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Truth about man who got referrals from judge, county contract comes as a shock
Monday, June 2, 2008 | 2 a.m.
Courtesy of Angie Silla
Raymond Giunta inspects an unidentified boy on a mission trip with Hope Baptist Church to Thailand in November.
Raymond Giunta, who lacked any medical credentials, fills out paperwork on a mission trip with Hope Baptist Church to Thailand in November.
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Beyond the Sun
Raymond Giunta is a man of many titles. Some knew him to be a clinical psychologist. Others knew him simply as Dr. Ray. In reality, he was neither.
Everyone is learning this now — the judge who asked Giunta to profile juvenile arson suspects, the church that sent him on medical mission trips, the county officials who gave him a contract to provide drug and alcohol counseling to teens.
They are all astounded.
But the seemingly elaborate ruse did not require much to pull off — a Ph.D. that Giunta purchased online for a few hundred bucks, his winning personality and, occasionally, a lab coat on his shoulders and a stethoscope around his neck.
Giunta’s explanation for all this is simple. Although he never took a single class, he says he thought the Ph.D. was legitimate. And besides, he says, he’s been helping people for years through his nonprofit group, We Care Ministries.
Whether Giunta, 47, is a master manipulator, as his critics claim, or incredibly gullible, as he claims, his ability to so easily infiltrate the social care network reveals much about Las Vegas — a transient town that welcomes reinvention but lacks many basic service providers. In Giunta’s case, his credentials and their lack of legitimacy were overlooked amid a rabid hunger for such services.
•••
“Doctor” is only the most recent title by which Giunta has been known.
He earned a bachelor’s degree in criminal justice from California State University and, in 1987, founded We Care Ministries to serve people in crisis.
To help pay the bills, he took a job as the director of the California Cemetery Board in the mid-’90s. He led a hard-charging effort to clean up the industry, uncovering wide-scale reuse of grave plots.
Then Giunta became the accused.
A state audit found he illegally took more than $10,200 in cemetery trust funds intended for graveyard upkeep from the owner of a cemetery that he regulated. Giunta opened a bank account with the money and wrote more than $5,800 worth of checks to his wife, Cathy, credit card companies, a child care provider, a dry cleaner, the phone company and We Care Ministries, the audit said.
Giunta said the money was payment for repairs that We Care Ministries made at the cemetery. His mistake, he said, was commingling that money with personal funds.
•••
Giunta would appear again in the public spotlight under another title: chaplain.
In the days following the 9/11 attacks, Giunta flew to New York City. For 68 days, “Chaplain Ray” ministered to firefighters at ground zero.
He wrote a memoir about it, titled “God @ Ground Zero.” The book foreshadows how Giunta would later operate in Las Vegas.
In the opening chapter Giunta and members of his ministry are on their way to New York.
“We were wearing our tactical, police-style blue uniforms, along with clerical collars that identified us as chaplains,” Giunta wrote. “I had gotten used to people calling me ‘father’ because of the collar, even though I wasn’t a priest. If I could help someone, they could call me anything they wanted, especially if it made me ‘safe’ to approach ... I had learned from experience how important such symbols are.”
Giunta’s use of “symbols” would play a key role in the new identity he would establish in Las Vegas.
•••
Giunta moved from Sacramento to Las Vegas in 2004 to become pastor of community care at Central Christian Church in Henderson, one of the valley’s largest churches.
In 2005, Giunta and his wife decided to get their master’s and doctoral degrees — social work and clinical psychology for him, social and behavioral science and psychology for her. Their school of choice: Rochville University.
Giunta’s transcripts say he earned his master’s in 2002 and his doctorate in 2005.
But students at Rochville University don’t actually take any classes. Applicants simply fill out a brief form online explaining their life experiences. They then pay a fee — $769 for the “master’s and doctorate degree package” — and receive a degree and transcripts in the mail within five days. Applicants can even choose their graduation date and, for an extra $60, bump up their GPA from the standard 3.0 to a 3.4 to 3.6.
Giunta earned a 3.5 and 3.52 for work on his master’s and doctorate, respectively.
•••
In 2005, Giunta started volunteering with the Youth Firesetting Intervention Program, sponsored by the Fire Prevention Association of Nevada. The program is targeted at the most dangerous young pyromaniacs.
“It’s everything from flicking matches and making pipe bombs to setting bathrooms and wilderness areas on fire,” said Kathryn Hooper, who supervises the program and works for the Henderson Fire Department.
Giunta came into the picture after the program called Central Christian Church. “We figured they would have licensed therapists because they were huge,” Hooper said.
Giunta was “phenomenal with children,” Hooper said. “He was getting kids to talk about stuff the law enforcement officers didn’t even know about.”
Giunta began taking appointments for counseling. “We gave parents the opportunity to make an appointment with Ray,” Hooper said. “They would go in for pastoral counseling.”
That might have been the understanding going in but documents Giunta submitted to the court went far beyond that to include assessments of the juveniles and recommendations about treatment options. In some cases, Giunta even diagnosed children with mental health disorders.
