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A firefighter checks the stability of a roof after an eastern valley apartment fire in this 2010 file photo. Sources said one firefighter will be fired and 16 will face disciplinary action following an investigation into sick-leave policy abuses.
Thursday, May 12, 2011 | 3:55 p.m.
Firefighter sick leave
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KSNV report by Sun reporter Joe Schoenmann on pending discipline Clark County firefighters face over alleged abuse of sick leave, May 12, 2011.
Sun archives
- County, firefighters’ union reach agreement that includes cuts (5-5-2011)
- Another firefighter perk fans flames (3-26-2011)
- Fire union official defends heavy use of sick leave in ’09 (3-6-2011)
- Firefighters' quest for a new perk was short-lived (3-4-2011)
- Under scrutiny, firefighter sick leave falls (2-27-2011)
- County considers seeking reimbursement over firefighter sick leave abuse (2-15-2011)
- County OKs contract with firefighters that saves $7.4 million (2-1-2010)
- Arbitrator backs county over firefighters’ union in contract negotiations (1-19-2011)
- County firefighters union preaches frugality, to others (11-2-2010)
- Sisolak offers proof of firefighters ‘gaming’ sick leave system (9-11-2010)
- County, firefighters’ union spar over contract negotiations (8-3-2010)
Steve Sisolak
One Clark County firefighter will be fired for abusing sick leave and 16 others will be disciplined.
According to several sources, the disciplinary actions follow an internal investigation by county and Fire Department administrators. Sources did not know the specifics of the discipline faced by the 16 firefighters who won’t be terminated.
County administrators refused to discuss the moves with the Sun, noting such issues are confidential personnel matters.
Union representatives could not be reached.
Sources, however, said more information about the discipline is likely to be made public over the next week. They also said the firing and other disciplinary actions will likely be challenged by the firefighter union.
Commissioner Steve Sisolak, who a year ago called firefighters the “gold medalists” of gaming the sick-leave system, said Thursday he had not been told of the disciplinary action.
But, he added, it “shows that the county is taking the sick-leave abuse and the fraud perpetrated on the taxpayers seriously. And this should serve as a notice to citizens that we do take these allegations extremely seriously,” he said.
“Those who have been gaming the system, be aware that we’re going to be looking for you,” he said.
Allegations that county firefighters have abused the sick-leave system have been floated for more than a year.
First reported by the Sun, the allegations surfaced in a March 2010 Clark County compensation study that found the average number of shifts taken off for sick leave by roughly 700 firefighters came to almost twice as many as rank-and-file employees and about four times those of management.
Sick-leave abuse was also cited as one reason Fire Department overtime is so high. The union disputed that, saying overtime levels are a consequence of minimum staffing requirements combined with the county’s unwillingness to hire more firefighters.
Yet a fire station like the one at McCarran International Airport is closed to firefighters from other stations because those firefighters have specialized training. Sisolak noted it would be easier for the relatively small group at the airport of figuring out schedules ahead of time to ensure co-workers pick up extra overtime.
In 2009, the average overtime worked by airport firefighters was 859 hours (they work in 24-hour shifts, so that represents about 36 shifts).
Rank-and-file firefighters weren’t the only ones accused of cheating the system. In September, county officials found that sick leave by battalion chiefs fell dramatically after a new policy was implemented months earlier.
The policy worked like this: Normally, three battalion chiefs are on duty at all times. That means if one called in sick, another “batt-chief” had to be called to fill in. The new policy said if a batt-chief calls in sick, the department will operate with just two. During 12 weeks under the new policy compared with the same 12 weeks in 2009, batt-chief sick leave fell 80 percent.
Sisolak said the incentive to call in sick to give each other more overtime had disappeared so they called in less.
The most conclusive judgement on sick leave occurred earlier this year. An independent arbitrator from California wrote that “some employees use sick leave as vacation, scheduling themselves to be ‘sick’ months in advance.”
Moreover, wrote arbitrator Norman Brand, “it appears some firefighters may deliberately call in late to turn the overtime opportunity into a callback/overtime opportunity.”
Sisolak wrote letters to Metro and the FBI after that asking for investigations into sick-leave abuse as potential criminal activity. Sources say those investigations are expected to be wrapped up in the next few weeks.
All firemilkers should be given polygraph tests if they want to keep their jobs. They should all be required to have those phony license plates on their cars so the public can identify them.
I do not believe this report..Bring in outside investigators and fire ALL that abused the sick leave including all management. They have defrauded us, the tax payers.
So can they get their raises now?
@mred, hahahha thats funny, firemilkers! Sounds like there should be some cows somewhere too!!
Wow, 17 disciplined! That's almost 2 percent of employees breaking the rules. Someone call the FBI!! I guess the 98% that obey the rules don't count. Where do they go to get their reputations back? Maybe now Sisolak can give back the 23 million dollars he took from the taxpayers. Maybe now we can also get onto more important business, like asking why county commissioners keep spending like drunken sailors on junk we don't want, or need. Srpings Preserve and other boondoggles.
Someone had to take the fall. I wonder if this was done by the "straw" system?
And what about Gina Hall? So is it true, this bat chief scammed the system, then sued and won 500K from the county for a sex harrasment suit, then retired? She's the only one?
