Facebook
Fark
Digg
Reddit
Stumble
Sam Morris / Las Vegas Sun
Candles are placed in the gravel Tuesday during a candlelight vigil for Erik Scott. Scott was killed outside a Summerlin Costco by Metro last month.
By Kyle B. Hansen (contact) 
Wednesday, Aug. 11, 2010 | 12:38 a.m.
Sun archives
Tina and Steven Botwick didn’t know Erik Scott, but they joined more than 100 other people outside a Costco store in Summerlin on Tuesday night to mark the one-month anniversary of Scott’s death.
“I’ve followed a lot of the story, and my heart just goes out to his family and friends,” Tina Botwick said. “We just needed to come and support them.”
Scott was killed July 10 by Metro Police officers called to the store. Police said Scott was destroying merchandise and pointed a gun at officers, but his friends and family question Metro’s version of what happened.
“Just like everyone else here, we just want to know the truth and get answers,” Tina Botwick said.
A coroner’s inquest to determine if the police shooting was justified was initially scheduled for Sept. 3 but was later postponed indefinitely.
Metro officials have said they will wait to release the 911 recordings and any video surveillance of the event until after the inquest.
But many of Scott’s friends want the police department to be more forthcoming with evidence.
“People are frustrated,” said Anthony Bonifazio, who knew Scott for 11 years and spoke at the vigil. “It’s been 30 days and we know no more now than we did July 10.”
“No more speculation or passing blame, let’s just get the truth,” he said.
Those at the vigil didn’t express anger at Metro or blame the officers involved but said they hope the incident leads to better training and possibly a new way to investigate police shootings.
“I would like to trust the police department, but there’s too many questions. I don’t like it,” Steven Botwick said. “Especially in the last year, there have been so many questionable incidents, and they seem to be happening more frequently.”
Benno Kaiser drove to Summerlin for the vigil from his home in Henderson.
“I don’t want the coroner’s inquest to be a whitewash. The more people we have here, the more attention it will get,” he said. “There needs to be a fair investigation.”
During a surfing competition in Huntington Beach, Calif., a plane tows a banner questioning the shooting death of Erik Scott by Metro Police in Las Vegas. Family and friends of Scott raised money for the banner and for billboards to keep attention focused on the case.
Scott’s family and friends have worked to keep attention focused on the case, setting up a website and Facebook page and taking donations that have been used for billboards in Las Vegas and for a plane to tow a banner over the U.S. Open of Surfing in California.
The banner read: “Vegas police cover up? R.I.P. Erik B Scott.com.”
Steven Schneiter, one of Scott’s coworkers, brought his extended family to the vigil.
“It’s been a very surreal experience — the fact that he was here one day and then gone the next,” he said.
Schneiter said he hopes Scott’s death will lead to better training for police officers, and he was impressed with the turnout at the vigil.
“It’s nice to know that the memory of Erik Scott is still alive,” he said. “It’s become very much a viral thread, and his voice continues to be heard.”
More power to Team Scott -- the truth seekers.
=====
Beware: GESTAPO 9-1-1.
"A coroner's inquest to determine if the police shooting was justified"..."IF"...34 years and no unjustified shootings? Come on? If there was a betting line on the outcome of the verdict, you would be insane to bet against the police officers in this process.
This coroner's inquest system work in favor of the police. I'm sure these officers will say "we feared for our lives". That seems to be the freedom ticket.
This story is getting coverage in SOCAL. Not good for tourism and the retirement business of Vegas. No one wonder people don't want to come here, trigger happy cops are not good for business. What about the guy on Bonanza that "had an extensive criminal record" that got shot? Oh, we made that up didn't we?
I've talked to a number of people that were going to retire here and changed their mind because of the nasty Metro encounters they had. Quick get out the ninja suited swat team to raid the girls in their bras and panties...
The police always tell the truth. Don't you remember the "arrested drunk driver" that collided with the speeding cop that turned out not be drunk?
Oh, you're just a cop hater...the lights were on, I mean the emergency equipment, I mean, oh, well whatever, I'm Metro and the taxpayers will pay for it, if I do something wrong, now let's raise taxes so I can get a raise...overtime time
If we're not careful, Metro people will quit and open phony process serving businesses..
It's been a month. By this point in time, Sheriff Gillespie must be aware of whether or not the videotape he says is corrupted can be viewed by the lab that Metro paid to recover the images. If nothing has been recovered by the lab that Metro is paying, the hard drive should be turned over to the FBI.
Why an indefinite delay in the Inquest Jury hearing about Eric Scott? This is beginning to smell more and more like some kind of coverup by Metro and the D.A.'s office. This is obviously something that Metro is having a problem explaining fully. The longer the delay the more the public begins to doubt the investigation process.
Eric Scott's family and friends will not let this die out of the headlines. Metro's feet will be held to the fire and those involved are going to be held accountable. I don't remember another similar case that was delayed indefinetly for unexplained reasons. Something is not right about this...
This is standard operating procedure for Metro's handling of officer shootings.
1. Concoct a story for public consumption and feed it to the media.
2. Attempt to stop all other discussion by withholding evidence and discouraging public discourse before the inquest.
3. Delay the inquest if more time is required to concoct above story or if an election is imminent.
4. Buddy up with prosecutor at inquest and allow no questions which may conflict with the Metro "official" version.
5. After inquest, retire to back room, light cigars and pat each other on the back for another job well done.
Nice to see the Metro haters out in full force. It's called due process. It's easier to jump to delusions than wait for the truth.
You are doing everything you accuse Metro of doing.
Mred, seriously, get some help before the UN declares you unfit. I know you worship the UN so I thought I'd go there.
Not that I favor metro or the DA in any way whatsoever,, as I never will,, But these are the clowns that you voted into office so you get what you voted for...
getalife...
You're gonna to be in the minority on this one.
I respect your right to opine, sir.
However, the facts ALREADY KNOWN indicate this is a MAJOR SNAFU for Metro's boys, and their "up for re-election" Sheriff Doug.
