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twitterThe Legislature:
Firefighters want bigger piece of a smaller pie
Union leader, lobbyist unapologetic as he goes after more health benefits
Monday, May 4, 2009 | 2 a.m.
McAllister
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In Today's Sun
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- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
- Shortfall looms large as fire union holds out (4-23-2009)
- It pays EMTs to do I's and cross T's (4-22-2009)
- No concessions yet from firefighters (4-12-2009)
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Carson City — This is the worst legislative session in memory, nearly everyone agrees. The fiscal crisis has made it nearly impossible to make progress on policy goals in areas such as education or health care.
There is one interest group, however, for whom the salad days continue, at least thus far.
The firefighters union and its lobbyist and president, Rusty McAllister, are moving legislation, heard in committee last week, that would broaden workers’ compensation rights for firefighters who develop certain types of cancers, which they assert are caused by on-the-job exposure to carcinogens.
They currently receive similar benefits for heart and lung diseases.
Another bill would reduce the wait for appeals when they’ve been denied benefits, which happens more than half the time. A third bill would eliminate a requirement that a volunteer firefighter with heart disease be younger than 55 to get benefits.
Lobbyists for local governments that are dealing with fiscal crises warn of exploding costs from the legislation.
The Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce released a statement to the Las Vegas Sun that was sharply critical of what the chamber says is a galling ambition during a deep recession:
“Taxpayers are suffering right now in one of the worst economic times in history,” said Veronica Meter, a spokeswoman for the chamber. “Now is not the time to increase benefits for anybody. Now is not the time to ask for more. It is outrageous for firefighters to ask for more, given their already generous salaries and benefits, especially at a time when Nevadans are struggling and hurting.”
Studies show that because of overtime pay, 523 of Clark County’s 770 firefighters earned more than $100,000 in 2007.
Despite the strong opposition from the chamber, firefighters have a consistent record of victory in Carson City.
“It’s tough to vote against the firefighters,” said state Sen. Warren Hardy, R-Las Vegas, after a hearing on Assembly Bill 521, the cancer measure.
So what is it, exactly, about firefighters that gives them so much more clout than, say, the teachers union?
“Teachers don’t have 4 1/2 days a week to screw with you,” quipped one lobbyist, referring to the firefighters’ unconventional workweek.
The firefighters, with 2,450 members statewide, are well organized and well funded. They gave $30,000 to Senate and Assembly candidates in 2008, and their international gave tens of thousands of dollars to Nevada Democrats’ successful effort to control the state Senate.
And, McAllister is a master at working the legislative process.
At last week’s hearing, for instance, he brought three firefighters in various stages of battling cancer to tell their stories.
McAllister balanced the personal with the empirical, marshaling data to support his case.
He referred to a University of Cincinnati study that showed the incidence of testicular cancer is 102 percent greater among firefighters than the general population; skin cancer, 38 percent higher; and prostate cancer, 28 percent higher. Although he had no evidence to warrant offering benefits for those with thyroid cancer, he said it was justified because he counted nine cases of thyroid cancer among 501 firefighters.
He also anticipated the opposition, pointing to another study that showed no conclusive evidence that firefighters are at greater risk for cancer than the rest of the population.
“The tobacco industry said the same thing” about smokers for decades, he said.
The bill, which would also reduce the number of years a firefighter would have to be on the job to qualify for the benefits, has what’s known as a fiscal note — a forecast of how much it would cost. Clark County estimates it would cost $1 million during the next two years. Henderson estimates its cost at $2 million.
Jon Coppelman, writing on the blog Workers Comp Insider, which is published by management consultant Lynch Ryan, recently wrote: “Virtually all municipalities operate under a ‘zero sum’ budget, where increased expenditures in one area (expanded coverage for illnesses under comp) become a net subtraction in another (municipal services, public safety, schools, water supplies, etc.).
Pursuing the types of policies McAllister is advocating, Coppelman concludes, “is an invitation to fiscal ruin.”
Sen. Maggie Carlton, the chairwoman of the Commerce and Labor Committee who heard testimony on the cancer bill last week, seemed persuaded by McAllister. She said high cancer rates are clearly a problem, and one she’s committed to fixing.
McAllister may not seem, on paper, like a candidate to be Big Time Lobbyist. Raised in rural Nevada, he fought wildfires for the Bureau of Land Management to help pay for junior college in Utah. He took the firefighter exams and joined Las Vegas department in 1984. It was a good-paying, steady job, he said.
But then he climbed the ranks of the union and was elected vice president of the southern district in 1996.
His first legislative session was 1999. What he knew from high school civics and a little political science didn’t prepare him. “I realized I had no clue,” he said.
He diligently attended hearings, even those not related to firefighter issues. “I wanted to go see what the procedure and etiquette were, the relationships between lobbyists and legislators, how legislators ran their committees ...”
In his second session, he secured benefits for firefighters with hepatitis C contracted at accident and crime scenes in the years before they used protective masks and gloves.
Soon enough, McAllister was working on issues that affected all injured and sick workers. He helped negotiate an agreement with insurance companies to give a cost-of-living increase for those on permanent, total disability, whose benefits would otherwise be eroded by inflation. For workers injured before the new law, he found a revenue source and got them lump-sum payments.
Business lobbyists have come up with a name for his aggressive posture and his string of successes: “The McAllister Effect” — his practice of pushing the envelope a little further with each session.
McAllister shrugs it off.
On the overtime issue, he notes that the policy of Southern Nevada governments has been to pay overtime rather than hire more firefighters, which would be more expensive.
“You don’t hire people, and then we work too much overtime and get pummeled for making too much money. I don’t know what the solution is,” McAllister said.
As for enhancing benefits now, during such a deep recession, he said in good times no one volunteered to offer fairer benefits.
