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North Las Vegas resident Robert McGlothin, left, listens to North Las Vegas firefighter Gary Polk in a neighborhood near Aliante Parkway and I-215 Tuesday, July 10, 2012. The firefighters are trying to increase community attendance at the North Las Vegas Mayor’s community meeting on Wednesday, July 11.
By J. Patrick Coolican (contact) 
Friday, July 13, 2012 | 2 a.m.
J. Patrick Coolican
Off-duty North Las Vegas firefighters walked precincts this week, telling residents to pressure the city to reverse cuts in emergency services, including the rotating closure of one or two of the city’s eight firehouses any given day.
The firefighters can’t rely on their own votes in upcoming elections. Very few of them live in North Las Vegas.
Of the 171 fire department employees, only 13, or 8 percent, live in North Las Vegas, according to the city.
They average nearly $140,000 in wages and benefits, according to the city, so I guess we can hardly blame them for choosing to live in the tonier areas of the valley rather than beaten down Northtown.
Still, it seems a bit presumptuous to be telling citizens of North Las Vegas, people who actually live there, how they should deal with the city’s $31.9 million deficit. (Yep, I fall in this category, too.)
Come to think of it, maybe North Las Vegas should require public employees to live there so workers have a bit more stake in its recovery.
The city of Las Vegas has no residency requirement, but Boston and Chicago public employees have to live within city limits, and New Jersey state workers must live in the Garden State.
Jeff Hurley, the president of the firefighters union, lives in Las Vegas. He told me that although most of his members don’t live in North Las Vegas, they work there and are concerned about patient safety. (The vast majority of 911 calls for fire department help — 83 percent — are for medical reasons.)
“We know fires double in size every 60 seconds. We know survivability decreases with every minute” in a severe medical emergency, he said.
North Las Vegas Fire Capt. Jeff Hurley poses by a ladder truck at Fire Station 56 near Aliante Parkway and I-215 in North Las Vegas Tuesday, July 10, 2012. The station is not always open or open with reduced staff due to staffing problems, Hurley said. The station was open on Tuesday but without a rescue unit.
Previously, the city’s private ambulance company and fire crews would both respond to emergencies together, which reduced response times and is considered the industry gold standard.
The city’s current plan is to allow its private ambulance contractor to handle lower-level medical calls alone (more on that in my next column), lessening the need for fire crews.
I asked Hurley if he had an alternative to the city’s cost-cutting plans. He said other North Las Vegas employees, such as those represented by the Teamsters, weren’t being subjected to the same reductions that have caused firehouse brownouts.
The city counters that 125 employees, 60 of them Teamsters, have been laid off.
In the emergency resolution passed last month allowing the city to suspend public safety contracts, the city says firefighter compensation increased from $27.3 million in fiscal year 2007-08 to an estimated $32.7 million 2012-13.
Even so, the fire department has lost 32 people in the past year, or 15 percent — often to other departments — and replaced none of them, leaving the department the smallest per capita in Southern Nevada.
Because police and fire layoffs would threaten public safety even more, city officials say there was no choice but to suspend police and fire contracts to make necessary cuts.
Hurley noted that the firefighter union has made several rounds of concessions since the recession began, including no cost-of-living increase since 2009, and offered still more this year.
His assessment of the situation: “It’s a sinking ship.”
Hurley recently told the Review-Journal, “I wouldn’t want to live near a closed firehouse.”
Although most North Las Vegas firefighters aren’t likely to live near a closed firehouse given their out-of-town residency status, Hurley is correct that these service cutbacks are far from ideal. The rotating brownouts could force Clark County and Las Vegas emergency personnel to respond to North Las Vegas, creating shortages and increased response times all over the valley.
The fiasco in North Las Vegas, which is largely the result of the bipartisan hubris and myopia of last decade’s housing bubble, should teach us one thing: Bad governance carries consequences.
The Firefighters in North Las Vegas have already had enough pay cuts. In 2009 the highest paid person in the North Las Vegas Fire Department made over $661,000. Last year John Ocegura was the highest paid member but he only made about $452,000. See how much they've given up. Ocegura then retired at age 43 with a pension of over $100,000 a year. Now he's running for Congress. Let's help John qualify for another big government pension. John Ocegura for Congress!
Hell they do not need to live here, for the money these people make they live in Summerlin or Henderson.......which is downright DISGUSTING......but since I live near the downtown corridor of NLV, I will never have to worry about seeing them here.......as is NOT an area with money
Well firefighters, show us a budget that balances without layoffs or pay cuts. I'm sure the city would love to see it.
I have to agree with the decision to stop firetrucks from responding to medical emergencies (83%). I've always wondered why a firetruck is needed for someone with chest pains.
It's my understanding that the Medicwest paramedics make make about $45,000 a year on the high end. Is that correct Darthfrodo, that 83% of the calls for the North Las Vegas Fire Department are actually for medical emergencies? The Firefighters get paid $140,000 a year to answer to the same calls. Why not have Medicwest answer all the calls? Then teach some of the Medicwest people how to fight fires, and have them take over the Fire Department. How many tens of millions of dollars could be saved by doing that?
Yes Steve, that's according to the article. I'm not sure if paramedics want to cross train as firefighters, but that's the kind of brainstorming we need.
Have a good one.
Mr. Brown.
You might be surprised to hear this but the Medicwest paramedics that save your life do not make anything even close to the number you have posted here.
Really is said that the schooling many of them have and the hours they put in how poorly they are paid.
The guys driving the trash trucks make over twice what a Medicwest paramedic does.
What part of "broke" don't these selfish yahoo's understand?
"I've always wondered why a firetruck is needed for someone with chest pains"
__________
It's because they had to do something to justify their existance and salaries when not fighting actual fires so they horned in on the job private ambulance and EMT's can do.
When I was a teenager I lived in a somewhat small town in the south for about a year. My dad, along with the fathers of many of my high school friends, was a volunteer firefighter. As I recall,the mayor of our town was a volunteer firefighter along with our county D.A. We even had a prominent neurosurgeon volunteer for the dept. I remember it being a point of pride with these guys that they didn't need any assistance from the large fire department who worked in the "big city" several miles away. I believe our department had one full time employee doing some kind of administrative work but everything else was done on a volunteer basis only.
It is incomprehensible that our local firefighters are so grossly overpaid, especially considering that a high school diploma was the only requirement when they were hired. When I think about the volunteer firefighters we had, it makes me laugh because I believe EVERY one of those guys had at least earned a master's degree. Several, like my dad,had earned at least one Ph.D. Not to mention the neurosurgeon and the two other medical doctors who volunteered their time.
Our local firefighters seem to view themselves as indispensable. They are ungrateful and arrogant and should be replaced. It wouldn't be difficult at all.
Just because they do not live in the city, does not mean they do not support local businesses. Ask people who work in NLV, both public and private the following questions: Where do you buy gas? Where do you eat lunch? Where do you shop on your lunch hour or on your way home? I spend an average of 100.00 per week on gas, work/coffee supplies (since my employer doesn't provide this "luxury"), stuff for the house on the way home, etc. If all those former NLV employees(600) spent even half of that every week, that is 30,000.00 spent every week in NLV (multiply that out over 52 weeks and see the numbers). That is how much the mismanagement of NLV officials have cost the City and the businesses located there.
BChap's video commentary via "You Tube" on law enforcement and the financial crisis in North Las Vegas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLBDvnQz...
Laughing, see what I get when I play with high tech stuff, I put in the deleted video. Ooops on that one Brad, I'll try again to do this right. Hey, what do you expect from an old man!!!
If I was making 140k a year and I had a choice I wouldn't live in NLV either. There's a lot of undesirable areas in NLV. You can have a very nice house in NLV (hell, Siegfried and Roy have a massive compound there)...the problem is once you step out your front door to run errands, shop, eat, go to the park....you get the idea. I'd live in Henderson, Summerlin too.
Okay with a temp fix to my hoarse voice from singing, and the right video from "You Tube" commentary ready, lets try this again "Bradley Old Bean"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_2RYZpUp...
So yesterday am traveling south on Maryland Parkway at Flamingo.......medical incident at bus stop....MedicWest is already on site tending to patient, and Clark County Fire and rescue pulls up for an assist. I think ALL the FDs are broken here.....protect and SERVE....so we have TWO emergency service vehicles, tending to ONE individual....redundancy might be fine, but THIS is ridiculous.
The fire fighters in NLV make 140,000 Thousand a year ,,, Pay the fire fighters 50,000 a year and NLV will SAVE then 15 Million Dollars a year ,,,There are a lot of people out of work and they would love to have a job and make 50.000 Thousand a year !!! ,,, The Well Is BONE DRY !!!!
North Las Vegas has received a terrible image because of its financial problems and the decisions it has made in the face of economic headwinds in recent years. The lion's share of the blame rests on the backs of the City's last two mayors, current Mayor Shari Buck and her predecessor Mike Montandon. Their leadership has been questionable at best. Montandon failed to watch and listen to the winds of change as they begin in the 2006 time frame and continued to spend and cut deals with big name developers who had committed to sell homes to investors
in North Las Vegas communities,contrary in many instances to the purchase agreements which prohibited turning over these properties within the first year during which these homes would be owner occupied.
In most instances these purchase contracts were not enforced and the properties remained vacant resulting in blight in many neighborhoods.
After Montandon left the scene he was followed by Mayor Buck who climbed into office on the support of the police and fire fighters unions in exchange for granting them lucrative pay and benefit contracts. She has now reversed course and has joined forces with other council members to suspend these contracts. Rather than demonstrating
leadership,Buck has created turmoil on the City Council.
North Las Vegas has received alot of bad national publicity for its financial situation,massive layoffs and it's looming prospect of having its finances taken over by the state. North Las Vegas needs two things right now. First is a new name. As the fourth largest city in Nevada it should not have the image of being a Las Vegas suburb.Next it needs new leadership. Mayor Buck is in over her head and should go.
Do people really want the cheapest worker that will do the job? Much like I don't want to get $250 Lasik surgery, I don't want a firefighter or paramedic that is only making $13 an hour! I want qualified, educated, and experienced workers, and have no qualms about paying for it!
The $140k pay includes overtime and benefits - actual salaries are lower. Don't get me wrong, these guys make good money, but why not ask the City of North Las Vegas about why they choose to go with overtime rather than hiring more FF's? When did we decide that we could afford to pay a firefighter $87K a year? Did that number spike up or has it just been getting higher over the years like everything else in this world?
