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Sam Morris / Las Vegas Sun
Metro crime scene investigators, officers and detectives mill about the entrance of the Costco store in Summerlin after the shooting July 10, 2010.
Monday, July 19, 2010 | 2 a.m.
QUESTIONS REMAIN
Metro officers and crime scene investigators, above, look over an area after a shooting at a Costco store in Summerlin which left 39-year old West Point graduate Erik Scott dead July 10. Witnesses say Scott was “acting erratically” and in possession of a gun. Officials are still investigating the incident.
Erik Scott memorial
Sun archives
The fatal police shooting of an armed man in a crowded Costco parking lot this month raises a host of questions — including, most fundamentally, “What is the standard operating procedure for police in controlling such a situation?”
Confronting an armed suspect with a large crowd as a backdrop is one of the most complex situations an officer can face.
“The ultimate goal is to isolate that person and get the innocent bystanders out,” says Deputy Armando Avina, spokesman for the Washoe County sheriff’s office. “But it’s a scene that’s hard to script.”
For starters, police typically have sketchy information when they pull up to the scene, as was the case July 10 when Metro Police were called to the Costco in Summerlin.
In response to a 911 call from a store employee who reported that a man was “acting erratically,” damaging merchandise and in possession of a pistol, officers arrived and headed for the entrance. With customers streaming out of the entrance after store employees ordered an evacuation, a Costco worker pointed out the suspect to police as he was exiting.
According to Metro’s news releases, an officer approached the man, 39-year-old West Point graduate Erik Scott, observed a weapon in his waistband and ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. With two other officers joining in, police said, Scott “drew his pistol and pointed it” at the officer who had commanded Scott to lie down. The three officers then shot at Scott, striking him numerous times at close range without hitting anyone else, and he died a short time later. Some news reports have suggested that the officers were waiting for Scott with their guns drawn.
Metro’s version of the shooting is disputed by an attorney for Scott’s family, who says the victim did not pull out his handgun. Eyewitness accounts conflict, and major pieces of information have yet to be released, including transcripts of the 911 call, police dispatches and any surveillance video.
Experts in tactical training say that if Scott ignored police commands and pointed his gun, as Metro alleges, the officers had every right to use deadly force and should be commended for not striking anyone else.
Metro wouldn’t discuss how it approaches incidents involving large crowds. Although its thick operations manual provides detail on use of force — such as “officers should, whenever possible, use verbal skills to attempt to control subjects before resorting to physical control methods” — there isn’t much in the way of explaining how it attempts to isolate an armed suspect from a throng of bystanders.
That’s not altogether uncommon where police manuals are concerned, says retired DEA agent Rande Matteson, a criminal justice professor at Saint Leo University in Florida.
“They want to cover as much as they can from a broad perspective because they can’t have a playbook about everything,” he says. “What this does is give officers a wide range of discretion, because their policies have usually been vetted by legal counsel.”
For years across the country, it was common practice for the first officers at a crowded scene to try to contain an armed suspect and then call in a SWAT team of trained snipers to kill him or otherwise neutralize the threat.
Then came the Columbine High School massacre in Colorado in 1999, in which two students shot and killed 12 students and a teacher before committing suicide. This watershed event not only drew attention to school safety, but also prompted police agencies nationwide to train front-line officers in ways to confront “active shooters” rather than having to wait for SWAT teams to appear.
Like other modern police forces, Metro has supplemented its academy training with computer-assisted instruction to simulate real-life scenarios as a refresher for officers once they earn their badges.
But police instructors say it is virtually impossible to train for every scenario, especially ones that involve large crowds. Mike Thomas, an instructor at the Butte College Public Safety Training Center in Oroville, Calif., says one of the most difficult tasks for the emergency worker is having to process what is sometimes conflicting information from dispatchers and eyewitnesses.
“It’s difficult to make a perfect decision,” Thomas says. “In fact, it’s impossible because you never have all the facts, much like in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.”
That’s why Phoenix police are trained in concepts intended to cover a broad range of scenarios, says Phoenix Police Sgt. Bret Draughn, a firearms expert.
Take the crowd. In an attempt to prevent death or injury to a bystander, Draughn says Phoenix police are taught to reposition themselves, if possible, in relation to the suspect.
“In considering the totality of circumstances, are they shooting because they have no choice even if the backdrop is at high risk?” he says. “Or do they have a chance to move the backdrop?”
Add another wrinkle. How can a police officer issue commands to the suspect and warn onlookers to get out of harm’s way?