“They weren’t coming to us saying, ‘You’re good guys, what can we do to help you?’ They opposed us then.”
McAllister also made a more emotional argument: “What cost do you put on people’s lives? We’re talking dollars, and we understand that. But we’re also talking about people’s lives.”
If nothing else, McAllister understands the essence of the Legislature: “The majority of what happens at the Legislature deals with money. Someone doesn’t have enough. Someone has too much, and someone else wants to take it.”
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Give the fire fighters their increased health benefits...
Give them a 25% pay reduction to go with it. Change their work week to 8 hours 5 days weekly, rotating weekends and stop paying them while they sleep.
I am very wary of the cancer results that the firefighters union presents. I would like to see the study. I would bet that it is statistical bs.
Twice as likely to get testicular cancer as the general population? Is this because the statistically included women in the general population?
What a shame!
Is a fire fighter paid $100,000 a year a better fire fighter than the ones only making $70,000 a year. Reduce the pay or contract out the work. Quit making them heroes for just doing their jobs. For every single fire fighter that does something heroic there are tens of thousands of work days where nothing happens.
The police do much more heroic work every day. Construction workers have more dangerous work as do loggers. The fire fighters have painted a wonderful image of themselves that has about as much to do with reality as Bambi playing with the animals in the forest.
If they don't wanna get paid less then just lay them off. Start by going through the unemployment line and asking if anybody wants a job. After you get 2000-3000 lined up for $50,000 a year start firing the ones that make the most. Fire the guys at the top of the pay scale and put the new ones in. I mean its about holding a hose on a fire they are not doing complex calculations. Im all for the 8 or 12 hr shift. And I wanna see women get these jobs as well. Time to show these tax burdens who the boss really is. We the taxpayers are always being made to pay for salary's of people that want more and more. Cut the ones at the top.
Wow once again all the experts come out here to voice their opinion on the one sided "great" reporting by the Las Vegas Sun.
Here's the solution: Give the firefighters fantastic raises and benefits. Now where does the county find the money? Simple -- just take the money from teachers. Teachers will "b@tch and moan," but they will continue to work for less money, more kids, and more responsibility.
Aren't there some towns that actually have volunteer firefighters? Maybe this is something we need to implement here...
thats why they are called towns not cities Linda. you can't have volunteers for a valley with almost 2 mill people living here
Why not, Mike?
How long do you think it would take for them to respond from their homes to the fire station then on to the medical or fire call? Giving the average response time is between 4-6 minutes now according to the NFPA or National Fire Protection Association, volunteers would take up to 20 minutes to make it on scene. A fire can double in size every 30 seconds to a minute. Now I think you can do the math on that. Also your home insurance is based on what type of fire protection a city has. Its called an ISO rating. Vegas is a 1, the best, with 10 being the worst. Most volunteer departments are a 5 or lower. That means more cost for insurance for your home. But that is the least important fact, lives depend on quick response to an fire or medical scene. In a large city with terrible traffic volunteers are not the answer.
Mike, the vast majority of the people here just want you guys to be fair and realistic about your pay. If you think we are just blowing smoke, tell us why you think firefighters deserve more than they are getting now.
Interesting comment/stats Mike.
Makes me wonder what kind of homeowners insurance people in Gardnerville are paying.
Probably less than me in Green Valley Ranch, if I were to guess at the math.
The Bill is to assist with the treatment of those FFs that get cancer that have less than 5 years on. It is not a pay raise and it is something that I dont every want to use but if I would get cancer I would be gratefull for it. Our union reps fight hard for us just as any union or non union reps should.
Its your fire insurance on your home MR Green Valley. And if you have every lived in an area with less of an ISO rating you would know the difference. and yes I have.
And yes my insurance here is less than the cheaper home I had in another state with less fire protection.
And I am not FF here. I was a volunteer many moons ago in a small town not in this state. Thats how I know it wont work here. I read the issues and keep up on the numbers to better understand these things not just rant about them. It does matter to me how much insurance I pay and why. Try researching some of these things before complaining. Yeah they get payed alot, but do you want the Jack in the Box drive throught type guy responding as a volunteer instead?
Sorry I meant paid
I agree with CCSDTeacher:
Here's the solution: Give the firefighters fantastic raises and benefits. Now where does the county find the money? Simple -- just take the money from teachers. Teachers will "b@tch and moan," but they will continue to work for less money, more kids, and more responsibility.
Cut the teachers pay and also the firefighters and any other member of the "state lottery" I mean state employee. They all want us to pay more while we are making a third or half of what we use to make. Taxpayers cant afford all your wants and its time you realize that the well is dry! Quit stealing from the taxpayers!
I might have agreed with you, LasVegas2009, if teachers had also received great pay increases during the boom times like everyone else did. The fact is, though, that they didn't. Teachers work their butts off and I hope they fight for every penny that they are entitled to in their contracts. It's about time teachers got some guts and quit letting everyone walk all over them.
Weather teachers received pay increases in the past is not the issue. Every single person on the states payroll needs to have a salary cut. Everyone across the board. No exceptions 50% pay cut. When the state takes in excess money we can look at raises but right now not later we need cuts.
Too bad, so sad. They have a contract. Go ahead and try to break it, LasVegas2009.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/613304...
Same people spinning the article again.
Its about cancer people. You want studies Neiman and Phyremedic from Colorado. Copy and paste the article above. Quit spinning this into pay issue's. We have Firefighters all over this county dying from cancers, plain and simple. Do we like it, of course not. Do we want to make sure they are taken care of? Yes! If teachers were coming down with cancer in thier classrooms, I would want the same for them, but thats not the case here, is it? The current bill is to reduce on the job cancers to 2 years instead of 5. Las Vegas, Henderson, Clark County, and N Las Vegas have all lost multiple people in the last couple years and have several dying from cancers with only 3-4 years on the job. These are young people in thier 20's and 30's. Cancer Specialist doctors have told these people, "Thier is no way you had cancer over 3-4 years ago, if you did, you would already be dead". Again these are aggressive cancers from exposures on the job.