It's easy to point the finger at the firefighters who do their jobs everyday, following the rules, and putting themselves at risk, while ignoring the mismanagement of our local governments. The Union's are not innocent in this process (check out the travel to out of state home for leadership), but they do not deserve all of the blame.
Probably 99% of the people...if they could do it over again, would become a Las Vegas fire fighter. I would. What's not to like? It's not like NYC where these guys are going into high rises, going into tenement housing, brownstones to fight fires. They re extinguishing single family house fires, trailer fires. Sign me up.
Is the management of N. Las Vegas bad, I've only been here 10 months but it looks that way to me. There should be a complete overhaul of city management. Also, PD and FD unions need to stop being so greedy when most folks are working two minimum wage jobs with no benefits in an attempt to get by!
In addition, there should be a residency requirement for public service employees of the city. Period!
let nlv fiLe bankruptcy...
void all the contracts...
cut oceguera's pension by 2/3rds...
replace the entire department with newbie's at $45k...
now that boys and girls...
you know what you call that...
A GOOD FRICKIN START!!!
A couple more things....
The thought of changing the city name from NLV to something else is dumb and does nothing to fix the underlying problems. Also, I moved here from New Milford CT which has an area of 64 square miles (compared to NLV at 79 square miles). New Milford is a completely a volunteer fire and emergency response system - and it works. Maybe NLV should look at that and see what those savings are?
This is not a shot at the individual NLVFD firefighter (though I am not a fan of the union). I only bring it up for discussion!
$140,000 a YEAR???!!! Holy crap - if I would have known this when living in NLV and was unemployed....
MOST, if not all, FD's across the country have cross-trained fire fighters. Small town firefighters are now trained as paramedics. Way back when I still lived in Chicago, the Chicago Fire Department were cross trained as paremedics, one of the first departments in the country that started to do this.
When a 911 call comes through - WHOEVER is closest is dispatched whether it is an ambulance or fire truck. That's why you see both responding. It's a back up system for emergencies.
Someone mentioned they saw an incident and the paramedics were there already and then a fire truck pulled up. Most likely, the fire truck heard the call and responded anyway - just in case.
If you are having a medical emergency - who the heck cares who shows up first? The cross-trained fire fighters are probably more trained as paramedics then a private ambulance.
This is total BS! " $140,000!!" This is the reason why they need to impose a policy requiring police officers and firefighters to be residents of NLV.
These outsiders come in to NLV - ask for astronomical pay and benefits from the residents of NLV - then they go and spend their money elsewhere!
Fire these people! Get rid of them! There are plenty of NLV residents willing to do the job and provide a better level of professionalism - the kind that doesn't include putting up signs threatening residents that their "safety is no longer guaranteed since police aren't getting the big pay checks." This is extortion! A threat of this nature should be prosecuted just like any other common criminals engaged in extortion!
Get rid of them! Do we not have any aspiring or current politician willing to stand up for the residents of NLV and put an end to this mob mentality?
Fire these people! Fire them now! Enough of these people exploiting NLV and reaping these absurd salaries!
i know firemen...
overpaid, underworked, full of themselves.
big 4 wheel, 2 ton personal pickups jacked up high in the air.
who the hell do those creeps think they are ?
god ?
Tom:
After you have lived here longer you will see why
the name North Las Vegas creates a negative image for the City. North Las Vegas historically has been known as "North Town", which is considered to be the "wrong side of the tracks" in the general area. It also conveys the impression we are a suburb of Las Vegas--we are not.
Recent years have seen NLV incorporate large amounts of land and master planned communities.It is much more modern and has outgrown it old image. We truly need to break the bonds of the bad image, and get a new and more attractive image for our City. Maybe you will see this after being here a while longer. Nontheless I believe it is necessary for our future best interests, and hope we can get it done.
Until the city is willing to draw a line in the sand with the city employee unions, this is going to continue just like we see now. As a NLV resident, I would like the following items as part of the next contracts:
1. New employees must be a resident of NLV.
2. New employees are hired at a new salary scale with an affordable benefit structure (changes in retirement ages, 401K type retirement benefit on base pay only).
And a move to outsourcing some city services. First areas to look at would include park maintenance and utility maintenance.
Combine some city services. Why does the city have a public affairs office along with one at the fire department and at the police department. Make it one person for the city.
Using "total compensation" of $140K and comparing it to pay is not an apples-to-apples comparison. I'll bet not one commentator on here has everything their employer pays to employ them added to their pay and called "total compensation". That's a doctored figure used to make someone's pay seem larger than it is.
Check for yourself...
http://www.cityofnorthlasvegas.com/Depar...
tments/HumanResources/Employment/PDFs/Sa
larySchedule/Fire1011.pdf
NLV FFs have made millions of dollars in concessions every year the the last several years. That's millions of dollars x several years.
What if all you firefighters and police had their wages cut to minimum wage. Then what? Don't laugh it happened back east!
@Birdie, you said...
"replace the entire department with newbie's at $45k..."
Check the FF salary schedule, Fire Fighter Trainee is paid $46,593.55 annually.
Retired_Army: I would ADD that any promotion must include acceptance of a new pay scale and benefit package. The State LEGISLATURE HAS TO ACT to allow changes in retirement PERS and probably also for changes in job titles / pay plans--the Legislature "approves" each and every city and county budget so they're in this financial mess and inaction with both hands.
@thewookie,
New Milford is a fairly rural community with about 25K people or 10K actual households. NLV has 10x that.
Volunteers generally live, work and respond in small communities. Additionally, due to the delayed nature of a volunteer response, volunteers rarely stop fires in the room of origin. Imagine a NLV volunteer that worked in Henderson. Employers aren't required to let volunteer FFs leave work for their volunteer duties. If their employer allowed them to leave work, how long would it take a volunteer to respond to the station in NLV to get the fire engine before they could respond to the actual emergency? Think about the traffic in our valley... In our community you'd be lucky if volunteers could show up in time to stomp out the ashes.
Some towns try to save a little time by paying a few people and using volunteers for the rest. This enables someone to bring the equipment to the emergency scene and wait for the volunteers to arrive. But again, this is in small towns where most people live and work within a small radius.
Imagine your home catching on fire. Imagine a fire truck with 1 or 2 FFs arriving but not being able to go inside to put the fire out because they didn't have enough people on scene to do it safely. So they do what they can and spray water from the outside only. Now think about that volunteer leaving Henderson to get to your house fire. By the time your entire house was gutted by fire the volunteer would probably have made it not much closer than the spaghetti bowl. The initial FFs would likely prevent it from spreading to your neighbors house, but odds are your's would be heavily damaged.
Volunteer FFs do great work, but the logistics of a volunteer fire department create a very different response type. A volunteer or partial volunteer force is not a responsible option in a community the size and type of NLV.
@Houstonjac
You can change the name to Utopia, Shangrai-la. It isn't going to change the "element" that is North Las Vegas. It's not the buildings, it's not the houses, it's nothing more than a preponderance of people up there that have no respect for self, property or their neighborhoods. Without trying to sound politically correct, we all know why North Las Vegas is considered by many to be a dump. It's the people. Those that respect property, their neighbors, others property notwithstanding. You've got a rising vandalism problem in NLV. Vandalism is nothing more than an angry individual who sees something nice, he can't have it, so he destroys it. I can fully understand why the firefighters don't live there. I wouldn't either. No name change is going to change that. It comes down to the people. Meet me on the corner of Rancho and Lake Mead and I'll show you first hand why.
Don't forget that's $140k a year for only working 10 days a month. They do 24hr shifts so they get to sleep on the taxpayer dime too.
Time to renegotiate/break the contracts and start over with something affordable and sustainable. Pay, pension & benefit cuts, with retention bonuses for some in order to retain a cadre of experienced personnel. Then new hires -- all of whom will be required to reside in NLV and accept a 401k plan. If the mayor & council can't do their jobs, they need to be replaced.
Good points Buddy. But consider the size and age of a New England house (think tinderbox) and also how far apart houses are not just in relation to each other but also 10 miles or more away from the one of two volunteer stations in town. It works there. Now, maybe you would have to look at more stations spread around the NLV community to cover the denser housing tracts and traffic concerns but.......
And to be honest, with everything I read around here, I dont even know whether to expect a fire truck to show up in case of an emergency. I have the same expectations of the local police department. They seem to be able to give a lot of speeding tickets and are dead shots with chimps, but, show up in an emergency - who knows! Give you an example.
About a month ago accidentally hit the panic button on my house alarm keychain. The fob was in my pocket and the corner of the cell phone must have pushed the button. The panic button mind you! ADT called us but we were outside and did not answer their call and they then confirmed that they called the NLVPD within 5 minutes. A month later they still have not shown up! Gives real confidence!
forgot to mention one thing...
i am a PROUD LIBERAL DEMOCRAT...
but guess what folks...
even us PROUD LIBERAL DEMOCRATS don't like getting screwed!!!
the time to turn the tables on the firefighters is right frickin now!!!
Buddy or should I say Sisyphus,
You are doing an excellent defending your fellow FF's but the PERCEPTION is still derailing your efforts.
Nice try though.
If the CCFD had actually jailed or successfully terminated the OT/Sick leave thieves your posts might have relevance,
They are paid way to much! Looks like if the pay was cut by 50% it would be closer to a fair amount for this occupation. NO public worker should even get a 6 figure salary, EVER, this is the publics money and it needs to be spent more like its the money of those doing the spending !
Public Servants?, firefighters are only out to serve themselves and line their pockets with money. Come on guys this is about the community you are serving not what you can get from the City
I can't believe these guys are so arrogant that they allow their picture and name printed in the paper of a guy making 174K a year and asking for more! WOW!
@Heretic, Sisyphus is pretty accurate. Haters gonna hate (i.e. Birdiedreamin).
Regardless, NLV FFs didn't cause the NLV finance problems and they've saved the citizens million in contract concessions (pay and benefit reductions).
NLV spent over $140 million to build a water treatment plant because they wanted to save the residents from rate hikes. You'd think that the rate hike was going to be astronomical... It was a annual increase of $44. They spent $140 million to save homeowners $3.60 a month. Brilliant!!!!!
Then after the recession had taken its hold what did the NLV managers do?... Spent $130 million to build a new office. Yes, the one they were using was built in the 60s, but it wasn't condemned or anything. In the end the decision was ultimately about increasing comfort and convenience. Oh wait, the new city offices are going to be a beacon for new business and development.... Still waiting. Brilliant!!!!!l
Anyone want to talk ownership or responsibility for wasting a quarter of a billion dollars on these projects? Um, well it's an election year so.... Hey everybody! Look at the rich FFs! Look over there!!
