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Two Democrats break ranks, call for state tax hikes
Assemblywoman, senator say further cuts won’t cut it
Mona Shield Payne / Special to the Sun
Assemblywoman Peggy Pierce, D-Las Vegas, who is battling breast cancer, says it’s time Nevada lawmakers looked at raising revenue as the state stares down another budget deficit. She says she is in favor of a broad-based business tax on profits.
Saturday, Feb. 13, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Bob Coffin
Sun Archives
- Gibbons to sign proclamation Tuesday calling for special session (2-12-2010)
- Crackdown on uninsured drivers weighed to help fill state budget gap (2-11-2010)
- Governor plans emergency address on Nevada budget (2-7-2010)
- Governor’s speech will lay out state’s budget problems (2-7-2010)
- State budget comes up $800 million short (1-22-2010)
- Forecast: Economy will begin to rebound in mid-2011 (1-22-2010)
- Gibbons’ no-talk order further divides branches (1-22-2010)
- Special session may require help of state Supreme Court (1-10-2010)
Although Democratic leadership in the Legislature has shown no interest in raising taxes, two lawmakers have broken ranks to say they don’t think the only solution to Nevada’s budget crisis is to cut.
Assemblywoman Peggy Pierce and Sen. Bob Coffin, both Las Vegas Democrats, said the Legislature should consider raising taxes during a special session this month to avoid some of the worst cuts.
“We’ve already cut too much,” Pierce said. “We have the smallest government in the country and it’s not even close.”
She noted Nevada has the second- or third-lowest tax burden and ranks among the worst states in a variety of indicators. “There’s a connection. This chronic underfunding of government, our regressive tax system punishes working people, and does not require many, many businesses to pull their load,” she said.
Coffin said cuts will be necessary, but they won’t be enough to cover the state’s $881 million deficit alone.
“We have to do something to stop this carnage,” he said. “You’ll find under my recipe, we’re still going to have to cut budgets, big time. But we’re going to have to raise taxes ... If there was any waste, or excess, it was squeezed out in the first four rounds of budget cuts. This is the fifth round, and the biggest.”
Democratic legislative leadership, including Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford and Assembly Speaker Barbara Buckley, have said the state should not raise taxes during this prolonged recession.
That position has prompted criticism from traditional Democratic allies such as the teachers union and social service advocates. But even some liberal lawmakers agonizing over the cuts being negotiated with Gov. Jim Gibbons have noted that as a practical matter, the two-thirds majority necessary to raise taxes in the Legislature simply isn’t there.
“I don’t think all of my colleagues don’t want to talk about taxes. I just have a shorter fuse about being calling a coward,” Pierce said of criticism lawmakers have received from their allies.
Coffin said: “I’m working on leadership.”
On how to raise the money, Pierce and Coffin disagree.
Pierce favors a broad-based business tax on profits. This, she said, would capture large businesses — including liberals’ favorite target, Wal-Mart — that don’t pay their fair share.
Coffin says the state needs a tax that will bring in revenue immediately. An increase in the sales tax is “the quickest, most publicly acceptable,” he said.
But questions about such a solution remain.
The Nevada Constitution allows the governor to call special sessions and set the agenda. How specific a governor can be — can the agenda enumerate only solutions that the CEO finds palatable, for example? — has never been resolved.
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The Sun
Locally owned and independent for more than 50 years.
Clark County, which includes Las Vegas, imposes four separate county option taxes in addition to the statewide rate - 0.25 percent for flood control, 0.50 percent for mass transit, 0.25 to fund the Southern Nevada Water Authority, and 0.25 percent for the addition of police officers in that county.
Sure, let's increase the sales tax. Hell, it can go to 20%. We can fund assistance for illegal immigrants with 5 kids, as well as white trash on Boulder Hwy. God, when will it end?
The Democrats have never met a tax they don't like. There is no such thing as a government that is too small, they serve best.
We not only have the lowest Gaming tax in the United States, but in the entire world!
If the Sales tax in Clark County is 8.1%, should the Gaming tax equal that?
VM just because the rest of the world wants to commit suicide, that doesnt mean that nevadans want to follow.
If You want to TAX Progressives or other socialists be my guest. We can set up a register for them and tax them so they can pay their "fair share" (their words not mine), That way the rest of us can take care of our own families and not be bothered by these anti-american anti-constutional TWEZODS.
Well, I applaud the 2 of them for stating the obvious.
Kudos to them for having the courage to step up. Cuts are good, to a point. Once the meat is off the bone, there is no sense cutting into the carcass.
Peggy Pierce is the most courageous and compassionate member of the Nevada Legislature.
Tax the rich.
Spare the poor.
Those who have benefitted from society must pay their fair share to maintain society.
If Steve Winn has enough money to put his elbow through a Picasso, he and his friends have enough to pay their fair share of tax.
It's not courageous to take money from someone who earned it and give it to someone who didn't.
Still, they'll raise taxes...guaranteed. When was the last time they didn't??
Thank you Senator Coffin for recognizing that an increase in revenue is the only sensible solution for our budget crisis (though a sales tax increase is regressive and hurts the poor - there are better solutions) and thank you Assemblywoman Pierce for getting this right. Our state party leaders have been a complete disappointment and their passive approval of the Governor's "no-tax" pledge is shameful. Senator Horsford and Assemblywoman Buckley need to lead - by enacting the gross-receipts tax and a fair tax on mining. The Democrats won't be getting my vote, or the vote of most of my friends, if they refuse to address the income side of the budget during the special session.
Kids should not be suffering while mining makes record profits and senior citizens should not be denied hearing aides while Wal-Mart pays nothing in comparison in Nevada to what it pays in every other state.
Before you raise a tax that will never be repealed...look at our neighbors in California. They taxed and taxed, but never changed the problem. Our heath care system at UMC and social services at overwhelmed with our own people in need....the illegals are breaking our back as they are in california.
Wow, some intelligent, reasonable voices. Joan said it well. Thanks to Pierce and Coffin.
Horsford and Buckley had their chance, and did nothing. They're the type of Democrat that give us all reasons to wonder if we should vote for Republicans instead, even though Republicans are so blatantly pro-rich and anti-worker, and the party of religious fanatacism. But at least they're straightforward about it instead of talking out of both sides of their mouths the way some Democrats do.
