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Thursday, March 7, 2013 | 2:01 a.m.
Another view?
View more of the Las Vegas Sun's opinion section:
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My concern is with the Clark County School District. Anyone over the age of 40 remembers that classroom sizes in elementary school always had at least 30 students and the teachers had no problem with teaching and control.
I don’t know why they are crying now about class sizes, because all the teachers do is put each kid in front of a computer and turn them loose. Why bother having teachers at all?
Also, back then, classes had parents or college students learning to be teachers help in the classrooms.
Stop the whining and go back to the “good old days” and teach the kids with your minds and hands.
E-schools are the future - less get on with it
The new superintendent must show he or she can move into the future and properly use our resources
The course lectures could be taught by only the very best highly effective teachers (live or podcast).
Students can ask questions on-line during class with a cadre of experts to mentor and answer them. This can be both electronic or verbal.
Class participation authentication and testing can be electronically monitored. Proctoring Testing can be done at the school when absolutely required.
Okay, Kathi Mentlik, your letter to the editor is duly noted.
Now, the masses of parents and their children need to stop placing blame on teachers, by ceasing their complaining of the school district, and begin to take full responsibility of what their youngsters are, or, are not accomplishing in their school.
Another "The Teachers are Worthless" letter?
Many of my friends are educators, you want change?
Allow the children to be flunked.
Have them HAVE to repeat a year, or two, or three. It will give you data on the families and teachers that are challenged.
If Juanny and Suzie are in danger of repeating classes the parents will need to get busy.
We will need a special school for kids who habitually flunk, cause we can't have 13 year old Markus in class with 8 year old Britney.
The solution can be simple.
Allow the teacher the latitude to say "Sorry kid, you are not ready for the next hurdle in life, time for a do-over. After 5 years of this the high schools will get high school ready students.
Next.
In "the good old days" students didn't have cell phones and ipods. Parents cared about what the student was doing in school. Students cared about their education. Special needs students were in separate classrooms away from general education students. Students were tracked into college and non-college programs of study. Standardized testing was done once per year to measure progress. No Child Left Behind, which mandates all students are proficient and at grade level didn't exist. School discipline was effective and supported by parents. If you got in trouble in school, you got in even more trouble at home. Teachers planned lessons to meet the needs of their students, and were not forced to follow some pacing guide that said on this date you must teach this even if the students weren't ready.
Are those the "good old days" you remember?
This letter shows there are deficiencies one can expect to experience from being in a class of 30 students in "the good old days".
Kathi,
I commend you for your efforts in volunteering either at your child's school or a local school. You are spot on in noticing that every classroom has a full set of computers, one for each eager child, and that teachers are really of no value. With the help of motivated community volunteers like yourself, the dream of every child excelling will finally come to fruition and CCSD can rid itself of many useless teachers! How many days per week do you and others volunteer?
I agree with you Jeff. However, we also must look closely at what causes the child to fail. Those must be removed and mitigated otherwise, the child will be forever catching up.
Simply retaining a child is not sufficient. He is already at a disadvantage. There must be laser-like interventions targeting the very specific deficiencies causing the failure. Some of these deficiencies require time and some require little miracles.
Didn't I recently hear the former Clark County School District Superintendent, Dwight Jones who makes $340,000 per year, say class size is not a deal breaker for learning?
CarmineD
I urge any of you proposing to 'reform' schools to spend at least a grading cycle (nine weeks) with a teacher. Come to my classroom, if you are that concerned. Shadow me everyday. After that, write your recommendation. This way, you will have 'empirical evidence' to back you up.
For now, I would refrain from commenting lest....
I'm in favor of spending targeted funds to give minorities the help and resources necessary to graduate high school. I hail from a state(Texas) that has a higher high school graduation rate among Hispanics at 81% versus 53% here in Nevada. Texas focuses much better on Hispanics from Mexico learning english which helps Hispanics learn and graduate high school. In 2010-2011, Texas allocated $500 million in state and federal funding for dropout prevention and recovery initiatives. We need to make effort to improve the graduation rates for Nevada minority students: Blacks =43%,Hispanics=53% and limited English-proficient students=29%.
Let's stop ignoring the need. Nevadans would support increased education funding that would identify and help those who need help graduating from high school.
