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Sunday, March 14, 2010 | 3 a.m.
OUT SICK, A LOT
In 2009, Las Vegas firefighters were scheduled to work 3,024 hours (24-hour shifts), but on average they used 203 hours for sick leave. In contrast, nonfire city employees were to work 2,160 hours, but used 85 hours for sick leave. This does not include time off for vacations.
Oscar Goodman
Gary Reese
Steve Sisolak
Sun archives
- Clark County firefighters profit from sick leave policy (3-7-2010)
- Commissioner offers pared Metro budget as example for others (2-25-2010)
- Horrible county budget outlook worsens, tough decisions loom (1-20-2010)
- Town hall on budget shows which side is which (1-14-2010)
- Clark County priorities panel meeting in Las Vegas (12-16-2009)
- ‘Longevity pay’ costs millions in county (12-10-2009)
- Firefighters feeling budget backlash (5-28-2009)
- County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
- Shortfall looms large as fire union holds out (4-23-2009)
- It pays EMTs to do I's and cross T's (4-22-2009)
- No concessions yet from firefighters (4-12-2009)
Las Vegas firefighters use about 60 percent more sick leave than other city employees, according to figures obtained by the Sun.
Those numbers parallel a recent Clark County compensation study showing county firefighters call in sick almost twice as often as rank-and-file employees and about four times the rate of management.
Elected officials and the public have reacted strongly to the Sun’s findings published last week. Clark County Commissioner Steve Sisolak said the figures show county firefighters are gaming the payroll system because those calling in sick are replaced by colleagues who are paid overtime.
The city has a similar pay structure, although a city spokeswoman said the Fire Department employs six “rovers” who fill in for sick firefighters at the regular hourly rate, not overtime. Any additional openings, however, are filled by firefighters who are paid overtime.
“If I knew something similar (to the county) was happening at the city, I most certainly would do something about it,” Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman said during an interview Friday on KNPR 88.9-FM’s “State of Nevada” program. After learning later in the day that the Sun had, in fact, found something similar at the city, Goodman said he would “look into it.”
Las Vegas Councilman Gary Reese, a potential candidate for mayor in 2011, said he has a “strong opinion” about what’s going on in the Fire Department, but ongoing contract negotiations with their union prohibit him from commenting. “I respect the negotiation process,” he added.
The figures showed the following:
City firefighters were scheduled to work 3,024 hours in 2009. (Firefighters work 10 shifts of 24 hours each month. In 2009, they had one extra pay period.) They averaged 203 hours of sick leave during the year — equal to a little less than one month of work time. When sick leave was combined with vacation time, city firefighters averaged 534 hours off — equal to a little more than two months, or 18 percent of their work time.
Meanwhile, all other city employees, who are scheduled to work 2,160 hours a year, averaged about 85 hours of sick leave, or a bit more than two weeks off. Combined sick leave and vacation time for rank-and-file city workers totaled 219 hours — a little more than a month, or 10 percent of their work time.
After reviewing the numbers, Dean Fletcher, president of the city firefighters union, found fault with the comparison of hours instead of shifts. Because firefighters work 24-hour shifts, he said, they are naturally going to accumulate more hours off when they call in sick for a day than rank-and-file city employees who work eight-hour days.
When shifts are compared, firefighters’ time off averages 8.5 shifts a year versus 10.5 for other city employees, he said. “That’s the only fair way to make a comparison.”
Still, as a share of their total hours, firefighters’ sick leave is considerably higher, on average.
The discussion of overtime and other labor costs comes as the city and county face unprecedented budget deficits.
Last week, Goodman asked city staff to examine the legality of firing all city employees and then rehiring them at lower pay. Otherwise, the city is threatening to lay off 146 employees to save $70 million.
At the county, the outlook isn’t much better. Staff have projected a budget deficit of up to $200 million in the fiscal year beginning July 1.
Sisolak plans to request an audit or investigation of the Clark County Fire Department’s payroll system, but said he will wait until contract negotiations are complete.
“It wouldn’t be fair to both sides to bring up an audit or investigation while they are trying to work out a contract,” he said.
But Sisolak said his interest in the matter has been heightened by the hundreds of phone calls he has received over the past week. Even during a funeral he attended, people approached him to say how upset they were about firefighters’ time off and compensation.
“People are simply fed up,” he said. “At a time like this, when so many are out of work, some of the pay schedules we have in place don’t sit well with the public.”
This is not only with firefighters and only a Las Vegas problem. Our community and state workers have the worst attendance of any business. In fact our school district has reportd that the staff miss up to 42% of the days they are scheduled. This abuse of time off is a game that is played by those who are protected by powerful unions and by lobby money who pay those involved to keep quiet. They state that the time is given to them to take so why not take it, whether legit or not. We have seen our local workers call in sick and then found playing golf or fishing. Let this abuse occur in a private business and see how fast your shown the door. Then throw in the fact that in some states the public workers dont pay for their health insurance, I know people who go to doctors just to get a diagnosis for the slightest thing and then go on sick leave or FMLA.
Again it is a game that is taught to the newbies during their first days of work and then abused once they get it down to an artform.
I think things will be changing though because there is a lack of funding and money to sustain such abuse, if someone is really sick then yes stay home.
p
It seems we have alot of very sick and unhealthy firefighters here in Las Vegas. How are they able to do this supposedly "dangerous" job being so sick and unhealthy? The ones I see at the gym look okay to me.
"Again it is a game that is taught to the newbies during their first days of work and then abused once they get it down to an artform."
Pele, are you a government worker? You speak with such authority, or are you just shooting from the hip?
Amazing how the article was about abuse of city firefighters and with a broad brush, Pele includes all employees (city, county, state and federal). Way to go Pele.
Firefighters have carried their scam on the system way too far. By refusing to help with the cities financial crisis they have drawn attention to their pay ($1000.00 a shift if they are only working 100 shifts per month), their benefits (work till 50 and take your highest pay home for life), their scams (sick leave, paying for doing paper work, etc.) and their jobs.
The people of Las Vegas cannot afford to support you in the lifestyle you have become accustom. The city should slash the rates paid for fire protection. The problem is they make such huge contributions to politicians that want their money, their endorsements, and their support working on elections.
If the public employee unions support a candidate, vote for the other person.
After 9/11 they were thought as heroes now they are despised as greedy money grubbers go figure.
Once people can move past the blind "hero worship" we can reign in the bloated payouts we're seeing to the Firefighters. Yes, there are some very commendable men & women working in this department, but there are also many immature and downright sleazy ones that got into the job for the pay and entitlement it brings.
Who was endorsed by firefighters or public employees in the past? Vote them out.
If management had any brains they would take trucks out of service for a shift once they had used up the six replacement firefighters. This is very common in most cities. It doesn't take to many brains to figure out what's going on in the department.
I think it actually makes sense that the fire fighters use more sick time, considering they work 24 hour shifts, not 8 hour shifts.
If somone with an eight hour shift gets sick and needs a day off, they use eight hours of sick time to get an entire 24 hours of rest-time, assuming that they have the same start time everyday.
If a fire fighter with a 24 hour shift gets sick and needs a day off, they need to use 24 hours of sick time to get that same amount of rest-time.
People get sick, even fire fighters. The fact that they use more sick time than the aveage govt. employee seems to be the product of 24 hour shifts, not of fire fighters trying to manipulate the system to milk as much money from us as possible.
Just my 2 cents
Dcid
gimme a break dcid. I've been a firefighter for 32 years and now in fire management. Our city firefighter sick leave averages 60 hours per year not 203 and we have 24 hour shifts also.
This is all too common of a story. Why is it that Oscar Goodman and Steve Sisolak are the only two elected officials with the guts to stand up and say something? Where is everyone else? These officials were elected to represent us and they dropped the ball. They need to follow the lead of Goodman and Sisolak.
Maybe if people wake up, we can put an end to this once and for all.
How about no OT and only comp time? This way the firefighters get a salary and the time off they need for working all that extra OT. Also, what other job gets paid in full for sleeping? After 10 hours, the last 14 are at a minuscule on-call status and only get called for actual fires. These contract have no incentive to not abuse sick leave, allow a 50% payback or early retirement for hours and less abuse will occur.
Something needs to be done about the greedy fire fighters. Maybe the mayor has the right idea, fire them. Just like President Reagan and the air traffic controlers. As a retired pilot, I remember all too well. But we did get through it and the air traffic control system is better today.
They deserve it. period.
You want to bitch about something try comparing it to the upper level of Governments attendance record.
Firefighters have a great job with lots of respect from the community. Unless you are a battalion chief, there is no way an individual firefighter is worth over 100k a year. If you are a paramedic with over ten years experience you should make 80K.
Firefighters should not be paid more than cops, who are the real first responders.
Oh and Acesbet, we'll get to the government management too.
I don't understand why we need this much firefighters anyway. They spend more time shopping at Smiths and Vons than fighting fires. I am curious to know how much actual firefighting they do and determine how many firefighters we need.
The amount of pay firefighters receive here compared to teachers really makes me angry.
However, fair is fair. Your headline is screaming one thing, but buried well into the story is this:
'Because firefighters work 24-hour shifts, he said, they are naturally going to accumulate more hours off when they call in sick for a day than rank-and-file city employees who work eight-hour days.
When shifts are compared, firefighters' time off averages 8.5 shifts a year versus 10.5 for other city employees, he said. "That's the only fair way to make a comparison." '
That seems to show that firefighters call in sick less frequently than other city employees.
Come on, be good journalists or shut down and leave us to the other rag that's already anti-government and anti-union.
When are we going to hear from Rory Reid on this issue? Rory, the sick leave/OT abuse in the County FD has gotten way out of hand and you need to tell us how you are going to correct it. After all, this is your jurisdiction isn't it???
You want to be our next governor yet, your silence is deafening...
I feel bad for the low seniority fireman I watched the other day. He had to lug 2, yes 2 tubs of Pollo Loco chicken to the firetruck. You know, the giant truck with tinted windows so we don't know how many loafers are in the truck. He could have fallen, and had to take sick leave.
This has got to stop.
Nothing is going to happen.
But the City and County firefighters will continue to rob the taxpayers.
The leadership are afraid of the unions.
It is all a dog and pony show.
firemen should make $50-$75k...
tops...
period...
end of stroy...
fire them all...
and replace them...
if reagan could fire the air traffic controllers...
we sure as hell can fire firemen...
in this economy...
they'll be replaced in a week...
period...
end of story...
Part of the answer is to ditch the 24 hr shifts in favor of 12. No human can be sharp for 24 hours in a row anyway. With 12's, no more sleep time built in.
Hey dantanna, What is the other part??. Do not keep us waiting too long...
@ UNLVGrad...Didn't have a problem with firemen then did you?
ENDORSEMENTS
Steve Sisolak knows how important his community is-that's why he's been so involved.
Steve Sisolak is proud to receive the endorsements of the following organizations:
Bartenders Union Local 165 and Culinary Union Local 226
CCEA (Clark County Education Association)
Clark County Fire Fighters 1908
Fraternal Order of Police, Las Vegas Lodge 1
IBEW local 357
Las Vegas City Life
Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Managers & Supervisors Association (PMSA)
Las Vegas Sun
Mesquite Daily News
NSEA (Nevada State Education Association)
Plumbers and Pipefitters Local 525
SEIU Local 1107
Southern Nevada Central Labor Council
Southwest Regional Council of Carpeters
Teamsters Local 14
This paper along with the RJ are in the pockets of the Las Vegas Chamber of commerce who cant stand firefighters or unions in general. Its no wonder the paper has a relentless attack. When is the truth going to come out? The FF's have made consessions, just not to Oscar and Betsy's liking. They have made up the shortfalls to save jobs. The city want's 8% period X 2 Years with no guarantee that more people will not be laid off. NO GUARANTEE! Why wont the city put that in writing? I will tell you why, This is all about Oscar building his new city hall palace, Its not about the bottom line dollar. The creditors wont give the city the Best bond rating unless these overall concessions are made, and exactly these concessions period! This is all about building a new city hall, A mob museum, and a stadium on the backs of city employees footing the note! Why isnt the paper reporting this, because it the truth, that's why!
