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Tuesday, Sept. 1, 2009 | 12:21 a.m.
Sun Archives
- Forum to address DesertXpress train proposal (6-28-2009)
- High-speed train plan gets notice in D.C. (6-24-2009)
- Public or private, rail line will need major subsidies from government (6-14-2009)
- Maglev or DesertXPress, this could be your new ride (6-14-2009)
- Trade-offs between technologies include speed, cost (6-14-2009)
- Maglev train to press on without Reid (6-10-2009)
- Reid sides with Desert Xpress fast train option (6-9-2009)
- State sends no representative to talk on high-speed trains (6-5-2009)
- Obama outlines vision for high-speed rail network (4-16-2009)
- 8 states seek stimulus money for high-speed rail (4-15-2009)
- No waste in rail dream (3-5-2009)
- Economic crisis an opportunity to be greener (3-1-2009)
- Vegas, Midwest seek the $8 billion for fast trains (2-23-2009)
- Calif. bond would launch bullet train project (9-26-2008)
Sun Coverage
The leader of the effort to build the proposed DesertXpress high-speed train between Las Vegas and Southern California said his company has launched a worldwide search for vendors and suppliers so that construction on the $4 billion project could begin by the end of March.
Speaking at a forum at UNLV sponsored by the Transportation Research Center and the Ward 5 Chamber of Commerce, Tom Stone, president of DesertXpress, also said his project is the only financially viable high-speed train option, a dig at the American Magline Group’s proposed maglev alternative.
A representative of the California-Nevada Super Speed Train Commission, which backs the maglev project, said during a question-and-answer session at the forum that maglev backers are in the process of securing an environmental impact statement, a process DesertXpress completed in March. Richann Bender, executive director of the commission, said the maglev proposal is financially viable and that American Magline would make its point at a similar UNLV forum that has yet to be scheduled.
The format of Monday night’s forum enabled Stone to make a presentation about DesertXpress and answer questions from the 75 people in attendance. Organizers say similar forums are planned for the maglev project and for a pilot project for a hybrid system designed to declutter freeways with a maglev-supported vehicle shuttling system called SolaTrek.
But on Monday, the floor was Stone’s.
During his presentation, Stone added some details about the DesertXpress, which uses traditional steel-wheels-on-rails train service on a dedicated track that would be built primarily within the Interstate 15 right-of-way between Las Vegas and Victorville, Calif. Under the plan, 10-car trains with a capacity of 675 passengers would run both directions three times an hour at peak periods Fridays and Sundays and once an hour at off-peak times. The average fare would be $50 one way and the trip on the 150 mph train would take 84 minutes.
Stone said the backers of DesertXpress have refined their plan since 2002, focusing much of their efforts on the most controversial aspect of the proposal – making Victorville the southern terminus of the line.
Stone said the Victorville terminus is viable because all Southern California travelers to Las Vegas have to go through there, whether climbing north on I-15 over Cajon Pass or east from Palmdale, Calif. He said it would be too expensive to develop a route that would enable the train to climb the steep grade of the pass and right-of-way acquisitions farther south also would increase the cost.
DesertXpress backers say a rail link between Palmdale and Victorville eventually would make the system even more viable because California’s high-speed train proposal would use similar rail technology to run along the coast from Los Angeles and Orange County to Northern California through Palmdale. Asked if passengers would tolerate changing trains in Palmdale and Victorville, Stone said because the technology would be similar that the DesertXpress train could go all the way to Los Angeles and Orange County along that route and passengers wouldn’t need to change trains.
Other details disclosed at Monday’s forum:
• Stone said construction of the train would result in 10,500 construction jobs and 8,000 jobs indirectly related to the project.
• The company already has had positive feedback from California transportation officials about linking the DesertXpress with a California Department of Transportation bus feeder system to bring passengers from throughout Southern California to Victorville. Similar arrangements are being made to coordinate with Los Angeles’ Metrolink commuter rail system and, in Las Vegas, with the Las Vegas Monorail system.
• Stone said he expects it would take at least three years from when the system begins running to maximize the marketing potential of the line. But he said in the future, he could envision a high-speed train similar to DesertXpress linking to Phoenix.
