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Saturday, Sept. 11, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Steve Sisolak
Steve Smith
Sun archives
- County, firefighters’ union spar over contract negotiations (8-3-2010)
- Is a wave of county firefighter retirements on the horizon? (6-25-2010)
- Rory Reid says firefighters union resorting to ‘scare tactic’ with ad (6-15-2010)
- County considers plan to privatize airport firefighting force (6-11-2010)
- New plan to curtail Clark County firefighter overtime (6-5-2010)
- Staffing shuffle would cut county Fire Department overtime (5-20-2010)
- Las Vegas, Clark County collaborate to limit firefighter overtime (4-27-2010)
- Fire union resists move to increase its ranks, reduce overtime costs (4-16-2010)
- Has fire union support become a campaign curse? (4-15-2010)
- ‘Boot drive’ OT for individual firefighters is unknown (4-4-2010)
- Practice of on-duty firefighters raising money for charity questioned (3-31-2010)
- Fire union goal: Silence Sisolak (3-19-2010)
- Las Vegas firefighters burn up more sick time than other city employees (3-14-2010)
- Clark County firefighters profit from sick leave policy (3-7-2010)
- ‘Longevity pay’ costs millions in county (12-10-2009)
- Firefighters feeling budget backlash (5-28-2009)
- County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
For months, Commissioner Steve Sisolak has accused Clark County firefighters of “gaming” the sick-leave system as a way to bolster one another’s overtime pay.
Now, he said, he has proof.
“I don’t know what else you can call it,” Sisolak said. “They learn this stuff as young firefighters and keep doing it.”
He said his proof comes from his request this summer that county administrators check how a new Fire Department policy is working to keep down overtime costs. The policy went into effect in May and is fairly simple.
Previously, the department always kept three battalion chiefs — only nine firefighters have reached that rank — on duty at all times. When one “batt chief” called in sick, the department called in another one to fill that spot. The battalion chief called in would receive either overtime or callback pay; callback is overtime plus a contribution to his or her retirement fund, and results from someone calling in sick within 12 hours of the start of his or her shift.
On May 26, the policy changed. Now, when a battalion chief calls in sick, the department operates with two, saving overtime or callback cost of summoning a third.
At the time, the Fire Department expected this policy to save about $150,000 annually.
To see if it was working, a 12-week period was compared with the same period in 2009.
Officials found sick-leave use fell 80 percent.
The county also found that even though battalion chiefs used less sick leave, they took 24 percent more vacation and bonus-leave time. The county pays overtime when filling in for someone on vacation or using bonus leave, so overtime expenses for battalion chiefs remained at about $12,500 every two weeks.
Sisolak thinks the battalion chiefs work together to bolster one another’s overtime pay. So when sick leave didn’t work anymore, they simply used more vacation and bonus-leave time for days off. (Bonus leave is accrued at different rates if a firefighter doesn’t use as much sick leave.)
“It’s clear people were taking sick leave who were not sick,” he said. “This is the kind of thing they learn as Cub Scouts (new firefighters) and carry it on throughout Boy Scouts (senior ranking firefighters).”
If there’s any silver lining to this, Sisolak said, it’s that the county will save in the long run. “Given the huge increase in the use of vacation and bonus leave, it will be hard for them to maintain that level of use.”
Fire Chief Steve Smith was noncommittal about the 80 percent reduction in sick days.
“Since we implemented the policy, there has been a reduction in sick leave,” said Smith, who retired Friday.
Getting at sick-leave abuse has been difficult, he added, because the union contract states that someone has to be sick for more than three shifts in a row, and there has to be suspicion of abuse, before administrators can challenge him.
In their defense, Smith also noted that sick-leave use by battalion chiefs isn’t the same across the board. County salary data from fiscal year 2009, for instance, show that three battalion chiefs used more than 324 hours of sick leave, three didn’t use any, and three used fewer than 72 hours.
In that year, the nine battalion chiefs averaged total compensation, retirement and benefits of $288,785, including $25,560 in overtime and $19,421 in callback pay.
“I do think this is a few people manipulating the system, but how big that few is, we have to know and it’s got to stop,” Sisolak said. “Other guys are made to suffer for the action of a few. At the same time, they should police their own. They all know what’s going on.”
He thinks the practice happens throughout the Fire Department with lower-ranking firefighters. County administrators, however, cannot easily change sick-leave policies for firefighters because minimum staffing requirements are written into their union contract. The battalion chiefs’ contract had no minimum staffing demands.
Sisolak has said that when union contract talks are completed, he will ask for a full audit of the department’s sick-leave use.
The county’s contract with the battalion chiefs won’t be up for renewal until 2011.
Even so, the union has filed a grievance with the county asking that it reinstate the old policy to have three battalion chiefs on duty, even if someone calls in sick.
Deservedly, most things firefighters cast a cloud of distrust felt by the citizen-taxpayer. Times have changed whereby now seeing them in the grocery line as they stock up on provisions, these servants' aura of respect has diminished. As a taxpayer, one gets the feeling of been had and duped.
"Since we implemented the policy, there has been a reduction in sick leave," said Smith, who retired Friday.
__________
Well, there's the proof from the horses mouth that the system is being gamed.
steve sisolak is THE MAN!!!
keep fighting steve...
squash these community destroyers...
squash them...
the public supports you 1,000%...
remember this boys and girls...
never ever ever vote for tom collins or chris giunchigliani again...
these clowns support the community destroying firemen...
never ever ever vote for these clowns again...
never ever ever!!!
Cheifs are management, should be flat salary, and they shouldn't even be included in the hourly labor contracts. Unions were started to 'protect' the working class from management abuse. So, when do these contracts end, so we can hire firefighters for 'fair market' salary in this economy... negotiate what they deserve as a decent living, not what the union extorts?
Mr. Sisolak,
Thank you for revealing how all of these despicable, horrible, deplorable firefighters work within the system to make the most money for themselves and their families. Surely, you didn't use your position as a University Regent or any other post to make the most for yourself-say, perhaps, a run for County Commissioner. Thank you for revealing how incredibly evil all firefighters are on the 9th anniversary of 9/11. You obviously epitomize class.