Giunta listed himself as the evaluator in the documents and placed “Psy.D.” after his name.
Family Court Judge William Voy said Giunta wrote the reports in a way that suggested he had performed the evaluations in conjunction with the fire setters program.
Such language overstated Giunta’s role with the fire setters program, Hooper said.
“He went way outside our scope,” she said. “Pretty much on our coattails, he went in deeper.”
The fire setters program stopped using Giunta after referring five or six children to him because he was unreliable, she said.
But Giunta’s credibility had been established in the court system. Voy continued to send juveniles to him for arson risk assessments that Giunta provided for free.
“I didn’t think anything of it,” Voy said. “Here you’ve got Firesetters using him for psychological testing, he’s got a Ph.D. after his name — what am I supposed to assume?”
Voy said he sent Giunta about five more cases, but stopped in early 2007 when Giunta sent a bill to the county. Giunta, though, would be accepting referrals from the county again within a few months.
•••
In spring 2006 Giunta left Central Christian Church and began attending Hope Baptist Church, another large church in the southeast part of the Las Vegas Valley. The church badly needed a pastoral counselor and Giunta stepped into the gap, head pastor Vance Pittman said.
Giunta quickly became known as “Dr. Ray” at the church.
He began accepting counseling referrals from the church. In return, it contributed $300 a month to his ministry.
At Hope, Giunta turned again to symbols. He wore a doctor’s lab coat with the word “Doc” on its lapel while teaching and counseling, Pittman said. Giunta even wore a stethoscope during a church-sponsored mission trip to Africa, Pittman said. His license plate said: CAREDOC.
“There is no doubt that he, with his appearance, presented himself as a doctor,” Pittman said. Giunta was, however, helping many in the church, Pittman said. In 2006, Giunta ministered to scores of Metro Police officers mourning the death of Sgt. Henry Prendes, who was gunned down while responding to a domestic dispute. Two Metro detectives even joined We Care’s board of directors.
But some church members saw a different side of Giunta.
During a medical mission to Thailand in November, Giunta wore a stethoscope as he examined children, said Angie Silla, a Las Vegas nurse who went on the trip. In one case, Giunta provided a liver cleanse to a Thai woman who had hepatitis, Silla said. That’s a medical no-no, she said, and the woman turned up later with severe abdominal pain.
Giunta denied doing anything improper, insisting he was simply following the orders of a medical doctor on the trip.
After returning from Thailand, Silla became determined to expose Giunta. She checked state licensing agencies and found that neither Giunta nor his wife had any kind of license to practice medicine, psychology, marriage and family therapy, social work or drug and alcohol counseling.
Silla’s concerns alarmed another church member, who asked Giunta for copies of his degrees. In March, Giunta obliged. A quick Google search revealed the degrees were worthless.
That moved church leaders to take action. They sent out an April 30 letter to all congregants saying the church would stop making referrals to Giunta because of concerns about his credentials.
At that point, however, county officials had struck a new deal with Giunta.
•••
In August 2007, Voy agreed to meet Giunta for lunch at Desert Pines Golf Club, not far from the family courthouse.
Giunta showed up at the lunch with a woman named Kim Johnson and three We Care board members, including the two Metro detectives. They proposed an outpatient drug and alcohol addiction recovery program based in the Henderson-Green Valley area.
The program struck a chord with Voy because there was only one such counseling program in town, just west of downtown. That’s a problem, especially for juveniles in Boulder City.
The presence of Metro detectives helped ease Voy’s previous concerns.
The group told Voy that Johnson was certified and would manage the program, he said. He liked the program, but told them to get approval from the county’s juvenile justice services department.
An Aug. 14 letter from We Care to the county listed four staff members, including Giunta and his wife. The county signed the deal Aug. 23 and referred 29 juveniles to the program at a cost of $9,500.
State licensing officials have since expressed concerns.
Wendy Lay, executive director of the state board of drug and alcohol counselors, said such a program would require the provider to be licensed by her agency. None of the staff members listed in We Care’s letter is licensed, she said. Neither is Kim Johnson.
In March, the county got a call from Johnson saying she had left We Care. The county investigated and found that interns from UNLV were running the program without any oversight. It canceled Giunta’s contract and later discovered Johnson was not licensed, either.
Giunta insists the program was strictly educational in nature and did not require licensed personnel.
•••
During an interview last week, Giunta and his wife said they thought their degrees were legitimate.
“I had heard of other pastors getting honorary degrees for their life work,” Giunta said. “I thought, ‘That will just make the ministry go further.’ ”
He said he submitted two books he had written, the 9/11 memoir and a grief recovery workbook he wrote with his wife. One served as his master’s thesis, the other as his doctoral dissertation, he said.
Giunta said he and his wife didn’t know the degrees were bogus until church leaders confronted them in March.
“We are not defending any of this,” Giunta said. “We are not defending the pain, hurt and confusion that came from those degrees.”