Is this letter sarcasm or an exercise in free association?
HellaJaacked said:
"You are spot on in noticing that every classroom has a full set of computers, one for each eager child, and that teachers are really of no value."
I ask the teachers here:
Is this an honest statement made above?
When I was a kid, there were 26 students in my kindergarten class, 21 in my 1st grade class, 28 in my 4th grade class, and 29 in my 6th grade class. Nothing has changed since those days except for parents who make excuses for their children, do not back up the teacher when it comes to disruptive behavior from their child, do not expect their child to do homework, etc.
Look at any child who is doing well in school and there is a parent behind them, working with the teacher, and expecting their child to put forth the effort.
Nancy said:
"I agree with you Jeff. However, we also must look closely at what causes the child to fail. Those must be removed and mitigated otherwise, the child will be forever catching up."
I say:
When I spoke about the data to utilize to find the problems your recommendations were my assumption, within financial reason.
Well, Jeff, it depends on what "full set" means...if it means one per child then the answer is no. If it means 4:31 then the answer is yes. If it means all of the computers are up to date and can handle running District programs, then the answer is no. If it means the computer lab has more than 28 computers for 31 kids and no one is doubled up, then the answer is no. I echo and extend the invitation...contact me and come visit my second grade classroom. Watch and learn for just ONE week and then tell me how YOU would improve what I am doing day in and day out for kids...and that includes the ELL, special needs, and low income students. Come and see...I dare you. Or as my kids would say...I double dog dare you.
Decades ago children behaved in school. Their parents taught them how to behave at home -- growing up. In other words parents parented. It was much easier for teachers to teach back then. Their were some exceptions though. Those kids were expelled from school.
Moral of this story? We can learn from the past.
Go visit your neighborhood school for a day, or better, a week. Get first hand experience.
As Commenter Tanker1975 noted, "In "the good old days" students didn't have cell phones and ipods. Parents cared about what the student was doing in school. Students cared about their education. Special needs students were in separate classrooms away from general education students. Students were tracked into college and non-college programs of study. Standardized testing was done once per year to measure progress. No Child Left Behind, which mandates all students are proficient and at grade level didn't exist. School discipline was effective and supported by parents. If you got in trouble in school, you got in even more trouble at home. Teachers planned lessons to meet the needs of their students, and were not forced to follow some pacing guide that said on this date you must teach this even if the students weren't ready.
Are those the "good old days" you remember?"
I remember those "good old days" well. Education today and the "good old days" are very different. Special needs students were serviced at separate facilities, not in the regular ed classrooms in the past. We need to really look at how appropriate it is to place some of these students in a regular ed classroom where they disrupt day in, day out, and are NON-productive/NOT thriving.
Precious few classrooms have computers for each student, usually there are 3-5 in each classroom, and half of those are working properly. Many young children tend to zone out and lose attention to presecribed educational programs, so engagement with technology depends on the child. There are children who do not respond nor learn from computers, and they do require direct instruction in order to progress. Online classroom education would be best served on a case by case evaluation of each student, with continuous monitoring.
To Kathi Mentlik, I have taught large classes in the past. You need to understand that it can work under the right conditions, and very few Nevada public schools possess such nurturing conditions. It does work when you have parent involvement, as that is KEY. Teachers are supported, and class performance are superb. Good luck finding that at all the schools here in Las Vegas.
Blessings and Peace,
Star
@Carmine. The person you are thinking about is Dr. Guthrie, the state superintendent of schools. He was appointed by the governor. He has repeatedly said that class size is not nearly as important as the quality of the teacher in the classroom. He has also said that advanced degrees don't have much of an impact on a teacher's skills. Yet, he has several. He spent the vast majority of his time in education working in a college environment. He has also been on record as saying that the best teachers should be paid 100K+.
SheilaCatherine said:
"Come and see...I dare you. Or as my kids would say...I double dog dare you."
I say:
That was not my assertion, it was offered at 5:15 by hellajacked.
I am a backer of the teachers and the teachers union in Las Vegas.
I did not believe "that every classroom has a full set of computers, one for each eager child" and wanted a teacher to clear up that issue.
