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Saturday, Dec. 8, 2012 | 2:01 a.m.
Another view?
View more of the Las Vegas Sun's opinion section:
• Editorials - the Sun's viewpoint.
• Columnists - local and syndicated writers.
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Have your own opinion? Write a letter to the editor.
President Barack Obama and the left are salivating over the November election results.
Tax revenues and entitlement programs are the principle topics in the so-called “fiscal cliff” conflict that faces negotiators from both parties. Elections have consequences, and the Democrats are not showing any signs of compromising on either taxes or entitlement programs.
Obama and his team are entrenched over a tax rate hike on those earning over $250,000 a year and are refusing to alter either Social Security or Medicare.
The leftist base is seeking large cuts in defense spending. This at a time when a declining America is facing increasing threats around the globe. The plunge into a second-rate socialist society is occurring, and that’s a shame.
If Obama is successful, the debt crisis will balloon and prompt another downgrade in America’s debt rating, and Obama marches forward in a reckless path that leads to the further fiscal and strategic collapse of the nation.
Close to half of Americans are in disagreement with this path. Nevertheless, this is a democracy, and the consequences of the election are having their effects. The United States is now a decidedly liberal, left-of-center nation, and the majority of voters seem to like it that way. We must all bear the dire consequences.
"This at a time when a declining America is facing increasing threats around the globe"
Bob - As I remember, if we lost Vietnam, the Communists would take all of Southeast Asia and beyond. Today, Vietnam is challenging China for oil rights in the China Sea.
Iraq never had an atomic bomb project, never had chemical weapons stockpiles, never threatened America, yet the Iraq war was more costly than World War II in 2012 dollars. In both cases, this country fought a war of attrition against imaginary enemies. The Bush government had no capability to understand any other culture except Texas and the Bible.
The GOP is constructing imaginary enemies because they have no diplomatic capability and want to use the military as a negotiating tool.
The real issue is, that paranoia has been a part of the American experience since the Colonial days and if the country doesn't mature, more difficult times lay ahead.
Well as Obama tells us every day "I Won"
Obama wants to go over the cliff
This will allow him to get all the taxes from the middle class while still blaming the conservatives.
Obama won so we get higher taxes on everyone, massive increase in dependency spending, another $6 trillion in Debt.
Meanwhile no jobs
As Obama says "Shake it off. Stop complainin'. Stop grumblin'. Stop cryin'. Start Taxin'. "
Mr. Jack,
The democratic party did a better job of canvassing votes for the 2012 election. Unions spent over $3 billion dollars from 2006 to 2011 on political activities which is typically "get out the vote" initiatives plus they spent $1 billion on funding campaigns. Business and pro-free market groups do not have prolific and effective "get out the vote" organizations. But the firewall to full-fledged socialism is state governments which have gone pro-business and pro-free market for many years now.
I caught this Gallup poll the other day conducted after the election. It is a political ID poll that records either a positive or negative view to certain terms. Republicans and democrats still diverge on positive views of capitalism(republicans 72%/democrats 55%) and favorable views of socialism (republicans 23%/ democrats 53%). IMHO, we diverge on the proper role of government in our lives. How much government do we need and what decision-making power should they have over our lives? I saw this
article the other day about French President believing that eliminating student homework will benefit the underprivileged students:
"French President Francois Hollande is planning to eliminate homework for elementary and junior high school students is drawing criticism from the very folks it was supposed to help -- poor people. The socialist leader who came into office in May argued that homework hurts kids from poor and troubled homes. But as Hollande's administration implements the new rule, poor families and their advocates say underprivileged kids need the structure and purpose that homework provides.
"Poor people want homework because they know that school is very important, and the only chance -- the only possibility -- they have to give their children a better life is if their children succeed at school," Emmanuel Davidenkoff, editor-in-chief of L'Etudiant, a magazine and website devoted to French school and education, told NPR.
Hollande says that homework favors wealthy families because they are more likely to have the time and ability to support and supervise their children's after-school efforts."
How much decision-making control should we give our government/government officials over our lives? There are two distinct views on the proper size and scope of government here in America.
French President Plan to Write-Off Homework Draws Criticism http://newsdeskinternational.wordpress.c...
Gallup Poll
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158978/democr...
Letter writer may be right. President and country is moving down the leftward road. But not for long. Never underestimate the intelligence of Americans. As soon as you do, they'll surprise you. That is IF the GOP has the guts to stand firm on principle and not give away the farm [read country] in the name of political popularity.
CarmineD
I understand that for the hard core conservative correspondents like Carmine D, Bob Jack and Jerry Fink the election looks like a leftward move. The United States has, for quite some time, had primarily a centrist political and governance system when compared with the pantheon of Western industrial democracies or democratic republics. The big problem for conservatives in the United States is that they have a fine stable of think tanks and policy wonks but they have had minimal success in governing nationally. As Re points out they have had or have the opportunity to establish themselves at the state level but so far that has been a mixed bag. In addition, it is a far different thing with different rules and policy implications to run a state than it is to run the nation.
Entitlement programs have ZERO to do with the Fiscal Cliff. They have no involvement in the question immediately in front of us.
The writer has previously expressed views that some would describe as far right. So it should come as no surprise that he sees the country as left of center. Even the center can look distant from his perspective.