He has since gotten rid of his CARE-
DOC license plate and no longer uses the salutation “doctor.”
“I think our mistake is that we never should have stopped being just Ray and Cathy,” he said.
During the interview at We Care’s new offices at Paradise Baptist Church, Giunta teared up as he thought about the children he would no longer be able to help.
Meanwhile, two staffers in medical-style smocks kept themselves busy around the office.
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I felt compelled to comment after reading this article. Mr. Giunta has done some remarkable lifechanging counseling to literately thousands of hurting, struggling individuals and families in great need. I know first hand. I can only hope that these people stand up and let it be known. I understand the controversy but the fact of the matter is that Mr. Giunta has gone above and beyond with selfless sacrifice to try to help so many. It would be great if you could research what lifechanging affects he's had on so many and then do an article of your findings. Thank-you, Steve Tarantino
Ray Giunta has been nothing but helpful to my family and many many others in crisis. He is an awesome man of God who does this work from his heart. As far as I'm concerned he has been much more effective than the "doctors" I have been involved with in helping people I know with addictions. His knowledge, concern and compassion are worth more than any degree. I would rather a loved one counsel with him than anyone with an MD behind thier name. I pray that he continues to do the incredible work he is known for. Judy Gregory
Hopefully your readers won't "throw the baby out with the bathwater". Yes, Mr Guinta was probably wrong to assume titles that were not properly earned. HOWEVER, I spent over $150,000 with properly credentialed mental health care professionals for my son, and if I assess the benefit he received from all of these professionals combined, it doesn't scratch the surface when compared to the life-changing affect Mr. Guinta was able to accomplish. And more important, Mr. Guinta never asked for a dime, and was never paid a dime by me or anyone on my behalf. As difficult as it may be to understand in today's society, Mr. Guinta does what he does out of the goodness of his heart. To portray him as a someone who intentionally committed fraud for the purpose of financial gains, could not be a more inaccurate portrayal of this man.
MA
MA wrote "To portray him as a someone who intentionally committed fraud for the purpose of financial gains, could not be a more inaccurate portrayal of this man."
MA,
I've known Ray for some time now in a couple of different settings. The article never stated that he committed fraud for financial gain. (Although the NY Times article clearly makes this connection with a previous incident.)
Money isn't Ray's motive, fame is. Ray commits fraud because he seeks renown and fame and because he thinks he is free to create his own ethical standards. Life is complex and we all struggle with our issues and this is Ray's. Most of us stay on the correct side of the ethical line but Ray has chosen to walk over that line several times and then appealed to ignorance or misunderstanding when caught or confronted. Helping people is one thing. Pretending to be a doctor is quite another.
There is no question that he has helped many people in significant ways and people who know him would agree that he is gifted and compassionate. However, when confronted, the compassionate Ray becomes the manipulator who demonizes any who would call him to account for his actions and words.
The sad truth is that he is a master manipulator AND he desires to help people. His ongoing drive to deceive and impress gets the better of him and has caused much pain to those around him.
I am grateful that the Sun exposed him and I hope he discovers that he can make a difference without the lies and narcissistic behavior he has exhibited for much of his career.
MA wrote "To portray him as a someone who intentionally committed fraud for the purpose of financial gains, could not be a more inaccurate portrayal of this man."
MA,
I've known Ray for some time now in a couple of different settings.
Money isn't Ray's motive, fame is. Ray commits fraud because he seeks renown and because he thinks he is free to create his own ethical standards. Life is complex and we all struggle with our issues and this is Ray's. Most of us stay on the right side of the ethical line but Ray has chosen to walk over that line several times and then appealed to ignorance or misunderstanding when caught or confronted. Helping people is one thing. Pretending to be a doctor is quite another.
There is no question that he has helped many people in significant ways and people who know him would agree that he is gifted and compassionate. However, when confronted, the compassionate Ray becomes the manipulator who demonizes any who would call him to account for his actions and words.
The sad truth is that he is a master manipulator AND he desires to help people. His ongoing drive to deceive and impress gets the better of him and has caused much pain to those around him.
I am grateful that the Sun exposed him and I hope he discovers that he can make a difference without the lies and narcissistic behavior he has exhibited for much of his career.
You break the law, you have to pay. What if this had happened with a teacher who had falsified his credentials? Do you think we should still pay this individual because he was a Wiz in front of the classroom? If you are a FRAUD, you have to pay the piper and assume the embarrassment for acting under false pretenses. Sorry, I cannot accept Ray for the colossal fraud he is.
I felt compelled to comment after reading this article. Mr. Giunta has done some remarkable life changing counseling to literally thousands of hurting, struggling, individuals and families in great need. I know first hand. I can only hope that these people stand up and let it be known. I understand the controversy but the fact of the matter is that Mr. Giunta has gone above and beyond with selfless sacrifice to help so many. It would be great if you could research what life changing affects he's had on so many and then do an article of your findings. Thank-you. Steve T.
"Mr. Giunta has done some remarkable life changing counseling to literally thousands of hurting, struggling, individuals and families in great need. I know first hand."
