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STEVE MARCUS / LAS VEGAS SUN FILE
This solar field is part of the Nevada Solar One 64-megawatt solar thermal power plant in Boulder City’s Eldorado Valley Energy Zone.
Monday, April 26, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Solar Solutions in Amargosa Valley?
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The residents of nearby towns are warming up to the newest proposed solar plant, which would be built on land between U.S. 95 and the Big Dune recreation area on the north end of the Amargosa Valley. But environmentalists and off-roaders still have their doubts.
Sun Archives
- Amargosa Valley solar power plant plan clears another hurdle (3-22-2010)
- County OKs plans for solar power plant near Primm (3-18-2010)
- Expert: Climate change effort will take centuries (3-2-10)
- Amargosa Valley warms up to solar plan (1-21-2009)
- Storing the sun’s heat (12-31-2009)
- NV Energy agrees to purchase Crescent Dunes solar power (12-22-2009)
- Amargosa Valley solar plant to use less water (11-17-2009)
- Vision for desert solar power plant expands (9-23-2009)
- Dirty detail: Solar panels need water (9-18-09)
- Latest obstacle to rural solar plants a tiny toad (9-11-2009)
- The cost of building a solar powered economy (8-16-2009)
- Small town making hay (3-8-2009)
- Another solar power plant in the works for Boulder City (1-19-2009)
- Solar power plant opens in Boulder City (1-5-2009)
- Solar firms seek land (12-24-2008)
Solar power is the green energy darling of the Southwest.
It could create an entirely new economy for downtrodden Southern Nevada, help free the nation from its dependence on foreign oil and allow for the phasing out of power plants that are polluting the air and contributing to climate change.
But the most popular type of industrial solar technology has a dirty little secret: Many of these plants are not emission-free.
Solar thermal plants concentrate the sun’s heat to boil salt water or oil to run a steam turbine. The technology is more popular for large-scale energy generation than photovoltaics, which convert the sun’s rays directly into electricity. Solar thermal creates more electricity for the investment and has the potential to store the heat to create electricity at times when photovoltaic can’t, such as at night or when the sun is blocked by clouds.
The problem is some solar thermal power plants release greenhouse gases and particulates into the air.
The amount is minuscule compared with what is spewed from natural gas-fired power plants of the same size. But with potentially dozens of solar thermal plants expected to be built across the Southwest in the next few years, the cumulative effects could be problematic.
Nevada Solar One, among the first to be built in decades, has been operating in Boulder City since June 2007. The 64-megawatt power plant is the only solar thermal plant operating in the state, and it is emission-free.
But a new generation of larger and more powerful solar thermal power plants is planned for the Southwest. Unlike Nevada Solar One, many of these plants would need to be jump-started each morning by natural gas or propane gas-fueled heaters and boilers.
And that’s where the air pollution comes in.
Environmental impact statements for two projects planned near Las Vegas — BrightSource Energy’s Ivanpah Solar Field and Solar Millennium’s Amargosa Farm Road solar project — note that those boiler-enabled solar thermal power plants will send carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide and particulates into the air.
Together, carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxide are the major components of ozone or smog. Breathing ozone can trigger a variety of health problems including chest pain, coughing, throat irritation, permanent scarring of the lungs and congestion. It’s particularly problematic for children, whose lung tissue is still forming, and for the elderly. The Environmental Protection Agency is proposing more stringent regulations regarding how much ozone can be in the air.
Solar thermal plants can emit particulates, microscopic particles of liquids and solids, from heaters and boilers and from maintenance vehicles used on site.
Exposure to these particles can be bad for lungs and hearts, according to the EPA. Scientific studies have linked exposure to particle pollution to respiratory problems, decreased lung function, chronic bronchitis and heart attacks.
The bright side of the solar thermal plants for the region is that individually they will create less air pollution than comparable-power fossil-fuel plants, says Ben Machol, who manages the clean energy and climate change office for EPA’s Region 9.
The 400-megawatt Ivanpah project, for example, is projected to emit 33 tons of carbon monoxide a year. A combined-cycle natural gas plant putting out the same amount of electricity would release 400 tons a year.
The 464-megawatt Amargosa plant would emit about 15 tons of nitrogen oxide a year; a comparable natural gas power plant would send 100 tons into the air, Machol says.
According to the developer, the Amargosa plant would produce about 4.9 pounds of carbon monoxide per megawatt hour of electricity produced, compared with 822 pounds per megawatt hour for a natural gas plant.
They say their facility generates only 6.5 percent of the particulates of a natural gas facility on a per-megawatt-hour basis.
The Ivanpah plant could emit about 8.5 tons of particulates a year, compared with 54 at a natural gas plant of the same size, Machol says.
The Sempra Energy solar plant, shown here, will be joined by yet another solar company after the Boulder City Council finalized a deal to lease about 1,150 acres in the El Dorado Valley to NextLight Renewable Power. The NextLight plant, which would be the third in Boulder City, is expected to be up and running by 2011.
So if it were a choice between a solar plant and a natural gas plant, solar wins the air quality category.