Don't firemen work three on, four off? How many days vacation do they get? I mean, they should have some vacation time, but I am curious as to how much they get. It sounds like a lot.
And what in the heck is "bonus time-off".
There are hundreds of people that would happily do the fire fighter job for 50K a year stability and some retirement bennies.
I say go to war with the fire fighters, just like the air traffic controllers, fight a ten to twenty million dollar lawsuit and kick them to the curb.
IF you go into PUBLIC SERVICE this is not a get rich job it is just that SERVICE.
I come from a union law enforcement family, am a liberal democrat but I can not see how a true public servant can stand themselves by screwing the public they chose to serve.
Sissy-lak thinks... I thought he said he had proof?
KeolaGOP, If the firemen can't go to the grocery store and buy groceries to live on, are you going to go for them?
Yes they do take their whole firetruck and team so if they get a call they are ready to respond.
Would you go to office depot for your company when they need office supplies on your own time? Why would you do it on your companys' time , wouldn't that cost them more money for your work time loss?
The firemen have been working their jobs the same way for years and their haven't been any problems.
Now Sissy-lak wants to put every last one of them under a microscope. Big brother is watching.
Is he examining every last county working on how they spend their 8 hour day?
How much county money is being spent on these investigations?
If he is not running investigations on any other entity in the counties domain could this be considered singling out one entity of our county
government and thus be considered discrimination to the firemen?
I have asked many times, how much of his salary is he and the other county commissioners giving up to balance our budget?
Does this fat goose belive it is fair to not give up his salary but it is O.K. to take away from the ganders'?
He believes in magnifying other peoples problems so the populace won't be aware of his.
@KeolaGOP
your comment is right on target.
We feel duped because we were, and continue to be, duped.
Time to clean house.
Now, at last we have a politician who has the real interests of the taxpayers in mind. Steve Sisolack determined to find out just how much fraud has been committed by local firefighers and their long efforts to pad their pay and retirements. It is about time. Maybe, instead of wearing firefighting gear we will see some of these overpaid,underworked prima dona fire fighters paying big, hefty fines and wearing prison jump suits. They have ripped off the PERS retirement long enough. They have created the impression that all public employees are getting rich from their retirements. Only the polic, firefighters and school administrators are enriching themselves at the expense of the other public employess. Many of these clowns need prison time to wake them up that this is no longer going to continue. STeve Sisolack deserves a lot of credit for having the guts, balls and integrity to stand up to these clowns.
The tax payers have been getting fleeced by these so called "heros". Well done Sisolak! Keep applying the pressure to these leeches and their unions.
So vesestini, how much are you bilking the county for being the prosecuter, judge, and jury?
A huge thank you to Steve Sisolak....we all know it's not easy taking on these union machines.... but even the unions at some point are going to have to realize that we have to be in this together. Things have changed. My family and I have taken substantial cuts in pay.... and all we look for is fairness in our government employees. Not abuse.
Again...it's refreshing to see a politician who actually is doing something to change the good old boy system which seems to flourish here in Las Vegas.
An to those firefighters who are intentionally cheating the system through overtime etc... your time will come.
Chunky says:
Firefighters have a tough, dangerous and ugly job to do and Chunky appreciates that. Not many people will run inside a burning building to save a stranger.
But, anyone who knows a firefighter knows they milk the system. People will be people and they'll do people-like things whether they are firefighters or anyone else for the most part. We all know people who milk their employers in some way and then we wonder why the company can't afford to give raises or grow.
The system that allows / rewards the firefighters needs to be changed and tightened up but the union has a lot of influence and our politicians who signed these union contracts let us down.
That's what Chunky thinks!
First off if anyone has met any of these firefighters they would know they are top of the line professionals. They respond to calls promptly and when they arrive they give you the service you need.
All of you complainers who say thier salaries are too high obviously have no idea what it is they do. First off anyone who works overtime should be paid overtime wages, firefighters are no different.Yes they use sick leave, this is good considering they respond to MEDICAL calls. Please let me know how you would feel if you had a severe injury that caused a lot of bleeding and the firefighter taking care of you was sneezing or coughing on you or complained he had a fever.
Also,has anyone stopped to think why we have such great services from the fire department? Anyone ever wonder why we have thousands of firefighters from across the country apply for the few jobs in the vegas vally? Anyone wonder why you pretty much have to score a 100% on the tests just to be considered as a candidate? It's because we offer the best benefits around. We attract the best this country has to offer. I will back that anyday.
I suppose you could also hire the 18 year old kid who just took a few classes at the local community college to come take care of you as well for $10.00 an hour.
fremmasmind;
Do you think that if we cut the seven CC commissioners salary to $0, that we could save a lot of money? If they average $80,000, that is a total of $560,000, noting they have declined their promised 4% pay raises the last two years. When was the last FF concession to any pay/compensation issues?
Continue your union thuggery and attack Sisolak and anyone who disagrees with your agenda.
I applaud Mr. Sisolak's attention on any and all ways to cut the budget, especially the FF's outrageous compensation.
These firefighters are simply glutenous pigs. Plain and simple...and Steve is uncovering their abusive, cheating ways.
Way to go Steve!
Republicans, back to office you go! No more wasteful government spending!!!!
Also for the uninformed yahoos, state workers cannot negotiate terms of thier employment (wages, benefits, etc.) They may beong to a union, but all they are good for is representation during disciplinary hearings.
Cut the salary schedule by 30% or more for Clark County, Clark County School District and City of Las Vegas retroactively. Eliminate 20 and 25 year retirement for teachers and fire fighters. Stop funding health care for dependents. Get a grip on reality guys.
STOP FEEDING THE ILLEGALS. Food banks need to require citizenship or no donations. Let them get back to Latin America on their own steam. Deport the others left behind. Our economy cannot take all the social welfare, K-12, law enforcement, prosecution, and incarceration expenses. Our taxes system is COLLAPSING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF ILLEGAL invasion.
