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AP Photo/Cathleen Allison
Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford, D-North Las Vegas, and Minority Leader Mike McGinness, R-Fallon, talk on the Senate floor Monday, May 30, 2011, at the Legislature in Carson City. Lawmakers continue to work with the governor on the state budget, including talks to extend taxes that were set to expire June 30.
By Anjeanette Damon (contact) 
, David McGrath Schwartz
Tuesday, May 31, 2011 | 1:57 a.m.
Nevada Senate Republicans work in a caucus Monday, May 30, 2011, at the Legislature in Carson City as they faced a final bill deadline.
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Sun Coverage
CARSON CITY -- In the final minutes before a key deadline Monday night, Senate Democrats passed large-scale changes to the education system, a compromise with Republicans and Gov. Brian Sandoval that brought the Nevada Legislature closer to an end.
The bills, as amended Monday night, would put teachers who receive two years of negative evaluations back on probationary status; it would also require school districts to consider factors other than seniority when laying off teachers. The Assembly still needs to consider and approve the education bills before they go to the governor’s desk. Sandoval indicated he would sign the bills in a tweet sent Tuesday morning.
Democrats in the Assembly also passed a key collective bargaining reform bill that changes the way disputes between governments and unions are mediated and requires local governments and school districts to report estimated costs of newly bargained agreements.
The reform bills on Republican priorities were seen as a good-faith effort by Democrats who continued into the early morning hours to negotiate a budget compromise with Sandoval. The Republican governor had demanded such reforms in return for lifting the sunsets on tax increases passed in 2009 that are scheduled to expire on June 30.
“There was no point in doing these reforms with the magnitude of the cuts that we (had been) facing,” said Assemblywoman Debbie Smith, D-Sparks, indicating an agreement was near on how to fund education at the level Democrats had been pushing for, triggering their acquiescence on his some of Sandoval’s reforms.
Sandoval and Democratic leaders had reached an impasse on the budget late Sunday night, disagreeing on the overall spending number. But they appeared to have found a way to bridge the $313 million gap between the governor’s proposed spending and Democrats' spending by early Tuesday morning. No final deal had been reached, but Democrats were looking for a budget mechanism to fund education at their levels while keeping overall general fund spending at the level recommended by Sandoval.
Democrats also are seeking a tax increase on mining, either by closing some deduction loopholes or capping the overall deductions the companies are allowed to take.
Changes to the way the payroll tax is assessed also were being negotiated. Education reforms had been a priority of Sandoval, as well as Democratic leadership, but are also a key bargaining chip in negotiating spending and taxes.
Assembly Bill 225 and Assembly Bill 229 drew some heated debate on the Senate floor.
Sen. Mike Schneider
Sen. Mike Schneider, D-Las Vegas, railed against the bills as “a joke.”
“We’re dinking around with education, because we’re experts,” he said sarcastically. “Because we went to school. Some of us even went to college.”
He predicted the reforms were going to “screw it up more. This is just another half attempt at trying to do something.”
He said poor funding for Nevada schools was the real problem.
“This is a joke. I realize this is tied to budget negotiations. But this is a joke,” he said. “We failed our system. We failed our kids, so we can save a buck.”
Schneider ultimately ended up voting for both bills. He said after the vote that he understood it was part of the budget “endgame.”
Sen. Michael Roberson
Sen. Michael Roberson, R-Las Vegas, also complained that the reforms didn’t go far enough. He made the assertion, not for the first time this session, that the “teachers' union” controlled the Democratic majority.
The Nevada State Education Association, which represents teachers, opposed portions of the bill, and has said that extending sunsetting taxes is insufficient to fund schools.
Three Democratic senators, Sen. Ruben Kihuen, D-Las Vegas; Sen. Shirley Breeden, D-Henderson; and Sen. Mark Manendo, D-Las Vegas; voted against Assembly Bill 225. Sen. John Lee, D-North Las Vegas, voted against Assembly Bill 229.
Democrats closed the budget with significant cuts to K-12 funding, though less than Sandoval had proposed. Instead of a 5 percent salary cut, Democrats passed a 2.5 percent cut for teachers, administrators and support staff. The bill also institute a new four-tiered evaluation system.
The key here is the increase in mining taxes. Cutting the loophole whereby the mining taxes get these big deductions will go a long way to solving some of our problems. There are some pretty sharp CPA's in Nevada and this could be accomplished fairly easily.
One teacher might work for some students and another for other students. What is a good doctor or good attorney? A doctor or attorney who takes tough cases may have a lower success rate. Likewise, teachers in low income areas may have more failures than someone out in Summerlin.
Look at Sandoval, he avoids consequences of his failures by job-hopping before the ---t hits the fan.
It also might take a few years before someone knows their job in any profession.
hey brian " my kids don't look hispanic so i could frickin care less about those hispanic losers that have to deal with racial profiling even though i am a mexican american" sandoval...
you complete and total fraud...
make no mistake skippy...
you are about to inflict irreparable harm on the innocent children of the very state you serve...
all for a line item on a resume...
shame on you...
and make no mistake skipster...
when the articles start to come out about how nevada ranks last in this and that...
a little birdie will be here to remind everybody that the blood for this massacre can be found solely on your hands...
SHAME ON YOU!!!
is michael roberson a child???
an itty bitty child???
hey horsford...
hey oceguera...
i sure as hell hope you built some protection into this negotiation...
because brian sandoval is a greasy slimy maggot...
all you need to know about his character is that he will throw anybody under the bus to get his way...
even his own mexican people...
got that that...
he will toss his own heritage out the window to get his way...
his kids don't look hispanic...
so he could frickin care less if other mexicans have to deal with racial profiling...
can you imagine the disgrace...
disgusting...
i hope his father beat the snot out of him for that comment...
pathetic...
the man has no moral compass...
the man is a complete and total fraud...
so like i said...
you better make certain these negotiations air tight...
or we are coming after you you...
got that skippies...
hey anjeanette...
keep an eye out for some last minute weasel behavior form the republicans...
that's coming for sure...
but more importantly...
please tell us how horsford and oceguera handle it...
we proud liberal democrats need to know if these guys are leaders...
or wussess...
thanks in advance...
