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By Kyle B. Hansen (contact) 
Tuesday, Feb. 15, 2011 | 4:11 p.m.
Sick leave abuse
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KSNV coverage of County Commission's continuing investigation into alleged fire department sick leave abuse, Feb. 15, 2011.
Sun archives
- County OKs contract with firefighters that saves $7.4 million (2-1-2010)
- Arbitrator backs county over firefighters’ union in contract negotiations (1-19-2011)
- County firefighters union preaches frugality, to others (11-2-2010)
- Sisolak offers proof of firefighters ‘gaming’ sick leave system (9-11-2010)
- County, firefighters’ union spar over contract negotiations (8-3-2010)
- Is a wave of county firefighter retirements on the horizon? (6-25-2010)
- Rory Reid says firefighters union resorting to ‘scare tactic’ with ad (6-15-2010)
- County considers plan to privatize airport firefighting force (6-11-2010)
- New plan to curtail Clark County firefighter overtime (6-5-2010)
- Staffing shuffle would cut county Fire Department overtime (5-20-2010)
- Las Vegas, Clark County collaborate to limit firefighter overtime (4-27-2010)
- Fire union resists move to increase its ranks, reduce overtime costs (4-16-2010)
- Has fire union support become a campaign curse? (4-15-2010)
Clark County is continuing to investigate abuse of sick leave in the fire department and is looking into the possibility of seeking reimbursement from the firefighters’ retirement program.
Assistant County Manager Ed Finger gave an update to county commissioners Tuesday on the use of sick leave in the fire department. In their last meeting, Finger presented evidence to commissioners that some firefighters have abused the sick-leave policy.
Finger said the county has implemented new administrative procedures for sick leave use, which he said will prevent abuse.
He also said the county is reviewing the possibility of adjusting firefighters’ pension payments with the Nevada Public Employees Retirement System if an investigation shows that a firefighters abused the system.
However, while the county has employee e-mails that suggest some firefighters preplanned sick leave and coordinated their use of leave with other people, proving a particular person was or wasn’t sick on any given day is difficult to do, Finger said.
“The vast majority of e-mails, in my opinion, were circumstantial, and there’s probably very little opportunity to say those e-mails in some way would directly result in our adjusting wages or pensions wages,” Finger said.
Commissioner Steve Sisolak, who has been the most critical of firefighters on the commission, told Finger the county might not be able to prove it, but law enforcement agencies can.
Sisolak previously said he has asked Metro Police, the FBI and the district attorney’s office to investigate the use of sick leave and callback in the department.
Finger said there is some precedence for getting reimbursements from PERS. A few years ago, the county investigated the use of callback, when a firefighter is called in to work on short notice, and discovered the county had paid into some firefighters’ retirement funds for time that wasn’t eligible.
The county ended up getting more than $800,000 back from PERS, Finger said.
In a theoretical example, Sisolak said a firefighter could get as much as $2.4 million in extra pay if he or she lived several years after retiring.
Finger said the county’s efforts to prove abuse of the system were intended to show an arbitrator that the firefighters’ contract needed to be changed to give county administrators more tools to combat the abuse.
That was accomplished when the arbitrator chose the county’s proposed contract, which allows management to request a doctor’s note when a firefighter uses more than five sick days a year. The old contract required a firefighter to call in sick four consecutive shifts before a note could be required.
“We’re focused on the future, we’re focused on making sure it doesn’t happen again,” Finger said.
Commissioner Larry Brown said that while he supports investigating abuse, he doesn’t want the county to get lost looking backward. He said the county needs to work to create a culture of transparency and confidence in all of the government, including the fire department.
Sisolak directed county staff to work with law enforcement agencies investigating abuse and said he hoped the firefighters’ union would do the same.
If anyone abused sick time there is only one solution. TERMINATION of their employment.
Reimbursement is not good enough. I want reimbursement AND criminal charges AND pension adjustments AND terminations. Why are they being soft on millions being stolen. This is ridiculous that they are looking for an easy way out. Someone better be prosecuted. When you do these pansies will squeal and then we will know the extent of the damage and theft.
Larry Brown wants to look forward. Larry you lost my vote.
not only must there be terminations...
THERE MUST BE CRIMINAL CHARGES!!!
NEVER EVER EVER VOTE FOR LARRY BROWN AGAIN!!!
hey ed finger...
do you realize that people have been convicted of murder based on circumstantial evidence alone???
who the hell are you to offer up a legal opinion???
hey sheriff doug gillespie...
what the hell have you been doing about this???
hey steve sisolak...
run for governor buddy...
please...
i beg you...
you have my vote...
and i would be proud to volunteer for your organization...
private birdiedreamin reporting for duty el capitan...
STEVE SISOLAK FOR GOVERNOR!!!
Wonder about sick time in Metro
wanna puke???
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
Chunky says:
"Abuse" may not be the same as "breaking the law" or "violating department policy".
If the employees have simply manipulated a flawed system it's wrong and that loop-hole needs to be closed.
If they violated department policy or broke the law they should be dealt with accordingly.
Regardless of the semantics if they've taken tax-payer dollars inappropriately they should be exposed to us taxpayers "We The People" so we know who our friends and neighbors are.
It seems like the burden of proof is going to be on the county against each individual firefighter; probably not an easy task to create the proof needed to go after them.