This is crap. The average firefighter doubles their salary with overtime, you're telling me that only 17 are being disciplined? Who led the investigation, Chris Giunchiliani?? Guaranteed the one being fired was retiring this year anyways. They all need to be fired, a few bad apples have spoiled the bunch, and start over new with honest firefighters. I mean do we really want thieves as first responders?
Newcityhall,
give it up, FF stealing and Sisolak winning in a lawsuit are two different things. Some of your hero friends lied/cheated and your only comeback is it was only 2%? Perhaps only 2% that got caught because the rest of your gentleman agreements were word of mouth rather than e-mails. Sisolak has done some good exposing corruption, which is more than you can say.
What a joke this city is, this isn't even the tip of the iceberg. You could investigate all these people and Id bet a good portion could be sent to jail. Various police, firemen, politicians, committee members, union bosses, etc... Its just a giant corrupt city, which we all know, but sorry its 2011, not 1970.
Sisolak said, Sisolak said and shoeman wrote, the same old story.
Steve Sisolak, Las Vegas Sun Reporter and media hog, part time County Commissioner.
Chunky says:
He thinks they barely skimmed the surface on this. 17 out of 700? Yeah right!
That's what Chunky thinks!
So when do these people pay back what they used when NOT sick? Is this type of behavior taught to their children? how is that not child abuse?
What a joke. 1 firing. Complete joke. Complete.
Any bets that Chris G. wants to raise their pay so the CCFD won't feel a need to game the system?
Only 1 fire-thief was fired?!?!?
I thought Metro was doing a deep investigation into fire department corruption.
700 firefighters in the county. 33% gamed the system, 1 being fired and 16 being shown as bad guys. What happened to the other 220?
This is nothing but a showing for the public to let it die in the back rooms.
THIS IS TOTAL BS! Obviously there's corruption within the fire department. I expected the report to have "some" cushioning but this is ridiculous. One person getting fired is a slap in the face and total INSULT.
Exxon has a $40 billion/year profit and insists on tax breaks to "keep them competitive". Maybe this vacation pay keeps the Fire Boz competitive in the same sense.
Could be, our 'Public Servants', who eat at the Banquet Table each night, must secretively be Energy Executives in Training.
Or have the Fire Stations been quietly taken over by Socialists?
Are we experiencing the need to reward Capitalists through competitiveness, or is this the slippery road to Socialism?
That is the question.
We want names.
The poster who said the guy being fired is probably retiring this year anyway..is probably exactly right.
How exactly will the others be disciplined?
The public is not satisfied with this outcome.
@new city hall.....yes they spend like drunken sailors on things we don't want...like overpaid firefrauders.
Firefighters:
Job = Put out fires, once in a while.
Other times, sitting on their YKW
Average Salary = $180,000 a year
Qualification = HS diploma
Crime = Stealing money claiming sickness
Consequence = one fired, 16 disciplined
Teachers
Job = Teaching future leaders, 7 hours
officially, 5 days a week with
weekends and nights work unpaid
Qualification = college degree
Average Salary = $45,000
Crime = Teaching future leaders and
failure to make the unmotivated children
of couldn't care less parents to learn
Consequence = 3,000 fired
Politicians
Job = Run the government
Qualification = Run your mouth
Average Salary = Who knows
Crime = Fiscal mismanagement
Consequence = More power to stick it to the less
fortunate.
LONG LIVE IDIOCY!
Here are the questions for you:
What do firefighters do when they are not on call fighting fires?
NOTHING!!!!!!
Why should we pay them if they're doing NOTHING when they're not on call fighting fires?
Why do we HAVE to pay them when they go to Sam's Club for grocery shopping?
Why do we HAVE to pay them when they go to the mall for begging donation?
Why do we HAVE to pay them when they're watching TV, play games, chit-chat, exercises, daydreaming, and napping?
ASADTEACHER-really? Get over yourself.
Davy-I am so sorry you are so ignorant to what being a firefighter truly entails, but that is ok, I will fill you in. When they are not running calls, they are training, writing reports, doing school drills, providing tours and education to the public, maintaining their station, inspecting their equipment, testing hydrants, and much more. That is just a brief overview of what their day involves.
Hmm, why do they get paid for going to Sam's Club? Well, let's see. They do not get a nice, set time to have a break, which is Federal and State Mandated. Should they all go out of service? Would that make you happy? I am sure they would be very satisfied knowing that when they get to take their break, which is REQUIRED by LAW, they actually get to finish it. If your employer, you are employed, right?, does not give you your breaks as required by LAW, please follow through and make sure that happens. FURTHERMORE, there are employers that DO provide PAID breaks for their staff. If you don't have one of those jobs, then maybe you should find one, and then YOU will be happy.
mrss,
Don't call me ignorant. it sounds like you think firefighters should earn over $100,000. That's okay because you're an ignorant. The firefighters union proposed 1.5% pay cut? Oh please! Educators, Teachers, College Professors and colleges/universities have give up so much $$$$$$. The firefighters should take 20% pay cuts, 5 sick days per year, and never abuse sick days.
The fire station is 3 minutes from my house, I see them EVERY single DAY. I see them cleaning the trucks, inspecting the equipments, and the list goes on. That is NOT enough. We don't pay them $180,000 for doing that tasks everyday. COME ON!!!
They have a plenty of BREAKS everyday. I am not stupid because I can see them from my house.