It should come as no surprise that a political creed that favors tax cuts for millionaires, pay cuts for teachers, and cuts in Medicare and Social Security benefits is a tough sell.
Bob Jack, North Las Vegas,
What have been the benefits of being controlled by the "Right"?
Either party will control the country at some point. What would you prefer, a party that benefits the many, or a party that benefits the few?
Mr. Jack, are you part of the "Few" or part of the "Many"?
"What we have done is kicked this can down the road. We are now at the end of the road and are not in a position to kick it any further. We have to signal seriousness in this by making sure some of the hard decisions are made under my watch, not someone else's. ... You have to have a president who is willing to spend some political capital on this. And I intend to spend some."
-- President-elect Barack Obama, Jan. 15, 2009, to the Washington Post editorial board on his commitment to reform Medicare, which he called "unsustainable," and Social Security.
Obama, Pelosi and Reid should present their spending cuts proposal. If they don't propose any spending cuts then we'll know they were never serious about resolving our fiscal issues and growing our economy. There are zero plans from democrats so far on how to rein in entitlement costs, the main driver of our debt. Our current deficit is $1.1 trillion so we're not even paying for what we spend today. We can't keep ignoring our debt & deficits hoping they both go away or we die off without having to face the problem ourselves. In 1990, total government spending was $2.05 trillion which is near the total of entitlement spending now in 2012. So entitlement costs passed our total government spending of 22 years ago. In 2008, total government spending was $3.03 trillion and the projected entitlement cost in 2021 is $3.2 trillion so entitlement costs will eclipse total government spending in 13 years which is 9 fewer years. Entitlement costs are simply unsustainable.
Democrats must put tax and entitlement reform on the table in order to address our tax revenue and spending issues. I'm sure Obama fears a backlash from his liberal left base should he put forward spending cuts that liberals don't agree with but he must face reality that government spending is out of control and must be reigned in because there is not enough rich people to tax to cover deficit spending. If government spending stays as is on its current trajectory then tax increases on the middle class would result.
Entitlements costs then/now/future(projected by CBO):
1990 = $984 Billion
2012 = $2.4 Trillion($2,400 billion)
2021 = $3.2 Trillion(3,200 billion)
Total Government Spending
1990 = $2.05 Trillion
2008 = $3.03 Trillion
"The United States is now a decidedly liberal, left-of-center nation, and the majority of voters "
Here are some facts that may collide with that statement.
The majority of the voters decided to re-elect Republicans to stay control of the House.
The majorjity of the voters decided to increase the number of Republicans in the Senate.
The majority of the voters decided to increase the number of Republicans of governors to 30.
The majority of the voters decided to increase the number of state legislatures controlled by Republicans to 26.
The majority of the voters decided to give Republicans super control of state legislatures to 6 new states to add to that total.
The majority of the voters did re-elect Obama but at a small scale of victory than his first attempt.
Democrats had a very harsh treatment in the last non-presidential election cycle and will probably get the same treatment in the next one.
The needle did not move that much. One could even argue that it tilted toward Republicans very slightly when looking at whole picture.
But is true Obama has some momentum. I doubt it will last long. He will eventually entered into a lame duck mode.
Salivating? Nah, trying to ruin the other party if it does not become more mature in its economic policies, yeah.
Tax Revenues are in need of adjustment and as has been pointed out in repetitive agony by the right wing posters here, is not enough to fix the current problems we have. But it is an important component.
Entitlement reform is long past due. The capital gains entitlement, the tax breaks for foreign profits, and the tariff system for American job displacement need to be revamped first (Why should a guy like Romney pay 13% and not work, while a hard working surgeon pays 35%) A dollar is a dollar. If republicans embrace THAT entitlement reform, we can talk about medicare and social security if it still need fixing after the modifications I have outlined are adopted. Before we ask grannie to pay more for her pills and to wait an extra year or two to begin her retirement the playing field needs to be a leveled. All money increased to your benefit is treated the same, then let's see where we are.
The writer of the letter said "Obama and his team are entrenched over a tax rate hike on those earning over $250,000 a year" -- When you run on an issue, and Obama RAN ON THIS ISSUE, the winning party expects results. Should Obama say, "Hey, the election is over, I was kidding, keep your tax rates like Bush had em, and when can we start cutting medicare and social security?" That is preposterous.
The leftist base you refer to is middle class America. Hate it or love it, they don't as a whole, buy your henny penny the sky is falling rhetoric. A peace dividend is owed to the American people, but even more so to it's veterans, who are a big casualty in this war on terror.
Regarding becoming a second rate socialist society, if that does happen, it will be these people's fault:
"In Robert Draper's book, "Do Not Ask What Good We Do:
Inside the U.S. House of Representatives" Draper wrote that during a four hour, "invitation only" meeting with GOP Hate-Propaganda Minister, Frank Luntz, the below listed Senior GOP Law Writers literally plotted to sabotage, undermine and destroy America's Economy.
The Guest List:
Frank Luntz - GOP Minister of Propaganda
Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI)
Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA)
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA),
Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX),
Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX),
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI)
Rep. Dan Lungren (R-CA),
Sen. Jim DeMint (SC-R),
Sen. Jon Kyl (AZ-R),
Sen. Tom Coburn (OK-R),
Sen. John Ensign (NV-R) and
Sen. Bob Corker (TN-R).