People said the same things about Jim Jones and I think it is best to be wary. I am not condemning him, but I think Vegas1090 makes some astute observations.
What people are forgetting is that this guy made mental evaluations on teens. These kids now have permanent medical records that show diagnosis from an unlicensed counselor.
Even if this guy did some good, he did it through manipulation and lies. I would sure hate to have this guy counsel me! He could tell me all kinds of things that were wrong with me or project his own feelings on the situation.
This guy is a liar and a manipulator and completely self-obsessed. I can't believe that these church's and the city did not do there homework and make sure that this guy was certified/licensed. And he went on mission's trips and treated children medically there. Shame on him for endangering the lives of these children. Shame on the church's and city for not doing there homework. This guy needs to go to jail.
Regardless of how many people this person may have "helped", he KNOWINGLY side-stepped every system to do it his own way so he would have zero accountability and could make money from it. I personally know an ex-staff member at Central Christian that tried to get their pastors to evaluate and research Giunta's motives and legitimacy. In return, she was the one who was looked down on and lost her job, when in fact she was stating TRUTH. Giunta was concerned about being exposed by her and it was all about what he had to do to protect himself. I only hope the leadership at Central Christian and at all the other places that were duped by Giunta have the wisdom to listen next time. God Bless Ms. Silla for her follow-through to have him exposed. So many other people were afraid to do that because Giunta threatens lawsuits for defamation. Now who's the one that should be sued???
By the way, I have a Ph.D.... it's called LIFE. If you need counseling, or help... I've been able to do that and it didn't cost me $769. And I'd probably give myself a higher GPA than Giunta did for his extra $60!
I agree with Vegasgirl. He should go to jail, and his wife too... Maybe they could room together!
I have known Ray for many years.
The words that come to my mind:
• scum bag,
• criminal,
• wolf in sheep’s clothing
• villain
• scoundrel
• rouge
• immoral
• scandals
We warned Central Christian Church before they hired him. We were affected by him in Sacramento. We talked with the pastoral staff and Central Christian Church and they ignored the warnings. We had other pastors that had already dealt with this person, talked with the Staff and Pastors at the church and they were shocked.
Shame on the staff @ CCC.
This man will show up in the next Town, at the next disaster and the next major world event and prey on the innocent in the name of God and under the covering of his deceit. Let’s expose the man and put an ankle bracelet on him to track his wear about so he can't deceive the innocent.
I breathed a deep sigh of relief when I read this article. I would strongly encourage the RJ/Sun to dig deeper. You have only begun to scratch the surface on the history that Ray Guinta has with churches. There is a trail from the east coast to the west coast of churches who have been conned by him. He finally has got caught in his own web. Sadly, I believe that Ray Guinta really believes he is helping people and is unable to see the path of destruction that he leaves behind him. Indeed, in crisis situations Ray can be very effective, but any type of long term relationship with him leads to devastation. Ms. Silla's diligence and courage is to be commended! Many before her have tried to put a stop to his deception and manipulation. Pastors at Hope Baptist were also warned, like the pastors at Central, by a few brave souls who tried to speak up; but Ray's charming ways led church officials to believe that the persons trying to warn them were spreading rumors. Church leaders need to take a step back and be more intentional in checking a person's credentials, reference, and previous employers. Church leaders also need to take a stand and reconcile with members who have been hurt by their negligence.
Most con people are very outgoing and charming people.
You just love to be around them. They walk into a room and shine.
If you have a trouble love one then you love ones will love being around these positive, outgoing and charming people.
But because they are living a complete lie then usually they have very bad motives or they have something wrong in the head.
I would not recommend anybody to hang around or let others hang around con folk. You will pay a price.
I think what some of you have forgotten is that Ray is an ordained minister who does not need a license or degree to counsel people or provide assessments for the courts.
Since he has written several books and curriculum that is currently used in treatment centers today and think it would make sense that an "honorary" degree would be reasonable.
When he was made aware of the issue of the not "fake" but the unaccreditated degree, it was dealt with.
Ray's expertise in the area of assessment and crisis intervention is undeniable, if you don't like the online honorary degree, then don't use him.
Oh, and by the way, isn't a colon cleanse an over the counter item?
"When he was made aware of the issue of the not "fake" but the unaccreditated degree, it was dealt with."
I believe you are saying…
Giunta paid an “University” $800 for a Masters and a PHD.
The only “work” performed by Giunta for the degrees was to answer a personal life experience survey online.
Five days later Guinta got the diploma in the mail.
I believe that you are saying that those diplomas are real just not accredited.
Wow!!!!!!!!! This says a lot on how you think.
Here are the some options to ponder:
1. Giunta is a complete idiot who believes that paying someone $800 for a Masters and PHD and believes it is a legitimate Masters and PHD.
2. Giunta is a nut who believes that paying someone $800 for a Masters and PHD and believes it is a legitimate Masters and PHD.