Ummm, less sick time used when calling off work ? Did I pass?
HL9000 aka firefighter or related.
The concessions made by the fire fighters are what? A decrease in the raise they actually still receive? At least building a new city hall may create some jobs and a museum and a stadium could generate revenue aand tourism. Maybe you missed the fact, we depend on tourism in this town to survive, not inflated ff salaries. The rest of the city, county and state are suffering, now take some lumps like the heros you claim to be.
HL9000-
There is no two year guarantees for anyone else in America. Stop being a pig.
Chooch, if there is a figure to be met, a bottom line dollar from the city, and the union meets this, why does it matter? You are blinded by overall wages, and I can understand that with the way the paper is portraying. You hear something enough times, and you start to believe it. Again if 8% is made up by given back allowances or other benefits, which reduce overall costs, why do you still only want to see salaries reduced? You cant see past this I guess...
Hey dantanna, nope need more facts before I present your savings package to the chief and council...
Short fat hairy, So the 8% is given back this year, then oops were sorry were still gonna lay people off. Next Year 8% is given back again, oops will still gonna lay people off. The city wants the 8% reduction in writing, why cant the union have it in writing also? Your not seeing the big overall picture...Quit being blinded, think outside the narrow box for once...
Enough already. Get these thugs off the road. 100,000 paid by tax payers! People should be out in the streets protesting for REAl change.
Jealousy, jealousy, jealousy. Again the weak, meak and mild are crying about what? If you people think this is so unfair, try and get a job with the fire departmant, you'll figure out in no time how easy it is.
A very good friend of mine was a firefighter in Los Angeles, he lost his life working for and saving the people. Yeah he was a very greedy man. His mom and sister fell apart at the ceremonies. Yeah he was a very greedy man. His heroism will always be remembered. I don't think they are paid enough. You people should learn how to quit your whining. It doesn't do a thing for your personalities.
A firefighter works 10.5 shifts per month, or about one 24 hr shift every 3 days. If the average city worker took 2 weeks (80 hrs) off sick, and gets sick 4 times per year (20hrs, 2.5 days per sick incident), that means the fire fighter who gets sick 4 times per year (just like the rest of us) will have taken 96 hours of sick time off per year instead of 80, an increase of 20%. Instead the records show an increase of 60%. Perhaps they all aren't gaming the system, but considering that fire fighters are in shape and supposed to be in better health than the average person (I haven't factored that in either), then its likely there is some abuse or funny business going on.
It's not enough for them to only work a few days a week and get paid for sleeping during their 24 hour shifts.....embarassing!!
HL9000, there is no money to pay for anything. No one has money.
BTW, I'm all for increasing the taxes on gold coming out of the Carlin trend, as long as it doesn't bankrupt the companies.
Fremma, it's true that firefighting is a dangerous job and they are needed for public safety. They get plenty of respect and thanks for people. They shouldn't cheat on sick pay and they should be glad they had a few years of making great money. It's tough times all over.
It is not my habit to repeat my previous comments, but there really is only one word for this happenstance...DUH!
I am feeling especially verbose today, so I will revise my comment...DUH, YA THINK?
Mr. Schoenmann must have been close to deadline. He called and asked for information on this subject. He was furnished the facts and still chose not to publish them. I guess it would have meant rewriting the story with a different ending than he had already planned. He was shown that firefighters may use more sick time hours but still less in overall sick days than when compared to the other city employees that use sick 8 hours at a time instead of 24 hours at a time. He also was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members. The Federal law that applies to all workers in the US. He conveniently left that information out. I guess it was too close to deadline and he didn't want to change the story to actually reflect the facts. Silly facts always get in the way of creating a story with a predetermined ending. In the old days they used to call that Yellow Journalism!
Teacher,
most often I agree with your posts, but you too have fallen victim to the firefighter "hero-worship" that has allowed these kinds of abuses.
these are by and large young healthy guys. how come they are sick so often? they aren't. they're gaming the system.
and this also highlights another abuse. the number of sick shifts being compared to OTHER government workers (teachers included) who ALL take MUCH more "sick" time than workers in the private sector.
I have missed 3 days from work in the last 7 years. and yes I do exercise and am in better health than most for my age, JUST LIKE FIREFIGHTERS ARE. only difference is I don't have a fat cushy government contract job to abuse.
and you should have read this post by loosemoose which sums it up quite well:
"gimme a break dcid. I've been a firefighter for 32 years and now in fire management. Our city firefighter sick leave averages 60 hours per year not 203 and we have 24 hour shifts also."
To rmcallister: Very good points, I was thinking about why that was left out. I wonder how many hours were used for maternity leave for woman, and men to help thier wives with pregnancies.
Some other points that were never brought up were injuries. Mrs Smith gets hurt while off the job, she breaks a bone it her arm, she is back to work on Monday sitting at her desk fulfilling her obligations in a cast, while if you were a FF this would not be obtainable. They are required to be 100% healthy mentally and physically to perform. This is a much higher standard than the everage worker at a desk job!
Our "heroes" have been scamming us for years.
Somebody wanted to know how many fires. BTW, that does not mean that 3,515 structures burnt down or were saved.
Here are CCFD Stats for 2008:
http://fire.co.clark.nv.us/(S(ovu4gh45j5...
122,111 Total Calls
3,515 Fire Incidents, Equals 2.8% of Total Calls.
2,952 False Alarms, Equals 2.4% of Total Calls. Almost as many false alarms calls as fire calls.
Tundra: It was too windy at the lake, guess I could've done that shift trade for ya. Sorry brother, next time.
hlpme,
by pointing out that Sisolak WAS endorsed by firefighters and is NOW shining a bright light on their corruption, you are actually pointing out what a hero Sisolak is!
certainly nobody can question his motives, he's not doing this to "get back" at the union for non-support since they DID support him.
it proves he is doing this because he IS looking out for us, the TAXPAYER.
and by taking a very public stand against a very large, well connected and powerful union, that had endorsed him in the past, he is taking great political risk.
Steve Sisolak is a hero.
you just don't get it do you? you have simply pointed out that he is NOT motivated by political favors or payback. more kudos for Sisolak.
fremmasmind,
you just don't get it do you?
this isn't about firefighters in LosAngeles. THOSE guys, and firefighters in other large metro areas with 100 year old high rise stuctures are the REAL heroes. they have a REAL dangerous job, compared to our local "heroes" who are NEVER killed in a fire in the line of duty. And in other cities where there is real danger, the firefighters work for 1/3 to 1/2 the total compensation of our local "heroes".
this isn't about jealousy.
it's about corruption. it's about us taxpayers getting FLEECED by rampant greed and corruption. local firefighters making a quarter of a million dollars of a year, and MORE. all with NO college education, and several of them making this kind of money while in their twenties!
wake up and smell the scam.
Dean Fletcher, I'll have two bottles of snakeskin oil and a jug of your firewater; what else are you trying to sell -- what is that, you are trying to sell "that's the only fair way to make a comparison" mouse trap.
The proper way is to formulate the problem into (fractional algebra) the lowest common denominator.
In other words, one FF sick day is equal to three city employees' sick days, meaning city employee's used 10.5 days and FF used 25.5 days; if you don't like that angle, here is the other view, city employee's used 3.5 days to the FF 10.5 days, just remember to slice your apples with apples and your oranges with oranges.
I'm sorry what was that, you're a snakeskin oil salesman for the FF union and you're interest lies in getting the most out of negotiations at the taxpayers' expense.
Stop the lies, FF have gotten away with so much in the past, but that was before blogs and the internet at large, people are becoming more informed with the ways in which unscrupulous people have skimmed the cream off of taxpayers.
I have said it before and will say it again; politics have changed since the advent of the internet. Folks no longer have to find time to rally around the flag pole, the proverbial flag pole sits at everyone's lap-top or pc. On any given day, issues are more openly discussed by more people from near and far than at any other time in history because of the internet, this medium of communication has forever changed mankind's ability to gather knowledge.
and your right its NOT easy to get a job with the fire department here in Vegas.
that is, unless your daddy or uncle or brother are already on the department, in which case you get a golden pass.
it's called nepotism and it too is running rampant along with the corruption and greed in our local fire departments.
It's FRAUD and THEFT of YOUR money.
To: By just an average joe, Its commendable about your lack of sick time use. But let me ask you this, how many times last year were you exposed to every flu going around at the current time? To include H1N1, Hepatitis, Meningitis, Blood exposures, Ect. Plus, Knowing something about the human body, Immune systems are very much compromised with sleep deprivation. Its makes you much more succeptable to illness. Yah, not all firehouses are busy at night, but the majority never sleep all night long...
It's FRAUD and THEFT of YOUR money.
And you're an IDIOT or a LIAR if you can't see the obvious....
The more interesting question is whether firefighters also have a larger number of worker's compensation claims (after adjusting for 24 hr versus 8 hr shifts) than other employees. I would imagine they would--given the nature of their job, which requires they run into burning buildings with unsafe flooring and frequently exposes them to toxic fumes, etc. If that hypothesis is proven true, is it that surprising they also have higher levels of sick time?
These guys are worth every cent. They put their lives on the line to protect you and your property. Their family depends on them as well to make a living to bring income into their house hold. Regardless of what you may think the average joe off the street can't accomplish the tasks these guys are trained to do. When your family member is having a medical emergency at 2:00a.m. in the morning the fire department is going to be there. A fire, hazardous material release, high angle rescue, what ever the emergency is the fire department will be there. They are trained to do more than just fight fires, they should be paid well. When a NFL Quarterback throws a good pass, the words that parts your lips is "he's worth every cent" . How can that be, who life have this quarterback saved? Not a single person but it's okay for him to make $10,000,000. You all are backwards, you should be willing to pay those who take care of you. Have anyone thought about the reason why they might be sick is because they cares for those who are sick.
Keep up the Good Work
LVFD
One day these citizens will realize who really cares.
HL9000
gee you're my hero.
a physician is exposed to all of this every day, and on average makes LESS than many of our local "heroes".
the median pay for a family practice physician is $160k per year.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layou...
and before you start telling us you work harder than a physician, don't forget about the 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, then on average 4 years of residency to become a physician.
then on top of the $200k in student loans, they often have to work several years for somebody else at lower pay, so don't start making the kind of money our local firefighter "heroes" make in their twenties, until they are in their FORTIES.
quit pi**ing down our taxpayer backs and telling us its raining.
husbandbr,
obviously you've been drinking the local firefighter "hero" Kool-Aid.
firefighter in every large metro area in the country do all of this and more, because they ACTUALLY have to fight fires in 100+ year old high rise stuctures.
and this is the important part.
they do it for often LESS THAN HALF of what we taxpayers are being forced to pay for our local "heroes".
the corruption and greed here stink to high heaven, so don't try to make this about paying them a living wage to take care of their families. Us taxpayers have to take care of OUR families and we're tired of getting fleeced by our government in the form of our high taxes being frittered away to pay political favors.
Next time you need help try calling the real first responders (police), see how long it takes them to arrive.