Total mismanagement and now they are trying misdirection. Brilliant!!!
Man there is so much misinformation here and uninformed opinions it's unbelievable. Do we answer the same calls Steve? No. Does Medic West cut people out of cars? No. Is Medic West trained as a first responder to COBRA materials? No. Are they trained in heavy rescue, trench rescue, elevator rescue? No. Do you have any idea what a modern fire department does? If medic west is so great, how come we in the City Of Las Vegas have to make a 14 min response into NLV as we did the other day, only to be beat to the scene by Medic West by 10 secs? If that was a critical patient which thank god it was not, they would have been dead.
Before you hand Medic West the entire fire department, don't you think it would be wise to have them able to perform their core function first and just show up in a timely fashion? *Laugh*
Just because a Yugo is cheap, does not mean most people want one.
Someone else posted why a fire engine and a ambulance, if the private ambulance shows up to a call and there is only 2 of them and the patient is critical, do you think 2 can handle the call? It takes at least 4 to handle a cardiac arrest and that is the minimum and for our CLV citizens not quality care. In a hospital setting usually there are about 6 to 8 people around a patient.
One rocket scientist posted on here the firefighters made 140,000 for working 10 days a month. Really? I made a bit less than that last year and worked over 700 hundred hours overtime on top of the 240 hours a month straight time I worked. For myself that worked out to just over 300 hours a month. How much would you make if you worked 300 hours or more per month? NLV by national standards is supposed to have 266 firefighters but NLV only has 150 or so on the floor. That is the cities doing and it is that way all over the country to save money.
Now my favorite topic, volunteer departments. The largest volunteer department in the country is Pasadena Tx. A bedroom community of Houston with a population of about 150,000. No industry, no real tourism like in So. Nevada and they get about 270 calls a month, a far cry from the 30,000 calls NLV gets every year.
Many of you like to use the little magic box to voice your opinions, but a little common sense and a little research goes along way.
NLV is broke.
Mayor Buck says NLV is not broke, and nobody was laid off.
Short term fix that will ultimately fail.
PERS needs to be legislatively revamped ASAP.
Won't happen.
Rinse and repeat.
Is private ambulance trained for this?
On June 17, 2012 LVFR Technical Rescue (HR44, E44) responded to the Mandalay Bay hotel for an elevator rescue. An elevator car had broken free from its cable and was suspended by its braking system, approximately ten floors above the lobby in a blind shaft. Inside the elevator car was five occupants requiring extrication. Working with CCFD Truck 11 (IC) and with assistance of Otis Elevator Company, rescue Techs from E44 and HR44 rode atop an adjacent elevator car to the level of the damaged car. Using the emergency escape hatch along with a roping system and ladders, the occupants were rescued from the disabled car to the working car. The four adults and one child were successfully rescued and then taken to the lobby where they were examined by paramedics.
@Gary, over 60% of PERS payment to retires come from the employees contributions and investment gains.
It's great that the politicians have turned this dog-n-pony show into what it is! They mismanage the city and tax dollars; then they get all of you sheep to believe that it is the public employees fault. The unions didn't decide to build a new city hall. The unions didn't decide to build a new, unnecessary water treatment plant. But, according to all of you it's the fault of the employees. Also should be their responsibility to fix it. That's real smart.
Of course the private ambulance companies are ot trained for that. That possibly could be one of the reasons that our local FF's earn the salaries they do. You are not comparing apples to apples when impairing the two. The ambulance companies run EMS calls for profit. Fire Departments are responsible for public safety. Such as Technical rescue, Haz-Mat, auto extrication, fire suppression, public education, fire drills... Just to name a few things. In addition, they handle EMS calls. They also work 240 hours a month. How many hours a month do you all work? If you even work at all?
@vegasfireman: 700hours of OT??????????????????
Re By Buddy. Here's the deal; go to NEVADA POLICY RESEARCH INSTITUTE (www.npri.org), and read "What Pensions Cost and What They Really Cost". It may enlighten you and pull the PERS scales off your eyes.
Understaffing = OT.
700hrs OT/12 months = 2.3 OT shifts per month
@Gary,
NPRI is not an unbiased think tank as they propose. They promote free market solutions over government ones. NPRI likes to play games with math to justify why free markets can always do something better than government. But anyone that knows numbers knows it's easy to define numbers in a way that suits your conclusion. Please don't tell me you whole heartedly believe everything NPRI says?... Let me guess, your probably a Scientologist too.
For every biased article they publish I can show you one with a different conclusion. If you really want to broaden your perspective why don't you go to the source and see what www.nvpers.org has to say. As a government entity I'm sure their records are audited and published. As a matter of fact, the homepage has several FAQs and other documents for your review. There is even one that talks specifically about NPRI's calculation assumptions.
Do you know what kind of a return NVPers has to achieve to be solvent? a modest 8%. Do you know what they did in 2011? I don't remember of the top of my head but it was like 25% or more.
Yes Chuck. I think some worked over 1100 hours last year. Part of ts was due to the CLV not hiring anyone for over 2 years. In this article it was reported about 15% of the NLVFD leaving for other departments. This is true. If you track the stories in the RJ, after that NLV complained that overtime shot up. Duh. Lose 15% of your staff on a already short staffed department and keep the same level of service, someone has to work more. The difference between now and then is, NLV management kept the seats filled and units in service and now are shutting down stations and units, requiring other departments to respond to these calls. This puts our citizens at risks and causes CLV and Country tax payers to pick up the tab not to mention it pulls the units from our citizens. We are not complaining, we as firefighters will always answer the call for those in need.
Right you are Buddy, just ask the private sector people who lost 7 trillion in their 401k's when the REAL culprits (Banks, Investment houses etc.)crashed the economy.A 401k was never designed to be a retirement and a 60 min piece on the 401k basically said the average person has no idea how to properly manage one. Since so many lose so much in 401k's, I guess we can call that a true statment.
NPRI wants free market solutions over government ones. So they would prefer all the resources that go into NVPers to instead be funneled into 401Ks. That way instead of the group of experts at NVPers whose sole purpose is to ensure the fund is soluable, individual employees can be responsible to successfully navigate the stock market. Well most people aren't successful day traders, so here's were we introduce the "free market" solutions... Wall Street Investment Firms. What do you think their sole purpose will be? It will be to syphon billions off of people's retirement accounts in fees. Do you think they might even make a risky investment or too if they can get bigger xmas bonus? No thanks!
The City of North Vegas needs to be freed up to hire affordable personnel to handle fire department duties. Current wages are totally out of sync, with the recognition that unemployment is high and the city is nearly bankrupt. $140,000 sounds like a good salary for the chief, and about half of that for journey level fire fighters. Consider the wages of other people who live in the Las Vegas Valley. Most earn significantly below that.
@oldPSUguy,
Check the FF pay schedule for yourself. Your numbers aren't far off from the truth...
http://www.cityofnorthlasvegas.com/Depar...
Re Buddy. Respect your comments, and may agree with some of them. Let's look at several cities in California that are or have declared BANKRUPTCY to escape public service union contracts that they can no longer afford. How does that improve public service? I am not against ANY UNION WORKERS. Unions created the middle class as we know it; this is going away as a result of greed and fraud. PERS must be addressed, or the current compensation package must be modified: the result of doing nothing will be nobody having anything. Can you agree. Regards.
@Eric. Please explain how you know that the current salaries are completely out of sync. Do you work for the fire department? Do you know what they do? Do you know their daily responsibilities? Do you know how much training they complete monthly? This number of $147/year includes all bennifits. How much do you think your total annual salary is, not just bring home? Do you understand the fire department works 240 hours a month and private sector works 140 hours per month. Usually when you work more hours you tend to earn more money. Find a dry erase board, make a graph and maybe you'll get that.
oldUPSuguy When you figure in base salary our wages are right in line. You ask to consider the wages of others, but you don't consider the hours worked on the other side. We are hourly employees who work 240 hours straight time wages, compared to most who work 160 hours a month. Then we work overtime because of short staffing by the cities and counties, and it's all over the U.S. and saves money. In our city it saves 8 to 10 million in payroll costs per year.
Cuts are needed but not in Public Safty. Although, the city needs to reign in some of their wages. If you are going to cut (which is needed) cut park service, close Craig Park before it opens (it going to be nothing but a drug infested hell-hole. I have found out one thing in my life. Whatever makes sense you can bet politicians will do the opposite.
Just as I think CCSD employees should live near the schools they serve I think all public sector employees should live in the city, county or state that signs their checks. It gives the employee a stake in their communities. Will it ever happen? Probably not. I grew up in Chicago and you may not have liked the rule but it kept the policeman living down the street from our house.
Wow... the who's who of public employee haters are all here today!! My favorite is the one who reminisces about volunteer firefighting. Great in Lund with a population of 12, but if my house is on fire, I want professionally trained, organized and properly equipped folks showin'-up!
These contracts have come about over many, many years... where were you people? Now you're all bent out of shape, because the housing bubble burst, the tax revenue is down and you want to cut everyone to fast-food worker pay!
I'm not suggestin' for a second that the public employees don't need to get serious about offing up some concessions, but you people want to pay 'em $6/hr and then tell them where they have to live. C'mon... get real!
i seriously doubt that governance is a factor in deciding where to live, don't you? i think greater value is placed upon neighborhood, schools, amenities, conveniences, etc. in all the places where i've purchased a home, never once did i/we ask "is the local government good?"
Some casino owners live in NY....the owners of the other paper in town live in ARKANSAS...give me a break....
$140k for a firefighter?....they ought to be washing these peoples windows as they canvas...
Seriously they need to disband this fire dept (as will happen when Clark County wakes up)....I am sure Scranton PA firefighters will do the job gratefully for less than half of $140K
Thinking of NLV firefighter unions conduct, the contracts they've bullied the city into and their continuing sickouts and other tactics, what we have is a perfect example of why outsourcing to private fire and emergency services companies makes sense.
It's hard to have sympathy for folks who are taking us to the cleaners, telling us we are the problem and threatening our safety in order to extort the tax payers out of what little we have left.
I'm not impressed and I won't be intimidated.
I am in favor of a NEGATIVE 50% COLA. Housing is 50% of what it used to be.
That how we could legitimately cut them down to size. Lets see if these prima-donnas can ride the cost of living train down like they did up!