Let's help Coffin and Pierce move up in the pecking order any way we can.
My school sent home notices that kids receiving reduced meals may now receive free meals. To consider this cost increase under such economic conditions must mean that we have a large number of hungry kids in this city.
If my pay is cut, my house may be empty next year.
Time for mining and big business to pay their fair share.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained an advertisement.
hey peggy and bob...
bravo...
it's time that those who have bought influence in washington and carson city...
and have enjoyed the rewards of the influence they purchased...
be held to account...
this constant cry of cutting taxes...
is old...
is tired...
is fraudulent...
it is nothing more than greddy money grab...
it destroys any sense of community...
it makes the common good a thing of the past...
stop it...
now...
tax those who are most fortunate among us...
tax those that have bought their success...
tax them now...
enough is enough!!!
Finally some leadership. Kudos for Pierce and Coffin.
The Gov. was awful on Monday night and the Dems may have matched him in their response.
Let split the baby: $440 million in spending cuts and $440 in new revenues (energy tax of sort which would impact everyone including the mines which are energy intensive)
It beats $881 million in cuts.Read the post "By Teacher", throwing a couple thousand teachers out of work will only keep the downward spiral going in LV. No one benefits from empty houses, but the vultures.
THIS PIC SAYS IT ALL
A DRY-BONE STATE
WITH A DRY-BONE GOVERNMENT TO MATCH.
IT WAS DESIGNED THAT WAY FROM THE BEGINNING.
IT'S ILLEGAL TO RAISE TAXES ON CERTAIN INDUSTRIES HERE
LOOK AT MINING
LOOK AT GAMBLING
LOOK AT PROSTITUTION
BUT THIS STATE GIVES AWAY FREE UNEMPLOYMENT, WELFARE, EDUCATION AND HEALTH BENEFITS TO
ILLEGAL ALIENS AND THEIR ANCHOR BABY OFFSPRING.
ASK PEGGY PIERCE AND BOB COFFIN WHERE THEY STAND
ON E-VERIFY.
NEITHER EVEN KNOW HOW TO SPELL IT.
THIS IS A NEAR USELESS GOVERNMENT AND UPSIDE-DOWN DRY-BONE STATE AND WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY....
Who said Democrats were tax and spend???
Raising taxes isn't a realistic position and it shows a general lack of concern for the public at-large. Government's job is not to provide jobs for well-connected and well paid people. Period.
http://npri.org/publications/wait--you-s...
Data from the state Department of Employment, Training and Rehabilitation (DETR) shows that, from the first quarter of fiscal year 2008 to the final quarter of fiscal year 2009, wages and employment opportunities for state and local government workers increased substantially while private-sector jobs and wages underwent massive cuts.
During this period, state government employment increased 5.43 percent, while total state government employee wages increased 14.17 percent. Employment in local governments increased 5.97 percent, with total wages climbing 2.64 percent. In the sacrosanct K-12 education sector, however, employment increased 16.08 percent, while total wages increased by 13.21 percent.
How did private-sector workers fare?
Employment fell 12.82 percent and total wages fell 12.63 percent.
Clearly, the effects of recession have so far been largely isolated to the private sector, where worker unemployment has topped 13 percent. Unionized public employees, thus, have been able to use their greater political power to massively transfer wealth from private-sector workers to themselves, allowing them to consume an ever-larger share of the state's economic output.
since 1978, Nevada has spent more than its budget 22 out of 32 years -- for a total unbudgeted overage of $2.83 billion. In any given year, Nevada has been over-budget by an average of $88 million, and for any given biennium, by $177 million. Since 1978, 12 of 16 biennia have seen above-budget spending.
Thus, when times are good, Nevada's government spends excessively. Indeed, in the run-up to this current budget "crisis," Nevada lawmakers not only blew massive budgetary surpluses on new programs, but drastically overspent even after that. The available data suggests legislators blew an excess of $1.4 billion in the 2003-05 biennium -- roughly the size of our budget shortfall for 2007-09. Between the two years of 2004 and 2005, Nevada's government spending grew faster than it did in the entire previous decade.
http://npri.org/publications/legislature...
Senator Coffin believes he understands basic economics, but respectfully he doesn't.
http://www.writeonnevada.com/2010/02/mul...
Senator Bob Coffin, Nevada System of Higher Education Chancellor Dan Klaich and Clark County School District Superintendent Walt Rulffes all worried that cutting jobs would have a devastating impact on Nevada's economy. Eliminating those jobs would mean those people would not be able to spend money in other areas of the economy.
But this raises a question: From whom did the government take the money in the first place, and what are the negative multiplier effects that resulted from that loss of money?
Turribula,
You just don't get it and you probably never will.
CCSD spent $1.4 million over the lowest bid for a school remodel because it has no incentive to save money or use it efficiently.
Cutting the budget doesn't mean we have to cut programs wholesale, though we can. For example - Vegas PBS ($5.4 million) Spending money on all-day K and class size reduction (around $300 million) have also proven ineffective. So is paying teachers extra for additional degrees (limited evidence suggests it is beneficial for science and math master degrees for teachers teaching science and math but no where else). Those could be cut.
But as I've said before. We need a complete overhaul of the system so that they have an incentive to use scarce resources efficiently. Empowering parents, teachers, and principals will have this effect. They will very quickly trim fat, whatever that might be.
You can check the budget if you want http://ccsd.net/directory/budget-finance...
but it doesn't show the detail. It doesn't show the millions CCSD spent on classroom microphones and speakers. It doesn't show millions spent on the same supplies it bought the previous year. It doesn't show CCSD paying more to do jobs in-house like landscaping rather than using a private company. So on and so forth.
Hey @Wizard, learn where the CAPS LOCK key is and unlock.
@Joan. Nicely done. I couldn't agree with you more.
PS all,
If you trot out the Tax Foundation study and claim we need to raise taxes because our tax burden is low, let me remind you:
That tax burden is calculated by looking at RESIDENT TAXES PAID, excluding taxes paid by many corporations and all taxes paid by tourists, then taking that number as a percentage of our income (ranked 9th highest in the nation, I believe).
