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High-speed rail competition heats up with new funding
Associated Press File
Plans for a maglev train like the one in Japan would give travelers between Las Vegas and Southern California another alternative to Interstate 15. The plan is competing with DesertXpress, which is further along in the planning process.
Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2009 | 5:35 p.m.
Sun Archives
- Beyond Victorville: Coloradans covet high-speed rail, too (9-14-2009)
- DesertXpress train aiming for March construction start (9-1-2009)
- Forum to address DesertXpress train proposal (6-28-2009)
- High-speed train plan gets notice in D.C. (6-24-2009)
- Public or private, rail line will need major subsidies from government (6-14-2009)
- Maglev or DesertXPress, this could be your new ride (6-14-2009)
- Trade-offs between technologies include speed, cost (6-14-2009)
- Maglev train to press on without Reid (6-10-2009)
- Reid sides with Desert Xpress fast train option (6-9-2009)
- State sends no representative to talk on high-speed trains (6-5-2009)
- Obama outlines vision for high-speed rail network (4-16-2009)
- 8 states seek stimulus money for high-speed rail (4-15-2009)
- No waste in rail dream (3-5-2009)
- Economic crisis an opportunity to be greener (3-1-2009)
- Vegas, Midwest seek the $8 billion for fast trains (2-23-2009)
- Calif. bond would launch bullet train project (9-26-2008)
WASHINGTON - The competition between two proposed high-speed trains running from Las Vegas to Southern California ignited anew today after federal authorities announced $45 million for the maglev project that had lost key political support earlier this year.
Gov. Jim Gibbons backs the magnetic levitation rail project that critics say relies on a technology that is unproven in this country and too costly. He announced the federal planning funds.
The long-envisioned maglev train between Las Vegas and Anaheim suffered a setback this year when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid announced he was pulling his support. Reid now prefers the proposed DesertXpress train -- a much cheaper alternative.
DesertXpress is backed by Nevada political guru SigRogich, a Reid supporter, and is much further along in the planning process with hopes of breaking ground on construction next year. But it too has shortcomings: Critics are skeptical of the route between Las Vegas and the California high-desert city of Victorville, some 80 miles from Los Angeles.
DesertXpress says it is a private venture that would only rely on federal government loans -- though experts say few private train lines are profitable.
Maglev would rely more heavily on federal funds, and is seeking part of the $8 billion for high-speed rail Reid helped to secure in the econmic recovery act.
Nevada's Republican Sen. John Ensign has long preferred DesertXpress.
With Gibbons behind maglev the split among Nevada's top elected officials could further complicate either project's prospects.
Nevertheless the governor welcomed the federal funds. “This project will put Nevadans to work and will help bring our transportation infrastructure into the 21st century,” Gibbons said.
Discussion: 36 comments so far…
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Locally owned and independent for more than 50 years.
How truely Vegas style.
The city will be out of water in about 2 years and the answer is to build a mag-lev to Dizzyland....
McCarran traffic is down 17 months in a row and the answer is to build a mag-lev....
The only bright spot is that Reid, Goober, and Enstench will all be gone soon. As well as the under-the-table money they are skimming off this.
How truely, truely Vegas....
How can this be? I thought harry had some power in Washington? Maybe Queen Pelosi overruled him again? Maybe the Democrats have already written him off as a lost cause?
Does anyone produce anything worthwhile in this country anymore?
Amtrak can't stay in the black without the governments help i guess this trains next.
This is the FIRST smart thing Gibbon's has done.
And, Gibbon's has Rogich to thank for putting him into office.
This shows Gibbons is NOT a Rogich lap dog. The position of lap dog is now being played by "man whore" John Ensign and "let's switch support to DesertXpress simply because Rogich can raise me campaign contributions" Harry Reid.
The DesertXpress is a failed plan with out of date technology. But it is already making money for some. Who? Rogich.
Governor Jim has been on the ball with this venture. He might be relected.
Caroll,
I agree. Gibbons is standing up to Rogich and Reid and supporting the project that makes sense. He's got my support. More smart moves like this and he just might get re-elected.
I agree with afveteran & Michelle_in_Vegas
that the Maglev seems to be the better project. I am also glad that the gov sees this also.
Maglev is a wildly unproven technology in a desert environment, plust its costs roughly three times as much as regular high speed rail. Regular high speed rail is also easier to upgrade. The TGV in France can go around 200 MPH on a average business day, but they have gotten it up to speeds around 350 MPH when testing new technologies or attempting records.
Yeah, the Maglev is cool, but you want a system that can link in with other nation wide systems instead of forcing people to jump trains when it might not be necessary.