3. Giunta knowingly purchased a fake Masters and PHD for $800.
I think the answer is number 3 but I willing to accept that others believe that number 2 is the correct assumption.
If one believes number 1, then that person is very likely to believe anything that Giunta says.
jbug,
You are correct, as an ordained minister you are more than free to provide counseling, PASTORAL counseling. However, to pose as someone entirely different is considered unethical. There is an actual psychological board that mandates ethical/legal requirements for those practicing psychology. It is there to PROTECT people from harm and injustice. And please, an "honorary" degree? That would be like calling myself a cop if I have gun, I stand up for justice, and have a long time history working with children in the hood. Maybe someone at Claim Jumper will give me a sheriff's badge to help me with my new image. P.S. A doctorate in psychology typically takes 4-6 years for a reason.
I have no doubt Ray Giunta has done amazing work during the course of his life - I've seen lives touched by his work. I've also witnessed first hand the devastating effects he has also had. I agree with Vegas1090 - Ray seeks fame and recognition and unfortunately at the expense of others. Claiming ignorance has got him off the hook way too much.
Thank you to those who were diligent enough to expose him. You are helping protect people in the future by raising awareness of his patterns and history.
jfnance32,
Wow, how do you know what Ray did to recieve the honorary degree? Are you all knowing too? 20 Years of experience, 2 bachelors, and specific training in the area of truama and crisis intervention is a lot to put on the table. I know of people that have gotten honorary doctorates with alot less.
If you believe everything you read, you must be a very confused individual.
vegasbaby,
"Posing" means you had to have knowlegde that you were willfully trying to decieve. If he really wanted to decieve he would of charged enormous amounts of money for his expertise, but that isn't the case. It's interesting that the people that have been helped know Ray and his heart and know that he would never purposely decieve them.
You might want to look up Pastoral counseling and see what it is and talk to any pastor that has worked with troubled people, it is more than quoting a few scriptures and praying!
On to bigger and better things.
jbug:
I guess you are now saying that Giunta received an Honorary degree from an unaccreditated university and not a fake degree.
Hmmm...why did he get transcipts and a GPA. I do not think they give those out for a Honorary degree.
Giunta has a history of telling lies and running con's.
If you want to be one of his suckers then go right ahead.
jbug,
At the Youth Firesetting Intervention Program Ray was recommended for "Pastoral Counseling". But as the article clearly states he did MUCH more than that. In documents that were submitted to the courts not only did he give assessments of juveniles and recommendations for treatment. He also DIAGNOSED children with mental health disorders.
This is NOT the work of a Pastor Counseling. He has no training or schooling OR licensing in this field. As I said in my earlier comment. These CHILDREN now have permanent medical records diagnosing them with mental disorders. He had NO right to do this, we have no idea how far reaching the consequences of his actions are.
If you still believe that he is a "good" guy then you are just sucked into the charming deceit of this man.
I can't believe that Jbug is defending theses perpetrators. You might say that their hearts were into helping people, but helping people dishonestly is not helping people at all. The youth needs community professionals to model appropriate behavior. To justify or even defend fraud is to teach the youth to take shortcuts, to con others to get what you need whether satisfaction of helping another or money, and to be dishonest. People in our nation expect more, this is why thorough education which is 6 years for a Master's is required for professional therapist. This is a slap in the face to people who work hard to attain the degree, and a contributor to the mistrust and resistance that many professionals depend on to establish a real helping client/counselor relationship.
I am getting my education for this area of expertise (counseling). The golden rule for helping professionals is to do no harm to the client. Lying about your professional creditability is harming a client.
My first thought is that Jbug is probably Ray Guinta "posing" as Jbug to defend his actions. IF you aren't, then sadly you are still under his spell of charm. Be careful!
Regardless of what terms the degree was under, I know for a fact that Ray Guinta carried around a business card and referred to himself as a Clinical Psychologist. FRAUD!!! It takes years of education, internships with clinical hours and passing national exams to be a clinical psychologist. YOU CAN'T BUY THAT TITLE! YOU CAN'T GET AN HONORARY DEGREE to call yourself a Clinical Psychologist...it is a professional license. Ray's business card should have said pastoral counseling if that was what he was doing. Ray was (is?) also a member of the American Association of Christian Counselors and their code of ethics strictly forbids his actions as being ethical. Starting with the second Cod doing NO HARM OR EXPLOTATION ALLOWED (CODE 1-102) and it even covers discussing even if it was intended or not! Jbug....go to www.aacc.net/about-us/code-of-ethic/ and you will see the guide lines Ray was suppose to be following as a pastoral counselor! He wasn't! This also is a professional organization that complaints can be filed against him.
Oh yeah, and one more thing to Jbug's quote..."Its interesting that people that have been helped know that Ray and his heart and know that he would never purposely decieve them."
Guess what...I knew Ray. I know people Ray "helped". They feel like they were decieved!!! I also know lives that were destroyed by Ray, but he is so quickly onto the next crisis that he isn't probably even aware of his trail of destruction.
The truth always comes out!