The 9 battalion chiefs cost us about $2.7 million a year plus pensions that go on forever...one good casino fire can rack that up in a day. You make the call.
Chunky says:
To clarify, Chunky is not opposed to firefighters making a good wage for the dangerous work they do. He is opposed though to them "gaming the system" is such a way that milks the system and our tax dollars.
That's what Chunky thinks after his morning coffee!
I'm with Chunky.
Here's the problem with Sissolack...
He's using the media to wage his war.
The media is verrry compliant.
Should the Commissioner be MANIPULATING the media, and by extension, the public, by feeding PARTS of the truth to us to gain sympathy for his CRUSADE?
N freaking O.
Why?
Because it's NOT BENEFICIAL to THE PROCESS.
This is a collective bargaining problem CREATED by those who are now trying to FIX IT.
"Looky! The BARN DOOR is OPEN! We gotta get them ponies back inside and CLOSE IT!"
The Firefighters did not negotiate for BOTH SIDES in the previous contract negotiations. It just looks that way!
Commissioner Sissolack, this is NOT the way to "negotiate" a contract. Don't you have ANY marbles in your bag?
The "court of public opinion" is not authorized to sign off on the next deal.
You are going to have to act like an adult.
All of you UNION BASHERS listen up;
This place is on the verge of returning to a dusty, one-horse watering hole.
We're at the BOTTOM OF EVERYTHING.
There are very few reasons for good people to stick around and help you clean this joint up, and make it LIVABLE.
I'd be careful of running off the remaining folks that CARE enough about your community that they would DIE FOR IT.
That said, OF COURSE the Firefighters are milking the system.
Is that the fault of the system or the firefighter?
BOTH.
Sisolak thinks the battalion chiefs work together to bolster one another's overtime pay.
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Regardless of the contract language, that sounds an awful lot like a conspiracy to defraud the gov't (taxpayers).
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Now Sissy-lak wants to put every last one of them under a microscope. Big brother is watching.
-----
Well, they should consider themselves lucky. Like many taxpayers, if the allegations are true, I'd like to put them in jail.
-----
"Anyone ever wonder why we have thousands of firefighters from across the country apply for the few jobs in the vegas vally [sic]? ... It's because we offer the best benefits around.
-----
Or maybe b/c Clark County firefighters are so flagrantly overpaid. Your argument supports those who say there are firefighters across the country who would gladly come here and do the job for far less than the current gamers.
To Joe Schoenmann, Sisolak, and the LV Sun. You are all disgusting to choose to run this article on 9/11. No matter what your position may be on their contract, overtime, etc., today is not the day to pull this kind of stunt. No matter where you stand on the issue, remember that today is a day that weighs heavy in the hearts of families of fire fighters as it is a horrific reminder of the dangers of their job. You all lack the compassion and moral compass to realize that today is the one day to show some respect, if not to the fire fighters, at least to all of the families of fire fighters.
Go get 'um Steve.
Thank you, Steve S, for your real public service in intelligently addressing this issue. This overpayment is something that has gone on far, far too long. I don't know how some of you can lump all public servants and unions in with this one. That's just ignorant. Those types of comments don't contribute to moving forward and improving; they just show how ignorant a lot of Las Vegans are.
Running this story on September 11th was done in poor taste.
Yes,the CCFD contract is in need of repair.
To the other men and women throughout the valley, and the nation for that matter, who ARE serving us well...ignore the article.
Classless to print this on this day.
80% reduction in sick-leave use? Maybe they didn't get flu shots last year! lol
Steve said Joe Scho, you need to write another hit piece for me.
Wake up people Steve Sisolak is anti everything, he picks a fight with everyone sooner or later.
No matter where he goes.
He was even against the new county shooting park the other day, will he try to close that down next because it lost money?
Just google Steve Sisolak $ 6.5 million lawsuit
NUT JOB!!!!!!!
This guy makes it sound like taking sick leave and vacation is an evil thing. What's wrong with using ones vacation and sick time? These are benefits that are to be used!!
Nice timing there Joe. Of all the days you picked to run this article. You show no moral or ethical conviction, just like the rag paper you work for. Nice job Sissy's boy you're a peach.
Firefighting services should be put out to bid. Give them set goals and pick the one we think can do the best job for the least amount a money.
Since the cleanup after 9/11, over 900 first responders have died from the unsafe conditions around the world trade centers. You people want to bitch about our firefighters who do their job and make their living to protect our county.
Pathetic, simply pathetic.
Sissy-lak has nothing better to do than waste his time and waste our money on these senseless investigations. Some of you ignorant, excuse me, stupid punks will bitch at anything to get a comment out. Again pathetic.
I agree with the poster who said that the illegal aliens are the worst problem going not only in our county, state, but in our nation. The millions of dollars they are bilking from our state proves why what they are doing is worse than the federal crime they are breaking. But now our government doesn't even want them picked up.
If any of you people in the future experience a fire at your place of business or home and are waiting for the firemen to arrive to SAVE your little as*, are you going to be sitting there with your petty minds thinking about how you believe the firefighters in your words are 'bilking' the system? Or, are you going to thank GOD when they arrive to save your measly little as*es?
Mr. Sissy-lak I'm sure you people will find a way to save the county money outside of damaging our first responders livlyhoods.
The best way is to get the illegals out of our county and stop them from destroying our citizens livly hoods. Hell we could even get 200,000 unemployed citizens back to work and start paying taxes again.
We would be saving CCSD millions for not having to provide foreign school books and supplies printed in Spanish.
We would be saving millions on what our medical facilities are be spending on illegals to obtain medical treatment they will never be reimbursed for.
...and your ignorant people are worried about chump change.
What a group of CHUMPS!!!!
Mr. Sissy-lak why don't you do something to help all of our citizens? Youclaim you have proof then tell us you think. What is this thinking of yours just to benefit your 'tough' image. I sorry but that dress you wear makes it very hard for you to portray a character with that kind of class.
PEOPLE; there is ONLY 1 fair and honest solution; bankruptcy,,, we are 3 times more bankrupt than Orange County (they filed) we have the same population.