Teachers and firefighters....full time pay for part time work.
...and once again the zeros of the world weigh in with their nonsense.
shannonK: Im not a zero, Im a voting TAX PAYER. Your employer (if you feed of the tax coffers). I pay for all these salary increases so I have a right to voice my opinion about them. As an American all of us tax payers have a stake in these increases. It is not right to continue to raise my taxes for the same services I paid less for in the past. The increases have to stop. We should only run a balanced budget. We should only spend what we take in. Simple concept, dollar in dollar out. Not dollar in 6 dollars out. Most Americans know that government is run-a-muck and spend more than it takes in. We the citizen taxpayer have had enough.
Las Vegas 2009
It only about holding a Hose? Not doing complex calculations?
No there is a bit more than just that to do the job. We actually get college degrees in Fire Science. You see, fire behavior is sort of predictable if you know what you are doing. So just holding a hose isnt gonna do it.
As far as calculations goes, tell that to a Paramedic the next time he needs to give you the proper drug in the proper dose that calculations are not needed. No, its not launching the space shuttle, but its pretty important to know.
LasVegas2009:
You think that state employees don't pay taxes? Guess again.
LasVegas2009 says: "Weather teachers received pay increases in the past is not the issue. Every single person on the states payroll needs to have a salary cut. Everyone across the board. No exceptions 50% pay cut. When the state takes in excess money we can look at raises but right now not later we need cuts."
Yeah, that's a great idea. Cut the income of 18,000 families by half, instead of the whole state giving a little more because the free ride from gaming is over. Do you know anyone who could take a 50% pay cut and not lose their home? So they all go on welfare, that's cost-effective! State employees didn't create this deficit, and most of the ones I know are extraordinarily hard-working individuals. And another thing: My state salary is about half of what my counterparts in the priavte sector make, so your previous comment about state workers making more than private-sector folks is just as ridiculous.
choonzer: I and everyone I work with took a 50-60% pay cut. So yes I know lots of people in the private sector that have taken cuts and yes many of us have lost our homes. Your state salary is paid by people who are making less and your comrades want even more. Balance the budget!
Hey LasVegas, we ALL pay taxes, not just the private sector. No one wants to pay more taxes, but if you cut education and social services by 50%, they won't work anymore. Plain and simple. There are different ways to balance the budget, and simply dismantling the state's entire infastructure in the hopes that someday peope will start pouring into NV to gamble again is naive and irresponsible. The gravy train of gaming dollars is gone, at least for now. Time to pay taxes just like other states do.
LasVegas2009,
Every day you post here and bash teachers, firefighters, etc. You obviously don't value education and have never done an honest day of community service. I think if you spent the day in the shoes of a teacher, firefighter,or other community service member you would have some respect. Maybe you are jealous of educated professionals who make a career serving the public? I'm sorry you received a poor education and do not know the difference between "weather" and "whether" in your post above. I'm sure that the evil teachers and firefighters you rant about had to prove better writting skills to get the jobs you hate us for. Teachers actually want to make sure the children in this community get a better education than you seem to have. I'm sorry you feel the need to hate because of your inadequacies!
lvsun123: Everyday you post here correcting spelling and all the while loafing on the tax payers money. I would love to spend the day getting overpaid but I have a real job to do. See I can't take off because I am forced to pay for lay-a-bouts like you. Are you using a tax paid for computer to post your pleas for more? See that's the thing with you people you always want more! It never stops you teachers are always saying you don't make enough even though you all make over $50,000 a year! And next year the firefighters are gonna want more and the state employees are gonna demand more again. It never stops with you leaches. More, More, Higher Taxes, Higher Taxes that's all you say. You should all be sent home.
This is not the time for "any" raises or increases in benefits for anyone,no exceptions.Let us get through this.Certainly the BIG salaries of the Firefighters can handle anything thrown at them. Have they totally lost their minds ?
"Hundreds of Clark County School District employees will soon be getting bad news in the mail.
Letters will be mailed today to 574 district support employees, notifying them that their jobs will be eliminated for the next school year.
Similar notifications will go to administrators on May 15 and teachers on May 30. District officials say it's still too early to estimate how many letters will go out to administrators and teachers."
From Las Vegas Now Website
This is great now lets cut some firefighters also.
I agree, no increases for anyone. I feel for the firefighters affected, but these are desparate times.
you should all be sent home? Now that would fix everything what an idiot. Come up with real solutions or ideas, not crying about how you have to work. Your working and complaining about it. What an idiot you are!
lasvegas2009 is just some insane flamer. no opinion of value to anyone. He's amusing himself. Isn't he funny?
To LV2009:
I understand the need to keep government spending in check, and I actually think some of the trimming that's occurring as a result of the budget crisis is a good thing. But NV has been one of the fastest-growing states in the nation for many years now, which means more social services and bigger government spending. Gaming revenues and taxes have NOT kept pace with the population growth, and have all but dried up now. If people like yourself and the governor have your way, education and social services simply won't survive. The health clinic I run will close down, along with many others across the state, and there's no one else in the community to see the patients we see--the low-income, uninsured folks whose numbers are growing every day. You may think that's the fiscally responsible thing to do, but government is more than just fiscal responsibility, it's moral and ethical accountability as well. Nevada already has the hightest high school dropout rate, and the highest suicide rate in the nation, minus Alaska. The draconian cuts you're advocating would literally cost lives, mortgage the futures of our children, and be a disgrace to the state for generations to come.