Non-lawmakers present Newt Gingrich
These Republican members of Congress were not simply airing their complaints regarding the other party's political platform for four long hours. No, these Republican Congressional Policymakers, who were elected to do 'the People's work' were literally plotting to sabotage, undermine and destroy the U.S. Economy."
Yes it is true that close to half of Americans are in disagreement with this path. We are willing to work with you, not willing to let you use your 50% to shut down America.
Here are the top ten things republicans don't want you to know:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/06...
The Republicans' "Job Creators" Don't Create Jobs
Raising Upper-Income Tax Rates Won't Hurt the Economy
Low Capital Gains Tax Rates Drive Income Inequality, Not Investment
Income Inequality is at an 80-Year High ...
... While the Total Federal Tax Burden is at a 60-Year Low
Tax Cuts Don't Pay for Themselves
Closing Tax Loopholes Can't Pay for Lower Rates and Just Hit the Rich
The Estate Tax Has Virtually No Impact on Family Farms and Businesses
The National Debt? Republicans Built That
There Really Isn't a Fiscal Cliff
Dire consequences?
How about McConnell filibustering himself this week:
"McConnell tried to attach it as an amendment to unrelated bill the Senate was currently working on, and Reid said no. But Reid did a quick head count and found he had 51 Senators who would support the bill as a stand alone. So he offered it. Seeing his little attempt at political theater disintegrate before him, all McConnell had left to do was filibuster, and object to his own bill getting an up or down vote.
http://youtu.be/vfenXNi9HcI
That's McConnell making history again with the filibuster. Not only has he led more filibusters during his minority leadership than any other senator in history, he's now on record as one of very few senators ever to filibuster himself."
What could possibly make for a stronger case for reforming the filibuster?
"We all must watch as U.S. moves left"..... All I know is I's a working stiff, and working stiffs is Democrats. Harry Reid is da best dang govnah Calif ever had. Now whered mi boma phone.
JeffFromVegas wrote "Why should a guy like Romney pay 13% and not work, while a hard working surgeon pays 35%".
Jeff, you want higher capital gains tax rates but why would a person risk losing all of his/her investment principle over a small return prospect?
The saying is true "if you tax it enough you'll get less of the activity".
Now, lets talk about the tax rates Americans actually pay. Below is a chart of the effective tax rate based on 2010 tax returns from the Tax Foundation:
Income level Range/Effective Tax Rate
$1-$15K = -14% (negative)
$15K-$30K = -5% (negative)
$30k-$50K= 3%
$50K-$100K = 8%
$100K-$250K = 13%
$250k-$1M = 22%
$1M or more = 23%
The average tax rate for all Americans is 10.1%. Those earning above $250K is 22%-23%, more than twice the national average. The average effective tax rate for those earning $30K or less is negative due to refundable credits.
The top 10% of wage earners pay 71% of all federal income taxes.
What is the objective to Obama's class warfare tax plan? Is it an $82 billion debt reduction plan or an $82 billion dollar stimulus? If it's a stimulus then how does it stimulate the economy? Does it lower the unemployment rate and if so, by how much? If it's a deficit reduction plan then we know already it will reduce the deficit from $1.1 trillion to $1.04 trillion which solves nothing.
Obama is just too frightened of his liberal left base to propose government spending cuts which are badly needed or he can't face the American people and state plainly that taxes must go up on everyone including the middle class due to our government's out-of-control spending. Obama needs to be honest about the situation.
Congratulations, Mr. Jack! Welcome to the real world.
I'm sure it was a painful experience but just one month after the reelection of President Obama you've reached the fifth and final stage of grieving -- that peaceful place called Acceptance.
Yes it's true. Maybe it's his skin color or maybe it's because he was hired to fix the mega-disaster left behind by his GOP predecessor.
It's unfortunate for conservatives but a majority of voters have seen what happens when republicans have control and quite frankly, its frightening to say the least. Call us crazy, but two long, mismanaged trillion dollar wars, plus the worst economy since the Depression does not reflect well on on conservatives.
The GOP has been maginalized by voters so it might be a good time to think about why the GOP has become so hateful and divisive.
Freeman:
You can keep putting lipstick on that pig til the end of time.
New World, new rules.
If you make 2 million sitting on your butt at home and the surgeon does the same saving lives, the surgeon and you pay the same taxes, and the surgeon risks more everyday than a hedge fund manager does in a lifetime.
Quit sucking your thumb.
Pay up.
@RefNV you have posted those very misleading stats on several thread, apparently under the delusions that misdirection printed numerous times becomes truth. I recognize that is the Republican bubble strategy, but it did not work for your soulmate Mitt and it won't work here.
Source: Center on Budget and Policy, IRS data, Heritage Foundation
Bottom 20% earners effective tax rate 16% federal, state and local combined
Next 20% earners effective tax rate 21% federal, state and local combined
Lower income folk pay a significantly greater proportion of their income in taxes even after adjusting for Earned Income credit, etc. For which, BTW, you can thank your sainted Reagan who understood that getting a dollar in circulation in the economy by folks who spend all that they earn was a pretty good idea,
Bob, I agree with you, per usual. The problem with the left is they keep believing what Obama says and ignore what he does. He tells us things are getting better and they believe him. If what they want is socialism, they should remember why folks came here from Europe in the first place and how America became the most powerful and advanced society in the world. I read his book "The Audacity of Hope" and understand where he is coming from and thats what scares me! I don't believe he has ever worked a day in his life for a private company, only for organizations like ACORN,
teaching, and Government so he has no idea about how to budget or run a business. God help us.