BECAUSE the unions have got wh0re politicians to make the law so the politicians can say "there is nothing we can do about the union contracts" of course they wrote the laws.
Metro cops=$175K
N.Y. cops==55K but they only need 41K for "same standard of living" SO, hire them and give them a big raise by paying them 55K
EXACT same story for fire dept.
YOU MUST admit we are broke, declare bankruptcy ; fire all so there is no discrimination; IMMEDIATLY re-hire any who wish to work for the "new deal" they get paid what their bosses the taxpayers earn in private sector and NOT a penny more
Puhleease. Anyone that thinks firefighters have one of the most dangerous jobs is smoking crack. Look at OSHA's list of most injured jobs, or mortality rates associated therein, firefighters are nowhere on the top 10. Sanitation workers get injured at a higher rate.
Firefighters are overpaid, game the system, and their salaries and corrupt management and culture needs to be trimmed.
Thank you Steve! You have my support unequivocably on this issue.
Steve, does great work once again. Thank you for exposing the lies. Hopefuly really change can occur, and the city can make choices in the future. To put this out on 9/11 is perfect it just exposes Las Vegas fireman for what they are, overpaid parasites.
after the firefighters, go after UMC they are the worst abusers on call back pay, sick pay, vacation pay. my hats off to Mr. Sisolak he is doing what we have been asking Reid to do all these years.
and just curious, how many times has a firetruck been called into service while shopping for thier food. You know Albertsons has the shop for you service and it is wonderful, you just go online and put your order in and it is there ready for you to come get it. simple you firefighters are just to busy finding excuses to justify your precious time. not that I dont appreciate your services, but grow up.
Ask Sisolak how he made his money in the late eighties and into the nineties, by running a telemarketing company. Calling people and telling them they won a prize and all you had to do to get that prize was purchase these wonderful worthless pieces of ????. How many elderly went broke buying into this? Making Mr. Sisolak a rich man.
Wow, you've gone to a whole new low. Shame on you for using 9/11 to run this article.
Besides, that "proof" is a joke. You want us to believe that when sick leave declined, vacation use increased, therefor that proves sick time was being abused.... Are you serious? What a joke!
That's about as sound a case of facts as the world must end at the horizon because you can't see anything beyond it.
I am shocked that you would try to intrude on a significant day of remembrance in American history and the history of the American Fire Service with THIS! This worthless string of assumptions you've labeled as "proof".
SHAME ON YOU
Yes, the firefighters are gaming the system. It happens all over. The unions have created this scam and jam system and helped to turn these folks into pampered dishonest thieves. No I don't hate firemen. Or police. I support them. I support them as long as they're honest and loyal. Unfortunately those who use these ridiculous systems for personal gain aren't honest or loyal.
These systems have the same effect as leaving the bank front and vault doors open after closing.
It's time to change the system, the rules that allow these things to happen.
Before the name calling and whining starts, imagine if these firefighters had to live with the exact same retirement system and pay scales that our military lives with. And they are paid well (although nothing like the firefighters/police).
gbigs say...
"This story is NOT about firefighters.
Its about UNION workers skirting their contracts and using sick leave to strike.
ITS ILLEGAL, unethical at best."
I knew if I stayed around here long enough, he'd post something I agree with... whoo-hoo... I do agree!
Great work by commisioner Sisolak.
Its kind of ironic actually for this article to run today on Sept. 11. Due to the tragic events nine years ago, this is how fire depts all over the country got to be so powerful as they are today. They rode the coattails of the 'True Hero's of 9/11', the FDNY. They love to play the 'Hero Card', and it was hard to say no to whatever the unions asked for. Now with the economy in the can, forclosures still on the rise, and bankruptcy being talked about, Joe Taxpayer is now the enemy??? Joe Taxpayer is just coming back into reality!
Strong work Mr. Sisolak
Chunky says:
Great post LasVegas2009! Few people realize how penny by penny their hard earn dollars are siphoned away by government spending and special interests.
Chunky is not sure how this relates to this story in the big picture and he rarely comments on other poster's comments but he likes this one!
That's what Chunky thinks!
I don't think most people here have a problem with firefighters. They have a problem with the ones that are abusing the system. The honest firefighters, which, I think, is the majority, need to call out the dishonest ones who, in turn, need to be fired.
The firefighter's contract does need to be looked at. There are obviously some provisions that are out line.
Some of these firemen are making the same or more than emergency room doctors.
Steve is willing to TAKE ON the established union heavy fire fighters who have ripped off us tax payers for decades.
Note to the fire departments: We're coming to get our money back. Got it? Good.
Beyond this, last weekend while the lame MDA telethon played out ...we had to hear the totals the firemen collected for MDA. And to think that we paid these lazy fat heads for doing boot drives for Jerry's kids while on the clock...come on. What company would allow that? None. Pay us back, boys and girls.
Keep going Steve. I say we fire every person in fire departments, junk the union and start new.
Thank you, Steve - you are willing to go where no commissioner has ever had the guts to go before. We are behind you 100%
SHAME!! SHAME!! SHAME!!! SHAME on this so-called journalist, Sisolak, and the editors of this worthless paper for writing a front page article on this day! Would you write an article bashing the military on Veterans Day? Firefighters remember the loss of 343 of their brothers who died on this very day, and you bash them with a baseless, biased opinion piece. This shows that all these people show no respect for the firefighters all over this country. We don't have to think of firefighters as "heroes", nor do they want us to. What we should remember, and what was proven on 9/11/01 is that these men and women are willing to give up their lives to try to save those they don't even know! I've never heard of a story of firefighters running away from a saveable life, yet time and again they put their lives on the line for us and our property. And we sit here and praise Sisolak? Do you think Sisolak is going to do anything other than save himself when a plane crashes into his building? And where is the rebuttal from the union on this issue? One sentence from the chief who is on his way out the door, who himself is an appointed official? 67% of these "abusers" haven't even taken 3 days of sick leaves in a year. Yeah, sounds like abuse to me. Those who agree with this article are ignorant, uneducated opinionists themselves. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, and so should this city if we allow this baseless attack to go without a great show of disapproval. Joe Schoenmann sits behind his computer and bashes those that diligently protect our community. Pathetic!