So basically the union wants to make sure that firefighters who get cancer while on the job get coverage? What is wrong with that? I say they deserve it.
I hope I understand this correctly. The union wants better benefits for firefighters who get cancer on the job. I read also that this benefit goes to Volunteers as well.As a former volunteer on Mt. Charleston, I pray that I do not have any lingering affects from the few house and brush fires I worked while volunteering there. My thoughts. Not sure if they deserve a monetary raise in these tough times. I will say though that a benefit that allows for the treatment of Cancer born on the job while saving someones property is a necessary thing. Especially for Volunteers. No disrespect for the paid firefighters. Adding a stipulation from 5 years on the job to 2 years on the job is also good. I think a few of us fail to see the benefit for this stipulation. Again maybe a raise is not a necessity but this benefit I think is needed. Also just a side note. I saw about 15-30 Firefighters in uniform (full Turnouts) running in The Race For A Cure this week in Las Vegas. They stepped up, we should also.
"Weather" teachers..........
Good example of why we need good teachers and how important it is to get a good education -
Can't we just raise taxes so all public employees make six-figures? The extra money would stimulate the economy. BTW, the job of rolling sleeping firefighters over to keep them from getting bed sores is still open.
Stop building with materials that become toxic when burning. Research and develop better maasks and respirators for the fighters. Private sector could use the work doing this. Develope better means of fire suppression that do not require endangerment of human life or exposure to toxins. Quit smoking in your danged beds at 3AM and the need for firefightes getting paid for sleeping and waking up to come rescue your sorry butts would not longer be there!
Rusty and Sings with coyotes:
Your perception of Firefighters is so skewd. Tell you what, I will call you both everytime I get a call at night. You get up from sleeping, walk around your house for 20 min to simulate the call you just went on. Then go back to bed. lets see if that changes your outlook after getting up multiple times per night. We dont sleep all night, trust me!
You will probably catch a cold and feel terrible at first, this will be due to your immune system being taxed from sleep deprivation. Dont worry though, eventually your body will get use to that. But sfter 20 years of this, your body can only take so much. So then you will likely have a heart attack, stroke, cancer or blow out your back. So when you are retired at age whatever, we will probably be ill or dead not able to enjoy our retirement. We understand that, and take that oath to serve knowing full well that our lives will be cut short on average 15 years. You want that, then come and test! I am quite sure, we deserve every penny we make.
Sings with Coyotes, its not the respiratory protection that makes the problem, Toxins still get through your skin and pores. You cannot completely encapsulate and still function on the fire ground without having everyone droping out with heat exhaustion, your body still must breath.
As far as to stop building with toxins, ok smart guy, you come up with an idea to stop building houses and busineses with toxic products. Then come up with an idea to have them not furnish with Carpet, Rugs, Plastic, Wood. Then tell them not to have AC Freon, natural Gas, and all the other chemicals that are stored with regards to every household cleaning product, ect. They all act different when put to fire. They are downright nasty!
Oh please HL9000, a retired firefighter told me that one.
Wow,dude! I was supporting what it is that firefighters do! I agree that they SHOULD get paid for the time they are on call and that includes when they are sleeping. 24 hours shifts, you have sleep sometime, and who in the world wants a firefighter to show up on a call suffering from sleep deprication? My point wasn't that they should instantly have non toxic products it was it's a starting point. In the mean time firefighters are exposed to on the job hazards and should get coverage for medical related issues.
I am not a fire fighter.......but when your house is up in flames and you are inside screaming for your life and a man/woman goes in to save you with no reguard for their own health, these people need to be taken care of, police officers as well.......you all can talk a big talk, but when push comes to shove when faced with what these men/woman face on a daily basis, many of you would either pee your pants in fear/ run the other way / freeze in your shoes / or just flat out refuse to do what these people do for us....you get what you pay for....i.f you want a professional , trained, hard working fire fighter, police officer....you need to pay these people for risking their lives EVERY day to save your butts..........people dont want to pay them, but when they call 911 they want the best to come running to their aid
Sings,
I understood what you meant. I guess some are quick to think that we the general public don't appreciate what Firefighters go through. I am a former volunteer firefighter so I understand. Maybe more so I had to get up in the middle of the night drive to my station, sometimes in the dead of winter. Hope the truck will start, get to the scene do what we do then take truck back to station. secure rig, go back home hope to get back to sleep and get up for work in the few short hours I have left. All for free. yes my choice but some of these I deserve better rookies would not for one second be on a volunteer service. Wish those of us in the private industry of EMS made CCFD money. I would love to test but have some physical limitations that keep me from doing so. So I serve the public for a private service making about 50,000 less. Yet at times we run the same calls as them. (medical). Am I jealous, hell yeah. More power to them. I believe they need all the medical and disability coverage they can get. I just don't think a raise in money is good right now. Some not all, live beyond their means as it is.
That's the bottom line for me, also. I'm willing to pay an slight increase in my property tax to better fun local servies such as firefighters and police because I feel they are invaluable. I'm not sure how the Legislature might find additional monies for these services, but it's terribly ironic that if it's something THEY really want they always find a way to dig up the revenue. Always seem to whenever they want new chairs for their offices in the chambers at the LCB.
very true sings.....I totally agree with you on that
It really irritates me to hear the ignorance of some people. With all of these articles about the firefighters, it's the same uneducated people sounding off about things that they have no clue about. One of you fools *Sings* says"24 hours shifts, you have sleep sometime". Well smart guy that's part of the job. They do in fact sometimes go a whole 24 hour shift without sleeping. If they get a call, they have to go. Do you think they tell the people in need of their services that they haven't gotten any sleep and they won't be responding to the call?? Probably not!!