“You can’t yell commands to a guy with a gun and yell commands to the crowd at the same time,” Draughn says. “There are times when you can’t issue any verbal commands. By a suspect’s actions, there are times he’s forcing us to act right now. When it’s time to shoot, we tell our officers to shut up because they can perform better when they aren’t multitasking.”
Getting a crowd to evacuate is no easy task, though.
“It’s one thing to tell five people what to do,” Thomas says. “It’s another to tell 500 or 5,000.”
Ideally, Avina says, police could establish a perimeter in which officers give clear instructions to bystanders while helping to contain the suspect.
Ideally, they would also have time to establish a SWAT presence and even deploy hostage negotiators to deal with the possibility of a gunman overtaking innocent bystanders.
That’s a whole lot of “ideally.” In reality, crowds are often difficult to control when people know an armed suspect is in their presence, and police often don’t have the time to get organized.
When approaching an armed suspect near or within large crowds, emergency workers need to identify who the suspect is and where he is and then assess the threat, says retired FBI Special Agent Ronnie Frigulti, a police training consultant in Oregon.
The best option “ideally is to preserve life,” including that of the suspect. “Even with an armed suspect, we still look to them as a person,” he says.
The fear that a bullet fired by an officer can pass through a suspect and hit an innocent victim is overblown — it happens less than 1 percent of the time, Frigulti says. Nevertheless, the most important skills for a police officer when firing a weapon are accuracy, then speed.
“The first thing going through an officer’s mind is, ‘I can’t miss,’ ” he says.
Whenever possible, those shots are fired at close range, which Matteson defined as three to five feet from the suspect.
“If you can’t shoot a target at that distance and get close to the center of body mass, you have to go back to remedial training,” he says.
Naturally, the more panic sweeps through the crowd and the more antsy behavior is displayed by the suspect, the more likely it is for the police officer to feel stressed.
The officer “is thinking about the public’s safety and he’s thinking about his own safety because if he gets hurt, he can’t protect the public,” Frigulti says. “So there’s a lot of things going through his mind.”
This article is a bunch of BS and it isn't going to shut the public up! Since police are still claiming that Erik took his gun out and pointed it at police officers and therefore Metro had to shoot him dead than you better release those damn tapes from Costco or your police cars because they have cameras in them and show the public.
Simple as that Captain Neville, Show the tapes and if your side of the story is correct you will get apology out of me but since you won't release them (cause maybe you sent them to Hollywood or something to be edited) than you get nothing.
You and the Sheriff are cowards in a lot of peoples eyes. SHOW THE TAPES! I BELIEVE THE WITNESS THAT DISPUTE YOUR CLAIM! JUSTICE FOR ERIK, HIS FAMILY, AND FRIENDS, AND THE PEOPLE OF LAS VEGAS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
doesn't the nra preach that if everybody walked around with a gun the world would be a safer place???
guess the nra is full of crap!!!
It makes no sense that a person with Erics background at West Point and his training as a green beret to suddenly be staring at 3 guns and pull his own gun. If he had just robbed a bank or shot someone and felt that it was his only was to escape it would be feasable. Why would he pull his gun if not to shoot the officers and why, to keep from being arrested for trying water bottels out in his backpack.
When approaching an armed suspect near or within large crowds, emergency workers need to identify who the suspect is and where he is and then ASSESS THE THREAT, says retired FBI Special Agent Ronnie Frigulti, a police training consultant in Oregon.
THANK YOU! In Erik Scott's case it was apparent that wasn't done.
But notice, yet another apparent piece of conflicting information versus some of the previous reports: You may recall reports that a Costco employee had to point Scott out to officers. In this version, police are now saying they "observed" the weapon in his waistband before pointing their weapons at him. But yet, several onlookers he was shot as he was "lifting up" his shirt and that was when they saw the gun. So how did the officers observe the gun that was under his shirt before he lifted his shirt?
These guys didn't see a gun and then order him to raise his hands. They surrounded him, gave conflicting orders and THEN saw a gun when Scott was trying to comply.
And as yet, not a single eyewitness has reported that Metro even ordered Scott to raise his hands, once again a variation from the eyewitness reports!
Bottom Line: We need to see the tapes. Period.
And the police have yet to even give us a motive as to why Scott would act the way they are suggesting.
This case stinks and they know it. Once again, here is the e-mail for ASST US Attorney General Thomas Perez: Tom.Perez@usdoj.gov.
Ask the Department of Justice to get involved. Another law enforcement agency needs to look at this.
I have serious questions about this case.
@martin9
"unfortunately, the gun nuts never get it, guns gotten for personal safety overwhelmingly are used by spouses against another, to settle drunken arguments, children find them and play, people in despair take their life, etc. etc."
I don't want this to turn into a CCW debate, but where did you get that information? Because it is simply not true.