Christians be on alert! Don't trust everyone! Have discernment! Church leaders- please pay attention to people alerting you to a pastor's character! The Bible is clear- this kind of "two faced" living is not what Jesus is about.
Central Christian Church leadership owes apologies for not investigating the matter further when they were told something was not right with their new hire (Mr. Giunta) five years ago; and to the people they tried to silence when truth was being exposed. Shame on you.
PS: I think jbug is Mr. Giunta too.
Watchful Eye makes some great points. I personally have been in contact with ECA (Evangelical Christian Alliance) where Guinta is an ordained minister. They are in the process of conducting an investigation into the actions of Ray Guinta.
If you have any information that you can contribute to their investigation please contact Sam Goebel at sam@ecainternational.org.
As detate states "This man will show up in the next Town, at the next disaster and the next major world event and prey on the innocent in the name of God and under the covering of his deceit."
Please help by reporting these ethical issues.
just a few points I'd like to make...
1. If an intern is running the show then "we care" is a joke. How about I let jrotc students fight in Bagdad?
2. A sixth grader can tell you that if you can pay money to elevate your GPA then something is wrong.
3. Ray is Paid!! The crook has like 5 houses and his net worth is well over a million dollars. I guess Jesus pays well even if you aren't accredited by the state. The moral of this is get in tight with Jesus and you can circumvent the system.
4. Ray employs his whole family, including his drug addicted 19 year old with a baby to asses and teach kids sent by the court.
5. Nothing will happen to Ray and Cathy because they are rich and white. Jesus saves, and money keeps crooks out of jail.
6. Lastly, every criminal who was sent to "we care" for criminal evaluation will now be fully exhonerated because Ray is a fraud. Let the crimanls LOOSE!!!!!!!!!
4.
Let me ask this question to each of you who has posted scathing and libelous comments?
How many of you sit in church on Sunday, have your reflective time each day with Christ, commune with God and ask, nee BEG, for his forgiveness for your eternal salvation and after posting your comment can still call yourself a Christian??!!
I believe in right and wrong. Unearned educational degrees - wrong; Learning humility and humbleness - right.
Call off the dogs. Don't you think Ray is suffering, is carrying his cross, and will - in the eyes of the LORD - be forgiven.
And after all isn't that what a life with Christ is about? Sinning and repeating those sins and asking for forgiveness continuously. GOD alone will judge Ray's actions. You don't have to like the guy; but you do have to honor Christ's call to love your brother as you would want to be loved.
For those of you who post these horribly libelous and character assassinating comments - if you regard yourself as a true Christian, then stop perpetuating these posts.
p.s. This is written by someone who has a constant battle with my faith, because of this very reason - if you are proclaiming yourself to be a Christian, and you posted such comments, you are no Christian in my book - but as you have accused of another, an impostor.
Jbug,
With your various defenses of Ray, how do you justify the stethoscope?
How many pastoral counselors, people who have received honorary doctorates or even licensed, accredited (legal) Psychologists go around in a lab coat and stethoscope?
A stethoscope speaks to a medical doctor who uses it to check your heart and lungs. Even a psychologist is not a medical doctor. Or are you now claiming that Ray was an honorary Psychiatrist complete with prescriptive ability?
The stethoscope shows everything we need to know about Ray. He clearly intended to deceive and he clearly has delusions of grandeur. The article indicates that he only wore it when overseas on a mission trip where he thought no one would notice such a massive deception. The poor lady with stomach cramps sure did notice. And, thank God, so did the nurse who was traveling with him.
JusticeforChrist:
Weird logic:
"if you are proclaiming yourself to be a Christian, and you posted such comments, you are no Christian in my book - but as you have accused of another, an impostor."
If I understand the logic of this statement, then by your own logic you are not a Christian for you are also accusing others.
Justiceforchrist,
I agree with you that Ray is loved by God and in need of God's grace like the rest of us. In fact many people who know Ray and have been hurt by him are concerned for he and Cathy and the kids.
Repentance, however, means coming to grips with what you have done. Ray himself has taught a recovery model using the twelve steps of addiction. Steps 4 through 9 are beneficial here:
Step 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
I don't think anyone here feels superior to Ray. I think you're simply seeing grave concern over recurring patterns and lack of amends. Ray won't change if he doesn't come to grips with his self deception.
Unless Ray has had a change of heart (and I pray that he has) this article indicates that he is pretending to be ignorant of his actions rather than admitting he did them knowingly. This is old territory for Ray and has been well documented already.
Ray's response in this article is the most troubling, “I had heard of other pastors getting honorary degrees for their life work,” Giunta said. “I thought, ‘That will just make the ministry go further.’ ”
I'm sorry, Ray is simply not this naive to truly believe that he could practice as a Psyd.D without accreditation. His response shows that he still is not fully admitting what he did.
Forgiven? Sure. Repented? Only God knows. Did Ray break the law here? That's up to the officials involved.
Dear jfnance32,
My confusion and questions about Christian behavior have been clarified thanks to your response. Guess I'll be going to the hot spot ...