It still looks and smells bad based on the information presented.
That's what Chunky thinks!
The majority of Las Vegans, commenting via the local social networks, brick and mortars included, relate how they once, as far back as their youth, held firemen in the highest regard. Brave men in blue or heavy canvas jackets who risked their lives charging into flames and or climbing the highest telephone pole to save the day for the entrapped or someone's pet from the heights, respectively.
The negative light they now cower under and kept in the forefront by justice seeking leaders like Mr. Sisolak, depict a fall from grace.
The public trust was broken as greed took advantage of a trusting citizenry.
In Bell California, the public servants who surreptitious gave themselves exorbitant salaries reportedly found amusing their scam and comically characterized themselves as pigs.
Our firefighters blew their image for years to come. Unfortunately the IRS should be around too.
The new generation of youth might be impressed and in awe with the beautiful red trucks, but the elder holding their hands will nary say a word.
FIRE the employees who abused the sick leave. Get rid of them. There's no shortage of honest firefighters that can be hired to replace them. Simple as that.
What is funny is when the Firefighters all showed up @ the meetings showing their 'displeasure' for the county wanting them to take a pay cut! LOL! hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Claw it back Dude...then declare exigency and let a bunch go...it happens.
We all know that this is just a big show so the elected honchos can thump their respective chests for sound bites for their next election.
Ain't nothin' gonna' happen...no pay backs...no prosecutions..nothing!
But these officals can claim, during the next election cycle, that they really, really tried to protect the taxpayers and that they deserve to be re-elected because they are such great watchdogs of the public purse.
All things considered, this should result in most people dismissing a vote for either Brown or Chris G. for mayor. (Brown for his comment in the story, Chris G. for her love of employee unions.)
Unions.........the enemy of American Free Enterprise.
Today driving to work I saw an Audi A6 with firefighter plates. Made me want puke. I'm all for civil servants making good pay, but this is nuts! Highly educated civil servants are makes a fraction of what these under-educated FF are stealing from us.
Keep in mind, as Ed Finger said today, almost all of the "evidence" they have is circumstantial. If it is found that someone misused their sick time usage in a coordinated effort to maximize OT of another and vice versa, than they should be disciplined. Plain and simple. Shame on them for allowing their greedy little minds to convince them in some perverted way that their behavior was justifiable.
Whatever the outcome, the individuals that manipulated the system have violated the trust of the public and of the other decent hard-working employees who have to share the public blame for their selfish actions.
However, I've read the emails. Not much of a smoking gun here. Last week the media said there was 231 "abusers". The email "evidence" shows there were only a small handful of possible abusers. Comparably, my mom has 7 siblings and one is a total jackhole. That's one in eight odds. There are approx. 650 CCFD firefighters and a handful that made these bad choices. That's going to happen in every group whether it's public, private, union or non-union. It's simply human behavior. There's always going to be at least one Bernie Madoff in the bunch.
But how about calling this situation what it is... the isolated behavior of a few bad apples. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify their bad behavior at all. If it is proven that they received compensation they shouldn't have, I hope the money is recovered and they are disciplined. But painting everyone with the same broad brush is a distortion of the facts. It's not fair to the other firefighters, and its not fair to the public who is looking to accurately assess the situation.
DS, how do you know that that A6 wasn't driven by one of the Chiefs with 30 years experience and a Master's Degree of their own? You're letting your your emotions disable your ability to logically reason.
Paul, before Unions the American Free Enterprise you speak of had many examples of mistreating and exploiting its employees. When unions exist in a market non union employers have to tailor their pay and benefits so that they can compete for workers. That raises the bar for all. Have you ever used maternity leave, a lunch break or a weekend? If so, you can thank the labor unions. These are just a few examples, but I'm sure you could come up with others. Unions have done a lot to raise the working conditions all workers.
Buddy, good to see you posting.
I think you have to admit that circumstantial or not, there is good reason for people to be concerned. Is it all that unreasonable to have a full audit and find out just what the extent of this abuse is?
I understand that union negotiators are going to get the best deal they can, but there has to be oversight. Those who abuse that deal have to answer for it. And those who make it possible for such abuse, or condone it, should also be held accountable. That includes elected officials who don't act in the best interest of the citizens who elected them to start out with.
Hi boftx, thanks.
There appears to be good reason to suspect the behavior of an isolated few. And I believe a full audit is completely reasonable, but that's not been the story for the last few weeks. It's been Sisolak and the other media barkers talking about "wide-spread abuse" and "231 abusers", etc. Over half of my crew would fall into the "231 abusers" group. Why? They all had babies. It's just ridiculous to me to compare apples to bananas and then call people abusers. Comparing FF sick time usage to that of an accountant, custodian or judge is worthless. Comparing FFs at CCFD to FFs in Dallas or Seattle or Denver would actually mean something. And maybe the CCFD sick usage compared to Seattle would be high, but than you'd have to compare incident volume, and FF to incident ratio or FF per capita ratios. Do they have 3 times the FFs to do the same workload? There are a lot a questions that would have to be asked if the data was going to really mean anything of value.