Jeff, great posts.
Real-time information on how Reid countered McConnell and out maneuvered his obstructionist ways. McConnell is a malaise on America!
What is more important is the information you provided at the end of your post Dec, 8 2012 at 7:15 am. That tells the story of how the Republicans and the republican advocate made a conscience decision to obstruct President Obama at ever turn, before the President stepped foot into the White House.
This is part of the "Special Treatment" the President has received from House Republicans and republican advocates, telling Americans the President is not one of us. He's different. So lets treat him differently. And they have treated him differently. From Joe Wilson shout of "You Lie" from the House chambers, to John Sinnunu saying, the President is "lazy" and "should learn how to be an American."
In the real world these type of actions are called having a Bias, having a Prejudice, or in the case of the First Black President, some see this as being a racist. Especially, when majority of the opposition against the President comes from elected officials and republican advocates from states formerly known as Slave States as defined from the Slave State map from 1854.
"The United States is now a decidedly liberal, left-of-center nation, and the majority of voters seem to like it that way. We must all bear the dire consequences."
Jack -- the opposite is alive and well and beating our children to death in the name of Biblical principles, as the Palmers recently demonstrated to us here. This seems to actually be a serious opinion among the biblethumpers, who want the death penalty for "rebellious children." Check that out @ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08...
"...this country fought a war of attrition against imaginary enemies. The Bush government had no capability to understand any other culture except Texas and the Bible."
SunJon -- amen to that!
"Being a conservative in America traditionally has meant that one holds a deep, abiding respect for the Constitution. We conservatives believe sincerely in the integrity of the Constitution. We treasure the freedom that document protects.... By maintaining the separation of church and state, the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars. Throughout our two hundred plus years, public policy debate has focused on political and economic issues, on which there can be compromise.... The great decisions of government cannot be dictated by the concerns of religious factions. This was true in the days of Madison, and it is just as true today. We have succeeded for 205 years in keeping the affairs of state separate from the uncompromising idealism of religious groups and we mustn't stop now. To retreat from that separation would violate the principles of conservatism and the values upon which the framers built this democratic republic." -- Barry Goldwater, US Senate Address, September 16, 1981
"RefNV you have posted those very misleading stats on several thread, apparently under the delusions that misdirection printed numerous times becomes truth." from Pat Hayes
Pat, the data is from the Tax Foundation. The source of data is the IRS.
Income level Range/Effective Tax Rate
$1-$15K = -14% (negative)
$15K-$30K = -5% (negative)
$30k-$50K= 3%
$50K-$100K = 8%
$100K-$250K = 13%
$250k-$1M = 22%
$1M or more = 23%
http://taxfoundation.org/article/putting...
Jeff,
McConnell's filibustering ways soon will be no more. In January 2013, the Senate will vote to change the filibuster rule. The new rules will requires a Senator to filibuster by talking instead of objecting. Currently, to stop a filibuster in the senate, you need 6o votes. Let see how long the Senate Republicans can talk after January.
One reason why Jim DeMint quit the Senate and ran away like a whipped puppy.
Dear Letter Writer,
And all of the Romney supporters.
Election is over. Romeny lost and he and his wife are having a rough time with said loss. You should stop the attack and try to help your hero.
Bob Jack - "This at a time when a declining America is facing increasing threats around the globe"
Paranoidal dribble! We still control global economics and the United States out spends by 58 percent of the total defense of the next 10 military powers, which includes Russia and China.
CarmineD - "Letter writer may be right. President and country is moving down the leftward road. But not for long. Never underestimate the intelligence of Americans."
Right, do not underestimate the intelligence of Americans which is exactly why President Obama won the election and not the forever flip flopping on issues Mitt Romney.
One day you people will wake up and realize that Republican ideology is off track and voters refuse to accept it. You can't insult American voters by rigging elections using voter fraud as an excuse. You can't insult women placing them in a secondary class citizenship status. You can't insult people in general stating some off the wall psuedo science and expect them to forgive in the voting booth. Boftx posted a comment last week about the GOP being too extreme because they were influenced by the religious right. He is right on target with that insight. Radicalism and extremism is killing the GOP and they refuse to acknowledge that fact.
LongTime:
McConnell is a pretty savvy investor (wink, wink, nod, nod) too.
On his income of $186,000 or so he has gone from a net worth of 3.1 million in 2004 to a net worth of 27.2 million in 2010.
No wonder he yearns for the Bush era tax cuts:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/politics/...
Read the whole article...
Meanwhile the people of Kentucky had a jobless rate on Jan. 31, 2004 of 5.90% and on Dec. 31, 2010 it was 10.00%.
Looks like Mitch is lookin out for number one.
"Right, do not underestimate the intelligence of Americans which is exactly why President Obama won the election"............... Good Grief, you're finally right, only one in ten Americans can even name a Supreme Court Justice or describe the Bill Of Rights. 84% of voters thought Alaska Governor Sarah Palin said she could see Russia from her front porch, 51% think Obama Care is free, there's your sign.
Jeff - Great 7:16 AM post!
Vernos wrote "We still control global economics and the United States out spends by 58 percent of the total defense of the next 10 military powers, which includes Russia and China."