But no one is proposing dozens of new natural gas plants across the Southwest. The Obama administration and California are hoping solar plants can be built to meet anticipated demand for electricity to power household electronics, economic growth and electric vehicles. That is going to take a lot of renewable energy.
The Amargosa and Ivanpah projects are not the only solar thermal plants planned for the area.
Developers have about 60 solar power projects slated for federal land in Southern Nevada. Bureau of Land Management’s records don’t indicate how many of the projects would use boilers, but 32 are identified as either solar thermal or concentrating solar power, which includes both solar thermal and advanced solar photovoltaic technologies.
A few solar thermal projects also are planned for private or municipal land in Southern Nevada and several are planned near the California and Arizona borders.
The sheer number of applicants for industrial-scale solar thermal plants in this area has some environmental activists worried that Southern Nevada’s poor air quality could get worse.
A dozen projects such as the Ivanpah one would emit the same amount of ozone pollution as a full-scale 400-megawatt natural gas power plant. Six similar solar thermal plants could create the same amount of particulate emissions as a natural gas plant.
Exactly how the large number of solar thermal power plants could affect Southern Nevada is not quantifiable, according to the EPA. That’s because each one uses a slightly different technology and it’s hard to demonstrate where their emissions will flow once they hit the air.
The BLM has to consider these cumulative effects during the environmental review for each plant, but it has little research to base its decisions on.
http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/national...
When looking at what's happening on this mexican oil platform, everything you or the oil industry is saying is just ridiculous. Also the oil spill at the great barrier reef in australia.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/arti...
And I'm not even talking about the war in Iraq.
So get your mind together - please - and think !!
Solar thermal power plants are the gentlest way to fulfill the energy needs of our society.
Let me know if you find anything better !!!
the one in spain doesnt actually boil any chemicals, what it does is heat water via heating salt, the steam turns turbines producing electric, no chemicals are produced other than some steam..
How to make money in the new "green economy":
How about the insanity of greenery?
A German aristocrat of my acquaintance has figured out that the price he will be paid for the output of a solar panel is so high compared with the price he will pay for his input of normal electricity, that he is thinking of rigging up powerful arc lamps to shine on solar panels on his extensive roof.
A diesel generator will power the arc lamps, just don't get caught providing "power" during the evening hours, even the bureaucrats would become suspicious.
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2...
With an average of 300 days a year of sunshine, Southern Nevada should have had some type of solar energy system in place 30 years ago...but no, of course not! We had to have monopolies of our utilities since money and greed have always been what this city is about. With an average of 162 days plus of moderate to heavy winds, Souther Nevada should have had some type of wind power generating system, but once again, no...of course not. We have monopolies with SoWest Gas, Nevada Power, now known as NV Energy, same smell, our Water District, sewer and trash! That pretty much covers it and we all pay, dearly, each year when they all raise their rates for whatever reason....and you know what??? WE HAVE NO CHOICE! I, for one, would have liked to see the author of this article give some kudos to those companies who plan to build! Give them some encouragement, let them know that So. Nevadans welcome renewable energy, a chance to tell the utility companies to take a proverbial hike, while at the same time, lowering all of our carbon footprints. No one ever said completely erase that footprint, but lowering it is a start. Finally!!! Some forward thinking companies willing to take a chance. Finally!! A way to just say no to $400 a month summer electric bills. Finally!!! Companies looking out for their bottomline profits YET also looking out for our planet....about fricking time, don't you think???? Hoo-rah!!!
When do we start to turn this World into the right direction ...
Look at this and you'll see what the hellfire looks like ...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36683314/ns/...
And you have that at the pump every day humiliating yourself, your soul and god !!!
And do not forget those who left their lives in Iraq!
If you speak german join me here: http://www.wallstreet-online.de/diskussi...
It must be possible to do the right thing and make money!
So solar is ruining our planet.
All these eons of sunlight and rain, growth and renewal are bringing about the early demise of our home.
I personally am not at all surprised to see the depths to which the oligarchy sinks.
Badmouthing sunlight and decency is to be expected from those whose greed has fed their lavish self-centered existence which is perilously close to its natural end.
I don't think they're going to be able to maintain their grip on consciousness, our wallets, the air, water and time much longer.
Many folks are realizing that power comes from sources other than the power company. Lotsa people see the history of lies, opportunism and deceit from those whom we trusted.
Great article. Very galvanizing. Treachery in the ethernet.
So it takes 6 400 megawatt solar plants to equal the particulate emissions of 1 400 megawatt natural gas plant?
Even if that were true, and I'm not sure that I believe it, where's the problem?
How many solar fields does it take to equal a coal fired plant?
Yes it is great that we are starting to build these "green" power plants, whether its wind, solar, or biomass but don't be fooled the power produced by these methods cost 30-50X that of fossil fuel plants. Even though our president and Mr. Reid say they won't raise power rates, they will! All of this "green" legislature is just going to raise power rates, A LOT.
So as much as you want to tell the power company to take a hike KELLAN88 just prepare yourself for even higher power bills and you can thank Mr. Reid for that.