Over and forever out. Christ has been justified.
I am not a christian. So I could care less what you think about me.
Justice for christ are you insane?? Carrying his cross???!!?!? Look take Jesus and invisable people in the sky out of the equation and deal in fact for a moment. If you are a con artist and get caught, you go to jail. And just because this guy reps christ, he's a victim??? Tell you what, pay me to remodel your bathroom and when it leaks and isn't to code and you have to move out you can say "thats okay he is forgiven he has his cross to bear"
You are a philistine
How sad! If Ray had never done anything wrong (which he clearly did), he would never have been in the paper and none of these comments would be posted. It is obvious by all the comments that there is a lot of pain out there caused by Ray Guinta. The people I know that were hurt by Ray have yet to hear him take responsiblity for the harm he caused or seek their for forgiveness. However, the people I know who he hurt, have forgiven him. When someone has forgiven another person for harming them, they still are responsible to take a stand for truth! They are still responsible to do what they can to protect others from harm (especially when the person hasn't taken resonsiblity for their actions.
Oh and one more thing...indeed Jesus did tell us to love, but he also said in Matthew 7:15 "Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other." (Message Translation. Lets not be NAIVE with our religious comments.
Central Christian Church unleashed Ray Guinta on the Central Family. The Executive Team was warned about Ray by so many others. People from outside of the Central Family and from within. For years and months Central Christian Church watched him hurt hundreds of families. The insult was when Central Christian Church continued to pay Ray Guinta after he left. The Central Family supported Ray Guinta with their tithes and offerings for several years. I hope that some of those Central families come forward and confront Ray and Central Christian Church. Everyone on that Executive Team should be investigated.
Come clean Central Christian!
I have learned the Giuntas are looking at property in Knoxville, Tn. I suspect new operations will start there.
WTH
Word is this guy has been a fraud for years - he caused a ruckus on the east coast - disrupting a church he worked for or with - tried to unseat the pastor and then headed out here to do the same at Central.
Good riddance! He's the type of guy that keeps someone like me out of church.
close examination will show that Giunta doesn't only go to crisis sites, HE CREATES THEM!
I have been watching this thread since this article came out. I am old enough to realize that people make mistakes, but young enough to believe the best in people. I would like to see a follow-up article on this with Ray and Cathy's response.
I lived in Maryland when Ray and Cathy were on the staff of a church there and I also attended that church. I can tell you first had that they did not try to unseat the pastor, though my personal opinion is that would have been a good thing.
This is just too sad. Like you speedy, I knew Ray and Cathy when they lived in Maryland and they were very kind to my two sons - who needed a positive male role model.
When my sister sent me this email today I couldn't believe this is the Ray I knew.
I too want to believe the best but I also recognize a pattern when I see one. Four churches (by my count), four controversies, one common denominator.
I hope Ray gets the help he seems to need. I pray for him, Cathy and the children.
It is very sad to see that someone with such potential to do good in this world can be so destructive. I too am a witness of the calamity left behind in Maryland. The Guintas definitely created division of long standing church members with many leaving the church. I pray those members who left will get the opportunity to see this article. God reveals the truth in his timing. Speedy you got it all wrong, perhaps you were one of those members influenced by Ray. My children and I have walked through many years of life with the Leaders in the church you speak of and they are all genuine with high integrity including the Pastor.
I learned something in Elementary school. If the Boston Redsox play the New York Yankees and you pick up the sports sections from each city, you often wonder if they are reporting on the same baseball game.
While the facts in this story may be true, we all do not know the context. I am glad that a Holy God does the judging, that is too much responsibility for me.
When these people had left the church, did anyone ask them why? I know when I stopped attending the church I had gone to for many years, no one asked me why. SunshineOnTheBay, perhaps you should talk to the people that left, you may find yourself enlightened.
ok speedy,
then tell us why you left?
i agree with sunshine completely!!
Isn't amazing how as always Giunta has taken the attention off himself by attacking others?
That's what he did at Central - and he's still up to it.
Let's remember this is about Ray and his fake doctor credentials!
enough already - real christians settle their disputes privately.
jesus weeps while satan laughs
i_want_the_truth,
I'll be glad to talk about why I stopped attending a specific church. Would you forwarding your email address and we can discuss it off line? You can make up a gmail, yahoo, or hotmail account to stay anonymous if you prefer.
I like this idea of handling disputes privately, I think it is biblical. I have a question for baygirl, who is that directed toward? All too often church leaders will throw around Matthew 18 as a way to handle conflict. I agree, that is the model God gave us, but it is too often used as for manipulation and guilt. I believe somewhere in the bible that if an pastor is in a sinful behavior, two people go to him, which is a different situation than a 'normal' attender. How do these two people know about the situation if they have not talked previously?
speedy
if you want to contact me privately, i would be happy to guide you through my understanding of the process - what is clear is that regardless of who is right and who is wrong, this is not the forum.
baygirl
baygirl,
How would you prefer being contacted?