Firefighters are the real first responders. I've never seen a police officer arrive on scene before other emergency crews.
This is for Short Fat Hairy
"When a NFL Quarterback throws a good pass, the words that parts your lips is "he's worth every cent" . How can that be, who life have this quarterback saved?"
We're not paying that quarterback's salary with our taxes.
Just an average Joe,
regardless of what we pay the firefighters, your taxes are not going to be any less. They should receive a good salary because if not them somebody else will in the city. At lease it's going to someone who will help you. Not some lying politician.
I think all this paid sick time for public employees is outrageous! Give each employee their vacation time and 5 floaters or "Paid time off" to be used as sick time. No accrued sick time. At the end of the year it expires! Thats how it is in the private sector folks. Get real.
I love coffee,
of course you're not paying the quarterback, with your taxes because everyone supports him. You will volunteer to buy his products are spend $100 on a nose bleed seat just to see him play a game. but when it comes to people who will help you, all you can do is complain.
You all are just jealous....
BOTTOM LINE!
What's the matter ,just-another-joe-blow,Flipping burgers at the local grease pit not exciting enough for you? Gotta find a way to get energized? Why don't you try jogging, it's a good way to get the crap out of your system. Why don't you get all hyped out at our politicians, they are the ones who make the laws, we just abide by the laws. Why don't you tell our elected officials what they are doing wrong. I don't see any firemen getting arrested, so they can't be breaking the law. If they are working and staying between the lines of what you think is "not right", run for office, get elected, then you can change the rules. Until then, you are just talking to hear yourself talk.
Better yet go look in the mirror and argue with yourself you can't lose that battle.
Gunslinger:
That's the great thing about numbers, you can maniputlate them any way you want. But it's quite simple to see from facts in the article that firefighters use 8.46 days of sick leave per year vs. 10.63 for city workers who work an 8 hr shift. (203/24= 8.46, 85/8= 10.63). So the article is blatently incorrect and misleading, but I guess that is the point.
How often is a city worker exposed to HIV, Hep C, TB, MRSA, and every flu virus and parasite known to man? How many city workers work 48-72 hrs (mandatory overtime as the city refuses to hire more people)at a busy station that runs 20-30 calls a shift? Given vegas is a 24 hour town, nights are busier than days so not much chance to sleep. How many city workers are fighting cancer from job related exposure? If a firefighter is undergoing chemo, they can't work and must use sick leave. I guess that makes them a sick leave abuser and they should be fired! And yes, the sick hours used to fight serious illness and injury are included in this 8.46 hr average. If a woman is off on maternimty leave she uses sick leave.......I guess she is robbing the taxpayer as well and should be fired too.
This is once again a biased and incorrect article that fails to provide all the facts. The fact that everyone here believes everything they read and see on the internet is a bit dusturbing to say the least. Yes the internet has changed things: now anyone can sit on their computer all day and read countless pages of incorrect information. Michael Jackson and Elvis are both alive and well.......I read it on the internet so it must be true!
Yes I will keep complaining as long as they are overpaid and gaming the system. Something should also be done about the nepotism problem too.
Well, feel free to complain.
Just remember firefighters make more than you hahahahah!
"Just remember firefighters make more than you hahahahah!"
For now....hahahahaha!
I'm reposting this as it was put perfectly:
Firefighters, law enforcement and emergency personnel are worth every cent they are paid. Their lives are risked on a daily basis for the protection of you and your property. They work for the benefit of their own families with high risk implied.
Regardless of what you assume, the Average Joe off the street typically cannot accomplish that which is asked of firefighters.
When a loved one or neighbor is in the midst of a medical emergency the fire department is going to assist.
A fire, hazardous material release, high angle rescue, what ever the emergency is the fire department will assist. They are trained to do more than just fight fires, they should be paid well. You have no gripes with the salaries of pro athletes? Are they worth what they earn? To their community? You all are ignorant.
Keep up the Good Work. Sincerely, Scottsdale Sun.
LVFD
You'll realize someday who they are
This isn't about jealousy. This isn't about lack of respect. It is about lack of money.
To Average joe, You must "above average" to be hired with the FD. Your name says it all. I bet I have seen you in one of my interviews and you scored "just average". Not good enough!. Keep testing or just walk away , but don't walk away mad. You can always test for Metro..
Short Fat Hairy
I understand the lack of money, but if they didn't pay those guys where will the money go? Will it fix the city problems? Will they give us a tax break? What are their plans for the money in which they will save from not paying the firefighters?
How come North Las Vegas and Henderson were not mentioned?
To insider; No problem, I guess I can just abuse my sick leave hours. Maybe next time....
Your Union Brother?...
Darkhorse:
"miniscule on call status"? You obviously don't get out much. Many parts of the valley are far busier at night than during the day. Are you saying that there are no fires, car accidents, shootings, stabbings, fights, overdoses, heart attacks, strokes, diabetic emergencies, etc, etc, at night? This is Vegas, while you are tucked in bed there is a lot going on.
Short fat hairy:
Per the city website: topped out FF pay= 77K, topped out FF/Medic pay = 88K. Overtime accounts for the bigger salaries. Easy to fix.....hire more employees. Salaries would be lower, employees would work less and use less sick and vacation time. But the city refuses to hire more people because its proven cheaper to pay overtime!
VC: Forcing people to "use or lose" their sick leave leads to more useage. I have allways used less than I earn, and the balance is there in case of serious illness or injury. No one, public or private sector, should be fired simply because they become ill.
Firefighters do abuse the system - ooops, lets call them first responders, as they RARELY fight fires in Las Vegas/Clark County.
They work two days a week, I work five. They have a six day, they then have six days off. I have a sick day, I have three days off. The odds of being six when you work two days a week versus five days a week means you should have significantly fewer days (and hours) off if you work two 24 hour shifts compared to other city/county employees who work a more traditional five day/8 hours a day shift.
The way it works is clear. I give up a shift (and still get paid) by calling in sick. My friend picks up my shift and gets paid overtime. He then calls in sick and I pick up his shift. Result? I work two days a week, one regular, one picked up (all at overtime by the way), and get paid for a third day as sick time.
That is called gaming the system. It is called cheating tax payers. It is prevalent and dishonest. It occurs in Clark County, it occurs in the City of Las Vegas, City of North Las Vegas and City of Henderson.
Lets hope these first responders get a real contract next time up and our city council/county commissioners wake up and share the pain to these protected few in our community.
Thank you Rory for doing a bang up job with the firefighter salaries. Thanks to you there are going to be layoffs at the CCSD to save 120 million when firefighters can take a paycut to what other firefighters are making throughout the nation and no one would have to get laid off. Once again thank you Rory. I guess I broke the mold when I left office. Are there any qualified people out there to lead Nevada?
How about this. The FF Unions can all get together and have a Firemens Ball to raise money, have George Clooney host it and Lionel Rickie write a song, "Stop Raping the Tax Payer", and give all the proceeds back to us taxpayers for these FF's that have been milking and bilking the system.
To Askarii, The public solutions are nothing but entertaining!. The lack of public knowledge never ceases to amaze my. The Fire service requires 24/7 coverage. The RJ and the Sun are just cultivating a mushrom farm (feed em just enough BS and keep em in the dark). The only way you will ever get out of paying overtime will be to shut down stations or brown out units if some is sick or on vacation. But the city leaders will not have it. I say print the signs "Station Closed due to lack of funds". I will be glad to put them up.
Los Angeles is browning out units. It a sign of the times, sadly.
Good idea RRLV1! I love the name of that song! It is so true. They can Stevie Wonder sing it. In my day there was no Wonder or Ritchie.
I like goodmans idea to fire the lot and hire new ones or hire them back at a reduced rate and watch them like a hawk. They have raped the taxpayers long enough. They have taken advantage of the hero worship because of 9-11. pathetic. No one is jealous husband----everyone is fed up. I have seen these guys turn on their lights and sirens along with the paramedics to get through construction zones and pull right into their stations.
The reporter failed to mention an important fact about the LVFR sick leave policy. When a suppression employee calls in sick they are not eligible for any OT for 72 hours. The reporter conveniently left this out of his story so he could portray the firefighters as greedy.
Turn them into 8 or 12 hour shifts. How simple is that? Then re-evaluate their salaries. Then watch them cry. Hard.
In doing some research on auto-immune disease, I came across one study which stated that fire-fighters (nation-wide) seemed to suffer from (and die from) FAR more such medical conditions than other workers. This was confirmed to me (anecdotally) by a local fire captain, who said "we retire earlier, but we don't live long after that". If this is so, and again, this was anecdotal, why begrudge high salaries and generous retirement packages for those who face so much more danger in the long-term?
Anyone have legitimate statistics? Is retirement by age 45 really that appealing if you only live til 55? I hope these questions don't sound too pro-union; I'm not. I just think there's too many citizens out there who think only of the immediate dangers inherent in the work.
@ rmmcalliste & just average joe-
How much money does Oscar Goodman get paid for his Mayoral position? Where is the link to check his salary? Gary Reeses city salary? The starting wage for these "part time" politicians?
Regents, school board trustees, and state legislators do not receive salaries, health insurance and PERS so why do the council and commissioner members?
Why doesn't the Sun scrutinize their compensation?
Effective change always begins at the top.
When or if Oscar Goodman, Rory Reid, Shari Buck and Andy Hafen forgo their salaries, and perks by being volunteer politicians, then they can create a volunteer fire department. What a bunch of HYPOCRYTES.
And average joe is ABSOLUTELY right- Sisolak stepped into this disaster. He is an example of how a politican CAN'T BE bought so he deserves credit. So what if he was endorsed by the fire union? That doesn't mean he is beholden to them. Too bad the other politicans won't follow his lead.
An endorsement is just that, Its not a hancuff for being bought and paid for. Sisolak seems to be the honest and balanced official of the lot.
A lot of these firefighters and/or supporters are confusing working from hanging around in the fire house. I suggest that they pay them minimum wage while hanging around the fire house and $500.00 per hour when they are actually fighting fires. I'm pretty sure we all save a lot of money this way. It's like the high paid plumbers, they only get paid big when they actually work and not hanging around waiting for calls.
I don't blame the firefighters for taking advantage of such a cushy deal. Most folks would do the same.... Sadly it is human nature.
What is stupid is that we let this crap go on so long.
I say fire em all and rehire at half price. We can restaff in less than 24 hours. I bet when faced with reality, most of the current staff would return even at 50% pay.
"The only way you will ever get out of paying overtime will be to shut down stations..."
Really? Why not do as most business does, put em on salary.
I want to hear a rebuttal from Joe Schoenmann:
RMcallister brought up some valid points. There were also several other posts on here that deserve some answers Joe.
Do you have the integrity to give us some answers, or is this why when the editors on here post it is shaded in yellow?
Joe, Just in cast you missed it a few posts back, I copied and pasted it for you: Lets hear a response!
Mr. Schoenmann must have been close to deadline. He called and asked for information on this subject. He was furnished the facts and still chose not to publish them. I guess it would have meant rewriting the story with a different ending than he had already planned. He was shown that firefighters may use more sick time hours but still less in overall sick days than when compared to the other city employees that use sick 8 hours at a time instead of 24 hours at a time. He also was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members. The Federal law that applies to all workers in the US. He conveniently left that information out. I guess it was too close to deadline and he didn't want to change the story to actually reflect the facts. Silly facts always get in the way of creating a story with a predetermined ending. In the old days they used to call that Yellow Journalism!
rmcallister and wisemansaid
Bottomline - Do you deny the fact the the first responder/firefighters milk the system?