Nancy:
I'm the biggest supporter of teachers out there. I've been to the demonstrations, most recently at Cashman field. I've been to the school board meetings, and have personally written every legislator in this state to defend education.
One of the biggest issues I have with education "reformers" is that they paint all teachers with broad strokes, accusing "teachers" as a group of being the problem with education. You and I both know that such accusations are simply not supported by fact, and that a very small percentage of teachers working today are actually the so called "bad" teachers that are being used as an excuse to eviscerate education.
I know from your posts in this forum that you are typically thoughtful and analytical about the situation surrounding education.
As a reasonable person, I'd expect you to view this situation with the firefighters in the same way. After a year of investigation into allegations of misconduct, the county has determined that 16 firefighters have engaged in misconduct. (To be fair, the RJ is reporting the number at 14, with at least one accused firefighter apparently providing medical records to prove that the alleged "abuse" of sick leave was in fact a legitimate use of sick time for medical reasons.)
As you would expect teachers to be judged on their individual merits and not on the shortcomings of your own peers, I'd expect a reasonable person like yourself to treat the firefighters, or any other group in the same manner.
Your blatant generalizations of firefighters is neither fair or reasonable, as at best about 2% of the county's firefighters were disciplined after a year long investigation into the issue.
Please understand that I in no way intend to defend the misconduct that the firefighters being disciplined engaged in. I've said from the beginning that those proven guilty of misconduct should be fired. If in fact the county has evidence against 16, and only 1 is being terminated, I don't think the county is going far enough.
However I don't believe that a group of 800 should be judged based on the failures of 16, just as I don't believe that a group of 18,000 should be judged based on the shortcomings of a few hundred.
Davy-So you ACTUALLY see them watchin tv, playing games, daydreaming, and napping? If that is the case, then I'd say you are a peeping tom or a stalker. Just saying.
I know how hard they work and I know how MUCH they have to work to even come close to $100,000. It is the equivalent to having 2 FULL-TIME jobs. Heck, If I worked my job twice, I would have money too. But, I like being with my family during the holidays, school events, and just being with them period. So, I will not be working two full-time jobs.
Not once in my reply to you did I mention sick leave abuse. I know, it's the easy catch-all for the "fire-haters" out there. Did I say no one should follow policy? Nope, didn't say that nor do I believe that. Furthermore, not ALL the firefighters here in Southern Nevada are County. So, be careful on trying to paint everyone with one stroke, because that will make you appear IGNORANT. Tah tah for now. I won't be responding anymore. Not worth my time. I prefer to be with my family. I suggest you do the same.
The easiest way to solve this is to put FF on straight salary. They earn more than enough to classed as exempt to begin with.
At the very least any pension contributions should be based *only* on base pay, not OT.
FF want to be considered professionals, and many have or get a specialized degree. Fine, treat them as such and take away OT pay in exchange for a fair, pure, salary.
Teachers make $45k, and glorified paramedics make over $100k??
Is it any wonder this is the dumbest city?
Just because they have only caught 16 does not mean more were not participating. I believe over 1/3 had excessive amounts of sick leave.
Botfx:
You can't require individuals to work more than 40 hours without overtime. The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (and amendments, FLSA) clearly requires employers to pay overtime to all non-exempt employees.
"Exempt" employees, as the name implies, are "exempt" from certain federal wage and hour laws that otherwise apply to most employees. If the employee is "non-exempt" all wage and hour laws apply to them. The most notable example is overtime.
Non-exempt employees are entitled to overtime, exempt employees are not. Work hours, as is the case with the fire department, can be altered to fall outside of the 40 hour rule contained in the FLSA. This is done through a contractual agreement that all parties to a contract agree to, and that is voted on by a the membership of the bargaining unit.
There are three types of employees that are exempt under federal law: executive, administrative and professional. A big misconception is that paying a "salary" alone makes an employee "exempt." Not true. In addition to payment on a salary basis, there is a "duties test." For example, an "executive exempt" person's "primary duties" must consist of the management of the enterprise (or a recognized department or subdivision) and also the customary and regular direction of the work of two or more employees, and the right to hire and fire. If those additional tests are not met, the employee is not "exempt." Both the "administrative" and "professional" exemption each has their own additional "duties" tests that workers like firefighters and police officers do not meet.
What does this all mean? While firefighters' job descriptions may list an "annual salary," the way that salary is determined is by application of an hourly wage to a "full time" work schedule as determined by the contract. The county determines a firefighter's bi-weekly pay based on the number of hours worked, including all hours worked beyond the negotiated "full time" schedule (paid in accordance with federal law at time and one half) and pays the employee based on total hours worked, not as a fraction of a predetermined sum.
Were the county to simply lay out a "flat rate" salary, there would likely be grounds for a class action lawsuit alleging violations of the FLSA against the county.
keystone6, as an exempt employee for almost my entire working life I am very much aware of the law regarding this.
I propose that FF be classed as "exempt". That is a very easy solution to this problem.
You may not be aware of it, but California law allows for anyone making 2.5 times the minimum wage to be classed as exempt. FF in Clark County easily fall into that category on the base wage. Nevada law spells outs the professions that can be classed as exempt. Well, FF consistently call themselves "professional" and have special degrees to back that up. I say treat them as such and make them exempt.
Make them exempt, give them a fair salary, and almost every problem we have now is dealt with, including the pensions.
???
Boffie actually makes sense.