Caroll the firefighters bootdrives take place while they are on the clock. What would you rather them do, sit in the firehouse or go out and raise money for Jerry's kids. you people are very pathetic.
I think jealousy is a very evil sin, it takes somewhat normal people and turns them into monsters.
Well last time I checked the money saved from the Las Vegas Fire Dept, 9 million, is being used for the mob museum which is now currently 6 million in the hole. Wow I guess we'll find 6 million bucks to cut from the budget next year to pay for it! I suggest education. Get rid of all the teachers, because they don't do anything. I'm being sarcastic!!!
'the nine battalion chiefs averaged total compensation, retirement and benefits of $288,785'
That is outrageous!
What a joke, I have lost all respect for Sisolak, Its one thing to make an article like this underminding the trust for public service and its another thing to post an article like this on 9/11.
The Union is there to protect the workers from the risks and hazardous conditions they work in. Not to penny pinch for every dollar they can. Clark County Firefighters base salary is spot on with any other fire department. The problem is not the union its the county's fault for not hiring more firefighters. Its cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more people. So get over it.
PGelson you show the characteristics of a parrot, Fly away and complain about something that is important.
I want you firemen to know that every time I run into you people I shake your hands. My best friend, a member of L.A. Firefighters' finest was killed on the job.
Never forget you Brian!
I would be curious to know how many of the posters standing up for the firefighters are either firefighters themselves or their lifestyle is supported by a firefighter. It would be interesting to see
~~~Changing Times~~~
2001----->Firefighters were celebrated without qualification for their heroism and sacrifice beyond the call of duty.
2010----->Commish Sisolak has proof that they 'game' the system at the expense of the public trust.
I guess Sisolak surmised Battalion Chiefs never get sick. When they do get sick, they are automatically labeled a sick leave abuser and 'gaming' the system. Hey everybody, let's all become Battalion Chiefs so we never experience another sickness.
Thank you Doctor Sisolak for finding the cure.
Everybodies lives are protected by the firefighters. Thank you gentlemen!
I don't think a lot of you are not getting it.
They made a change and added an extra battalion chief to be a floater in case a battalion chief calls in sick.
Ballalion chiefs were getting "sick" a lot before that. Before change, it caused another battalion chief who was off-duty to come in and work OT.
After the change, the newly added floating battalion chief is now filling in on standard time.
The amount of "sick" time has drastically been reduced because the game of one calling in sick and another getting OT can no longer happen.
LaDiDa nails it.
The invocation of 9/11 is remarkable. LV firefighters make far more money than NYC comrades.
Here are some facts from the transparent nevada site, showing the highest LV public employee salaries:
Robert Pittman Fire Captain $361,476.95 2009
Marvin Campbell Fire Engineer $340,919.40 2009
Gary Lindsey Fire Engineer $321,513.37 2009
Timothy Crowley Fire Battalion Chief (80) $302,736.41 2009
Elizabeth Fretwell City Manager $300,452.10 2009
Lawrence Wickliffe Fire Battalion Chief $292,748.45 2009
Bradford Jerbic City Attorney $288,505.42 2009
Gregory Gammon Director, Fire & Rescue $286,457.43 2009
William Whealan Fire Battalion Chief $278,882.33 2009
Robert Hevel Sr Fire Investigator $275,601.60 2009
James Suarez
Excellent research pooky. Unfortunately, this article is about Clark County not Las Vegas (hint: clark county commissioner). Had you furthered your research, you would also have been able to see that aside from the City Manager, City Attorney, and Fire Director (aka chief), all of those whose salaries are posted are.....RETIRED! That's why they all have a large amount under additional pay.
Just because the article is about c county doesn't mean others aren't getting the shaft.
How much OT was created for firemen to go on that TOUR of DUTY event? which department and who was behind that one!
CCFD stands for clark county financial drain!!!!!
I say go volunteer fire department. Or better yet let Jerry "THE EPLOITER" Lewis hire them to collect money and split it with them instead of keeping it for himself!!!!
I want all firefighters to read these comments and see how hated and despised they are in the Las Vegas community. The reasons are not the most important issue here. The most amazing point is that on 9/11, with an adjacent story featuring a Las Vegas firefighter crying openly at the thought of the lives lost on 9/11, people are posting here that they don't believe firefighters should be respected, that their job is not dangerous, and that they should all be fired. In a short period of time firefighters have become the enemy in this community. People are jealous of the benefits they receive even in a bad economy, and they deplore their union, while no doubt wishing they had the same kind of protection in their occupation. No, firefighters are the enemy now. And they need to be stopped before they hurt all of us by...by...by...doing better than most of us. How dare they get paid so much for whatever they do-it can't possibly be justified, right?
Yeah, lets rely on the right-leaning NPRI and their transparent nevada website, even though the data is out of date because, well, it supports our argument.
Yeah, lets get rid of all the firefighters. Then the teachers. Then the cops. That will make a better Nevada.
Sad. Very sad. Circle the wagons, firefighters, because the fact that you will save someone's life tonight won't guarantee that they will say thank you-they probably will stab you in the back.
This is a community? Really?
The tax payers have been getting fleeced by these so called "heros". Well done Sisolak!
I will definitely vote Sisolak in the next Democratic primary.
ffdaines;
Please address the unions opposition to qualifying more FF's as engineers in April of this year? They wanted to promote to save money, but the union threatened litigation? I'm sure that was in everyone's best interest?
Don't attack the private citizens who work hard and have lost jobs/homes/retirement benefits for asking union people to give up a little. Take a look at what is fair, without picking and choosing the fights that allow you to stand on hollowed ground as a reason to continue the gross overpayment.
PhillyD, I think the public is very aware that the average person makes about 50k, while a firefighter with a HS education and lets say 90 days specialized training makes about 100.
And that is why so many are upset. Stop trying to make it sound like so many people hate firefighters, you simply have too many of them making far more money than the average person paying their wages, and it doesn't wash in this economy.