*LasVegas* you are an uneducated fool! Yes, let's cut teachers, the very people who are single handedly responsible for teaching our children. Nevada is already one of the most uneducated states, and you want to get rid of teachers. Someone needs to teach your children because you obviously don't have the education to do so! Also, if we cut the firefighters like you suggested, who is it that you suggest respond to the fires such as the one at the Moulin Rouge today? Oh that's right, we'll just send you in there and you can just "hold a hose" and let's see how that works for you. Let's see if you come out alive! Maybe you would like to go on the medical calls that these guys go on all day long, and deal with these bloody, vomiting, infected people, or have to deal with a patient dying after you've done all you could do to save their life. I'm sure these things don't take a toll on these firefighters at all. You sound like a jealous whining baby! Get an education and than maybe you too can be paid more than $20,000 a year.
*2zero* "Teachers and firefighters....full time pay for part time work." Who's working part time? Let's see 10 days a month X 24 hours in a shift = 240 hours a month. Hhhmmmm....a normal 40 hour work week = 160 hours a month. Looks like all of us who are working the 40 hour work weeks are really the part timers! And let me guess your argument will be that they are sleeping. Well, if they are lucky enough to get sleep, they are still away from their families, and not doing things that they would be able to do if they weren't at the firehouse working so I would say that probably counts as working!
This illustrates the problem with "big government" spending. there is no connection between what a service or product is actually worth or its "fair market value" and what is paid for it. the free market system is precisely what made the United States the greatest, most powerful nation in world history.
Are firefighters overpaid? ask yourself this, if firefighter pay were cut by 40% would we not still have a huge surplus of qualified people applying for these jobs. yes of course we would. the pay and benefits they receive are commensurate with vocations in the "real world" which often require a masters or doctoral degree, and/or decades of experience. the fact that a firefighter, without having had to spend many years completing a high level full time college education, can make 6-figures while in their twenties or early thirties is crazy.
While I respect the work they do, many others have and still continue to work for much less, in much more dangerous jobs, such as military service, particularly in the US Marines or US Army during this time of war. I agree with an earlier post that firefighters and their representatives have done a masterful job portraying them as "heroes", when it is a much more dangerous job, with less thanks often earned, to serve as a police officer, or construction worker, taxi driver, fisherman, etc.
Also, I think it is often forgotten in these discussions that being a firefighter here in Las Vegas, where most of the high rise construction is modern, and has some of the most state of the art fire suppression systems designed into them, is much, much less hazardous than being a firefighter in, say, Chicago, or New York, or San Francisco, where there are 100+ year old buildings aplenty.
So Joe, what you're saying is that firefighters are worth less than $40,000 a year. I for sure would not let anyone that I care about run into a burning building for less than $40,000 a year and I also wouldn't let them take the chance of bringing home a communicable disease from one of the many medical calls they go on every day. If you think that these firefighters are overpaid, why don't you take the time to do a little research on the pay of many other city/county workers. You might be surprised to find that people such as janitorial heads, administration secretaries, and many other positions are pulling in well over $100,000 a year. I don't know about you, but I would much rather sit behind a desk and pull in over $100,000 a year and work less than 300 hours a month than put my life in danger to be a firefighter and pull in a base salary of half that. I know for a fact that many many many of these firefighters don't come close to a six figure income. The media of course would like you to believe otherwise, because that's the kind of news that sells, right? The firefighters who are pulling in a six figure income, are those that are working 80+ hours a week and/or have been on the department for 20 years. And, the reason they work overtime is because the city/county has done the research and come to the conclusion that it is cheaper to pay these guys overtime than it is to hire more firefighters. Sometimes, it's not even an option to go home after a shift, they are TOLD that they are to stay for another twenty four hours.
As for education Joe, what masters degree do you suggest these firefighters obtain in order to make them better firefighters? These firefighters spend hours upon hours taking classes and training courses in hopes of getting on the department, and even after they finally get on the department the classes and training courses don't stop. I guess you can think of it as continuing education. If there was a masters degree for this profession, these guys would probably have enough hours to obtain it. Does having a masters degree make one person better than another? I'll tell ya what, I have a lot more respect for these firefighters who risk their lives and are lacking a degree pulling in a five or six figure income than for some big time executive with a masters degree who spends his day sitting in a cool 75 degree air conditioned office making a six figure income.
Continued...
As for the pay of the military, I agree with you that their pay is probably a little shabby, but than wouldn't it be the proper to raise the pay of the military rather than lower the pay of a firefighter? And Joe, I'm a little confused about the heroism of a taxi driver. What exactly is it about the job of a taxi driver that is so dangerous? Do they do something everyday that a firefighter doesn't do? Please clue me in.
As far as the construction and design of the buildings here being less hazardous, you may have a point but should the firefighters of the Las Vegas be punished for having newer age buildings to work with? And, by the way its the fire department that makes the buildings as safe as they are, so if our buildings here are safer and equipped with state of the art fire suppression systems, than I guess we can thank our fire department for doing their job!
Joe, you and all your uneducated buddies should spend a little more time researching the subjects that you argue so that you can have an actual argument. Stop believing everything that the news and the jealous gossipers tells you!
What should a Firefighter make?
A Firefighter with 10 years on, makes around $75,000 a year. That's working ten 24 hour shifts a month. A Firefighter works an additional 80 hours a month then a typical person, with a 9-5 hour job who works 40 hours a week. Most people who work over 40 hours a week will get paid time and half, except Firefighters and anyone who is working in this Country without a Green Card , or Visa. If a firefighter is making six figures, then he or she is working a lot of overtime. That Firefighter would be working 14 days a month( 24 hour shifts). A firefighter must work 336 hours a month to see six figures. I am sure all the Firefighters would rather work 40 hours a week, and get paid time and a half for for any extra hours. This would also make a lot of people happy, knowing that firefighters are not getting paid for that two to four hours of broken sleep ever night.