You guys supporting Jim Gibbons do realize he is doing this just for the sake of looking like your hero right? I mean the Maglev would cost 14 billion compared to 5 billion with regular rail. It is the first of its kind in America and that basically guarantees cost overruns. The DesertXpress plan would understandably cost less due to it being built using existing and very proven technology.
Personally I think both groups have rather crummy plans. High speed rail only works by connecting inner cities with other inner cities. Connecting Vegas with Victorville (like the DesertXpress) or Anaheim (Maglev) would be like building a bridge that comes just short of the otehr side. Yeah its a nice observation deck, but it's not good transit policy.
On another note, weren't people calling the Maglev Reid's "pet project"? And now you are rallying behind Gibbons for supporting the vastly more expensive and risky plan that Reid decided to drop? What you are basically saying is this: "we hate Reid so much that we will completely flip our ideologies to support someone who isn't even running for the same office and is in fact supporting a even more expensive plan".
What. The. Blank.
Whatever technology is used, if you are going to build a high speed train line, it has to connect Los Angeles, NOT Victorville, to Vegas.
Vegas will never be out of water, we will be importing it and using ocean water though. The train idea is a good one, maglev harry reid whom though I'm a dem is not my fav guy. The gov seems to only know how to cut. Personally I think his salary along with those of our legislators should be cut in proportion to any cuts in the future or those in the past.
The Trains will provide a viable option for tourists and people commuting for work. That would be a huge difference between am track and this one. Amtrack gets used mainly by commuters and the competition is very cheap airlines that go faster (as fast as the high speed train) than am track could with a strong wind.
I would be looking at the desert xpress and where it will dump people off and who owns or is a part of what is being built near by. That is a better question, land - what's being built? Condos- stores etc. West of the 15
Krases.. please don't give wrong numbers ($). if you had attended the presentation by Desert Xpress last month at UNLV, (according to deset Express) you can see that the cost of construction till VICTORVILLE is 9 billion dollars, where as construction of
Maglev to Anaheim is around 11 billion dollars.
None of the studies done so far proved that MAGLEV is not suitable for desert enviroment. Please do not spread such wrong statements. I agree that you might not support MAGLEV or Desert Xpress, but try to appreciate governor's efforts in this case. Everyone agrees that there should be an altenative travel mode of transportation between Las Vegas and Southern California.
If you need to know more information on the MAGLEV technology, UNLV is hosting a seminar on the MAGLEV technology on 28th of September from 6 PM to 8 PM. Plan to attend to know the real side of maglev.
And for those folks, who say that this is a gamble, never worked anywhere else in the world, my only suggestion is, be PROUD to be a part of such efforts.. I am confident that this will be technology that US might show the world how to do it.. BE POSITIVE..
Thanks.
People are saying the idiot Desert X-Press has to stop at Victorville, because it doesn't have the cajones for the Cajon Pass. I've never heard anyone refute this, either. If so, tunneling through miles and miles of mountain to complete a Vegas to L.A. link, would probably make it MORE expensive than the Maglev. Rogich and Co. have some venal angle regarding the Xpress -you know it, and I know it. So fugettabouttit!
This country has to start somewhere with Maglev technology. Might as well make it Las Vegas. Regardless of what you think about Jim Gibbons, he's on the right side here. Count me in as another supporting him on this. ALL ABOARD!!!
MagLev should be the way to go. Why dump money into older technology. I say dump our senator's plan and go with the future in transportation. New line of thinking and a new Senator that Nevada can be proud of. Tarkainian 2012!
My bad 2010!
DesertSun,
"Why dump money into older technology."
EXACTLY.
We can beat the Japanese, the French, the Germans, and the Chinese, if we want to. This is cutting edge technology, where the gold ol' USA can still put on a show. If we do this right, just like in aerospace, we can have then entire world coming to us to buy maglev trains, making purchases by the billions.
Yeah right, I want the federal government to use my tax money for a maglev train between LA and Vegas.
How about using that same money for renewable energy projects, or something that is actually beneficial?
The world must be coming to an end because the Luv Guv is actually on the correct side of an issue! Way to go Gov!
vegas will never run out of water = vegas is recession-proof.
Vegas will never be out of water, we will be importing it and using ocean water though.
LOLOL You can't be serious. That's never gonna happen thanks to teh tree huggers in Cali. It would be such a great solution. Build desalinzation plants in Cali - sell the water to NV, AZ, UT and CO. It would help CA with their money problems and help the rest of the desert SW states. unofortunately, it'll never happen.
