lets go a step further, how about offices in the headquarters of the ACLU, Republican and Democratic parties. We'll get plenty of unbiased editorials.

Clark County should stop paying for vehicles that employees take home. They should not pay for County officials to be members of the Chamber of Commerce. They should cancel their subscriptions to trade magazines and newspapers, and they should not send employees out of town for training. When these types of non essential expenditures are cut out perhaps the fire fighters will be more interested in talking about what they can do to help.

Simply because Police officers and other County employees have given up their COLA increases without stipulation doesn't mean that the fire fighters are greedy for requiring their employer to change its spending habits prior to negotiating the surrender of theirs.

Joe Schoenmann should investigate the types cost savings that the fire fighters are promoting. Being inside the County Government building he doesn't have far to walk to get the information that he needs to blow the lid off of wasteful spending of this nature.
By future_RN

5/28/09 at 10:24 p.m.

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Gunslinger maybe you should have been a firefighter. It sounds like you are a little upset that you had to put so much work in as a member of the military. I think that was your choice though, right? Why should I give the OT issue a rest? Because you think that the firefighters should just work OT without pay? Oh that's right, we should do everything like the military does, I forgot! The firefighters already work a 56 hour work week and are not paid for overtime, so let's just call it even, 16 hours without OT and they are allowed to get a few hours of sleep a shift! Why would should the firefighters be a monthly salary? So that the county/city can overwork them and not compensate them for their OT and then save money by not hiring anyone and in the mean time put lives of the citizens at risk. Let's be realistic here. Also, I'm a little curious about something...does the military not get any extra benefits besides their base salary? Everyone always wants to complain about the benefits of the firefighters, but I happen to know that many other employers both public and private are also given added benefits.

Hey zero, if you're trying to make a point, how about you do it without putting the firefighters down. You say you're trying to make a point about their shifts, but I would have never known that you care so much from you're first post. It just sounded to me like you were upset!

Thrillseeker, you are absolutely right. The county has no room to talk until they start cutting back on their disgusting spending habits.
By future_RN

5/28/09 at 10:24 p.m.

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Hey dl, where do you get $1100.00 a shift for each man on a crew? Just curious how you did the math??? If we go bankrupt it won't be because of the ff's, the cops or the teachers, it will be because of Mr. head of janitorial making $120,000 a year and bringing no money back in, it'll be for the expensive "business lunches", company cars, company cell phones and all the other high expenses of the county.

Tb, why is it so funny that a ff only needs a diploma to be a ff? I'll pose the same question to you that I have others in the past - What degree do you suppose a ff should obtain to be a firefighter? Did you know that many ff have a degree? While they say it's not required, it is def. easier to get on the dept. with a degree. The firefighters receive hours upon hours of training and classes. In fact, they attend a six month academy before they even hit the floor. The academy is equivalent to at least a 40 hour work week for six months. If there is a ff that can verify that for me please do because I'm not 100% sure on the exact number of hours. I once heard that by the time a ff has worked a 20 year career, with all the training and hours of classes, they could have 4 master's degrees (I know, it's not a fact!). I don't know that 4 masters degrees would make them a better ff, but I bet all the training and classes makes them a better ff. A ff/paramedic has a formal training just as any other paramedic does. Does that not count for an education? I understand how you can be confused by the statements made, it's hard to know the truth when there is so much spin!
By GunslingerA10

5/29/09 at 12:28 a.m.

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To the future and beyond.

I am happy with my life choices, with my mil. ret. pay and civ. pay. I make more than ff or you, but it is not about me or you, or anyone else for that matter. It is about the expense of the fire dept. Rational all you want about other wasteful areas of govt. to justify all ff want, but if that was how salaries were based then the road ahead will be painful for many low earning people in the valley, brought about by the inflation of taxes and continual unwarranted pay increases for county servants.

Should their ever be a counter-part private employer for ff to work for without tax monies involved to pay their salaries great. I think the sky is without limit to what they could earn or ask for as ff with subject matter expertise, until then not on the taxpayer dime should they be demanding so much.

This idea that John Q. Public is against ff is all wrong, that is only deflection by pro ff activist to impose guilt, taxpayers are concerned and rightly so with unchecked govt. spending which is getting out of hand by the county. We all have to do our part to rein in the wasteful spending, and if that means a cut to programs ok, if that means no pay raises for public servants ok.