As a percent of GDP, Russia spends 3.9% to 4.7% by the US. Lets trim the defense spending back to 4.0% of GDP but lets make sure we base our defense spending on projected future military capability requirements first and foremost.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.M...
Poor Bobby Jack.....
The little guy is still suffering a "melt down" despite the fact that the election was held one month ago........
Of course, he's not alone. Look at the many others right-wingers on this board who are crying in their beer and refusing to accept the fact that a MAJORITY of the voters decided to return President Obama to the White House for another four years...
Talk about a bunch of "sore losers." Ha! Ha! Ha!
Of course, several right-wingers are performing the "old Republican shuffle."
In other words, they're already predicting the demise of Obama and the Democrats and telling all of us that its only a matter of time until the American voters see the error of their ways and decide to return the GOP to power....
Hey, anyone who actually believes that, send me a PM....I have a bridge that I would love to sell you...
The butt kicking that the GOP received last month was in many ways very predictable. Many political strategist have said time and time again that the GOP has moved too far to the right as a party...
The recent election pretty much validates that....
Did any of you read Carmine's posts? The little guy is true to form. He's calling for NO COMPROMISE by the GOP when it comes to the current discussion/argument over taxes.
Nothing new there.....Ha! Ha! Ha!
"Right, do not underestimate the intelligence of Americans which is exactly why President Obama won the election ....." @Vernos Branco
Let me finish the statement for you...And Americans voted in a majority of republicans in the House, and the Governor State Houses. With the majority of the 30 GOP State Governors having majority GOP legislatures.
Obama won because he is the incumbent, never stopped campaigning since 2008, and had a great political ground game for getting out the vote, DESPITE the fact that 8 MILLION fewer voters went to the polls to vote for him in 2012 as 2008.
CarmineD
Comment removed by moderator. Personal Attack
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/1...
Many Corporations pay no tax but they are overtaxed.
The right predicted the end of America when Elvis shook his ass on television. If we can get people educated and contain medical cost inflation we should have a few hundred good years left.
Robert Leavitt,
Is Obama proposing tax changes on the other taxes you mentioned? I haven't heard a "fair share" Obama speech on other taxes. Now, we did hear Obama state
he would raise capital gains tax rates in a debate with Hillary Clinton back in 2008 even if it results in lower tax revenue collected.
Clinton in 1997 reluctantly signed a GOP tax bill that cut the capital-gains rate to 20% from 28%. The result? Tax receipts from capital gains ballooned as stock and other capital investment more than tripled.
Between 1996 and 2000, "the increase in capital gains revenues accounted for a little over 20% of the total increase in federal revenues," former Treasury official Bruce Bartlett said.
Our economy needs investors to invest and those with means to spend.
Video- Obama, would raise capital gains tax rates even if it causes a reduction in income tax receipts coming into the federal government.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54jr3Ceu8...
The worse thing the GOP can do is give in to the President on raising taxes WITHOUR COMPARABLE SPENDING CUTS. Then, Presiddent wins and tells the Americans in 2014 that the GOP raised tax rates TOO so you can't blame him [Obama] and the Dems.
Here's your option GOP. Give the President his higher tax rates on top 2 percent and let him sign it into law [his pen is ready!]. Then GIVE HIM NOTHING UNTIL HE CONCEDES SPENDING CUTS. And he won't. Then, the President and the Dems fingerprints are all over the fiscal cliff dive and bad economy. Simple.
CarmineD
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908934.h...
Yeah, lets have more war spending and pay for it for the next hundred years plus. The last Civil War widows died in 2003 and 2004.
We spend massively on defense because it creates jobs in the defense industry. Period! Most countries that have carriers have a few. We have had so many it is hard to add them up. Each new carrier budgeted will put thousands to work. The USS Gerald R Ford will probably cost more than the entire pacific fleet in WW2. $14 billion. What the hell!!! Thousands have worked on it for years.
"The USS Gerald R Ford will probably cost more than the entire pacific fleet in WW2. $14 billion. What the hell!!! "
Gerry, are you suggesting we cap defense spending based on WW2 carrier building nominal spending levels? Due to inflation, almost everything today costs more money. Budget based on nominal or real dollars Gerry?
By the way, the confederate widow that died in 2004 married an 81 year old ex-confederate soldier in 1927 when she was 21 years old. The stat is correct but how frequent would that happen? Using extreme case scenarios to make a point is fair game but it misrepresents the norm.
Winning a second term is a time of great joy and celebration and this is especially true of last months elections because so many conservatives were expecting a big Romney victory. It's one thing to be hit in face when you know it's coming but another thing entirely to be sucker punched in a dark alley by a black Kenyon-born, Muslim, Marxist socialist with a funny-sounding unAmerican name.
I'm glad the letter writer has finally regained consciousness and picked himself up off the mat. But GOPers are hateful people who don't play by the rules so their misery is fully deserved. In that beat-a-dead-horse vein I'm posting a link so others can remember the pre-election rhetoric spewing from the delusional right.
Romney Landslide: Here Are the Biggest Names Predicting It & How It Will Happen:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/romney-l...
RefNV your data only counts Federal income tax....the tax burden in the United States is spread across income, sales, property and other goods and, fees on services by Federal, State and local government and quasi-governmental organizations. It is misleading of you to to use the header "Income Level Range/Effective Tax Rate" when the only tax that you are referring to is the Federal Income Tax. But, more credit to you, that is what propagandists do.