I understand that the media is going to sensationalize a story to drive interest and readership, but it gets old. I don't care if people think I'm a hero or not. I never use that term, but I am willing to risk my life to saves yours. If you want to label me a hero or stupid or whatever, I don't care. It's my sense of duty that drives me, not some subjective label. That's not why I and so many of the hard-working men and women I work with do what we do. It has nothing to do with vanity or recognition. We like the excitement and challenges that our day holds and the opportunity to make a difference in our community.
As far as your second paragraph... I couldn't agree more. Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Buddy, I'll be the first to say that taking time off to be with a new baby is perfectly reasonable, but I don't think that is what most of the attention is all about. Scheduling a sick day and then scheduling an OT day ahead of time seems to be a bit different than that.
I'll disagree that comparing a FF's time off with that of an accountant or whatever is not the same. If a FF takes 3 shifts off that is over 5 days. If I take 3 shifts off that is only 3 days (and by the way I am on call 24/7, straight salary.) We all get sick for one reason or another and at some point have to account for it to our employer. In the case of people like me, we have to do it if we want to keep our jobs. In the case of Clark County FF it seems like some of them account for it to schedule OT for some friends.
We simply don't know just how much is due to being home with babies and how much is taking advantage of a contract clause.
As for why you do what you do, I can understand, hell, I feel a lot of what you do. I've helped man a fire break when I was 10 years old with my dad in Big Bear (not that something like that would be allowed today) and have fought shipboard fires when I was in the Navy. Yes, there is a thrill to that. At the same time I would like to think that any person would do whatever they could to help someone else in physical danger. Both the love of danger and instinct to help is part of being human.
Right now many people are facing hard times for one reason or another (and I have little sympathy for those who are victims of their own stupidity) and it is reasonable for them to not want to see their tax money go to fraud and waste.
firefighters isn't even on the ten most dangerous
occupation list.
all those firemen are all full of themselves.
what a joke!
boftx, the attention is about abuse. My issue is that the media is using a number that encompasses a lot of legitimate use and painting everyone as an abuser. They haven't even tried to remove all the legitimate users, why? My guess is that it's not as sensational.
My 3 days may happen over 5 days, but like yours its still only 3 shifts. My point about comparing accountants to FFs is that an accountant can go to work if they are feeling less than 100% and still get through the shift. If I go jogging on my day off and roll my ankle, I've got to consider using sick time vs. showing up to work and being unable to perform in a life and death scenario. Or if I get some bad thai food on my day off and I'm poopin like a goose, I'll probably have to use sick time. In the goose scenario, as a FF I have no way of determining if I'm going to be near a restroom at any point during my day. Responding to emergencies takes precedence over everything, and I never know where I'll be or what I'll be doing. If I was an accountant, the same illness might be inconvenient or embarrassing, but I could probably still show up for work. This is just one example. Plus, FFs are face to face with sick people every day, accountants are not.
You give people a lot of credit, but fear is crippling. That's why there are so many different phobias. You'd be surprised at the inaction of some humans when it really counts. That's why people stand around the outside of a burning house and all point when we arrive and say something like, "there's a lady in there". Fortunately we are driven and trained to act.
I'd like to reiterate that I totally support an audit, and punishment if warranted. These bad apples created this situation and like it or not we all get to bask in it. The sooner the facts are out the better. It is hard times for many and they have a right to be concerned about the spending of their taxes. But the FFs didn't cause the bad times and regardless of what we negotiate, while we can try to be part of the solution, our impact is minuscule whether positive or negative.
2 dollars, all those lists are ranking the most dangerous job based on number of fatalities per 100,000. Any good mathmagician (which I am not) can make numbers say anything. For example, in your chart FFs are #13, but on average FFs have 100 fatalities/year. If you use fatalities/year as the basis for your ranking FFs would have the 2nd most dangerous job. Fisherman would be #1 with around 140/year and the next closest would be loggers and pilots, both being in the 80s/year.
Buddy,
I grant that you raise some interesting premises about the ability to perform being a factor that I hadn't considered. I can see where at some point those would need to be taken into account. That said, based on my own experience those are not factors that would stop me from working to begin with. (I've been known to show up at work 5 days after a triple bypass for a couple of hours just to put the fear of me into a few people.) But again, this whole situation isn't about those who take days off for legitimate purposes.
As for phobias and such, I must confess that I have never seen a situation where people refused to act when it was absolutely required. I'll chalk that up to just being lucky. It's inconceivable to me not to do what is needed. (Ok, giving mouth to mouth to a few people I know would be a challenge.)
Your last paragraph is the most interesting. Regardless of what has caused our hard times, we in are in this together. I am probably just as upset, if not more so than you are (for the sake of my children) that the image of firefighters has been tarnished to such an extent as it has been by some who seem to care only about themselves. There can be no doubt that those who have engaged in this have made things much worse for those who have not. And THAT is the true shame attached to this.
What really makes me sick is that those who have done this would still tell my 10 and 12yr old daughters that they deserve respect because they are firefighters.
hey tom collins...
what say you pal???
NEVER EVER EVER VOTE FOR TOM COLLINS AGAIN!!!
hey buddy...
you know what pal...
i am having trouble reading your posts...
you know why...
all i keep seeing in the back of my mind is this...
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
do you need a college degree to become a fireman???
how many applications do you think you will get to replace any firemen who are terminated???
in this economy???