There are exceptions to FLSA.
Here is a list.
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen...
One does not have to play Airlines employees overtime. However, one can enter into a contract that says that one has to pay overtime to airline employees.
Fire Fighters that work for large fire departments are not on the exception list.
Slow news day, then let's rehash the firefighter debate, then lets all jump on the bandwagon to express how evil firefighters are.
So, how many of you actually know the base hourly rate FF's make? Have you looked at the CCFD official wage and salary page? I am hard pressed to believe you have spent 2 minutes to look it up. I would like to ask you, if you worked for a corporation and your CEO/owner/boss was breaking the law or rules, does that mean you are guilty because you work for someone with low integrity? Or is it possible it doesn't include you because you were not involved? Because a few people made poor decisions doesn't mean the departments as a whole are doing the same.
With this being said, I ask each of you who have so much contempt for the FD; why don't you apply for rookie school? Clearly you feel this job is a cake walk. I am not weak, am certainly not a coward, but I can tell you there is no way I could do what these men and women do. So many are quick to assume that all the FD does is run fire calls. Who do you think goes to every car accident? Drug overdose? Domestic violence? Heart attacks? Child/adult drownings? Stabbings? Shootings? I can not wrap my head around the fact you would all be this naive!!!!!
So, while you vote to get rid of the FD's, keep in mind no one will be at your beck and call for even the most ridiculous call you place to 911...
@ jonmasters323~ I agree, clearly we don't have enough "news" here in our state so let's ALL hope the hate wagon for a day! Beyond frustering if you want my opinion. I would like to tell these haters to call a 'waaabulance" becasue they sound like a bunch of uninformed ingornant beings...The only thing I see making a difference is when one of these fools actually NEEDS the FD and the FD is not available; or better yet~ the FD saves their life or the life of their children! Possibly they will "get it" then.....
Good one "A sad teacher". Very well said.
I am a part time teacher and make $12,500 a year. I have two degrees, B.A. and M.Ed.
FF makes way more than I make. Is it fair? of course not. They sure are greedy.
The firemen should have to pay back all the MILLIONS OF DOLLARS they stole from the taxpayers for sick pay and overtime pay ..The firemen are OVER PAID and should be FIRED.. 200,000 Thousand Dollars a year pay.. What a WASTE of TAXPAYERS MONEY..
Davy, you are ignorant but before you get all irate, look up the definition. As a former FF I do know that FFs do more than "just running fire calls". I looked up the stats for the department and the CCFD had over 120k calls. Divide this among the total number of stations and you have an average. Of course there are slow and busy stations. Maybe you happen to live near a slow one. Wouldn't you think it criminal for your FD to show up on an emergency scene with missing/broken equipment? This is why FFs check their equipment and FFs, believe it or not, have pride in their equipment is why you always see them polishing their rigs... after all they understand that they are just stewards with *your* equipment. Now, as a former FF I find it disgraceful to have FFs who are lazy and have a feeling of entitlement whereas they abuse the trust we give them. For this small percentage I think they need to be appropriately managed. This "inside source story" I consider too premature to begin spouting off as many have. What is the discipline for the sixteen? Is it more than one terminated? Would the termination number have been higher but many of the abusers retired?? etc, etc, etc.
botfx:
Being an exempt employee for most of your life apparently has done nothing to actually educate you on what an exempt employee is, what the standards are for determining exemption status, and who makes those determinations.
There are two determining factors that impact exemption from FLSA. The first is pay, the second is work responsibilities.
While firefighters may fall into an exemption category because of their pay levels, they most certainly do not based on their work responsibilities.
FLSA clearly defines three "duties tests" for exemption based on work responsibility. Executive exemption, Professional exemption and administrative exemption.
I've already explained the executive exemption above, and why firefighters and cops don't fit into it. The professional exemption exists for workers like scientists, accountants, engineers, doctors and lawyers. To qualify for a professional exemption, workers must have education beyond high school, and usually beyond college, in fields that are distinguished from (more "academic" than) the mechanical arts or skilled trades. Advanced degrees are the most common measure of this, but are not absolutely necessary if an employee has attained a similar level of advanced education through other means.
Administrative exemptions exist for relatively high-level employees whose main job is to "keep the business running." Employees who make what the business sells are not administrative employees. Administrative employees provide "support" to the operational or production employees. They are "staff" rather than "line" employees.
To be exempt under the administrative exemption, the "staff" or "support" work must be office or nonmanual, and must be for matters of significance. Clerical employees perform office or nonmanual support work but are not administratively exempt.
Administratively exempt work typically involves the exercise of discretion and judgment, with the authority to make independent decisions on matters which affect the business as a whole or a significant part of it.
Neither Firefighters or Police officers fall into any of the above listed exemptions. Therefor by law they must be paid overtime, like any other hourly employee.
If the county followed your misguided and reactionary advice and deemed firefighters "exempt" from FLSA, the county would be subject to an unfair labor practice claim that would likely turn into a class action lawsuit that the county would definitely lose.
The question of controlling overtime in the fire department is a valid one, and needs to be addressed to control costs and ensure a quality "product" from the workers. However, controlling overtime through shady practices or cheap tricks that clearly violate established legal precedent would be counterproductive for the county.
boftx - I like it, I like it a lot. I don't know about the percentage of them that have special degrees, but you're right, they should be salaried.