Not upset, Scott. Hate. Read these posts. I'm not writing anything thats not already here. Firefighters risk their lives to save the people in this community. The people in this community hate them and want to get rid of them. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. That is the truth. They are now seen as an enemy. Even on the 9th anniversary of 9/11. Its not the terrorists that people who post here are talking about getting rid of. Its the firefighters. That is amazing and sad.
J-E-A-L-O-U-S. Just like a bunch of children. If you want to make the paycheck, get yourself in physical shape, study for the test, Pass the test , and, whaala, your a fireman. If you don't want the job, quite being a crybaby and sha-dup. 'nuff said
I guess if my salary was "only" $244k a year, I'd need to make an extra 45k in O/T and callback pay in order to make ends meet. For a lot of us, 45k is what we make in a year, and we hope to get enough (legitimate) O/T to make 50k.
We had a similar situation in our Sheriff's Dept. a few years back, The Sheriff was quietly approving overtime pay for management not entitled to it. When we got a new Sheriff, the new guy innocently questioned it to the board of supervisors (County Commission), resulting in a lawsuit against the previous Sheriff and those who received the fraudulant O/T. They spent the next 3 years undercutting the new Sheriff who ended up getting voted out in the next election. The good ol' boys didn't like their little secret getting out.
The firefighting should be put out for bid. Who do these guys think they are. These salaries are outrageous. Cut overtime in most instances. If they are unhappy these bozos can get jobs in the mining industry or work someplace else. They are replaceable.
Unions ??
Do I need to say more ? Let's use the appropriate terminology, how about
Mob
Mafia
Soviets
Corruption
Leeches
Profiteers
Well comrades that's all for now, keep paying.
Over 14% of the population of Las Vegas would do these jobs for half the pay.
Over 99% of the population of Las Vegas couldn't do these jobs for 1/4 of the pay because they are not physically fit, I bet.
By the way... don't hate the firefighters. Blame the Union Leaders handling the firefighters and the Clark County Commissioners that don't have the Kahonas to look out for the people they are supposed to be representing.
I have friends that are firefighters that would take a cut in pay to save the jobs of the ones at the bottom of the list when it comes to seniority.
But the Union Negotiators won't let them...
@ PhillyD..
Lots of laughing... you are probably right..
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
God, grant me the serenety, to accept the things I cannot change ( a firemans salary),
Courage to change the things I can( my attitude ),
and wisdom to know the difference( too many stubborn people ).
These people have milked 9/11 and the Taxpayers for long enough. They are paid easily DOUBLE what they should. Frankly it is disgusting.
Bravo to Mr. Sisolak! Where are the rest of our elected officials on these type of issues?
Lasvegas2009, how many of these taxes do you pay?
Should firefighters and paramedics and other employees of the various municipal firefighting agencies work 8 hours per day, five days per week just as police officers and other municipal employees do? The "shifts" that firefighters work seem to be unique and different from the rest of America's workforce. I've never been able to understood why firefighters have this special work schedule and I passed my GED with a "C" average. I take into consideration that if a firefighter is fighting a fire when his shift ends he should continue until the task is accomplished. But I do not understand, again, why the employee who is sitting on his duff in the firestation cannot get up and go home after eight hours and be replaced by another employee who will spend much of his shift sitting on his duff in the firestation. Perhaps a contributor to this conversation can/will explain it to me.
Its not that we want to "get rid of teachers/firefighters/cops", we just want people to stop gouging their pay that they recieve from the taxes we pay. Our society has turned into a "ME only" place. Very sad.
Could someone (anyone) please explain what 'gaming the system' by CCFD personnel have to do with the heroic deeds of the New York Fire Department people on 9/11? It seems to be two completely different subjects.
@FRM please explain to me why you think CCFD should be paid differently than other FD's operating around the country.
Thank you Rory and county commision for creating these monsters. Good job county commisioners creating this mess among others. I guess if Brian was on the commission it would be much worse or the same?
To fremmasmind
I said nothing about paying CCFD differently; my comment was about gaming the system, and how does that equate to the heroic efforts of the NYFD on and after 9/11.
@lbfrmlv-you need to go back to school. It takes less manpower to work the 24 hr shift. Here's a simple example, you have constant manning, let's say 100 personnel work a 24 hr shift, now if they are divided into 8 hr shifts that means you would need 3 times (24 divided by 8 = 3 X 100 = 300) to cover that same shift. In other words they are saving money for everyone by working a 24 hr shift. Hope that answers your question.
Now for everyone else. Most fire departments have mandatory over time call backs for constant manning. This IS NOT because the FF's want to, it is because the "elected officials" who are in charge of ratifying the contracts "believe its cheaper to pay the overtime" than hire new F.F.s. This way they have someone who is already trained and is getting benefits. Otherwise they have to pay for training, more equipment, new benefits, etc, etc, to the newly hired.
If you really really want to change things, go bitch to your elected officials to increase the budget to hire new employees to bring up the numbers to where the manning levels should be to cut back on the overtime. Remember in the commissioners eyes its cheaper to pay the overtime than hire new FF's to lower overtime pay. And yes some do milk the system.
WASHINGTON -- A landmark study proves the size of firefighting crews does have a substantial effect on the ability to protect lives and property.
The report, released by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, is the first to quantify the effects of crew sizes and arrival times on the fire service's lifesaving and firefighting operations for residential fires. Until now, little scientific data has been available.
Four-person firefighting crews were able to complete 22 essential firefighting and rescue tasks in a typical residential structure 30 percent faster than two-person crews and 25 percent faster than three-person crews, according to the study.
The results of the study will allow the fire service to prove to community officials the impacts of reduced staffing with solid, scientific data for the first time.
"The results from this rigorous scientific study on the most common and deadly fires in the country -- those in single-family residences -- provide quantitative data to fire chiefs and public officials responsible for determining safe staffing levels, station locations and appropriate funding for community and firefighter safety," said NIST's Jason Averill, one of the study's principal investigators.
The four-person crews were able to deliver water to a similar-sized fire 15 percent faster than the two-person crews and 6 percent faster than three-person crews.