May the negotiations continue.
With very guarded breath, do I commend both the Governor and the Nevada State Lawmakers for now talking and meeting in the middle, coming to a compromise. No one will be perfectly happy with the piece meal give and takes at the very last minute. IF they were being evaluated by the new teacher evaluation form, this type of lesson/lawmaking session practicing would not have earned them the best of grades.
There still needs to be sweeping and major MINING TAX REFORMS AND RESTRUCTURING, that would put the rate that MINING pays in taxes as they do (say, the average tax they pay in the other 49 USA states). This takes changing the Nevada Constitution by the Nevada State Lawmakers, and about 6 years. This act will really help put Nevada on the track towards fiscal responsibility-getting paid for precious minerals that are taken out of Nevada for a fair price. Positive REVENUE/INCOME!
Because we live in a world that is uncertain, it would seem prudent to have a RESERVE. Nevada needs to be forward-thinking and plan for a reserve, so when there are times of disaster, or in the bust cycle, there is that reserve to help out the people. We should be learning from what we see and hear on the news, and be more prepared.
Because of Nevada's myopic vision of just a few anchor industries, we really need to embrace the upcoming GREEN POWER INDUSTRIES that are breaking ground and sprouting throughout the state. Nevada is the place. Nevada has the SUN, WIND, GEOTHERMAL, NATURAL GAS, and even trash (to make trash to energy). Let's nurture it, let's develop those possibilities for our state and its citizens.
May God, the Saints, and all the Angels be watching and guiding the balance of the Nevada State Legislative Session.
We have already seen in recent days businesses testifying in support of extending the sunsets on certain taxes. The Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce has come out in support of a broad based business tax that is linked to education reform. However, there is still an area that needs to be addressed. The Constitutional protection for the mining industry and the state laws that allow huge deductions need to undergo changes. I am not advocating the Alaska solution of a 25% royalty on oil companies, although based on recent earnings reports, that doesn't seem to have had a negative effect on their profits.Two mining companies are planning on opening mines in the Comstock Lode and the Carlin Trace.
The issue was highlighted in a recent power point presentation at the Barrick Mining annual meeting. One of the mines highlighted in the power point was the Cortez Hills Mine in Northern Nevada. According to the power point, in 2010, the mine produced 114,000,000 ounces of gold (over 35 TONS) at a production cost of $312 per ounce. During the first quarter of 2011, the mine produced 366,000 ounces (over 11 TONS) of gold at a production cost of $220 per ounce. If you project a sale price of $1000 over cost of production,that results in a profit of over $1,500,000,000. Based on what the mining industry paid in taxes in 2009, the tax payment to the state of Nevada will probably be less than 50,000,000. The power point goes on to point out that the projected production from Cortez Hills for 2011 will be between 1.30 to 1.45 MILLION ounces (40-45 TONS)at a production cost of $235-245 per ounce. This is natural resource that should provide significant benefits to the citizens of Nevada. Unless the Legislature acts quickly, another two years will pass without any significant action to change the tax structure of the state.
The broad based business tax needs to be passed. For companies like Wal-mart, Costco, the banks, Target, etc who operate in Nevada and pay no taxes is as unfair as the mining tax situation.
Sen. Mike Schneider, D-Las Vegas, railed against the bills as "a joke."
"We're dinking around with education, because we're experts," he said sarcastically. "Because we went to school. Some of us even went to college."
He predicted the reforms were going to "screw it up more. This is just another half attempt at trying to do something."
He said poor funding for Nevada schools was the real problem.
That Mike Schneider... He's a pretty bright guy.
He hit the NAIL ON THE HEAD.
I couldn't have said it better myself...
WHAT A JOKE!
The real issue is the pay of school administrators. Most do nothing except push paper and are not actively involved in the education of school children. I bet you could eliminate 90% of those jobs and save millions of dollars.
Sen. Michael Roberson: you are an idiot.
We DON'T HAVE TO EXTEND ALL THE TAXES--K-12 keeps their bond funds and room tax so K-12 DOESN'T NEED MORE FUNDING.
Deport 100,000 ILLEGAL STUDENTS so our economy CAN RECOVER. Get after employers of 140,000 ILLEGAL EMPLOYEES IN NEVADA, per PEW CENTER.
Since the 2008-2009 School Year, CCSD has endured cuts of 800,000,000. For the 2011-2012 School Year, the proposed budget is 1,200,000,000 after possible cuts of an additional 400,000,000, depending on the actions of the state legislature. If the 400,000,000 in cuts do materialize, then the total cuts since the fall of 2008 are 1,200,000,000 or EQUAL to the 2011-2012 CCSD budget.
Since Sandoval was using those funds to balance the budget, removing those funds from the budget means that another 650,000,000 must be cut, or a revenuw source must be found to replace the missing funds.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment was in all caps.
Politicians have noted that the Von Ryan Express plan to end Medicare have scared off voters in many parts of the country.
Politicians now see the teapottery demographic as a losing proposition. Sarah Palin's numbers have tanked with independents. People like George Will call her a nut.
Sean Hannity, Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh have seen their ratings drop 30% in the last year. All three have shunned interviews about their declining ratings. Rush Limbaugh bragged "he was not going to be part of this recession.." really Rush? how come your ratings are down?
Not only that, talk shows used to advertise Cadillacs, and Fortune 500 companies, now they advertise "work at home" schemes and "credit protection" services that are under scrutiny by the FTC.
The Republicans, like Sandoval, have figured they better raise taxes, rather than see their rating tank like that of Florida Governor Rick Scott.
Let the talk radio blowhards blow, they don't command much of an audience, particularly in Vegas, they are not mainstream.