I would like to emphasize my reason for posting in the first place. I do my best not to judge, but being human, I tend to do it anyway. That is my sin and I own it, I just pray that God lifts that from me and I can rest in knowing that He is the ultimate judge.
I knew Ray and Cathy in Md. and I truly liked them. Did they make mistakes? I don't know. Do they matter to God? Absolutely!
I can see that this discussion could get ugly and personal; and frankly, I am not going there. If anyone wants to discuss this off line in the proper forum, give me a way to contact you and we can discuss it then.
This is an absolutely heartbreaking story and while many commentators are talking about the help the the Giutas gave them you need to know that they do have a history of causing church divisions almost everywhere they have gone. They did similar tactics to those listed above at a couple of main churches that they served in the Sacramento area. Also, while they did have the right motives and means to help people I agree that they got blinded by the fame and notoriety that happened along the way. While we aren't to judge, how can anybody justify the false degrees? What about the stethoscope? What about using your own young children as interns without the proper education and background checks? With that said, I also have to question the churches that quietly sent Ray and Cathy on their way without warning or with very little warning. Isn't the Shepherd supposed to protect HIS flock? In my opinion more people got hurt because of such actions with all parties involved and it is the Giuntas themselves that are in need of counsel now...both spiritual and legal. This should be a testimonty to those out there that if God gives you a gift HE will supply and meet your needs and strengthen your ministry. You don't have to resort to the tactics that the Giuntas did...They lost their focus and now possibly everything else.
Why do you feel I need to know that they have a history of causing church divisions?
I have known the Giuntas and their family for a number of years and I haven't see such a history. I have seen them help churches that are going through crisis, and as a result of the crisis, people have left. But they did not leave because of them, they left in spite of them. I know these people, I trust them, and I support them.
What I NEED to know is what I know to be true, that is that Ray and Cathy are good people, but human and are capable of making mistakes just like I do.
Jesus had 12 disciples, men that HE personally chose who dedicated themselves to do HIS work for kingdom glory NOT self glory. 2 of those disciples betrayed him. One was Judas and the other was Peter. Peter sought redemption and went on to further his ministry for the Lord...Judas refused and met a deadly fate at his own hands. He could have sought redemption but CHOSE not to. The point is to not lose your focus and integrity. Again, how can you explain the "false" degrees? The stethoscope? The mismanagement of money? The church divisions that have been reported that you know nothing about? While there may be exceptions in one case remember that the facts line up to one thing, the fact that the Giunta's weren't upfront and honest about what they were doing and I can't believe that they were that incredibly naive. While I don't doubt that they did some good things, lets hope that with some repentance on their part that they can find redemption and be able to continue with their ministry but if they don't do this, then I don't see how they can possibly continue on. Too many people have been hurt and affected by this. Instead of feeling sorry for Ray and Cathy feel sorry for the people who feel betrayed and whose trust has been violated and finally for the poor woman whose illness was worse after she sought treatment from the man that she believed was a "true" doctor!
Sunny,
Are you intimate with the details of this/these situations or are you just pontificating?
Yes...I have first hand account of these situations and my family was personally affected and hurt through them and that is all I will ever say on the matter. Period, end of subject. Again this is a very sad situation and my prayers go out to ALL the parties involved including the Giuntas.
Sunny, Sonny, (others perhaps),
I tend to question the validity of claims from people that use multiple identities. Period, end of subject.
It's very interesting that you question the credibility of the many commentators but not that of the Guinta's themselves and they are the ones that brought on these problems themselves...very, very interesting. It's obvious that you doubt the credibilty of others and this article itself...well that's your opinion and since you are obiviously a friend or even a family member I just hope that you don't get hurt like other people have been but at least you can't say that you haven't been warned!
Sonny,
Yes, I am a friend, but not a family member.
What I question is a person, or people, that use multiple identities to post comments on blogs.
I consider myself to be a loyal friend, but not blind. I don't stop being a friend just because someone makes a mistake; what kind of friend would that be. I want a friend that sticks by me through the good and bad times and the is the kind of friend I want to be.
My point boils down very simply. I try to be slow to judge and quick to forgive. Just because someone put words to paper, or text on a web site, does not make it true. I do not believe something to be true, just because someone claims it so (exception being Jesus).
I am open to the possibility that these claims are not quite what they appear to be. There is a pastor that is local to where I live that has been ripped apart by the papers. If someone just sat with that pastor and took the time to understand what his side of the story was, you would see the articles as what they are -- trash.
I am open to the possibility that there is another side to this story as well. Perhaps if you sat down with Ray and Cathy and got their side of the story, you would see what I see in the local pastor here.
I am not trying to cause an argument, I am just hoping that we can see the best in people instead of judging. Perhaps we will be right if we assume the best.
So what happened??? Is this guy in jail yet??? This was a real interesting story, including all the comments. To sum up what I learned, this guy sucks and there are some dumb dumbs out there
Nothing criminal was done. Why would anyone go to trial for this?