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twitterLetter to the editor:
Town-hall shouters showing their ignorance
Thursday, Aug. 20, 2009 | 2:04 a.m.
The last NBC News poll I saw shows that almost half of the American people believe health care reform legislation would permit the government to decide when to end medical care for the elderly (“pull the plug on Grandma”), pay for abortions, and pay for illegal immigrants’ health care. All of these fallacies are being spread by the health insurance industry lobbyists and Republican Party leaders and operatives to defeat the effort and “break” President Barack Obama.
As I watch the town-hall meetings, I see many people carrying signs depicting Obama as Hitler and labeling him as a Nazi and his programs as “socialism.” Don’t these fools realize that the Nazis and the socialists were mortal enemies?
Some people are wearing sidearms outside the meetings to make some kind of obscure statement. What is worse is the incessant shouting down and booing of the speakers and folks trying to ask and answer legitimate questions about the proposed programs.
The over-the-top screamers and shouters, according to the Fox News Channel, are “everyday Americans” who are supposed to represent the rest of us. In my opinion, most of the dissenters are either miserably uninformed/misinformed or are being led down the garden path by special interests whose sole purpose is to keep the money flowing. Maybe they’re graduates of the Glenn Beck School of Deep Thinking.
A perfect example is the photo with the lead letter in Wednesday’s Las Vegas Sun, headlined “Health care reform should be a no-brainer,” in which a man is yelling at Sen. Arlen Specter during a town-hall meeting on health care reform. This guy looks like a reasonable person? I think not.
Discussion: 77 comments so far…
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A good example of fools full of ignorance is a poll that show 35% of Democrats believe that Bush knew about 9/11 and did nothing to stop it.
On the scale of foolish ignorance that is pretty high.
Don=Democratic hyprocrite. Doesn't like being on the side that gets attacked. Liked attacking Bush/Cheney will ridiculous accusations. Keep crying Don, I'm enjoying it.
How dare these protesters question the decisions of "our leader". Once the President makes a decision it is the duty of all to walk in lock step with the decision.
The debate is over. We must push through the health bill as told. Just like the simulus, the budget, the auto bailout and the rest.
All hail "the leader" and question at your peril.
"these fallacies are being spread by the health insurance industry lobbyists and Republican Party leaders and operatives to defeat the effort and 'break' President Barack Obama"...so either the uproar is an orchestrated conspiracy or a collection of legitimate concerns over a huge health care initiative that has not even been completely read by our legislators nor presented in its entirety to the American public who will be required to pay for it. Speaking for myself Mr. Shirley, I am one who DOES read the fine print on contracts and I DO want to know the exact language in the health care plan. Have you had the opportunity to read it yet? Can you say that it categorically denies coverage for all of the situations you site in your letter?
Nazi=National socialist party. It is amazing the number of letters I have read in various newspapers from older people who lived in Europe in the 1930s. They draw frightning parallels between the rise of Adolf Hitler and the current presidency of Obama and the similarities in both men's demeanor.
Just be calm sheeple...Obama will take care of you...be calm...don't question...don't object...don't make eye contact...take you little Obama pill and be calm...
Don...you're a moron (oops, was taht out loud?)
(oops, was taht out loud?)
"Don't these fools realize that the Nazis and the socialists were mortal enemies?"
Hey Don -- you should've looked up what "Nazi" stands for before making a fool of yourself here. "Nationalist Socialist Party."
"pay for illegal immigrants' health care"
why wouldnt it? we cant even stop illegals from getting jobs or from coming in to the country, what makes you think they will stop them from getting health care?
Wayne,
Got me.
Questioning the govt is wrong and the people how does are ill-informed and just stupid. I question this govt and I am not stupid or ill-informed this govt is out of control and what worse is people in the media is following a man who has change his position daily on the most important bill in the history of this country.
When Libs protest they are patriots.
Anybody else is a misinformed idiot.
It is this line of thinking that elected BHO, you know the empty suit who changes his mind more than Ted Kennedy changed his "bridge fiasco" story.
Some of the comments posted appeares to adhere to the ideology that facts only confuse the writers.
Is it any wonder the recent attacks by the right wing have had to resort to lying, misinforming, fear-mongering and generally being disingenuous. Could their strategy spring from a cynical effort to gain partisan political advantage? It is apparent they fear that the success of real and essential health care reform can provide this administration with the historical result seen after the progressive initiaitives put in place by FDR?
By poisoning the political well, they've become political terrorists, willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems.
They have to rely on fear in order to gain favor with their base. Thinking and informed citizens recognize there is no credible way to look at what has been proposed by the president or any congressional committee and conclude that these will result in a government takeover of the health-care system. That is a flat-out lie whose only purpose is to scare the public and stop political conversation.