Look at Sharon Angle, she was irrelevant, they thought she was a big deal.
It's like Limbaugh, they wouldn't let him be into an NFL team, he is simply not mainstream.
Nevada is returning to mainstream politics.
@Mred- It's about being fiscally responsible, not politics. staralioflundnv above stated it very well: "Because we live in a world that is uncertain, it would seem prudent to have a RESERVE". Whichever party sets us on a sustainable financial path in the future will help us greatly.
Most of the reforms passed so far amount to a joke. No real tenure or seniority reforms are a major problem - especially if you're a low-income minority. Putting teachers back on probationary status is a joke. First, the process of getting a teacher back on probationary status will suffer from the same "due process" nonsense that keeps public schools from getting rid of bad teachers and child molesters in the first place. Second, Nevada actually fires more tenured teachers than non-tenured teachers - according to the Center for American progress.
The teacher pay cut is very minimal as well. Teachers received a major salary increase when the salary schedule was renegotiated back in 2009. The overall increase was about 10 percent between 2007-08 and today plus individual step increases. We could save more than $100 million in the biennium by rolling the pay schedule back to the 2007-08 school year and even more if you roll back all the non educators and administrators that work in the districts http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
Gmag, Senator Schneider is incorrect about spending. Spending isn't the problem and it never has been... in fact Nevada spends over $4 billion a year on K-12 education http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
I don't believe anyone should be taken seriously that suggests we should keep throwing more money at education...especially if that person wants to eliminate any measures of accountability as Schneider always advocates.
He's a likable guy and I believe he cares about education, but he really seems more concerned about what the teacher union thinks and that means focusing on jobs for adults not students.
Hey Pat,
"Blah, blah, blah."
Don't you ever get sick of "Propagandizing"?
You are a One-Trick Pony, Pat.
How's that Wranglin' business goin', anyway? You raking in the "big bucks" trying to dissuade people from doing the RIGHT THING, Pat?
Considering that NOBODY AGREES WITH YA, I have to wonder about your calling in life, Pat... you may not be best-suited for this "Wranglin'" business. I'd wish you good luck, but... well, you know, I am PRO EDUCATION. You, on the udder hand, are ANTI-TAX, and ANTI-ANYTHING that requires tax money.
You can claim til' the cows come home that more money is not the answer, Patrick...
IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT.
Gmag,
No repeating stuff doesn't make me right...but the evidence I keep repeating does.
And, as for irony, you keep repeating the same stuff over and over (spend more, spend more, spend more), think you're right, but never provide any evidence other than feelings, emotions and anecdotes.
HEY, Las Vegas Sun!
Can we ALL come on here like Patrick R. Gibbons, with our wares to hawk, and post links to our businesses, like Pat?
COOL!!!
FREE ADVERTISING, right here under the SUN!
Evidence: http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3746,e...
Evidence: http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/09f33...
Evidence: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/t...
Evidence: http://wac.0873.edgecastcdn.net/800873/b...
Evidence: http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
and more and more and more: spending more money on public education does not produce greater student achievement...
WHAT EVIDENCE, PAT?
Your selected propaganda links? The links to "like minded", ANTI-TAX, ANTI-EDUCATION RANTERS?
Oh, PULEEEEZE.
And, for the record, I've NEVER ONCE SAID "spend more, spend more"... there's a BIG DIFF between PROPERLY FUNDING EDUCATION and your goofy, illogical, "CUT! CUT! CUT!" mantra...
IS THAT ALL YA GOT, Pat?
Wrangler, Shmangler!!!
Gmag, if you bothered to read my stuff (you don't because, I assume that would contradict your blind faith in everything government), you'd notice I have no advertisements, no services offered, nada. Its just a blog where I post findings, research and commentaries. I make exactly $0 from this blog.
You just want to suppress information that you disagree with because you're a paid union thug and bully.
Oh right, the National Center for Education Statistics and the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development are anti-tax and anti-education organizations.
Seriously, is this the best you can do? All you do is badmouth other organizations - even GOVERNMENT RUN ORGANIZATIONS - if they post facts that disagree with your theology. Your one-trick-pony tactic is to stigmatize anything that you disagree with and bully anyone that references anything that you disagree with.
Give it a rest Gmag. I'm starting to think all the crow you've been eating is making you even more of an angry bitter partisan ideologue.
hey gibbie...
how the hell do you drive that wrangler of yours with those big red floppy clown shoes???
The Cato Institute...
The Western Wrrrangler...
VERY unbiased, neutral stuff, Pat!
"EVIDENCE", Pat calls it...
HA!
Do you have anything from NPRI today, or do they forbid you from associating with them now?
gmag strategy - stigmatize, attack, ignore
Notice how the Gmag never addresses the evidence presented. Top researchers here at Animal Planet are unsure if this occurs because it is intellectually incapable of weighing evidence and using critical thinking skills or if it is simply too lazy to make the effort.
Patrick: Where in the heck are you getting a 10% salary increase in 2007-2008. There was NO increase at all from the 2006-2007 school year to 2007-2008. Page 35 and 36: http://www.teachersunionexposed.com/cont...
Pat could take the BIBLE, and argue that "The Apostles were in cahoots with Pontius Pilate".
It's ALL IN THERE! You DARE challenge the BIBLE!?!"
Patrick,
How does my post above match your claims for pay raises?
Notice above how the Gmag selectively ignores evidence from the U.S. Department of Education and the Paris based Organization of Cooperation and Economic Development in order to attack the one source from the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank which drew its chart using data from the U.S. Department of Education.
This is a typical strategy of a partisan nut and political bully. The goal is to attack and stigmatize certain evidence or sources in order to keep that evidence out of the debate.
Now watch what happens when the Gmag is presented with evidence from a respected Harvard University based academic journal:
http://educationnext.org/whystudentsinso...
http://educationnext.org/the-phony-fundi...