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
The city and state are broke. It's time to shake down this firefighter scam!!!!!!!!!!
Askari:
Question-
Wouldn't it be more realistic to make the FF a salaried position rather than an hourly one?
Isn't it true that most FF say the 25.00 an hour pay is low, but you really make the gravy in the OT?
How much is the off shift response payment no one mentions?
How much is mandatory OT pay -- 1.5 or 2 times regular pay?
Deep down in you hearts of hearts, most FF (60 percent) are in that career because of the pay aren't they?
If FF only made one third (25k) of their income, half of them would not be in that occupation would they?
Transportation workers interface with a lot of people who have every sickness or germ imaginable, wouldn't you say, and there isn't a premium in their pay.
Look FF are not breaking the law or their contract, they are just getting all they can out of a poorly written one (from the taxpayers point) which has been like that for many years.
The reason most of the FF jobs that are left unfilled is because the supervisors that hire those jobs want them unfilled, to enrich the remaining FF and themselves visa vi OT.
Thanks to wiseman for informing us about the facts regarding firemen and sick days.
It is now established as a fact that firefighters are milking the system for as much as they can get.
"You might be surprised at what you find."
Your right.... I was very surprised to find out that a Vegas firefighter makes more than a New York City Firefighter.
Fire em all!
Husbandbr said: "regardless of what we pay the firefighters, your taxes are not going to be any less. They should receive a good salary because if not them somebody else will in the city."
that is EXACTLY the attitude that has lead to these outrageous abuses of taxpayers money. you must work for the government, or your wife is a firefighter.
I got news for you. they are receiving FAR MORE than a "good salary". a good salary is what firefighters in other large cities with MORE dangerous jobs and a higher cost of living are receiving. and this is LESS THAN HALF of what we pay our local "heroes."
this is government mandated taxpayer robbery. and YOUR attitude is why there is so much fraud, waste, and abuse in government spending. after all, they are spending "someone else's money", so we should all "look the other way", because "nobody is getting hurt".
Journey
You called it right. These folks are stealing plain and simple. I am not saying they all are, I am sure some if not the majority are not. My guess is most knew about it, and did nothing . For this reason, most should be shown the door, and the ones that were doing the actual stealing, should have their pensions canceled.
hey Tibbs, thats part of the scam. They know they can't get ot for a certain period of time. when their time is up, they're buddy calls in sick and they get the ot. They have it down pat.
they have taken advantage of the system, and the sympathies and gratefulness of the people and everyone is and should be outraged, and hopefully it will be put to a quick halt. This state is suffering,the people are suffering, and here you have an agency that blatantly rips off the people. I am for Goodmans plan. At least he has the balls to even suggest it, which is more than any other kiss a88, bought and paid for elected official.
Tundra:
Still need that shift trade or are ya just gonna call in sick after your party?
Your brother.
BTW:
NV PERS studied the issue of fire fighters only living 5 yrs after retirement and found it to be false. Just ask them, they have the records of who they are paying and how long they've been paying them.
Gunslinger, Most FF's did the job for half of what they make now. Ask anyone with 10 or more years on the job, and they will tell you this. This was before OT of course, and units and stations were shut down or ran unsafely short. I can attest to this myself. OT became mandatory when OSHA and NFPA standards changed years ago. Staffing was then required to be 100% on all units due to laws and regulation changes. This was all put in place to reduce the number of injuries and fatalities on the job. With that being said, Now we have people on here who resent the fact that the FF's policed thier own safety and reduced injuries and fatalities.
Firefighter's are proud of the fact that they dont range in the upper catagories for fatalities anymore. They recognized the need for change and got it implemented. They also pride themselves on training to reduce these figures. Tradition is a hard thing to break in the fire service. East coast firefighting is still battling this even today. This is one reason for the difference in FF deaths from coast to coast, not just the age of buildings.
Now if the Mine workers, loggers, fisherman or whomever else falls into these high catagories for fatalities would learn from thier mistakes, and have the leadership and foresight to fix this, this might be a moot point.
To: Chibcha
If you only go by what is being reported in the paper than I would say yes.
But if the article was written with all the points that were brought up by MCallister and true numbers were changed and reflected I would probably disagree. Now I am not privy to these numbers, but from what it sounds like, Joe failed to mention many facts that should have been calculated and werent. That is why I would personally like him to respond. Why cant anyone else on here see this?
8 to 10 days of sick leave a year for public servants?
Go work in the private sector and you'd be lucky to get 15 days COMBINED vacation and sick leave a year.
Move to a market driven contract and then lets see how really "sick" these folks are.
Is it truly 8 to 10 days? I dont know. Recalculate with proper figures as stated above, and then lets see where the numbers fall to make an educated opinion. You are only believing what you want to believe or read...
Steve, Sounds like you do have something againts LDS, or you wouldnt have posted something so rediculous.
It's been said before, but it seems obvious that they'd have more sick hours due to their long shifts. I think the huge problem is that they get paid more than their regular wage when they make up those days by filling in for someone else. The firefighters and supporters on this board must understand that the opportunity for gaming the system is huge, and many of us have even heard firefighters admit to gaming the system.
From what I understand, there's a long waiting list to become a firefighter, even if you're qualified. If that's the case, and demand is that high, it seems like the city/county could lower the salaries. Not sure why that's not happening. Yes, many have risked their lives, but there's a limit and reasonable answer for everything. Just because you choose to work in a certain field that risks your health, doesn't mean there shouldn't be a limit to their compensation.
Honestly, I'm surprised this is even something worth discussing. Lower the salaries until the demand isn't so high, and don't pay them extra for overtime if they've accumulated sick time and haven't made it up. Not disrespecting anyone or profession, but it just seems like common sense that salaries need to come down.
HL9000, when did OSHA come into being? I remember this agency as far back as the 70's.
The NFPA was formed in 1896 by a group of insurance firm representatives was it not?
I support making a workplace safer and more efficient.
I just see no one wants to address the real numbers as are per the FF contract. People say the story and facts are absurd, yet only a minuscule of what FF make is being discussed.
If the FF contract is like most of mine, there is not telling what is in it without a congressional review.
I am not unsupportive of FF, I just think some government wages are out of pace with the present economy and budget. I do blame contract negotiators for the oversight.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment was off-topic.
If at least 60% of firefighters are LDS then everything is honest. I mean, they don't lie, do they?
To Insider, Are you talking about my retirement party?. No, I think maybe I will just take a vacation day and save my 4,000 plus accured sick hours when I cash out.....
Your union brother??....
Re: Logic Should Rule
...........lol.....Ummm--Ask Hairy Reid about that....
Notice the comments about LDS are being removed...Very interesting.
Just an average Joe,
What have you done today to make a difference? How many people have you helped in your life time? You are jealous over those guys pay. You are probably the same guy who lies on his taxes. Just because you are not getting their pay you are mad.....fine leave the city. Go somewhere else and cry about it or grow up. Get another job that involves helping more than just yourself.
10 vs 8.5 days is the only way to look at it? that is 8.5 out of 120 shifts vs 10 out of 250...Don't try to spin this like it isn't a problem!
LDS runs Vegas, nothing new
Husbandbr it's pieces of work like you that give us Firefighters a bad name. You say things like hahahah firefighters make more than you, what the f is the matter with your head. There is a problem with a few people in the department that give us all a bad name by booking off every five minutes. I knew a firefighter who never had a sick day in 35 years. Antagonizing people with your BS post does not help anything.
I'm a piece of work because I believe in the men and women who are helping us. Well, I'm a great piece of work, I'm still standing by them guys a 100%. The problem is you all not appreciating the people who protects you.
"us firefighters", yeah right!!!
They can still "protect" us (on the two percent of calls they go to that are actually fire), that is not the issue.
The issue is if they are ripping off the taxpayers, and if we can afford to continue paying them six figure salaries with perks and benefits.
The answers are clear - some (many) are manipulating the system and no, we cant afford to continue business as usual.
Husbandbr,
How typical of you firefighters, firefighters families and "groupies" to launch personal attacks on those that would shine a bright light on the rampant corruption and gaming of the taxpayer's dollar that characterizes LasVegas Fire services.
You know nothing about me. I will tell you that I am NOT a public employee, though. That alone makes MY job, MY business. what you crooked PUBLIC SERVANTS fail to realize is that by definition, taking a job in public service makes you accountable to the taxpayers, who have a right to know EVERY single detail about your compensation.
Bottom line, all pay should be determined by supply and demand. If firefighters in much more dangerous cities are willing to do the same job for less than half of what we are being fleeced by our local "heroes", then we have every right as taxpayers to demand that local fire services budgets and pay be slashed.
Just an average Joe,
The only problem I have is these guys are with in the scope of the law. If anyone should be getting pounded it should be the ones who allowed this to happen, the politicians. Not the guys who are protecting us, lets place the blame where it belongs and that is city hall. The people who are sitting at city hall are the only ones who can change this, all I'm asking for is for you all to stop taking all the blame out on the firefighters. I know some people only job is to try to beat the system but not all of them. Some of those guys are during what they should, so why are you pointing your finger at all of them.
Blame the ones who authorized this.
Re: Steve10
Your a disgruntled flunky who has failed the FD test 10 times. Next year you'll be Steve11
Steve10
Yes the Sun being the hypocrites they are, will not tolerate any comment putting my favorite group of hypocrites in a bad light. Take a guess who i am talking about.
Based on that logic Husbandbr, if the next fire union contract has lets say, hmmm, a 40 percent pay cut and elimination of all perks and loopholes, you wont complain one bit?
Lets bring LV union wages in line with other comparable cities - look at fast growing cities who boomed in the last 20-30 years in the west with urban sprawl - Pheonix? So we can get an apples to apples comparison of how tough the job if our first responder/fire folks are - this isnt Chicago, Boston, New York...this is modern construction, low rise buildings, low density...despite a few miles on LV Blvd, this line of work is much easier than Firefighters back east who have to deal with urban problems and construction (100 year old brownstones) that we dont have.
Bottom line - two wrongs dont make a right - YOUR union and OUR politicians allowed this to happen. We can vote the politicians out - will you have the ***** to vote out your union leadership who does nothing but deny and cover up this travesty?
Man up!
Steve, Are you at it again with the LDS thing? Let it go, Keeping all that bundled up is not healthy. Nobody here cares whether you got kicked out of the temple or not! Stick to the topic and leave religion out of this.
Steve, I would love to see your facts on the LDS thing, Where can I find it?
Chibcha,
You have every right to complain, I'm not saying that. but the guys who you are mad at didn't write the rules and regulations. Neither can they change it, I think you all should visit a fire station in your neighborhood and sit down and talk with the guys who are there. I feel like you all can come to a compromise without calling each other names. This is not the way to solve a disagreement. Get to know each other tell them about your concerns and why. You have to be willing understanding of both sides in order to solve a problem like this.
Will someone tell me what LDS is.
Hubandbr
You must be married to one of these low life's.I was a volunteer fireman back east for over 23 years.My father was the towns first chief.He started the volunteer fire dept.Yo want to go head to head with me let's go.
We had to fight chemical dumps,high rise brown stones,old abandon buildings. asbestos buildings,barn fires with live animals in them,river rescue,refinery fires,storms and ect.I had to get up at 3am drive to the fires with my own gas and car and then go to my regular.You don.t have the balls to ask me how much i was paid.Las vegas is by standards a new city.Not the danger one encounters like back east.You have nothing but new two story houses that will burn to the ground by time LV fire responds.As far as having a heart attack I'll take my chances by calling a cab for a $9.00 fare instead of usual $10,000.