Metro has had MORE THAN AMPLE TIME to "glean the facts", such as they are, and make a public statement indicating SOMETHING... something BESIDES "It's an ongoing investigation".
"Cop Haters"???
Absolute, unequivocal, horse manure.
MOST people are NOT INCLINED to distrust Metro out of hand...they've EARNED THAT.
No one respects the ugly job the boys in blue do in a city like Las Vegas, or ANY metropolitan area more than I. Divorce, suicide, a statistically MUCH shorter life span; Hey, it's tough out there, I GET THAT.
But, you cannot have this kind of ongoing KEYSTONE COP, MAYBERRY RFD, 3 Stooges stuff happening with such ALARMING FREQUENCY and still retain the TRUST OF THOSE YOU SERVE.
C'mon, man.
getaclue, dude.
It's time for an OUTSIDE AGENCY to come in here and take a look around.
I've never heard of a Law Enforcement Agency that DOES NOT TURN OVER TO ANOTHER L.E.A. "internal investigations" such as these... it offers a semblance of IMPARTIALITY to the proceedings, sir.
And it adds an element of CREDIBILITY that the public deserves.
PROTECT & SERVE.
You get it???
Great post gmag39.
We don't hate cops. We hate liars that are paid to protect and serve that don't do their jobs and kill people that end up in lawsuits and cost us tax dollars that should be going towards education.
@getalife. What about the due process rights of Erik Scott, Trevon Cole, and all of the others who have not had voices to speak for them? When does their side of the story get to be told? At the Coroner's Inquest, NOT!!!! Release the video, release the 911 tapes. If the video has been tampered with, that is obstrucation of justice and needs to be prosecuted.
Not to sound unsympathetic but a crazy guy running around Costco with a gun should get shot.
Here's what I love about all the complainers on here. You complain about a coroners inquest and that the cops will not be found guilty but WE are the people who decide if they are guilty. So if WE are who say it was justified then all of YOU have NOTHING more to complain about! Your peers are the people to decide it. And GMag, there is nothing ALREADY KNOWN that is pure fact. There is stuff that you THINK is known. Unless you were standing near the police or Scott then you really don't know. You and your group are going to listen to the group that says Eric did nothing wrong because he was a West Point grad and a military grad. Then there is the group that said he pulled a gun and had lost a few marbles. So it is about 50/50. But you people really think that Las Vegas is the only place this happens? You only think it is because you don't hear the news of other local cities.
On a side note, all the tough guys that wanted to "prove a point" by bringing their weapons to the vigil last night, get real! There was no purpose for that
By the way, I hope everyone cleaned up their mess on private property last night.
@getalife, the problem is that due process isn't provided under the current inquest system, so it is difficult to "wait for the truth" when the "truth" is the "truth" presented by a government agency that investigates itself and whose resulted can't be questioned at the inquest.
The current inquest process is eerily similar to the inquisitorial process used in the former Soviet Union in terms of its' structure, role of the prosecution, investigation, role of the defense, etc. In the USSR, police agencies would investigate themselves. Investigation findings would be turned over to the local prosecutor. A hearing would be convened. A judge (in Vegas, the "special master") controlled the questioning of the witnesses. Families were encouraged to respect the "process". Because the government had the best interests of the people in mind during such hearings, there was no need to introduce an adversarial element to the hearings. Sound familiar?
This type of process only works if everyone in government is honest as is supposed under utopian communism. James Madison said in Federalist 51, "If men were honest, no government would be necessary." Likewise, the adversarial process would not be necessary if all those in government were honest. Unfortunately, common sense and history tells us otherwise.
@Vegasguy. The problem with the Inquest is that only one side of the story is presented. Metro does the investigation, gives the results of that investigation to the DA who presents it to the jury. The family is not represented, can't cross examine witnesses or prevent rebutal witnesses. How fair is that? A month ago, an Oakland police officer was conviced on manslaugher for killing a suspect.
@kuntakente. "Cockroach"? Let's see West Point graduate, MBA from Duke, 6 figure income. If that is a "cockroach" then I think we would have lots of people signing up.
Great post gmag39!! Both my hubby and son are licensed to carry. We go to Costco frequently. Should his shirt creep up and someone sees a gun, can I expect everyone to freak out, overreact and shoot them? It has been the WILD WILD WEST here in Vegas for a long time and unless and until Gillespie (another good old boy) gets replaced, it will be business as usual, "center mass" for LVMPD. These babies they're hiring haven't got the common sense of a gnat and obviously their trigger fingers are just itching to be used! It's time to REPLACE GILLESPIE, get some major policy changes at Metro and force accountability instead of media moments for Gillespie. Everyone complains, but when it comes time to vote, he wins. If you want change - vote the SOB out!! Then he can get on to his next job at Stations as Head of Security!
oh yeah, i forgot about this whole thing. When did it all happen again? where was it?
Borris from Germany
All of these questions could be answered, *IF* Metro would be forthright and release the surveillance videos.
But no, *THESE* particular videos have somehow come up "unreadable".
Do any of the boot lickers here actually believe this? Then I have a bridge to sell you.
Some interesting toxicology results are going to change the way a lot of people see this event, as will the recorded surveillance, most likely.
This event aside, the problem is the process is flawed, regardless of how this, or the Trevon Cole inquest, unfolds. It casts a shadow on Metro vis a vis the public trust. Real leadership in law enforcement would consult with other agnencies to develop a process that would restore some faith while ensuring a thorough investigation and impartial hearing that presents ALL of the facts.
The public should be prepared for an attempt at placation in a forced finding negative to the officers in either event. It would be like a new parade for the Emperor after a quick body-paint job.
From what I can tell, the only people left defending Metro...are well, those with ties to Metro.
The charge that people criticizing Metro are "cop haters" is ridiculous. Look at the pictures from the vigil. There are senior citizens in golf shirts and khakis, little kids, women in dresses, black people, white people, latinos, middle-aged people, young adults, conservative gun owners and liberal civil rights activists, military veterans, etc. It's probably the broadest and most diverse gathering of the community that has been seen in quite some time for such an event.