How are public employees taking the tax payers to the cleaners? Since you all know so much about the workings of a fire department and the responsibilities of a fire fighter, fire fighter/paramedic, engineer and Captain. What should these people make an hour? What do you think is fair pay for someone willing to try to save your life even if they might be injured or die?
unlv702 (Vegas Dlight)
You are thinking the way I am. It should be a requirement that the firefighters be residents of NLV. I for one will do some research and spend the time to see what action it would take for future FF to be residents of NLV. Doesn't make sense to pay these people $140,000 or whatever it might be to live in higher priced areas and spend their money supporting other communities economy's. I know we are stuck with some of the bad fire fighters now but that can change over time because if NLV continues to cut pay then they will not be able to afford to work here. Better yet, they can buy houses in NLV and the cuts will not affect their current lifestyle.
doubleu
As a military member, my life was in danger ever day I went to work. By the way I worked far more hours than FF ever worked and I made much much much (can't get enough much's) than the ff in NLV make. My father is a retired ff and made no more than 55,000 per year with 26 years. Another thing, firefighters in most areas of the country have buildings that many stories high unlike the ff here who deal mostly with 1 story homes.
Good for you on your choice of professions. Thank you for your service. However, the question was not answered. How much should a fire fighter make. And if I'm not mistaken, fire is still fire regardless of occupancy size. Occupants can be trapped in any type of building. Which will require rescue by the fire department. By the way, take a look down town and surrounding areas. There are plenty of places around with dangerous construction. But I'm sure you knew that.
@thewookie and those who bring up volunteer fire departments: Wookie, you mentioned New Milford, CT. Its population? About 27,000. The population of NLV? 270,000. Respectfully, a city of that size can't work with a volunteer fire department. Meanwhile, to all those expressing disgust with NLV firefighters, who can't believe they make $140K per year -- btw, that figure includes insurance, pension, uniforms; it's not cash in their pockets -- I have a question: When did we turn on the people who *literally* put their lives on the line for us? Do you think the brave men and women of the NYFD who perished on 9/11 were "volunteers"? Go to the NYFD website and you'll see they all have generous salary and benefits, as well they should.
Look, I am not going to defend every action of the NLVFD, or their union. The overtime scandals throughout the city are disturbing. Hero firefighters can fall victim to greed as easily as any one of us. But in a town run by casino magnates who'd rather spend $30 million to buy presidential candidates rather than give their own workers raises or pay 2-3 percent more in taxes, or mining companies which pay next to nothing in taxes to exploit OUR natural resources, we're gonna focus our anger on firefighters and cops and teachers? Really? Are we going to forget how, during the boom times, when Vegas couldn't keep up with the rapid growth, LV/NLV/Henderson lured these professionals here with these generous salary and benefit packages? Now, when the bottom falls out -- and many of these same folks are stuck with underwater, useless homes -- the cry is, "Screw 'em!"?
How about some shared sacrifice? How about Station Casinos paying more in taxes and cutting profits for the right to milk North Las Vegans of their money and pay sub-union wages to workers? What if the state of NV threatened to pursue a constitutional amendment to increase mining taxes unless the mine owners agreed to emergency fees to help bail out struggling local governments in NV? And how about the city of NLV not make idiotic decisions, like spending $100K on FIREWORKS, when casinos all over town were already offering shows? Then, yes, maybe the unions should come to the table and give up even more than they already have.
My basic point is: There's lots of blame to go around in all of this, as J-Cool noted in his column. Rather than beating up on each other and looking for scapegoats, why not explore all options, including revenue growth (read: taxes) to make sure everyone feels the pain equally.
So your dad never made more than 55, then he never worked overtime. Where did your dad work and when did he retire and at what rank?
I like how one guy wantsus to take a negative 50% cola due to housing prices, then again I'm still paying for mine, did not walk away like so many did making the problem worse. Some of you guys are real bright.
jadalian: I went to the NYC.gov website to check on their salaries.
The starting salary for a NYC firefighter is LESS THAN $40,000! With benefits, it's just $43,000!
The TOP salary for a NYC firefighter is the battalion chief, at $161,000. That's barely more than the AVERAGE firefighter salary here. And that's in New York City, where the cost of living is much higher.
In order for a New York City firefighter to have the same lifestyle that a North Las Vegas firefighter enjoys, he would have to make $255,000.
Salaries:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/commun...
Cost of living calculator:
http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliv...
@Evil slayer... Did you also find on that website that the FDNY has an EMS division? That means that the firefighters don't run EMS calls. That translates into a lot less work. Did you also read the city of New York FF/capita #'s? If you looked that data up you'de find that here in Clark County the Fire Departments do a lot more with a lot less. But you can post... I'm sure you already knew those numbers.
@evil slayer. Great research except you only got half the story. Last I looked a topped out firefighter made the same as I do within a thousand or 2 one way or the other. What you did not do is look up firefighter overtime. The other thing is that website does not include the cost of benefits. One in particluar is insurance. Their insurance is paid for life for employee and family. Ours is paid only for the employee and only while we work. That is a 750.00 per month savings over what we get.
If you're telling me NYC firefighters do less work than LV firefighters, I think that's an awfully hard sell to make. But even if true, I'd say the answer is to have more firefighters, not pay fewer people more money.
If you're telling me our firefighters are doing jobs that aren't firefighter-related, I'd say maybe they shouldn't be doing those jobs. I don't think people would object to the exact same money spent on more personnel, which would better SERVE THE PUBLIC.
Don't even get people started on overtime, Vegasfireman! We all know what a corrupt scandal that has been.
I went to a similar site; I'm aware of the pay scales. In terms of cost-of-living, I can guarantee you many NYFD workers live in the 'burbs, not the Upper East Side. What's more, NYFD is hundreds of years old, with workers who stay 20, 30 years; landing a gig there is tough. In NLV, recall, the city had to recruit firefighters in a hurry to keep up with the insta-communities that sprung up in the 90s and early aughts. So, yeah: The city of NLV made crappy deals. STILL: The figures J-Cool and NLV site include OVERTIME. If you look at the base salary and benefit packages for NLV firefighters, they're on a par with NYFD. But because the city, for whatever reason, opted to not hire and train enough firefighters, you have a situation where firefighters are making 30-40K more in overtime. Some of this is legit and due to mismanagement; some of it is probably gaming of the system by greedy, individual firefighters.
I am not here to defend every firefighter, or every position of the firefighter union. I'm a progressive (I'm sure this shocks you!), and the police and fire unions have typically been pro-GOP (before the GOP started bashing them to protect their real sugar daddies in business). So, sure, it kills me a little to defend these unions which cozied up to Republicans back in the day because THOSE officials were offering the best deals in terms of contracts & pensions. And yet, I'm sorry: I may not like every facist-wannabe cop or bulked-up, tatted-up firefighter I run across, but they are, by and large, people who work their butts off and put their lives on the lines. They're working class folks, not elites. My basic point is, those who are working 2 minimum wage jobs or have underwater homes shouldn't turn the bulk of their rage against others in the class (i.e., public employees) just because those public workers (at least those who haven't been laid off) are still doing well. THAT is the real intra-class warfare the GOP and its allies want to promote. Instead of being outraged by the overpaid CEOs and bankers and stock traders -- no, not job creators -- they want the lower and middle-class to turn on themselves, to eat their own. Sadly, unions sometimes play right into that by not being flexible (see: CC teachers). But those mistakes aside, I'm still gonna take the side of cops and teachers and firefighters over casino magnates and mining barons who have refused to step up and help NV through this crisis.
The NLV FF's are reaping the horrendous PR wrought on them by their BROTHERS and SISTERS of the CCFD.
Deny that FF posters.
Perception is still destroying your arguments.
@evilslayer Your comments about what firefighters do/don't do and overtime are right on target. (Common ground!) There's obviously mismanagement here. Obvious structural flaws. Oh, and let's not even talk about the fact that there's even a Clark County and LV government at this point! (Growing up in LV 30 years ago, even as a kid, I couldn't get why I didn't really live in Las Vegas, but this stupid thing called Clark County. Now, I get it: More jobs for politicians, more patronage!) WE NEED REFORM. Period. But rather than tackle the tough tasks, the folks running NLV seem prepared to just make firefighters scapegoats.
But hey, easy for me to say: I live in the fair city of Henderson, run by a proud Democratic mayor (and blended city council), where we've somehow managed to come to terms with our public safety workers...and still build nice new parks. (Of course, we shamefully underfund our libraries, but....)
@laughs at slayer. Apparently you don't know there are 5 departments in this valley if you include boulder city and 4 of them including mine and NLV have not been accused of any abuse. Now don't get mad at me cause you can't do quality research.
The 2 busiest stations in the country are right here in southern Nevada every year.
@Evil slayer... All you have are assumptions. You no idea what my and local firefighters do. I'd venture to say that the local ff's do work more. You clearly have no idea the work load of medical calls.
You guys can whine all you want, but we're still talking about a job that people train 3 months to do. It's a noble, necessary and admirable job, but it's not worth a $140,000 average yearly compensation package. It's just not.
A lot of people who do jobs that are every bit as important and who have a lot more intense training get paid a lot less than that.
Sorry, but that's just how I feel. And I'm a Democrat. I believe in government workers. But I don't believe in being abused by them.
Lol why is it when people like you, post garbage, get called on it, don't refute the facts then call it whining? Laugh. Just so you know the overtime is controlled by management. So now what genius? Gonna blame us for global warming too? Romper room is now in session!
I'm not blaming you for anything. If my union had negotiated the sweetheart deals yours did, I wouldn't exactly give the money back, either.
But I'd be a lot more mature about taxpayers' dissenting opinions about how public funds should be spent.
Comment removed by moderator. Inappropriate
Train 3 months huh? Yea to learn the basics then we train for the rest of our working lives. Since rookie school I've learned how to be a hazmat tech, multiple changes to CPR, hundereds of EMS updates, Weapons of mass destruction including radioactive materal, bio weapons, how to collect and preserve evidence using a FBI collection kit. With that goes how to operate and calibrate all the detection equipment that goes with it. From simple CO detectors and oxygen monitors to lasers and gas id equipment.
We've studied lock out tag out procedures for industral equipment, confined space procedure. Vehicle extraction and how to do it on the new cars when air bags came out then hybrids and electrics. Elevator rescue, building collapse, then there is the bread and butter of new ways of fighting fire, building and construction types including new materials and methods. After that then we train and drill to make us proficient. Like I said most of you have no idea what is expected of a modern fire department.
@Heretic,
You keep posting the same thing about perception and CCFD ruining NLVFD's reputation. You're right to some degree, but out of 89 posting on this article the only person that has mentioned it is you.
Maybe the person having a hard time with letting it go is you? Just a thought.