You only make the claim that we need to raise taxes based on that figure if you want to RAISE A PERSONAL INCOME TAX.
If not, you need to use the total taxes collected per capita. From all sources, Nevada's tax collection per capita ranks 25th in the nation.
Damn Democrats! Spending money like drunken sailors when times are good and now, like a true Democrat, push for raising taxes on us, AGAIN! I so NO! Balance your budget! That's the only fix option. Raising taxes just prolongs FIXING the problem.
No income tax. No estate tax. Lowest gaming tax anywhere. Businesses refusing to pay their fair share. It's so nice to see two members of the legislature practicing Christian-style family values by trying to help their fellow human beings instead of adopting the un-Christian, anti-American posture of everyone for himself or herself.
Tax food at the grocery store. 20 States still do it so again, why are we so special?
Sure it is regressive, but all of us need to pay. Even the illegals - and they still buy groceries with their non taxable cash wages.
Food tax hits everyone and that is a good thing. This is not a great time to be taxing small businesses. Most likely, a food tax would bring in about $250 million dollars and it might help with the obesity problem as well.
Add taxes to liquor and cigarettes as well.
Cut the remaining $400 million. I am a Democrat but I am not stupid.
There is still fat in the budget and if you can't see it, you are just not looking. Every school district could lose 15% of it's admin costs and nobody would even notice!
Grow some nuts and get this state going in the right direction.
Firemen making almost $200,000 a year arguing for a contract for his side business to receive government help???? This was a headline in this paper just days ago. I think we can find some more cuts that can be made.
With all due to respect to those who argue that we are over-taxed by the state and local governments here in Nevada, go back east. Some may not realize or have forgotten how low taxes are in this state.
Speaking of the Tax Foundation, I would observe that the State and Local Nevada ranks 49th out of 50 states for the lowest state and local tax burden. Taxes paid by those who live in the state, not the tourists who visit.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/sho...
Gee whiz!
How about a state business climate index? For FY 2010, Nevada ranked 4th. New Jersey was dead last.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/sho...
Thank you, Peggy, for fighting to keep Nevada from becoming a Republican/Teabaggers' wet dream - a wasteland.
Hey Patrick:
Stop sending emails to me. Three this week and this is second time I am asking you to stop.
If you have something to say here is the forum. This way everyone can benefit from what you have to say.
Get a life dude.
Tax Walmart. I do like that idea.
All of our problems are easily fixed by getting rid of the parasite illegals. All of them! But it will never happen because this state and our country are screwed!
What's new with Democrats wanting tax increases?
increase state tax
increase fed tax
increase hotel tax
increase union fees
What more do they want my first born.
Stop putting bandaids on these problems and fix them,and if you can'nt RESIGN from your office
and quit milking the job.
Patrick Gibbon wrote,"Senator Bob Coffin, Nevada System of Higher Education Chancellor Dan Klaich and Clark County School District Superintendent Walt Rulffes all worried that cutting jobs would have a devastating impact on Nevada's economy. Eliminating those jobs would mean those people would not be able to spend money in other areas of the economy.
But this raises a question: From whom did the government take the money in the first place, and what are the negative multiplier effects that resulted from that loss of money?"
This entire comment is fraught with assumptions. You should actually call these people. I have personally talked to Klaich and Rulffe; both are worried about what the loss of teachers will do to the students of this state in the long term. To be honest they should be worried. I'm sure as a previously college educated person you don't care what happens to those still in need of an education but the rest of Nevada sure does care. BTW, those negative multipliers consist of well off businesses spending negligible amounts of money to help fund the education of the people they will one day hire so they can continue to fill their stuffed coffers.
Patrick Gibbon wrote,
"Turribula,
You just don't get it and you probably never will.
CCSD spent $1.4 million over the lowest bid for a school remodel because it has no incentive to save money or use it efficiently.
Cutting the budget doesn't mean we have to cut programs wholesale, though we can. For example - Vegas PBS ($5.4 million) Spending money on all-day K and class size reduction (around $300 million) have also proven ineffective. So is paying teachers extra for additional degrees (limited evidence suggests it is beneficial for science and math master degrees for teachers teaching science and math but no where else). Those could be cut.
But as I've said before. We need a complete overhaul of the system so that they have an incentive to use scarce resources efficiently. Empowering parents, teachers, and principals will have this effect. They will very quickly trim fat, whatever that might be."
Do you really need to demean people to attempt to get your point across? I agree with the majority of the points you make about improper use of educational budgets and studies show that increased degrees predominately don't increase teacher performance. However, crippling the educational systems funding is not the solution to these problems. The answer is far too complex to be jammed into a 20 second political sound bite. It involves creating state funded teacher training, the creation and use of master teacher counsels to evaluate teacher as well as administrators. It requires tying teacher raises to student improvement and performance. It requires more stringent oversight of how school administrations use funds. It requires teacher evaluations that actually have teeth rather than the stranglehold the teachers' union has in its contracts. It requires that teachers receive raises based on performance. It requires MONEY. It requires the state of Nevada to recognize that ESL students are here to stay, growing every year in numbers and are going to be a part of our future work force regardless of what prejudices people hold against them. It will require that college administrators and finance committees be held liable and accountable for their spending. It will require many more sweeping changes than these. If anyone is actually stupid enough to believe that taking a hatchet to school funding will magically fix everything maybe they need to go back to school.
PS. Patrick Gibbons, let me remind you that you are not the only person with access to research and while your efforts might be well intentioned they are often misplaced.
Something to chew on:
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/learning/...
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/united-st...
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/r...
http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/rptfiles/07-12-2...
I love and respect Peggy Pierce so much and I'm proud to call her MY Assemblywoman! Peggy is exactly the kind of like-minded Democrat we need to re-elect to the State Assembly!
Unfortunately, Peggy's political courage and will power is in the minority opinion in Carson City! If only the majority of people we elected had the courage to be candid and speak truth to power and just do the right thing?
So, what do we do? Elect Republican rats or Democratic cowards? Surely, there must be a third choice? How about electing like-minded Democrats and Independents that are willing to go on the record with sound solutions BEFORE we give them our votes!