I have always been told that a business saves money on paying overtime vs hiring new employees. A lot of people argue about this point. This can be proven, so can someone please settle this!
I am not sure how much money a Firefighter should get paid. I know my Husband makes less than my uncle who is a 21 dealer, my brother who is tile setter, and myself who is a cocktail server.
I know there are thousands of people who are alive today, because of our local Firefighters actions. How many life's have you saved? How many times have you put your life on the line? How much would you pay to have a Firefighter risk his or her life to go inside and your burning house and save your love ones? How much would you pay to have your loved ones saved in a medical emergency?
Everyone forgets how our local Firefighters and Police Officers put their lives on the line, in till one of them dies in the line of duty, or they save you or one of your love ones.
Well said lasvegas!
future RN, it appears we must've touched a nerve. now you wouldn't happen to be married to or engaged to or the child of a firefighter would u? perhaps my estimate of a 40% pay cut being more in line with real world market reality was off, it was just an estimate. however, the point of this entire discussion seems to be forgotten. in this time of economic uncertainty, when many people are losing their jobs, or if not, often dealing with a huge cut in pay, the firefighters ARE TRYING TO GET MORE MONEY. and it is published data in the press that states the MAJORITY of firefighters in this city make a 6 figure income, not just a few senior commanders. and this doesn't even count the huge value of the comprehensive benefits package that firefighters receive.
Do you not believe at all in the power of capitalism and the free market? I don't think I was too far off in estimating there would still be a surplus of qualified applicants if firefighters pay were cut to the same level as say..... police pay...... or RN pay. it would be wonderful if we could all make tons of money, but it has to come from somewhere. that somewhere is our taxes. as a 10 year military veteran, I agree it would be great if the military were paid more, but saying so ain't gonna make it so. Just as part of service in the military is the pride from wearing the uniform of soldier, airman, marine or sailor, there are many who would serve as firefighters for a similar pride in profession, and the camaraderie and lifestyle it entails. those parts of the job make it much more attractive for many than a more routine type of job.
Many would find a job where they can go to the gym and work out while on duty great! so while your portrayal of every day in the firehouse being a grueling battle with life and death while getting only 2-3 hours, or no sleep, is very compelling and romantic, the truth lies to a less extreme daily shift. and as you seem to be quite informed on the firefighting profession, perhaps you can comment on the mortality rate HERE IN LAS VEGAS, with all our modern construction and state of the art fire suppression in multistory buildings. so I stick to may assertion that the job is no where near as dangerous as the others I listed, and I'll even include a few others, like roofers, iron workers, electric power grid installers, miners, lumberjacks, and the list goes on. I added taxi drivers not for heroism, although I note your condescending tone and derision of that occupation, but because it is widely considered one of the most dangerous occupations as taxi drivers are so often targeted for crime, often violent robbery and assault.
Bottom line, in this time of recession, I can not see how the firefighters or their representatives, who are already making 2 to 3 times the median income in Clark County, can ASK FOR MORE.
The point of this article should be the point of this discussion, but it seems that everyone gets off point! The firefighters are asking for more benefits as far as cancer goes. You can say whatever you want, the fact of the matter is there is an increasing amount of firefighters being diagnosed with cancer and is it weird that most of the recent cancer cases are thyroid cancer? I don't think it's coincidence. If any other profession was "inured" on the job, they would be compensated for it right? Well consider this an injury on the job. These firefighters are around cancer causing agents all the time and you think it's weird that they're asking for benefits when diagnosed with cancer, a life threatening disease? Have you struck a nerve, ya you have. I have no relation to any firefighter, I just don't think that they're asking for too much in this case. It is very sad that this cancer is affecting the lives of young men and women and all you can do is put them down and act like you know what you're talking about. Where do you get your information as far as what the life and shift of a firefighter is like? Is it first hand knowledge? I'm guessing not! I dare you to go to a busy station in this city and see what their day is like. See how many times they get up in the middle of the night. See if you can hack it, because my guess is you wouldn't be able to. You want me to comment on the mortality rate? Like I said, the incidence of cancer among firefighters continually increases, not to mention the fact that they already have a below average life expectancy. Just because the firefighters aren't dying in fires doesn't mean that their not dying of other job related things that you probably never hear of. Those that don't die of the cancer they are diagnosed with are usually unable to resume their normal lives when they are all done being put through chemo. By the way, what exactly do you think the median income in clark county is? I've done my research and in Las Vegas, the median income is right around $60,000 per year and that's current as of 2009. This article isn't even about a pay raise, it's about an increase in benefits if a firefighter gets cancer. Hhhmmmm a little heartless!
Joe,
I can't believe that you are comparing fisherman, taxi drivers, to a professional firefighter. Fire fighting is one of the most physical jobs you can do, and is also one of the most stressful jobs as well. We have to be able to wear 75 pounds of protective equipment and work. We work in the worst conditions you could imagine, from extreme heat to winter nights 30F temperature. We also must provide all types of medical treatment. We handle babies that are in cardiac arrest to older CHF patients who are drowning in their on fluids. We are also the ones who are working on the dark streets getting someone out of their crushed vehicle in the middle of traffic. We respond to hazard material calls, and every other problem you can think of. The reason why we don't have is many injuries is because we train, and we are always thinking safety! Safety is the key to our survival, and that's what we live by. Many of the other jobs you brought up don't require a high school GED, or drug testing.
You keep writing that firefighters get paid too much. My wife wrote an article stating that her uncle (21 dealer), brother (tile setter), and herself (cocktail server) make more money than a firefighter.