Broad coalition
Performed by a broad coalition in the scientific, firefighting and public-safety communities, more than 60 controlled fire experiments were conducted in the study to determine the relative effects of crew size, the arrival time of the first fire crews, and the "stagger" or spacing between the arrivals of successive waves of firefighting apparatus.
The stagger time simulates the typically later arrival of crews from more distant stations as compared to crews from more nearby firehouses.
WASHINGTON -- A landmark study proves the size of firefighting crews does have a substantial effect on the ability to protect lives and property.
The report, released by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, is the first to quantify the effects of crew sizes and arrival times on the fire service's lifesaving and firefighting operations for residential fires. Until now, little scientific data has been available.
Four-person firefighting crews were able to complete 22 essential firefighting and rescue tasks in a typical residential structure 30 percent faster than two-person crews and 25 percent faster than three-person crews, according to the study.
The results of the study will allow the fire service to prove to community officials the impacts of reduced staffing with solid, scientific data for the first time.
"The results from this rigorous scientific study on the most common and deadly fires in the country -- those in single-family residences -- provide quantitative data to fire chiefs and public officials responsible for determining safe staffing levels, station locations and appropriate funding for community and firefighter safety," said NIST's Jason Averill, one of the study's principal investigators.
The four-person crews were able to deliver water to a similar-sized fire 15 percent faster than the two-person crews and 6 percent faster than three-person crews.
Broad coalition
Performed by a broad coalition in the scientific, firefighting and public-safety communities, more than 60 controlled fire experiments were conducted in the study to determine the relative effects of crew size, the arrival time of the first fire crews, and the "stagger" or spacing between the arrivals of successive waves of firefighting apparatus.
The stagger time simulates the typically later arrival of crews from more distant stations as compared to crews from more nearby firehouses.
CONT: "Our experiments directly address two primary objectives of the fire service: extinguishing the fire and rescuing occupants," Lori Moore-Merrell, of the IAFF and a principal investigator on the study, said.
The study is extremely significant because academics, science and fire service providers were all brought to the table to conduct the research, she added.
In addition, the results were collated and delivered by independent statisticians to offer an unbiased perspective on the impacts different staffing levels have. The study provides the science to be able to say to local governments that reducing firefighting staffing levels does have major impacts, according to Moore-Merrell.
Researchers also performed simulations using NIST's Fire Dynamic Simulator to examine how the interior conditions change for trapped occupants and the firefighters if the fire develops more slowly or more rapidly than observed in the actual experiments. The fire modeling simulations demonstrated that two-person, late-arriving crews can face a fire that is twice the intensity of the fire faced by five-person, early arriving crews.
It also demonstrated that trapped occupants receive less exposure to toxic combustion products -- such as carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide -- if the firefighters arrive earlier and involve three or more persons per crew.
Sorry about the multiple postings
HEY fremmasmind you seem to protect the ff, I wonder why. They cost an average of 175K min per fire fighter AND REMEMBER they work 10 days a month, sit around 24 hr. sleep, eat filet, lobster, go to the gym, and 90% of their calls are crap, WOW life is tuff for these boys. AFTER you pay their retirement the total will run around $2,000.00 per day. god I feel bad for these boys
And you know fire figthers are at such terrible danger, when was the last Vegas ff killed? Can't remember, ,,, me either. Now if you want to look up deaths of store clerks, farmers, ranchers, fishermen, lumber jacks, cab drivers, construction workers, etc. etc. OMG you can find pages full.
Here is a funny fact for you. Wanna know how dangerous ff jobs are, WELL they are not in the top 10 and No. 1 is OVER 10Xs as dangerous and number 10. WOW Number 1 make 23K per year and our ff make 175K plus they get to retire at around 100K and no 1,,, well they get no retirement. GOD, I feel so bad for these pampered brats.
ohcalcutagirl I would like to address that your ignorance is getting so bliss it is reaching real close to the edge of stupidity.
It is truly amazing that some people can talk, talk, talk and get nothing said.
@ohcalcutagirl
I agree with fremmasmind on your ignorance. There are many firefighters who die in the line of duty, but many more die after they retire due to on the job related cancer and heart attacks. Believe it or not it is a very stressful job. When your sleeping and wake up suddenly to answer a call during the night, your heart goes from a resting beat to a very high beat. This takes a toll on you after years. Proven fact. Also there are a lot of on the job injuries. EX: A friend my mine fell thru the floor while battling a house fire, he suffered career ending back injury and he still has debilitating pain. Oh by the way why don't you tell these firefighters families there profession is not that dangerous.
Line-Of-Duty Deaths
Jonathan Lewis "Johnny" Littleton - 09/10/2010 - [Pine Level, North Carolina] John Kelly - 09/06/2010 - [Tarrytown, New York] Douglas Farrington - 08/24/2010 - [Delta, Pennsylvania]
to fremmasmind:
Your comments indicate that you are either a CCFD employee or are supported by one. If you are an employee of the CCFD, how much have you made in overtime/callback this year and how much of your generous sick time/vacation have you used to benefit your fellow CCFS employees?
It's amazing that some poeple can talk and say nothing. Please respond.
Alright, let's get beyond the belittling/glorifying of firefighters. Some get hurt --even die-- from the job. Most do not. Other professions have their issues, too. But the $175 K per year on the taxpayer's coin is unconscionable. If we fired all of them tomorrow, and told new recruits, "the job comes with some overtime; overall, you're going to make, say, $90K a year," we'd still get more applications then there are openings. That's a FACT.
That was an extreme hypothetical, just to make a point. I'm sure the majority of our firefighters are decent citizens and conscientious public servants when that alarm rings and they go out on a call. But the "gaming" of the system has to go. Everyone else is sacrificing / suffering during these hard times. The $175K compensation cannot stand.