Babe there are two kinds of crooks. A regular crook and the one such as the LV FIRE who are nothing but A BUNCH OF CROOKS BEHIND THE LAW.
It does not take $200,000 to roll a hose or play with one or drive around town blowing a horn.So get them off my back.
Husbandbr,
personal injury attorneys are in the scope of the law too. this doesn't mean I have to like them or respect them. in fact, MOST Americans have very little respect for them.
as far as firefighters, they get to enjoy the privileges that go with their professions, along with the camraderie and sense of helping others that is implicit in their jobs, we the public place them on a pedestal reserved for few other professions.
the fact that our local firefighters have by and large taken advantage of our taxpayer generosity, and now thumb their noses at us as they drive around town in their $50,000 trucks with "professional firefighter" tags is disgusting.
"heroes" indeed.
the lot of them should be fired. I am sure in this economy we could find hundreds of experienced firefighters from other cities who are willing to move to LasVegas and work for less than half what these "heroes" are milking us for.
LDS is the Mormon mob that runs Vegas
Volunteer,
We are talking about real firefighters not the ones who drive to fires with red lights on their dash. We are talking about guys who are trained well. Not those who just spray water and save only the chimney. Don't try putting your make believe stories with guys who are real heroes.
Volunteer,
Well said. people like you are who I am referring to when I say firefighters back east are the REAL heroes.
thank you for putting things in perspective for these overpaid crybaby phony LasVegas "heroes".
Chibda,
another awesome post pointing out the same thing! I'm so sick and tired of these local firefighters overplaying the "hero" card.
Re: Volunteer
Don't try to fool these people on here about your heroics as a volunteer. Volunteers are important but please spare us your heroics. Volunteers don't go into the buildings that are burning. You don't wear airpacks, you stand outside the building and spray water on the fire. Tell the truth! Your one of these guys who tell your kids and grandkids how important you were. Your only a legend in your own mind!
Volunteers have had a significant role in the fire service but spare us your BS about the dangers you faced!!!
Editor Joe, Where are you? Still waiting for your response? Let me guess, nobody is moving those puppet strings above you to move your typing hands!
Volunteer, its guys like you that make me thankful to live in a big city and not some back east hick town...
@ just_an_average_joe
Hey just_an_average_joe, what do you you do for a living? You have had the luxury of posting on this topic since 11am. Your job must have quite a bit of time available to comment on other peoples job so relentlessly. Which would also support, "I have missed 3 days from work in the last 7 years." Perhaps you would be willing to trade your position out for a firefighters. Obviously your take on how much FF's make compared to the work they do should be compared to how much you do, compared to how much you make. Care to share?
I cringed everytime I hear comments about the danger these overpaid firemen goes through doing their jobs. This is nothing compared to what the real heros (military) go through in Iraq and Afghanistan and you don't see them complaining about the dangers they go through. You guys see your family and get to go home while these heros spend months or years away from their loves ones protecting us. So stop the BS about how dangerous your job is because there is no sympathy here after finding out how much you get paid.
Volunteer,
"My daddy was the first fire chief at the volunteer station" Well I'm proud of him. Did he get a red light on the dash?
balrog,
apparently I'm striking a nerve with you aren't I?
just as apparently you are unable to intelligently debate this topic.
It sucks to be wrong, don't it?
as I've stated before, I am NOT a public employee (although I did spend half of my adult life in the active duty military - as as unclegig stated, the real heroes are in Iraq and Afghanistan, not playing cards at the local firestation).
so let me again try to make this clear for you.
what I make is MY business. the minute you take a government or public employee job your pay becomes the business of EVERY TAXPAYER.
get it??!!
and it doesn't matter if I make minimum wage flipping burgers or cleaning toilets, or if I own a successful business and make 4 times what these TAXPAYER SUPPORTED PUBLIC EMPLOYEES make.
get it??!!
the jig is up. the public is informed, and we are NOT happy with getting ripped off like this. the gravy train is about to come to a grinding halt, so hold on tight, "heroes".
and Husbandbr,
there you go with more personal attacks, this time on volunteer.
I guess it's all you can do, because in a battle of facts, you are completely defenseless.
because the positions of our local firefighter "heroes" are INDEFENSIBLE.
@ just_an_average_joe
Thanks for proving my point and not answering my question. =) Cheers!
Joe, Seems like the only nerve that is being struck is yours. Nobody else seems to be using CAPITAL letters to make statements on here.
I can see you are very passionate about this, Are you organizing a rally to boycott at the local fire stations?
I certainly did prove your point.
the point is that you just don't get it.
taxpayer supported emloyees are just that, and they are answerable to the taxpayers.
Cheers!
and wisemansaid,
I certainly am passionate about stopping government organized fraud, waste and abuse.
and fortunately I am not alone here. MANY taxpayers are sick and tired of these abuses and systematic looting of public coffers.
along with many recent new articles, George Knapp did an awesome job exposing some of the corruption rampant in our local TAXPAYER SUPPORTED fire service.
watch this: http://www.lasvegasnow.com/global/story....
you can try to spin it any way you want, but the public is waking up.
Below_Average_Joe
My what issues and internal turmoil you must struggle with in your life. You are a simpleton who believes you are the only one that gets it? I'm not a firefighter but I'm not going to hold an entire profession at fault for the actions of a few. I'm sure in your career you have had a few poor examples that may have tarnished your career choice's image. There's over 2,500 hundred firefighters in this valley. As much as you want to make they all seem like evil heathens they are not. Most are good, honest and hard working people. My next door neighbor is a firefighter and I don't see his name on these lists of high paid firefighters. I know him as a great neighbor, always willing to help my other neighbors and not someone who should feel guilty about his career choice.
The problem lies with years of union concessions that were made to the unions by the local politicians. This problem goes back 20+ years ago.
But I understand your on your crusade to bring down the evil firefighters. Do what you feel is important but realize that most everyone on here thinks of you as a twit!
Cheers!
Joe, I am not spinning anything, I just want the answers to what Mcallister said earlier. If editor Joe will not answer these, than I find the article very uncredit worthy. If there is a numbers comparison, and the numbers are being added wrong to represent something not valid, why shouldnt one question it?
tibbs,
ahhh, more personal attacks from the peanut gallery. and I had no idea you were so omniscient and powerful as to be able to speak for what "most everyone on here thinks"!
gee thanks for clearing that up! you must be just like Sylvia Brown the "psychic" on daytime television!!!!
perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread on this topic to see how many posters are supporting the local firefighters making $200,000 or $300,000 or $400,000 or even more in taxpayer supported pay and benefits, versus how many posters are disgusted with the fleecing we taxpayers are getting.
and in case you don't understand. the poor downtrodden firefighters you are supporting ARE the union.
had they been willing to step up to the plate with modest concessions, as other public employees have made and are continuing to make in this current economic climate, they would not have raised the ire of the public as they have.
Average, We need to get you into a good anger management class. Before we have to legal you.. (that invloves the real heros, Metro!)..
Gee it's interesting how many of the posters in support of these grossly inflated local firefighters salaries have JUST JOINED the Sun forum, and have never posted about ANY other topic other than this one.......
one would think that maybe, just maybe, they are either local firefighters, or the family members of local firefighters.....
what do you think? and yes I'm specifically talking to those who keep stooping to personal attacks to drown out logical debate:
Wisemansaid
Tibbs
Balrog469
Husbandbr
Average Joe, I think you should start the boycott! What Fire Station are you going to begin your crusades at?
All four of you just joined the Sun forums TODAY, and with the exception of 1 post by Balrog, ALL of your MANY posts have been to support our local firefighter "heroes".
I guess you would expect us all to believe that you have all been loyal Sun forum readers for years, but just today felt so strongly that firefighters were getting an unfair shake, that you just HAD to join.
give us a break.
you're all busted.
actually I doubt it's even four separate people. you're probably all just ONE disgruntled firefighter groupie posting under different user names.
HL9000, I have no idea where you are going with this. are you going to threaten me that "my house might catch fire" as our local firefighters were overheard to threaten Steve Sisolak?
You can watch the show or you can be the show. The Fire personell in this valley choose to be the show, and I'm afraid they're not going to like the end of the show, or the moral of the story.
Joe, What personal attacks have I made in all my posts today? I sure cant find any. Please let me know. Yes I may be new on here, but i didnt know you are the barometer to logic! Dont be angry because I aint smelling what you are squirtin!
Tundra,
and yes Metro are real heroes. this is a very dangerous city to be a police officer in.
as opposed to it being a very safe city to be a so-called firefighter in.
and not only do our local police make NO MORE than police in other large metro areas, but their union has been more than willing to offer concessions during this time of great economic recession for our great city.
Average Joe - after you get your anger under control you seriously need to seek out some type of emotional help. Your going to let this topic give you medical problems. Sometimes in life things like this stuff with the firefighters just happens. It'll correct itself, it just takes time and politicians who will not let it go on any longer. If you want to be a part of the solution then make appointments to visit your county commissioners or city council members and speak to them. If you think your going to persuade the people that only try to get involved through blogs then your wasting your energy. Go visit your elected officials and share your concerns with them.
Average, Does this mean we are not friends?. I think your blood pressure is off the hook. Chill, everyone is getting in your head. Firefighters are good at that you know!.. ;)
sure, whatever you say tibbs.
or I guess I should call you, "captain tibbs", or perhaps, "battalion chief tibbs", or is it "engineer tibbs" or just plain "firefighter tibbs".
tundra, nah u sound like a swell guy, maybe we can go have a beer together with president Obama!
Average, I am just trying to help an "average joe citizen get it together". ( no pun intended).. Please seek some help before you hurt somebody...
Average Joe - take me along with you and tundra and I'll buy the beer? And you can just call me Mr. Tibbs.
There is a very interesting phenomenon on this particular thread.
One that might be noticed by those of us who are long time posters or political junkies who frequent this forum.
I have noticed many of the same left of center posters that I frequently disagree with are also on this thread.
and the amazing thing is: We are ALL in agreement that we as taxpayers are getting shafted and robbed by the local fire services. this despite the fact that many of those on the left usually advocate heavy government involvement and large government programs.
I guess in this case the proof of taxpayer abuse is just too compelling, as even many on the left are now joining in the taxpayer chorus of "enough is enough".
BTW - I wouldn't expect any of you firefighters who just joined the forums today while pretending to be taxpayers who support quarter of a million dollar salaries for high school graduate twenty something year old firefighters to know this.
Average, You are about to go off the deep end with no water. You are way on edge, so defensive, take a deep breath and smile :)
No I dont make threats, I just do my job to the best of my abilities. I saved a life yestaurday in fact, felt good! In fact our whole station felt good! Yes Average, even after 15 years, I still feel everyday that I make a difference daily in someone's life! I have seen it first hand, nothing better than someone visiting your station after being in cardiac arrest and clinically dead! Have you ever felt this way?
Average, See, we can all be friends, even if we do not agree. Firemen really are friendly...
Hey HL9000, I think I talked him down. It was a close one!!!..
Imagine that! broad support from BOTH sides of the political spectrum for slashing the salaries of you local firefighter "heroes".
tundra, and thanks for asking but my bloodpressure is fine! I may not be as buffed as all you strapping young firefighters I see hanging out in the gym for 2 hours a day, but as stated, I almost never get sick! and when I am, I don't call in sick, unless I am so sick I cannot physically get out of bed. I go do my job. it's called a work ethic.
something those among you who are taking an extra month a year off in sick time, so that you can double up on overtime on the taxpayers dime wouldn't understand.
Well my job is done. Good night all.