Under any plan likely to emerge from Congress, the vast majority of Americans who are not old or poor will continue to buy health insurance from private companies, continue to get their health care from doctors in private practice and continue to be treated at privately owned hospitals.
If you bother to read the proposals you would understand the centerpiece of all the plans is a new health insurance exchange set up by the government where individuals, small businesses and eventually larger businesses will be able to purchase insurance from private insurers at lower rates than are now generally available under rules that require insurers to offer coverage to anyone regardless of health condition. Low-income workers buying insurance through the exchange -- along with their employers -- would be eligible for government subsidies. While the government will take a more active role in regulating the insurance market and increase its spending for health care, that hardly amounts to the kind of government-run system.
By now, you've probably also heard that health reform will cost taxpayers at least a trillion dollars. Another lie.
First of all, that's not a trillion every year, as the right wing would have you believe -- it's a trillion over 10 years, translating to about $140 billion, when things are up and running.
Compare that with what the Bush administration demanded in spending to bail out Wall Street under the TARP legislation. Did these right wingers cry about that expenditure or the monthly expenditure in Iraq?
Other parts of the reform plan would result in offsetting savings for Medicare: reductions in unnecessary subsidies to private insurers, in annual increases in payments rates for doctors and in payments to hospitals for providing free care to the uninsured. The net increase in government spending for health care would likely be about $100 billion a year, a one-time increase equal to less than 1 percent of a national income that grows at an average rate of 2.5 percent every year.
The right wing lies about the economics of health reform are also heavily laced with hypocrisy.
When Democrats, for example, propose to fund research to give doctors, patients and health plans better information on what works and what doesn't, the opponents sense a sinister plot to have the government decide what treatments you will get. The proposal permitting Medicare to pay for counseling on end-of-life care is transformed into a secret plan for mass euthanasia of the elderly. What planet are they on?
Government negotiation on drug prices? According to these know nothings, it means the end of medical innovation as we know it. The proposal to reduce Medicare payments to overpriced specialists and inefficient hospitals? They rant that it would be the first step on the slippery slope toward rationing. They become the allies of the PHARMA and insurance industry and their overpaid lobbyists who are working against the public interest.
Real health reform is a test of whether this country can function once again as a civil society -- whether we can trust ourselves to embrace the big, important changes that require everyone to give up something in order to make everyone better off. Right wingers and the Republican leaders are eager to see us fail that test. We need to show them that no matter how many lies they tell or how many scare tactics they concoct, Americans are smarter than they think and will come together and get this done.
The end result may very well be if health reform is to be anyone's Waterloo, it may very well be the shrinking right wing and the Republican party.
freeand informed-judging by your comments you seem gullable enough to believe Obama's simple minded lies that health care will cost whatever he stupidly pulls out of thin air. What has the government ever done than didn't cost 4 times what they said it would. What has the government done that has not been a complete and total failure. Remember years ago when that complete fool Lyndon Johnson said we were going to spend-er waste all this money and end poverty. Seven trillion dollars later we have more poverty than ever. Even Jesus said that there will always be poverty and he is right. As a good liberterian I can only hope and pray the the government will go broke and we don't have to deal with the idiots anymore. Of course there are a lot of those who lack the intelligence to think, that might realize they actually have to take care of themselves for a change.
KillerB said....
"Hey Don -- you should've looked up what "Nazi" stands for before making a fool of yourself here. "Nationalist Socialist Party."
KillerB, I'm very disappointed in you. I guess you were doing what you are very good at when your history teacher went over the rise to power of Adolf Hitler and the National Socialists in Germany......In other words, you must have been SLEEPING!
The Nazi's weren't socialists....Actually, they were fascists.....they hated socialists and communists.
The term National Socialists had NOTHING to do with socialism.
Socialists, for the most part, believe in government ownership of private property and believe the economy should be run and controlled by the state...
Of course, there's different degrees of socialism and one very extreme form of socialism is what is known as communism. That's what exist today in Cuba, China, and North Korea.
Sweden, on the other hand, is a country very steep in socialistic programs but its government does not control private property or the means of production.......one might call their system "democratic-socialism."
We're a democratic-republic but we have several socialistic programs as psrt of our system.....Medicare, Social Security, TVA, "free" public education are all socialistic programs that we have had in place for a long, long time.
Under Hitler, the government never took over the ownership of private property, or ownership of the means of production. One of the largest industries in Germany before, during, and after the war was the steel industry, owned and operated by the Krupp family.
The Krupp's backed Hitler's rise to power and made a great deal of money during the war arming Germany but they never gave up ownership of their factories/iron works.
There are numerous other examples of private business/industries in Germany during the war that did exactly the same thing as the Krupp's did...They worked closely with the Nazi's but maintained ownership of their property.