I am always amazed at how the goal-posts are moved when it comes to fraud. Halliburton 'over-billed' the US tax payer some $61 million dollars for fuel contracts in Iraq and blamed 'accounting errors'. The FBI was busted in Iraq with rampant & systemic abuse of overtime - billing the tax-payer for laundry and cocktail parties! Each FBI employee was netting about $40 grand per 90 day tour in the relatively safe and comfortable green-zone. The overtime was submitted electronically which of course becomes wire fraud by federal statute. FBI guru Muller responded by saying they would 'review the policy'.
Folks, you can't make this stuff up!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...
Today is a a great day! Now, everyone knows only 17 firefighters abused sick time, not the 240 that were being accused. Yes, it is a shame that 17 of them abused sick time, but I am relieved to know that the other 683 firefighters have done nothing wrong. I fell bad for the 683 firefighters whom had their integrity questioned, and their reputation tarnished.
Will the media work just as hard to vindicate these firefighters, as they did to destroy their reputation? I doubt it!
The firefighters still have a problem. Although, the fire department shut down several pieces of apparatuses and are using the firefighters to fill in the vacancies; thus, reducing overtime. They still depend on firefighters to work overtime to fill vacancies created by vacation and legitimate sick time use. Although, it would be cheaper to have the firefighters continue to work overtime, the county has to stop it! I am not saying they should shut down anymore essential positions or pieces of apparatus, i.e., hazardous material unit, heavy rescue, truck companies, medical supervisors, paramedic rescues that provide advanced life support, etc. The county needs hire more firefighters to assure none of them will make over six figures. Yes, I know this will cost more money, but we have to make sure they are not allowed to work anymore overtime! We cannot have these "blue-collar workers" making over six figures; I don't care how many hours they work.
"... training, writing reports, doing school drills, providing tours and education to the public, maintaining their station, inspecting their equipment, testing hydrants,..."
Looks like the bulk of their work time is administrative work. BTW: How does the FLSA classify sleeping on the job? Executive?
"Administratively exempt work typically involves the exercise of discretion and judgment, with the authority to make independent decisions on matters which affect the business as a whole or a significant part of it."
At the county, dozens of Senior Management Analysts are Exempt. They do not meet this criteria.
It appears that the primary duty of a person assigned to a fire station is not attending to fires. An exempt status seems justified.
Scott,
Simply because you choose to spin something to meet your narrow analysis of a situation, does not make it factual.
One could say that the vast majority of the time, a police officer spends completing paperwork related to investigations or incidents. In fact, the whole job of police work involves the exercise of "discretion and judgement." However, like firefighters, police do not have the "authority to make independent decisions on matters which affect the business as a whole or a significant part of it."
See, there's this whole pickle about meeting the whole criteria, not just parts of it. We have these things called federal courts that decide matters such as the one you are attempting to manipulate to fit your narrative. They've decided time and again that cops, firefighters, garbage collectors, water workers, meter maids, etc. do not meet an exemption threshold to the FLSA.
Keep grasping though. It's fun to watch.
NW Dweller,
Your reputation is already ruined...I do not TRUST FF for being stealing my money. They ought to be FIRED.
How about this?
Whenever FF gets a call, they get paid.
When there is no call, They will NOT get paid.
Fair is Fair.
Davy,
You complain about being a "part time" teacher making only $12,500. Yet the school district is currently staffed heavily with long term substitute teachers.
If you really are what you claim to be, you should have had no problem finding a full time teaching position in the school district this year. The fact that you are whining about what you apparently deem to be unfair compensation for your work, while seemingly ignoring obvious opportunities to achieve full time employment in your chosen career makes me question the integrity of your statements.
How about this; you get a full time teaching job and stop complaining about your situation. Until you've squared yourself away, you don't have much room to dictate the way other people work or are compensated.
Big Deal !!....a little hand slapping and back to their early retirements and 6 figure salaries.
Scott and Davy, quit while your behind. Keystone is obviously educated and are making you two look like fools! I for one enjoy it, but it's doing nothing for your agenda. Keystone, maybe we could get Joe Schoemann to debate you, he wouldnt dare, you would make him look more inept than he already is.
One thing that needs to be done is to make pensions based on "base salary only", and averaged over the last 5-10 years. This will eliminate those who pump up their salary in the last year or 2 by having an accomodating supervisor authorize tons of overtime and pay for vacation days instead of time off (vacation?) to add to their final year's pay, thus substantially increasing their pension after retiring. Those doing that are bankrupting the system and the taxpayers are getting tired of having their pockets picked. At the salaries they make it can no longer be considered "public service".
Keystone6,
I applied for a full time position at the school district. They said they are not hiring at this time due to budget crisis..
Comment removed by moderator. Name-calling.
The discipline will no doubt amount to more un-earned vacation, with pay.
Joe,
I agree with the suggested revisions to the pension system.
However, the rhetoric about the salaries the firefighters earn is getting old. Every worker in every job should receive appropriate pay for the hours worked. In the case of the fire department, management has decided that paying out overtime and allowing workers to work 96+ hours per week is the appropriate way to staff the department. The merits of this policy are highly questionable, however the staffing policy has led us to where we are today.
FIRE all fire fighters and re-hire at 1/3rd cost Genuine NYC fire fighters , then move on the cops and all other government and taxpayers of Nevada would save BILLIONS yrly.