It looks like only a class visiting the library would have complete access so, roughly 35 x 5 classes per day out of 1500 kids has this luxury daily?
I'm over 50 and never attended a class greater than 25 students did you grow up overseas ? I think your shilling for stingy corporate creeps- stop complaining and pay some taxes.
My time in K-12 spans from the late 50s to 1971 when I graduated high school. During that time there were some definite changes being made in the school district's thoughts on how a child should be educated.
Specifically, allowing corporal punishment, having "A" and "B" groups in classes, and holding children back for failure basically disappeared.
Many of those teaching today are the product of the "kinder, gentler" philosophy that was being put in place in the late 60s and throughout the 70s. Some might be the second-generation if they finished their training after 2000.
We are now seeing the result of a loss of discipline not just in the children, but in the system itself which stems from those early changes.
Jeff:
It cost about $10,000 to retain a child. This is hidden expense because the child simply stays in the same grade. It simply increases the number of children who will be in that grade level. Last year, we retained over 20 first graders, increasing our class loads to 22-24 per teacher. These are 6-7-year olds who are just learning to read.
Most of these children are ELL, some are cognitively challenged, some have not learned structure, some have only TVs and computer games for babysitters thus having woefull deficits in attention. There are about four or five who are 'ready' to learn how to read. Instead of spending that $10,000 to retain a child, we should opt for intensive intervention to make that child catch up.
After the age of three, if a child did not have any literacy experiences, that child is already behind. When he comes to Kindergarten at five, he, in effect is already five years behind.
For that child to succeed, intensive intervention must begin there. But, we have upwards to 35 in Kindergarten and now 22 and upwards in first grade.
Retention is NOT an answer. Better education policies are.
ASadTeacher,
I would much rather pay the $10,000 to retain a child at the elementary school level than pay the $50,000 or more to put them in prison when they are a teen or young adult.
You are missing the point boftx. If you don't get it, here it is.
Retention costs billions of dollars in one single year all over the United States. The 10,000 is only for one child. Let us spend that money on preventive measures instead of cures. We do not have to retain any child if we mitigate deficiencies at a very early age. We can also spend some of that money to teach parents how to help their children at home and educate them on what to do to help them succeed at home and in life.
We can also spend some of that in restrucuturing our curriculum to teach parenting skills as early as middle school, all the way to high school, even in college.
Too many become parents without any clue about the responsibilities that go along with becoming one. We require licenses to cut hair, do nails, drive a car, etc. yet ANYONE can have a child and shirks responsibilities without as much as a pat on the wrist.
I stay after school to tutor children for free because I know they won't make it if I don't. I talked to their parents and there is not much hope there. Not only do I have to teach them how to read, I have to help them with homework, how to be organized, how to be responsible with their school work, how to respect school materials and property, and how to work hard.
If I only teach them how to read, teaching would be a breeze. But in these times, teaching academics is only the tip of the iceberg. This generation is so deficient in many respects, sometimes I wonder if schools can even meet what they need to get ready for the world.
Blaming teachers and schools for low graduation rates is really myopic. The social ills that plague us are deeper and more serious.
If we want to reform education, we must look at where it begins and where it happens and it's not just schools.
I remember the good old days too. We had to raise our hand to be recognized, ask for permission to speak, and if granted, we rose to a standing position and spoke; kids now blurt from their chairs when the spirit moves them.
let's jump out for a second and picture a better world, a world where information has been digitized and made accessible so a kid can listen to Aristotle and Socrates hash it out, check out the battle of the the cheeseburgers at the local corner. and then find out when Leroy MacGruder and the Tutors are playing at the Fox, all in 2:57 seconds without making much noise at all.
Th technology, folks, it changes night and day and releases curiosity and snowballing potential like nothing in history, and this is the Information Age.
Tell me one more time how many months of grade levels we lose every summer Johnnie and Maria don't read or write or learn!!
And when they take control of their destinies, something happens. This whole pile of crap becomes real, and it's THEIR pile a crap, and they're takin responsibility for their futures, so mom and dad are done, baby. Kick back and watch 'em go!
Ummm...my post was a satirical response to a farcical letter.
boftx makes a good point too, Nancy. Either retain them or pay and pay and pay.