Don't confuse socialism/or communism with fascism. Germany, under Hitler, was fascists...they hated communists. The same thing can be said about Italy.
Why do you think Germany went to war against the Soviet Union in World War II.....very different ideologies...
Every day the LV Sun prints the same Democratic operative letter with a new writer's name.
When will this stop
Obama plan goes down in the polls everytime he trys to explain it.
We do not trust Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Obama to deliver a real cost effective bill that deliver high quality care.
Future said.....
"We do not trust Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Obama to deliver a real cost effective bill that deliver high quality care."
I'm curious....who is "WE?" Got a mouse or two in your pocket?
I have ask numerous Republican on this board the question: "Where can I find the GOP's plan for health care reform?"
So far, all I get is the sound of crickets....maybe you can help me? Got a web site or two that I can go to?
I hear the right-wingers talk against the Obana plan for health care reform, but I have as yet to see their plan.....why is that?
On bait and switch and reforms that don't work,
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_...
The government doesn't have to have panels that decide who lives and who dies, new regulations might do that anyway... http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_...
Why do all these right-wingnuts write and complain about a letter published in the Sun? Their paper is the R-J. The Repubs are not going to vote for any health care. Their representatives have been bought by the insurance companies and the pharmas. They are not in any way concerned about the American public.
"I have ask numerous Republican on this board the question: "Where can I find the GOP's plan for health care reform?""
Several Conservative plans have put forth
Here is what they want - I do not know how you missed it.
Reid is considering two bills one of which will cover the Conservative ideas.
Aside from excessive cost paid by robbing $500 billion from Medicare and the unwanted public plan, two other key issues Democrat Blue Dogs have is coverage of Illegal Aliens and abortion.
Why is it that we cannot start with a simple healthcare bill that handles the bulk of the concerns most liberal and conservative have - without a public option plan/single-payer plan -- it would pass
- Give everyone equal access to tax deductible (same as a business provided deduction) health insurance by, multi-state Health Insurance Exchanges and State and Regional Cooperatives open to individuals and small employers, and paid access to Medicare for early retirement.
- Subsidize transient uncovered people who are laid off (COBRA or Medicare) and those that earn up to 2 times the poverty level (4 times is too high a threshold).
- Require coverage of pre-existing conditions on a new policy, prevent dropping coverage.
- Individual mandate - as a minimum everyone has a "minimal essential benefits - catastrophic" healthcare policy.
- Eliminated cost shifting where one plans pricing power gets a lower rate than other less powerful insurers. That is the cost of a red pill is the same for all.
- Impose tort reform to reduce defensive medicine.
- Government investment in innovation and technology.
- Automate Healthcare records to eliminate duplicate tests by multiple doctors.
- Reduce fraud, corruption and eliminate billing scams.
El Lobo,
The Republicans currently want to maintain the status quo. They think the current antiquated and corrupt system is good. To them, the almost 50 million uninsured are the "parasites" of society because maybe a small percentage of them would take advantage of the public option (though they choose to ignore those who already make there insurance rates go up by swindling the insurance companies). These people would see millions of people receive inadequate healthcare just so they can rest knowing that a few leaches aren't getting there unfair share, even though those very same leaches are thriving under the current system.
Other countries (well, many countries) have the public option and have vastly superior healthcare systems. The idea that America isn't the best at everything is incomprehensible for a conservative to picture.
Future said.....
"Several Conservative plans have put forth
Here is what they want - I do not know how you missed it."
Allow me to get this correct. What you listed is the Republican Party's plan for health care.....right?
They have introduced such legislation in Congress.....right?
Who were the Senators/Representatives that introduced this legislation? Is it listed on their web site or is there another web site where I can find the complete plan?
Thanks in advance....
Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, Medicaid is broke, the Postal Service is bankrupt. Let's turn the whole health-care system over to the government. Great idea, morons.
larry5 said....
"Social Security is broke, Medicare is broke, Medicaid is broke, the Postal Service is bankrupt."
Hmmmm........I did realize that. Got a link or two that says that very thing?
I would love to read all about that very thing.
Thanks in advance....
I didn't write this, it's all over the internet, so feel free to use it freely:
You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well srew that. That about right? You know it is.
You people have all lost your fu$%^&ng minds. You are selfish, greedy, obnoxious, narcissistic, and frankly... stupid. Your pathetic little misspelled protest signs are embarrassing. Maybe you ought to find the smart person in your midst and let them make up all the signs, cause man, you look like a bunch of idiots. Also you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.
El Lobo: "I have ask(sic) numerous Republican on this board the question: "Where can I find the GOP's plan for health care reform?"
Since you have asked me ad nauseum this is my answer and I only speak for myself as an INDEPENDENT.