Patrick: Additionally, there was no 10% increase from 2007-2008 to current. You are also leaving out all the years where there was no increase at all or a 1% or 2% increase that didn't even equal cost of living increases.
Yeah, everyone here should spend their valuable time arguing idiocy ENDLESSLY with Patrick R. Gibbons...
Because "he's an expert"... and quotes "many other experts"...
Your problem, Patrick, is that you insist that people AGREE with you... because you are a "Professional" at this propaganda stuff.
Real life experience beats academic theory EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, Pat.
Graphs, charts, studies, THEORIES, academic papers, etc, are ALL MALLEABLE, Pat...
Surely you've heard the saying "Lies, damn lies & statistics".
Was that your college MAJOR?
Furthermore, Pat, when you are called out on your propaganda, you pout like an insolent child and act even sillier... not exactly the best qualities for a would-be "Wrangler", Pat.
Patrick: I just went to your blog and noticed how you picked and chose. I dare you to get the salary schedules from 1999 to current to show how teachers got screwed when the economy was doing great and everyone was making a lot of money. I don't understand how you expect people to pay any bit of attention to you when you are so intellectually dishonest about everything you write. This is not the first or second time I've caught you doing this.
...notice how Gibby has spent ALL THIS TIME disparaging little ol' ME?
"Well, that gmag, what does HE know...he doesn't DARE refute my MOUNTAIN of evidence! I have empirical data, and he REFUSES to listen! Well, that just shows ya, don't it? He's ALL BLUSTER! I, on the other hand, am an EXPERT! How DARE HE disagree with ME! You all SEE IT, don't you? I MUST BE RIGHT!"
Pathetic.
tsparks: People in REAL jobs worked yesterday, you didn't. People in REAL jobs will work, except for two weeks' vacation, all summer, you won't. Teachers are not underpaid. After the incredible failures or our education system it really takes guts to complain about being underpaid. Keep up the whining as it just turns off more and more people to "educators". Only a REAL job would even start to wake you up.
@rejecto.
Your definition of a "real job" is?
rejecto...
really stupido.
And, without merit.
You think only TEACHERS got Memorial Day off?
How silly your take is...
Did you know, before THIS COMING SUMMER, many CCSD schools were YEAR-ROUND schools? Of course not.
Real Job?
You couldn't hold the pencil of an Educator and not get lead poisoning.
HEY, PAT!
ANSWER SHANNON'S QUESTION!!!
WHERE ARE THE "HUGE" 10% RAISES???
I'm hearing CRICKETS AGAIN, PAT!
"Keep up the whining as it just turns off more and more people to "educators". Only a REAL job would even start to wake you up."
Hey Patrick the Gibbons Monkey, this is the kind of hate filled, ignorant, uninformed garbage your "statistics" create. Be proud you simian failure.
rejecto, you pathetic excuse for a person. All human civilizations were built on the ideas of educators and philosophers. Modern American society is the FIRST society in the history of mankind to disparage its teachers.
Even the nomadic tribes and so-called savages down through history revered their educators and philosophers.
People like rejecto, gibbons monkey, sandoval, and all the right wing nuts are an embarassment and the laughing stock of the world. Be proud.
I extend my sincere wishes and prayers to the teachers and students of Nevada. Evidently, your only hope is divine intervention at this point.
Gmag, I'm not disparaging you, I'm disparaging the way you debate - which is not at all. But thanks (again) for proving my point; you're a bully and a paid union thug.
Shannon - I don't bother clicking over to the untrusted comments but to answer the alleged question you have, the pay schedule saw a massive jump between 2008 and 2009 - that alone was 4 percent to 15 percent depending on rank. Additionally, add in the fact that teachers get paid extra for each year they age.
Did you notice how Gmag flails, kicks, screams, bites and then ignores when presented with info he doesn't like?
Take a Harvard University journal: http://educationnext.org/whystudentsinso... and he goes right back to his personal attacks and ignores that you ever posted the evidence he dislikes...
This is typical behavior from an irrational political wingnut (right or left).
Patrick
Please post a link to those pay schedules that show a massive increase. Both 2008 and 2009. I don't remember those increases.
"joe lamy" (this is not your real name) I've noticed you're prone to misquoting people and or building straw men.
In regards to your intellectual dishonesty above, I've merely quoted research from the experts which shows:
*teacher quality does not grow significantly after 3-5 years of teaching.
*certified teachers are no better than uncertified teachers
*teachers with advanced degrees are no better than teachers with regular bachelor degrees
*teachers with 30 years of experience may actually be worse than a first year teacher (likely due to burnout).
*class size reduction programs are expensive but ineffective as most studies show students neither benefit nor are harmed from class size reduction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Samue...
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2011/051...
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/MeritPay...
http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/files...
http://edpro.stanford.edu/Hanushek/files...
http://educationnext.org/the-mystery-of-...
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2006/~/m...
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2...
http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~jon/Econ230C/H...
Patrick: Post a link, just like Tanker asked. Also, please address the fact that teachers for years got minimal, if any raises, in the years leading up to 2009...you know, when times were great for everyone else. Also, you know as well as I do that teachers don't get increases past the fifth year of teaching without getting more education in the form of master's degrees. Additionally, longevity increases end at year 14, and only if the teacher has earned basically two masters plus another 18 credits.
I don't know what kind of game you are trying to play, but most of us see right through your tactic of trying fool people into thinking that teachers get generous increases on a yearly basis. That's patently false.
I did a nice article on this subject here: http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
complete with references for your reading enjoyment.
Pat thinks we're ALL HANGING ON HIS EVERY POST...
to get his "expert opinion"...
Thanks for the laughs, Pat... Wrangle on, dude!!!
"All human civilizations were built on the ideas of educators and philosophers"
@quixotic59- Yes, every hour of our lives we think about how a teacher taught us everything we know. LOL
You'd be surprised how many of us who have earned graduate and post-graduate degrees feel that we learned 85% or more of what we know today from the companies we joined. University curricula is very dated and much of what is taught doesn't match real-life business situations that we experience. Your declaration stating that
"All human civilizations were built on the ideas of educators and philosophers" just doesn't match reality.