"metro has said 16 of 42 witnesses interviewed saw the customer pull his gun."
Where did you read/see that?
I don't believe for a minute this guy pulled his weapon out and "pointed it" at police. And I wholeheartedly believe these cops approached him with their weapons already drawn. The likely scenario was when he heard their commands and raised his shirt to show his weapon (bad mistake) cops opened fire witout waiting to ascertain the facts. I would call that "trigger happy".
First off, I cannot believe that people would actually entertain the idea that cops just want to kill people.
Second, all the guy had to do is exactly what the cops said.
If it was you and your job was to be a cop and you had to debate in your head wether or not to fire and all you saw was your kids faces I think you'd favor your own safety.
This is not about the second amendment, this is about an armed man, causing a scene and not following orders.
"It makes no sense that a person with Erics background at West Point and his training as a green beret to suddenly be staring at 3 guns and pull his own gun."
Does this kind of stuff ever make sense?
My pops is a cop and people regularly choose suicide by cop.
How come no one is asking why the man was freaking out to begin with?
The cops didnt create this situation, he did.
"When approaching an armed suspect near or within large crowds, emergency workers need to identify who the suspect is and where he is and then ASSESS THE THREAT, says retired FBI Special Agent Ronnie Frigulti, a police training consultant in Oregon."
So you are assuming this was not done?
I understand that for family members this is hard to accept, and they deserve to mourn their loss however they need too.
But to suggest that these cops wanted to kill him is heinous. These officers are extremely distraught over having to take this mans life. Most shop at that costco.
Ask yourself one question. Why were the cops there?
What happened to bring it to the point that the cops had to be called?
Why did he even reach for his guns?
If you can justify any of these, then maybe the cops made a mistake, but you will not be able too.
lectrocuda--Oh then you believe that Scott was destroying merchandise? You then think that he was waving his gun(s) at police? If so, you're a freakin fool.
As with any situation.....the police should be treated as guilty until proven innocent, just like they treat everyone else in the world. You seriously expect me to believe that it was necessary to shoot to kill this man ? ....I heard that the cops were yelling at this man giving him conflicting orders "one saying lay on the ground...and another saying put the gun on the ground" all at the same time. This article is a farce.
I agree that this article is biased, but I don't think it's biased intentionally.
Much of what the reporter states is true. It's just not all applicable to this situation.
For example, it IS difficult to control a crowd in this type of situation. That is a factual statement, but in this situation there is no information suggesting that controlling the crowd was an issue. Everyone was evacuating the store very calmly, based on everything I've read. I haven't heard any stories about people running away from a "crazed gunman" inside the store or panicking in anyway.
And for the record, it looks like Metro PD did a great job isolating Scott, so I don't know that is even an issue.
Likewise, the article states that if Scott ignored police warnings and pointed his gun at them, then the police were justified in shooting him. Taken on its' face, that's also 100% true.
The real problem with this article is that it repeats the initial Metro version without providing the stories of the eyewitnesses that claim they never saw Scott pull his gun and point it at officers.
Just as the previous statement is true, it is also true that the shooting is unjustified if Scott tried to obey commands from officers and did not point his weapon at them.
The story also also omits the eyewitnesses that stated police shouted contradictory commands, which would have made it impossible for Scott to comply.
The suspect's actions are supposed to dictate the response of the police in these types of situation. However, in this case it appears that the suspect's response was driven by the police's actions.
Show the tapes show the tapes squeal the cop haters ..butt ... if tapes are produced and those tapes back the police version of the occurence these same jackanipes are going to squeal the tapes have been altered the tapes have been altered!
This article doesn't deserve the space it's getting and I agree with the poster that says its paid for by Metro. Listen, we understand that cops have a tough job they CHOOSE to do. We also understand that some situations actually require the cops to not just shoot on site, but come on, an article stating that it's a tough position to be in??????????????????
Garbage, LV Sun. How about some investigative work regarding ALL the other important questions on this case?
@birdiedreamin'-
Okay nitwit, then explain why the places in the U.S. with the lowest violent crime rates also just happen to have some of the highest rates of gun ownership.
@Martin9-
So you're saying that the majority of privately owned firearms are involved in crimes? There are nearly 30,000 CCW permit holders in Clark County. How many of them have been arrested, indicted, or convicted of a crime involving a firearm?
Situational awareness: key word, "active shooter".
Costco involuntary manslaughter; keyword, "walking", out of store as instructed.
Yant voluntary manslaughter; keyword, "kneeling" as instructed no weapon, in a freaking bathroom.
3 words...
civilian review board!!!