I do not think that any committee reponsible would allow a Republican version at this point regardless of what they are saying. I say this because I believe that the Democrat's really thought this was a no brainer and that there would be little to no opposition. Any input from Republican's has been handily shot down. My guess, and yes, it is my guess...there is a Republican version of some sort floating around. I emailed Sen. Ensign's office this morning asking him the very same question that you posted me yesterday. I will call again tomorrow to follow up.
I know you will find this hard to believe, but I think that the Pelosi/Reid Dem's want all the credit for this passing even as the likelihood diminishes in its present form. As much as BHO touted bipartianship, I don't think those two are on board with that thought process. The big question is will they force America to accept this via reconciliation? Or, will they scrap the current plan and start anew...this time actually listening to the middle/right? It's not boding well for your guy as of today with this bill. So my guess is that he will either try to repackage it ala co-op healthcare or something altogether new.
I think all this back and forth is polarizing the entire nation.
I have said it before...unless you are in this industry your view is likely very shortsighted.
And while I am a Christian, this "looking out for my brother" is taking it to a whole new, intolerable level.
You may not like my answer, but I did answer your question.
And, StanG...that was really tasteless and suprising since you are usually much more eloquent in your diatribes against conservatives.
Oh and one more thing El Lobo...it's obvious that the Democrat's aren't listening to the American public these days so what makes "you" think they are willing to listen to the Republicans?
That's my question right back atcha! I'll check back in the morning for your answer...
Irony: the fans of the great community organizer do not appear to favor community organizing that opposes their socialistic agenda.
Ensign held a town hall meeting via phone a few weeks ago. I listened to an hour of it. He said he was all for a new health plan which included portability, low cost, eliminated the precondition clause, and several other things. But he said the Obama plan was the wrong way and that he was working on his own plan.
So when you do hear back from him, see if you can find out when he expects to make it public.
indythinker.....
You are quite a "dancer"....you did it again! You "danced" around the question that I presented to you and other right-wingers on this board.
As you know, my question was:
"Where can I find the GOP's plan for health care reform?"
You and I both know the answer to that question, don't we? The answer is simply this.....there is NO Republican health care plan. There never has been. They are not interested in health care reform in any form, shape, or fashion. I know that and you know that....Right?
I got a kick out of your statement that you're actually an independent......that's funny!
You have partaken of so much right-wing Kool-aid that it's running out your nose and ears and sloshing out of your shoes as you walk.....
Don't feel too badly in terms of not being able to produce the Republican plan for health care reform, however......you're not the Lone Ranger in terms of not being able to produce the plan. NONE of your right-wing cohorts have been able to produce it either....
Your statement saying:
"I think all this back and forth is polarizing the entire nation" is interesting.
I agree with you on that. That's why I believe it's time for the "rubber to reach the road." The Democrats have the votes to pass health care reform. They should do that as soon as possible.
The GOP isn't interested in debate or compromise. Why continue to "court" them?
Before the Democrats can pass a health care reform bill, they must bring the "blue dog" Democrats and the "liberal" Democrats together in terms of an agreement....That can be done and will be done.
There is no such thing currently as a Democratic or Republican Health Care Reform plan. There is a hodgepodege of plans.
You would think the Democrats would have one plan but Obama has punted on that one and often. That is why libs look like they heads are cut off. They are babeling about this and that.
Here is one describing one GOP Health Care plan: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12427755...
El Lobo....
"The Democrats have the votes to pass health care reform. They should do that as soon as possible."
If what the Dem's want to pass is such a good deal and you obviously don't need the Republican's...then why oh why...isn't is a done deal? Might it be that even those with common sense within your own party are aware that all is not as it seems?
Not sure if I'm the one dancing or you're the one drinking koolaid. You're a bigger fool than I thought if you think that a Republican could get anything out of committee right now. And, you're holding it against them instead at least being savvy enough to understand it as fact and deal with it fairly. But whenever have you Dem's played fair?
In case you don't get that last comment... your beloved Sen. Kennedy wants to handpick his predecessor YET he is the one who established a waiting period for this exact situation. Which he established to prevent a conservative Gov. from appointing a conservative to the Senate. Now that the shoe is on the other foot...he needs to rewrite the playbook. Wish I could be surprised.
The dems don't have the support they need right now. Even if they thought they had the votes to pass it, many of them are too scared sh**less of losing their seats to proceed.
Try convincing El Lobo of that...
El Lobo only believes what the Obamacrats tell him. It's that hopium again!
henderson,
September 8th congress reconvenes. They are on vacation right now (sipping margaritas, hiking the Appalachian trail etc etc).
Obama plans for a possible September 15th vote, so until then you are just spouting hot air about him not holding the vote right now.
Is that why we have an excessive heat warning today? Huh. That is a lot of hot air.