Which sweetheart deal is that? That I make about 26 bucks an hour? Don't be vague.
@jadalian: You may be correct about the volunteer fire departments in a city this big. I only offerred it for discussion. As for your other point about everyone "crying screw 'em" here's why.
I lost any chance of a pension in '95 when my job for the insurer Aetna was downsized. I was a manager with 13+ years with the company. They sold us to a third party organization like we were just another piece of equipment or a slave. No severance, no health care, no nothing; after a certain day, we all transferred to the new employer who picked out brains for 6 months and then cut everyone that was in management - out, thats all there was too it.
OK - crap happens, I understand that.
Since 1995 I have had 6 jobs mostly in sales. Never missed quota, always had customers happy. Still - everyone one of those gigs ended with a downsize, outsource, or outright sale of the company in which most of us were no longer needed. See ya!
Now, our POL friends are talking about eliminating social security and other benefits..... Soooo - as a 51 year old do you really expect me to be sympathetic to those in ANY public service union that has not had to fight to keep their jobs and benefits over and over and over again? Not to mention they continue to expect to have full health and other benefits for life?????
Get real and understand the anger and tell them to get their butts to the negotiation table. I understand the critical and meritorious service that the FD and PD Departments give us, then again, I dont need to get your pension and healthcare demands thrown in my face day in and day out either!
Buddy, I used the word..... every other poster is expressing the same thing.
Sorry you don't get it.
Wookie raises an interesting point.
The tradeoff between public and private work is supposed to be that you get better job security in public work, but the tradeoff is that you are paid less.
But here we have public servants making way more than a private company ever would pay for the same job. And that's what has people up in arms.
You can talk all you want about the stresses of your job, firefighters, and while I honor your service, the truth is that there's no way you should be making more than a soldier we send off to war.
If we can't afford to pay our military men $140,000 a year, how can you expect taxpayers to pay you that?
Tom I feel your anger. I've talked about the 50 - 60 year old who many had their plan set only to fins out their 401ks were basically worthless. The private sector is getting hosed no doubt. I don't know what the fix is but how is making someone else life like yours going to make yours better? Some systems get heath insurance for life, I don't know anyone in Nevada that does. When I retire I will have to pay 750.00 per month for health insurance for me and my wife.
The third-highest paid NLV employee in 2011 was a fire chief. (John Oceguera was the second-highest paid, but I'm not going to totally hold that against him because he collected a huge payday by retiring early, so that's an anomaly).
41 of the top 50 compensation packages for 2011 in North Las Vegas were firefighter or police department positions.
Does that really seem like a realistic standard?
And it's not just firefighters who are overpaid, by the way.
Try searching transparentnevada.com for the job position "secretary" ...
@Heretic, "every other poster"? I'm not implying CCFD's sick time usage hasn't affected the undercurrent of these discussions, but this article and these comments are generally about NLV and the NLVFFs. You keep yelling FIRE! But that fire happened a couple years ago.
@Gary, I'll agree with you that additional concessions will likely be needed by the labor groups. At this point there is very little alternative. But I've got some caveats...
The public service workers in NLV have been giving millions and millions of dollars in wage and benefit cuts every year for the last several years. Should they give more to help their city get out of this hole? Well they're going to have to.
Most recently, the FFs were trying to give more concessions, with the primary condition being "no layoffs". The city refused so they declared an impasse. Regardless of whether more concessions are given or forced, as long as the city keeps hanging pink slips over everyone's head, workers are going to be looking for alternatives. FFs in NLV are leaving as fast as someone else will hire them.
Yes, CA cities are declaring bankruptcy and yes because of that contracts and even retirement benefits for existing retirees get to be renegotiated by the courts. I'll wager that just like in NLV, municipal mismanagement was the origin of their problems, not union workers.
The sad thing in CA and in NLV is that their is little reason to hope that the same people that made the poor decisions to get here are going to have some sort of IQ surge and be flooded with mental epiphanies that are converted into workable solutions.
What's their most creative solution to date? Illegally declare an emergency so they can take concessions that the unions were already offering, but this way they can also terminate at will. Brilliant!!!!!
Instead they should be thinking about how can NLV spend what little they have left to generate new revenue sources? Build billboards everywhere and sell ad space? I don't know and I fear the management at NLV doesn't either.
If you didn't see the RJ's report today, they just suspended the NLV Fire Chief, possibly because he wouldn't sign his name to even further cuts to public safety that he thought were just too unsafe. This whole situation is beginning to spiral and I just feel sad for the employees and residents of NLV.
So do you think the 700 hours I worked overtime is out of line slayer? Working overtime is not a pay raise. And the cities were doing it even in the good times to save money. That is management and not your firefighters doing. It is mandatory we work it. You understand mandatory right?
Working employees to high overtime hours is a management effort at reducing costs. Had to do it myself in the old days when I was not allowed to hire for open positions. The reason for the high OT is not so much to keep the cost of salaries down, but to keep the OVERALL COSTS down once you factor health insurance, unemployment contribution and other expenses!
You cannot blame the firefighters or COPS for working outrageous overtime hours as long as they were approved by management, since clearly if they were approved there are not enough employees to completely cover the departmental hours.
I suppose you can assign blame to the high costs of benefits etc etc that limit the ability of management to hire more (budget wise.)
Clearly, if you are working 700 overtime hours in a given year, something is very wrong - a combination of not enough revenue and "total comp packages" that make it cost prohibitive to fully staff the force.
@vegasfireman: Its not about making your life like mine. Its about reality. When you lose your job you skinny your household budget down, sell a car, get a second job -all to make ends meet. You don't go back to the trough and ask for more, certainly, not for continued life long health benefits virtually for free! Its common sense. And I say this about ALL government unions, teachers, janitors right up through cops and fireman.
Im not taking away from what all of you do. I'm just saying your asking to continue to live in a world that does not exist anymore and you have to have some common sense.
BTW, I dont know what the true loaded salary of a cop or fireman here is. I just moved here and kinda like it here and I have no complaints so far. Then again I am in better shape financially than many here, however, regardless of what the true salary is and regardless of how dangerous your respective jobs are - my son is a 19 year old USMC Lance Corporal in Okinawa and in the near future he will be in a position to be shot at every day in Afghanistan - for the princely sum of $19,000 a year.
Take that to the bank.
T
The firefighters are out in force trying to justify their bloated paychecks.
@buddy, you keep saying NPRI has an agenda.....I suppose you and your union do not have an agenda also. The difference is your agenda soaks the taxpaying private citizens.
@doubleu, I have addressed the pay questions numerous times. Wages are capped at $70k for any and all public safety personnel. They also contribute to their health insurance, and to their own 401k retirement program. You know, like the private sector does.
Where does city manager Tim Hacker live?
@vegasfireman, yes you train, on the clock, on taxpayers dime, and to justify getting paid more money for doing nothing.
I asked buddy this once, how about you try to answer,,,if you guys are so busy, why do I see trucks parked in the gym parking lots. If you were really as busy as you say, you would not even think about going to a gym, because you would know it would not be worth it. In order to go to the gym, you guys must know you have at least an hour of uninterrupted time, and this must happen on a regular basis. If I am busy, I know I don't have a spare hour...guess what? I don't go to a gym. Yes I know, the department encourages you guys to be physically fit....you can't possibly work out on the 5 days a week you are off.
As far as the fact that certain departments have not been accused of abusing OT or sick time...you lose all credibility at that point. Anyone who knows a public safety worker, cop or ff in any department across the country...they know there is a person who works the schedule to drum up OT for the workers. If you continue to deny that, you are a bold faced liar and full of it.
@resident, I've spent way too much time already answering your questions with thoughtful responses yet you fail to even consider the information. I'm done, I can't contain myself any more...
You keep repeating yourself and I keep replying and you keep pretending like nothing transpired. Are you crazy or something?
I can't even fathom how difficult your life must be if you walk around with such rigid understanding of processes. Apparently your world is a series of black and white if this then that statements.
You honesty think you caught the cat with a mouse tail hanging out of its mouth because in your mind, the smallest hurdle would prevent you from even attempting success, and because you are so easily dissuaded, you think everyone would behave that way. Therefore... FFs CLEARY MUST NOT REALLY BE THAT BUSY. A HA!!! You've figured it out! STOP THE PRESSES!!!
How about this option.... I'm cleary more determined to succed than you. Just because a million possible unforseen "road blocks" may alter my day, I still get out of bed every day and attempt to accomplish my plan. When something happens that alters my plan, I change my plan, and then I attempt to accomplish my new plan.
FFs are interrupted every single day we work, at all hours of day and night in order to respond to the emergencies our our communities. It's not an inconvenience, it's the reason we're here. It's simply the nature of our job and there's no use in attempting to plan for when emergencies are going to occur.
Sometimes we're training, sometimes we're working out, sometimes we're studying the latest EMS or rescue techniques, sometimes we're dragging hose behind the station, sometimes we're peeing or pooping, sometimes we're cleaning, sometimes we're eating, sometimes we're maintaining our equipment and yes... sometimes when we workout it's done outside of our stations.
Sometimes we run up and down the staircases of nearby hotels or parking garages, sometimes we run up and down bleachers at our local high school, sometimes we run around the block, sometimes we run from one hydrant to the next while inspecting them and yes... sometimes we use gyms where we pay to have memberships.
The possibility of being interrupted to respond to an emergency never even factors into our planning because it's the only constant factor we can always expect. If we never started anything because we thought an emergency could occur, than we'd never start anything.
Your presumption that FFs aren't busy just because you happen to see a fire engine parked at a gym is not the only possible conclusion and it happens to also be incorrect.
Let me guess, you see a cop car parked at a bank and you immediately assume that damn cop is banking on your dime. Doesn't that cop know he is YOUR PUBLIC SERVANT!!! You never even consider the fact that the cop was actually there investigating a robbery.
always amusing to hear the ff'r grunts crying about making 140k a year for doing next to nothing most of the time. Henderson is the worst @150k to sit on there butts watching simpson reruns.
Who is PAID when they are SLEEPING ???Who is PAID when they are SHOPPING at COSTCO ??? Who is PAID when they GO to the GYM ??? Who is PAID ONLY $ 140,000 THOUSAND DOLLARS a Year with TAXPAYERS MONEY ???