Oh no...were doomed! Even the green energy is bad.
Why instead of building the solar park in the vast desert, let the all the Las Vegans get a piece of the pie. The Feds are building this we need jobs boy we need jobs. have them but solar panels on our roof tops wire them to our houses give us so much time of free solar time then the rest goes back to the grid. the home are happy and the Nevada power is happy but who care if the Feds are happy. at the hottest time of the year it would help out the poor and elderly, no more $300. $400. elc bills. think about it King Harry Reid this may just save your butt 2010.
So lv702, the cheaper fossil fuels were underpriced by ~40x. So, you say we should have paid monthly utility bills of 30 to 50 times what we paid.
And it's reid's fault. And it's reid's fault that some might seek a softer path.
sorry to bother you.
more energy goes into makin a PV cell than comes out of it ... in its lifetime.
are they smart investments, now that our energy supply is in the final stage of being gobbled up in fires and dumped (pumped!) into the sea?
and vegas lights up the night sky
your room is 72; it's 110 outside
drinks are ice-cold; babes are red hot
sellin what they stole and trashing paradise for cheap thrills
vegas
despite the discomfort of trying to read the all caps that seem to shout and do not allow a peaceful reading, the words of the wizard actually bare some truth.
Without the perspective of the squalor in which most folks on the planet currently dwell, our picture of commerce and transportation is 'perfumed!'
I.e. Indonesians have open sewers, with square corners! After a rain, guess what piles up and draws flies? Yep, some poor fellas in thong sandals and shorts with a shovel and a bag clean up!
The air is filled with two-stroke combustion products, smokin so thick you can't see and really DON'T want to breathe. Donkeys dump at will.
The people poop in open daylight right into the river where they wash clothes and get their water for tea.
Modernization means raping the forests. The people who once ate the fish now eat the bugs the fish ate when they were here.
It's kinda hard to imagine what you'll see if you take the advice of the wizard and see the way the rest of our fellow Eathlings are making it a life.
The only situation that would result in no impact on the Earth would be the elimination of the human race. Otherwise, it really is just a matter of time before we destroy the planet. EVERYTHING we do has a negative impact.
Not so Don Q.
Yes, the dams wiped out the June Hog Salmon. Yes the coal, oil and gas trashed the sky, melted the glaciers, inundated the coasts. Yes, we wiped out the ...
But we learned.
We came; we saw the problem; we made it worse.
We know.
I can't believe these plants are not emission free ? Can't they be made emission free ? Are they actually fossil fuel plants and we are greenwashed into believing that this is the way to go ? A compromised solar plant is better than none though. Solar Plants now !Solar plants everywhere!
a little NOX and carbon monoxide is better than a ruptured radioactive cask !
Please read SOLAR POWER GENERATION: BOON or BOONDOGGLE, at http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/... first, to get the right perspective.
I tells you in a nutshell that solar energy will always be a minuscule percentage of fossil-fueled energy. It will always be intermittent due to the inability to generate power at night, and therefore it will always require a fossil-fueled plant to generate power at night. And even during the day, it will only provide an extremely small fraction of the power that the fossil fuel power plant provides.
This article is another propaganda piece of the ObamaPower crowd. I get the idea that the ObamaPower crowd ultimately wants us to live ENERGY-FREE in thatched huts like those in in a Zulu Kraal. Then we could all be happy, dancing natives wearing loincloths, i.e. the "noble savages" described by 18th century French revolutionary Jean Jaques Rousseau, free of all air pollution.
Yes, but what of the air particulates emanating from the fermenting dung? And what about the air particulates emitting from the wood-fired or dung-fired cooking of the meat of endangered species? That wouldn't work either, would it?
Therefore the real solution of the ObamaPower crowd would appear to be the extermination of the human race, wouldn't it?
Perhaps the title of this article should be "New wave of solar plants have 83% lower emissions than similarly sized natural gas plants"
Uddeboda wrote:"Energy Revolution.............It makes one wonder just how much the fossil fuel industries are paying to have such an article written, which is just a fabrication of lies and scare mongering. Of course the fossil fuel industries are scared to death that solar power is coming on quick, they are worried about their profits, not worrying about their emissions, but then they never have worried about emissions."
I have talked to Stephanie, and she is not taking kickbacks from Big Oil. Typical "liberal" smear tactic. If Udd actually read the EIS documents that are out for these projects, he would see that there are air quality issues concerning not only carbon emissions, but dust. You don't have to be a climate change skeptic to understand the problems with CSP plants.
Solar Millennium will use tens of thousands of tons of Therminol, a highly flamable heat transfer fluid. When it burns, it releases greenhouse gases and also commonly leaks daily vapors. If it explodes, it will be a chemical fire the size of any oil rig fire. The town of Amargosa Valley does not have enough water in their whole fire department to handle that. Less than two miles from a school, no less! God help us if it gets in the water. Across the street from actual residents??
There are actually safe and efficient ways to use clean, renewable enrgy. Concentrated Thermal is not one of them.
SCHNORKEL
worms had it good. they wouldn't let that delicious dung go bad.
We goofed it all up, using their allure to nab the fish.