More than 1,000 supporters are already signed up on the Facebook page for Erik Scott and the number continues to grow each day that Metro and the DA delay the inquest.
Some of those most critical of Metro's actions in the Scott case have professional military and/or law enforcement experience ourselves.
Those individuals that are used to dismissing any criticism of Metro as coming from "cop haters" need to get a reality check.
From what I've read, the cops thought that they were dealing with a irrational, violent, possible strung out man who was armed .......... where did they get that idea? I'd like to know what the Coscto employees were telling the police.
Chunky says:
I don't trust the cops personally. BUT... if the man had a gun and even remotely pointed it at me, others or the cops I'd do the same exact thing. There's a milli-second between win or lose in these situations.
The mere act of anyone handling a gun and acting out in a public space escalates the tension and uncertainty for the responding officers. As a CCW holder, the man should have known better. If he needed help or counseling the aisles of Costco are not the place to seek or expect to receive it while you have a gun in your hand.
Again, Chunky is no fan of the cops but they are not the ones that started the chain of events that led to this shooting.
That's what Chunky thinks!
Still waiting for why the golfer died in Henderson....
The two local talk radio talk show hosts, Heidi Harris and Alan Stock are essentially shills for local law enforcement, working overtime to prop them up on every incident. They both made fools of themselves on the Darling/Manor crash, when they slandered Mr. Darling by falsly implying on the air that he was intoxicated instead of waiting for the investigation. They never have asked Gilessppee one tough question about anything.
We have kuntalente calling the "West Point Grad" a cockroach...must be a Metro officer...they always vent with glee when they kill someone.
Why was this guy acting irrationally in the store? If the policy in the store is no guns and an employee sees you with and asks you to leave...YOU LEAVE. Period.
You don't start getting mouthy, you don't throw merchandise around and you don't argue. This is the policy. Leave. It's not hard to figure out. What brought this employee to call 911 in the first place. Let's start there.
Beyond that, I'll wait for the full report/video to make a final determination as to what happened. Everything else is speculation. Too many conflicting witness statements. If there is a video...it should shed some light on what happened
@TomD1288: eyewitnesses in the store contradicted the police statement that Scott was acting irrationally. It appears that Scott was approached by a Costco employee and was told that weapons weren't allowed in the store. Scott apparently told the employee that he had a CCW permit. We don't know whether Scott assumed that his response answered the employee's concerns or not. There is also no evidence that Scott was throwing merchandise around as you allege and we don't know whether the Costco employee ever asked Scott to leave the store.
Weapons weren't allowed in the store....it really doesn't matter if Scott had a CCW. He was told no weapons in the store. Once again, let's see how it plays out. I'm skeptical that Scott was asked to leave and he politely told the employee he had a CCW. then was asked to leave regardless and Scott politely left and was shot point blank as he casually left the store. Is this the story?
No mouthing off?
No acting irrational?
No throwing merchandise in the store?
Followed any police orders instantly?
If that is your argument and he was shot regardless...you've got a case
Vegasguy:
A) you think WE get picked to sit for the Coroner's Inquest? yeah right.
B) if you don't realize the signficance of people wearing firearms to the vigil, you really are more dense than you let on.
One witness said he heard police say "stop, I told you to stop"
Another heard "drop it"
Another heard "get down", "put it down" or " get out of the way"
Another said he saw Scott pull up his shirt and turn toward officers
Can we draw any conclusions?....maybe, maybe not.
All I can offer is never, ever not heed the command of a cop. Cop says stop...you stop. Cop says hands up...you put your hands up. No talk, no argument, no "I have a CCW"...
What may have happened is that Erik was pissed off about the employees actions and left the store in a huff. Still, you follow cop commands to a T. I don't think Erik drew his weapon, but he might have acted in a manner that gave cops pause for their safety. Lifting your shirt when not directed to is not a good idea when cops think you might have a gun.
@TomD1288: If you believe the eyewitnesses, Scott was not "acting irrationally or "throwing merchandise in the store". And yes, eyewitnesses heard officers give contradictory commands to Scott, to include one command to disarm which Scott appeared to be trying to follow. Strangely, not a single eyewitness heard the police give Scott the most obvious command: to put his hands up.
As to your question about "mouthing off", an eyewitness said that the exchange between Scott and the Costco employee was in an "elevated tone". But the law doesn't allow police to ignore standard operating procedures and shoot someone for disagreeing with a Costco employee.
However, there are laws on the book to punish those that would file a false police report to "teach" someone a lesson or to get a faster police response time.
Again, all of this can be quickly settled. Show the videos!!!!!!!!!!! Release the 911 calls, or was it just one call? If he was acting crazy, and running around destroying stuff and waving a gun, I would assume that 911 would be ringing off the hook. Sheriff, take the heat off, show us your officers acted correctly, release the tapes and the 911 calls. If the tapes have been intentionally damaged file charges against the person or persons responsible for tampering with evidence. This will not go away until the tapes are released. Show some leadership.
One of the great freedoms in this country is to be able to carry a gun. With that goes the responsibility that if Costco does not allow guns in their stores...you leave. Getting into an elevated argument with a small time employee over your gun is not smart. Leave and take it up with management at another time when you've cooled off. I simply can't fathom why someone would just concoct a story about the store merchandise being thrown around or trashed when it never happened.
Again, the words "stop, I told you to stop" tells me Erik may have not listened to the first order to stop. I'm not disputing he tried to disarm...I just get the feeling that Erik was pissed off about what happened which may have led to him being not fully compliant with officers commands. Were there conflicting commands?...could be.
As I said. If Erik just left peacefully after being told no guns allowed this probably would have never happened. I'm not supporting or denying either sides claims...
Its a tragic occurrence and a man lost his life.
My sincere thanks to every Las Vegas-area resident who attended the Candlelight Vigil last night to honor my son, Erik Scott. I also thank the many, many courageous eyewitnesses and "persons of knowledge" who have come forward to tell us their story. Your contributions are invaluable to helping us extract the truth related to my son's horrific killing.