Not only do the libertarians want to kill seniors by scrapping Medicare, now they don't want to help Missouri tornado victims.
One side you have Patrick that is offering his opinion supported by citing facts with references.
On the other side....just plain-old name calling.....
Hmmmmmm....which one should I listen to??????
The idiots or the guy trying to have a civil discussion using logic and citing actual studies.
Hmmmmmm......it is very hard to decide.....
Hello Airweare. Glad you liked my dose of reality. Your the elitist who called people of asian decent "yellow slant-eyed people" the other day in one of your posts. Its very difficult to take you seriously when you state such shameful things in your posts.
Why do these pompous #@#$es think that "THEY" are the only ones with an education, and that what "THEY" learned trumps what EVERYONE ELSE learned... and DISCOVERED, over the course of a career?
"Well, by God, it says RIGHT HERE on page 34 of my VERY INTERESTING THESIS"... "I have a HARVARD study RIGHT HERE...ARE YOU CHALLENGING HARVARD, MAN?" "I've got some Government statistics handy...I WILL DO THE INTERPRETATION, not YOU! They must BOLSTER ONE OF MY WEAK HYPOTHESES!" ... "You don't KNOW anything, otherwise, you would SPEND HOURS UPON HOURS OF YOUR VALUABLE TIME DEBATING ME!"... "In fact, I'll email your PERSONAL ACCOUNT, SO WE CAN CONTINUE THIS"....
Woah!!!
Pat is THE MAN!!!
"You'd be surprised how many of us who have earned graduate and post-graduate degrees feel that we learned 85% or more of what we know today from the companies we joined. University curricula is very dated and much of what is taught doesn't match real-life business situations that we experience. Your declaration stating that
"All human civilizations were built on the ideas of educators and philosophers" just doesn't match reality."
@RefNV - You learned to APPLY what you learned at the companies. Your learning skills and the application skills are what your education developed. University curricula were never intended to be totally up to date. That is not their purpose. That would be a technical training program. College and university teach people to use logic, do research, use creativity, basic fundamentals, etc. so they can then be successful at their chosen career. Not everyone with the same degree has the same job.
The whole isuue here is that ignorant people, like Patrick, will not recognize that studies can be manipulated, results skewed and applied to suit any argument. patrick's tactics only work with the ignorant.
You need to use your education and study some history regarding the development of knowledge, including much of what people think is modern business practice. See "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu.
gmag39 needs to write a book "The art of demagoguery, how to tear people down that you don't personally know in order to win a debate". I'll give you a tip Gmag. Picture yourself at a podium when making your point or counterpoint. Now just read one of your posts really emphasizing words you put in BOLD and tell me if you don't get a laugh out of your arguments. Ad hominem attacks keep people from taking you seriously.
Airweare- Your 4:44pm comment above was referencing your reply after you described those of asian decent the way you did, you were back-tracking. Rule of thumb- Don't describe minorities by their features when presenting your argument.
Hey, Ref...
You sound JUST LIKE PAT!!!
Have a WONDERFUL EVENING!
I LOVE TO POST IN BOLD PRINT!!!
THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR PEARLS OF WISDOM WITH US "LESSER-THANS"; PURE GENIOUS, MAN!
@Airweare- Your post dated May 26th at 7:17am stated "Little slant-eyed, yellowish-brown kids who know how to know because they learned how to learn will be running this planet." The article was "Teachers trying to educate public about budget crisis". Again, as advice, refrain from describing a minority by their features.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/may...
I think most reasonable people would agree that CCSD in particular and Nevada in general needs to reform education policies. The problems that we see can not be solved just by throwing more money at them.
That said, there is little doubt that some aspects of our schools are woefully underfunded (books, pencils, paper, etc.)
Anything that can help shift more funding into the fundamentals and away from administrative costs is probably a step in the right direction.
Anything that aims at retaining or improving the quality of our educators is also a step in the right direction.
Simply saying we have to spend more money on people is ignoring our real problems.
Hi, boftx...
you are typically a voice of reasonableness from somewhere on the right...
Of COURSE the answer lies somewhere in the middle of "more money" and "teacher-bashing/budget slashing...
You are correct, sir.
That said;
I have not read a single post from anyone claiming simply that spending "more money on people" is the answer.
Otherwise, a very solid take.
...and once again, Patrick completely ignores my request for proof of what he's stating, whereas I offered proof that he is wrong about teacher pay.
I guess I can add that to my question to him regarding what schools in Las Vegas will offer an education for the price of a voucher, as well as how a teacher can realistically provide individual instruction to a classroom crammed full of students (since he claims larger class sizes don't make a difference).
Oh, and I seem to recall a question a long time ago that had to do with some study he posted that had to do with how well Florida educates ELL students where I asked him for how they possibly managed to achieve that.
Needless to say, I'm not shocked by the lack of replies to my very valid questions or challenges to his "data."
Patrick needs some serious classes in Logic and Statistics and Probability.
Now listen carefully, Pat, and let a TEACHER explain it to you.
The studies you reference regarding effectiveness of teachers based on several variables are not in any way scientific or conclusive. You see, Patty Boy, they are based on an initial ASSUMPTION. That ASSUMPTION is that the DATA, and by data we mean the faulty standardized exams, is reliable. Unfortunately, the exams themselves have repeatedly been shown to be unreliable except for the most vague and superficial conclusions.
Now, the results of those unreliable exams are analyzed statistically. That means that someone makes up a theoretical set of variables and equations. They come with a reliability factor and a confidence interval. Those are conveniently left out of the media because they would prove that most of your "studies" are basically cotton candy (all fluff, no substance).