Davy:
http://www.ccsd.net/jobs/LLPopps.php
CCSD is ALWAYS hiring full time qualified teachers. I guess we know where that leaves you.
Michael Portch:
FDNY firefighter pay hits $100K within 5 years.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/commun...
There's no way in hell that you'd be able to get a "genuine" NYC firefighter to come to Vegas at 1/3 of the pay a firefighter here makes. Sorry pal, ain't going to happen.
Davy,
They will not hire full time teachers, because the benefits cost too much. It is cheaper to hire part time teachers, or pay teachers overtime. Your union should not allow the county to hire part time teachers. This will force them to pay you benefits you deserve. But, the school district might fire all of the part time teachers, and depend on the full time teachers work overtime.
Be careful, this could blow up in your face! The school district might fire all of the part time teachers, and depend on the full time teachers to work overtime; not wanting to pay benefits for new employees. Teachers will work sixteen hour days, and teach summer school and some will be making over six figures. Then someone will political clout, will become jealous of your pay. He will find a few teachers who have abused the system, and then "paint all of you with the same brush." His friends who own T.V. stations, newspapers will print negative stories on teachers, and make all of you appear to be abusers of the system. Then after two years of tarnishing your reputation, and destroying your image, the truth will come out. But, it will be too late, the damage has been done. who knows how long it will take to gain the public trust agin.
Good Luck
ASadTeacher (Nancy Agustin)
Seems like you don't want to be bothered with facts and your just a little be envious of Firefighters, probably because you choose to be a teacher and unfortunately are under paid. Teachers should be better paid. But as a teacher I would think you might check the facts before showing your ignorance of the facts.
Try using your computer for research and you'll quickly find that the average Nevada Firefighter makes $47,000 a year. Here's a link to just one of the many sites out there that can give you the facts!
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Firefight...
Oh, BTW I found that a teacher in Nevada makes $44,426 a year, but that's based on working 9 months a year. Kinda looks a little wrong when you look at those facts huh?
Before you accuse me of being a Las Vegas Firefighter.. I not.. but I am a firefighter, just not in your state.
Keystone,
You blather almost as much as I do. But there's almost no content to all your keystrokes, Keystone.
For starters, "Every worker in every job should receive appropriate pay for the hours worked" is a silly, Pollyannish notion that never has nor never will reflect real life. "You should have had no problem finding a full time teaching position in the school district this year...you are... seemingly ignoring obvious opportunities to achieve full time employment." COME ON! What galaxy did YOU just fall in from?? Teachers are being given pink slips right and left. I can't tell you the number of teachers my kids have told me that either have, in fact, been told they have no job after next month, or are scared $h!tle$$ that they are about to get axed. Oh, and by the way, substitute teachers make $80 per day, with zero benefits. You preached "simply because you choose to spin something to meet your narrow analysis of a situation, does not make it factual." Now let's practice THAT.
And by the way, all your gobbledyg00k about the FSLA is nice in theory. But A) from salaried but unskilled clerks in a Casino to similarly unskilled but salaried employees at Walmart, the reality of no overtime in our nation's workforce is abundantly clear. Anyway, the gobbledyg00k about the FSLA is a distraction from the crime taking place of FF averaging $180K per year.
We don't have that kind of money to throw away, nobody else pays that much, and each FF is not worth four-plus teacher's in salary.
Keystone,
You've done an admirable job of attempting to educate the fire-bashers, however, they don't want to be educated or maybe they're just incapable of being educated. I doubt that any of them are the least bit familiar with the rules of FLSA as it applies to FF's. Ignorance is bliss.
Oh, and if anyone doubts my last remark about FF not deserving what they're paid, try this: put word out throughout the West that Las Vegas is recruiting firefighters. The pay is (only 50% of the present average) $90K, overtime considered inclusive. I guarantee men and women will come a-knockin'.
Keystone,
These positions are not what I am looking for. They're not hiring foreign language teacher. HINT.
Sacrificial lambs er, lamb.
They should all be fired.
Davy:
Maybe you should have gotten certified in a secondary concentration then, no? Make yourself more marketable in a difficult job market?
Perhaps if you were truly motivated to teach, instead of throwing a pity party for yourself, you'd work on a certification in special education (for which this district is woefully understaffed) or even GASP! math or science, which have always been, and always will be in demand.
As an already certified teacher, you may be able to achieve a math or science certification through a non-traditional route, and actually attain full time work while completing your math or science certificate.
But enough hand holding for you. As an adult, you should be able to figure this stuff out for yourself, and if you can't pick up on these basic options, well maybe teaching isn't for you at all.
Moving on to you DTJ;
You consider the concept of fair pay for hours worked "pollyannaish." I consider it a basic human right. Your offhanded dismissal of workers rights shows clearly what is wrong with this country today. Frankly, your dismissal of basic tenants of federal labor law show that you are absolutely clueless about that "real world."
Keep in mind a few things:
1) Salaried employees at Walmart are exempt because they work in supervisory and management positions.
2) Hourly employees at Walmart, people like deli clerks, stock crews and checkers, are all hourly employees. Just ask an hourly employee at Walmart how many hours they work each week, and I'll guarantee not one of them will say 40. Most will say 38 or 39. Continue to ask them what happens if they happen to stay clocked in for more than 39 hours, and you'll hear that those salaried "management" employees will write them up, suspend or fire them. Why? Because after they work 40 hours, the FLSA requires Walmart to pay that employee overtime, and that employee would be eligible for benefits.