Las Vegas residents, it's up to you to clean up Metro and your city. My son gave his life; please, return the favor with your votes and your continued support for truth and justice.
...and to kuntakente: My son was not a "cockroach." Please reserve the irrational vitriol for those more deserving of it.
@TomD1288: "I simply can't fathom why someone would just concoct a story about the store merchandise being thrown around or trashed when it never happened." There are several reasons this might have happened. If the Costco employee told 911 that there was someone carrying a gun on the property that had identified themselves as having a CCW permit and wasn't creating a disturbance, the police might not have come, particularly if there was no signage prohibiting firearms at the door. They definitely wouldn't have come as quickly. There is also the possibility that the Costco employee thought they would "stick" it to Scott or that the person.
Regardless, not a single eyewitness has accused Scott of acting erratically. Thus far, it appears that only one 911 call was placed. In a situation where there is a threat at a crowded store, there are usually dozens of 911 calls that are received. And Scott exited the store along with everyone else when customers were asked to do so over the PA system, so it doesn't seem like Scott was disobeying requests to leave the store at that point anyway. Also, nobody was running away from Scott--he had to be separated from the other customers in order for police to shoot him.
Bottom line: we need to see the tapes that were provided to Metro.
I am reminded of the words of the song of "The Corps." This is not going away.
Dear Mr Scott,
I really wanted to attend the vigil last night, but for reasons that I don't understand myself, I didn't have the emotional strength to do so. Erik's death fired such moral outrage in my heart that I doubt that I'll ever be able to walk though that doorway again.
My heart aches for you, your family and Erik's friends, and you will remain in my thoughts and prayers in the weeks and months to come.
Put the tapes on youtube! As hi tech as cosco is, I'd bet they have off-site back-up of all their computer data at their main data centers, lets see them!
If the Costco employee is lying, then he should be prosecuted. I find it extremely hard to believe that this Costco employee made a thought process decision to lie to 911 about someone throwing merchandise around so they would respond quicker...or respond at all. I think you are giving the employee too much credit for thinking fast.
I still want to know why the cop said "stop, I told you to stop".... This wording implies Erik was told to stop and had to be retold by cops.
In any event, it sounds like a good man lost his life over a CCW issue. I mean, has society gotten to the point where we need to carry a gun into a Summerlin Costco? When it gets to that point, I'm not going to be living in Las Vegas....you'll find me in the mountains of Montana or some other deserted place.
Of course, not being there I'm not sure what commands were given to Erik Scott. It is interesting that so many who were there heard so many different commands.
Which leads me at least to ask how long Erik was given to comply.
It would be interesting to know what the average "reaction time" is for the average person. A reasonable person would probably take a second to realize they were the target of the command. Then they might need a second or two before they even started to comply. Maybe you can see my point. Maybe not.
From personal observations in the past, the police don't really give a reasonable amount of time for a person to comply.
It is disturbing to see a number of cops gang up on someone on the ground (seems the full weight of a knee is always applied to the back of the neck). Then when all the cops are pulling in different directions, the guy is given a command "don't resist." Quit resisting, etc.
Of course, the guy doesn't appear to be resisting. It appears more like the cops are pulling the guy in all different directions. He couldn't "cooperate" if he wanted to.
I'm not sure which comes next: the baton to the back of the head, or the resisting arrest charge.
It would be interesting to hear all the 911 calls to see if it's possible to determine how long he was allowed to comply.
====
Beware GESTAPO 9-1-1
Commentary from some guy here called Stinky or Lumpy or something like that? Who cares?
Also one of the nastier comments equating the West Point grad with a low life creature? That's just a sicko desperate to get attention.
@TomD1288: Whatever the reason, every eyewitness account from the store made public thus far doesn't match up with the information that was provided by the 911 dispatcher to the responding officers.
Personally, I'm willing to be that the Costco employee figured he'd "teach" Scott a lesson, but that's just supposition. Heck, nowadays you have morons that engage in "swatting"--calling police over voice over IP lines or using anonymous pre-paid cards to give false reports just so that SWAT teams will raid an unsuspecting person's house. Nothing surprises me anymore.
As for Scott's decision to carry a gun, keep in mind that Scott sold pacemakers. Heart failure pacemakers can sometimes cost $35K-$50K and some hospitals are located in less-than-safe parts of town. If I were carrying around a $40K worth of equipment, I might carry a gun, too.
The bottom line is that the single most important piece of information is the videotape. Prior to this incident, Costco's surveillance system was touted as one of the most reliable camera systems available on the market today in a press release. Now we're told that the system had a "glitch".
Very strange.
He was a West Point graduate. That means he was a West Point graduate and does not mean anything else. It does not mean you can walk past sign sign saying no firearms with it tucked into your belt. It does not mean you (or your girlfriend) can tell people your a green beret and are allowed to cary guns. Your right. Something's wrong here and given time, it will come out. Be curios to see the results of the blood tests.
I seem to recall many witnesses reporting that no sign was posted outside Costco on July 10. In the times I shopped there before this shooting, I don't recall seeing a sign. I have not been back since, nor will I ever go back to any Costco store. I would like to hear a statement from Costco on what happened with the tapes and that the company acknowledges that the shooting took place on their property.
There is something seriously wrong here in America when we have to contend with cops as crooked and corrupt as these. Isn't the slogan "To protect and to serve" NOT "To kill indiscriminately, pillage, plunder, harass, and harm the general public."?
What happened was after the cops accidentally shot Scott when he was pulling out his wallet (the cops thought he was reaching for a gun) they later took some of the store merchandise and threw it around and damaged it to make it look like there had been a scuffle and that Scott went "postal" even though that certainly wasn't the case and he was calm and compliant the whole time. The cops didn't want anybody to find out how this was mishandled so they erased the data on the Costo Closed circuit television tapes. It's actually not a video tape at all. All the video footage is saved directly on computer hard drives and it's burned onto compact discs aka CD's.
This was criminal activity on the cops behalf and it was also obstruction of justice. It's a case where the cops were the bad guys.