Those variables and formulas, along with the standardized tests, are SUBJECTIVE. Therefore, the conclusions based on the data are SUBJECTIVE and subject to great error. Sometimes the range of error can be as high as 75%. (See New York City Teacher Data Reports).
Of course, the Average Joe does NOT remember their college Statistics and Logic, and you, Patrick, would NEVER refresh their memory, so your so called "studies" APPEAR valid.
Just like David Copperfield, its MAGIC!!!! In all fairness, if the American public would pay a little more attention to the Statistics and Probability and Logic courses they take, and retain, people like Patrick would be rendered moot.
Hi, gmag,
I don't consider myself to on either the right or left, but above the aisle, so to speak. At the same time, I don't think I have my head in the clouds as some Libertarians do. (Please note the distinction between "Libertarian" and "libertarianism".)
Though it might be true that no one has specifically said the answer is to pay higher salaries, that has been the general thrust of many who post here and various advocacy groups in Carson City.
My position is that public education is a legitimate and vital function of government. I maintain that we can not improve our education system until we know exactly why it is failing so miserably. Many have pointed to our spending per pupil as being a measure of how effective (or rather, ineffective) our eduction system is, but it seems to me that the increased spending being called for is mainly for higher pay. Granted, those teachers who buy basic supplies for their students out of their own pockets probably need more pay, but if those fundamentals were properly addressed teachers would not feel compelled to so that in the first place.
The kids not doing anything useful in school half the time, and coming home with no homework to do, can't be fixed with more money. Besides, if CCSD can spend a million bucks on iPads, it can't be that bad.
I have said this before, the primary job of a teacher should be to instill a love of learning in children, followed by teaching children how to learn (which of course involves giving children the basic tools to learn: reading, 'riting, and 'rithemtic.)
Parents, such as myself, need to instill in children a desire to succeed. Parents need to teach children that they should expend every effort to gain the knowledge that will allow them to do so.
But sadly, in my opinion, too few teachers and parents are fulfilling that duty.
@Airweare- I gave you good advice;refrain from describing a minority by their features. In addition, give clearer context to the meaning behind your statements. For example when you stated Little "slant-eyed, yellowish-brown kids who know how to know because they learned how to learn will be running this planet". Is "running this planet" by ""slant-eyed, yellowish-brown kids" good or bad? Favorable or unfavorable? When you don't give context then others are left to guess what the meaning is you're trying to convey. Also, ask yourself whether or not noting a particular nationality is really important in supporting your point. If it isn't then don't. Again just advice.
A REAL job is one where the results are not "close enough". Now, or in the near future, it appears as if a child can graduate from the CCSD and can fail one of the four parts of the proficiency test as long as he/she is "close enough" on the failed test. A REAL job is one where the end product is determined by the receiver/purchaser of the product, not the producer. No one would buy a car with three tires, if the car were made to require four, even though that is close enough. Well, some would buy a three-tired car and we all know who most of them are. Close enough?
It looks like rejecto thinks doctors and dentists don't have REAL jobs either. After all, people go to the dentist and still have their teeth rot or they go to the doctor and still develop cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and die. Oh, and they also had yesterday off, too, so that clinches it.
ShannonK,
It pains me as a parent to say this, but there is some merit to what rejecto says.
I will give rejecto the benefit of the doubt and assume he is talking about social promotion. My wife and I actually suggested that one of our children be held back in 5th grade last year because we were unhappy with her progress. We were eventually persuaded by her school that she was capable and went along with her promotion to 6th grade. This year she has done horrible in some classes and will most likely fail.
We failed our daughter to the extent that we did not fight harder to have her held back sooner. But the school also failed her in arguing that more harm would be done in holding her back that holding her to strict standards.
I should point out that her 5th grade teacher agreed with us, but the administration didn't.
I should also point out that our daughter's problem is not that she is not capable, but does not seem to care. I count this as a failure of both my wife and me *and* her teachers. This was not a problem that caught us by surprise, but one that we had been concerned about for a long time.
@rejecto,
By your defination nobody has a real job in Nevada. Casinos dealers don't provide an end product, hotel maids don't provide an end product. Cab drivers, bus drivers, truck drivers don't provide an end product. So pray tell, rejecto, what "real job" do you have? I still don't understand how you are defining a "real job". Please provide some examples of what a real job is. Do cops and firemen have real jobs? What about mailmen?
Patrick, where are the links to the pay scales that you claim to show a huge pay increase? Do you have them or are you pulling numbers out of your head, or just thin air.
boftx: Then you have first hand experience with what I and others have said about principals refusing to retain students, despite teacher and/or recommendations. Why is it that teachers get blamed for social promotion (and I'm not saying that you are guilty of that) instead of the actual culprits? Why are teachers to blame for principals not doing their jobs and getting rid of bad teachers?
and/or parent...sorry.
"I married an Asian" - Joe Lamy
Lol. Well, I guess you know everything then. :P
Joe, it is intellectual dishonesty - you're also lazy. You are purposefully misquoting my statements to delegitimize the points at hand without you ever having to logically, rationally, or empirically prove them wrong.
This video will explain why advanced degrees for teachers don't make teachers better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRH...
but the answer is really simple: not every teacher can teach to begin with. Learning more stuff does not mean you know how to impart that information to other people - ie teach.
Getting rid of advanced degree bonuses would the state and school districts some $160 million (or more) in the biennium.
Rolling back teacher pay schedule back to 2007-08 (last school year before everything collapses) would save $100 million +
ShannonK,
I have more first-hand experience that you would suspect since our youngest daughter was born deaf. and last year suffered a stroke because a doctor mis-diagnosed a serious sinus infection as an ear infection. (Yes, she is recovering, but there is still a long way to go.) That is why I can understand to a certain extent what rejecto was talking about.
My wife and I have had intimate dealings with the school system for a long time now. I mention our problems not to gain sympathy, but to show that when I complain about the system I am doing so after weighing many factors.