I am a democrat and even I favor privitazation of the fire department. Rotten to the core.
Remember post 9/11 when Las Vegas fire trucks flew those giant American flags and showed off their patriotism to all?
Little did local taxpayers know that they were been duped unwittingly by those flamboyant 'patriots' and 'coat tail heroes'
termination, restitution, conviction...
game, set, match
Imodium works wonders for the runs... take some and go to work....
Calling in sick when one is not really sick or not that sick to receive earned sick pay is one thing. But when you are talking about a coordinated effort, actually taking sick leave with full knowledge and with the intent that the department has to pay overtime, that's another. If that can be proven then I fully agree with most of the others who have commented that termination and prosecution are in order, to include restitution and fines.
Is it that hard to require them to submit a doctor's note when they are "sick"?
Those found guilty of fraud should be terminated, minimum. Perhaps criminal charges in some cases for those that facilitated the fraud.
Better yet, fire them all and hire new fire fighters at reasonable salary's. The going rate is obscene.
Email the D.A. to go after these people.
dainfo@ccdanv.com
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/se...
Click on the fire fighters name and see a break down of what they are costing tax payers.
Overtime often is 50 to 200% of regular time.
Obscene.
The problem of overcompensation is pervasive. Custodians making 80 or 90k?
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/se...
I don't think OT should be considered when calculating PERS benefits (and that goes for *all* public employees.) It should be aligned with the base pay rate and nothing else. That alone would help remove some of the incentive to game the system.
Beyond that, just put them on a straight salary with no OT, end of problem. There is no reason why FF can not be classified as an exempt profession, especially since they require a specialized college education and degree.
These salaries need to be investigated MUCH HARDER. The FEDS need to be involved. Obviously the state of Nevada would rather turn their backs on all this.The state is not capable of handling these situations.
even democrats are getting sick of the unions.
force them to payback their contribution to the state deficit with interest. parlay that money into less cuts elsewhere where it's needed most.
Does anyone know how long the firefighters have been practicing this shift swapping? 3 years ago it was known about and nobody cared. We then came into our economic delema. Politicians took to the soap box and condemed the firefighters for a practice that has been worked for as long as I can remember. Mr. Sissylac came out against the firefighters and condemned them for a practice that has been taking place for eons and acted like he was breaking the mafias back. Big hero Mr. S. I believed you could have worked a deal with the firefighters, but no now you want to charge them with a crime. Mr. S., How much of your salary are you giving up for the cause?
boftx, OT is not calculated into PERS benefits. A CallBack is, but there is a very narrow set of rules to classify an OT shift as a Callback. I'd be surprised if more than 5% of OT shifts were classified as Callbacks.
As far as straight salary goes, FFs earn straight salary for 56hrs/week. 16 more hours than the average employee. A lot of other workers would receive OT for those extra 16 hours. That's 832 hours a year that most other people would be paid time and a half for, but FFs get straight time for all 832 hours. As long as the Dept doesn't need me to work any extra hours there is no OT.
There's 2 main ways the County can cut down OT. Shut down services or hire more bodies. In the last year and a half, the County has shut down the mobile air unit, water tender, hazmat 24, rescue 21, heavy rescue 21, rescue 21 and truck 76. Which equates to 56 positions. That's 56 bodies to fill the planned (unstaffed/vacation) and unplanned (sick) vacancies. Until the County hires more bodies OT will continue to exist.
For everyone else that keeps posting as if the FFs and unions are to blame for all your woes, here's another article with an interesting perspective on the issue...
http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/articles...
Sisolak is the only one with the guts to go after these thieves, and for that we Thank You! As soon as they drain any money left in Nevada they will simply pick up and move to a new state to start draining them of as much money as they can steal. They need to be charged with a crime and held responsible for full restitution.
Buddy, can you honestly state that you had no idea that things like this were going on?
I read in the article the battalion chief who sent the email saying she was giving a separate list....made $325k last year.....80k in OT.
Even without the ot, that is way too much.
Our elected officials are not doing enough. If privatization isn't on the table, then these elected officials are not looking out for the taxpayers.
MG, don't kid yourself. Sisolak is no better. He just took his share in one lump sum before anyone was looking. He bought land next to the airport, then sued because they wouldn't let him build a high rise near the end of the runway. $23.5 million to be exact.
here's that story... http://www.lvrj.com/news/breaking_news/3...
unsilent, I can honestly say I had no idea that this was going on to this degree. Let me explain, I knew people at certain stations worked a lot of OT, but I had no idea that it was due to so much sick time usage. I figured sick time was part of it, but I assumed normal vacancies were the major contributor. I say I assumed, because I never really examined or tracked it. It's not my responsibility to track other employee's sick time. That's what supervisors are for. I have no ability or authority to discipline them over it so it never really concerned me enough to examine. Seeing those extreme cases was shocking and disgusting to say the least. If abuse can be proven than punishment should be administered.
As far as the BC thing.. BCs and the rest of the ranks had huge staffing shortages in '09, It caused a lot of OT which increased everyone's total compensation a lot. Keep in mind, The OT $ wasn't just given out as gifts, people put in the hours to get that extra compensation. Those larger earners were working 90+ hours/week. If they can get everybody back to working a 56hr/week you'll probably see the average drop by 30-50% or more. But after all the service cuts, hiring more is the only way left to make this happen.