It's not the just the life in the lost column we pay for; it's also the loss of their contribution, of their joy and community empowerment.
And then on top of the loss we gotta pay cops to track em down after they did their natural deeds, pay courts and lawyers to pass him onto corrections and parole and on and on.
Plus the damage done and the botched lives of those whose worlds were crashed by some crazed intruder. The echoes of our failures are not easy to get our arms around, and boftx's point is upon Nevada like stink on yellow snow. We all drink from the same canteen.
When I was 21, one of my students came to me, of all approachable people in her terrified world, and announced she was pregnant and scared to death.
She was a sophomore, 1970, northern California. I sure learned alot that day. She was one fine kid. Her thoughts ran from shame and fear to pride and expectations for a way better life for that little tiny beating heart within her.
I think if our kids had more love and fewer toys, they could handle a bit more stress, take some responsibility for their eventual totally self-directed empowerment, and choose a direction or two and see what fits their expectations best.
Once when this knocked-up feeling surrounds your life, it's too late. You'll likely already be thinking mommy thoughts. Get ready first.
Unfortunately for too many, we don't have a quiz and a pass word for nooky. Until such time, we are like Smoky the Bear just standing in the smoke and coughing, uttering something like "Only you .. (hack, hack, cough, cough) ..can prevent forest fires!"
Thank you Kathi. I too am fed up with the cries for more money for teachers, not for student needs. The budgets include funds for EVERYTHING but teachers and THEIR ARBITRATORS have taken it all. I was in public K-12 with 33-35 students per class--baby boom 10-15 years after end of WWII. I was also among MANY ELL'S who were LEGAL immigrants, wanted to learn English, wanted to be PART OF OUR CULTURE, wanted to be Americans, didn't want to change this nation into Mexico. ELL's did NOT get any extra funding but ELL's did d**n well because they were motivated. It is disgusting that we spend $12,000 to $16,000 per student per year--we spend more than $1,000 per student per year MORE THAN ARIZONA where they get graduates who can read and write and where they have more ELL's than Vegas. If "educators" can't figure out how to provide K-12, cut back to basics with larger class sizes--teach reading, writing, arithmetic. END TENURE.
FYI: You math whizzes, not: CCSD / Nevada spends more for K-12 BECAUSE we overpay teachers compared to Arizona, Utah, Idaho, New Mexico....and Nevada is LOW cost of living.
Part 2:
Students were randomly chosen to participate in the NAEP test. 1 day out of class.
Now, here comes the SBAC. (Google it.) The English dept started this week. They've been at it for 3 days and are still not done. I can't even fathom what the math is going to look like. And if you're wondering, yes, it's computer based. You count the weeks without access to computers.
Then we go on spring break, come back for a week and it's CRT time!! 4-6 half days on that test. Let's be honest, there's no such thing as half days on high stakes test day. You try to focus kids for a shortened 30 minute period. Another 4-6 days of instruction lost.
We are not whining and we are not afraid of your tests or accountability. But this reform idealogy of "testing is the way to improve test scores" is absolutely insane!! Just keep repeating that to yourself. Testing improves test scores. Maybe you'll be like the RHEEformers and believe it, we don't.
So...start teaching?? PLEASE! We are BEGGING YOU TO LET US TEACH!!
Stop complaining? No. Not until this testing frenzy ends. And we'll get louder and louder about it. It's harmful to all but the test making companies.
Roslenda: I have been reading your comments for quite some time. Jump the shark. You clearly feel AZ, UT, (blah, blah, blah) have superior educational systems and do this with far less funding. HOORAY!!! MOVE THERE.
Sorry, Jeff...I didn't mean to give you the impression I was talking to you but I meant to address the latter part of my comment to the letter writer!!! My apologies!!!!
Part 1 of my reply to Kathi has disappeared. I don't have the time or energy to rewrite. But it's ok. After reading @roslenda, I realized I forgot to mention something.
I wanted Kathi to realize that teachers are not whining. The LV Sun editors coined it better when they said we are complainers. Of course we are. We're teachers, we value children and education. WHen we see something harming them we speak up. Call it complaining. Call it whatever you want. I don't care. The amount of time AND MONEY spent on standardized tests is eating away precious instruction time and a WAY TOO MUCH MONEY ROSLENDA!! A lot more than AZ spends on their students. For tests, not education. There's a difference.
