Gibbons: Special session would target test scores law

Tuesday, Nov. 17, 2009 | 2:02 p.m.

Sun politics coverage

CARSON CITY – Gov. Jim Gibbons said Tuesday that if he calls a special session of the Legislature he might ask lawmakers to repeal a law preventing Nevada from competing for up to $175 million in federal funds for public schools.

“It will be one of the high priorities” on a list for lawmakers to address during a special session, he said.

Gibbons said Nevada can’t qualify to apply for the federal funds in the U.S. Department of Education’s “Race To The Top” program.

The program was included in the American Recovery Act passed by Congress this year. It contains $4.3 billion that will be awarded to 20 states on a competitive basis. Nevada could get $70 million to $175 million.

Federal regulations bar states from competing for the money if they have a law that prohibits student test scores from being used to evaluate teachers.

Nevada is one of four states that had the student test score laws on the books. But California, New York and Wisconsin have or are repealing them, leaving Nevada the only state that would not be able to compete for the money.

That law was enacted at the special session of the Legislature in 2003. Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford, D-North Las Vegas, introduced a bill to repeal that law in the 2009 session. It was passed by the Senate 21-0 on May 29 but died in the Assembly Education Committee when the Legislature adjourned June 1.

State Superintendent of Public Instruction Keith Rheault said he has talked with the governor’s staff about the law but hasn’t received a firm commitment that it would be on the agenda for a special session.

The governor calls special sessions and sets an agenda that lawmakers may consider.

The governor repeated he won’t know until the end of this month or early December if or when he will convene a special session to address the financial problems of the state.

He wants to first see the latest tax collections figures.

“There is some indication some revenues are bouncing up and down” the governor said. “I want to see an overall trend.”

Discussion: 14 comments so far…

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By Birdiedreamin

Nov. 17, 2009

2:33 p.m.

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don't get excited folks...
that little gibbons monkey will find a way to screw it up...
he always does...
and the saddest part of all is he seems to enjoy it...
has there ever been a governor with less leadership skills than that little gibbons monkey???
or lazier???
By CarsonNewshound

Nov. 17, 2009

3:21 p.m.

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'tis true, Goober lives in his own little house, full of mirrors so he can see his precious little self from every angle...
By late49er

Nov. 17, 2009

3:33 p.m.

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Well here we go.

Attorney friend in Carson City says the lov guv. will call a special session right after thanksgiving.

The gov. will blame everything on worthless state workers and the democrats. He will call for 1 more furlough day each month and a 5% salary reduction.

He will leave it up to the legsilature to raise taxes while he retreats to his tax free ranch in Elko and holes up in one of the Casino`s texting his girl friends on state time.

Take it to the bank.
By improveLV

Nov. 17, 2009

4:38 p.m.

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I don't think Gibbons has a lot of fans, but setting aside my personal opinion on his political career...I REALLY hope this gets done. Nevada schools are absolutely terrible, and we need to do whatever necessary to make improvements. Based on the information that I've seen, I blame the teacher's union for this one. As always, I'm very open to hearing different opinions.
By MichaelGreen

Nov. 17, 2009

5:55 p.m.

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Unfortunately, the governor gets to decide what a special session does, so the legislature cannot do the duty it should have completed in 2007 and impeach, convict and remove him.
By jzetzman

Nov. 17, 2009

6:59 p.m.

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Before I start my diatribe, let me first say that I am a teacher.
And I'm 100% against teacher pay being based on test scores. Let me explain:
I have no problem with accountability. I should be held accountable that I am teaching what I am supposed to be teaching, and that I am doing everything I can to help my students learn what I am teaching. To base salaries on test scores, however, would mean that my pay is based on factors outside of my control-- the involvement of the parents, the environment the student lives in, the ability of the school to provide the necessary equipment or support. Teachers do have responsibility in the accountability equation, but so does the community and the parents.

A simple first step: base the federal child tax credit on student attendance and grades. If your child doesn't attend school, and doesn't make the grade, you don't get your tax credit. At least then the accountability is shared.
By improveLV

Nov. 18, 2009

11:55 a.m.

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I wish I was online last night to discuss, jzetzman. I've heard this response before, but the problem is that I really don't read any alternative ideas to enforce teacher accountability. I actually like your idea on the child tax credit, unfortunately, it doesn't address the teacher issue, it simply points the finger at someone else. Parents and community have a major impact on a student's performance, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the poor quality of our schools.