El Lobo: It's refreshing to read someone on this page who respects research and historical fact. Thanks and keep up the great work.
Your history teacher would be proud of you.
To henderson and indythinker:
Health care reform would have already been passed if Obama had decided to do just that. He, for various reasons, has been encouraging debate and participation by both sides of the aisle. If you remember, he ran on a platform calling for less polarization and more transparency....
It appears, however, that Obama is slowly running out of patience with those belonging to the "Party of NO." He is very aware that the GOP is trying to pick up political support and votes for next year's mid-term election by dragging their feet on health care reform.
The same strategy was used (unfortunately it was successful) by the Republicans back in 1993-94 when they blocked Clinton's plan for health care reform.
Of course, if health care reform had been passed in 1993-94, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're currently in....
Some right-wing political pundits believe that if the GOP can defeat Obama's health care plan, then this will set the stage for "bringing down" Obama's entire presidency....
That's the old Limbaugh/Hannity approach of "I want Obama to fail, even if that means the whole country will suffer as a result of that happening"...
The liberal wing of the Democrat Party is more than ready to pass a health care bill. The "blue dog" Democrats are for health care reform but they're reluctant to go with everything that's in the current proposal.
The "blue dogs" are from conservative districts and are afraid that if they fully back what the liberals want, it will hurt them in next year's mid-term election. If not next year, then in 2012.
Not "rocket science" stuff.....
El Lobo,
The democrats are having a meltdown right now. You're right, it's not rocket science.
henderson said....
"The democrats are having a meltdown right now. You're right, it's not rocket science."
The proof will be in the pudding! Stay tuned......
El Lobo -- very aware of what socialism is. Ever read Bastiat? As for the Nazis, just being prima facie, showing the writer's ignorance based entirely on the name. That's all.
Good to see you're staying sharp but a bit too erudite.
Choice between hope and manipulated fear.
To be sure, time does not fix the endless greed, energy depletion. Considering the current fuel price is hovering around $60 to $70 per barrel in this economy, supposedly it might be equivalent to the peak price last year while the similar runaway premiums keep on rising, heading for financial ruin. And it is firmly believed if people fail to build a bridge for the next generations, the current generation, too, can not avoid falling off the cliff, as the world-wide overpopulation & immense consumption in conventional energy and the other resources no longer allows waste.
As usual, when the positive effects including job creation and savings generated by investments are left out of the equation, fear and scare are left alone. Today choice between hope and manipulated fear lies with people's will.
Thank You !
Manipulated fear?
You're right, nobody's REALLY afraid of a massive government takeover of health care and insurance.
El Lobo: You got one thing right...it's not rocket science...it's Poly Sci. 101.
"The liberal wing of the Democrat Party is more than ready to pass a health care bill. The "blue dog" Democrats are for health care reform but they're reluctant to go with everything that's in the current proposal.
The "blue dogs" are from conservative districts and are afraid that if they fully back what the liberals want, it will hurt them in next year's mid-term election. If not next year, then in 2012."
So let me get this right...if Democrat's don't go along with the liberal agenda they are afraid for their jobs...BUT if a Republican doesn't back the liberal agenda he is an obstructionist??? Do you have any idea how ill-informed you sound? How do you make an allowance for one faction and not the other? There are just as many fiscally conservative Dem's as there are moderate Republican's.
BTW...I really like the part about BHO getting tired of bipartisan politics. That lasted what?Just over 100 days?
indythinker.....
You can spin it anyway you please.....that's what you normally do, but the Democrats have the votes needed for health care reform and they're going to do in some time in September.....
I personally believe that Obama has spent way too much time trying to get the Republicans to come aboard the health care reform bus....
It's time to leave them at the bus stop. Its time to VOTE and pass into law health care reform and then move on to other issues that need attention....
El Lobo,
The dems are not even agreeing on what to pass! They need to figure out what they're all willing to sign.
The Dems don't want a vote without one Republican. They don't want this sham of a scam with their name on it. They want at least one Republican so they can say it is bipartisan when this thing implodes.
Cowards every one of them. We need to elect an entirely new Congress. Get rid of these worthless, money grubbing coots. Yes Harry, you are the problem.
KillerB........KillerB.....
What took you so long to answer my post? The sound of crickets was every where after I posted what I did about your lack of knowledge concerning the Nazi's and socialism.
You said:
(I'm) very aware of what socialism is."
Should could have fooled me....Probably true with several others on this board...
So I'm a "bit too erudite." Hmmmmm....are you saying that I'm crude, vulgar and gross simply because I pointed out that you were completely wrong in trying to connect socialism with fascism?
Don't become the product of a situation where a "little bit of knowledge becomes a very dangerous thing"...... OK?
henderson said....