Now the worms, fish, buffalo, frogs and bees are history.
Just the keystone critters
All supported by the sun.
Well, as you know, we came along and saw and conquered.
Now all the power is purchased with taxed labor from the power companies, see.
We've done a 'master-slave' thing and taken out the middleman, us, in this case, in order to promulgate huge wealth at the top.
I sleep at night. I don't use power. My power bill was less than 6% of the average for 6 months. And I didn't SUFFER. I conserved, though.
Solar cooker, solar space heater, solar water heater.
Who needs a power company?
They've pulled the wool over the masses and lulled them into the vainglorious splendor of delusion.
This article makes absolutely no sense. Look at the types of marginal generation solar is going to *displace* - the dirtiest of peak natural gas (15-20% efficient once-through natural gas generation in CA and NV, for reference modern CCGT natural gas is 50-63% efficient depending on whether its dry- or wet-cooled technology). Efficiency has a direct relation to emissions - it takes 4.4x much more natural gas to generate 1MW at 15% than at 55%, burning less natural gas is less pollutants.
correction: therminol is just a heat transfer fluid used in a closed loop system - it is not burned in the process. It's used to heat water to generate steam to run a conventional steam turbine.
http://www.nrel.gov/learning/re_csp.html...
Natural gas boilers are very efficient these days. With pollution controls added the emissions are quite low. The author does not state if the boilers were uncontrolled or not. That makes a big difference in the emissions being quoted. Be honest. Include the relevant facts.
yes, we are looking at 30-40 times the price of energy.the price of a 40 watt solar panel at harbor freight (Chinese of course) is $200. that will light your 40 watt light bulb,well,during the day time anyway. Want to solar power your own house? That will run about $30,000-$40,000. the cheapest and cleanest power available is hydroelectric.If all you euphemistic dreamers who dream of solar,geothermal,etc.power without considering the cost need to wake up.Without Hoover Dam you wouldn't be here.But hey by prohibiting any more dams to be constructed you've saved the fish from extinction (which could be replaced by hatcheries) and some archeological digs (which were abandon by their residents for better pastures). Well, I guess the next cheapest power is atomic. But NOT IN MY BACK YARD!!!
No reno,
the facts have nothing to do with the intent of this article.
It's about smearing, slinging stew and malignment of science.
Well reelin,
93 miles is how close we are to the perfectly SAFE thermonuclear detonation (X10 to the 6th) that truly inspires, transpires and vampires(but only at night!).
If we'd stick a windmill on the power poles, then we wouldn't need a power plant at the end!
Enough sunlight falls between the bushes and the gutters to heat the house in winter, on the roof to heat the shower, enough on the ground to feed me and the dog. What the hell do people expect, somebody to take all the fun out of it?
And pay for the deprivation of challenge, of joy, of transformative lessons of matter and energy?!?!
"And do not forget those who left their lives in Iraq!"
It was only a matter of time before the climate crowd started to use the "climate change leads to terrorism" tactic. That's a Bush-ism! I guess he is helping you guys afterall!
Uddeboda said : "Therminol, hmmmmm, sounds like coal, oil and gas they also burn very vigourously and contaminate the atmosphere, but then of course you know that."
Yes, Therminol is dangerous and it is not green. It also emits greenhouse gases. Try looking it up. You seem to pride yourself as an expert on these issues. It is OK to question which green technology is actually green. Just because coal and oil pollute, does not make Therminol green. You seem to have an attitude of "Green good, oil bad", but you don't seem to informed on the problems with the fast track industrial technologies. It's OK to review the way we go green. Ever try thinking about it?
"correction: therminol is just a heat transfer fluid used in a closed loop system - it is not burned in the process. It's used to heat water to generate steam to run a conventional steam turbine."
No it is not burned, but if it does explode, (it flashes at 750 F) it can not be contained. it also leaks regularly. ead the Amargosa Farm Road EIS.
sunlizard,
what are you proposing? Something so preposterous as wise use of resources and a collector array at every household or some such populist approach that employs folks, saves transmission loss and does what we need with negligible carbon penalty?
how ya gonna bottle sense?
dear airweare
Still thinking euphemistically? What do you suppose a windmill on every power pole would cost? Oops! don't forget about the environmentalist who claim bird death, or loss of nesting or as in Palm Springs, "eye pollution."
Your right about heating the water on the roof. plenty of evidence of that in southern hemisphere homes, besides, it's cost effective.
But if you really want to be energy efficient and cost effective let's all move underground where the temperature stays 52degrees. Think of all the trees, plants,birds and bugs we'll save. Ready, or shall we keep on dreaming without considering the cost?
Ok reelin,
you got me on the power pole retrofit cost. Sorry. It's from some guy last century.
Earth-contact homes were the rush back in the day. Feller name a Wells got semi-famous touting the value of snuggling up to momma. A steady 52 or 55 or whatever 'bout there is waaay better than the slings and arrows of weather, eh?