You are absolutely correct. These things don't happen often but they happen more than you think. Old farts marrying young women is very prevalent among cops and soldiers. The issue had to be addressed in the actual plan documents of the medical trusts I help set up years ago. We set a minimum age for collection of benefits among surviving spouses because there were so many guys in there 50s marrying gals in there 20s and 30s. We didn't want a primary beneficiary dying and then have to pay benefits to a surviving spouse for 70 years. Santa Monica was one of the first cities to recognize domestic partners. Because of this we had to include these benefits in the "Santa Monica Police Officers Association Medical Trust". Domestic partnerships get so complicated it makes your head spin. People will be getting Iraq and Afghanistan veteran benefits 150 years from now.
I terms of the aircraft carrier we should launch it, use it for target practice, blow it up and build another. That is sort of the way defense works. Get rid of one and build another whether we need it or not. If another cold war erupts they will have to put stop lights in the middle of the ocean. Between cruise ships, cargo ships and war ships it is getting kind of crowded.
They can build a massive cruise ship for a billion. $14 billion for the Ford seems a little steep. But if I were in that business I am sure I would love the $$$$$$$$.
Have a great day!
The current political climate is more like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" environment with such a dysfunctional government. All the LV Sun Commenters have made good, reasonable points. As a woman, and registered voter, Mitt Romney scarred the life and trust out of me.
Bottom line: Everyone will have to experience cuts and compromise to get our country on a more functional course. As President J.F. Kennedy suggested, "Ask not, what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
Blessings and Peace,
Star
If Bob Jack is talking about social issues, I agree that the country is moving to the left. That is part of the reason Republicans and Conservatives are having a harder time than in the past.
On the economy, I don't think where we appear to be matters that much. Whether it is Republicans or Democrats in power, our government is unwilling to tax enough and or reduce spending enough to address the deficits and debt. Eventually, that inaction will force change. That forced change may be in the next four years or after that but it will come.
We can be the world's policeman if that's what we want to be, but being that is expensive, and Americans must be willing to pay for being that policeman with higher taxes.
We can have a giant social safety net and make no changes to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, if that's what we want to do, but Americans must be willing to pay much higher taxes to cover what that is going to cost.
What we MUST STOP doing is deciding we want to be the world's policeman and we want to keep entitlements just as they are and have a giant social safety net and put more than 50 % of that cost on a government credit card that already has 16 trillion dollars on it.
If anyone thought that the election of Romney was going to change much of that, they were naive. If anyone believes that the re-election of President Obama is going to change much of that, they are naive.
It is not in the interests of our elected leaders to do unpopular things and unpopular things are what we need to do to fix our economic mess. Until circumstances force us or we decide to force our leaders to act, we will continue in the wrong direction.
Michael
...and you thought the use of this sort of conjecture was only available to Sarah Palin.
We need to cut spending all over the place but I'm becoming concerned about SS and Medicare. Ja sure, we need to get into the details on Medicare fraud--beneficiary and provider fraud. And we need to stop the blank checks when there is little to no chance that the patient will every recover consciousness--25% of Medicare costs. Ditto the optional / elective procedures--like prostrate surgery that will probably leave you incontinent or on a catheter but 0-1% chance that the prostrate cancer will kill you. Health professionals are just not acting professionally. All they seem to do is find procedures, the more expensive the better. And no regard to your quality of life. Note the recent findings that hospitals are urging to forcing doctors to admit patients that have NO NEED for hospitalization. SS is of concern but not so much. Let's balance the concerns that the top 2% are afraid they'll have to subsidize the on-going underfunding without overdue corrections to the actuarial calculations--average life span, retirement age, amounts being paid out versus amounts being paid in. And then, we keep adding people to the SS roles without much if any contributions--illegals getting SSI and SSDI. Handicapped and disabled people put on SSDI despite never working--and we import every "needy" child we can find anywhere on the globe. Humanitarianism is a different story--we can not jeopardize our retirement and our solvency by giving it all away.
Pat Hayes wrote "RefNV your data only counts Federal income tax....the tax burden in the United States is spread across income, sales, property and other goods and, fees on services by Federal, State and local government and quasi-governmental organizations. It is misleading of you to to use the header "Income Level Range/Effective Tax Rate" when the only tax that you are referring to is the Federal Income Tax. But, more credit to you, that is what propagandists do."
Pat, the letter writer referred to the fiscal cliff and alluded to tax revenue and entitlement reform. I assumed you would understand we are talking about only federal income taxes. Additionally, I referred to a "chart of the effective tax rate based on 2010 tax returns", a clear reference to federal income tax returns.
Pat, I assumed you would understand that the subject matter was the fiscal cliff, federal income taxes and government spending, not all tax revenue sources. Next time, I'll try to make it more clear to you and other readers.
Bob - Please share whatever it is you're smoking with the rest of us. Thank you.
Freeman uses his statistics, but they are worthless. If you notice, he will only show you 'effective' tax rates. These are not the tax rates that people actually pay once their lawyers get through with the numbers. The simple proof of the worthlessness is Romney himself. 14% while Freeman's 'effective' rate is 23%. Complete GARBAGE numbers that don't correspond to reality. And, by the way, if some group of people have 70% of the wealth, they should pay 70% of the taxes.