Victorville? There's a High spot on anyone's vacation plans. Take it to ANaheim or even Irvine. Irvine has a transportation centert already right by the old Marine Base. Parking and all is right there. What fool would drive to Victorville (2hrs) from Anaheim on a Friday night,. when in another 2 hrs he could be in Vegas WITH his own car? It needs to be in Orange County for it to work..AS for Technology? Let the Jap's build it if you think we can't - they build everything else! But the DesertXpress is a lost cause and OLD technology. If you build it - we could say "Hey look at our high speed train that we resurrected from 1950 !!
High speed rail is great if you want to subsidize the transportation for wealthy folks and projects for big wealthy corporations.
Its a bad idea if you want to use it to relieve congestion and help the enviornment.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_...
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_...
Just like Harry! Spend tax dollars on HIS personal interests!
Are you gonna vote for that numb nuts in 2010?
DTJ is right on the money. Rogich is a mudslinging scumbag. He is generally termed as a "political consultant" which is code for "opportunistic money-grubber, SQUARED".
Better the maglev than the "train to nowhere"!
Also, from another article, isn't maglev a suitable high power transmission line? And supposedly we're short on transmission lines to transfer all the solar power we'll supposedly generate here in the desert over to SoCal -- so we seem to have a solution here. (Now if we could only figure out how to set up a desalination plant on the CA coast, use NV solar power to run it, and pipe the water back here...)
And it should help some with congestion. I wouldn't mind a few less CA plates on the road.
NLV-Indep 13,
You're onto something about sending power developed in Nevada, to California, via the Maglev infrastructure. I don't know anything about this, but if any of you other folks could add to this (or detract, if the technology won't fly), it would be greatly appreciated.
As for sending desalinated water from Cal. to here -I have a better idea. (And I can't believe nobody has ever thought of this, but heck, I'll take credit for it if I'm actually the first!)
Here's what we do: we send power down to California, they desalinize it, AND USE IT THERE. In return, we keep their allotment of the water we currently send them from Lake Mead and the Colorado River. WIN-WIN.
HEY, look at our own monorail project, high tech, we were supposed to go from McCarran to downtown. But because of better thinking they decided to leave the airport out. Now they want to build a hi-speed rail that starts in Victorville and leave the L.A. basin out?
Commoncents,
We've been talking about that, for some time. The "they" you mention looks to be the same gang that now wants the Desert Xpress to Victorville. So the key is, keep Rogich and Co. as far away from the decision-making as possible.
The only way this rail system would make money would be to route it to Tijuana.
Tijuana? No thanks, we don't any more stinkin' illegal aliens.
What everyone here is failing to realize is that the lunatic environmentalists in California will never allow their lands to be disturbed. Politicians now just that yet they continue to flap their lips lying to their constituents to keep the money flowing in their greedy pocketbooks. These lunatics waste more money preventing growth than what it cost to actually build the projects. As far as Harry goes, he just another freak and a disgrace to mankind.
To Krases:
I don't know what "wildly" unproven means. Either something is proven or it is unproven. It's like on or off. There's no "wildly" on or off, nor "wildly" proven or unproven. Having said that, I don't know of any high speed rail system anywhere on this planet that runs in a desert environment like the LA-Las Vegas line would. The Spanish lines are the closest it gets to those conditions. So high speed steel wheel on steel rail is as unproven in practice as any maglev system for desert conditions. However, plain rail and later on tarmac highways were also untested for the same conditions. How did they get put in and work? Because engineers knew what they needed to do to simulate and test for those conditions so things would work once put in. The same goes for steel on steel or for maglev, no difference either way.
You are right that maglev would cost much more than steel on steel. This is true for the only system that is currently ready and actually being proposed, the German Transrapid technology (sorry DTJ, this *is* the German technology: the US doesn't have one that is ready yet). (I would add that the picture in this article is misleading: the Japanese technology illustrated is fundamentally different from the Transrapid maglev, which is being used on the Shanghai airport line.) As for the speeds they can reach, the 350 mi/h for the French TGV was a one-off demonstration speed record that needed special wheel, motor and track modifications for all the extra stresses it imposed, and the engineers and representatives were clear normal operating speeds like this are not likely at any time. Even the Transrapid can in principle reach this speed with no special effort.
To DTJ:
You are right in principle that maglev is capable of greater grades at full speeds without straining the motive system unlike steel on steel, but the question is how much it would cost to build the guideway over the pass at that maximum grade, compared to tunnelling (possibly for a shorter distance). (A note on "cajones": this means drawers, like you put your socks in. If you mean masculinity, the word is "cojones".)