Scott is like an American Hero. He's like a martare. His death will not go unnoticed. Because of Scott in the future we will have a much better police department. I hope.
I see. There isn't something seriously wrong with society when people feel the need to carry a gun into a local Costco in Summerlin? Might as well bring a gun into Disney Land. Just as much chance you'll need it.
It really isn't difficult to avoid conflicts with the police. Drive the speed limit, obey the laws, don't draw attention to yourself in a negative way and you will most likely never have an encounter with a cop.
We are waiting for toxicology, video and audio to try and back up some of the conflicting witness statements. Making statements that the cops are criminals does nothing to get to the truth. You seem to have already made up your mind without knowing the facts.
According to the Nevada State Constitution, Sec. 11. Right to keep and bear arms; civil power supreme.
1. Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes.
According to our US Constitution, 2nd Amendment:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Erik had EVERY right as a US citizen and as a Nevada resident to bear arms. If he wanted to carry his gun in Costco then that is his RIGHT - if you are uncomfortable around guns well guess what - you DON"T have the right to deny the gun carrier of their rights! That isn't and SHOULD not be the issue. The issue is why won't Costco or Metro show the public any evidence??? EVERYTHING is hearsay until the 911 calls/surveillance videos are released. If Erik was acting erratically and disobeying police orders then show it. If Metro f-up overreacted and were trigger happy then show it.
I feel sorry for Erik's family who aren't placing blame, they just want answers that they deserve!
I'd like y'all to know that citizens of other cities/states are watching these events closely.
From Denver, I offer my sincere support and wish I could have been there in person to stand with you all.
"Erik had EVERY right as a US citizen and as a Nevada resident to bear arms. If he wanted to carry his gun in Costco then that is his RIGHT"
This is true...Unless an owner or a representitive of the business asks/tells you to leave with your gun...The property owner/business has rights too, and if they ask or tell you to leave FOR ANY REASON.....GO! after you leave, call and bitch to a manager...That is how a profeessional should have handled the situation, and since he was a West Point Grad, I would think he was (or should have been) more professional, not whining about being a green beret, or his CCW.
YOU, as a citizen do not have the right to remain on private property after being asked/told to leave.
I carry concealed all the time, and have been asked on more than one occasion to leave a business because I was armed....I left and there was NO ISSUE.
No signs are needed, an employee can ask/tell you to leave for ANY reason, and if you do not, they have the right to call the police.
If you are asked to leave and you don't, the crime you are charged with is trespassing, which is a misdemeanor, not a capital offense. Question, if he refused to leave, why was he shot outside the store?
DevilDog - Yes I agree with your statement, if asked to leave private property then you should (whether you are carrying a gun or not). Unfortunately, without any surveillance videos being released no one knows whether he was asked to leave and refused or if an employee just freaked out because they saw a gun and assumed the worst. Some people say he was acting erratic , other say he wasn't - show the tapes and shut everyone's hearsay up!!!
My boyfriend open carries everywhere we go and he does get a lot of looks from people who are uncomfortable seeing that. I have a problem when people don't realize we live in an open-carry state and they try to tell us that carrying a firearm in public is illegal. Private businesses or owners/reps of private property do have the right to ask you leave - I did not mean to imply that they didn't. Just like I have the right to choose whether or not I conduct business with them they have the right to refuse me service.
Again, the issue shouldn't be "he was carrying a gun", "he had a CCW", he was West Point Grad or ex-military. All of that doesn't matter - all anyone should want is the truth and the truth lies in those video tapes. I find it very hard to believe that in this digital age Costco doesn't have ANY footage (whether inside the store or at the entrance) of this tragic and unfortunate event.
Heh are cops are as a whole terrible, sure there's good ones, but there's alot of scumbags they hired a few years ago during that hiring binge that have absolutely no right being cops.
I flagged the comment of KuntKente but I see the staff did not remove it. Typical of Greenspun and his staff. Clueless and corrupt.
Costco doesn't want video out any more than Metro. If the video shows Erik acting normally in store, makes them responsible for filing false report. That false report lead to Metro's deadly response. Easy way to find out, release the video and the 911 tapes. If the video is damaged, let a third party, ie, the FBI, examine it, not some firm Metro is paying. If the video was intentionally damaged, investigate, and file criminal charges for evidence tampering, obstruction of justice against the responsible parties.
There seem to be many inconsistencies in comments here. I see the use of the term 'due process' for example. That refers to the rights of the accused to be free from certain excesses of the government. Also, many would like the 'accused' to give up there rights under the law to NOT act as a witness against himself. Maybe you, if in similar circumstances, would blab to the media and satisfy the insatiability curiosity of the pro/con trolls, but you would be insane to do so, guilty or not. The so called statements you claim the PD put out are synopses of events as described to them. Not evidence nor intended to be the final word on the matter. The assumptions people make here in order to bolster their positions... ridiculous. So quick to decide, facts be damned...or in this case presently unknown. Sad part is many of you would qualify as the jury of so called peers. I'll stick to a bench trial if ever presented with the need to make a choice.
<Both my hubby and son are licensed to carry. We go to Costco frequently. Should his shirt creep up and someone sees a gun, can I expect everyone to freak out, overreact and shoot them?>
I'm not against the 2nd Amendment; I believe as law abiding citizens we have a right to own guns to protect ourselves.
BUT......to answer your question with some questions:
WHY have a gun on you when going shopping? Why is that necessary? What is the point? Do they think they will get waited on quicker if they're packing? Does it make them feel like men?
My God, it's not as if there is no law and order in Las Vegas, it's not like you have gangs of thugs roaming the streets robbing and pillaging. Yes, s&it happens but walking around like you're Walker Texas Ranger while going to Costco (or any store for that matter) for your 36 count package of jumbo paper towels and 10 gal bottle of laundry soap is ridiculous.
And I don't want to hear "oh you don't understand". I do understand....
Hope that the day the shirt DOES creep up, no one notices and nothing bad happens to "hubby" or the kid.