Erik Scott was murdered by three Metro officers for following/complying with their order to "drop the gun". He never had a chance to remove his gun before being shoot to death. He merely lifted his shirt to expose where the gun was located and was shot to death for complying. Several witnesses have described this scenario.
If Metro's story was correct the 911 and video tapes would have been released to support their version.
Show us the tapes! What do you have to hide!
It's simple, someone wanted him killed. An obvious setup. It's legal to carry a weapon in Nevada if you're licensed. Maybe the girlfriend isn't talking because a dispute involved her and someone else ended up at a quiet Summerlin Costco, and a witness heard 'gun', who panicked and notified employees to call police. The run-in with Scott could have been preplanned. An arguement arose, 'gun' was mentioned (like 'bomb' in an airport) and the rest is history. Very unfortunate, but these 'situations' happen across the globe.
"lectrocuda--Oh then you believe that Scott was destroying merchandise? You then think that he was waving his gun(s) at police? If so, you're a freakin fool."
I think you need to learn how to read.
So logicshouldrule, why were the cops called in the first place?
Why did he not comply with direct orders from police officers?
Do you believe the cops wanted to kill him?
C'mon, you want to call me names and put words in my mouth, answer these questions.
I dont hear you people in an outrage over what happened to that pot dealer. Oh but he was black and poor right.
I just cant believe you fkn freaks that are calling this a setup.
Why did costco call the cops?
Was it part of some national conspiracy?
Was his savings out weighing his annual fee so costco called the cops to have him killed?
give me a freaking break, you people are fkn twisted individuals. When you come back to reality ask why he reached for his guns? When that kind of logic makes sense to you I suggest you go pull a freaking gun on the cops
lectrocuda--Sorry, obviously you're so spot on. I see the light now:
The cops removed a raving maniac, a menace to society. Thank God for Metro and an appropriate response!! Justice has prevailed!!
There...You happy now??
My parents always said if you start off on the wrong foot you most often you will wind up on the wrong foot.
This fellow certainly didnt deserve to die. This was a needless waste.
However if you start from the beginning .Guns are not allowed in Costco period. It is not a public place. Scott was exercising his legal right to carry however doesnt anyone question why he felt it necessary to carry 2 guns. Isint one enough? Once that first mistake was made then in all likelihood the following events dictated the outcome. Supposedly he said to his girlfriend,that guns are not permitted in Costco, I think I should go out to the car and leave the weapon there.
How might this have changed had he walked up to the service desk after he paid and told them that he made a mistake in bringing his gun into the store. Perhaps and I cant say for sure the outcome would have been different. All the events from what I read were based upon false assumptons yet the most important was that he broke the first rule and carried into Costco. The rest is an accident waiting to happen and it did.
This was truly a needless death, Yet there is always a trade off when people do what THEY WANT TO DO right or wrong.
Perhaps some folks WILL realize that carrying a gun requires absolute and totally 100% compliance with all laws not just the legal right to carry.
"lectrocuda--Sorry, obviously you're so spot on. I see the light now:
The cops removed a raving maniac, a menace to society. Thank God for Metro and an appropriate response!! Justice has prevailed!!"
I think you should change your name, or practice what you preach.
I never said that.
I think what happened is a tragedy for all involved.
The simple fact remains that metro did not create this situation.
They responded to it. One look at my own rap sheet will tell you I am anything but a saint.
Look logic, Im not knocking your friend, the bank called the cops on me for freaking out, Im glad I wasnt carrying my gun...who knows how it could of gone down.
But to claim it as some kind of conspiracy, as some have done, or to say that these officers wanted to kill him, as some have said, is stupid.
Anyways, if your hurting that much you can take your pain out on me, I dont mind, but I would also suggest staying away from these threads because people on here can be extremely cruel.
Huh? Where does it say I'm hurting? Where do I say it was a conspiracy? Looks like you're confused.
What about the Costco employee(s) that made the very poor decision to call the police because an individual "was acting erratically and had a gun"? Is there not blood on their hands as well?
People are allowed to carry guns. From what I've gathered, Erik was testing the capacity of his backpack with the water bottles and an employee caught a glimpse of a weapon. I'll bet this person(s) panicked and called the police. And when the police get a call about someone acting erratically and has a gun, it's never going to be good.
This whole thing is a mess. It seems mistakes were made all around. However, all these police shootings seems excessive. 18 already this year? What are the stats for other US cities of the same size as Las Vegas?
no call that police respond to is easy.
it all comes down to TRAINING AND TACTICS AND EXPERIENCE and apparently in this town MATURITY.
the young cops are TOO YOUNG!
training is useless because they dont follow it.
maybe metro should start using more than 1 tool that is on their belt.