Love the posts. See myself paraphrased in several. OK, we need SOME firefighters. Not sure volunteer FF's is a realistic solution--they'd cost us a few million studying it and consulting on how to set it up..... But we do need that negative COLA RETROACTIVE. 50% might be a bit much to hit at one time. Maybe 10-15% this year, another 10% next year and then NO INCREASES for about a decade. Do the same with K-12, ALL city and county employees and we'd have a chance of turning this thing around in our lifetimes. But we MUST get the deadwood out of the LEGISLATURE and REFORM PERS, reform the State spoils system in hiring and promotion, fund and support auditors and prosecution of benefit theft, employee theft of time, illegal theft of UMC services. And we should be able to ENFORCE OUR LAWS without spending increases since we'll cut costs in compensation. Back when, 20% of GDP went to government, all government, city, county, schools, state, federal. Now, government spending is about 50% of GDP. U-N-S-U-S-T-A-I-N-A-B-L-E. Further, if we could IMMEDIATELY initiate all rational reforms, we'd have to pay the piper, pay for the free lunches we've been giving away, so a fluid economy would still be years off--BUT we'd see some results within a year, more results the next year.
@buddy, you keep spitting out the same nonsense, taking extreme examples, and never addressing the real issue. I apparently can not dumb it down enough for you to comprehend. Or, more likely, you do comprehend, know that I am right, but still need to attempt your futile defenses.
If you were receiving a call every 30 minutes for example......any person with common sense would know that by the time we get to the gym, park the truck, and get inside, we will just be interrupted. Therefore, there is no point in trying. The reality is you guys often times throughout the day have hours where you do nothing. This is reality.
Try to stay with me here......I would have no problem with you guys doing anything, and simply waiting for a call...however, when you (along with your union and bought politicians) do every conceivable thing to drum up extra money at the expense of the people you work for, then it becomes an issue.
Again buddy, you are a public servant. No, that does not mean you are a slave. It means you serve the public. You work for the public. Who do you think you are negotiating against? who do you think the OT abuses are affecting?
Instead of defending everything that goes on and trying to justify it...it might go a little further if you admitted there are problems that need to be addressed. Admitted that there are problems that are on-going, and admitted that the current path is not sustainable.
It serves society much more to have 2 public safety workers making $70k, (and contributing to their own insurance and retirement) then 1 making $140 in total comp.
Your agenda is to protect your paycheck, my agenda is for the greater good of society. Which one of us is more biased?
@resident, OT usage is determined by management. For every new FF hired OT availability and the $140K total comp figure declines, because as you pointed out, the work and pay is spread across more people. Hiring new FFs vs OT is a management decision. The FFs you see at the gym or wherever have no control over that. They're just trying to do their job and be prepared for the next emergency.
Is the overall comp package a factor on hiring new FFs?... Yes. Has every FF union in the valley been giving concessions to reduce the cost of new hires (lower salaries, less or no longevity, etc)?... Yes.
Your assumptions about our schedule is wrong. Just because we might not have a call doesn't mean there aren't a dozen other things we need to do to further educate or prepare ourselves for when we do. More often than not there is rarely enough time in the shift.
$70K total comp may occur someday, but you're gonna have a very different product that you pay for. The FFs in NY make as much as us and they don't even do EMS. A fire in Las Vegas burns just as hot and kills just as easily as it does in NY. We tell them, wow I could never work in that cold weather. They tell us, wow I could never work in that desert heat.
Honestly for a total comp of $70 you'd probably take home $35-40K? For how busy we are, for what we endure, for a lifetime of service we get to retire early with backs and kness and shoulders that barely function, only to die of cancer within a few years of retirement it just wouldn't be worth it. Employees and employers share the cost of PERS and we do contribute for health insurance.
My agenda is to provide the highest level of emergency response to the citizens of my community. I hold my responsibility to my job and the public I serve with the utmost respect. I spend as much time working on my preparation off duty as I do on. You may catch me at the gym for an hour once in a while while I'm on duty, but do you see there everyday off duty for 2 hours?
This is a calling, not just a career. I realize I am paid well and I earn every cent with sweat, blood and tears. I have no guilt or shame in what I bring to the game. My only regrets are the ones we couldn't save and I worker tirelessly to give the next person in need the best possible chance of survival as humanly possible because that's what I would want for my loved ones and I know that's what my public expects when they dial 911.
Buddy, I was wrong.... in rereading the posts it is a REALITY not a PERCEPTION.... my apologies to your sense of style.
btw, if it is a calling, as you say, why not do it for free or considerably less??
@buddy, 2 of my cousins are NYFD. This is how I know how the system is "massaged". They know it as well, they basically say it's how it's done, and they take advantage of it. They also know from speaking to a few ff here in Vegas at some 9/11 events, about how the system is "massaged" here as well. So your constant defense and denial is just short of lies. I know why you are doing it, you feel the need to defend the system, to protect where your bread is buttered. Yes its hot out here, but I know my 2 cousins, and their friends on the job, do not think what you guys do is even comparable. You can try to deny it, you can kick and scream that you do the same job, and how busy you are......maybe you will even convince those that are not aware of the inner workings.
The number of scandals, and shameful stories that come out of The fire departments in Las Vegas does alot more damage than your posts can cover up.
You talk about all the things you do in the course of your work day. I remember about 2 years ago or so a couple pulled into a fire department because they needed help, they were ringing the bell...and nobody answered it. It turns out the bell was not working. Then a news team went around and tried a bunch of the bells, and several were not working.
So the department could not even make sure the bells to their own fire department were in working order. I will try and post a link to that article as well.
Should you make minimum wage, of course not. But given the cost of living in Las Vegas, there is no reason a public safety worker should be costing as much as one does on a yearly basis. There are far too many perks, and too many ways to increase wages and benefits. So the talk of going back to the dollar figure is irrelevant, because eveyone knows that the money is made up for in a dozen different ways.
@Heretic, for every hardliner like Birdiedramin, tbvegas or resident702 there are several other commentators and bystanders that are reasonable and open minded.
If my calling was to be a shoe maker should i do it for free? Get real. I work hard to serve the citizens of S.NV and fair compensation is a reasonable expectation. Compared to FFs across the US, S.NV FFs are paid about the same as any equally worked, equally trained, equally capable FD. Like I and others have pointed out, NYFD is paid about the same as us and they don't even run EMS calls. With no disrespect to your cousins, I don't know the inner workings of NYFD and they don't know the inner workings of S.NV FDs. The "massaging" that you speak of sounds very intriguing. Maybe your cousins do some sort of "massaging", but it's not the norm in S.NV.
Like most FFs in S.NV I show up to work when scheduled to, I word hard all shift and then I go home. Sometimes I get sick or hurt and when I do I use sick time. Sometimes when I'm not schedule to work I signup for OT. Sometimes when I signup I get OT, sometimes I don't. Sometimes my department asks me to work when I'm not scheduled to and don't want to, but I do agree to work because my department needs me to. So, where in this process am I "massaging" the system?
Scandals and shameful stories exist in any population, unfortunately FDs are no different. Yes, occasional "scandals" occur, but FFs in S.NV respond to over a quarter million emergencies every year. That's a lot of opportunities to show our citizens the normal and good side of the FD.
Are all pastors, teachers and coaches child molesters? Should the ones that aren't walk around in shame and give in to perception because of a few bad apples? If one that wasn't tried to tell you that they weren't a bad apple and worked hard to do what they do would you just accuse them of trying to butter their bread? Most reasonable people wouldn't hear a story about a bad coach and declare all coaches to be crooked dirty thugs. Yet you seem to think FFs should be.
Your public service workers aren't monks or millionaires, we do still need to pay our bills like everyone else. If you think you'd get the same level of service for free or considerably less you're being naive.
Oops, wrong recipient.
Resident, I remember the "ringing bell" incident. It was a phone attached to the front of a station. I don't believe several bells were broken. If I'm wrong does it matter? If you have an emergency you call 911. Going to a fire station isn't the best idea because there's a good chance the FFs could be out of the station for any number of reasons.
There are likely several fire engines and fire stations with broken components at this very moment. Is that a scandal too?
Equipment malfunctions all the time. We try to identify it as soon as possible and report it. There are a lot of players in the repair process and the FFs are only one of those pieces and actually have very little influence on when something actually gets fixed. Still a scandal?
Scranton PA put employees on minimum wage until they resolve a financial crisis. CNN just showed a firefighter who's pay was cut by 2/3 down to $7.25 an hour. So this means his regular pay is 3 times that or $21.75 an hour or about $45K a year--he has about 10 years on the job. $45K plus benefits, after 10 years.
@Roberta,
I watched the same broadcast. I'm pretty sure they said an 80% reduction. Regardless, do you think that is an apples-to-apples comparison?
Scranton has a FD about the same size as NLVFD, but they have a population of less than 80K. Do you think the FFs in NLV might be a bit busier with a population 3x that of Scranton? I'm sure Scranton FFs do a great job, but like NYFD it looks like they don't do EMS either. Is what Scranton FFs get paid fair for a population that is a third the size with no EMS responses? I don't know. I'm sure there is a lot more to the story. Again, are you comparing apples-to-apples?
Buddy: It was a 66% reduction. No way you could HONESTLY have heard that. Since you CANNOT BE HONEST, there is no point in discussing anything with you.
@Roberta,
like I said, I "think" the said 80%. And like I said, "Regardless, do you think that is an apples-to-apples comparison?"
But since you think I'm dishonest...Here's a link to the CNN video file they used in the CNN report. The reference to what percentage the pay cut is right at the 12 second mark. You listen to it and tell me if he says 66% or 80%...
http://situationroom.blogs.cnn.com/2012/...
@Roberta,
Let's just do some math in case I did hear correctly...
$7.25/hr x 5 = $36.25/hr.
FFs work a 56hr work week at straight time.
56hrs X 52 weeks = 2912 hrs.
$36.25/hr x 2912 hrs = $105,560/yr.
So, IF it was an 80% reduction, than a 10yr FF in Scranton would be making just a bit more than you proposed.
Like I said, I'm sure the Scranton FFs do a great job and pay is only part of the whole picture. However, ScrantonFD has the same number of stations as NLVFD, but NLV has a population of about 270K and Scranton has less than 80K. NLVFD has has it's stations geographically spread out to cover 79 sq. miles and Scranton has the same number of stations covering 26 sq. miles. NLVFD does fire, rescue, EMS, etc. and ScrantonFD doesn't make mention of EMS.
Apples-to-apples?
Buddy 6:25 STILL A LIAR: After admitting (sort of) that 66% does not equal 80% he pretends to do the math suggesting 56 hours a week is normal base pay in Scranton and than $105K is base pay when it's really about $45K.
Well, the public will get to speak loud and clear when it comes time to vote down the tax for the CCFD.