Dear Roslenda,
We ALL have halcyon memories of "the good old days" when everything and everyone seemed better. Though not as dated as your memories, my memory seems to recall better days too. The norm at my grade school was 35 kids per class. But then again...I had no minorities in my school. They stayed on the West Side of town. I had no special education students in my class. They were all at Helen J. I had no ELL students in my class but I recall seeing them helping their dads when they showed up to maintain our school grounds. I don't believe those segregated from the education I had would recall those days with the same rosy glow...and I bet those segregated kids from your past wouldn't either.
@Roslenda. Do you remember hearing about this decision? February 2013, Arbitrator rules CCSD teachers MUST GIVE UP MOVEMENT ON SALARY SCHEDULE, AND TAKE PAY CUTS. Here's the link to the story.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/feb...
One more time, please provide links to support your claims. I can't find any data that supports you.
Tanker, et al:
Let us focus on the issue. Please do not get sidetracked by ignorant comments.
Education policies are individual states' decision and based on different principles, fiscal, and political climate.
People spouting false claims and ignorant comments do nothing but spread contempt to divert us from focusing on more intelligent and logical discussions. Their claims to have knowledge of education were based on working as a janitor in a school, in a Department of Ed office, having a teacher for a girlfriend, or a neighbor who is a teacher.
We know who we are, our abilities and capabilities, and what we do everyday. It is vital that we keep telling the public these truths and not get the discourse bogged down by responding to idiotic comments.
Thank you for caring enough to let the truth be heard. PRESS ON.
Nancy,
IMHO not retaining kids not ready for the next grade level is like throwing a kid in a pool that can't swim.
They will drown.
The idea for parenting classes would work, if the kids can read and reason by then.
To those who comment about reforming education, please educate yourself of the issues. Choose any school. Shadow a teacher for a few weeks. It has to be a few weeks because you need to observe the process of assessments, grading, preparing progress reports, conferencing with parents and administrators, planning lessons, preparation of materials, delivery of lessons, interventions, grading of papers, tutoring, attending meetings, facilitating extra-curricular activities, playground and lunchroom duties, cleaning your own classroom, and buying supplies with your own money.
After that, you may write any way you want. Then at least you have something to back you up.
You think you're up to it? Scared?
Sadness: Get over the self-importance of K-12 teachers. We do NOT need to have constant class room experience to know you're NOT doing the job. I echo Jeff that "not retaining kids not ready for the next grade level is LIKE THROWING A KID (WHO) CAN'T SWIM, (INTO A POOL.)
Heads still in the sand, huh. Many of us were/are in K12 education and have SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT'S NOT going on--lack of classroom educational activity while many teachers network, do THEIR paperwork and "research", and yes, some time is put into paperwork/administration--you know, the paperwork you CLAIM IS DONE ON YOUR OWN TIME. OK, let's again point out that many teachers and administrators are doing WHAT THEY CAN--but that just isn't adequate. Inadequate staff must be replaced.
@Roslenda. Follow Sad teacher for a week. She teaches in an elementary school. Or follow me, I teach in a high school. Based on your vast experience, I would like your advice on how to do my job better.
Since you are such an expert in education, I hear there is a job opening in CCSD. Why don't you apply.
Tanker and Sad Teacher. Can Roslenda follow me too? This way we give her the full K-12 experience? I teach in a middle school. Math. She wouldn't make it to 6th grade lunch.
With all due respect to Nancy A, whose opinion I respect:
I do believe in retaining kids. Yes, there should be better language acquisition instruction, but if that is not working, passing kids on is not helping them, either. Sitting in a class for which you do not have the skills is not a good thing.
"I stay after school to tutor children for free because I know they won't make it if I don't."
Great for those who do, but there are some of us who need to have some kind of life outside our jobs, who have part-time jobs, who have family, or who simply don't believe we should be working 70 or 80 hours a week for 45K and little hope of more. Unfortunately, the public has come to EXPECT teachers to stay after school and tutor their kids for free, which is unreasonable. The teacher saint is not a reasonable paradigm - we desperately need a better one.