You keep saying that we make too much money, so I made some phone calls to see what these more dangerous jobs are making.
UMC ER Nurse: $23-$35 hour.
Metro Police Officer: $30-$37.90 hour
Union Electrician: $ 32 hour
Union Painter: $24(journeyman) - $45.62 hour
Carpenter: $17.37-$34.73
Elevator Mechanic: $22.00(first 2 years) - $44.10
Firefighter $15.47-$25.48 hour (LOWEST PAID)
There is one thing you do have correct, and that is the fact some of these jobs relate to our work. Our paramedics have the same amount of schooling as a registered nurse. Paramedics give medications, and provide advance life support. Paramedics perform EKG's, endotracheal intubation, needle cricothyroidotmy, needle chest decompression. These are procedures that only doctors can perform. We put ourselves in dangerous situations responding to gun shot victims, stabbing, and domestic violence. We respond to calls driving code 3, lights and sirens. There have been many firefighters involved in accidents, and some have paralyzed and killed. We work around high voltage down power lines, and must use extreme caution in working fires that have back up power source. We must be familiar with building construction to fight fire, and to perform search and rescue in a collapse or partial collapse building. We must be able to rescue people from elevators, which could be extremely dangerous depending on what type of rescue used.
I am sorry that I can not compare myself to a fisherman or taxi driver. Wait, I can compare taxi driver. A taxi driver must know his way around the city, and so do Firefighters. Firefighters must be able to read a map and get to a call using the fastest route possible. I am not sure what a taxi driver makes.
Joe
I am sorry that the County saves a lot of money, by paying us overtime. I know you would feel better if the County hired more Firefighters and raised your taxes. You would rather pay higher taxes, just because it drives you insane that some of us are making over six figures. Only half of the firefighters I know are even working overtime, if that makes you feel better.
Thanks future RN for your support.
Average Joe,
Get the facts!
read the current article "State may add to current cost of firefighters".
the MEDIAN salary for a Clark County firefighter is OVER $120,000.00 per year. for those unsure of statistical terms, this means that half of the firefighters here make less than this amount, half of them make more. this is a much more accurate barometer or measure of the true pay received by clark county firefighters, much more accurate than "average", which can be widely skewed by just a few really high, or really low pay amounts.
I GOT THE FACTS!!!
No matter what the pay, the city is still saving money by the overtime worked that contributes to their increased salaries as opposed to the hiring of new firefighters.
IF that is true, why is it that EVERY OTHER MAJOR CITY in the United States can have a well trained professional fire department, and keep their salary costs more or less in line with other firefighters across the country, ie - the median pay for all firefighters in this country is about 40% LESS than what clark county firefighters are paid.
By what type of fuzzy math do you consider this a savings of taxpayer's money?
Average Joe is at it again. I've figured it out, you like to get a rise out of people with the same inaccurate information. When you were asked to get your facts straight you stated that CCFD's medium salary is $120,000 without identifying what makes up this figure. You also like to constantly throw out the 40% figure. But unfortunately you do not understand (or you choose to ignore) the meaning of these figures. I have tried to help you understand but you obviously are not concerned with the truth. So keep on stating the same old inaccurate numbers as the whole fact and ignore their true meaning. You have great company. The news media and the Chamber of Commerce love doing the same thing.
ctoe,
go to yahoo news search.
search "firefighters state pay"
you will find the article from last weekends Sun,
"STATE MAY ADD TO CURRENT COST OF FIREFIGHTERS".
I do not make up figures. you are a public employee. the amount that is paid to you as a public employee is widely available public data. you can read yourself that the average median (not medium) salary, counting all allowances, is $123,000 for clark county firefighters. this factors in all of your "special pays", as you and future RN like to quote your "base pay" only.
On top of this, you have benefits and a retirement package that is only rivaled by long time american auto workers in the UAW. AND THAT IS LARGELY WHY OUR US AUTOMAKERS ARE EITHER IN BANKRUPTCY, OR ON THE VERGE OF IT.
Special pays meaning overtime? Should they not be compensated when they work well over their 24 hour shift? Should they work for free so you can stop whining?
They're so lucky that they get that awesome retirement package that they are able to enjoy for an average of 6 years before they die. How thick is your head? Do you not understand that their pay is increased largely due to the overtime that in the end saves the tax payers money? You will never understand that will you Joe?
future RN, your inability to read through and understand statistics makes me wonder if you will ever be more than a "future" RN. I have neither the time nor inclination to teach you how to critically read and comprehend "average life span" statistics.
and all of your romantic notions of firefighters out saving lives and battling 5 alarm fires for 96 hours straight before they are relieved to pass out in their racks and sleep until their next 96 hour shift! as a prior soldier I know what it is like to function for days with minimal sleep. but if you believe that firefighters are getting little or no sleep during their shifts you really are a fool. if they were not getting plenty of rest and sleep, THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO WORK THESE TYPES OF SHIFTS BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE DANGEROUS BOTH TO THEMSELVES AND TO THE PUBLIC THEY SERVE. this is why police aren't "allowed" the type of overtime our firefighters rack up. this is also why there is virtually NO TURNOVER in our local fire departments. to put it quite simply, LIFE IS GOOD for our firefighters. they are the ones who are screwing themselves and creating this public backlash by continuing to ask for more and more, all the while (as Vulcan posted in another thread) cramming their "I am a firefighter hero" bravado down us taxpaying citizen's throats as they cruise around in their $50,000 ego trucks.
and your contention that they are saving us taxpayers money? that is precisely because their benefits and retirement packages are so out of whack with the real world!!! as it stands, a firefighter can put in his 30 years, retire at or around the age of 50, and receive a pension of over $100,000 per year, PLUS full medical benefits, for the rest of his life!
a true hero, someone who spends 30 years in the military and rises to either the top enlisted rank or midlevel officer rank, will pull in LESS THAN HALF of that pension after 30 years of sacraficing more and getting paid less.
perhaps someday, if you are able to complete your education and get yourself a well paying job and you have a home and family to care for, you might understand what those of us now carrying the huge tax burden in this country are feeling. but I doubt you will change on this issue, as your comments all make it clear you are both irrational and emotional. and NOBODY who has read your posts believes you to be an unbiased observer, with no ties to any firefighters.