• Although schedules haven’t been developed, Stone said he envisioned the train to operate between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m., every day.
• The location of the Las Vegas station still hasn’t been determined, but there are four proposals incorporated in DesertXpress’ environmental impact statement. Alternatives include just west of I-15 near Mandalay Bay, just north of and just south of Flamingo Road, near I-15, and in downtown Las Vegas.
• While it’s not a part of the DesertXpress plan, Stone said it would be relatively easy to develop a half-mile spur off the main line near Primm to service the planned Ivanpah Valley airport.
• Asked what would happen if the proposal fails, Stone said he is confident that the line would be profitable even under the most pessimistic economic forecast but that if it did run into trouble, taxpayers would not be on the hook for construction bonds that are being financed privately. And, in a worst-case scenario, he said, the system could be sold to another operator.
• Stone also promised to follow all federal diversity guidelines when drafting contracts, a prime concern of the Ward 5 Chamber members present.
This would be a great way to travel. However, I don't understand his comment about "everyone going thru Victorville". When we go to LA, we take the 58 from Barstow to the 14 and then the 14 into LA.
So, my family of 4 is supposed to drive to Victorville from Orange County and spend $400 round trip to get the rest of the way to Vegas? If I do a little planning, I can fly for about the same amount.
This is a Joke. Welcome to the train to nowhere. Who in LA is going to drive 2 hours then spend $$ to take a train? What? Warining to Vendors, Get Cash in Advance!
This is going to be a failure and a financial nightmare like the monorail. Victorville?
A complete waste.
First of all, the idea that they will connect to Palmdale/Lancaster means going sideways, wasting energy and time. And connecting to the Metrolink in Lancaster is a joke, since the trains, while going 60-70 mph from Burbank to Union Station only go 25-35 mph coming down from the Antelope Valley. So the trip takes almost 2 hours! So let's say you take the Express to Victorville in 84 minutes, then take the right turn to Lancaster in, let's say 30 minutes, and then travel to downtown LA in 120 minutes. 4 hours plus the connection waiting times. At best you got to LA in 5 hours. WTF? God only knows the cost for a family of 4 to LA, since it will be $200 bucks just to get to Victorville.
One other thought. Cali is so screwed up that the idea of a high speed train connection will be far, far away. Like nearly never. The Green protesters will hold it up for years. The Desert Express will be a distant memory before Cali builds a high speed connector. And they will be bankrupt. Period.
Even using the 'Hound is better than this crackpot idea.
Okay this is how i read this: from LV to CA - you take this train to Victorville (Victorville?? No offense to thos who live there) for $50 a person,$200 for a family of 4 one way. but then to get to LA or Anaheim, you have either take a bus or some o ther form of transportation. THrow in hotels, food, etc. Worse coming from CA to LV.
Why not just get in your car for a lot less money (even filling up the gas tank would cost less than $200 and certainly less than $400).
Southwest Airlines is going to make some money after this train is built! like vplv says, with some planning, cheaper to fly.
What a waste of money. and typical NV attitude - 10,500 jobs for a few years and then what?
Why do all these families of four want to bring their kids to Vegas? Drop them off with a friend or relative before you come. You and everyone around you will have a better time if you don't bring your kids. As a bonus, it would only be $200 roundtrip to take the train (yes I realize this doesn't work for families of four in Vegas to go to LA, but this is being built for people to get from LA to Vegas, not vice versa).
PS if people can't take a train from the main station here in Vegas directly into or very near LA, or even Anaheim (or reverse(, why bother? it would be worth the money to do it this way even if it took 4 hrs or more. Wonder how the people in Victorville feel about all of this.
It'll never "fly" as the expression goes.
Passengers at McCarren have been down 17 months in a row which in itself says a heckuva lot about people coming to Las Bugsy.
By the time it is finished Lake Mead will be a mud hole anyway.
The reality is this will be funded by the government...thus, they really don't care and just want the money!
dart330
why put everything on the Cali people coming to vegas? That's not the only reason why they want to waste money on this thing. I'm sure the tourism industry in California would like the dollars from Nevadans and in particular from Las Vegas put into their economy too. why else get on board (pardon the pun)with this thing.