Here are 3 simple, indisputable, facts.
1) The Bush era tax cuts, among other items, come to an end on 12/31/12. On 1/1/13 all Americans will go back to our previous tax rate. The folks in DC are now in discussions about what to do.
2) Obama has proposed that 100% of American citizens get a tax cut on the first $250K they earn beginning 1/1/13. Basically to continue the Bust tax cut.
3) The Republicans are saying "NO". Unless the uber-rich get a tax break on their money OVER $250K too, then no one in America will get ANYTHING.
So, as of today, Republicans are now voting against tax cuts in an attempt to protect the super-rich.
Luckily, America's is set up on checks and balances. This prevents a "winner take all" situation. The democrats gained leverage from this election, but they don't and can't control everything. Our government is set up on the principle of compromise. All elections are supposed to do is give one party more leverage.
My biggest problem with Obama is that he isn't a negotiator. Every president has to work with the opposing party to a certain degree and he has been the worst at it. COMPROMISE. This whole fiscal cliff situation has been two parties playing chicken and it's absolutely ridiculous. But in my opinion it starts at the source: the president. For some reason over half of America voted for him even though none of his legislation's have shown an ounce of compromise.
A lot of the Repub comments on this site are all about winning and losing, and appearances next voting cycle. What strategy to employ just when for the best effect. Very little mention of what is best for the country. The fight is everything. Here is a shameful, but representative example:
The worse thing the GOP can do is give in to the President on raising taxes WITHOUR COMPARABLE SPENDING CUTS. Then, Presiddent wins and tells the Americans in 2014 that the GOP raised tax rates TOO so you can't blame him [Obama] and the Dems.
Here's your option GOP. Give the President his higher tax rates on top 2 percent and let him sign it into law [his pen is ready!]. Then GIVE HIM NOTHING UNTIL HE CONCEDES SPENDING CUTS. And he won't. Then, the President and the Dems fingerprints are all over the fiscal cliff dive and bad economy. Simple.
JC52: Are you kidding? Obama has angered his base by compromising with Repubs several times. The Repubs and the TeaParty are the ones who will not give one inch. Obama has proposed Republican ideas only to have them rejected because they came out of Obama's mouth. Mitch and his "Priority #1 will be to make him a one term President" Or proposing a bill, then filibustering it moments later! Are you kidding about who won't give an inch? Right now the Republicans are voting NO on tax cuts to 100% of Americans. ARE YOU KIDDING about who isn't reasonable?????
CreatedEQL wrote "Freeman uses his statistics, but they are worthless. If you notice, he will only show you 'effective' tax rates. These are not the tax rates that people actually pay once their lawyers get through with the numbers. The simple proof of the worthlessness is Romney himself. 14% while Freeman's 'effective' rate is 23%."
CreatedEQL, sorry but I trust the IRS data over what you have presented. Do you know what the definition of "Effective Income Tax Rates" is? I can assure you it's not called "Freeman's effective rate" anywhere.
http://taxfoundation.org/article/putting...
Freeman: Using your link: The average American pays 10.1% in taxes. The uber uber rich pay 23%, or roughly double. This is proported to prove some form of unfairness.
I've read post after post that ALL Americans should feel the same pain. Make the poor pay SOMETHING so they have a stake in the game.
I agree. All taxpayers should feel the same pain. So let's take the net worth and income of a middle class citizen, and then figure out what that 10% in taxes represents to him/her. Then, let's do the same to the uber-rich and make them pay until they feel the same proportion of tax pain as the middle class guy just did. Then we'd have fairness right? My guess is that would be around the 80-90% bracket. The bottom line is we have a progressive tax rate and that is a fair concept. People who have nothing pay nothing. People who have a lot pay more. I'd much rather be a multi-millionaire paying 50% taxes than middle class paying 10%.
One of the problems we have is that the rich have lawyers and lobbyists that get them out of paying anywhere near what they should be paying, and the Repubs need to stop defending this practice. Obama just proposed that 100% of Americans continue a tax break, and Repubs say NO, not unless all the rich's money is protected.
CreatedEQL,
Your effective tax rate is the rate you actually pay on all of your taxable income. Your effective rate will always be lower than your marginal tax rate, which is the rate you pay on the income that falls into the highest tax bracket you reach.
For example, if you file your federal tax return as a single taxpayer, had taxable income of $75,000, and paid $15,332 in federal income taxes, your federal marginal tax rate would be 28% but your effective rate would be 20.4%. That lower rate reflects the fact that you paid tax on portions of your income at the 10%, 15%, and 25% rates, as well as the final portion at 28%.
You mentioned Romney's effective tax rate of 14%. Mr. Romney's income is in the form of capital gains and dividends, which are taxed at 15%. Below in the link you'll see a chart. Mr. Romney's effective tax rate was 14%, after deductions. As the chart shows, this rate is still higher than the average rate paid by taxpayers earning up to $200,000. There are about 136 million taxpayers who have adjusted gross incomes less than $200,000, or 97% of all taxpayers. So even with an average tax rate of 14%, Romney paid a higher average rate than 97% of his fellow Americans.
http://taxfoundation.org/blog/even-14-ro...
Bob Jack.......
YES, the United States is now a decidedly liberal,
left of center country.
We're not going back to republican extremism and
greed.
Republicanism was soundly rejected by the majority
of Americans.