<As for Scott's decision to carry a gun, keep in mind that Scott sold pacemakers. Heart failure pacemakers can sometimes cost $35K-$50K and some hospitals are located in less-than-safe parts of town. If I were carrying around a $40K worth of equipment, I might carry a gun, too.>
Bullsh*t reason to be carrying in an establishment that does NOT allow guns on the premises.
Everyone is always screaming about our right to "bear arms" but no one thinks of the consequences when these well-meaning citizens bearing those arms get caught in something such as this. Whether the gentleman was acting strange or not - the police responded to a man carrying a gun in a place where he was not supposed to be carrying. Make it be a lesson to all you wannabe
Wyatt Earps out there. Think twice before you holster up to go get your Starbucks.
Oh yeah - CCW or not:
What do you gunslingers do when you go into the casinos? Check your guns at the door? Guns are STILL not allowed in casinos, are they?
< Erik had EVERY right as a US citizen and as a Nevada resident to bear arms. If he wanted to carry his gun in Costco then that is his RIGHT >
Again BULLSH&T to this comment!!!!
<A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed>
Again, I am not against people having guns but....when this was written we had no police departments. It was THE people who policed themselves and were there to protect what was their's against the enemy. Hence, the "well regulated militia". PLEASE do not compare fighting for democracy against the enemy to shopping at Costco, who does not allow guns on their premises.
Who is the "accused" in a Coroner's Inquest? "A Coroner's Inquest is the fact-finding procedure that takes place anytime an individual dies at the hands of law enforcement. The purpose of this hearing is to publicly bring forth ALL OF THE DETAILS surrounding the incident causing this death, as described in Clark County Code, 2.12. The panel of designed jurors hears the testimony of pertinent witnesses and, based on the information, reaches a verdict determining if the death was justifiable, excusable, or criminal." (Coroner's website). The issue is that only one side of the story is presented. The family of the deceased are not permitted to present witnesses, introduce evidence, cross examine witnesses, or even ask questions unless permitted by the Special Master, and those are asked by the Special Master. The first time the family of the deceased sees any of the evidence is at the Inquest. If the deceased had not been killed, and the incident went to trial, they would be entitled to see all of the evidence against them, cross examine witnesses and introduce witnesses. That is absent in an Inquest. It is the DA presenting Metro's side of the case, which was preparted for the DA by Metro.
Casinos are not included in the state law as prohibited places.
carry on people!
There is no reason to carry a gun into that Summerlin Costco. It's in a quiet part of town backing up to Red Rock. What are these people worried about?...I'm as vigilant as anyone when I'm out and about but going to that Costco with a gun is akin to going to DisneyLand with a gun. Bottom line is that if Erik didn't have his gun with him, he'd be alive today. This isn't 1880's wild west. Other than for professional reasons, I really see no reason to carry a gun around. It unnerves too many people and opens yourself up to issues in stores that ban weapons, as it did for Erik. All in all, it does more harm than good to carry it. Then, throw in people who have an attitude with a gun...and it's a recipe for disaster.
Getting argumentative with the employee over the gun was mistake #1. He should have just left quitely. Put the gun away. Come back, buy your supplies and all is well. There was NO REASON to become argumentative and throw out the "I'm a green beret" line. That's the equivalent of these hollywood types throwing out the "do you know who I am" crap. The store policy is very clear. No guns. If you carry a gun, it's really up to you to know whether they allow it or not. If you don't know for sure, be prepared to be asked to leave if they see it and ACCEPT THAT and LEAVE. If you don't like the policy, take it up with management at another time. It's not rocket science to figure out. It's just common sense.
Hey munch did you ever hear of a parking lot heist or robbery ,when returning to your car?If one has a ccw you should carry .It is best to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it,and I am retired law enforcement.
There are people shot all the time in business parking lots. Don't remember, then use the search feature here. Was it a week ago there was 8 arrested in a Wallmart shootout?
a tragedy for sure but why did a medical devices salesman need to walk around the general public at costco with a concealed weapon? it's summerlin, not iraq.
Keep in mind that the coroner's inquest is convened to determine if the killing was criminal. Once the determination is made, the DA is still responsible for pressing charges. It is an extra step not included when you or I kill someone. In that instance the DA files based on the coroner's report. No hearing. Just one man's learned opinion as opposed to a group of people hearing the facts and coming to a consensus.
And on another topic, many are of the opinion that carrying a concealed weapon is at the heart of this issue, but I would remind people that it is likely that the majority of Metro Officers carry concealed weapons off duty into Costco and many other establishments with little if any issues. So there must be something more going on here than just ccw. And I won't entertain any kook theories of trigger happy officers. There are many more plausible and likely possibilities, most far less sinister than the trolls propose. Keep a cool head and let the system work its way through it. If the majority of us think the PD needs a change at the top it will happen. We have the opportunity to effect that change every election.
There seems to be a lot of people assuming the police were not presented with a deadly threat. If MY police officers are presented with the option of taking a life or losing theirs, I want MY police officers to live. They are not, contrary to the opinion of some, paid to be killed or maimed. We pay a lot the train them in ways to prevent that. The public at large does have a responsibility to their police officers, in addition to the converse. We need to be aware our actions can cause predictable re-actions. It is not always enough to not be the bad guy. It can be ill-advised or dangerous to look like or sound like the bad guy. You get stopped for speeding and as you pull over you drop your phone. You start digging around under your seat for your phone. The officer sees you doing that. What could you reasonably foresee going through his mind? Similar situation? I don't know. Maybe.
Yeah great, 8 morons in a walmart parking lot shooting like the OK Corral and you want to pull your weapon out in the middle of that?....good luck. I'll take my chances and duck instead. My odds of not getting shot are probably better than yours. Even if you are robbed at gun point by someone. Are you taking the chance as he points a gun at you to reach, pull your shirt up, grab the gun, draw, aim and fire?.... Trust me, you are dead long before you get to the "fire" aspect. Give up the 9 dollars in your wallet and live another day.
rmm24601, you are a complete moron. Yes, we as citizens have a right to bear arms, but if a private company wants to deny access to those that carry weapons it is within their right... ITS THEIR BUSINESS and if they don't want people carying weapons inside their business then leave the weapon at home or go shopping elswhere.