Just think what could happen if we had more people like Peggy - gee, if they ever gained the majority, why the people just might be truly represented and we could turn Nevada into a Democracy (that would be a lot different than the Monarchy we suffer under now)!
I can't wait till the tax us till have nothing left denos ( from Cali ) get there homes taxed so muched and there cars taxed so much that maybe they will move back to California. Didn't work in your stae didn't now.
Good call VegasMama. Only in Nevada would you have gaming revenues taxed at a lower rate than retail purchases.
@Sebring:
I appreciate your comments. I do get it, but not the way Patrick thinks I should. "I don't get it" from Patrick means, he "doesn't get it."
Patrick still hasn't solved the problem of showing me where the waste is in CCSD. I took the CCSD budget and employee counts for the current academic year and asked him where the fat is.
If you divide 38,000 employees by 354 schools operated by the district. This works out to about 880 students per school; a budget of $6.7 million and 110 employees.
When you break it down you wind up with
4 administrators (1 for every 220 students)
55 licensed employees (1 for every 17 students)
33 custodial, bus drivers, food service and clerical employees.
13 subsitute teachers
10 part-time employees/contractual/temporary
Let's look at the licensed professionals
Let's assume 11 guidance counselors, librarians, psychologist, social workers. Let further assume that the teachers have to teach 5 classes in a 6 class day--that works out to about 22 or 23 to 1 student teacher ratio--for all grades.
When you start looking at the non-licensed employees, you figure 4 are bus drivers (CCSD has 1495 buses)
I made assumptions about the other 29 employees--
4 clerical for front desk
4 custodial and maintenance
1 personnel
1 fiscal officer
2 administrative assistant for fiscal and personnel
9 food service
5 teacher's aides (1 for 10 teachers)
2 Library technicians
1 other
This is hardly a bloated bureaucracy. I get back from Patrick that we need to innovate--Here you go Patrick, innovate on this. Show me.
As for the numbers we get from Patrick, they are typical of the NPRI pamphlets, very selective on numbers and short on analysis and long on rhetoric and just plainlong-winded.
Seebring,
You are right. I try very hard not to do that on here. However, Turrialba seems to ignore ever answer I give. This suggests to me that he either does not understand the issue, or does not care to understand.
Turri won't go into the hundreds of people employed in facilities, food services, transportation, or capital projects that can all be done in the private sector at a lower cost (I referenced the state of Michigan where half of the school districts privatized at least one service and saved hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions of dollars at each of the districts as a result).
I suggested we give schools the money and let them decide how best to staff the schools according to their own children's needs. Not all positions are necessary.
I suggested we look into ways to make bidding on construction projects more competitive, noting an instance where CCSD paid $1.4 million above the low-bid (the low bid was under $1 million as well). This is one instance, but how often does that happen? This is millions of dollars in waste a year.
Not a single word of acknowledgment from Turri about these problems. Indeed, that demonstrates he or she doesn't understand or doesn't care. That is not meant as an insult, just to inform other readers of another persons unwillingness to acknowledge facts.
I've referenced those reports my self.
Gates foundation recommends decentralizing school financing as I recommended to Turri, the Brookings Institution also notes that teacher certification doesn't matter.
I could also point you to reports on how class size reduction is ineffective, why paying teachers more doesn't improve the quality of teachers so on and so forth.
I can also produce reports for you showing how Charter Schools and vouchers provide a better learning environment, on average, than traditional public schools at a lower cost.
Cutting the budget won't make kids learn more (just as spending more money won't do anything). Using existing resources more efficiently (ie on what works) will improve student achievement.
Vouchers are wealth redidstribution. The libertarian party supports wealth redistribution. Libertarians also want to TAX you and send the money to churches. Support separation of church state, DO NOT VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!!
Patrick:
You tell me the budget is bloated. Fine show me where the waste is in the example I put forward? Where do you want to cut? Where do you want to innovate? Here is your chance to repair everything. Show me Patrick
Gee Patrick--how 'bout the $1.4 million contract? Yes, Patrick, This is one instance and how often does it happen? Occurring once doesn't make a trend. Give me a fact to to acknowledge. Show me Patrick
I do ignore the emails you send to me via the LVSun. Three last week? How many more this week?
Nick give it a rest. Libertarians do not support a church state. I'd rather do tax-credits with corporate tuition tax-credits to create low-income scholarships, but vouchers work just as nicely.
Besides, we're already engaging in wealth redistribution with the current public school system. Its just we are wasting a lot of money by getting little return out of the investment.
You can't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Turri,
CCSD's budget is $3.7 billion, with $2.1 in a general operating budget. If you want me to show you where to cut, show me the line item budget and every receipt. That budget gives the big picture it doesn't show every dime of waste.
But for quick cuts that will have little to no negative effect on student achievement.
Cut all day k, class size reduction funds (small class sizes are only as good as the teacher and frankly we don't have a good teacher education system, we don't measure the quality of the teachers and we don't offer bonuses for great teachers so we may actually be increasing the risk of students being exposed to bad teachers as a result of this program). Eliminate bonuses for extra degrees (no benefit except for math and science teachers), reform PERS, freeze capital projects and sweep some capital funds, eliminate Vegas PBS. That together would eliminate the shortfall all together. Of course, I've already noted that.
Some long term changes include creating a voucher or tax credit program. Expanding charter schools (Arizona has 400 and their capital projects per pupil is significantly less, partly as a result - in fact if Nevada had the same capital project expenditure efficiency we'd save about $320 million a year). Decentralize school funding and empower teachers and principals to make their own budgets. Privatize or use competitive sourcing on facilities, landscaping, food services and transportation. Ensure bidding on construction projects is expensive and make cost one of categories for winning the bid.
Patrick forcing me to send money to churches is a violation of my freedom. Giving checks to people in excess of what they pay in taxes is wealth redistribution.
Face it Libertarians are looking to get religion in goverment and want to TAX TAX TAX us for their far right agenda.
Support freedom, dont vote for wealth redistribution from Libertarians.
You're already giving your money involuntarily to people to spend in ways you may disagree with. Courts have ruled that tax credits are NOT government money but individuals money.
Libertarians do not want a church state. The more you say this the more it makes me think you're just a teacher union member trying to make nutty comments. That or you just make the perfect the enemy of the good. Eliminating public schools is NOT an option that is on the table.