Special pays meaning:
Premium pay
Longevity pay
Holiday pay
Vacation pay
Sick pay
clothing and linen allowances
and finally, overtime pay
Average Joe,
I went online, and made phone calls to see what everyone is making. Firefighters are the lowest paid! $15.47-$25.48. You just don't get it! Add the hours, it equals three full time jobs! Put us all on 8 hours schedule and see how much more money is will cost all the tax payers. And when we go on 8 hours, they better pay us as much is a police officer or nurse. You keep writing that anyone can do our job, and that is so false. We provide firefighting and Advanced Life Support EMS service. I am sure there people who would volunteer. I would volunteer to be a fighter pilot, but it does not mean that I am qualified. I am trained on the best firefighting strategies, and on the the most advanced pre hospital medical care.
You keep brining up how the military is underpaid. I have friends who are in the military who are making over six figures. You should have went to special training classes, such as para rescue, SFNG, and you could have made over six figures to. These guys have put them self through more classes than boot camp, and are always training. They also get to sleep while they get paid. You start to add up their scuba diving, sky diving, paramedic, weapons specialist, they make over six figures. They deserve every penny!!!! I am sure you could find volunteers, but it do you really think they are going to get the job done?
Average Joe,
Why don't you do a ride along with any one of our local Fire Departments. Did you know the Clark County Fire Station 18, and City Of las Vegas Fire Station 1, are always in the top 5 for running the most calls in the United States. Thats right United States!!!!!!!!!!
Average Joe,
What do you do?
Have you ever tested for the fire department?
Do you work for the County, or City?
Average Joe,
Did you know that all Clark County employees get "special pay".
I worked for the county prior to getting on the Fire Department. I got everything you listed, except clothing allowance... My uniforms were provided.
1. Premium pay. I made an extra for working graveyard 11PM in till 7AM.
2. Longevity
3. Vacation
4. Sick
5. OT for working more than 40 hours a week, not 56 hours.
All County and City Jobs have this! sorry
Joe,
We are not allowed two work 96 hours. We can work up to 72 hours, then we must have 24 hours off. They have done studies , and found that working 96 hours causes people to have bad judgment, and performance. The military did the study.
To be honest a lot of firefighters will not work 72 hours, unless they are forced to. We do have some slower stations that we might get more sleep and be able to. If you are at a busy station and only have four hours of sleep for two days and have to work another 24 hours. It's hard to function, and I wish they didn't allow it.
I tested for the Fire Department for seven years. I got my associate degree in fire science, and paramedicine degree, before being hired. When I started testing their were no Firefighters making over $50,00 a year. They didn't have the overtime in till the city starting growing in 2002. Most Fire Fighters had side jobs working as EMT's for the private ambulance company, or construction job. Once the City started to grow , the Fire Departments were behind, and started a lot of OT. Did I ever plan on making over $100,000 a year...NO! The citizens and visitors of Southern Nevada need 24 hours of fire protection protection, and medical help, if needed. The Fire Department does this, buy having a 5 min response time with Advance LIfe Support. Every Fire Engine and Rescue have at least one Firefighter/Paramedic. If the County or City would save money buy hiring more Firefighters they would. My OT does not go to my retirement, only my base pay. The County pays for my retirement and health benefits , that are a huge part of my cost.
JOE,
Math
Option #1
Firefighter A -works 10 days month, then 5 days of OT.
Firefighter B- works 10 days a month, then 5 days of OT
Firefighters A & B made $200,000 year together, but will only get 75% of their base pay after they retire. Each Firefighter get approximately $13,000 for dental/ medical, $30,000 for retirement.
Tax payers pays $ 144,000. for each Firefighter, then $100,000 after they retire.
Option #2
Firefighter A-works ten days month, no OT.
Firefighter B-works ten days a month no OT.
Hire Firefighter C-works ten days a month , no OT
Tax payers pay $118,000 for each fire fighter, then $150,000 after they retire.
Option A = Pay both Firefighters $288,000. with benefits , then $100,000, after they retire. 30 years x $288,000= $8,640,000.00 dollars for two Firefighters working OT, then $100,000. for their retirement.
Option B=Pay all three Firefighters $354,000.00, with benefits, then $150,000, after they retire. 30 years x $354,000=$10,620,000 dollars for three firefighters working no OT, then $150,000 a year after they retire.
The tax payers save $1,980,000.00 over 30 years by paying two firefighter OT working a third Firefighters hours. Then Tax payers save $50,000 a year after they retire.
This is based on all three firefighters base salary at $75,000 a year, for 30 years.
SAVE $1,980,000.00 OVER 30 YEARS BUY GIVING TWO FIREFIGHTERS THE HOURS OF THE THIRD.
YOU REALLY WANT TO HIRE ANOTHER 40 FIREFIGHTERS, TO STOP OVERTIME?
Joe,
I forgot to add the additional $40,000 a year for clothing, and training. I am not sure the dollar amount for an academy, although it is a lot of money.
lasvegas, don't waste your time, when presented with facts, Joe doesn't know how to respond. He will only respond with random numbers and opinions and anything negative he possibly think of even if there is no basis!