So when the Airline industry forbids passengers from carrying their guns onto airplanes they must be violating our constitutional rights... lol.
COSTCO is a private company open to the public, so yes they can tell you to leave for any reason they chose... just like if your ignorant self came to my house and I tell you to leave... YOU LEAVE !!
I'm guessing Erik felt cocky, like he was above the law with that cozy little permit, that he didn't need to lie on the ground and follow orders cause he didn't do anything illegal and that's what got him shot. I hope his story can teach CW permit owners a thing or two about etiquette cause there is no way he did it right. And I'm sure if the Scott family keeps up the "look at me" bs they'll get a nice little lifetime movie deal out of this. Until all the evidence is released I'm over it.
Everyone keeps referring to Erik Scott carrying "a gun" while shopping. Actually, according to reports, he was carrying TWO guns.
I guess I can understand someone carrying a concealed weapon to Costco for personal protection -- but TWO guns?!?!?!? To me, that sounds just a tad paranoid.
I'm not saying Erik deserved to be shot but someone needs to look into why he was carrying two guns.
@kunta..
"LOL. Yep those Summerlin parkling lot heists are out of control. Seems every time you turn on the news you are hearing about another COSTCO parking lot heist."
-----
You mean like the guy who died after getting shot in the Suncoast's parking lot as he was leaving one morning?
I take it back. They finally removed kuntkente's comment.
Amazing how many boot-licking Metro lovers are in Vegas. In Oakland, someone finally got fed up with the cops shooting people and they used a sniper rifle to get even. Let's hope that doesn't happen here.
<Hey munch did you ever hear of a parking lot heist or robbery ,when returning to your car?If one has a ccw you should carry .It is best to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it,and I am retired law enforcement>.
Sure, I have but by the time it took for you to get your gun out of your Fruit of the Looms or in a female's situation - out of your purse - you very well may be dead. BEST way in most situations is just to hand over what they want - unless it's your kid or a family member.
As Retired Law Enforcement- YOU of all people should know "civilians" aren't the best when it comes to carrying and/or their own guns in certain situations. You on the other hand know how to react in a split second - civilians do not.
Tanker,
I know of no police dept that releases any evidence for or against anyone prior to the case going to trial....This would be a violation of everyones rights, each party could claim that the other was "trying the case in the media." Is Goodman doing that here? Why not wait for the inquest to see the evidence presented before jumping to conclusions?
It has been said that there are witnesses that did not see Scott pull a gun, but also other witnesses DID see him pull a gun and point it at police....Who do you believe?
There were people that saw him inside acting calm, and others saw him throwing things around...Again who do you believe?
Store video is, believe it or not, notoriously buggy, and a lot of times they don't work at all. I hope there is video, but don't count on it.
I have been in stores that they didn't even have a tape in the recorder.
They WILL NOT release it until the inquest, so get over it already.
@DevilDog, "I know of no police dept that releases any evidence for or against anyone prior to the case going to trial..."
WOW! It is fundamental element of the American justice system that evidence is provided to defense counsel prior to going to trial. In fact, it is a crime for the prosecution to withhold evidence from the defense in a criminal trial!
It's almost scary how little those defending the police know about the Constitution and the US legal system. Don't they teach civics in school anymore?
Two other points. I haven't heard a single eyewitness say that Scott was throwing things in the store and while DevilDog may have been in stores that "didn't even have a tape in the recorder", the Costco surveillance system doesn't have "tape" at all. It's essentially a computer with a hard drive that stores the images and has redundancy.
The Costco surveillance system is one of the best you can buy. Sorry, no way there was a glitch in that system. It has to many backups, and there are no tapes. If I was the attorney suing I would ask for a forensic examination of the hardrives involved.
Summerlin:
The original stories have stated that the police interviewed both witnesses that saw and did not see a gun.
And of course the defense counsel will get a copy of all discovery....But the police DO NOT release evidence...
That is the job of the D.A.'s office.
The DA will not release evidence to the media or private parties.
In this case, there is NO defense counsel, since Scott is not on trial, so there is no criminal issue....
If the inquest finds the officers actions were criminal, there will be a defense counsel for the officers. Their lawyer would get copies of the evidence.
Do we need to continue the civics lesson?
To cpo...
The Sheriff has already sent the hard drives to a forensics lab.
Before I moved to Las Vegas I was beaten almost to death at my front door upon returning home by a young man just paroled. It was a crime of opportunity not a follow home. I bought a stun gun. He went back to prison for another fifteen years without the possibility of parole.
After I moved to Las Vegas, I was the victim of a home invasion. It was another young man on parole. I bought a Beretta with a laser grip. I practice regularly at the best indoor range in Las Vegas.
It's all well and good to have your debates about Nevada being an open carry and CCW state, but I refuse to be a victim again.
Not one writer here has even thought of what may have happened to Erik Scott in the past that would make him feel safer carrying. I wish he was still alive so he could tell you. As for the second gun, it was a backup. Even though he wasn't a LEO, I believe that is a pretty standard practice.
DevilDog,
That is the problem. There is no due process for the deceased in the Inquest. The family is not included in the process. The family can't ask questions, introduce witnesses, or evidence during the inquest. The DA said he asked for a postponement because he had not received any material from Metro. Has that changed? The Sheriff has stated that he doubts that we will ever get an image off the video. Why not? If the Metro lab can't find anything, let the FBI take a crack. Has the video been tampered with? If so, is an investigation going on to charge those people responsible?
DevilDog,
Earlier, you had said that you knew of no case when evidence was released by the police prior to a case "going to trial". The bottom line is that evidence is released in EVERY case before going to trial in the US. You are correct that the inquest is not a trial. This is the only reason that county has been able to get by without ensuring the deceased is represented during the inquest process or releasing evidence.