"The dems are not even agreeing on what to pass! They need to figure out what they're all willing to sign."
You are correct but that will be worked out prior to the vote that's going to take place some time in early September...
The liberals will have to give on a few things and the "blue-dogs" will be forced to give on a few things but it will happen...that's what is known as compromise.....a very alien concept seldom used by the GOP!
gatalife....Yes, you are correct when you said that the Democrats don't want a situation where they have no Republican "yes" votes, but that attitude may fall by the way-side. It's time for the "rubber to reach the road." It time for health care reform...
El Zorrillo...or should it be La Mofeta: Could it be that you have a Ph.D. in Socialism?
LMAO... You gotta know that El Lobo is a one-way train wreck. Socialism or bust!
indythinker said...
"You gotta know that El Lobo is a one-way train wreck. Socialism or bust!"
mikegino said....
"Could it be that you have a Ph.D. in Socialism?"
Wow! I didn't realize that the two of you are into stand-up comedy!
indythinker....are you teaching mikegino how to dance? He seems to be picking it up very quickly.....
Hmmmmmm.....it appears that right-wingers are capable of many things if they drink enough of their special Kool-aid!
El Lobo,
Like a certain gay, Jewish senator said to a right wing nut accusing him and our mixed-race president of following Nazi policies, "having a conversation with you is like having a conversation with a dining room table". That statement unfortunately applies to a lot of people.
obama,pelosi,reid,frank,dodd,= ICEBERG! UNITED STATES the titanic.Hope you all know how to hold your breath.
Congressman, not Senator.
How anyone can understand that fat eff Barney Frank is beyond me. That man has a serious speech impediment. He reminds me of mushmouth from Fat Albert.
Blue Dogs will refuse to vote for the Public Option because they are afraid that they will lose in 2010.
The koolaid libs will refuse to vote for a bill that does not the Public Option because they believe in all of us hopping on board to the train wreck to hell.
Obama a great leader of the Democratic Party.....not!!!!!!!!
Obama started with a high approval ratings.
Democrats have large majorities in both houses and now have a lock on Senate control.
Instead of focusing on 1 or 2 things, Obama decides to go for the shotgun approach and it resulted in a big big mess.
Obama has punted promoting his own health care plan. He left it up the likes of Pelosi and Reid and the herd that is called Congress.
Thank you Obama.....you might actually be saving Americans from the lib horde and their ideas.
What exactly has Obama and the Dems passed or done so far......
1) Tax hike that hits poor and low income people
2) Cash giveaways for clunkers
3) Billion dollar giveaways to corporations and banks
4) $20 a week tax credit (McDonalds and Happy Meals sends their regards)
5) Crank up the war in Afhanistan but still does not achieve victory
What they have not passed or done
1) No bill that actually helps the US economy
2) Cap-n-Trade dead
3) Major Health Care reform on life support
4) DOMA Intact
5) Don't Ask Don't Tell Intact
6) Federal Gay Marriage Bill - Super dead
7) Gun Restrictions Law - Super dead
8) Gitmo - Alive and Well
9) Obama is denying habeas corpus rights to detainees
10) Obama is considering keeping detainees locked up without a court trial
11) Still in Iraq with no specific exit date
12) Will be in Afghanistan for at least another 10 years
13) A two trillion dollar deficit this year and trillion dollar deficits in the future as far as the eye can see
I do wish Obama would just focus on the economy.
Also, I pray everynight that Obama stays healthy and well. The country can not afford that idiot Biden at the helm.
LMAO!!!!
In regard to Frank's speech impediment, I like Mark Levin's comment best: "Why do they all talk like that."
hey, mikegino...
do you only like blue-eyed blonde white people that are straight, self-righteous, & overly opinionated?
magpie: my wife happens to be a Mexican Yaqui. How bout them plantains?
yeah, I know. Every time you are asked about being a racist or say something inflammatory you trot out your "Mexican Yaqui" wife. Interesting.
It's only interesting to you because you keep trying to insinuate that he's racist.
Straight from the liberal's playbook!
@El Lobo-
I love the attempt at historical revision.
The "Socialist" in "National Workers Socialist Party" does in fact mean socialism. Socialism is defined by a government that controls the DISTRIBUTION of goods and services. Communism controls production and distribution. The German government under Hitler was very socialist and saw to it that the military and the party faithful had the best access to all goods and services.
In the future, try to keep the obvious attempts at misinformation to a minimum. Then again, the current left knows little about subtlety in the use of propaganda. Like it or not, the attitude and tactics of the left bear great similarity to Nazi political and propaganda tactics in the early 1930's. The economic and government-control ideology of the Democrat party shares more in common with the Nazi party than republican ideoology does.