Build 'em right and ventilate 'em and they're nice. I saw a Kansas home that once housed nukes! Warheads, that is. Aimed at the Ruskies. A MinuteMan missile on a farm went back to the farmer who was a framer and farted around til it was homey!
airweare,
It sure is hard when people don't want to think about it!
Ok Reelin,
In my experience, homes that went through 1000 gallons of oil in one heating season could be retrofitted for less than $5,000 and be comfy on 100 gallons.
Going underground is fine, but weatherization and good sense will get you there too!
Treating the house like a system has health and safety dividends too. They last longer when they don't pant so hard, but breathe right.
Add the significantly reduced utility cost to the improved value, longevity and noticebly improved comfort and voila, weatherization competes with worms!
It's so easy, it's so easy...comfort wraps 'em up.
Thoughts, why? I was doing fine in comfort. Don't bother me with thoughts.
I have to ask if a small geothermal power plant could be used to kick-start the solar power plants in the morning instead of natural gas.
Just for the record, it is Sun policy to not take anything, not even lunch, from anyone we might be reporting on.
So no, I'm not getting any "kickbacks" from the fossil fuel industry.
Just giving you another piece of the puzzle so you can have an informed decision about what's going on in your backyard.
Also, I did not include coal comparisons because natural gas plants are our primary source of electricity in Southern Nevada.
Very interesting story. Good Job LV Sun.
So we learn about reality.
Another aspect in the equation is the total cost to the environment of the project and the energy product. While final point source emissions are the focus of the story there are other facets to consider. For instance one would have to factor in the emissions at the supply source of the natural gas.
Also true emission numbers are difficult to ascertain for our natural gas powered plants. When I first came to Las Vegas I worked as an environmental scientist for a large national company that certified the emissions of the plants in our area. In the aquisition of data from these plants there is plenty of room for adjustment on testing day.
The emission numbers for these solar plants sound like large amounts but are not. A side by side comparison of these amounts of CO and CO2 relative to the automobile emissions in the Las Vegas Valley would show how small they truly are.
How about a nice big old nuke energy plant outside of Boulder City? That should take care of everything right?
My own preference is for nuclear, geo-thermal and solar. Ideally, being a science-fiction fan, I want to see some way of collecting solar in space and then beaming it down (Tesla coils, anyone?). But until that is possible, My first choice is nuclear.
My understanding is that Nevada doesn't have any good sites for nuclear due to the cooling problems. And I'm not aware of Nevada being big on geo-thermal resources. That leaves solar as the only real option. Is there any way of harnessing an inertial system to store energy for use when the sun isn't shining?
Another pie-in the sky idea. Use solar (photo-voltaics) to produce hydrogen for use in fuel cells to run generators. Produce more hydrogen than you need immediately as a reserve for dark hours. Overall efficiency might suck at first, but cost of operation should be damn nil zilch compared to other means.
No one ever wants to admit the costs to manufacture the panels either. The energy, materials and toxic plastics and resins that go into photovoltaic panels is not offset by the energy they create. It just makes people feel good because they look so clean. And lets also not mention the 10-20% of energy lost when the power is transfered over power lines that cost far to much, break and are ugly to boot. Nor the fact that because the utilities want to make a profit they mark up the cost of the power.
I am a huge solar fan and have studied it for many years now and have installed solar and thermal panels on several of my homes.
The best solution is for people to put them on their own homes. Less is required and none of the power is lost to transmission. Despite what some would like to believe the entire green movement and green energy is based in the interests of big, very big business. And our administration and it's allies are steeped in it to make personal profits for themselves and their buddies. People like to pretend that only republicans are in it for the money. That's simply a foolish lie.
I'm not saying solar is bad, only the implementation that's all about making giant companies bigger and moving the energy wealth from one area to another. But it has nothing to do with making life better for us, it's about making the liberal rich richer and more powerful. Thats okay too, it's how the game is played. But stop lying or pretending that only republican scum are getting rich and taking advantage of us at our expense, both sides do the exact same thing, both are driven by green and power, they just have different ways of stuffing it down our throats. Liberals guilt you into it and make you think you're doing something good while just moving it around so you don't see it as much.
Want to save the planet? Get solar and wind on your house, demand that zoning is changed so people own and generate their own power at a much lower cost to the environment while creating much more power than we actually need. The excess can go to the poor and lazy you feel so guilty about.
Best thing to do is completely abandon Vegas.
Look at all the energy we'll save by not heating and cooling all those mega-resorts and stucco mini-mansions. And the Water. And think how much cleaner the air will be without all those flights and cars around.
EnergyRevolution
******************
You are so right~!!!! There is always someone negative bashing a good idea. That's why it took so long to finally start this solar plant plans.
People, love Vegas as much as we all do, and hope for growth and
prosperity for everyone in Vegas :) Don't be negative please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
seriously though...
Fossil fuels arent cheap. They have a huge environmental cost and as they run out you will start seeing there true cost. We are just too stupid to tax them enough to promote conservation and efficiency.
This had to be the dumbest story I ever read. Give me a break...