After reading the direction of some of these posts, I can only say the following:
To the "COPS ARE EVIL AND CAN DO NO RIGHT" crowd: Do you seriously think that the cops killed Erik Scott to get extra paid leave or that it was a set up by the police? Get real.
To the "COPS ARE PERFECT AND CAN DO NO WRONG" crowd: Cops are human. They make mistakes. Two of the cops were rookies. Rookies tend to make more mistakes than most.
The job of a police officer is to take their training and apply it to real-world situations. That is why it is a tough job. But it is their job.
If the officers had done their job correctly, they would have been able to properly assess the threat that Erik Scott posed. They didn't.
They would have issued the appropriate verbal commands. They (apparently) didn't.
They would have used the appropriate techniques for disarming a civilian and used the appropriate level of force necessary to resolve the situation. They didn't.
If the officers had done their job correctly, we wouldn't be in this situation.
If you accept the premise that officers were just trying to do their job and that Scott was not going "bezerk" in store--and not a single eyewitness has come forward suggesting he was going "bezerk", it begs the question:
"Why did the officers roll to a scene expecting to find a crazed gunman threatening a crowd full of people?"
Was it because the Costco employee was afraid to ask someone with a gun to leave the store and thought the police get there faster if the story was embellished to make it sound like Scott was "destroying' the store? Was the Costco employee just miffed that Scott replied to him with the "I have a CCW permit" line when approached and wanted to "teach" Scott a lesson? Did the 911 operator incorrectly relay the report of what was actually happening in the store, etc.
As for those gun-control advocates suggesting that Scott brought this on himself for carrying a weapon, just remember, the law is the law. You may think Nevada's CCW laws are terrible, but it's really a non-issue.
A final reminder for others that would blame the victim: the burden of proof to show that this was a clean shooting rests on the shooters, not the victim.
Perhaps 60-minutes would be interested in producing unannounced mock armed terrorist drills at Costco outlets around the valley to teach the world the Metro method?
: {
@ Harley: I have no doubt that the national media will eventually start heading to Vegas asking some questions that are far more pointed than the local press.
I've already mentioned this story to a friend of mine at a national media outlet and they're just waiting to see if the Costco tapes will be produced.
If the technical "glitch" with the tapes becomes "permanent", have no doubt that this will go national.
Harley, I actually think my friend's quote was something to the effect of:
"Man, if they can't produce those tapes, I'm gonna fly out to Vegas, blow a bunch of money and come home with a Pulitzer"
this story sounds like damage control but i still believe scott did something wrong to get shot.
WE DEMAND JUSTICE FOR SCOTT!!!!!!
I am of the opinion the public should at least be arming themselves with video cameras to capture the next "Zapruder" moment -- only to be released AFTER all the eyewitness testimonies, conclusions and verdicts have been reached to reveal who the liars really are.
: {
Sheriff Gillispie your PD is a PR nightmare.Why would this guy make statements to the press right after 3 officers just killed a person.This is where the trouble starts.Hire PR rep.Stop all this bullsh-t from starting....
I am of the opinion that everyone should just calm down.
Lots of emotion, lots of people and reporters offering their opinions without any facts. This leads to nothing productive. As an example, please see any recent Face to Face with Jon Ralston program on this issue. The lack of facts and his ability to fill time with opinion while claiming that he knows nothing is baffling. Also, see any story on this by Fox5. Pathetic.
Evidence is being held until the coroner's inquest is over. When it is, those of you who have already convicted the cops in public can cry that 'justice for Scott' has been served or that the 'system is fixed', since I'm sure that for some of you the police can never get it right. No metter the ruling, the lawyer will try to convince the family to sue.
While you're waiting, consider this fact; Scott needed to ask permission of Costco before carrying a gun into their establishment or he would be breaking a law. If there is a sign posted outside that Costco saying 'no weapons', or if he did not receive permission to carry the gun inside by costco, then he's breaking the law. So, admit this; there is a possibility that Scott was not as informed about the limit of his second ammendment rights as some of you claim.
Instead of 'Justice for Scott', or 'Justive for the cops', I would rather see 'Justice'. However, given the bloodlust by the public, I wonder if that kind of Justice exists anymore.