I like your capitulation to the janitorial part of salaries earned by non-college educated entry jobs/public savants, but again it is not about them in this thread, it is about the ff and the point of how the budget is to be balanced without weighted data to warnet any pay increases.
By kurtz

5/29/09 at 9:57 a.m.

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dear future rn, i hope and pray that if i get sick in the future i don't come across you. your an idiot. hpoefully your career will be on the picket line and not in a hospital.
By simply_put

5/29/09 at 10:36 a.m.

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In the days before sprinkler systems there was a need for firemen and the system of shifts, training, etc we have now but we no longer need the fireman of old. NOW we need professional paramedics (not firemen parading as them) who work normal shifts and get paid according to their market value not a bunch of lazy firemen sitting around, sleeping, shopping, eating on the taxpayer dime while they wait for the occasional fire.
By HL9000

5/29/09 at 11:41 a.m.

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Mr Schoenmann, Why are your articles all subjective. Your info is rarely supported. You always have Quotes without names? Are these high ranking Govt officials and administrators afraid to go on record with these quotes. Mr Beaman is not afraid to stand behind his statements.

Kinda makes me wonder, if your the one behind all these quotes. Sounds like your eavesdropping in on conversations in your Las Vegas Sun Clark County building.
By dash

5/29/09 at 12:19 p.m.

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Future RN, are you married to a firefighter and are so defensive because you don't want to lose your man's big paycheck?? The firefighters in Vegas get paid so much because of the casinos - it helps the tourist market to have a well represented fire dept. to make the people feel safer. And then there's the good ole boy network feeding into it as well; you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
By future_RN

5/29/09 at 1:36 p.m.

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kurtz, I hope for your sake and mine that I never gets STUCK being your nurse either, but if I do I will gladly do my job and take care of you no matter how ungrateful you really are, just as the ff/paramedics do! I'm confident that my career will not be on the picket line, but thank you for your concern!

simply put, you almost aren't worth addressing because it is clear that you know nothing about fire suppression. Just let the sprinklers do the work right! Hopefully those sprinklers can grow legs and arms and start carrying people out of the building also. Are you saying that the ff/paramedics are in fact not professional paramedics? I would take a ff/paramedic over a private sector paramedic in a heartbeat!

dash, to answer your question, no, I am not married to a ff, I'm not the daughter, relative or in any way related to a ff. Thanks for asking though. I just happen to know a lot of the actual facts and not just what the paper writes! The firefighters pay has nothing to do with the casinos. It has to do with them working their tails off and being at the station all the time working OT. But I suppose you're one of those idiots who thinks they should work salary and not get paid when they work a 48 hour or 72 hour shift. They probably shouldn't be compensated for being away from their wives/husbands, children and families for three days at a time, right?
By lv2gen

5/29/09 at 5:51 p.m.

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Disclosure: I am NOT a ff and don't have any relatives/friends that are either.

$50k a year in overtime, or about that, is a lot of money, and it speaks to poor management. The upper management is at fault for not taking steps to prevent that much overtime, not the average ff who takes advantage of it. I would also expect that some of that overtime is forced, if the dept. is that short on people. Hire enough people to staff at normal levels and you will cut the overtime.

On another note, this discussion probably isn't being conducted in Santa Barbara right now. I visited Santa Barbara just one week after their wildfires and everywhere there you saw handmade, personal thank you signs to all of the ff who fought those terrible wildfires. The gratitude of that entire city was visible and heartfelt. God forbid we have a major fire like that in our mountains, but if we did our ff's would be out there until it was out. Hot or cold, wet or dry, they are there when you need them. At great risk to their own safety. Personally, I kind of like it that they have enough time to go to Costco and other places. That means NOTHING IS ON FIRE! I worked in a grocery store and often they had to drop their stuff and run out the door to go help someone. So their job is not sitting around watching TV all day.

Mad about public salaries?? Look at the Convention and Visitors Authority. Ever see how much Manny Cortez used to make? A couple of hundred thousand just to start, then there were bonuses, etc. The LVCVA is a huge waste of money, no bid contracts, etc. Or look at programs like Head Start, or the EOB. THAT is where to money goes down the drain. Worthwhile programs run by people more interested in feeding at the trough than helping the indigent. Go after that money first.