I looked at the "sick calendars" published by the media, from what I can tell the individuals in that group worked in a specific rank. There were known vacancies at the time and that group attempted to schedule when they would fill those vacancies. There didn't appear to be anything related to sick time on those calendars. Definitely not fraudulent, abusive or criminal. Just people trying to schedule OT shifts in advance for known vacancies. But the media would rather spin the facts and rile up the rabble rousers.
Everything that happened in this scenario could have happened in a private business. The only difference is that the tax payers would still be paying for emergency services in one form or another, but because its a private company you would never have the ability to review their books or employee records. Privatization didn't work in Scottsdale and it definitely wouldn't work in a city with our population and incident volume. Here's a little more info on the issue... http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/article...
hey buddy...
how many people in your station made over $200,000 last year???
Birdie, none.
I still feel that the citizen of Clark County has ground for a class action sue. It clear that the firefighters behind this illegal and deceptive laundering of tax payers dollars need to be held accountable. They violated the trust, integrity and good will of every tax payer in Clark County. The violators are the one with no sick leave left. Everyone of them should be terminated, believe there are plenty of laidoff firefighters across America who would love to work in Clark County.
hey buddy...
sorry charlie...
i ain't buying what you are selling...
you see my friend...
i just can not get past this...
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
birdie, you've already proven yourself unable to evaluate this in any reasonable or logical way. The website you routinely reference isn't portraying a truthful picture to you. They twist the numbers to push their "government bad, free markets good" agenda.
70 percent of the fire department are Mormon....The county commisioners approve their salaries. At least 1/3 of the commissioners are Mormon. Mormon's have to pay church tithings at 10 percent. You make 230,000 a year. Then you pay the church 23,000 a year in tithings. Plain and simple. Plus good old Mormon Boy Harry Reid helps them out--Plus son Rory Reid...It's a nice little scam. I've known and complained about it for years. No one has done anything about it because Vegas USED to be rolling in cash.
Vegas was built by the Mormons, and they control everything from the power company to the water company.
Buddy,
I was apparently using the wrong term when I said OT should not be in PERS. If callback pay is in addition to base salary then I probably meant that as well as OT.
I think retirement benefits should be based solely upon the regular salary without any other pay being added in.
As for pure straight salary, no matter how hours are worked, I am open to adjusting what the salary should be. I won't go into the 56hr week, been there, done that for too long. But I will also admit that as a programmer and manager I'm expected to do more. All too often I have to put in 40hrs in just 2 days.
I actually do think that if a fair, straight salary could agreed to that maybe there would be enough money for a few extra bodies to be hired to help avoid the times when more than 56hrs in a week would be needed. Also, I sure that excessive use of sick time would drop, also reducing the number of times someone would be called back (if I'm using the term correctly.)
steve10, that's very interesting. Have you also considered that over 90% of the FD is male? Maybe there's a big conspiracy from the men on the department as well? Not that it matters, but did you happen to notice that the top dog, The Fire Chief is Black?
boftx, if your putting in those kinda hours, you're either working in a sweat shop or you're being well compensated for all that time and responsibility. Since you have a personal understanding of what it's like to work that many hours I'll ask you this... If you were working 90+ hours a week, what would be a fair salary? It's rhetorical really, 90+ hours is a thing of the past. When the media revisits this next year the public is going to see that there has already been a huge change to the amount of OT.
The service reductions over the last year and a half created a huge pool of extra bodies (56) to fill vacancies and as a result OT still exists, but is substantially reduced. While I think the service reductions have put the public at risk, especially in the SW quarter of the valley, I believe the reduction in hours worked is a blessing for all because working 72-90+hrs/week isn't good or safe for anyone.
hey buddy...
the numbers are the numbers pal...
and they are disgusting...
period...
end of story...
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
YO Buddy,
I was sitting behind a $70,000 Lexus LS460 in traffic today with the "Professional Firefighter" tag......
these crooks have no shame.
acting like heroes as they fleece the taxpayers and rub our noses in it with their "firefighter" tags on their $50k custom Ford F350's or their Lexus's or Escalades.
my problem is not with unions in the private sector, it is with unions for PUBLIC employees, as there is no true oversight. in the private sector, if a business cannot afford to pay union demands, the private business goes out of business, and will be replaced by another more efficient business. this is the crux of the free market system.
PUBLIC unions however, just drive up employee costs to totally ridiculous levels (think $300k per year firefighters, retiring in their late 40's with a 6-figure publicly funded annual pension). this is because corrupt and indifferent politicians are motivated to spend spend spend the public dollar to repay political favors, rather that being a true steward of the taxpayers money. simply put, they don't have a "dog in the fight" when it comes to preserving long term fiscal sanity (profitability in the private sector)
Buddy,
"Fair compensation" or "well compensated" are relative terms. I would like more than I get right now, and I've earned considerably more in the past, but given the location and the times I would call it fair. After all, I have a job and that is more than a lot of people can say right now.
Safety is a legitimate concern, as is the reduction in service. But I feel compelled to point out that though you are on duty for 56 hours a week, that does not mean you are actually engaged in "work" that whole time, and having 10 days off out of 15, including 6 days off in a row is nice. We could go round and round explaining this to everyone else but you know what I mean. I am willing to take into account that being on duty entails separation from family for 24hrs at a time if you are willing to accept my point that some of the 56hrs of on duty time is engaged in sleep and other facets of everyday life.