These are facts, undeniable and icontrovertible.
magpie: the wife doesn't like Lefties or "bleeding hearts" either. Sorry, but you don't get any love from this quarter.
Sorry, gang. My bad. I wasn't aware that there were different rules for racism depending on whether you were a liberal or a conservative. I'll have to remember that one.
Green Dragon Regular.....
Your post is a hoot! I'm still laughing at what you said. The Democrats are a long, long way from being in bed with the Nazi ideology of the 1930's.......
On the other hand, GWB and his corporate cohorts often looked like the second coming of the Third Reich. When Texas George signed the Patriot Act into law, I immediately thought of the various Nuremberg Laws that the Nazi's passed into law in 1935....I'm sure you know something about the Nuremberg Laws, don't you?
The next thing out of your mouth will be the silly belief that there's such a thing as "liberal fascism." Jonah Goldberg would be proud of you. Maybe you bought his silly book!
Claiming that fascism is on the left is like some one else referring to those who sleep on the right as "conservative socialists" or conservative communists." That's also a hoot!
You are correct that the official name of the Nazi Party was the National Socialists German Workers Party. But as I said earlier, the Nazi's hated both socialists and communists.
If you don't believe me, go read Hitler's best selling book, "Mein Kampf." Almost every other paragraph has Hitler ranting against and comdemning the socialists and the communists.
Nice try GDR but no cigar!
@El Lobo-
If you though THAT was a hoot, try these:
""that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens" the abolition of all incomes unearned by work" the ruthless confiscation of all war profits" the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations" profit-sharing in large enterprises" extensive development of insurance for old-age"" -Twenty-Five Point Program of the Nazi Party
"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance."
-Adolf Hitler, 1927
"Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not."
-A. Hitler, 1930
"I want everyone to keep what he has earned subject to the principle that the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the State should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State" The Third Reich will always retain the right to control property owners."
-A. Hilter, 1931
"...basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same." -A. Hitler, 1941
All pretty good quotes, clearly supporting your position...
In addition, Josef Goebbels declared in 1932 that the Nazi party was a "...workers' party..." and "...on the side of labour and against finance."
Collectivism is itself, identified as a major plank of the Nazi Party as early as 1923.
And how did the Nazi party go about all of this? A shining example is what happened to Hugo Junkers, whose aircraft production company was placed under the ownership of the German Volken following his detainment under house arrest, subsequent to which he was "fairly compensated" by the German government. Sound familiar?
As for the Patriot Acts, the loudest opposition to them came not from the democrats, but from the "extreme right", with the democrat leadership largely acquiescing. So much for that, and a flaccid attempt to change the subject.
Now, isn't all that a hoot!
To achieve socialism, one must proceed with nationalization. That would require the absorption of all medical associated companies into one central government owned company. This healthcare reform is not Socialism, it is simply new regulation being put in place to fix a broken system.
The public option can be considered a form of regulation. If a company fails to keep up with the public option, than it fails to be competitive. Being anti-competitive is not a good thing and can be considered a far greater threat to capitalism than even nationalization.
Good example on how the lib mind works.
Public Option: Will be heavily funded by tax money. Will have special rules to exempt it self from the rules placed on private plans. Will be exempted from lawsuits. Will have the power to put a doctor out of business if the doctor does not agree to the terms of the price. Will have the ability to offer less benefits but require the private plans to have more benefits.
Yes, that will be very competitive. It will be like watching a horse race where all the horses but one will be running on three legs. I wonder which horse will win that race.
But if the Democrats want to hang themselves with government healthcare then go right ahead. I do not think the blue dogs want to jump off that bridge yet.
Another hoot by you know who....
I have a question....where did you get the Hitler quotes from? Maybe from Jonah Goldberg's book? Got a link (web site) or two? Probably not....
I especially like this one quote:
"...basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same." -A. Hitler, 1941
This one is also interesting:
"Josef Goebbels declared in 1932 that the Nazi party was a "...workers' party..." and "...on the side of labour and against finance."
Hmmmm....I guess that's why the Nazi's upon gaining power, out-lawed all labor unions. They were for the workers above all else.... And of course, the unions weren't for the workers....Right! Hoot! Hoot!
The Hitler quote you listed saying that Hitler said "...basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same" if actually made at all, came not long after the Germans and the Russians signed a non aggression pact, giving each country a chance to take part of Poland, thus extending Russia's borders on the west and Germany's borders on the east...
Actually, the Nazi's created an extreme right-wing nationalistic totalitarian system based upon complete control of all aspects of every citizens life.....
In this respect they looked a lot like what the communists had done in the Soviet Union but the major difference between the two systems is that under communism, the state owned not only the means of production but all land as well. Not true under German fascism.
"Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism, eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
It's interesting that Hitler did not put the German economy on a complete war time footing until early 1943, some three and a half years after the war had started in 1939. Until the bombs started falling on German cities, many Germans went about their daily business almost uninterrupted. Those who owned a business continued to run their business and tried to carry on a very normal life, watching the news in order to see what was going on with the war...
As I mentioned earlier, the Krupp iron/steel works became one of the biggest backers of National Socialism, but ownership of the company stayed in the hands of the Krupp family through out the war. The Krupp's made millions and millions from the war production that took place in their mills and plants.
More on why Nazism is on the right, and not the left, as some completely "out of touch posters" believe...
David Oshinsky's book review of Goldberg's book first appeared in the New York Times in late 2007. He points out the "great liberties and revisionism" taken by Goldberg to try and paint all Democrat presidents from Woodrow Wilson to Bill Clinton as "fascists." Hoot! Hoot!
Good read..... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/books/...
There are many other reviews that say pretty much the same thing.....
Krases said.....
"To achieve socialism, one must proceed with nationalization. That would require the absorption of all medical associated companies into one central government owned company. This healthcare reform is not Socialism, it is simply new regulation being put in place to fix a broken system."
Thank you......you said in a few words what myself and others have spent a great deal of posting time trying to say.....
You deserve the "hit the nail on the head award."
@El Lobo-
Denial's truly a tragic thing to behold. Totalatarianism, by definition, requires regulation and "total" government. In pure political theory, total government is the extreme position of the left, while anarchy is the extreme position of the right. The right has always espoused less government and the left has always advocated for more. Simple facts.
As for your example of the Krupp family, of course they retained ownership. Socialism, as I stated before, is control of the distribution of goods and services, not the means of production.
How about a nice Orwellian example? Let's take the concept of "hate-crime". Hate is an emotion or thought, right? So let's just drop the word "thought" in place of "hate". Get it? Pretty hard to deny that one isn't it? So, tell me, which side is a bigger advocate of criminalizing thought?
I'n't that a daisy?
GDR......
You still don't get it! Why am I not surprised?
Totalitarism is not something that lingers only over on the left. The Nazi's were on the right and they were all about totalitarism. The Communists, on the other hand, were and still are into totalitarism.....of course they're over on the left.
Your argument is a very weak one....Hardly no argument at all.
The government under Mussolini in Italy and the government under Hitler in Germany were both "fascist" in nature. They weren't 100% alike but they shared most things in common.
Any high school or college text will tell you that "fascism" consists of the following features:
1. One party rule, generally one man rule!
2. Great emphasis on the nation/state concept.
3. Great hatred for democracy, socialism
& commumism
4. Puts the importance of nation/state above
the importance of the individual
5. Glorification of warfare
6. Belief in a "superior race"
7. Aggressive foreign policy
8. Rejects the ideas of the Enlightment
9. Draws great support from business leaders
and wealthy land owners.
10. Against government ownership of property
but not against regulation of the economy in times
such as war.
11..Strong military with emphasis upon required
service by the citizen/soldier
There are several other characteristics of "fascism" but I think you get the point....Actually, which of our two parties best fits the characteristics that I listed? Which one of our two parties is located over on the right?
@El Lobo-
No, I absolutely get it.
Because you have been unable to refute a thing I've said, one single fact, you have turned to obfuscation. You are describing the Italian and German fascism of the 1930s. It takes many forms.
Totalitarianism is NOT a conservative or republican dialectical. The idea that the government that governs best is that which governs least is anathema to a totalitarian approach and the only one of the two parties in this country which tends toward total government, for the good of the state above the individual, and uses the racial and cultural differences of the citizens of the nation as leverage to acheive greater government control is located well to the left of center.
No one is prepared to say the democrat party is getting ready to open camps and get the trains running- quite the contrary. Racial superiority and cleansing is counter to liberal thinking. However, the political mechanisms and legal machinery which enable such activities are a result of bigger government. The crimes of Stalin and Hitler could not have been commited without the massive state and the tacit complicity of the people who supported it. The greatest threat to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is a machine that can be made to remove them.
What do you think the Asimov story "I, Robot" was analogical to? It is about the inorganic reaching an organic state and transitioning from that which serves man to that which man serves. He was talking about government.
It was FDR who rounded up the Japanese and under Wilson (a democrat, who was, by the way, our only president who was also a member of the KKK) German-Americans were taken into custody and deported. It was a democrat South that stood in the way of civil rights, it was a democrat that inflicted the horrors of "reconstruction" on the vanquished South and gave rise to that democrat South. All champions of big government. Kennedy and Johnson escalated the war in Vietnam. Truman took us to Korea, Clinton put us in Somalia, and, by the by, ignored genocide in Rwanda. Even the Mexican-American War was started by a democrat (Polk).
So, which side does the criteria fit?