How would you go about implementing performance based compensation? I've definitely seen the benefits of it in my work experience (more innovation, constant drive to improve, etc.) and I've seen the drawbacks to not implementing it at union based companies (complacency, no reward for working hard or being innovative, etc.).

There are external factors involved in almost every project in any industry, but that hasn't stopped performance based compensation from working.

I know it's scary, but it works. I think it's actually an exciting opportunity for teachers that clearly feel that they're performing better than others.
By jzetzman

Nov. 18, 2009

3:08 p.m.

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improveLV, the difference between the education and business worlds is that you have control over the raw materials in a business. If the materials are sub-par, you won't buy them; ultimately, this will improve your product. Businesses control all the parts of their production-- what goes in, and what comes out.

Teachers can't turn away students, we have to take them all. We don't get to choose who is in our classes, therefore we can only control what comes out. That's like asking Wolfgang Puck to continue making good food without letting him choose the ingredients.

As for pointing the finger, I see a student for 54 minutes out of a day, 5 days a week. A student is in school for 6 hours a day. Who is responsible for the other 18 hours? Too much blame is put on the shoulders of teachers. I can do a lot of good in an hour, but I cannot control what happens outside of that hour.

Any good teacher will tell you that testing is only one of many assessments, and that some students are better than others at taking them. The current proficiency tests (which I've had the joy of proctoring the past few days) only prove that you can take a test. I know many students who understand the material, can verbally explain it correctly, but cannot take tests well. This over-reliance on tests hurts students, and proves nothing... so why should teachers have their compensation based on tests that many educators feel are unfair?
By improveLV

Nov. 18, 2009

4:30 p.m.

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Very good points, and I've heard them before. but once again, you're posts are picking apart the approaches to take with performance based compensation. what I'd like to hear are alternative ideas. Are you simply saying that it's impossible to judge a teacher based on any performance based metric? I understand that kids are only in school for 6 hours a day and they're on their own for the other 10 hours of the day that they're awake (I'd really like to see more after school/sports programs, instead of fewer by the way), but that's still a pretty significant %. Enough where the school has SOME influence on their progress. Can we measure each kid's improvements from year to year, instead of just the raw scores? That way, we're focused on each individual kid. Still external factors at play, but it seems more reasonable.

I've also heard the criticisms of the tests before...and to me, it sounds like they are a work in progress. They definitely need to be modified. As for "teaching for the test"...(not a quote from you, but one that I've heard before) I don't think that would be a problem if the tests were properly structured. Again, you're identifying problems and not proposing any new solutions.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just frustrated about having the same conversations. I rarely hear alternative ideas, I simply hear "no" and "this is a bad idea because...". There has to be a way. I think teachers need to be very involved in that process so that it's fair to everyone, but we simply can NOT maintain the status quo, and I have to believe you agree with me on that.

I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I'm a parent that doesn't want to have to spend $12K/year on school, only for my child to come home and play with other kids enrolled in our crappy public system.

I'm going to catch some heat from you for this comment, but...I don't think parents can rely on the teacher's union to represent the best interest of the children. Like any union...they exist to get the most for their members for the least amount of work. Not laziness, just human nature. I have all the respect in the world for profession, but that doesn't mean they aren't human or that they don't make mistakes. Their mistakes just happen to cost more than most other professions.
By jzetzman

Nov. 18, 2009

4:55 p.m.

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Actually, I do have some ideas on how to improve student achievement. The funny thing about education is that 1) Everybody believes they understand how to fix it, and 2) Nobody actually listens to educators. I'm not saying that's you, but it appears to be a common thread. Anyways-- here are some ideas on how to improve education. Let me know what you think.
1) Dump the proficiency tests. Replace them with course-specific final exams. If you don't pass the test, you don't get credit for the course until you do. The test should include more than simple multiple choice-- essays, short answers, etc. These tests should be based on established curriculum standards. I would accept performance pay on tests like that far better than our current system.
2) Eliminate pointless graduation requirements. Does every child really need 4 years of math? Of course not. We need to offer classes that are relevant-- courses such as financial literacy should be required... students will actually use that far more often than the quadratic equation. Which leads me to..
3) Track students based on their previous school performance, teacher observations, and to an extent, parent wishes. Students that are capable should be offered a rigorous, college-prep curriculum, while those that aren't should be offered a curriculum that suits their needs (with more emphasis on tech education).
4) Change the idea of neighborhood schooling for high school. High schools should offer the basic curriculum, but should also be able to compete for students. There is some of this going on now with magnet programs, but every school should have a magnet program.
5) Give teachers more control over the direction of the school. Administrators are far too often number crunchers and paper pushers. They cease to be educators.
By jzetzman

Nov. 18, 2009

4:55 p.m.