I think the county has been overly generous in the past to the point that they did not serve the constituents best interest. There is plenty of blame to go around for this mess.
Buddy--Notice I said 70 percent...and yes,males tend to pay themselves more in any profession they dominate...
Simple solution. Staff the open (sick call) positions with volunteers. I'm sure plenty of the current Clark Co. volunteer firefighters would love to be on a shift running calls instead of sitting around in Logandale.
SIMPLER SOLUTION.
fire them all and break up the union racket.
Some people are senseless when it comes to others livelihoods. Thank God the fools that are posting to harm another aren't holding an office, well...
It is so easy to make stupid statements when it magnifies others problems larger than our own.
Buddy;
I am just curious if you will admit that there is a silent agreement among FF's regarding OT during the three years prior to retirement?
maybevgeas, you are misinformed. There is no such agreement.
We use a computer program to volunteer for OT, which creates a list, compares that list to vacancies, and schedules somebody to fill the vacancy based on certification and last worked opportunity. Seniority is figured into the selection process, but only if there is a tie between 2 who are equally certified and who's last OT shift was on the same day. Other than a few very specialized positions, there is very little ability for anyone to control who receives an OT shift.
After all the flashy headlines, it's understandable that people would be concerned, but in the end I expect all that is going to be found is a few bad apples that made some very selfish and shameful decisions. Maybe their actions were criminal, maybe they just exploited contractual loopholes. That's for someone else to decide. Either way, I don't know anyone that isn't sickened by their behavior. There is no wide spread conspiracy or secret handshakes.
even though the firefighter "heroes" have been caught with their hand in the public till, Buddy and others of his ilk will never admit any wrongdoing.
common thieves. that's all they are.
joe, in this discussion alone I must have said it a dozen times, but apparently you need to see it again... There were some bad apples that made some very selfish and bad decisions to feed their greed. Everyone I know (the vast majority) is sickened and disgusted with the choices this small group made. WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG. But, the problem was never wide spread.
Buddy,
If it would not be a problem, can you explain exactly what the difference is between "callback" and OT?
My impression was that callback is when you are called in to cover a shift when you would otherwise be off. And I would have thought that OT would be paid for any time exceeding 56hrs in a week. Given how you have 6 days off in a row as part of a 15day cycle the 56hrs/week is an average over that period and this can lead to misunderstanding about exactly how this works. In theory you could have 4 24hr shifts in one week, which clearly exceeds 56 hours, yet you would not be paid OT for the excess hours for normally scheduled shifts.
boftx, it's confusing to me too. There are 3 shifts (a,b,c). We work 24 hour shifts. 24hr shifts spread the work load evenly, everyone has similar responsibilities/duties during their shifts vs. day/night/swing formula. In a 15 day period a given shift works 1/3 or 5 24hr periods. One week I might work 4 24hr shifts and another week I might only work 1 shift. It averages to 56hrs/week. OT/Callback are when you are called to work in addition to your 5 out of 15 shifts. OT isn't paid for time over a certain number of hrs/week. As long as we're not working more than 1/3 of the time, we don't get OT, even if you happened to work 96hrs that week. Callbacks are on short notice and are calculated into PERS. OT is not. Callbacks have multiple conditions that have to be met in order to be a Callback.
Ok, that makes sense except for the callback criteria. My next question would be when does the 15 day cycle begin? To put it another way, I know that the normal schedule appears to be 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 6 off. That can clearly be seen on the calendars. At what point in the schedule does the actual 15 day cycle begin? Does it begin at the start of the sequence as I presented it, or somewhere in the middle of that?
What you said above says to me that if you work more than 5 shifts in a 15 day period you get OT for the extra, whether or not it is classed as callback. So there are two issues that are going to annoy tax payers like me. One, the obvious abuse of sick time to increase the number of shifts worked in the cycle. Two, trying to arrange for as many as possible of those shifts or extra hours to be on a callback basis to increase the pension contribution.
Buddy,
The CCFD is ALL "bad apples". If you were not directly involved with defrauding the taxpayers, as many were, because it apparently went all the way up to battalion chief level and beyond, then you ALL HAD TO KNOW it was going on.
common thieves.
boftx, the 1 on 1 off pattern you described is accurate. I'm not sure I understand your question about the start sequence. Abuse is abuse. It doesn't fall into the intended schedule design. Hopefully the abuse has been stopped. Callbacks aren't frequent enough to be much of an issue.
joe, that's not very logical. A crime could be committed by the King of England, but that doesn't mean that all his subordinates were in on it. How exactly did I HAVE TO KNOW? If you read the emails, there were only a few names on them. Mine wasn't one of them. How exactly would I know what one person writes to another in a private email if I'm not one of the recipients? I get it if you're upset, so am I, but quit trying to make something bigger than it is. The RJ had an article today that quoted the County Manager saying they were taking action against 15-20 employees. I wish there were no bad apples, but 15-20 is better than hundreds, or the entire dept as you claim.
more lies Buddy.