The labor practices of Walmart and other corporations are specifically designed to circumvent the protections offered to employees by the FLSA. You call the FLSA protections "gobbledygo0k," however facts are facts. Firefighters cannot be compelled to work overtime without the federally mandated OT pay.
Whether or not people are willing to do so for "$90K OT inclusive" as you suggest, the county attempting to employ people to do so would be a violation of 73 years of codified federal law, BECAUSE firefighters are not exempt employees. In other words, it isn't going to happen.
The only way to reduce firefighter overtime is to increase the number of firefighter employees available to work the hours currently being filled by workers on OT.
This really isn't a difficult problem to either understand or solve.
mrss--you forgot to mention that one of their duties apparently involves soliciting money for Jerry Lewis and Muscular Dystrophy. On my last trip to Vegas I couldn't believe that firemen had the nerve to do that on LV Blvd, when the public knows they are doing it while they are on the clock.
And for the record, the County's public information officer says that there were 14 investigated, not 16.
I know that Joe isn't one for detailed journalism, but I think we should at least be speaking in accurate terms when we're talking about this issue.
And manfromuncle1;
There are literally hundreds of thousands of firefighters across the country who support the MDA every year, and have done so for more than half a century. It isn't a unique thing to Vegas, and it isn't a problem anywhere else to my knowledge. Get over it.
Do building codes require sprinklers in New Homes and Apartments? They should. The sooner we install automatic systems, the sooner we can trim this FF fat.
Keystone,
I did not call the FLSA gobbledyg00k. I called YOUR POST gobbledyg00k.
Now then, for your continuing lies about education:
"...special education (for which this district is woefully understaffed) or even GASP! math or science, which have always been, and always will be in demand..."
Pluto calling Keystoned -- come home. You're embarrassing the rest of Pluto. The facts are that heads are rolling even faster in CCSD special education than for other specialties. Schools are NOT hiring in math and science, either. They're F.I.R.I.N.G. Everybody knows this. I don't have a dog in Davy's fight, but it's manifestly clear that you making up crap in your comments directed at him, have no factual point to make, and are deluding yourself in thinking that do.
As for my off-the-cuff suggestion about recruiting FF for $90K per yer, "overtime inclusive," please don't be so dense. For the sake of brevity, I left out any hypothetical workout of details, presuming that most mature minds would understand this. But for you, I will toss out one possible scenario: a base salary of X amount of dollars is established. The difference between X and $90K -- call this amount Y -- is considered "overtime compensation" and no practical case will ever incur the hours necessary to attain Y, but we'll pay it, as per contract, because it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than the $180K rip-off that you are an apologist for. "Overtime inclusive" clauses exist in contracts in the real world; I wish I could remember an example, now that I need to. But who cares? I've spoon fed you enough, as it is.
"The only way to reduce firefighter overtime is to increase the number of firefighter employees..."
What a crock! What you do is crack down on the scamming they're getting away with. Other fire departments around the nation don't have this obscene problem. Talk to people who have spent a career working as a firefighter -- I've talked to FF from L.A., from Cleveland, and from Boston. They are OUTRAGED at this thievery going on here. They are proud of their profession, they are proud of their careers, and they are rightly angered by the disgrace to their profession as public servants that LV FF are perpetrating. A disgrace which you are bending over backwards to shamelessly excuse and perpetuate.
Stop making crap up Keystone. Stop being a part of the obscene problem.
Manfromuncle,
I've always wondered if all that cash those FF peddle from us (in the middle of traffic, like "homeless" scammers) really makes it to Jerry Lewis. Now that we all know how the fire department institutionalized stealing from the public, I think we have our answer.
DTJ
Firefighters are collecting money for kids who suffer with neuromuscular disease. The donations helps pay for camps, wheelchairs, and towards research for a cure. Many firefighters donate their time to help with camps every year. You should education yourself on this disease, and have a little respect for what firefighters have been doing for years.
http://www.mda.org/
Claudia,
Don't be so presumptuous as to think I, or anyone else, needs to be "educated" on Muscular Dystrophy. We all know what the supposed *premise* is of the FF's accosting motorists at stop lights, a la homeless panhandlers. It's just less and less plausible that the FF's can be trusted.
"Have a little respect for what firefighters have been doing for years." Like ripping off the people of Las Vegas for hundreds of thousands of dollars, per FF, per year?? Oh yeah. Plenty of respect.
WAKE UP! Some a$$-kickin' and some disinfecting needs to be done. THEN you can have the audacity to come to us expecting respect. (Sheesh, the shamelessness of some people...)
DTJ:
I've not made up anything. The fact remains that you are attempting to concoct some pie in the sky method of compensation that has no basis in the law or reality.
Example:
An employment contract listed all the duties a retail supervisor in MB was required to perform. The agreement stated that her $42,000 salary was "inclusive of all hours required to be worked" to fulfill those listed duties. After the supervisor was fired, she sued her employer for unpaid overtime. The Labour Board ordered the employer to pay the supervisor $10,240 in overtime. A term that purports to set a flat salary covering all hours worked "is inconsistent with," and an attempt to evade, the requirement that employees receive overtime for long hours. So the Board ruled that the "inclusive of all hours" language was unenforceable and the employer was liable for failure to pay overtime. And the Court of Appeal upheld the ruling [Nygard International Partnership Associates (Re), [2005] M.J. No. 309, Sept. 9, 2005], application for appeal dismissed [2006] S.C.C.A. No. 484].