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6) Pay teachers enough so that the profession can attract the best and brightest. I have a masters degree and I only make around $45K. In the private sector I could earn more. I choose to work in education because I love my job, but not all of our best and brightest are like that.
7) Increase parental responsibility. If a student is not coming to class, not doing their homework, etc. then that is a parental issue. Like I said before, change the child tax credit to make it dependent on your student's performance in school. Actually arrest parents for truancy.
8) Increase funding to early education programs. These programs should be free and tax-supported. It is a proven fact that children who attend early education programs do far better in school.
9) Change the purpose behind special education. We spend way too much money on a specific group of students, and society gets very little in exchange. Special education should be tailored to the individual student to teach them what they need to be successful in life. Chances are, most special ed students aren't going to be rocket scientists. (That is, by the way, a very "politically incorrect" view)
10) Provide free opportunities for teachers to participate in real professional development-- taking college courses, watching other teachers teach classes, etc. Teachers are some of the world's best thieves-- a good teacher steals ideas from other teachers.

Just a few ideas. I can see the frustration with the union. It is, however, rather uncomplicated to fire a teacher (contrary to what many people believe). Doing so requires that a principal document a pattern of behavior, which many simply won't be bothered to do. There are ways to fire a teacher on the spot, and firing a teacher within a week is extremely easy.
By improveLV

Nov. 18, 2009

5:55 p.m.

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My friend, that might be the best post I've ever seen on these boards. I hope you have some influence over these negotiations, because I think that's the approach you should take. It might just be my experience, but I've NEVER read/heard a well-written/spoken list of ideas like that.

#1 - I think you have something here. It sounds like you're close to meeting in the middle on this issue. Hopefully everyone would be willing to compromise and get this figured out. As long as a third party is grading the tests, it seems like it makes sense.

#2 - It makes sense to me, but I would want to make sure these kids are pushed and don't opt to take the easy way out. Maybe I'm not able to wrap my brain around how it would work, but it seems like all high school graduates should have some basic set of skills, but there should be some elective classes included like the one you mentioned.

#3 - I have no problem with this. A little concerned about the parent's wishes part, especially since some of the parents are not qualified to make the decision. But, in combination with the rest, it makes sense.

#4 - TOTALLY AGREE

#5 - I'll trust you to make this call. It does seem like our administrative expenses are awfully high.

#6 - Definitely agree. We need the best and the brightest. If money is what it takes, then so be it. We do have to consider the fact that some are working 9 months out of 12 (I've heard the # hours per day response, but a lot of people work the same number of hours at their job). This is one reason why I think we absolutely can NOT turn down any federal funding. Last year, I think the teachers got a bit of crap because they continued to get their raises in the middle of a terrible recession, and I'm sure there were other issues, but it wasn't good for PR.
By improveLV

Nov. 18, 2009

5:57 p.m.

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#7 - I like the child tax credit idea. I wonder if the people that need the push most wouldn't really pay attention to this kind of thing, but I still like it.

#8 - DEFINITELY. More funding is absolutely necessary. Believe me, if I had my choice, we wouldn't spend money on anything outside of Education & police until our situation improved.

#9 - You know what, it's not politically correct, but I agree and I've discussed in the past. Very tough issue to tackle without sounding ruthless. We have more money going towards special programs, which I agree is nice, but we need to spend money where it affects the largest number of students before getting into specific programs.

#10 - Absolutely, and I can't believe this type of program isn't already offered.

My frustration with the union isn't because of the stories of pedophiles not being fired in NY, it's more of a philosophical issue I have with unions in general. I also think parents rely on the unions to represent their interest, when in reality, everyone has their agenda.

I recently joined the board of a foundation that simply feeds funds to different charities. My personal focus is going to be on education in NV/Clark County. I'd love to get your feedback on the most effective use of our funds. If you don't mind, please shoot me an email at lveducate@gmail.com.

Thanks.