There are many reasons for us to be optimistic for our future here in Nevada. There is effort being put into many good ideas. Technology is changing but prior to technology comes science and there are some amazing things happening in the scientific world. One good place to visit on line and have a look at your tax money in action is Americas National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in Golden, Colorado.Just down the road from the Coors brewery this is a national treasure of eggheads and geeks working on solutions that will change our lives mabey even more than beer.
The great technology described in the nice article above has been around a long time. The science behind it is old enough to be carbon dated. The fact that it is just now on the drawing board for Nevada is telling of our our priorities as a people.
The reason the anxiety exists, in my humble opinion, is our tendancy to follow the world of politics and ignore the world of science. Instead of surfing the next wave of the next political tidbit take a moment and have a look at NREL. I gaurantee you that by looking at it you will know something that our political leaders in Nevada will never bother to view. Considering the stranglehold that Nevada Power has on our wallets and options we need to seek change.
CARBONWARE-
"And lets also not mention the 10-20% of energy lost when the power is transfered over power lines..."
Last time I read about loss of energy over distance the number was a bit higher than 10-20%. I would also suspect that the energy transmission loss-percentage RISES as the distance over which energy is transmitted INCREASES. IF correct, this would reduce the extent of effective transmission range.
So at what point does it become unusable, inefficient, or "non-productive"?
Further, whatever the percentage is, doesn't that make Solar Power somewhat equal in comparison to gas-fired energy plants? If so, what is the real benefit of concentrating on Solar Plants?
And since valid questions concerning efficiency, greenhouse emissions, and air-quality safety are stated herein, WHY are there "60" Solar Plants "SLATED" for construction BEFORE such important issues are resolved - especially by the EPA?
I would also question the business sense of applying for a license, or the State approving Plant designs, for something that may have to be re-designed - or never allowed. And who will pay for the added cost?
Finally, the SW can never be the future origination and distribution point to transmit energy to very many far-away states. But if we DO build all these "60" Solar Plants here in Nevada - and more, per the Administration's wishes - we will wind up with a "SCRAP-YARD" full of huge Solar Panels. And example is what was done with windmills in Palm Springs, CA.
That "SCRAP-YARD" scenario is what has happened to the, now cluttered, Strip. Do we want more clutter - just of a different variety; just because it's Federal Land, and happens to be in the desert?
I think CARBONWARE's idea is a good one: "The best solution is for people to put them on their own homes."
Some thoughts to think about...
I agree that the best solution is for the end users to generate their own power. Perhaps the invention of a photovoltaic roofing tile will do this oneday. I think it would be attractive to the homebuyer to know that a home, or the master planned community will have the capacity to make most of its own electricity.
bradgore is pointing right. Solar's single strength is its universality, free delivery and potential applications on-site, as in, no meter between you and the source, so to speak.
The only obstacle is practicality and inventions like the roof tiles mentioned.
Handing this source to the power companies to treat it like all the others with the same model( central production, distribution and METER) does an injustice to those of us out here that find that grab an insult and outrage, considering our plight - caught between a rock and a carbon sky.
Simple solar air heaters do most of the heating; simple solar water heaters do most of the DHW. Refrigerators have improved efficiency so much in ten years that running an old one costs you big time. (read: cash-for-ice-boxes!)
A sustainable path is within reach and appropriately beyond grasp.
An ephemeral energy base requires a slightly different approach to whole-system integration, unlike any other power source that we can readily apply 24/7.
Ephemeral energy requires an attitude adjustment before you go far. It suggests that the relationship between power source and power user become less one-sided. Give a little, take a little.
Ephemeral energy is more like we are than the fossils we are accustomed to. We sleep, have our weather moments and keep up a rhythm that mirrors the sun, and adapts to seasons.
Oh and it's free. Did I mention that the only thing between you and freedom is the old way we think of our use of power as something we had to pay for instead of figuring out how to catch ourself.
We're here a while, then gone. What's not to love about ephemeral energy? It's our sister species in the energy resources world.
Of course there are always side effects of energy source switching.
Besides the improvement in Science, Math, Social Studies, etc, the kids will be living in cleaner air, with more clean water. Our consciousness of this paradise, the gift of humility and freedom from control by foreign powers with resources we longer depend on will start the parade of 'side effects' known as energy independence.
Ugly, huh?
Sorry Stephanie I believe this piece was tainted by your corporate manipulative overseers. It contains the seeds of futilty and despair in an important endeavor which will require inspiring transformation.
Um, Stephanie, to dismiss coal-fired power in Las Vegas is INCORRECT. Don't forget the 4 large coal-fired boilers at the 650 MW Reid Gardner power station right outside of Moapa. This COAL-FIRED power station has been supplying power to the Las Vegas area for over 30 years.
The Greenies are bashing this type of energy production because it is probably not one of Al Gore's companies that they invested in.