Cali people do a good job coming here on their own without a high speed train. and the way you see it, families from vegas can't go to Cali, to Anaheim? for $200, a couple without the kids can fly to vegas with no stops in between! and just have to worry about getting to and from the airport in both locations.
Your thinking isn't logical. if the powrs that be are building this train for just the Caliofornia people coming to Vegas- they are already screwed.
If you are one of the regular commuters through Freeway 15 like me, you will appreciate this train. This train system is designed to unclog the 15 especially on Friday nights going to Vegas and Sundays going back to California. Driving to and from Victorville from Ventura County is a lot better than driving to and from Las Vegas anytime.
Well Det. Munch,
I guess they are already screwed because they have previously stated the main goal of this train is to attract some of the 38 million people coming from Southern California to Vegas, not some of the 2 million people in Vegas going to California.
I live in the LA foothills and drive to Las Vegas twice a month for the weekend. It takes an hour or so to drive to Victorville (other than on a busy Friday night, when it could take 1.5 to 2 hours). When staying at the south end of the strip, it normally takes another two and a half hours from Victorville to get to my hotel. So at best, I can save about an hour (each way) by taking the proposed train for $200 round trip. And, if I did take the train, I would have the added bonus of being without my car when in Las Vegas. Since parking is always free and cabs are not, there are definitely additional dollars to be spent on local transportation. Others with larger disposable income than mine might consider all of that a decent trade-off. I do not. I'm sure that some Sunday afternoon, while I'm waiting at that rediculous fruit inspection station in Yarmo, I'll wish I was on the train, but otherwise I think I'll stick to the highway. (By the way, did anybody ask if the train had to stop in Yarmo?)
The MagLev train is the only financially viable option in the long run. The "Xpress" train will not have the ridership needed to keep it up and running. Only the MagLev, which will actually stop at destinations people would want to go to and leave from, will have the ridership to make a project like this work. Hopefully, Reid and others will throw their support back to MagLev and dump the "Xpress" waste of money.
dart330
i thought you were s marter than that to believe the hype about this train. they only hope that that many Californians will be using this thing. is that how many come to vegas on a yearly basis or is it over a longer period of time? no matter - it is all wishful thinking to try and sell what'll be a waste of money that neither state can afford, Nevada has set aside $45 millon for this already - money that could be well spent right inside of Las vegas and parts of the state that need that kind of money.
this is the same lure they put out to dumb people to get tax dollars to pay for sports stadiums.
they say "it will bring JOBS, and MONEY!".
we didn't learn from the monorail. you MUST have the access point as close as possible to where most of the riders will be coming from.
the monorail doesn't go to the airport...so it failed.
the metro-link in saint louis doesn't go to the western suburbs where most of the people who work downtown live...so it failed.
this thing is going to start at victorville?!
if it got AT LEAST to ontario it might work, but not victorville.
and do we REALLY need this? maybe in 2001, 2004, 2006...but not now.
Will it be making a stop at Nipton?
Det. Munch,
I don't know what "hype" you are talking about. My only point is the LA to Vegas market is 38 million visitors a year.
There are only 2 million people that live in Vegas, and not all of them go to LA every year.
Do you really think they care if the small number of people who live in Vegas will take this train? If they make any money, it will be off the people living in Southern California, not people who live in Vegas.
Agreed, this all sounds pretty dicey.
bdover-
Agreed on DesertXpress being a complete boondoggle. However, California's high-speed rail system should be OK. It's already being funded by its own bonds. And btw, all of us "green" environmentalists are supporting this project because this will mean more cars off the clogged freeways over there.
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
Personally, I think the Maglev plan is FAR better. The technology is newer, cleaner, and faster. And better yet, they actually have a plan to connect Vegas to Orange County... And from there, it's easy to use the existing Amtrak/Metrolink line to LA AND San Diego!
Do they really expect people to stop in Victorville for the rest of the trip to Vegas? If i'm in my car from San Diego to Las Vegas, you can bet i won't be stopping in Victorville to take a train. If i want to visit attractions off the strip, i'd have to rent a car. What about folks from Vegas going to Calif? It sounds like the Maglev is a much better idea than this train to nowhere.