Vegasfirefighter, if you're telling me you worked 700 hours of overtime in one year -- roughly 15 hours of MANDATORY overtime EVERY WEEK, then I'd say we have a serious problem with the way your contract is structured -- and I'd say chances are very slim that there isn't some kind of sick-leave abuse going on with your department, as well.
These 24-hour work shifts are, frankly, ridiculous. By working a standard 8-hour shift, firefighters could cut out the need for a lot of that OVERTIME, because instead of getting paid to sleep, you'd be getting paid only to be at work.
You'd have to change your schedule quite a bit, because obviously the fire department has to be staffed 24/7, but hey, that's life. Other industries have swing and graveyard shifts, too.
Sorry Buddy, but I'm just not buying that SNV firefighters make comparable salaries as NY firefighters -- especially when you consider the cost of living difference.
And I don't think the EMT duties SNV firefighters serve make up for that chasm of pay difference, either. I just don't. Factoring in cost of living, the average firefighter here makes four times what the average NY firefighter makes.
@Evil, You were the one that posted the link to the NYFD FF salaries. That's about as b/w as it gets. If you choose not to belief the very reference you found with your own hands and read with your own eyes than I'm certainly not going to convince you of anything.
@Roberta, your message doesn't make any sense. Did you watch the CNN video? At the 12 second mark, what do they say? 66% or 80%?
Yeah, I did post those salaries, so I have to wonder what you were reading, because the salaries I posted do not jibe with your claim that SNV firefighters are paid similarly to NY firefighters. Far from it, in fact.
No one is saying firefighters shouldn't make a fair wage.
What they're saying is that firefighters right now are overpaid. If firefighters made 60, 70 grand, I don't think people would complain. But when an average firefighter is making three times what an average teacher makes, that seems to me like our spending priorities are out of whack.
I see a lot of complaining that you have to work OT because of understaffing.
But maybe you're understaffed because they can't afford to fully staff your departments because you make too much?
Maybe if you didn't get paid to sleep, you wouldn't be working overtime. For 80 hours a month, you're paid to sleep. Well, 80 times 12 is 960, which is much greater than that 700 hours of OT you worked.
Now I'm not saying this is YOUR FAULT. But it's still a ridiculous system that should be changed. The question is: Can it be? How hard would you and your union fight to keep that 960 hours of paid sleep time a year?
fire fighters can work 8 Hour Shifts ... 40 Hours a Week ... then the fire fighters will SLEEP at Home,,,and NLV would save MILLIONS of DOLLARS $$$$
NLV politicians have been nothing but union shills for a long time.
Voting these union rubber stamping robots OUT will be a good start.
@evil,
Fron the FDNY figures you posted...
FDNY FF (After 5 Yrs): Base: $76,488, Fringe: $22,616 Total: $99,104
* Fringe benefits reflect overtime, holiday pay and other differentials
That doen't include "lifelong medical coverage for you and your family", "up to 4 weeks paid vacation per year" and a "generous pension".
Now compare that to the NLVFD figures I posted...
A FF (at step 5*): Base: 69,500.28.
* steps normally take a year, except for when contract concessions postpone them.
Other than base pay the NLVFD figures don't have any other apple-to-apple figures. Base pay is fairly close so I would think the others could also be in the same ballpark. However, FFs in S.NV Don't earn nearly 4 weeks. I think the most senior employees might earn around 2 weeks. Additionally, Insurance in S.NV isn't for life and it isn't for our families.
And again, I know FDNY FFs do a great job, but they are paid to be FFs, they don't do EMS. NLV FFs are paid to do both.
Evil you said... "If firefighters made 60, 70 grand, I don't think people would complain".
What does "made" mean to you? To nearly everybody I've ever know in numerous private and public jobs, when you say how much you "made" you're talking about "Pay"...right? So, when you say "made" do you mean "paid"? as in "take-home pay an employee might see on their pay check"?
Do you think a guy at the drive through at McDonalds tells his friends he makes 45K year? And then he explains that me makes a little over minimum wage, but he's adding in meal, uniform, sort term injury insurance, medical insurance and 401K benefits?
So the Step 5 NLV FF 'makes" 69K. Is that within the 60-70 that you mentioned?
Your assumption of 80hrs/month of paid sleep is false. There probably ins't a Firehouse in the entire valley that gets 8 hrs of sleep. Besides, If a FF was home sleeping, another FF would still be being paid to be at the station. If a FF is there regardless, how would that "save millions of dollars" as usecommonsense asserts?
Regardless, don't waste your time discussing length of shifts. A FF has to be there whether the shift is 8 hrs or 24 hrs. There is NO cost savings for shorter shifts. The reason that the vast majority of FDs across the nation use 24 shifts is because they are cheaper and a more equitable distribution of duties per shift.
FFs work 56 hrs of straight time per week, that's 16hrs beyond a 40hr week at straight time, every week. Switching FFS to a 40hr work week like other industries would create a 16hr per week hole that would need to be filled by somebody. That either means hire more bodies or pay OT, both options would only cost a lot more.
You people keep trying to reinvent the wheel because you don't understand all the trials and efforts that have got us to these practices. The FD is not a new industry, we've had a lot of time to evolve and much of what we do are done because they are best practices.
I just want to add that I'm tired of replying to this article, 134 comments is too much. For all those that disagree with me please don't reply anymore or post any more questions. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day. Thanks a lot J.Patrick!!! You did this!!!
I thought they all lived in Spanish Trails....??
Yes, if you weren't paid to sleep, someone else would be paid to work.
But they'd be working, not sleeping.
It's not the same thing.
And when I say "made," of course I mean paid. But I don't mean "base pay" ... I mean base pay plus overtime, which is probably where the most outrageous spending comes from.
I'm sorry, but your comparison to NYFD is just not going to fly. Even IF I agreed that the base pay is similar (which I don't -- still not sure what you're looking at, but those starting FFs in NY were at less than 40K; what are they for SNV?), there's still the cost of living factor. A FF in NY would have to make 2.5 times what FFs here make in order for that base pay to be similar.
Also, I don't buy the argument that "Hey, we've evolved these practices; trust us." Uh, no. It's public money. It deserves public discussion. If you want to make a case for why it's BETTER that you're paid to sleep, please try to do so. But I ain't seein' it. To me, paying people to sleep just doesn't make good sense. They can sleep on their own time.
Exemplifies why public employee contracts should be voided and/or decertify the unions and move on. When their paycheck is in question, none of these public SERVANTS can locate the truth. So why did the commissioners approve the contracts? Why did they allow negotiations to proceed with such lack of integrity? Time to fix this and CUT COMPENSATION.
@Roberta,
Did you watch the CNN video you referenced again? What do they say at the 12 second mark? 66% or 80%? Why won't you answer the question?
@evil,
A starting FF at NYFD is a classification during rookie school (the first few months on the job). According to the NLVFD pay scale the starting FF pay is $46,593.55. Is that really much different?
As employment continues benefits normally evolve. Why not compare the 5yr FF in NFYD to the 5 yr FF in NLVFD? Isn't that more likely a closer apple-to-apples comparison? As far as COL goes, I'll bet FFs in NY don't live with a view of central park or even in Tribeca or Soho. They live in areas where the costs aren't 2.5 percent.
@evil,
I work a 24hr shift. 24hr shifts allow each shift to have a day, night and swing shift all in a single 24hr period. Each 24hr shift can experience each and perform all the duties necessary for each. There are no perceived pros/cons to the FFs from one shift to the next. Therefore management doesn't have to offer incentives to shifts perceived to be less desirable with things like "differential pay". A practice common when night shifts exist.
If we worked 8 or 12hr shifts, do you think there would be a different scope of duties between day and night?. All shifts would respond to emergencies, but certain things can only be done during business hours because they require interaction with local businesses, schools and other agencies (inspections, drills, education, training, etc.). Could some of this be done at night?... Maybe some training, but that's about it. Well than what do FFs do at night?.. Primarily we respond to emergencies, but that's why we also sometimes get to sleep during this part of the shift.
When it's 3:30am, what do think the "sleeping" FFs do when an emergency arises? They respond, just like the "working" FFs you propose. So to you, as a tax payer, is there any noticeable difference in service delivery?
Additionally, the logistic complexities of having 8 or 12hr shifts increase significantly. Many of those complexities would even increase cost. So again... The reason that the vast majority of FDs across the nation use 24hr shifts is because they are cheaper and a more equitable distribution of duties per shift.
So I ask you... Does paying people to work 24hr shifts cost more or less than paying people to work shorter shifts where they could sleep at home?
You said... "paying people to sleep just doesn't make good sense".
Maybe you paying people to sleep "doesn't make good sense" because you think FFs put there heads on their pillows, slip on the eye shades and the PJs and wake fully rested 8 hrs later. Well that couldn't be further from the truth. When "sleep time" comes, FFs are required to wake and respond to all emergencies within seconds.
On average this occurs several times a night. Sometimes 12+ times in a night. Sometimes we get only 1 or 2 emergencies but they last the entire night. If I attempt to sleep from 12am - 5:30am. How much sleep do you think you are actually paying me for?
As a tax payer, what's your real priority? cost and quality of service. Right?
Is your opinion of "good sense" really important in cost or quality or service?
@evil,
I agree, as taxpayers we are all entitled to question and discuss how our money is spent. I know I do. However, when it comes to FFing your perspective is myopic, because you have no expertise in FFing or the HR and management aspects of it. That's why I don't go on here and argue about plumbing or casino management.
My point about our practices being best practices that have evolved over time is this... The Fire Service has been reviewed and scrutinized internally and externally for a couple centuries in an effort to provide the best service for the citizens. It's a process we do even when people aren't writing articles about us. Just because we are paid to do our job doesn't mean we are the enemy, always looking to screw the taxpayers at every opportunity we get. Don't forget, we are taxpayers too and unlike some of the taxpayers that come and go in our local economy, as public employees most of us are here for the long haul.
As a retired FF I continue to find these "news" article and comments amusing. I also find them sad because the FF haters that are posting are so ignorant about the operation of a FD. Not only did my dept. frequently have "Open Houses" where the public is invited to attend, we also invited the public to visit our stations uninvited and we would be glad to give them a tour and answer any of their questions. In my 30 years I estimate about 100 citizens took the opportunity to visit my station. And not once did any of those visitors ask us to explain our shift rotation, manning requirements, need for OT or why we sent fire trucks on heart attack calls. We were open for business 24/7 365 days a year but few people had the time or interest to stop by and ask us questions.