I'm sorry, STEPHANIE TAVARES (author) but your article is both INTELLECTUALY and JOURNALISTICALLY DISHONEST !!! Your headline borders on being a BLATANT LIE ! You own figures state that each solar plant will decrease pollution by 80-90%, yet your headline screams "SOLAR PLANTS COULD WORSEN AIR QUALITY". Sure, if 10 or 12 new solar plants come online there will be a SMALL increase in pollution to start them in the morning, but we will receive 10 times the power... and CLEAN power the rest of the day. Your blatantly MISLEADING headline smacks of CORPORATE CRONYISM....
airweare: There are in fact a lot of solar "Roof Tiles" being sold currently. I have not come across a southwestern type yet but it may be out there. Not sure of the cost but they look pretty good. It would appear that the market and investment for this type of end user solar energy is about to explode. What we need as a community are good examples and cost analysis of this type of solar. Almost a hundred years after science discovers the photoelectric effect we may soon reap the rewards. What the politicians need to do is provide incentives and motivation to the end user and give them priority over the utilities.See http://hubpages.com/hub/SolarPowerShingl...
Interesting. The LV Sun reports that green solar energy isn't perfect, and the pro-renewable energy types can't handle the truth.
BTW, what power supply emits zero carbon gases? Could it be NUCLEAR POWER? Yes, it is. But why will Nevada not embrace the cleanest form of renewable energy on earth? Again, the leftist liberal wackos don't really want clean or cheap energy, they want to control our lifestyle and increase energy costs until it is unaffordable thus requiring huge societal changes to meet their utopia vision.
Davelv: Very emotional argument you have. From a logical point of view the type of solar power depicted in the article is not the clean type. The clean type is photovoltaic which has zero emisions and is a direct transfer of photon energy to electron ptential. Wind power also has essentialy zero emissions.
Yes nuclear energy is a great option.Our president has stated this as a part of our future. It has nothing to do with the emotional world of politics and slandering your fellow citizens. It has do do with the future of science and energy in America. The notion that environmental types oppose nuclear power is an emotional argument wich serves no purpose. You may want to check out Bill Gates lecture at this years TED talks on-line. Here Mr. Gates combines green logic with the new generation of nuclear power and his new company Terra Power to make it happen. You may want to look at some scientific web sites and learn about the lack of logic in your emotional us vs. them arguments. The fringe elements of both the far right and the far left serve no logical purpose for mainstream America.
We have heard the emotions ad-nauseum over and over to the diminishing return towards zero.
Brad, how viable would a solar-hydrogen hybrid power plant be? That is, use solar to crack hydrogen which then is used in fuel-cells to power generators. I believe that approach would address the issue of sunlight not being available 24/7 (at least here on Earth).
I think the cost of PV is coming down steadily, but what about the cost of cracking hydrogen for fuel-cells? Given the interest in using fuel-cells for small vehicle transportation, can it be adapted to industrial/community scale at a reasonable cost in a realistic time-frame?
boftx: There is a pilot plant on line in Spain, Hydrosol-2, doing just this. since 2008. It is a solar powered focus facility to achieve molecular dissociation of water to hydrogen. I looked at the chemistry sites and some DOE links and of note was a claimed efficiency of 11.2 % recovery of hydrogen from water with high temperature dissociation. Running this into a fuel cell recovered 50% of the water. Those are very nice numbers.
The cost is still high due to the temperture needed to split water. However there are some really neat ideas in the realm of catalysis to drop this required temperature. Lots with metals but I believe the real adventure is the biological approach. Enzymes have always been splitting and making water in living creatures at pretty low temperatures. Enzymes also have very fast catalytic ability.
I think the future here is pretty amazing as element number 1 on the periodic table with its love affair for oxygen and its burning desire is exploited.
I have always said that if I can think of it, chances are someone else has done it in some way. :) I was thinking more along the lines of using electrical output from PV to do the worki of cracking hydrogen, but this meets my criteria.
The true beauty of this is that the only emissions would be steam, which of course would eventually re-enter the water cycle. The efficency really doesn't matter as the true energy source, solar, is unlimited and free. To me that means the limiting factor would be cost of construction. I would think cost of operation would be minimal, mainly keeping the solar panels (whatever they are) clean and normal maintenence on any moving parts.
There are probably safety issues involved with the storage/handling of large quantities of hydrogen, but we have made progress since the time of the Hindenburg and they should be trivial engineering details.
Thanks for the feedback.
Boftx: Know what you mean. Also there are groups looking into electrolytic hydrogen splitting and not just from water.
But you are most correct in your motivation. Is it not almost a tired punch line that we live in Nevada with our solar flux ruling our behavior instead of the opposite. The utility company getting rich from the sun pushing our air conditioners instead of our air conditioners running off of the sun.
Yes solar hydrogen technology from water and fuel cells we can do. We could do. We will first do some brute force approaches as above. But then, and I am certain, things will get elegant.
Now we see a different river. When the first engineers looked at the Colorado it was easy to see the potential to light up our city. It was obvious. So now we see the solar ablated vast landscape before us and think the same thing. It is the definition of obvious.
After reading a few articles from a Google search based on what you said earlier it is clear that whoever can deliver this technology first on a economical basis (within whatever economical framework it adheres to) will have a devastating advantage over everyone else.
I think that trying to use catalysis directly as a source of fuel in transportation will have problems with energy density (I'm referring to the "pellet" approach), but for large scale use in power plants designed to be used at the industrial park/residential track level it should be promising.