Average, Lets see the real corrected numbers first before we all go pointing fingers. We are still waiting for editor Joe to post these...
Were still waiting for the rebutal to this post below!
Mr. Schoenmann must have been close to deadline. He called and asked for information on this subject. He was furnished the facts and still chose not to publish them. I guess it would have meant rewriting the story with a different ending than he had already planned. He was shown that firefighters may use more sick time hours but still less in overall sick days than when compared to the other city employees that use sick 8 hours at a time instead of 24 hours at a time. He also was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members. The Federal law that applies to all workers in the US. He conveniently left that information out. I guess it was too close to deadline and he didn't want to change the story to actually reflect the facts. Silly facts always get in the way of creating a story with a predetermined ending. In the old days they used to call that Yellow Journalism!
HL9000
nobody here has disputed that the firefighting profession is an honorable one.
it is those among your own ranks that have brought discredit upon your reputations in this city.
if you aren't involved in gaming the system, you HAD to know about it. nobody believes any of you are that stupid.
and as far as feeling good about saving a life. that is exactly why firefighters in other major metro areas do their jobs for less than half of what those of you who game the system take home.
what you fail to understand is that ANY job is supply and demand. here in LasVegas you so-called "professional" firefighters expect the public to respect you as heroes, when the fact is you have a relatively safe job, with benefits unmatched on this planet, and you get paid more than 98% of wage earners in this country.
police officers, professional fishermen, lumberjacks, taxi-cab drivers, and convenience store clerks ALL have a much more dangerous job than being a LasVegas fire"fighter". and that is just a few of MANY professions that are more dangerous than yours, but pay FAR less. and MOST of those jobs are NOT TAXPAYER SUPPORTED.
do you not think you can be replaced?
this captain or whatever he is lives down the street from me , always at home, toys like u wont believe . Harley bike,boats, atv's ,pool area looks like the playboy mansion, and of course, he acts like he is better than u.By the way live in logandale or call it firefighter capital.
Best scam in Nevada. BUST THE UNION!!!
Well I hope at the VERY LEAST these firefighter jerks don't ask for a discount on their Starbucks coffee.
Why say gaming the system? These firemen that are cheating the system, are nothing more than out and out no talent THIEVES. The problem is metro doesn't want to get involved with the THIEVES, they have to work along side of each other every day. The FBI should be looking into this matter. Non bias and federally controlled. So lets call them what they are THIEVES.
I wonder who pays these people.... Steve Wynn....!!! At least his salary and business would be higher and we could add more jobs!!!
What exactly do these people do anyway? besides sleep? pouring water on a smoldering pile once every couple of weeks is hardly justification for the massive costs being paid by taxpayers.
Funny,where I work,when someone calls in sick,the rest of us have to cover. We dont have some pool of people to just fill in.
husbanbr........"FD' is the REAL first responder? NO police officers are ever on scene first??? You must be a real joy to live with in your fantasty world.
Being a cop for over 30 years, I can't think of a time when the FD arrived before an officer. And when they do get there, we are ALWAYS assisting them to get the job done.
I have respect for my FD brothers, but your slamming of the PD is WAY out of line. You should start taking your meds!
From HL9000
"Steve, Are you at it again with the LDS thing? Let it go, Keeping all that bundled up is not healthy. Nobody here cares whether you got kicked out of the temple or not! Stick to the topic and leave religion out of this."
This is what is really terrifies the LDS run fire department....They don't want the public to know the scam they have been pulling off on the people in Las Vegas...They don't want the public to know that the Mormon Mob basically run Vegas. Look how upset HL9000 gets when I bring it up. This is the problem. If people want to know why and how the firemen have been getting paid such outrageous salaries, you need to look at who has been approving it.I find it amazing that people are not connecting the dots.
When you have Senator Harry Reid a devout Mormon and Tom Collins, Rory Reid, and Bruce Woodbury all debout Mormons running things with the city council----and they city council approves of the fire fighters' contracts---It's like a Mob organization....If they can pay big salaries to their LDS brothers/sisters, then they can keep the wife home on one single income where the wife can take care of the very large family the the LDS hierachy want. Plus when yheir LDS brothers are making 200,000 a year, that is $20,000 dollars a year guranteed to the LDS church. Now that's alot of money. We also have Gov. Gibbons--who is a Mormon--but not a good one...and don't forget Walt Ruffles who is Mormon and runs the Clark County County School District. And guess who run the school board??? and guess who are the top administrators of the school district???
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it must be A HORSE! Well, that's what Mr. Tibbs, HL9000, and all the other fire supporters on here want you to believe.
And by the way, I am not a disgruntled lds member. I am a person that wants fairness and justice in our country. I detest favortism in any form. It is what brings down a company and government.
And Wiseman
You have got to be kidding me! Walk up to any fireman and ask how many LDS are at their station.
steve,
tibbs, balrog, wiseman and husbandbr don't have to walk up to a fireman to ask a question.
because they all ARE firemen.
read my earlier post where I discovered all 4 of them had just joined the forums yesterday, JUST to post on this topic in favor of firefighters grossly inflated salaries and benefits.
and they would have us believe they are all just "concerned citizens"
at least tundra and hl9000 man up and admit they ARE local firefighters.
Average Joe...lol..I think the whole firemen's union was activated to gang up on you. But hang in there, you owe these thugs nothing.
Great idea to make them salaried instead of hourly. And put them on 8 hour shifts. If they are busy on a job (as opposed to shopping) at the end of the shift so be it. They stay until someone relieves them. Just like other professionals stay at their jobs if something comes up during the shift.
Steven well said. But don't stop with the CCFD. Take a look at all the other state, county, and city depts, majority are headed by LDS as well. It's time to open up the eyes of the new residents of LV, so they to can realize how much of what you say is true. The real MORMON CRICKETS are are eating up taxpayers money. Us oldtimers already know what you say is true. Go get them George Knapp.
Damn some people obviously have alot of spare time onn their hands. A few people made most of the posts. But I guess it does get pretty boring sitting around the fire house doing nothing.
This thread ended up just like most of the other 'hot topic' threads. From facts and opinions to personal attacks. Shame on all of you. You lose your credibility the instant the personal attacks start. I enjoy the posts from so many here on various topics, but the nasty posts just make you posters look like idiots reverting to digs and barbs because you lack the intelligence to respond to a particular post. You "regulars" should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up, pretend you're mature and post like you are - what a refreshing thought!
The fire fighters are probably calling in sick to tend to thier side-jobs that were mentioned in The Sun a while back.
These ff can try and defend it all they want, but obviously the citizens aren't buying it anymore. I don't care what spin you put on it, there is no way a ff should be making these kind of incomes. especially in Vegas. If these incomes are justified in Vegas, then large metro city ff should be making a million dollars per year.
I realize ff is a dangerous job. They may get hit by a run-away shopping cart in the parking lot of Costco or Albertsons. Maybe a spill in aisle 7 and one of the "heroes" may take a tumble. Then they would need to call in sick and one of their buddies would get OT.
FF make too much in vegas. Average Joe has made great posts and speaks for the taxpayer. There have even been posts from real ff from other cities.
The knock is not on ff as a profession. Its on the ff in vegas making outrageous income on the back of the taxpayer.
Kudos to Sisolak. Lets hope Oscar gets on this also.
Please someone push the needle on the record cause w/FF it's the SAME OLD TIRED SONG THAT KEEP'S SKIPPING...........WHAT a joke.!!!
Steve10, I think you've nailed it. Press on!
Throw your money away tax payers. It's the foxs guarding the hen house:) I use to be a Firemen now retired. I thank all of you in Clark County.
The problem isn't 24 hour shifts...... they are given 24 hours to recover..... the problem is the hours they put in doing side jobs or second careers while being actively employed.
And these are the guys we pay to help us in an emergency. What a SCAM!!!
Topped out FF's and Engineers make $25-30/hour.
Many employees in private sector make this hourly wage. Call Southwest Gas, Las Vegas Water District, Nevada Power Company, etc. Those who wish to aspire to a certain standard of living seek these types of Jobs because they are motivated people. Firefighters are not payed too much per hour. They DO work a 56 hour week. This County, and City are understaffed by as much as 50% compared to other Major Departments. This ratio is given as FF's per 1000 people. Ask your Commissioners a few questions: Are we understaffed vs. other Metropolitan Areas? Why are we understaffed? How do we make up these shortfalls?(OVERTIME). Are the citizens of this community getting a good deal on their dollar compared to other Metro Areas? Is it less expensive to pay Overtime, OR is it less expensive to pay for new employees. Management has the Obligation to reign in Overtime Expenses IF the Commissioners(are you listening Sisolak?) chose to hire more FF's. Most IRATE persons on this list, and those that are given priority status in both of our local papers with regard to printed editorial comments are ticked off for the wrong reasons. If there is Sick Leave Abuse within any Fire Department, it is the Management and Unions responsibility to curb it. This can be done, it is not impossible. Salaries that are given by either paper shroud the TRUTH. Some F.D. members are making a lot of Money. This is a fact. There are reasons for this, take the time to investigate, and THINK. Ask your County Commissioner to hire more Firefigthers. Ask you Fire Dept Chiefs to curb any Abuse you think is happening. Firefighters are good people, they are FF's because they want to help save lives, and do good in this community. Without overtime, a 20 year Firefighter would make about 100K/yr. Those that criticize are those that cannot stand "anyone" making that kind of money. Police and Fireman risk their LIVES everyday @ work for those that attack them @ this time. The tradition of working 24 hour shifts has a basis in functionality. Would YOU expect your husband(for example) to work 8 hour shifts, 7 days a week, 365 days/year? NO, you would not. OK, then how about going to a 40-42 hour workweek?....That would entail hiring another platoon of bodies, there are 3 platoons in our "western us" system. Some depts back east have (4) paltoons, they work a 42/hr week, and have split shifts, etc....but more time off than our local crews. Oh, and shame on the Firefighters for having the "nerve" to have a second business, or try to improve(read:$$) their standard of living in any other way, how "caustic" of them. There are many out of work now, the Firemen of this valley did not have anything to do with these citizens losing their jobs. Ask your Commissioners to hire more FF's, ask the respective Chiefs to take actions that will limit any percieved sick leave abuse. Ask some questions, they are your elected officials
use_your_head makes a valid point. However, he fails to address the abuse of sick time and ff trading shifts for the OT. He fails to address the fd responding to calls they are not needed (re AMR, Medicwest) in order to show how many calls they respond to to increase budget. If ff were making $80k with OT, and $120k with 20 years on the job, nobody would be up in arms.
This needs to be addressed for city,county,Nlv and Henderson, because it is rampant across the board.
You people amaze me when you write all these comments and do not even question the article and just for laughs, divide 146 positions by 70 million dollars. That works out to be about 479,000 dollars per position.
The article states that: "Last week, Goodman asked city staff to examine the legality of firing all city employees and then rehiring them at lower pay. Otherwise, the city is threatening to lay of 146 employees to save $70 million dollars." Some of you probably believe we pay that kind of money per position.
Dean Fletcher challenged the reporters formula for comparing firefighters and other city employee's time off and the reporters response was "Still, as a share of their total hours, firefighters' sick leave is considerably higher, on average. The sun does not appear to report but rather incite its readers. From this article, I can not tell you what the truth is, but what I can tell you, is that this article does not contribute to finding out what the truth is
Just an Average Joe
I read your posts. I agree with you 100 percent. People in support of this overly inflated fire department salaries are firemen/women or related to one.
No sane tax payer would support these over inflated slaraies. Firemen and women deserve to make a decent living. Even $100,000 is too high.