"If there is a sign posted outside that Costco saying 'no weapons', or if he did not receive permission to carry the gun inside by costco, then he's breaking the law."
what law, costcos? private property requests are not the same as carrying a gun into a courthouse or a federal building.
costco can ask him to leave, if he says i have a permit costco still says sorry you still have to leave. if he does not leave, he can be removed by the police for trespassing.
simple as that.
walk into a government building with a gun and you will be arrested because it is illegal in the first place.
the only facts that matter here, are what was said to the police by costco, what they said...was it true in regards to what Scott was doing, and did Scott pose a threat to anyone. did he have a permit for the gun, yes, ok lets move on because nothing matters here other than did metro shoot him because they are trigger happy idiots.
poor training, lack of concern, lack of punishment for their actions, poor communications, severely and extremely bad attitudes, and stupidity caused this shooting.
metros cars say "partners with the community". FALSE! i have never seen LE so out of touch with a community and have such a piss poor attitude for members of it.
---"please dont shoot me!"
BART officer shooting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXWSgG-KN...
The temperature was reported as 109 degrees on July 10, 2010, the date of the shooting, which happened around 1:30 PM outside of the store.
Metro's position is that the police officers "observed a weapon in his waistband and ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground"
What intelligent person being ordered to (1) raise your hands and (2) lie down on the 130 degree ground doesn't hesitate? What kind of order/command/instruction is that?
Not to mention that if there are a lot of people around, why are shots being fired by anyonw? Basic CCW training, don't fire when there are people around because of the possibility of collateral injury.
I suspect the Costco "policy" about concealed weapons being banned is a fabrication. It requires a $10 sign being posted at the store. If this was a Costco policy, where's the sign? Pretty simple to ascertain this.
I conclude the Metro killed the wrong person. Huge story and lawsuit coming.
My condolences to Mr. Scott's family for this tragedy. Very sad loss of a good and productive member of society.
Ah, I see my comment was deleted by "staff". So I guess it is true. Metro did pay Kanigher to write this POS article.
Absolutely no doubt that there will be a multi million dollar settlement.
The 911 call is a public record. If it doesn't evaporate due to "technical difficulties" the call will tell a lot about how and why this happened.
good view ben, that concrete is hot. fox5 did a story about that on thursday i think, the ground in front of the las vegas sign was 190 degrees.
as for the stupid sign, ever go to costco? there are like 900 people at the front door, and in that time you are waiting in line to show your stupid membership card surrounded by others doing the same, and then the place is so big there is a huge opening and placing a tiny sign would be similar to looking for a needle in a haystack and seriously, who cares if firearms are allowed and not allowed in a place where you can by 400 pounds of cheese for 50 bucks, and then not be able to pay with your debit card!
robert, in this town, payoffs would not surpise me.
I'm amazed at how people are so strongly on one side or the other. Apparently there were 90,000 people at Costco and saw the whole thing from this guy opening boxes in the store to the point when he got shot. I know Saturdays at Costco are busy, but wow it must have been packed that day!
I don't recall who wrote it above, but someone said stop asking for justice for one side or the other, just hope for justice once this all shakes out. Until then anyone taking a side just sounds silly when they don't know what happened. Jumping to conclusions like that is the basis for so many problems in our country.
It'll shake out and we'll know soon, but right now as I said to say one side or the other is at fault is irresponsible.
If the three police officers are reading any of this blog than it is your duty to come out and speak.
It is YOU that will have to live with this forever if you jumped the gun and this man was no threat.
People, including police officers make mistakes, we are human. But a man, a honorable man will confess to them.
People need their faith and respect back for Metro.
They need their community back.
Do the right thing and admit that this was a botched up job that could have been avoided and you will have my respect back. It's the right thing to do for the Scott family as well as the community.
I for sure as well as many others will
One question no one seems to be able to answer- just who is this Captain Patrick Neville? There's no indication he's a department spokesman yet, for some reason, this man has been front and center with some relatively erratic accusations about Mr. Scott. When the story first broke, you literally couldn't shut him up. Neville's most notorious claim- Scott was "kind of going berserk". But no one, from a Costco employee to a customer has backed this up. The Las Vegas Sun should be asking why the intense interest by Neville. Are any of the police officers involved in this shooting sponsored by a city official with some major clout? Why won't the cops release the 911 tape? Something doesn't smell right here.
i think costco shares a lot of the blame here. If they painted the picture that they had a crazy guy with a gun in their store, they are going to pay a hefty price. Doesn't get metro off of the hook, but they may have mistakenly put the officers on the offensive.
@unlvrebs: No, it may not get the cops completely off the hook, but if you're the attorney for the cops you've got an interesting causation argument:
1. The officers shot Scott as the result of a sympathetic nervous system reaction.
2. But for the exaggerated Costco 911 call, the officers never would have had the elevated stress levels that led to the SNS fire.
3. Therefore, the Costco employee bears responsibility for Scott's death.
This case has all the hallmarks of a classic SNS fire situation (something the Sun left out when reporting on shootings in front of crowds).