Let me throw a real curve ball at you, based on your comments about proteins. Suppose we can learn to use solar energy in a fashion simialr that of photo-synthesis that produces oxygen as a byproduct. Would that mean we would have to deliberately find ways of producing CO2 to prevent having too much oxygen in the atmosphere? If so, we might have to make it mandatory for everyone to have a wood-fired BBQ and use it at least once a week. :) All joking aside, that is the area of research I think we should be looking into. It could literally eliminate arguments about global warming overnite.
Boftx: Mabey. Good scotch topic. At 21% thats going to be a tough number to change where CO2 is sensitive at tiny numbers. Several orders of magnitude. I think the oceans would appreciate the extra O2 via. Henry's Law. I know if it went to 22 or 23% it would be like a free oxygen bar for all the smokers. Cool thing about biological systems is they seek equilibrium based on sensing feedback. One of the most remarkable pieces of solar engineering is no doubt the chloroplast and its photon snagging magnesium trampolines. But so overlooked as the other epitomy of solar technology is the stomata with its sensory wisdom and propensity for the night.
And I will not even go near global warming here without scotch!
Damn you, Brad!!!!!
Now I have to do another hour of research to keep up with or refresh my memory of the details you just presented. :)
Ok, it will take more than an hour to look up the information I want. The last time I dealt with how chloroplast worked it was still considered black magic. But I'll say this, I have a whole new perspective on Mg besides it being a superp material for various pranks.
There is no free lunch. There is fuel cell technology that uses water and the by products are hydrogen and oxygen but the government says hydrogen is much to dangerous. Remember the Hindenburg?
We and our children would be better off with a solar plant bubble than a Real Estate bubble !!!
This entire framework of 'Power from the utility company' has GOT to stop!
Power flows. We catch and apply. Why do you want to METER it when it's free?
Incredibly simple solar air heaters heat homes for free!
Incredibly simple (NO moving parts!) solar water heaters heat your shower for FREE!
Methinks, when I follow the $$ trail, the writer and framer of this article must be a corporate voice, not one who sees the benefit for us before the buck for them.
No need to see malice here, one has only to look at the story on the home page that won't allow comments and then remember that the writer doesn't create the headline for a story.
Malice? What in the greedy profiteers?
The pirates of the prairie?
The pumpers and dumpers of carbon for cash?
Of those like Rockefeller who take oil from the ground and sell it Hitler to kill Americans, for huge profits?
How could one ever think anybody could ever dream of imputing malice to the corporate greed that wasted the air, the shores, the tropical rain forests, the homeland, and at this second is PUMPING oil into the sea in the caribean making landfall on three states by daybreak and three more by the weekend?
While hosing, fleecing and beggaring the middle class, forcing food prices up and sending out dividend checks the size of watermelons to stock holders.
Dividends that large? I gotta buy stock tomorrow.
On a more serious note, I'm starting to wonder about the PLAN initiative. When I first about it I was inclined to go with it because the sweetheart deal the mining companies have is not fair to the rest of us taxpayers.
However, now that I've heard it also appears to target geo-theraml plants I have to take a 2nd look at it in more detail. I honestly didn't know Nevada had reasonable geo-thermo resources.
You might want to look into it yourself. I know you want to be off the grid as much as possible, but this should pique your curiosity.
Where in the world could any sane person, boftx, come up with malice in their vision of this perrenial planet rape?
Northern Nevada has serious geothermal resources. What would you do if you had all the 300 degree water you could pump?
Gerlach is about 8 miles away. There are several already flowing and lots of heat near momma's surface.
Plus it's the HIGH desert, up off the sea about .8 mile. So the light is way better than southern Nevada's, and the winds are notorious. Lotsa kids named Mariah or Myriah.
It's an ephemeral energy guy's dream come true. Nobody around like a moonscape. Not even Joshua trees like you southern folks get. Just salty sand and scattered sagebrush begging the sky just maybe a little break, a cloud or a dew drop before dawn.
And down below a ways, there's this super-heated source of boilin potential to balance the sun.
Ooops, Gerlach is 14 miles; Empire is 9.
Empire is the last 'company owned town' in America!
Work for the company and you get cheap housing ($125/mo for 2 bdrm) with free water, sewer, cable, phone, etc.
I'm not big on wind, it is an eyesore in my opinion. The Banning pass has been devastated by it. I like nuclear, geothermal and solar.
boftx, you're like the birds and the geese and ducks. You don't like the windmills.
I see 'em as little spinning monuments to ephemeral energy, slurping some nectar from the wind, the flower of earth's air and sun's heat. Like graceful mechanical swans. They remind me of the rainbow after Noah heard the word and herded the critters to wait out the raging wrath, or the flag 'still there' in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
I'd personally rather see the birds than these 'Swans' too, but I still prefer them over the nukies for security reasons. And that old camper thing of leavin the site cleaner than ya found it.
I bonded with Zephyrus and Mariah as a windsurfer. For a couple of decades we'd fly across the waves and spray to splay and play til sundown and the breeze went away.