People aren't losing their jobs due to the firemen's salaries (that we know of--who's to say?) However, those that are left working in Clark County still have to pay the taxes for the fire department. The tax base isn't there since we have around 14 percent unemployment. My accountant friend said probably closer to 20 percent. The media won't admit the actual figures because they want everyone to believe we are in a recession and not a depression.
People will rebel if they keep raising our taxes to continue to fuel the corruption machine. People can't take it anymore...And with Obama Care...Wow~ The highest taxes imposed on the American people if this health bill passes.
I like the Mayors idea of firing everybody and rehire at what we as tax payers can afford.
SgtRock is correct the wage cut for fire is 8% this year and 8% next year= 16% cut. Plus the paper fails to mention that fire took 8% already for the last 2 years? If you listened to Dear Betsy (City Manager) you'd know that this OT that the Fire Dept gets is because the City CHOOSE not to fill positions as it was more cost effective to pay OT? This OT in not the firefighters fault, you want to blame someone ask Betsy and our Mayor?
And no I'm not a Firefighter.
HMMMMM, Apparently there has been one very important point left out of this article as well as all of the comments.
Fire Fighters in general work a twentyfour hour shift and when you take ONE sick day you actually must take twentyfour hours of sick time. However, when the normal nine to five employee takes ONE sick day, they only have to take eight hours of sick time, thus taking less sick time than a firefighter.
It's a glitch in the system that is no more than smoke and mirrors that makes it look as if the firefighters are taking more sick time than the normal employee, when actually they can be taking less on a one day to one day basis.
I did addess sick leave: Make your Commissioners, and appointed respective Fire Chiefs formualate plans to solve what you consider abuse of sick leave. Is it wrong for FF's to abuse sick leave, so that others can work Overtime: Absolutely....Period. The same writer then says it OK to pay someone with 20 years experience 120K. I agree. Have any of you ever been on scene, as a first responder to a critical Cardiac, or Stroke patient? Have you ever try'd to work a Code with 2 personel? If you have/had, you would MAYBE think more about that statement. Nevada is 49 out of 50 States in Tax Burden. We cannot go much lower. "just an average Joe" is NOT a Firefighter, or a Police Officer. You do not have the motivation, or the committment to handle these jobs. You like to attack, have little sense of the real problem, and are encouraged by a Media who have no other purpose than to sell papers, or advertising on their Network. AGAIN....Make your elected reps handle these labor disputes. There are many factors that have led to the demise of the American Worker, making good money is not one of them. How about the JUNK we buy from Other Countries(China), because we have to be cool, and have stuff like our Cool Neighboors. How about your inability to Save Money...in a Bank. What about are Populaces COMPLETE lack of understanding of Economics, how money turns over in a healthy ecomony, Of how our Money goes to China....we get back.....as a loan to our Government.....Small thinkers in a LARGE Environ.
Use your head,
That was a good job.
I'm pretty sure this is ok since the state of Nevada has Sen. Ensign drawing down a salary of $174,000/yr to do nothing in Congress.
I wonder what the sick leave rate with AMR or MedicWest is. I bet it's not even half or a quarter of the county or city paramedics. And AMR and MedicWest respond and transport almost all medical emergencies in the valley. I don't think firefighters / paramedics like to transport patients...too much paperwork. These contracted paramedic services earn about $15/hr or less with little to no overtime and still do a great job serving the community.
WoW!. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former....
Brian? Cmon... great job? You might be able to sell that to the waitress at fatburger or the sour puss nurse in the E.R. but we both know what happens in he living room, the back alley, the intersection. You show up with some extra heavy person and a 5'2" 18 year old and you can't lift the patient. Let alone provide treatment and transport in a timely fashion. Thats why you guys get TWELVE minutes to show up. Thats how important you are to the overall scheme. Even your union president at AMR got caught not going available after, AFTER FD CANCELLED HIM, so he could cruise to get a free breakfast at Valley. Just get your gurney, and stand in the yard until we call for you.
Private sector paramedics here in LV and in California makes less than 1/2 what our FF/first responders make a year. They also get a total of 15 days of personal time off a year - vacation PLUS sick leave....again probably half of what our union friends make.
Bottom line - we cant afford to pay 2 to 3 times what the private sector pays to do essentially the same job!
Remember less than 3 percent of the work a FF does is actually taking care of fires! They really are highly paid paramedics riding on $600k vehicles.
@vgasbb..
I do not work for AMR or MedicWest. Answer me one question then. Why is it everytime I drive by an accident scene, or an ambulance bay at a hospital there is always an AMR or MedicWest ambulance there? The county units are usually the first to leave the scene, unless they are sweeping the broken glass off the highway, which I've noticed NDOT or the contracted highway emergency service has taken over this duty also. This is why N. Las Vegas just was in negotiations to start transporting more patients themselves so they could make more money for the department. Do you have numbers of County Paramedics transport percentage vs. contracted Paramedics? Thats a serious question. I'm curious if its half or more / less. Please remember the contractors aren't paid for working out at Gold's gym..so they may be a little weaker than the great fed / just worked out paramedic.
Tundra said:
"WoW!. Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former...."
make that 3 things tundra, you forgot about another infinite: the greed of our local phony tough guy "hero" firemen
(I don't even think you deserve the term firefighters, as you are little more than overpaid ambulance crew)
One more thing..contracted Paramedics are mobile and not at a "station" hence the 12 minute response time (which is almost always done in much less). When your at a station they can study how long it should take you to get to your stations assigned area. Stations aren't built 15 minutes away from their assigned areas. This is why you have MANY stations in the Nellis / Charleston areas instead of just one, because of the number of calls in this area.
and all of the smoke and mirrors about sick hours not being calculated correctly due to 24 hour shifts (with 6-8 hours of paid sleep time) are just BS.
none of those so called "facts" can change the bottom line:
the vast MAJORITY of our public workers making over $100,000 or $200,000 or $300,000 or even more than HALF A MILLION TAXPAYER DOLLARS a year are our local firefighter "heroes".
www.transparentnevada.com
spin it anyway you want. but there is absolutely no rationale for paying our local "heroes" two or three times more than the real heroes make in cities with 100+ year old highrises.
there should be absolutely no way that they make more than $100k per year, regardless of how much so-called "overtime" they put in.
Especially considering they have the most generous retirement plan of almost any workers in the United States.
Im sorry but I'm the type that believes both police officers and firefighters started off as rubberneckers always wondering what was in that bodybag. In fact I bet most public safety HR departments exclude the applicants who state "I'm here to help others". Its the badge, siren, authority they want. Has nothing to do with anything else. That is why people who fail Metro's polygraph end up working as a security guard at a casino. It is also the same reason volunteers are firefighters, just to see what is going on at that place with all the flashing lights and to have a red rotating light stuck to the roof of your car. If your the opposite of what I just said, I hope you are the one who responds to my place when I call 911.
To Average, What an ugly thing to say. Does this mean we can't be friends?.
to tundra, sorry if the truth hurts my friend.
but bottom line, there is no way in any universe that you guys "deserve" to make HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS A YEAR as LasVegas Fire personnel.
BTW - did u take the time to read all the posts in the last 24 hours? again, the VAST MAJORITY of posters are sick and tired of us taxpayers getting fleeced by you guys. the jig is up. you might want to see about shortselling your 6,000 square foot house, and trading in your wife's Cadillac Escalade (the one with the $4,000 custom wheels and that cool "professional firefighter" tag)
Were still waiting for the rebutal to this post below!
Mr. Schoenmann must have been close to deadline. He called and asked for information on this subject. He was furnished the facts and still chose not to publish them. I guess it would have meant rewriting the story with a different ending than he had already planned. He was shown that firefighters may use more sick time hours but still less in overall sick days than when compared to the other city employees that use sick 8 hours at a time instead of 24 hours at a time. He also was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members. The Federal law that applies to all workers in the US. He conveniently left that information out. I guess it was too close to deadline and he didn't want to change the story to actually reflect the facts. Silly facts always get in the way of creating a story with a predetermined ending. In the old days they used to call that Yellow Journalism!
Average, Call your buddy Joe at the paper and have these numbers reconfigured to show an accurate follow-up story. CMon you got the pull to make this happen little buddy...
To Average, So we are friends!. The truth does not hurt. It is what it is?. What would hurt, is if you were not my friend. I guy can have too much "bling" as you say, but never enough friends..
BFF, Tundra...
lets see,
a disproportionately high number of firefighters are related, and a high number of them make over $200k or even $300k or MORE in taxpayer money....
hmmmmmmm...
In the old days they used to call that cronyism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronyism
Hey Average, You need to get off the pay man, it will all pan itself out. I am sure Oscar has another plan. I am the one who could be "fired". You on the other hand, have the job security of the private ambulance company. But I harbor no anger.. It's all good..
Average, Stick to the article at hand. Call Joe and have the averages reconfigured by taking out what mcallister has pointed out in his rebuttal. Cmon you can admit it, you know the story is scewed!
it sure is.
it's skewed in favor of you "heroes".
because they compared your sick hours off to the sick hours of PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.
they should've compared the number of sick hours/days/shifts you took versus those in the PRIVATE SECTOR.
those of us who earn a living in the real world would get FIRED for taking even half as much time off as you young, fit heroes do.
Tundra:
You're an oak...
BlueRescueARFF:
The whole shift length vs overtime thing was discussed a few days ago, click on the 'related stories'.
To Average, Keep working on the this issue, keep the anger under control, and keep the faith. This middle aged, Ya I am fit, "First responder", (no Hero).. Needs to go to bed. Skiing Targhee, in the morning.
Good night my private sector , hopefully fit?, friend....
Well Vixen, Thank you!. If Average is not my friend, I just don't think I could bare it!...
First, brownouts will cost the "taxpayers" who pay for the FF's wages. Look at the case in Baltimore. Do your research.
2. No one is "gaming the system." When a FF calls in sick - his "buddy" is not called in - they have an automated system that calls in the replacement. It is random.
3. No fires, huh? Really, do your research. 4. Firefighters just hang out all day, do they? When they aren't fighting fires or going on medical calls, etc. etc. they are training, doing pre-plans, doing school drills, taking care of their stations and their rigs - among many other things.
5. Yep - they work out. Tell me this - how fit, physically and cardiovascularly do you think you have to be to carry yourself, your protective clothing, airpack and another human being even a few feet? You should be thankful that they care enough about you as a potential victim to keep themselves in good shape. It is part of the job.
6. There was a comment a while back about firefighters complaining about how dangerous their jobs are. No one is complaining - simply stating a fact. Everyday that they leave for work they just may not come home. Same with the police. These people are not "regular citizens" with regular jobs. Do your research.
7. The truth of the matter is that the Firefighters HAVE made "the modest concessions" someone spoke about. I don't know if it surprised the powers that be and they decided since it was "so easy" then the FF's would have to do more. But they have cut their budget and done what they were asked - and now they are being asking for more.
I really wish that people would not believe something simply because a reporter wrote it down and got in put in the paper. Remember - these people are human and have their own perceptions and agendas. Really, you can't take anything at face value - do your research - and then have a conversation. Otherwise, you risk looking like a fool when the real facts and story come out.
Average, you dont think the below figures change the overall numbers. Simple math say yes... You are grouping in thousands of hours that shouldnt be grouped into true sick time...Cmon use that masters degree of yours, I hope its not in math....
He also was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members
Tundra:
"I just don't think I could bare it!..."
Awww Tundra- are we cross?