It doesn't justify the shooting in any way, as officers are supposed to train to prevent SNS fire, but it would make a HUGE difference when it comes to punishment.
On the other hand, the Costco employee may have a little bit more to worry about...
I didn't read all of these comments because I get so upset. This incident give all metro officers a bad name they don't deserve. I'd like to give these YOUNG stupid cops a boxing around their ears! Gillispe, DO YOU HEAR ME? They made a mistake, STOP sticking up for the Punks in the department and start sticking up for those officers who do the jobs!!!! Gillispe, YOU ARE DEMORALIZING ALL GOOD OFFICERS!!! At Erik Scott's funeral the military sent an honor guard and played taps for him. They also covered his casket with an American flag, then folded it military style and presented to his mother. DO YOU GET IT?? GET RID OF THE BAD APPLES!!! If you can't do that, then get out!!! Laurie Bisch is starting to sound good to me.
I'm officially frightened of Las Vegas - not because of the officers, but because of the people who apparently think they know what happened and are making very strong comments when they have NO IDEA.
The term "a jury of my peers" has never scared me so much, as conclusions are drawn with nothing beyond newspaper articles and heresay.
Good god.
An ounce of common sense is as important as a ton of training, and a ton of training ain't worth a hill of beans without an ounce of common sense.
So much ignorance on this site...Good job metro
Show the tapes! How hard is that? Just show the d*%*** tapes.
LOL @ Good job Metro by gone10-96. Are you serious? Get help.
It's all Obama's fault.
gone10-96...are you kidding? you must be a metro cop with that mentality.
xie, 2 good points thanks!
saltydawg, LMAO!
FWIW:
10-96 is law enforcement code for "mental subject".
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It seems as if you people forgot that two of those police officers that killed Erik also had a similar situation a few yrs back. What are the chances of two cops doing the same exact thing? I am going with the paid leave with pay. It takes yrs of investigation, trial etc. That's a mighty long vacation to sit at home and collect a paycheck.
tragic for sure and i'm not supporting the cops, but why did a medical devices salesman need to walk around the general public with two concealed weapons? it's not like summerlin is some war zone.
I understand Costco dragging its feet while it decides the best thing to do with the video tape in light of their liability: "do we produce the tape, remove all doubt, and pay a huge settlement," or "do we have a technical problem so people can only speculate what happened and maybe pay a little smaller huge settlement?"
What I don't understand is why Metro can't release copies of the 911 calls.
Also, it might be a good thing for Metro to post its policy manual on the internet. At least the "Use of Force" policy. I'm sure many readers would be very interested to read that (SummerlinCC is getting a little redundant (no offense intended)). So why hasn't an ambitious, motivated, resourceful investigative reporter worked it into a story? Is there any such thing as an investigative reporter anymore?
So, the questions remaini:
Why no 911 tapes?
Where can a person find a copy of Metro's "Use of Force" policy?
@Congnastics: Believe me, no offense taken. If you think reading some of the posts are redundant, can you imagine how it feels to have to keep typing them?!?!
Unfortunately, about 5 mins. after a post is made, someone that hasn't been reading the published eyewitness reports and is relying solely on the Metro press releases posts a comment saying something like "...but Scott was going bezerk in the store and destroying merchandise" or "...but Scott was pointing his gun at the cops".
When all this began, I said that the Metro story sounded fishy, but if the tapes showed that Scott was going "bezerk" in the store as Metro indicated, I'd agree that he was partially responsible for setting in motion a very unfortunate series of events. And if the videotapes show Scott pointing a gun at officers, I'd agree that the officers were justified in shooting.
But then Metro had to say they had a technical "glitch" with the tape and I realized, "Hey, they put out an official statement about Scott's behavior in the store and they haven't even seen the tape. Oh wait, and there's a retired couple that was shopping next to Scott and they say just the opposite."
And then Metro's public statements began to change. Scott wasn't so much going "bezerk" as he was acting "erratically". But then we learned the definition of "erratic" might be a store customer trying to figure out if a water bottle fit into a container prior to purchasing the water bottles.
And then Metro said they couldn't release the 911 tapes until the inquest. Of course, that was followed by Cpt. Neville releasing excerpts of the 911 tape to the media in an attempt to justify the shooting.
And then Metro said that the eyewitnesses they interviewed confirmed that Scott drew and pointed his gun at officers and that they weren't aware of any contradictory accounts. Of course, that was followed by a local newspaper publishing four eyewitness accounts of people that said they never saw Scott point his weapon at officers--including one person that said they had given their statement to the police.
You know what I'd really like? I'd really, really just like to see the videotape.