Only 47% of Americans voted for romney.
And most of that 47% were brain-washed by crazy
teabaggers.
PRESIDENT OBAMA is already successful in turning
your republican mess around.
AND PRESIDENT OBAMA will go down in history as
one of the best presidents of all time.
WE ARE LUCKY TO HAVE HIM.
LIVE BETTER/WORK UNION!
It's not moving to the left at any great speed and certainly without a mandate!! BHO can either move to the right or spend the next four years on another vacation....
It's all very simple.
The left pulls the social agenda leftward, and the right pulls the economic issues rightward.
Hence, a center based country.
To the editor:
By November, according to data BLS released today, the total number of people employed had climbed to 143,262,000, an overall increase of 847,000 in the six months since June.
In the same five-month period since June, the number of people employed by government increased by 621,000 to 20,559,000. These 621,000 new government jobs created in the last five months equals 73.3 percent of the 847,000 new jobs created overall.
When the government jobs reach 100% of all jobs - that's called socialism; and we are well on the way there.
Marc Jeric
"AND PRESIDENT OBAMA will go down in history as
one of the best presidents of all time." @ Teamster
For sure...at spending the most amount of time playing golf.
CarmineD
The Republican Party is leaderless when you consider the accomplishments of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner.
The real leaders of the party are Limbaugh and the entire staff at FIXED News where Hannity leads the sheep into believing their divisive rant.
Viva Benghazi!!!!!!!!!
Carmine deosn't get it but what's new....
He has very little factual information that he can use to bash Obama with so he uses such foolish things as saying that Obama spends too much time playing golf.
Hmmmm....Is that why Carmine voted for "mittens?"
Is the statement by Carmine nothing more than a statement made by a guy who loves to throws rocks at the president despite the fact that the two leading "presidential golfers of all time" were Republicans...
I wonder if Carmine would be throwing rocks at both Taft & Eisenhower for playing too much golf if they were around today?
Hmmmmm....why did I ask that question? We all know the answer to that question, don't we?
Carmine.......step up your game little buddy. Your drive off the tee is very weak & your short game is very bad! In other words, your argument is getting weaker and weaker...
Hey Carmine....have you seen the latest poll that says that a majority of Catholics in this country believe that gay marriage should be made legal through out the USA?
What's your reaction to that? Do you agree or disagree? Be honest now with your answer!
"The United States is now a decidedly liberal, left-of-center nation...We must all bear the dire consequences."
Review the wonderful economic stability of Canada and Australia for those dire consequences of liberal countries.
In Australia, from 1894 until 1979 only three banks failed, all in 1931. After 1979, several shook but none failed.
In Canada, there were no bank failures during the Great Depression compared to 9000+ in the US. Two small regional banks failed in the mid-1980s, the only such failures since 1923.
Real Estate in Australia and Canada never experienced more than a momentary drop in 2009 and recovered almost immediately.
The Canadians and Australians don't loose their savings between recurring boom and bust cycles as is so prevalent in America, nor is it possible to loose one's house because of a broken arm or need of an operation.
Canadians and Australians enjoy life, travel, take more international vacations and have more time to relax and be with their friends and family than in this country. The (socialistic) British generally take an entire month off in the summer, like other European countries and travel to interesting parts of the world. In America, we look for second jobs to make up for the times of unemployment.
Both countries, considered 'socialist' by American standards (not left-of-center), have a graduated tax system where the wealthy pay higher rates on their taxable incomes than those who are employed. Both countries have marvelous social and economic stability. In America, economic upheavals are habitual.
In life expectancy, Australia is 6th with 81.2 years; Canada is 12th with 80.7 and the US 37th at 78.2, behind Cuba, Chile, Costa Rica and Puerto Rico to name a few. Sounds like we are dying young to become 'Competitive with the World' but it isn't working, we're just dying younger.
What is the secret? To begin with, Australia's prime minister is an atheist and lives with a man to whom she is not married. Julia Gillard said specifically "[I'm] a great respecter of religious beliefs but they're not my beliefs".
Rationality is the key to getting elected in Australia and fortunately, that just took place in America as well.
If those are dire consequences, then bring them on.
Moscow Pravda in a recent opinion piece reads as follows: "Obama is a Communist without question, promoting the Communist Manifesto without calling it so. How shrewd he is in America. His cult of personality mesmerizes those who cannot go beyond their ignorance. They will continue to follow him like those fools who still praise Lenin and Stalin in Russia. Obama's fools and Stalin's fools share the same drink of illusion."
We're all familiar with the saying "it takes one to know one." In the case of President Obama, perhaps the saying should be "it takes the victims of one to know one." Throughout Obama's national career, from his first presidential campaign through his re-election, some of the most dedicated opponents of his presidency have been refugees from former communist countries. And I am one of them, having escaped from a communist hell way back in 1957; waited 5 years to get a conditional immigrant visa in 1962. We are well on the way to become the United Socialist States of America, including massive nationalizations of private companies accompanied by the establishment of an American Gulag for the likes of me.
MarcJeric said:
"We are well on the way to become the United Socialist States of America, including massive nationalizations of private companies accompanied by the establishment of an American Gulag for the likes of me."
Wow............NO DOUBLE WOW!
Marc, take two aspirin & go straight to bed. Drink plenty of liquids and stay in bed for 24-36 hours. If your condition continues see a doctor immediately!