PS, you do realize that lots of libertarians are atheists and agnostics right?
Turri,
I've been answering your questions here. You ignore them here, which is why I sent them to your email. You ignore them there too. Asking the same questions over and over doesn't make you right - it just shows you don't care to have a dialogue or an open mind.
Patrick a tax credit that is more than you pay in taxes is welfare. Libertarians want to increase welfare and enrich churches to fund their far right agenda.
Stop welfare, do not vote libertarian.
Where is your answer Patrick? Not answering the questions or talking past the question doesn't make you right. I don't need a bunch of links to the NPRI website and waffle. I asked a question of someone who represents himself as an expert in the field of education. I do not represent myself as such.
Come on Patrick show me the waste in my example? Is the example not appropriate? If so why not? Show me.
(Posted for the second time here (and posted elsewhere)
CCSD's budget is $3.7 billion, with $2.1 in a general operating budget. If you want me to show you where to cut, show me the line item budget and every receipt. That budget gives the big picture it doesn't show every dime of waste.
But for quick cuts that will have little to no negative effect on student achievement.
Cut all day k, class size reduction funds (small class sizes are only as good as the teacher and frankly we don't have a good teacher education system, we don't measure the quality of the teachers and we don't offer bonuses for great teachers so we may actually be increasing the risk of students being exposed to bad teachers as a result of this program). Eliminate bonuses for extra degrees (no benefit except for math and science teachers), reform PERS, freeze capital projects and sweep some capital funds, eliminate Vegas PBS. That together would eliminate the shortfall all together. Of course, I've already noted that.
Some long term changes include creating a voucher or tax credit program. Expanding charter schools (Arizona has 400 and their capital projects per pupil is significantly less, partly as a result - in fact if Nevada had the same capital project expenditure efficiency we'd save about $320 million a year). Decentralize school funding and empower teachers and principals to make their own budgets. Privatize or use competitive sourcing on facilities, landscaping, food services and transportation. Ensure bidding on construction projects is expensive and make cost one of categories for winning the bid.
By CCSD's own admission they employ 6 bureaucrats to approve purchase requests from the local schools. Sometimes all six must approve the request. CCSD admits to employing them.
That is one example of waste you won't find in the budget because the budget doesn't give enough detail to expose all the waste.
Turri,
Did you know a custodian at CCSD makes $40,000 a year in salary and benefits? A head custodian is making over $58,000. Is it necessary to employ so many and pay so much? I can't answer that, and the budget won't show you that. Empower the principals and teachers on how to use the budget and we will find out how useful $40,000 a year custodians are when it comes to improving student achievement.
Curious...what would the unemployment % be IF there were no Illegals???
Its seem to me, that by them taking jobs, getting benefits for their anchor babies, by getting free health care..and bombarding all your hospitals ...just curious..wouldn't it really help out that city, if the Illegals were GONE!!!!!
Is $40,000 per year a lot? Including Benefits-Is that about $15 per hour plus health retirement and other? .
4 custodians and maintenance hardly seems excessive in a school of 880 to me. Well if we cut the head custodian and three assistance by half that would save about $89,000 per year on our $6.7 million budget or about 1 percent.
Next cut.
Cuts should be made with a scapel, not an axe; but it should be done at least as much as that actress who had ten surgeries in one day to make herself prettier. While mental health in Nevada has risen to 13th from the bottom from nearly dead last in the nation, this has been due to legislative action. The MH administration policy has been to block and delay innovations. Client frustration with the system is great, and the resaon so many become "frequent flyers" who wind up using larger % of services. Unfortunetly the policies of MH, like much of social services, treat clients as property instead of human beings. And, no attorney is ever willing to accept as clients (except in narrowly defined issues)anyone who has been tagged as mentally ill, so the policy abuses contine.
777 Get over blaming illegals for your lack of success. You want to get better pay, get an education. You want to pour drinks and wait tables with a GED, deal with the competition.
The rest of us are tired of over paying people with no skills so they can fleece us for the lifestyle they never trained for.
Turrialba,
Clark County's schools are opened about 185 days a year. Cleaning during the summer months would be sharply reduced and custodians will not be needed for the hole day (just enough to dust and mop).
At 200 days of work for 7 hours a day that comes to some $28.57 an hour in salary and benefits for custodial work.
Library aides make $35,000
Media Specialists make $77,000
The average person employed by food services makes $67,000
The average person employed by capital projects makes $88,000
Internal service makes $71,000
Professional Development $113,000
Principals range from the low $100,000 up to $143,000 (again a district average)
Dean, do we really need a dean? That is $97,000 per school.
Admin Secretary/Clerks average $54,000
Office Supervisors $56,000.
Most work limited schedules of no more than 185 days in the year. All of this adds up. And 1% from just one item is pretty darn good.
This brings me to my next point. If you want to help us find places to cut, help advocate getting the government check book online. Then we can see the nitty gritty detail.
PS a 1% efficiency gain from the operating budget alone is a staggering $21 million in savings. Applied to the whole budget you're looking at $37 million.
"Did you know a custodian at CCSD makes $40,000 a year in salary and benefits? "
I know a guy working the front desk spraying shoes and selling lanes at the Orleans bowling alley. He makes $14 an hour, plus benefits. To his understanding, the janitors working in the casino/rooms make more than he makes.
Just a little perspective... but I thought you were trying to portray CCSD custodians as being overpaid.
This is helpful. Do all of the salary figures you provide include benefits?
What's a dean? What does a dean do in a public school and how many are there out there? One per school? Is this what we called an assistant principal back in the dark ages? Or is it a department head?
Let's talk about the 55 licensed professional that are listed in my hypothetical school.
What is the breakdown on this group? Who are they and how many of these people are classroom teachers?
Ksand, do you know if custodians at the Orleans are making $40,000 a year in salaries and benefits? How do we know they aren't overpaid relative the the rest of the market in Las Vegas?
Turri, yes all figures are salaries plus benefits. Remember PERS is a VERY expensive benefit.
Dean's' are assigned to schools based on head count, same with assistant principals, councilors, nurses, library aides, teacher aides, etc. Most positions are assigned to schools by seemingly arbitrary figures.