My problem with the inquest process is that a defense counsel isn't provided during the inquest (because it's not technically a trial), yet the inquest is like a trial in that its' outcome directly impacts the civil rights of the victim. This doesn't square with the principles of the US judicial system, which is based on an adversarial model. In the US, the whole point is to have both sides of an issue presented and then to allow jurors to decide the outcome based on presentations from both sides. The inquest model is an inquisitorial proceeding, not an adversarial proceeding. Jurors are supposed to render a decision at the end of the proceeding but the only information that gets presented during an inquest are the results of an investigation conducted by an agency into itself.
SusanKH
So sorry to hear of your misfortunes. HOWEVER...what kind of neighborhoods did you live in? Also, regarding the attack at your front door - what time of day did that happen?
But back to THIS story - there is no need to carry a weapon into a store which, again, does not allow weapons on the premises in the first place.
I'm curious - I understand how the gun would help in teh home invasion but if the same "front door" situation happened again (which I certainly hope it does not) - how would you having a gun have prevented the attack? Would you have been holding it in your hand already? Would you have it in a place that would have been vulnerable so the dirtbag would be able to get at it and kill you with your own gun? You don't mention circumstances which you really don't have to other than it was a crime of opportunity. In hindsight, how would having that gun help you in this instance?
Det_Munch
It shouldn't matter what kind of neighborhood I lived in or live in now, but you've asked. My former home of twenty-three years was on the beach in Belmont Shore, CA. My close neighbors were the mayor and vice-mayor of Long Beach. I now live in a long established neighborhood, coincidentally, not far from the mayor of Las Vegas.
The assault in California was before 11 pm, upon returning home from a movie and dinner with friends. The home invasion was at 10:30 am on a Saturday morning.
There are many ways a woman can carry a concealed weapon that provide instant access. One is a gun purse. No removal required.
All older women are targets of opportunity. At this moment there is a ninety-five year old lady in the ICU at UMC with a broken hip because she was attacked in a store parking lot. Not that long ago a woman was beaten to death in her electric wheelchair on her way to a convenience store. On today's news was a feature story of senior lady who was able to fend off home invaders because she slept with a gun under her pillow.
I appreciate that you don't see the need for lethal self defense. It is my fervent hope that, in your lifetime, you will never have the need for it. I mean that sincerely.
You and others may think that I am paranoid. I know that it is difficult for anyone who has not been beaten unconscious by someone repeatedly slamming your head on the sidewalk to understand how forever lost is the sense of personal security you once had. There is no amount of therapy that will bring it back. It is not paranoia. It is no different than learning that fire was hot and dangerous after the first time in life we burned ourselves. It is a life changing experience that rewires your brain so that your self-protection and survival instincts are heightened.
I hope I've been able to answer your questions.
Did you see the story on channel 3 this morning about the guy who put a 4 camera security system in because his mail was getting ripped off. He had great video both night and day. Could tell exactly what was going on. Now tell me again about grainy bad store video, might not even be working? Yeah, right. Probably bought the system at Costco. There needs to be an investigation into what happened to the images on the Costco video and the responsible parties need to be charged with evidence tampering and obstruction of justice.
On a side note, did the DA ever file charges against Officers Ubbens and Carpenter for their actions in the death of Ivan Carrillo? He's had the warrants since Aug 3. Do they think that we will forget, and don't forget the Inquest for Trevon Cole on Aug 20.
Summerlin:
You are STILL NOT GETTING THE PIONT!
The POLICE DO NOT RELEASE EVIDENCE, it is turned over to the District Attorney's office and the DA turns over "discovery," or evidence to the defense counsel prior to trial....
All of these people that are crying for the police to release ANYTHING, are whining about the wrong agency...The DA is the agency that releases evidence in a criminal case.
The police are not to blame for holding on to the evidence.
To Tanker:
I know from personal experience that once store surveillance systems are installed, they are not maintained well...Like anything else, without a little maintenance occasionally, they don't work properly. Like any computer, if you don't perform system maintenance, it runs like crap and eventually will not work at all...Yes I have experience in surveillance systems, and a lot of stores have crappy ones because corporate won't fork over the cash to either purchase good ones, or upgrade....So yes there are many instances where store cameras dont work, computers are crap and management doesn't care.
Yes stores sell great systems, but still use crappy old systems, surveillance is an after thought to a lot of large corporations in retail.
@DevilDog The last statement from the DA was the reason the Coroner's Inquest was postponed was that the DA's office had not received any of the investigatory materials from the sheriffs office. The sheriff himself is making statements about the video. If the lab that Metro is paying to find images can't find any, send the tapes to the FBI
@Devildog. Why does a business go to the expense of having a video system? To protect merchandise, limit liability in case of customer falls, etc or to capture images of crime. Let's assume that instead of getting shot, Erik Scott fell inside Costco, do you think they would have video images of what happened? Not buying what you are selling about the video system in a nation wide big box store. Lets hear from Costco, simple question, was the video working? If yes, what happened to the imagines? Somebody knows.
Tanker,
I am just passing a little of my experience on to those of you who are squealing about releasing the video from the store....If the video is avalable it will be viewed during the inquest, however, in my experecne, store purchase surveillance equipment, set it up and forget about it until something happens, a fall, a robbery, or a myriad of other things...Then they find that it was never maintained, or an employee didn't replace the tape, reset the hard drive, or even turn the recording device on....It happens all the time, just because Costco is a big money making chain doesn't mean the human factor didn't creep in and FUBAR the whole thing. Home Depot had a horrible system until a bunch of employees started to embezzle, finally after the cash disappeared, they upgraded and the emplyees were caught....IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!
Can you say for sure that every little item you use, weather it is used every day or supposed to be ready for your use, is 100% ready all the time? No one can.
@DevilDog, we are just going to have to disagree on the video. I just find it impossible to believe that every single video camera and every single recording in a store as large as Costco was not working. Not buying, sorry, mom and pop store maybe, large box store, video not working, not buying, especially when we see video imagines from all kinds of stores on tv all the time. All video released by Metro.