How Convenient for the sun to delete the post that I had below my last post that questioned the article with true figures that were given to Editor Joe. So I will post it again below:
Joe was informed that the hours listed included workers comp claims that are pending in which the city has denied benefits. Two of those claims alone total 3000 hours. He was also informed that these sick hours include FMLA ( Family Medical Leave Act ) hours for employees to take care of sick or injured family members. The Federal law that applies to all workers in the US. He conveniently left that information out.
HL9000
I know how you feel. "They" deleted one of my comments about LDS dominance in the fire department but left all of my ohter posts on the LDS dominance.
I think WISEMAN requested to have my post removed.....Oh well.
Heres the bottom line, If the city can prove that there is a scam on overtime, and they should be able to, every fire fighter involved should be disciplined, suspended, or terminated. If it squacks like a duck and walks like a duck its a duck. Fraud is fraud no matter how you look at it, this has to stop now and the City needs to adress the policy while negotiations are in place, thats the time to change the call off policy. To Steve10: don't try to fight the Mormon Mafia You'll lose trust me I know.
I know how to fix the overtime deal.
Let them hire 50 new fire figthers that work for zero benefits and $50k salary.
They will fill in for firefighters that have the blue flu.
You can say the miss less shifts but they have less shifts...again if you only have 120 shifts a year and you are missing 8.5 sick and 13 avg vacation, that means the average firefighters miss almost 1 out of every 5 shifts!
So now we are persecuting firefighters because they get vacation days???!!! They just can't win, can they. It seems that the playing field gets changed whenever it doesn't work out for you. Oh, now that firefighters aren't using more sick time, let's throw in the vacation. EVERYBODY gets vacation - and NEEDS vacation. Jesus - you judgmental, self-absorbed people!!! Do their job for one month and see where you sit on this whole topic then! You think they sit around playing cards, doing nothing. I was so hoping that people really weren't that ignorant! Tell me, do you want a well-trained, physically fit firefighter with good moral to be on call for you - or a disgruntled, brow-beaten minimum wage worker waiting for your call? I worked at a casino for 7 years. I got 2 sick days per year. THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T THINK I SHOULD HAVE HAD MORE!!! I went to work sick - got everyone else sick and made myself sicker. You keep wanting to compare firefighters to a "regular employee". Get real! It is a totally different animal and we all know it. This country has become infested with people who have the attitude that "if I don't have it - no one should." BS! You hate these guys until you need them - then you are down on your knees hoping and praying that well-trained a**-kickers show up and get your family out of the tinder box you live in that is going up in flames. So you all just keep on keying firefighers' cars, you keep on spitting on them, giving them dirty looks, talking them down. They will STILL be there for you.
sc933
No one is saying that fire fighters shouldn't make a decent wage....Fire fighters are paid with tax dollars. No one is to become rich off the tax payers which is what the fire deaprtment has been doingfor the last 10-20 years. Fire fighters are making more than a physician. A physician averages around 116,000 a year. They have the minimum of 8 years of college, and they are exposed to people with AIDS, Hepatitis, flus,etc...They work more than a fire fighter too. Most physicians are lucky to get two weeks off a year. Fire fighters have sooooo much time on their hands that they can have a side business making another 100,000 a year. Something is up with that and needs to stop.
People are really getting annoyed with the arrogant attitudes of the fire department. Trying to convince the public that you are entitled to making 150,000-300,000 with only a GED requirement to get in is not going to fly anymore. Other professions are just as dangerous, and they don't make near the money you make. Teachers get shot and killed in their classrooms...One teacher was just shot and killed in Oregon (or Washington) a month back on the steps of her school by a crazy stalker. Teachers don't make more more money because they work with dangerous students that bring knives and guns to school.
And what is up with your arrogant fashion plates? Please! How embarrassing! Are we supposed to bow down to you when we see your Hummer with fashion plates? I already know fire fighters have been replacing those fashion plates with regular Nevada plates.
First, your statement that firefighters are becoming "rich" off the taxpayers is grossly inaccurate. If firefighters have things it is because they have made investments, managed their money right and because they DO have other financial ventures. I think it very narrow minded to begrudge them doing something lucrative and productive with their time off. God knows if they were sitting around or doing fun things fault would be found with that too. Looks like a no-win situation.
I think your numbers are off on physicians as well. Besides, life is not an equal sum game - in that I mean that there is constantly a comparison - with doctors, with teachers. You all keep trying to compare firefighting to other jobs. Firefighting is a different animal from all other professions. We simply cannot compare what they do to other professions. Doctors are exposed to things - but doctors know what they are dealing with when they go into a room. Chances are that they are not going to walk into something and be completely surprised and at risk - with the exception of Trauma/ER doctors. And BTW, teachers do get paid more for more dangerous areas - I will completely agree with you - not nearly enough!!
I know a lot of firefighters and not one of them only has a GED. I don't know if you are familiar with the testing process - but it is a little more difficult than it is being made out to be here. There seems to be an attitude that these firefighters are so arrogant because they are making $300,000 (which is so not the case) for a job a trained, slightly intelligent monkey could do. That is an unfair attitude.
As far as the vanity plates are concerned, we have never had them and never will. Hell no, you shouldn't bow down to firefighters. That is a ridiculous statement - suggesting that that is what is expected. But they do deserve respect. They are proud of what they do and some have chosen to get the plates because of that. But I am tired of hearing the "FF plates on a hummer" thing. Arrogance is disgusting & there is some arrogance in the fire department - and it embarrasses us as well. But honestly, the vast majority of the firefighters I know drive just regular cars and are nice, genuine people. I am not a firefighter but my husband is. He is a very humble person. He really, Steve10, is the guy you want showing up at your house to help you. He would put himself in a potentially fatal situation to save someone - no questions asked, no hesitation.
One more thing I think that needs to be remembered. Firefighters work a 56 hour work week - not a 40 hour one. Right off the top they are working 16 hours of overtime for their regular wage - which regardless what anyone thinks is NOT exorbitant by any stretch of the imagination.
sc933, yes firefighters ARE getting rich off taxpayers.. if they made 80K on the fire dept and another 80K from "investments" there wouldn't be an issue, but they make 160K+ just from fire dept salary plus overtime, clothing allowance, benefits, etc.
And be realistic, the 56 hr week includes sleeping time, grocery shopping, going to the gym, sitting in the lazy boy recliner in addition to your medical/fire calls. Don't make it sound like firefighters work harder than people who work an 8 or 10 hr day.
Again, someone has picked yet another arbitrary (yet inaccurate) amount for what every firefighter makes. You are ill-informed.
And here is the personal attack because firefighters are in a "living" environment at their jobs. That is the nature of the beast - how it has to be - yet you want to fault them for it. You forgot many things, however. Their 56 hour work week includes flowing hydrants, school drills, training, taking care of their station, rigs & equipment. They do pre-plans so they know buildings before they into them when they are on fire, etc. etc. They have a regular 'work time' and don't do any of the things you say until after that work time is completed - except the grocery store. I am going to assume you don't begrudge them eating. On top of the work time, they go on calls the rest of the time they are there. I mean really, your point that they have down time is ridiculous. What exactly do you want them to do?
And ironically I am not the one making it seem like they work harder than people who work an 8 or 10 hour day - it is you rather who is trying to make it sound like they don't do anything. From the get-go I have not compared FF with any other profession. My comment about the 56 hour work week was in defense of everyone's comparison to 40 hour a week workers & the issues with how much firefighters are paid. I was simply saying, that from the start they work more without overtime compensation. That's all I was saying.
well sc933, I didn't choose an arbitrary or inaccurate amount, if you're not pulling in at least that salary I hate to break it to you, but all your buddies are earning that and much, much, much more.
See for yourself:
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
And I was married to a firefighter for 10 years, I know what they do with their time.
Sc9
When I (and most other people) come home from work, we do not have the time or energy to start up and take care of another business/occupation.
I personally know fire fighters that own their construction business or rock business. If they have that much energy after doing their fire fighting, it makes me wonder just how difficult their job really is. No one has that much time on their hands to do an 8-10 hour a day job to come home to another full time business. Many of these fire fighters have their own business on the side.
I doubt fire fighters really scrimp and save their money. I know several fire fighters that have lost their homes because they cannot afford them any longer because their over time was taken away. Many of them were making 25,000-50,000 in over time.
As more and more people leave Vegas ( just see the news where even the apartment complexes can't fill up occupancy) who is going to pay these fire fighters' salaries??....And we don't need any Polly Anna's out there telling us how wonderful the world is. It's only going to get worse before it gets better in Vegas.
This thread is just going around in circles & is becoming more trivial by the second. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. But I personally am not spending any more of my time on this. However, don't convince yourselves its because what you say is right. I don't agree - and again, this is pointless, certainly you can see that.
Fire fighters, particualrly in the Las Vegas Valley have become prima donas. Come on people, this is no longer such a dangerous job, the retrofitting laws on the buildings have made them some of the safest in the nation and there are just not that many older homes or tenaments. Occasionally a bad apartment fire, but they fight them from the distance with their trucks and towers. When was the last fire fighter killed in the line of duty? Heck its more dangerous for road crews and construction workers. But they continue to hide behind their glorious image and rape the taxpayers as they do. Its gotten so safe that they have to have exceptions to worker comp laws that they get the priviledge of receiving workers comp for heart disease, cancer and other crap, even though there are far more jobs that handle chemicals and work in far harder and hotter conditions daily without this privledge. How would they feel if they daily had to be on asphalt roofs repairing air conditioners at temps of 120+. And I don't see exceptional worker's comp laws for those men. Get a grip, fire fighters are just taking advantage.
It seems to me the 24 hour shift issue is antiquated and fraught with abuse... Which ALL the elected officials (on BOTH sides of the ailse) have ALLOWED throughout the years of 'milk & honey'. Those days are now and forever OVER!
Let's start w/ holding our politicians accountable! Then, how about the idea of basic 9 hour shifts which allow a 1/2 hour for lunch and a 1/2 hour to get situated from the previous shift; to be kept up to speed on what happened the previous shift???!!!
It sounds like a VERY BASIC concept which would/ could do away with all the overtime abuse. ALL could work 'normal'- for 'city' employees- 36 hour shifts!! MOST of us other cogs in the wheel work WAAAY more than 40 hour work weeks to make ends meet!!! If you need more firefighters than hire and train them, it would be waaay less expensive in the long run than to continue this UNSUSTAINABLE current system!!! I can make schedules as well as do addition and subtraction!!!
Sorry firefighters and and firefighter management... Your salaries (as well as 'bennies') NEED to be brought back to reality w/ huge pay cuts, to be in line w/ those of us in the private sector!!!
'MAGINE THIS: Back east on Long Island (NY), (@180 miles long and @25 miles wide- encompassing 2 counties and @ 3 million people!!!) we had firefighters AND A/EMT'S that were TOTALLY a force of volunteers who held down full-time jobs for their income!!! Yes, they collected pensions after a certain number of years volunteering!!! AGAIN- 'MAGINE THAT???!!!
So please stop your whining and pissing and moaning and YOU start appreciating your fellow citizens (Joe Shmoes) and all the hard work they do unappreciated every day they go to work to support their families and DO YOUR SHARE of compromising and being 'civic minded' and take your lumps and make a decision if you want to contiue to be considered a 'hero' and work for less money in line w/ the local economy!!! Unless you now want to start new careers outside the county! Good Luck!
The 'little guy' is scared, sad, frustrated, mentally and physically tired of being taken to the cleaners by ALL our elected officials who claim to be working for us!!!
Step-up because I believe WE are not going to take it without your accountability anymore!!!
Thank you, God Bless and Peace Out...