Overall, the German Transrapid maglev that would be used is significantly more expensive than steel wheel on rail systems for an equivalent route. Also, there are legitimate concerns about the seismic safety of this technology because the vehicles are kept at a more or less constant distance of a mere centimeter from the underside of the guideway, at a time scale of milliseconds, by constant computer-calculated adjustments in the magnetism-inducing electric current. There are legitimate questions about how well this system would stand up agains sudden seismic shocks, unlike the Japanese system illustrated in the article, which has a gap of around six inches between vehicle and guideway. This in shaky Japan, is one thing they *don't* forget to think about!
Yes, Transrapid maglev is "futuristic", but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for the future. Like others here have said, it is incompatible with earlier rail routes. My personal take on rail versus maglev is that for the moment, rail is the best way to go, and later on, a compatible maglev system once it is developed. I say this because the inventors of the technology the Japanese maglev is based on, Powell and Danby (currently associated with New York Polytechnic) are working on a system that improves on both the German and Japanese system, and could actually pay its own way because it is designed as the only maglev system so far that can carry heavy freight as a matter of course. They calculate that freight fees would help recoup capital costs in way under a decade, meaning no need for the kinds of capital subsidies necessary for rail (and airports and highways). Their second generation maglev is earthquake safe like the Japanese system, but their newer innovations mean guideway panels can be laid along the outsides of traditional (not even high speed) rail tracks so they are compatible with traditional rail traffic (or any high speed rail tracks that may be built) and don't require special infrastructure except, like HSR, where they are going to be travelling at full (300 mi/h+) speeds.
I'd say go for plain HSR now and wait till there is an *appropriate* maglev technology ready, not the current, early generation Transrapid.
MD, I am seeing many different numbers being thrown around ranging from 10 billion (from the Maglev company)for the Maglev to 40 billion (from DesertXpress). I think I have been a victim of mis-information.
The only way I can be happy with a decision however is for whichever system is chosen to go from inner city to inner city.
$45 Million will not build one inch of the maglev train. This money will be eaten up by consultants, various studies, and of course political cronies. The projected cost of $11 Billion is going to be way short of the the actual costs, too. The technology alone will run into the billions. The cost for rights-of-way in Nevada and California will run into more billions. The lawsuits brought by people being forced out by eminent-domain will add another billion or two. Naturally, everyone who works on the construction itself will be fully documented, legal workers so labor costs will be billions. The real killer of this project should be, "When they build it, no one will come." Some of the original comments in the previous go-around were accurate: The Fantasyland Express. The maglev if ever build, will be a novelty that a limited number of people may ride, once, to say they did it. Bring back real train passenger service to Las Vegas.
There in only one application of the Maglev train technology in the world. It is a short 19-mile demonstration segment at Shanghai's Pudong Airport in China. Rather than extend this demonstration project, China chose to terminate utilization of Maglev and implement its own state of the art high speed rail network similar to what is being used in Europe and other parts of Asia. Maglev is built on an elevated structure even when running "at-grade". No matter the height of the structure, it requires extraordinarily tight tolerances and structural stiffness, which translate into very short structural spans, very stiff structural decking and columns, and therefore, incredibly high costs. The world's only Maglev technology supplier (based in Germany) has disbanded its development program completely. Germany has dropped all Maglev projects due to uncompetitive high costs in favor of more efficient high speed rail. Operations and maintenance costs of Maglev are virtually unknown due to lack of manufacturing, servicing, etc. There are no existing US safety standards for Maglev technology. Therefore, the certification process for use in the US would take many years. Recent independent cost estimates for Maglev construction in this country, referenced in the Government Accountability Office (GAO) study, were performed by the Southern California Association of Governments, Maryland MTA (for the proposed Baltimore to Washington DC maglev), and the designated public transportation planning agency for the San Diego Association of Governments, found that the cost of maglev construction would likely range of $99 million to $199 million per mile. Given the above information, the cost for the proposed 260 mile line from Las Vegas to Anaheim would be between $26 billion and $52 billion. Such a cost would make the CA/NV Maglev project the most expensive transportation infrastructure project in the nation's history -- more than twice the size of Boston's "Big Dig".
The DesertXpress line is planned and designed to be extended as rapidly as possible approximately 50 miles to interface with the inter-modal facility planned in Palmdale on the voter-approved California High Speed Rail Project. Since the system will use non-proprietary, high quality, standard gauge steel rail technology, the lowest possible cost can be realized for expansions. The system also is designed to facilitate extensions to Ontario and other destinations in the Los Angeles/Orange County Basin, as and when funding becomes available. In Nevada, the system can be readily extended to other destinations as well, such as Phoenix and Salt Lake City, and can easily serve the proposed Ivanpah Valley Airport, which would locate its terminal complex immediately adjacent to the DesertXpress tracks.