So go screw. You are wrong. There isn't any more discussion to be had here. You don't know what you are talking about. Period. End of story.
Firefighters get paid overtime for each hour worked over their base schedule. The law says so, the courts say so.
As for the problem of teachers: Clark County School District is RIGHT NOW trying to put "surplused" classroom teachers into special education classrooms to fill vacant holes in the special education staff. CCSD will likely face a lawsuit over this policy as they are attempting to have personnel who do not hold a license in spec. ed teach in those classrooms.
Again, you don't know what you are talking about.
Keystone:
Please forgive me. I did not intend to put any firefighter down. I am simply doing a compare and contrast. It is not anyone's fault, but it is simply the way things are. It's what I call the luck of the draw. When things are bad, people look for scapegoats. The teachers are it. You are lucky you are not it, even though you got a little singed (pun unintended).
Also DTJ:
FLSA Rights Cannot Be Waived
Employers frequently believe that so long as their employees agree to certain pay arrangements, then there is no violation of the law. This is not the case. Employees cannot agree to waive their rights under the FLSA. For example, your employees may agree to a work arrangement where they receive additional pay, benefits, and/or time off in exchange for giving up overtime pay. They may even be willing to sign a written contract to that effect. Yet such agreements are no defense to a finding of an FLSA violation by the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL). The law -- not the employer or even the employee -- defines an employer's FLSA obligations. Employers need to know that an employee who willingly goes along with, or even requests, an illegal pay arrangement has the right to sue the employer for FLSA violations and recover any back pay he is owed under the law, in addition to keeping the extra pay and benefits he already pocketed under the illegal compensation system.
Damn those pesky laws.
We all know the firefighters premeditated and gamed the system and hence trampled all over the public trust.
They have no right to fly American flags on the back of their trucks.
keystone doesn't want "to concoct some pie in the sky method of compensation that has no basis in the law or reality."
He prefers the method of the frauders ripping off the taxpayers to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Keystone -- you're making up straw arguments and fleeing from those I present.
"School District is RIGHT NOW trying to put "surplused" classroom teachers into special education classrooms to fill vacant holes in the special education staff".
BS!! Not only are you making this up, but none of this, as it pertains to unemployed teachers, would have mattered anyway -- it would be merely a shuffle of the deck, "NOT new HIRING,' and not the phony scenario you proclaimed with "jobs always is demand" that you wildly proclaimed in your diatribe of lies to Davy.
You are a fraud. A *lightweight,* fraud.
On another matter I put forth but which you shrank from honestly addressing, only to slink off to the side to take innacurate, irrelevant pots shots atme , is the fact that I NEVER suggested NOR mentioned that someone should "waive" any of their rights, FLSA, or other. What I did, hypothetically pose (simply as a toss-away example, and in the long view of things, I'm neither partisan for or against), goes like this: "Y" amount of dollars for over-time hours are guaranteed and paid, in addition to a base salary of "X." In reality, but more importantly, no FF is ever scheduled for his fully contracted amount of "Y" -- He/she can never "max out."
He/she is only on the schedule for those hours for which proper approval has been obtained. Limits -- quite generous limits compared to other juristictions, mind you, are put in place. (Most FF in other juristictions do NOT book -- nor need to book -- the ridiculous numbers of overtime hours that the LV FF's do.)
This way, a FF pockets the difference between overtime hours actually worked and those paid. At an hypothetical $90K per year, the total remuneration remains rather nice. But far more viable propostion for a failing public purse to have to cover.
This outline of this plan is not something I've put much thought into, and it's not my original concept either. I CANNOT remember where (Forbes?, Fortune?) but I saw a profile on some manufacturer back east that was structuring the compensation for there factory floor's work force with just such incentives put in place to reduce delays and labor costs but incentivize worker cooperation. Tear up the whole, present, corrupt arrangement. Just trying to poison the water with your otiose distractions fools no one, Keysie. You suffer delusions of being informed, of having interesting notions poeple just can't wait to hear all about. What you are is unimaginative, run-of-the-mill internet phony living out Walter Mitty-like glories in your head, while the rest of us around here dismiss you like so much as a fart we left in bed this morning.
Oh, and as for this desperate shrillness:
"You are wrong. There isn't any more discussion to be had here. You don't know what you are talking about. Period. End of story.... La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la -- I CAN'T HEAR YOU! La-la-la..."
Nice stuff, Keystoned.
Neutral observers will suggest you want OUT because your running scared. You now know your cheesey little gig is up. You made the mistake of picking on someone far more relentless and far more obsessed by honestry they you could ever compete with. You smell this like a fox hound smells his own impending death as he futilely runs from the teethnashing, sinewy hell hounds. As long as you slink around here spreading lies, attacking, and being stupid on this forum, you won't be left alone.I RELISH the chance to squash small-fry phonies like you. No holds barred, I wanna see all that you can bring, buster. I'll be logged on here same time tomorrow evening. My keyboard is mightier than that effluence oozing out of your frightened, chattering, key board. I'll be around, waiting...