For example,
, high schools in Clark County with enrollments of 500 or more students will receive an Assistant Principal. High schools will receive two Assistant Principals with an enrollment of 1,300, three with an enrollment of 1,800 and four with an enrollment of 2,900.
School councilors are rationed to elementary and middle schools for every 500 students and to high schools for every 400 students. School psychologists and school nurses are budgeted by the district -- one for every 1,875 students.
Elementary schools are assigned teachers based on the number of students in each grade. For example they receive one licensed classroom staff member for every 16 students in grades 1-2, for every 19 students in grade 3 and for every 30 students in grades 4-5. Middle and high schools receive one licensed classroom staff member for every 32 students.
As for what to cut, like I said, empower the local schools to control their own budgets and let them decide how best to use the resources. They will quickly trim the fat.
(This is why private school tuition is already lower than the average cost of a public school - and that is excluding capital outlays and debt repayment expenditures from the local schools).
The other note which I must repeat - lets get the government checkbooks online.Then we can see how much the government spends on what.
Food services...why not outsource the job to McDonalds - they can and will cater nutritious meals that are not available in their regular stores. And or, employ students at the local school, rather than adults, to serve the food. Offer parents "free or reduced" cost morning and afternoon programs in exchange for volunteer time in the cafeteria or other needed services. I'm sure dozens of ideas will be created when the local schools are truly empowered.
Instead of running a bus service divide the money per pupil and offer parents vouchers that can be redeemed for gas money, private busing or a competitive public busing system.
Why does a school of 800 need to employ 110 people? Why have 4 office clerks? Why not just one and an office manager. Why so many substitutes? Maybe we should reduce teacher sick days (I was a teacher once, and I know they can be abused).
ANSWER: Empower the school, empower the parent, put the checkbook online.
Pat: You keep advocating more welfare!
Send parents money for free lunch
Send parents money for transportation
send money for schools of choice.
When does the libertarian welfare end? Dont you see the fraud that would result?
Libertarians will bankcrupt us.
Nick, the current system has already bankrupted us. Using existing resources more efficiently will not. The perfect should not be the enemy of the good.
Nonsense. You advocat paying parents to drive their kids to school? How about some personal responsibility?
Libertarians just want to move big money to churches and corporations. This wont solve budget problems, it just picks new winners.
I agree the system is broken, but increasing welfare is not the answer. Libertarians want to redistribute wealth and that is a BIG concern.
Personal responsibility is nice. This actually encourages a little personal responsibility - more so than the current system and at no additional cost. The idea was to use existing transportation dollars to create a market place in public school transportation by empowering parents to control those dollars and thus, direct how the service is provided to them.
Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
No you advocate welfare and wealth redistribution. Admit it.
We need to start from scratch not play a shell gane with existing budgets. You want churches and corporastions to get the money, the unions want it for them. You both are the problem. Give the money back to the tax payers and let them solve their own problems.
Keep unions, corporations and churches out of our pockets. let the people decide where and how to spend. Libertarians are trying to force one decision on all of us.
Let's talk about the office clerk function. I struggled with this one. Back in the old days there was a front office which took care of stuff. Kids coming in late had to sign in, secretarial stuff for the administrators/teachers. They were sort of keepers of the gate-security. There were about three of four of these people.
There are no security guards in my school--CCSD employs one-half policeman/woman per school to watch the front door. This is necessary, so if I cut 3 of the administrative people, I may have to add a security person of some sort.
The substitutes are a problem. There seemed to be a lot in terms of numbers. I assumed that they are given a per diem rate. Some want to work five days, others want to work less. When cold and flu season hits, absenteeism among teachers soared. It was inevitably some friend's mom or some unemployed graduate of some state teacher's college. They floated from school to school.
As for the bus situation--CCSD reports that 112,000 of its 309,000 or about 1/3 of all students make use of buses. Would all parents receive vouchers or just the parents of the 112,000? Frankly, I was a bit surprised by how low the number was.
I went to a school where the school buses were provided by a private firm. I never though a lot about it. The district had to provide service not only to its own students but to the parochial schools as well. Private school parents paid taxes the courts concluded.
Outsourcing could present a problem is so much as each bus is a fixed cost and are there opportunities to use the bus for other functions to spread those costs over more miles?
Let's talk about the private schools--lets say they cost about $6,600 per year.
Reminder--the hypothetical school takes all CCSD and divides by 352 (number of schools)--so overhead from headquarters is allocated to the school.
This is $7,600 per pupil and according to Patrick this does not include another $3,600 per public for buildings (is that right Patrick?) This is carry? Does it include services such as utilities or is that included in the $7600?
One last point: The hypothetical school has 4 administrators.
Assuming 1 principal for the school of 880, this leaves 3 administrators to be accounted for.
Is this the fat? Let's say we add one administrator to handle purchasing and planning from the school.
That leaves 2 administators--who let's say take in salary and benefits or about $300,000 per year assuming each makes about $150,000.
Cut the two administrators to zero and that reduces the school budget by 4.5% or $300,000.
If you couple that with the 1% from the custodial cuts, were are down about 5.5% from our school budget of $6.7 million.
unfortunately only a politician who has looked into the abyss can tell the obvious truth, still, my hat is off with respect
$67,000 for a food service person. Is this a typical food service person.
If we have 9 in the school, cut their pay in half--$33,500--a savings of 300,000 per annum or 4.4%
Turriabla,
What in the world does this mean?
If you divide 38,000 employees by 354 schools operated by the district. This works out to about 880 students per school; a budget of $6.7 million and 110 employees.
How do you divide employees by schools and get students?
Where did you get your GED?
Oops. Did my research, Patrick--36.5 million meals last year.
Labor cost to the school of $272,000 for 3 full-time and 2 part-time employees or $68,000 per full time employee.
Food costs and operating costs total about $5.20 per meal. Labor is about 25% on the cost.
Operating loss of $23,000 for the school lunches.
Is this inefficient?
This is about Hmmm. I take back my cuts.
@lbfromlv:
I haven't got the GED yet but I am working on it.
Sorry for the confusion (this is part of a thread Patrick and I have been having this past week) I apologize for the confusion. We have been searching for places to cut CCSD.