Firefighters are by and large young, healthy strapping boys and girls. and yet you somehow manage to be sick several times more than even an overweight desk jockey. And despite the camaraderie that your job certainly entails, you want us to believe that it was NEVER NOTICED that so many people would often take "sick days", in conjunction with holidays and vacation time?
and that the "fill-ins" were so very often firefighters who were in the twilight of their careers (at the ripe old age of forty-something) so they could pad their retirement payment amounts??
don't p*ss down my back and tell me it's raining, "hero".
you know what's not very logical?
YOU pretending to be noble and honorable. When you run with thieves, you ARE a thief.
It was an OPEN SECRET in the CCFD, this theft of government funds.
You would have us believe that just a small handful of individuals took the time to read the contract, figured out a way to game the system, and then slyly took it apon themselves to make it happen. And you would further have us believe that NOBODY else had "even the foggiest notion" that this theft of taxpayer dollars was going on.
I'm gonna straight call BS on you Buddy.
If you can't understand how even a fit strapping person that spends 24-72hrs in a row on duty, coming face to face with sick people might possibly get sick more than a desk jockey than this conversation is hopeless. I was fit as an ox before I was hired and continue to workout daily. But thanks to the sleep deprivation and other mental and physical stress factors associated with this career, in a relatively short time on the job I've gotten high blood pressure, high cholesterol, all my hormones are out of wack, I've got sleep apnea and insomnia, and on my last physical my doctor told me my job is killing me. I'm not asking for sympathy, but there are some legitimate reasons why FFs use more sick time than desk jockeys.
If you need a refresher on how OT is filled please refer to the postings above. Seniority is the last factor.
I don't pretend and I don't use the word hero lightly and I've never used for myself. You use the word as a punchline. Who I am as a man has nothing to do with your ill conceived perceptions.
It's amazing to me that you can't understand why I wouldn't track the daily attendance status of my coworkers. On any given day there are hundreds on duty and two thirds more that aren't. Of the ones that are working on the same day as me I only might only see those at my station. If John or Jane at some other location aren't at work for whatever the reason (sick/vacation) why would I care? If it happened on a day I was off duty I would care even less. Yes, I have the ability to check, but I don't check with any frequency because frankly I don't care about the work attendance habits of others. There are Supervisors that are suppose to track that. I go to work and take care of all my responsibilities and go home. The other reason I don't track it is because I don't have anything to do with daily staffing or discipline.
Buddy,
I guess the cycle start doesn't really matter based on what you say. But I am still confused at to what constitutes "callback."
Assuming that any time worked that exceeds 5 shifts in a cycle is OT, then wouldn't callback always result in OT if you work your regularly scheduled shifts as well? Are you allowed the option of taking a shift off if you work a callback shift?
And to backtrack, that is where the issue of when the cycle starts comes into play. If the cycle starts with you first shift in the 15 day period, then any callback would be OT if you work all 5 normal shifts. But if the cycle begins at the start of your 6 day off stretch, then you could take other shifts off in that cycle and not get OT.
I know it sounds confusing, and it probably is, but it really does have an impact on what we, the taxpayers, are upset over when abuse is involved.
As for why FF might take or need more sick days that others, I can understand that you face hazards beyond what I would in an office environment (if I actually had to go to an office, I telecommute.) As for high blood pressure, etc. any job with responsibility will cause that. I've had 3 major heart attacks in the last 6 years. The over/under at work is 7 on how many I can survive.
Buddy states:
"But thanks to the sleep deprivation and other mental and physical stress factors associated with this career,"
MORE BS.
If you were NOT sleeping a minimum (large) number of hours EVERY NIGHT during your extended shifts, this type of work schedule would NOT be allowed.
Why?
Because if you firefighter "heroes" were really sleep deprived, there would be a real danger of you causing a traffic accident with your huge trucks, killing innocent people (and this is the most "important" part), and PUTTING THE COUNTY AT HUGE LEGAL/ FINANCIAL LIABILITY.
THIS is why police officers (TRUE heroes, with a much more dangerous jobs than you glorified ambulance crew) aren't ALLOWED to work the kind of overtime you clowns do.
You are getting plenty of sleep on the clock.
boftx, As far as the line staff is concerned, our cycle starts on day 1. Everyone shares the same calendar, not individual calendars based on when they work and when the don't. I've had responsibility at my jobs for the last 20 years. This career is different.
joe, keep in mind that CCFD has some of the busiest units in the entire nation. We also have one of the lowest FFs/capita ratio in the nation, and capita doesn't take account for the 40 million annual visitors. The County doesn't give a crap if I sleep or not. Normally, weekends are busier than weekdays but sometime weekdays are just as busy. On any given weekend I could run between 20-30 calls in a 24 hour period, morning time (0800-1200) is normally the slowest (fewer incidents) which just condenses the calls into the rest of the shift. If you figure door-to-door time is probably 30-45 minutes on average, how much time do you really think I'm sleeping? Next time I'm coming back from my 20th call and it 3am and I just counting the minutes till I can leave and go home to spend the next 6 hours of my off duty day trying to recover from what just happened I'll think of you and laugh. I will say this, your assessment about liability and danger are correct. The County is taking a HUGE chance with liability and they are running us into the ground. But just so you're clear, there is NO minimum sleep required. They don't shut down a unit because I'm on call #23 and haven't sleep more than an hour in 4 broken 15 minute segments. They don't monitor our sleep or lack of in any way other than a policy of no bed usage before 1900. It's so tiring that I've almost fallen asleep on my way home numerous times. I go home and spend a big portion of my day off sleeping. Think for a minute if working like this would increase sick time. Then imagine if working 72hrs like this would increase sick time usage. I would bet that if you looked at a sick usage chart from 10 years ago when call volume was lower and OT was near nonexistent it would be significantly less.
just_an_average_joe, I'm going to have to tell all the young people in the Vegas valley that they should fashion their lifestyle after you, you and your holier than thou attitude.
barrett
that is the SMARTEST thing you have ever written on this forum.