I am upset about many things. Teachers should not feel compelled to spend their own money to buy basic supplies for students. I commend those who do, but I see it as condemnation of the system. I think that many parents have failed their kids by not raising them to see the value of education. I think the system has failed children by not being an inspiration to achieve as much as they can.
I recall as a child (in the late 50s and early 60s) being in a very competitive environment at school. I think the current doctrine of placing emphasis on equality rather than on achievement is misguided. That is not to say that we are not created with the same opportunity, but each person is different in their capabilities. In any event, the school system, and teachers in particular, should help students reach full potential and not just meet arbitrary standards.
How can we progress if our children are being taught that it is okay if you are mediocre?
"Joe" every time you pull a "Fred Conquest" I have to stop and laugh; especially since you're now coming across as a jerk, bully and a liar.
I was given a job in special education because No Child Left Behind (NCLB) did not require special ed teachers to be state certified. You needed to be state certified to be a history teacher under NCLB law.
Any teacher (which you are not) or expert (which you are not) or anyone who has read to comprehend anything I've written (which you have not) would know the law.
Next, certified and qualified are two seperate things. As I've pointed out, and as the research demonstrates, there is no difference in student outcomes between a certified and uncertified teachers.
Examine this chart from the Brookings Institution (a left-of-center think tank, in fact the owner of this newspaper is a board member)http://jaypgreene.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gordon-1-739885.jpg
Of course you know this, you're just an intellectually dishonest (and perhaps incompetent?) bully. The only thing you know how to do is stigmatize rather than rationalize. You show all the signs of being an irrational partisan wingnut (like Gmag above who uses the same one-trick personal attack and never bothers to address the evidence or points at hand).
Aside from the fact that you just make up information to mislead people, I also notice that you make all sorts of grandiose claims about yourself including your most famous declaration "I married an Asian" but you use a fake name and we can't verify anything you say. :P
Tanker,
first, K-12 education in Nevada faced $0 in real budget cuts until 2010 when it had its first REAL decline in revenue. All prior budget cuts were decreases in imaginary spending - money they wanted to spend but never actually had.
Kind of like how I had to cut my Aston Martin budget again.
Next, CCSD SIGNIFICANTLY increased the teacher pay scale in 2009 the results have been about an average of a 10 percent increase per rank on the schedule. Add on top of that the step increases and the fact teachers have been earning advanced degrees and pretty much no teacher in Nevada has had a real pay cut. In fact, it now seems very likely that almost every teacher (at least in CCSD) is earning as much or more than they earned when the recession first began. http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0... (data comes from CCSD).
@Patrick
The CCSD budgets for the following school years.
School Year Budget ES MS HS
2003-2004 1.5 Billion 179 48 35
2004-2005 1.5 Billion 186 51 38
2005-2006 1.7 Billion 193 54 39
2006-2007 1.8 Billion 199 56 40
2007-2008 2.0 Billion 206 57 42
2008-2009 2.0 Billion 210 57 44
2009-2010 2.0 Billion 210 57 44
http://ccsd.net/directory/budget-finance...
For the 2003-2004 School Year, CCSD had 179 Elementary Schools (ES), 48 Middle Schools (MS) and 35 High Schools (HS). For the 2009-2010 School Year, the numbers were 210 Elementary schools, a 17% increase, 57 Middle Schools, a 19% increase, and 44 High Schools, a 26% increase. Those increases in the number of schools will require a corresponding increase in personnel, of approximately 20%. So if you are adding personel, and keeping the budget amount the same, you have to be making cuts somewhere else.
When you go back and look at teacher pay, you also need to look at what was happening in the district at the time. For a number of years during the time frame you are referencing, CCSD was opening 5-10 schools per year and wasn't able to recruit teachers. If you look at you data, the highest increases are in the beginning teacher category, to attract new teachers, just out of college to Nevada. Aren't those the very teachers that you and Michelle Rhee claim are most effective? The areas with the "largest" increases are for brand new teachers to fill those vacancies. I would like to see the entire salary scale, not just the extracts that you created.
Some of the comments you make on this link are not accurate. http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
Class A teachers top out at 5 years. Class B tops out at 6 years. Classes C, D, E top out at 9 years. Class F and G are the only ones that top out at 14 years. The other thing that you don't mention is that not all teachers start at the first step for new teachers. CCSD does recognize years of experience in other school districts. In my case, I was given credit for 6 years service in other districts. For the next school year, I will be taking a real 10% pay cut. I will not be teaching two extra classes above my contract time.
@Patrick
Did you really want to use a music video to explain why advanced degrees don't help improve teaching? This is the link you posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRH...
@Patrick.
I would also remind you of the cost increases from 2003 to now in NV Energy prices. I would also remind you of the rise in fuel prices between 2003 to now. I would remind you that Clark County had huge growth from 2000 to 2010, at least that is what the US Census said. You do accept those figures, correct? I would also remind you that some elementary schools were also year round.
boftx: I completely agree with you.
Maybe I was an old-fashioned type teacher, but I dealt with kids as individuals who weren't all equal and tried my best to get them to achieve to the very best of their abilities. I pushed each of them hard, based on their abilities, not to the extent that what I was expecting from them was impossible, but close to their frustration level. They learned to trust that I wasn't giving them something that was too hard for them, but it was challenging and together we worked through it. They developed confidence in their own abilities and their own brains to actually learn something and do well in class. They learned to take what they now knew and apply it to new situations.
I miss that part of teaching because it was very satisfying to watch the light turn on inside a kid's head.
Patrick: You are really incompetent if you can't use google and find Joe as a teacher at a charter school...just as he has stated before on this forum. Now, you are calling him a liar. You are a pathetic little man.
Patrick still hasn't answered my questions nor Tanker's. Figures.