On another point, those of you criticizing the Sun for posting this story yesterday, on 9/11, spare us the ginned up indignation. The tragedy suffered by firefighters in New York does not excuse any abuse of the system and the taxpayers, out here. WhenEVER a news outlet has a story, NEVER, EVER should they sit on it or suppress it (temporarily, whatever). So don't lobby for such. Let the sun shine. The news isn't always pretty; yesterday's timing was unfortunate, especially for anyone who might have actually known someone who died or was hurt back in NYC on 9/11. But no censorship, please.
OK, one more time. If you don't like the firefighters getting all that overtime, don't bitch at them. Bitch to your commissioners to hire more firefighters. More FF's on duty equals less overtime. Now I admit some will take advantage of the overtime, but I think most don't. When you have to have, lets say 350 authorized positions, but only 300 actual bodies to fill those positions, you're short staffed by 50. This could be caused by not hiring to fill those that retired and new station openings. Then you add in sick days, injury time off, etc and this compounds the problem. So since you have to have 350 you have to have overtime (sometimes forced) to fill those positions. It's like when your work calls you in on your day off cause they need you. But remember the fire dept. needs constant manning every day. I'm tired of this Sislack character, if he's so against the overtime policy, ask him & the other commissioners to hire more FF's. Bet they won't cause its still cheaper to pay the overtime than
hire new FF's. The commissioners set the dept's budget and number of new hires, so have them make the changes. Also the union can be be more flexible.
Vote for Sisolak. Vote for more private EMTs. Reduce the number of firemen needed, by actually overhauling the contract. Penalize any fireman abusing overtime, and just eliminate overtime by overhauling the contract. This is just good business sense for the county, city, Henderson, and Northtown. We have good firemen, not good people who sign off on public sector union contracts.
Just get rid of OT and Sick Pay, problem solved. They claim their job is unique, well then it calls for a unique pay arrangement. We are told working 12 is best, well then that is your normal shift, 12 hours straight time or a fixed salary, end of discussion. You have already admitted abuse takes place, so why are we debating any of this baloney?
You have to love all the justifications by the FF shills on this thread. Come on do you really think anybody is buying it? I realize this is all you have, but please.
Lots of Laughing...
Clark County Firefighters get paid more then the guys on the front lines of Afghanistan / Iraq..
http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_...
The Clark County Fire Department Volunteer Coordinator makes almost twice as much then General Petraeus!! LOL!
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
Fire Captains are making more then our Top Military Generals!!
Don't hate the firefighters/police/teachers... hate the inept Clark Country Commissioners who allowed the salaries to happen in the first place.
Next time you vote... think who you are voting for. A Dem. that uses / pays off unions for votes or somebody who thinks about the good of all?
God Help Us all if Rory Reid becomes Governor. We'll turn into another California/Illinois.
Big Government and Broke whining for more taxpayer dollars.
I hope everyone is letting their representatives know how they feel.
Do not just post on this board, make your voice heard.
These people work for us, not the other way around.
No more millionaire public servants.
Firephoto, have you ever seen and heard so much whining in your life. People always find it easier to blame indivduals who have made something of their lives and then want to strip them of their advancements solely because they don't have the drive to better themselves, so kick the one who has achieved.
It seems we are having a problem. Jealousy is causing americans to feel like they want to make their fellow citizens financially worse than they are. To make some of these sick Americans happy would be to strip other americans of their wages and incomes and jobs.
Sad days in the United States.
Who are any of you people feel you have the right to judge anybody outside of yourselves?
@ Fremma,
Since you don't seem to get it, these are not private companies, they are public servants that are paid by the taxpayer.
That means we have every right to know what they make, and decide if it is out of line or not.
The only people defending it are the ff or those supported by ff.
Well unsilent,I guess you wouldn't fight for your job, pay scale, retirement...etc.
PRIVATIZE THE FIRE DEPARTMENTS
Remember folks, "Heroes" don't come cheap.
There is simply no job on earth that equals more pay for less work than that of Nevada Firefighter.
Getting paid over $150,000 a year to sleep, watch DVDs and work out must be rough on our local "heroes."
But hey they deserve every penny right? They're putting their lives on the line right? Wrong. Firefighter is one of the least dangerous jobs in America, far safer than construction worker, policeman, or even auto mechanic.
Quit believing the "hero" myth - firemen in Nevada are lazy overpaid pigs whose rape of the taxpayer is downright obscene.
firephoto:
Thanks for pointing out this landmark study.
http://www.nist.gov/bfrl/fire_research/u...
It is a well thought out study and makes some good points. It also assumes that all FD's perform the same ESSENTIAL tasks at each fire and that is not exactly true.
Let's look at the two most important milestone tasks from NIST study.
4 Person Crew
Time to Breach Door from ignition 7:46(mins/secs)
Time to Water on Fire from ignition 8:41
3 Person Crew
Time to Breach Door from ignition 7:48(mins/secs)
Time to Water on Fire from ignition 8:54
You know that 13 seconds doesn't mean life or death for almost 100% of the situations that FDs or EMS deal with. And if you remember from Rookie School that with today's typical home furnishings, flashover occurs anywhere between 3 to 7 mins. Unfortunately, FD won't even be there yet. With/Without fire clothes, which only FFs have, no one in the structure will generally still be alive or in a survivable state.
Only fire sprinklers have a proven track record of responding quick enough to regularly and reliably save lives. True enough FDs get lucky once in awhile and we all thank God for those willing to make that attempt. In these cases though it is rare that everything works out. The victim generally succumbs to their injuries from the fire/smoke or leads a life of solitude due to being severely disfigured. The reality is that FDs have become very expensive and no one wants to change the way things have ALWAYS been. Unfortunately, that time is here.
PS - If you'd like, I can dig up one of my posts to a FF article months ago about the financial benefit to the citizenry on the 3-8 hour shifts and how even with OT it is more cost effective.
hey, you could always go down to laughlin and get paid $96k a year to be a flagger. that is one tough job.
First the firefighters ... now the Boy Scouts! And on September 11th! Sisolak and The Sun is a joke. I guess if he keeps the heat on all the good guys, we won't look at his shady past and county payouts! Stop disgracing the people that protect and serve this country and start looking at the commission (including Sisolak) that approves these contracts and benefits. Politicians and Sisolak.. shame on you!