By the way, does anyone know how that little video project is coming along?
@ martin9 - "unfortunately, the gun nuts never get it, guns gotten for personal safety overwhelmingly are used by spouses against another, to settle drunken arguments, children find them and play, people in despair take their life, etc. etc.
they are almost never needed for the intended use, personal safety."
I noticed you responded to a part of your post, but not to this part. As it was earlier noted; this is very incorrect. Not to be rude, but please do your research before posting statements like this.
I teach firearms classes and I have the real numbers as reported by the FBI on gun stats and very few children are killed accidentally by finding and playing with guns. There are many more accidental drownings, electrocutions, poisonings and obviously auto accidents that kill children.
I carry a firearm now for the same reason I carried one as a former officer. To save lives. over 6,000 crimes are stopped every day in the US by the mere presence of a firearm and very few of those ever result in the discharge of that firearm or result in a death of an offender if they are actually shot.
No offense, but facts support armed societies. D.C. just recently lifted the firearms ban and the new stats for 2009 reported that they have experienced more than 25% in crime reduction.
In this particular case, I think it was a bad shoot. I think the media has reported incorrectly for ratings and a good man lost their life because of poor decisions by officers.
I'll be interested to see the videos and if they confirm my suspicions.
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i feel for the scott's families and i hope that justice will be serve because justice wasn't serve for me in 2008 when i lost my son the same way.god bless
"If the three police officers are reading any of this blog than it is your duty to come out and speak."
j1979,
You know very little about the legal system, and even less about the equipment in the Metro police cars.
The officers involved are NOT ALLOWED to discuss the incident, unless it is with council, or investigators.
There are NO cameras in the Metro police cars...
I really love all the folks that are taking the media's word for what happened like it is gospel...
Look at any major disaster in America and see who the first people that the media finds to put on tv, most are the toothless rednecks, and uneducated fools who's mom and dad were brother and sister. Then perhaps a few educated true witnesses to the incident are interviewed.
In this case, only a handful of people have been even talked to by the media that were there.
How many were really witnesses?
How many others gave statements in the parking lot that day that were witnesses?
Do you think for even a minute that for every person that talked to the media, that there will be several others that will tesitfy at the inquest that were real witnesses?
When you have given a statement in an incident like this, you are asked NOT to talk to the media...Once you do, you lose a lot of credibility. Like Trevon Cole's babys momma...She was adament that she saw him get shot...Hmmm kinda hard when she was in the walk in closet...No credibility.
StraightShooter just refers to my conservative nature and insistence that others try to always do the right thing. These cops unnecessarily put themselves in harms way. I've followed many of these shootings over the years, and it's clear that our kids are receiving many wrong messages as they grow up. We're losing sight of right and wrong and it's costing us all dearly. We have parents who now believe that it's OK to dress (and in some cases even tattoo) their kids in the same silly, and intimidating costumes that they sport, damaged parents who seem to be wrestling with wounded-inner-child issues, and act like 10-year-olds in adult bodies, talk about a need to "man-up". So, what do we do with people who are losing a respect for genuine authority, and who have misconstrued the meaning of the bumper sticker; "Question Authority" to mean; run from the cops if caught doing wrong. Imagine, we now have 3rd/4th generation drug dealing families amongst us, imagine your great grandfather a drug dealer, and maybe he even died in a deal gone bad. Well this recent shooting of a seemingly "straight shooter" goes to show you that we are on the wrong path as a society, the; if-it-feels-good-just-do-it mentality just doesn't get it any more. Erik Scott, by most appearances was a stand up guy, with, like most of us, a little dirty laundry tuck away. He made one big mistake, and that was to question authority after his public tirade. Erik should have complied with cops. It's not hard for a smart X military man to know when danger is near. The cops should have taken up a position away from him, HE HAD A GUN? AND A COP TAPPED HIM ON THE SHOULDER? not smart.
The mixed messages that parents now teach regarding good guy bad guy, and the hast of the cops to "gain immediate law enforcement control of the scene" was a recipe for disaster. Parents should teach your children self control, and compliance with laws and the cops, Police Chiefs, teach your officers to avoid known gun wielding suspects up close, if this guy was a deadly danger, then the cops should have fled to safety, remember, if we all have a right to use deadly force if our life is in danger, then all must act responsibility, and use it as a last resort, and not to dispense instant street justice. There is a time and place to "tap" a suspect on the shoulder, this was not one of those times, a linebacker style take down of this military-man-gone-bad may have been more in order. I say these cops get a pass this time, for they will have plenty of time to reflect on, and agonize over any well intentioned mistakes that may or may not have been made that tragic day.