The source of the information is CCSD Fast Facts--
http://ccsd.net/news/publications/pdf/CC...
The source of the information is CCSD Fast Facts--
352 schools
309,000
38,000 employees (they are broken down by various types
School-lunch information-
http://ccsd.net/foodservice/FSFiles/Docu...
A 5.5% efficiency gain would be worth $115 million from the operating budget alone. There is still efficiency to gain from capital outlays and debt repayment (although that would have to be long term). Using charter schools to expand operations would be wise. They don't have access to capital outlays and debt service so they have to make due with the $7,600 they receive per pupil (I believe it may actually be less than that). That means they are able to hire a staff, educate students and maintain a building for a lower cost.
On another note, public school principals are burdened by lots of district and state regulations that focuses their attention on meaningless paperwork. The head principals main job should be to focus on student achievement, to make sure he/she has the right staff, and the right supplies for the job. Empower the schools and eliminating state level and district level mandates can free up their time and allow them to focus on what really matters.
Well Pat, this would be great for the Mormons. Thats why Glenn Beck and the rest of the Libertarians are pushing these issues. Millions of tax dollars to the mormons.
Think of the millions LDS could get there hands on. At $7 grand a kid, a moromon family with 6 kids gets $42,000 a year! Plus they get paid to drive them to school and we all have to pay for the lunch.
The Mormon church would have the schools, so they would see major cash. Now they can afford to have more kids on the tax payers dime.
I know I work to support the mormons. Libertarians are pushing these religous issues way too far!
"Ksand, do you know if custodians at the Orleans are making $40,000 a year in salaries and benefits? How do we know they aren't overpaid relative the the rest of the market in Las Vegas?"
Let's assume, for your benefit alone, that the janitors earn what my friend earns, $14 an hour. (He was told they earn more per hour, though)
That's about $30k a year. Factor in health care and the matching 401k contributions, and I'm sure that bumps up his salary+benefits to near or above $40k.
As for being "overpaid," I thought the free market was supposed to decide that. Are you saying that the free market has failed? (Again)
The total benefit package then would be around $20 an hour. Is that the free market? Or is something disrupting the market?
Gaming is a near monopsony (or at least functions like one as the single largest employer in the state) and monopsonies attract unions for good or bad. It may very well be the case that the unions have negotiated above market rates (at the expense of consumers or by excluding other service providers in the market).
PS, the free market hasn't failed, we really haven't tried one - not with our complicated tax code, tariffs, trade barriers, and 90,000 pages of federal regulations.
Nick, I can't decide if you are a populist bigot, a union insider telling tall tales, or just misinformed.
With your calls to raise corporate taxes, demands for a nanny state protecting health and subsidizing non-smokers and your contradictory retorts to push for adult responsibility by completely eliminating the welfare state have me a bit confused.
PS, we're already paying $11,000 a kid to educate them in the state. Vouchers and tax credits would just create a market using the same resources (or even less).
I am for lower taxes, smaller goverment, and hate unions.
I also hate religous organizations and their pit bulls like you in my pocket.
You are the only one asking for subsidies. we can cut education expenses without giving our tax dollars to the Mormons but that spoils your libertarian plan doesn't it?
It's time to raise taxes on the Casinos they pay 6.75% taxes the lowest in the county. It's time they pay their fair share. Nevada has one of the most regressive tax system that hurts the working poor not to mention most Americans haven't had a pay raise in over ten years. Nevada is the largest gold producer in the United State with the tax rate on mining capped at 5 percent maybe we could get a little money from here.It's time to consider a State income tax. A society that doesn't take care of it's weakest, sickest, poorest, and youngest isn't civilized. To cut education is to cut your own throat a uneducated work force equal no job creation.
Casinos, all 266 of them in Nevada, only pay 6.75%, the lowest in the nation. Gasoline tax is only 33.1%. Cigarette tax is only .80 as opposed to places like New York City where it's over $4.00. The state-loal tax burden in Nevada was 6.6% in 2008. Mining pays less than one half of 1%. We do not have a state income tax or inheritance tax, thank the gods, however, in many areas our taxes are incredibly low.
It stinks, but for the short term a slight increase in gasoline tax would hit the largest demographic in our state and help tremedously with out deficit. Think about it; add another 10-cents per gallon. You telling me you can't afford another $1.50 when you fill up your average 15 gallon vehicle? How much was your latte, Sally? About you, Bo; how much was your soda?
That won't help, nobody here to pay taxes. Bring some jobs into the state that is the solution.
Patrick R. Gibbons.
Employed by: National Policy Research Institute.
npri.org check it out for yourself.
Pat spends his days in the "think tank" environment of
Ultra-Conservative, LIBERTARIAN LUNACY.
Do you suppose Patrick R. Gibbons has an agenda?
Yes, to get government out of people's personal lives, out of their personal bank accounts and to get government to be open, transparent, honest, accountable and to maximize the utility of tax dollars to provide the best service at the lowest price.
What part of that do you have a problem with?
Patrick wants the goverment out so he can get the churches in our lives. Pat preaches that most tax dollars should be sent to churches via vouchers. Goodbye freedom, hello church state. Sounds like libertarians want to have a middle east society here. No thanks. I prefer liberty.
Patrick:
The basic problem with your approach is that you assume that whatever alternative you create will improve performance.
Stanford University did a study of charter schools in 15 states and the District of Columbia:
The study reveals that a decent fraction of charter schools, 17 percent, provide superior education opportunities for their students.
Nearly half of the charter schools nationwide have results that are no different from the local
public school options and over a third, 37 percent, deliver learning results that are significantly worse than their student would have realized had they remained in traditional public schools.
http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIP...
Turning over the cash to the CCSD without strings, will that make them more accountable and to whom?
Turri,
Research by former Harvard professor and now Stanford Professor Carolyn Hoxby on charters: http://www.nber.org/~schools/charterscho...
Hoxby's damning critquie of the CREDO studn:
http://www.nber.org/~schools/charterscho...