People who are saying that the Maglev would be better need to read up on what the project would actually do.
The first leg of the Maglev project would cost a lot more than DesertXpress, yet it would only get from Las Vegas to Primm. Not Victorville, not Anaheim, not Ontario, but PRIMM.
The Maglev is dying and deserves to die.
These guys are entreprenuers and those of you who have never been an entrpreneurs please do not bother us with your ill formed thoughts.
You have to build something,anything,that you can start selling and grow it into something worthwhile. Without your first product/service all you have is pipedreams. Unlike most government project which try to make everyone happy, this project focuses on a narrow market segment which they can make money off of. They are providing hooks that they can grow in the future (Ivanpah airport, link to phoenix, and integration with other LA rail services). They are planning for a new future where they can be a major provider of transportation services to las vegas which will have limited competition. Once rail is in place the growth plans for I-15 will mostly likely slow down since there is a new transportation modality in place, making traffic on I-15 worse for drivers.
Air travel to LA takes as much time as driving: 2 hours before the flight, 1 hour flight time, 45 minutes to get out of the airport = 3:30-4 hours plus another hour or so to actually get where you are going, why fly when you can drive or take the train. The only delays the train will experience will be when it rains which around here is not very often. So even if I want to get to LA, I hop on the train, rent a car in Victorville and arrive at my destination in roughly the same amount of time or less than if i fly or drive and a lower risk of delays.
While I am a hard core geek and love the idea of maglev, we need a solution ASAP that works for 80% of the folks. Not perfect but functional and if various government entities want to integrate some local projects into the private venture then this makes the solution better regardless of the individual value of each project.
btw didn't Las Vegas start as a railroad stop? Let's get back to our roots.
Might as well call it the Kennedy Healthcare Express - DOA
jfujita-
Ummm, that actually makes sense. Primm has an outlet mall. Primm has casinos. Tourists want to go to Primm, and this would be an easier and faster choice than the usual trip down the 15 from The Strip.
And btw, the final cost of Maglev is not that much more than that for DesertXpress. But again, it will go ALL THE WAY to Anaheim AND we will ultimately save money with lower maintenance costs.
tomu702-
I'm NOT opposed to rail. I just want to see it done right. The Maglev plan just seems to make more business sense, especially over the long term. But even if we want to go forward with conventional rail, put forward a workable plan! I don't like how DesertXpress claims "we may work something out with CA High-Speed Rail" or "we may one day talk with Arizona officials". Either put up or shut up! Come forward with a detailed plan to make DesertXpress work or don't come to us the taxpayers and expect a bailout when we can just go forward with Maglev and their real, sensible plan.
tomu72
your points are valid. don't insult us though, we are not 'ill formed'.
this project is not going to be done "asap". it'll take years. that bypass around Hoover Dam comes to mind. yes, big dreams are what made this country great but also you got to be realistic. mybe by the time they finish this train to nowhere, the economy will be better and your grandchiuldren will be graduating from college and will move east where they can get a non-casino job that pays more than $8 an hr.
Vegas started as a stop on the way out west. and what does it being a "rail stop" have to do with the way things are today? are trains bringing people here to live the american dream of owning a home and gtting a good job? too bad there are no trains leaving Las vegas now. they'd be packed with people leaving.
dart330 - other things to do in Vegas besides gambling. Last trip we went to the El Dorado Gold Mine, Lake Mead, Pinball Hall of Fame, Red Rock Canyon.
We leave for Vegas about 5am on Friday and leave for home by 9am on Sunday. No traffic.
Kind of depressing, Det. Munch. Young people may leave LV to pursue better jobs. Fine. I traveled for Bechtel for 25 years. Never had a home. But if you think about it, the casinos are mostly filled with old fools-like me. We are sick of the rain, snow and cold weather back East. Plus the know it all BS. It's cheap to live here. Sure, we have rotten schools filled with newly arrived immigrants-you know what I mean. But no problem. Basically, the Strip is run by Bostonians and Steve Wynn, and we locals all agree that they can suck prunes if they lose money. Yes, this is no place for young people. So let them move out. They'll be old fools soon enough, and they'll come back. Ever been in Boston in January?