When again will the GOP be able to INSIST ON PERS REFORM? We cannot afford to keep giving teachers the firefighters retirement plan--full benefits after only 25 years and easy disability. Maybe even reduce the annual accrual of 2.5-2.6% of high 3 salary as pension benefit. STOP PROMOTING based on personal relationships with management and maybe consider credentials and education--in State government so many high school grads are managing departments and divisions because of who they KNOW. Any wonder it keeps taking more and more state employees to do the job.
Mr. Lamy,
You are a truly awful person. It is pretty clear now that you misquote, misinform and mislead in an effort to tear down your political opponents.
Patrick has taken time to explain his position and provide supporting evidence and yet you continue to make personal attacks and avoid the real issue.
Please stop this disgusting attacks, you only embarrass yourself.
Mr. Gibbons,
Your time will be better spent avoiding talking with the paid political operatives like the ones above. It is pretty clear they do not want to engage in a rational discussion since all they are capable of doing is partisan smears and personal attacks.
I think some of these people are professional unionistas so, you're right, they're just bullies. Mr. Lamy may actually be deranged owing to the fact that he claims to do everything from run million dollar businesses to teach inner city pregnant high school students in a charter school and impoverished children in Africa. In reality he's just a teacher from Reno pretending to be an expert on everything (sorry Joe, but this is what it looks like, I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong).
Just ignore the nuts.
J Trenchard: I find it interesting that you think Patrick "proves" his point with "supporting evidence," yet when called on his "facts" and asked to provide the information that he conveniently left out that gives the full picture, he refuses to do so.
I also find it interesting that you think people who disagree with Patrick are "professional unionistas" which is quite laughable. I, for one, have never belonged to any union.
Also, J Trenchard, I think you are confusing the rest of us with the actual "paid political operative," namely one Patrick R. Gibbons, although it does look like he may have lost that job.
Gibby writes:
"No repeating stuff doesn't make me right...but the evidence I keep repeating does."
YOU, PATRICK R. GIBBONS, ARE FULL OF S###!
Your"evidence is suspect, your methods flawed, your presentation laughable at best. I followed each and every link you posted: two refered to official reports that list numbers only and NOTHING to do with ANY conclusion (unless it's in your deluded brain), dealing with spending versus education outcome; one goes to a FOR PROFIT organization peddling their ideas world-wide; one goes to a useless graph from the Cato institute (known to push for limiting education to those who can pay); and the last leads, laughably, to YOUR OWN SITE!!
How lame can you get? You actually think that you can create a site, espouse your addle-minded drivel, and then expect to use THAT as a source?!?!
I thought you were laughable when you got pimp slap at the Grant sawyer building. Now I just have pity for you. Maybe we should reconsider our education system. After all, it produced you and your substandard crap.
You lose. Game Over, Get a life, Get Bent.
Have a nice day...
I would love for any of the government officials to go undercover in the school system and see what it is really like to educate all the children in Clark County. Maybe if they had a better understanding of what ideas like full-inclusion translate to in the everyday classroom, they might have second thoughts. I do not think that it is solely a money issue, but rather an issue of the rights of the few outweighing the rights of many.
Airhead....did seem to work at Halima Academy which was a charter school in Reno that existed for like 2 years before it was shut down by the Nevada Education Board (which is controlled by the teachers union and they really hate charter schools).
I find all the above sooooo funny considering that Airhead is attacking Patrick.
Airhead worked for an entity which was shut down by the teachers union machine.
How funny is that!!!!!!
Hey Pat...
Is jtrenchard your MOM?
That stgrock...
Backer of Shermy Frederick, John Ensign, Gym Gibbons & Pat Gibbons...
How funny is that!!!!!
Airhead.......what you just posted was logical, coherent, referencing scientific studies, void of name calling or any other grade school antics.
Not!!!!!!!!!
It is exactly like your other posts which are illogical, incoherent, lacking references to scientific studies, full of name calling and other grade school antics.
You have now moved from: "It is exactly like your other posts which are illogical, incoherent, lacking references to scientific studies, full of name calling and other grade school antics."
To: "It is exactly like your other posts which are illogical, incoherent, lacking references to scientific studies (except he does cite sources equal to his intelligence level like YouTube and WikiPedia), full of name calling and other grade school antics"
Keep up the good work.
Here is an inspection statement from a State offical that visited at the "school" that AirHead "taught" at:
"Mr. Kenneson stated that he visited the school on February 17, 2006 at about 8:40 in the morning as a follow-up to our audit. Mr. Kenneson spoke with the attendance secretary, who appeared to be the only adult supervision at the school at 8:40 in the morning. Mr. Kenneson stated that he did not see any teachers, but they may have been in some classroom by themselves, but it appeared that the students were all on a break. The students were by the snack machines and in the halls. The students were not in the classroom and there were no more than 12 to 15 pupils in the school."
LOL
Patrick Collins,
that's right, The U.S. Department of Education, OECD, Harvard, Standford, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern and left-of-center think tanks such as Brookings, Center for American Progress and Urban Institute are all suspect.
Sorry but you're outside the mainstream. There is a large consensus on these education reforms.
Mr. Collins, if anything its the teacher union that is pimp slapping the Democrats into screwing children (not literally but figuratively in terms of education quality).
http://www.thewesternwrangler.com/2011/0...
Airweare- Irrelevant gibberish but thanks anyway for the yawn. Oh....you spelled "yourself" as "youtself". Back to 5th grade Joe! LOL
Joe- Here is my week-long message to you. You don't have to ridicule those who have a different viewpoint. You attack others viewpoint and you even attack misspelled words essentially discounting them as 5th graders. How do you expect to ever earn any respect for your viewpoint using the "ridicule tactic"? Your much better off stating what you believe and why you believe it. Stick to the strategy of stating "your view" rather than attacking someone. Have you noticed how the debate changes course when personal attacks are introduced? Your a smart guy Joe, stick to your thoughts "this is what I believe we should do and these are my reasons". You have lots to share and your way too smart to engage in personal attacks. Try it, respect given-respect earned. And you deserve respect. Good night Airweare. :)