This is what Dr. Greene from the University of Arkansas has to say about CREDO:
While that study has the benefit of covering 15 states and DC, it can't correct for the self-selection of students into charter schools like the highest quality studies linked above. On average, students appear to be drawn to switching to charter schools because they are having trouble in their traditional public school. Simply controlling for those students' prior achievement and other observed demographic factors doesn't quite correct for whatever negative factors may have caused students to switch to charters and that may continue to hinder their academic progress. The CREDO study is as good as it can be given its approach, but I would have greater confidence in the consistent findings from several studies in different locations that do control for self-selection into charter schools.
Nick,
Sweden sends kids to private schools using tax dollars because in Sweden you can go to any school you want. Where is their church state?
More from Dr. Green
The CREDO study doesn't fully correct for self-selection but it does a pretty good job of controlling for what it can. And breadth of coverage is important because we know that charter schools can be completely different things in different states.
Frankly, it is plausible that charters are doing a great job in big cities, like NYC, Chicago, and Boston (from where most of our studies that do correct for self-selection come from), but do much less well in suburbs or rural areas. Big cities are the places where choice and competition is most limited in the absence of charters, so perhaps the introduction of charters makes a big difference. In suburbs you already have a fair amount of choice and competition. And in suburbs the traditional public schools may be powerful enough to block quality charters from entering their market. Since charters have to receive a license to operate from the traditional public schools or their allies, you may get sub-par charters in suburbs.
The memo, "A Serious Statistical Mistake in the CREDO Study of Charter Schools," by Caroline Hoxby, does not provide any basis whatsoever for discounting the reliability of the CREDO study's conclusions. The central element of Dr. Hoxby's critique is a statistical argument that is quite unrelated to the CREDO analysis. The numerical elements of it are misleading in the extreme, even had the supporting logic been correct. Unfortunately, the memo is riddled with serious errors both in the structure of the underlying statistical models and in the derivation of any bias.
The technical aspects of these issues are described below, but the overall description of the problem is straightforward. She considers estimation of models that are very different from those estimated by CREDO and derives conclusions that are completely irrelevant to the CREDO results.
http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/CREDO_...
Patrick Sweden is not in bed with the religous right. Your Libertarian/Mormon agenda is a violation of the separation of church and state.
I know you wnat a church run goverment, but some of us still want freedom. Remember freedom, a thing that seems foreign to the Glen Beck Libertarian party.
Turri,
Academics will always accuse each other of "serious statistical errors" and "elementary mistakes" That is exactly what Hoxby said of CREDO and they turn around and say "We know you are but what am I?"
The CREDO study is flawed, as Dr. Greene noted as well. You can't take the individual student at the charter school and compare them with the aggregate of students at public schools. You also need a randomization study to be more accurate.
The randomization studies that have been done so far, like the one I showed you, demonstrate that charter schools perform modestly better than traditional public schools.
Sweden has vouchers, no church state. Hmmm.
What about Alberta in Edmonton Canada? Where is their church state?
What about Chile, Czech Republic, Denmark?
Is it because they don't have Mormons. The more you say the word "Morman" the more it makes you look like a bigot. You can't oppose a program that works just because you hate someone. This is the 21st century, bigotry is so last centry.
So Patrick, if I understand what you are saying is that students who perform poorly in public school perform poorly in charter schools?
You are the bigot and your narrow minded cult.
You advocate taking millions of tax dollars and turning them over to churches. That is not freedom.
Rather than cutting spending, you just want the money for your religion.
The Glen Beck Libertarians are a religous organization and should be taxed as such.
Your discrimination and hate speaks bounds.
Academics will always accuse each other of "serious statistical errors" and "elementary mistakes" That is exactly what Hoxby said of CREDO and they turn around and say "We know you are but what am I?"
I guess that isn't what you are doing too.
Turri,
Not according to the randomized studies. On average, poor achieving students are at very poor quality public schools. They go to a charter school or use a voucher to go to a private school or public school of their choice, those students, on average, end up doing better.
The reason why looking at the aggrigate data in this instance is bad is
1) every choice and charter program has different rules helping or hurting them and
2) charter schools are most likely set up in areas with VERY bad public schools.
You don't compare a charter school in an urban area that is 90% low-income with 90% minority population and compare it to all public schools which include the rich white kids in suburbia as well.
Randomized studies look at students who attended or did not attend a voucher based on lotteries.
That is, kids are assigned to a treatment group and a control group just like in a medical study (or as you would see on Myth Busters). This allows us to control for unknown or otherwise uncontrollable variables. Since kids are randomly assigned to either group you would have difficulty claiming the results were biased by things like income, parental involvement or hair color (or whatever odd excuse people come up with to oppose what works).
You don't compare a charter school in an urban area that is 90% low-income with 90% minority population and compare it to all public schools which include the rich white kids in suburbia as well.
Why not? Isn't the point to equalize achievement among all students regardless.
Because it doesn't provide an accurate portrait of what is happening in the urban charter school. You don't want to compare apples to oranges.
You may end up opposing charter schools despite the fact that they are the best available option to low-income and minority students in urban city cores.
Patrick
I was afraid you would say that.....
ok
Is equalizing achievement among all students the same as income redistribution?
Liberals would like all students to wear olive drab uniforms so it will appear not to be any class differences.
Liberals and unions have ruined the public school system and it is now time to try something else...
"Liberals and unions have ruined the public school system and it is now time to try something else..."
Oh jeez, if some random guy with a nametag that says, "Larry" comes up to you and offers to "educate" your child, run!
Do not accept candy from strangers in vans, kids.
Sorry there ksand00. I do not have the time "educate" children. I am way too busy trying to "educate" all those Liberals who are "slow learners."
Don't be late for your English Comprehension class there ksand00, and be sure to bring your homework...
"Sorry there ksand00. I do not have the time "educate" children."
Sorry, I know the restraining order must be hard on you. Have you notified everyone in your neighborhood yet?
Isn't that the law?
I wear an ankle bracelet with Harry's name on it so it is OK for me to walk around the neighborhood.
By the way there ksand00, start taking your trash cans in. You are not suppose to leave it out on the street as long as you do...
No tax hikes in my state please!
- Mark Szczygiel
What a stupid title!
Democrats aren't breaking ranks, they are simply being democrats.
What happens if they tax? My guess is the same thing that happens every time, they don't make what they project and they fish for more. They charge businesses and then can't figure out why people are losing more jobs.
Additionally, the money never moves to cover what it should.