"Only the MagLev, which will actually stop at destinations people would want to go to and leave from, will have the ridership to make a project like this work. Hopefully, Reid and others will throw their support back to MagLev and dump the "Xpress" waste of money."
Ditto. Regardless of technology, the train has to terminate where people actually are and want to be, and Victorville ain't it.
The main station and end of line in Victorville is a REAL bad idea! I can see that it would make construction easy, but no one will use it! Anyone willing to drive from the LA area to Victorville is going to just keep on going to LV! Why in the world would a family of 4 park their car, most likely having to pay $7-$10 a day to park, then pay $400 for train tickets, then when the arrive in LV rent a car or take a cab? They can just keep on driving and get the family to LV for around $30-$40 in gas and have a car when they arrive. And, they will arrive at their hotel around the same time when you figure in the waiting, the homeland security, the boarding, the waiting for your bags, then renting a car or waiting for a cab, and you'll arrive with $360 more to spend.
This train MUST run from a central LA station if it's going to be anything more the make work project!
I imagine some well connected politician already has the parking concession in Victorville in his pocket. Maybe Harry has it in LV. My Pontiac gets 33 mpg. At today's prices, about 55 bucks round trip to LV, and I have a car to get around when I get there. I hope they succeed, but I can hear the phrase "way over budget" heading up I-15 right now. Unless they can get the train to Burbank, or at least a MetroLink terminal, the numbers will never be realized. I commend the fact that it appears to have some private dollars invested in it. I'll wave at you guys when you go by as I'm driving in the 15.
It's being rushed as a just a get it started thing to coincide when the up coming elections. Poor design, poor idea pushed by the sorry Senator Reid. Not even this will save your sorry butt.
I agree we need a high speed form of transportation from her to southern Cali however this doesnt seem like the best one?
You have to either go all or nothing with mass transit. Build it from Vegas to downtown LA or don't build it at all. I fear this thing is going to go the way of the monorail when the monorail was never extended out to the airport.
Although I have to say one thing about comparing rail to airplane. When has a one hour flight ever taken one hour? Check in, waiting for the plane to arrive and having a good chance of just sitting there with nothing to do if any number of things come up. Trains by my experience don't have that problem.
When it comes down to it, I predict failure unless the train is extended directly into LA.
I already can hear my wife or mom saying....
"You want to spend $300 on a train ride, but only after we've already PACKED THE "F-in" car,filled it with $50.00 in gas, drive 2 hours to the desert only to UNPACK the F%^& car again in 100F(30F winter) weather"? Your F%^& CRAZY!!
WAIT.......................THERE'S more!
Then you want me to hall my bags in 100F weather (or 30F winter)accross the parking lot to WAIT for a train, GO THROUGH SECURITY, LOAD my bags-again....and then do the same on the other side when I get to Vegas? Not to mention do it again on the way back..?
well you can go "F" yourself your going alone!"
END QUOTE
I can tell you that this ain't going to work. Most people take one or more of these personalities to vegas with them and I bet these cats get their way. I would not wish this trip on my worst enemies.
One other point. 10 people out of 100 would actually do the scenario above. They actually have the financial means and most importantly all the time in the world to spend loading and unloading their car. The average joe who's doesn't have that kind of cash would stick to their car, or IF they did have the means would just pay the same and just fly there.
This trip sounds like an episode of "The amazing race".
ANYONE ever heard of the "train from no where to no where"?
Only this train goes from "no where to somewhere" with Victorville always being the nowhere part of the saying. They did this in L.a with the green line stoping 2 miles shy of LAX.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/08/...
The desert express sounds like something we can get up and running in a reasonable period of time and at a reasonable cost.
The drag lev sounds more like a financial failure looking for a raxpayer bailout before they even finish building the darn thing
This will be cost & time prohibitive for the vast majority of people traveling to and from Vegas. Can you say AMTRAK? Just another Government waste-fraud-abuse project.
I dont understand why they dont just add to the monorail,and build it down to cali? Oh ya,it dosent go anywhere either!Until the bean counters go back to old style Vegas,it will never recover!The pot of gold is gone forever,and all thanks to the greedy bean counters!!!
i will still drive......