I'd also like to comment on "residency requirements" for FF's and cops. That issue was settled in the courts decades ago and still there are some commenters that want to revive the discussion. Do you really expect an LAFD member assigned to a station in South Central L.A. to buy a house near his station? Would you? In my dept., our rookies lived out in the desert with 2 hour commutes. Not because they preferred living in the desert but because those were the only affordable houses. For most, it took them many years to save enough money to buy a house closer to work.
Regardless of what some of you commenters think/post, I take great pride in the fact I served for 30 years. I also take pride in the thousands of letters of gratitude from the public that my dept. receives every year. And I don't feel the least bit guilty about the amount of my pension. 30 years ago my agency advertised for FF recruits and offered what looked like a pretty good package for young men to fulfill their requirements. I applied, got the job and fulfilled their requirements. Now my agency is fulfilling their part of the deal by sending me a pension check every month. I'm proud of what I did for a living and the continuous prattling from some of you commenters will never change that fact.
Look, they can't even respect taxpayers. And I happen to be very good with numbers so I don't accept your trying to obfuscate your pay, your dedication, your knowledge of an industry.
@Roselenda, if you're replying to my post, I have no idea what you're trying to say.
@Roberta, earlier in the series of these comments you quickly accused me of being dishonest and a liar. We both watched a CNN report and had a difference in opinion of what we heard. You said it was 66% and I said it was 80%. I chose to downplay how certain I was so you could save face, but you replied even more strongly with more accusations of dishonesty. I've made hundreds of posts on this website and the vast majority are respectful. You've made what I consider to be a serious claim. I am not dishonest or a liar. I've posted a link to the video we disagreed on and asked you to review it. At first it was a polite offer, excuse me for losing my patience with you, but your failure to review the video and admit what is said (80%) leads me to believe that you may have some of the issues you charged me with. You claim a certain level of competence, but since I asked you to review the CNN file and admit what it says your posts have become cryptic. I'm sorry if I've offended you, but if you want to be respected than you should try offering some as well.
As you well know, you do not have to lie more than once in order for others not to believe you anymore. For the past 25 years, Shifty Mitt Romney, the vulture capitalist has flip-flopped his way to building a billion-dollar empire secretly-hidden and securely-protected in offshore banks located in countries famed as tax-havens. It was supposed to be so secret in fact that Shifty Mitt did not even know he was lying when he was adamantly in denial of any knowledge of his offshore bank accounts and investments transferred in the names of his wife and children, blind trusts, corporations and lawyers. I know a liar when I see one. Beyond doubt, Shifty Mitt has been a pathological liar so long that it has become second nature to him. Would you want Shifty Mitt to be your President who will make dreams and goals come true for you and your family? Wake up and take action. Remember to exercise your right to vote on Tuesday morning, November 6, 2012 by bringing your identification card and state drivers license to make your vote count by voting out of office all Republican Tea Partier, GOP ( Greedy Obstructionist Party) also known as the Party of No or Do Nothing Congress members. You will make a difference by so doing. Now you can smile and be happy.
buddy, if you think the cost of living in Tribeca or Soho is 2.5 times the cost of vegas, you have no idea what you are talking about. The cost of living in the undesirable areas in New York are 2.5 times the cost of vegas. If you live in New York, and own a home, you are paying about 5-6 times what a homeowner in vegas is paying in property taxes. A big reason, public union costs. The vegas expansion is relatively recent, and its already bankrupting certain parts.
Yes you can point to the new city hall as an unnecessary expense. This just furthers the point that the people in charge are not being good stewards of the tax payer money. Wasting it on expensive government buildings, and outrageous contracts for public workers. Both show a reckless disregard for the people who are actually paying the bills. The people should be calling for immediate change after this disaster.
Is it your fault buddy? No, it isn't. But trying to defend it is just silly.
The defense of "well, that's how it has been done, so its the best way" is 100% wrong. The fd is the only place that employs 24 hour shifts. If it was the most economical way to do it, then casinos, police depts, and 7-11's would also run 24 hour shifts.
Also, as a matter of safety, I prefer the person racing through the streets with sirens blaring be well rested. So if you rarely get to sleep during your 24 hour shift, that is a safety hazard. 12 hour shifts should be the norm, even if that means hiring more and eliminating OT. Being awake for 24 hours is not natural, and the body cannot function properly that way. The people get the government they deserve.
@unsilent, you're distorting what I said. I didn't say "well, traditionally we've done it that way, therefore it must be the best way". Sorry, I'm not going to retype my original point, but you can review my point about best practices if you choose.
The FD has substantially different operations and services compared to casinos, police and 7/11s. But if your examples were more like FDs you just might see 24hr shifts for the reasons I made earlier. Of your examples the PD is the most similar to the FD, because they respond to distress calls. However, police provide a deterrent effect on crime by being on patrol that FFs wouldn't be able to if we patrolled. Fire, medical and other rescues wouldn't be reduced by us driving around all night.
24hrs is a long operational period, but I can tell you from first hand experience that you can condition the body to operate under all sorts of "not natural" conditions and body adapts. Given all the other pros/cons, it really is the cheapest, fairest, logistically easiest for FDs.
@unsilent, Don't forget about $140 million to save a $3.60 increase on the household sewer bills. As sad as it is, at this point I really think a LV or CC takeover is in order. LV or CC could likely settle debts at a fraction, sell or lease out city hall, put the sewage plant in sleep-mode until its needed, absorb assets and reduce waste and duplication.
Why Do TAXPAYERS have to Pay the fire fighters when they are SLEEPING ?
Buddy, I don't think YOU are personally out to screw the taxpayers.
But I do think your union took full advantage of the post-9/11 pro-FF hero climate to gouge local governments. The FF union is very active politically, and until very recently, its endorsement meant a great deal to local politicians who are negotiating those deals.
I'm sorry, but you're just not going to convince me that a FF needs a $140,000 AVERAGE compensation package, especially when teachers who put in far more time, money and effort in their training, and have far greater impact on the community at large, are paid a pittance by comparison.
Something worth remembering is that North Las Vegas city council in mid-1970s actually tried to require emergency service employees to live in the city. I seem to recall that those who already lived outside city would have been grandfathered into being exempt from it, but in any case it led the police department rank and file, I believe then represented by a union, to organize, and campaign tirelessly for, the recall of most of the city council. They petitioned to recall the four members who usually voted the same way; three of those did not survive the recall election. Those who were removed included Mayor Bud Cleland.
I think this may have been the first successful recall in Nevada history, and it encouraged people to try several more in various localities. It established public employees as a very significant special interest, perhaps THE significant special interest, in Nevada local elections from then on.
First; just because someone does not have a college diploma does not mean that they can't do the job of a fireman or police officer. If someone is going to shoot, you don't say hold on let me consult my manual . Common sense is what is needed in the above jobs and overrules any education you receive from a book. Second; 140 may be much but how much is a human life worth? There is a burning building, your child is inside, they go in knowing they may not come out. Has everyone forgot about 9/11, you can't put a price tag on a human life. I am just a retired cop of 24 years so what do I know. No, I did not get paid that much when I started. My salary was 7.95 an hour for having someone shoot at me, but the guy catching a baseball for our enjoyment is getting paid somewhere in the range of 7 million a year. Now isn't that fair. And, no I was not receiving that much (140,000) when I retired either.
Regarding the comment from above paraphrased "This is the reason why they need to impose a policy requiring police officers and firefighters to be residents of NLV." So they don't live in the district where they work; neither did I. Think about it, you bust someone, he goes to jail his family is very upset so they retaliate. It was easy for them along with everyone else who knows where you live because you just happen to live in that neighborhood. So you go to work and leave your family wide open, now that makes great sense. Folks it happens. The Fireman who get paid 140 a year has to work for 24 hrs,during that shift they lie in bed and then at 3:00 am an alarm rings; heart races, adrenalin is flying (all great for the heart are they not) . When they arrive at the burning building they begin to put the fire out. Why are they doing this; for the money, yes, and to save your house and your loved ones; not theirs. So in the event they close the stations go to Home Depot and buy a long hose.
Regarding volunteers, I agree except for a few reasons. The volunteer who shows up has recently been drinking. He/she was at a BBQ and gets a call so they respond but ... I don't want him/her using an AED on my child do you? Are they tested regularly for dope? Do they receive regular training on a daily basis? This is not TV folks, this is real life. The people that are doing the jobs of fireman are HUMAN BEINGS just like you and I. How many people do you know that would go into a burning building for any amount of money? Not too many I would say. NLV will be better off with a full time fire department; cuts could be made elsewhere; such as parks/recreation; or maybe furlough days once a month for non-essential/not public safety; NLV city employees. If the city management would be creative they could think of different ways to save money which does not put the city and its residents in peril. No matter who you are, where you live or what you do, we are all just one thing; human beings and the city management needs to remember that.
Former Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman was ahead of his time. Years ago, he was proposing that North Las Vegas to be merged into Las Vegas. Look it up!
Squad51: "Second; 140 may be much but how much is a human life worth?"
Couldn't you say the same thing about Army soldiers? Teachers? Why don't we just pay everyone 140K?
I hear you on the baseball players, but that's not something taxpayers have any control over. This is.
The basketball courts are empty, the gym and athletic clubs are vacant, the NLV firemen are going door to door asking citizens to show up and help them retain their huge salaries. Why can't they use those signs the police union used, and put them on every corner. You see, if they have time to walk door to door, they could volunteer that time to the NLV fire dept.
I find it offensive, these "gentlemen" knocking on the doors of citizens, that are in the middle of 14+% unemployment, the door they just knocked on is attached to a mortgage more than twice the worth of the property, water rates climbing, power bills unbelievable, groceries sky high, and fuel for their vehicle outrageous, "can you attend a meeting to help me keep my job at $140,000 plus per year, all the benefits I am entitled to. Oh, and by the way, John Ocegura, he just retired, sucked you tax payers out of nearly half a million a year while serving in the State Legislature, living in Green Valley, would like your support for a new job". I am sure I would feel the need to support them if they are telling the truth at the door...but, the reality is, that house would be better served, burned to the ground, fire insurance collected instead of allowing the fraud to continue with the government and banks.
Firemen, stop, take a long look in the mirror, just you, review the thoughts of those you have served, they are not your neighbors, but they pay your salary, they have for years, now they are in trouble and you want to break them. The cuts you have endured, not even a fraction compared to those you serve, and while you make twice the pay than those who taught you..where does it stop. (I remember when Air Traffic Controllers thought they were the pulse.)
At those high salary levels it is probably cheaper just to close the fire department and let property burn.
The only problem with this solution is potential loss of life, but then again this is Vegas where life has little value!