Buddy,
still not buyin what your sellin pal.
If if were as miserable as you like to portray, there is no way that this system would have lasted as many years as it has. It has stayed this way because you "heroes" are more than happy to make more than a surgeon, while basically having a "mini-vacation" after a few days of work.
If things were as bad as you portray, NONE of you would be willing to work this schedule, much less do it for years.
And we taxpayers are more than aware that over 90% of your calls are routine medical response calls, NOT rushing into a burning building to save babies.
It's sad.
You guys used to be somebody I could point out to my kids and say, "there go the REAL rescue heroes" (that was a cartoon my kids used to watch). Now when I see you drive by I shake my head, knowing how so many of you have violated the public trust.
HAVE YOU NO HONOR???
joe, we do it because we love it, we do it to make and difference and we do it because we can. Unless you've pushed yourself to those uncomfortable limits you'll really never understand what humans are capable of. There's a sick pride in being the busiest in the nation. Who cares if our calls are medical or not. There's nothing "routine" about medical calls, not for the patients and not for the responders. Apparently you haven't had a medical emergency for yourself or your children yet. That day will come and when it does you'll change your tune. If you think there's no danger in running medical calls you're wrong. I don't normally think about death during my daily duties. I've run into many a burning building and never contemplated death, that's just part of the job (the fun part). There's two times in my life I thought I might die, once was in a helicopter and once was on a medical call that went suddenly wrong.
I'm starting to realize what your looking for, so here goes... You're right. I made it all up. Best Wishes.
Buddy,
spare me the melodramatic "unless you've pushed yourself to those uncomfortable limits" BS.
I'm a former Infantryman, so I know more about being pushed to the limit than you clowns cruising around in your trucks making trips to the gym and the grocery store will ever know. As the old saying goes, "most job training teaches you how to make something, INFANTRY training teaches you WHAT YOU ARE MADE OF."
I'm sure you do love your job. The camaraderie, training, occasional excitement etc etc is what keeps many of our REAL heroes in the military. I'm sure being a firefighter has much in common.
The difference is that you guys are making FOUR TIMES what the average FAMILY earns here in Clark County (and that often counts 2 wage earners i the family). and that is more than SIX or EIGHT times what the average soldier or Marine earns for REALLY putting his life on the line.
Bottom line, other firefighters in other cities with BOTH a much more hazardous job (fighting fires in 150 year old highrises, versus modern single and 2 story stucco construction - and btw, when was the last time a CC fire"fighter" was killed in the line of duty in a fire (non-traffic)? answer: NEVER).
And these heroes in other cities do their jobs proudly for a FRACTION of what you clowns are fleecing the taxpayers for.
I'll answer for you.
YOU HAVE NO HONOR.
joe, spare me the "you have no honor", you don't know a thing about me other than I'm patient enough to discuss this with you and keep it cordial. I could easily make claims too... Joe you have webbed feet!!!!!! So did that make it so?
Thank you for your service. What the military or an average family makes is irrelevant. But since you want to include it, military contractors make well over six figures tax-free. The enlisted military should be paid more, but that's a different discussion.
You don't have access to national FF salary stats so I understand your ignorance, but I'll tell you that there are some depts that make significantly less and some that make significantly more. CCFD is right about in the middle. All the extravagant earnings are from people working the job of two or three people in OT. If I'm contracted to work 10 days a month, but I work 20 instead shouldn't I make more? Reduce the OT and take home will plummet. It actually already has.
Your definition of danger is subjective. Let me put a couple items into a tiny trash can and set it on fire. You can breath the byproducts for a few seconds and you tell me if it's dangerous. Personally, car fires scare me more than house fires. Ask a FF from Chicago what they think about fighting fires in our 2-story lightweight construction. They'll probably tell you they would never want to fight a fire when the outside ambient temp is over 100 degrees. They might also tell you that old East Coast brick and mortar construction withstands the effects of fire and heat much better than Vegas' lightweight stuff. Lightweight collapses quickly when under fire.
CCFD has had many deaths attributed to the job, but most of what kills us are those insidious little carcinogens that we operate in. There have also been deaths that happened because of fires, but I wouldn't expect you to know the CCFD history. Maybe our training and awareness has attributed to the low number of sensational deaths, maybe it's just luck. A couple years ago about 6 firefighters came nearly died during a fire when a concrete tilt-up wall collapsed. Fortunately somebody's training allowed them to recognize the situation and they all ran for their life with inches to spare. This is just one of many similar stories, but unlike Sisolak we don't have TV crews follow us around for effect, so you'd never know.