Carlosjd23 brings up an interesting point. Mainly that the Green Line in LA somehow avoids LAX completely. They have talked for years about extending it into LAX, but no, you still have to take a stupid bus to the airport. So think about it-even if they build the Express to Victorville (which I doubt), there is no way to guarantee that the train will then go to Lancaster. And what about the fact that the Metrolink doesn't run on Sundays? Who's going to pay the Union loafers overtime on the weekends? This is a taxpayer disaster-at least the Monorail, the formerly dumbest idea on rails, is not financed by the taxpayer. When will we learn?
More fraudsters with schemes to bilk stupid investors and tax payers. Think about it -do you really believe ticket prices will turn out to be $50 each way? Fifty bucks one-way is already too expensive to make it viable. But I guarantee that the figure "$50", along with probably most else being promised about this, is a lie.
A direct route connecting LAX or Amtrak's downtown L.A. terminal is something I could swallow, only becuase *someday* (thought not soon), it will make sense. Anything short of that: drive your own car from your driveway to your casino. It's faster, far more convenient, and a heckuva lot cheaper.
There is a reason no private company has built such a thing. It cant work !!!
For people in Victorville, its probably worth it. But thats not going to support the cost of the train. You need people from other parts of southerna california to make it viable (which is why no one has done it)
It would be a shame to build it with public funds, because its so obviously financially impossible.
The reason the freeway is so heavily used is that its a ver GOOD way to get to LV from Southern California.
Never gonna happen folks. All talk, where is the money coming from? When they tell you where the money is coming from, then it will be built
They should build it so that it links into the main California high speed rail system. The current plan is to premature.
You do know that this entire piece of rubbish is brought to you by the same man that brought Jim Gibbons into office.
Sig Rogich.
It's not about what is best for Las Vegas.
It's about how much money Sig can make.
The best thing Las Vegas can do is run Sig boy out of town.
Sig has so much money he got Reid to switch and start supporting this project.
How sad is this?
Sig? Shut up. Go away. You are not liked. You are not welcomed here.
It's only your money that gets the weak to kiss your feet.
Real men don't do that.
Real people don't do that.
Like I said, go away.
Where's the mob when you need them?
There in only one application of the Maglev train technology in the world. It is a short 19-mile demonstration segment at Shanghai's Pudong Airport in China. Rather than extend this demonstration project, China chose to terminate utilization of Maglev and implement its own state of the art high speed rail network similar to what is being used in Europe and other parts of Asia. Maglev is built on an elevated structure even when running "at-grade". No matter the height of the structure, it requires extraordinarily tight tolerances and structural stiffness, which translate into very short structural spans, very stiff structural decking and columns, and therefore, incredibly high costs. The world's only Maglev technology supplier (based in Germany) has disbanded its development program completely. Germany has dropped all Maglev projects due to uncompetitive high costs in favor of more efficient high speed rail. Operations and maintenance costs of Maglev are virtually unknown due to lack of manufacturing, servicing, etc. There are no existing US safety standards for Maglev technology. Therefore, the certification process for use in the US would take many years. Recent independent cost estimates for Maglev construction in this country, referenced in the Government Accountability Office (GAO) study, were performed by the Southern California Association of Governments, Maryland MTA (for the proposed Baltimore to Washington DC maglev), and the designated public transportation planning agency for the San Diego Association of Governments, found that the cost of maglev construction would likely range of $99 million to $199 million per mile. Given the above information, the cost for the proposed 260 mile line from Las Vegas to Anaheim would be between $26 billion and $52 billion. Such a cost would make the CA/NV Maglev project the most expensive transportation infrastructure project in the nation's history -- more than twice the size of Boston's "Big Dig".
What is all this talk about a "family of four"? Where in this country is it more cost effective to put a family on public transportation than to drive them? The primary users of this system would be cars with one person. A small discount coupon offered by a casino could make the trip cheaper than the gasoline for the car. It would be an easy way to encourage people to come.
The planes lost 9m passengers over the last two years, yet we are adding 9m room nights since the Palazzo opened on New Year's 2008. Visitor volume dropped by 4m. The initial year the DesertXpress opens will bring 5m people.