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twitterdaily memo: health:
Why some American values are obstacles to insurance system overhaul
Reformers must overcome attachments to individualism, capitalism, experts say
Thursday, Aug. 6, 2009 | 2 a.m.
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- State measure could force closure of UMC, county says (3-31-2009)
- Providers close doors to poor (11-16-2008)
- Nevada ranks last as recipient of U.S. funds (6-4-2003)
In the frontier days, Nevada’s economy revolved around mining. The resulting abundance of single men and the high rate of transience contributed to a cultural ethic of independence.
“People were expected to look after themselves,” according to a government history of health care in Nevada. “Government was not expected to provide for their assistance.”
About 150 years later Nevada’s demographics have changed, but its libertarian values are still in play. The emphasis on small government is a primary reason Nevada’s funding for Medicaid, the government’s insurance for the poor, is the lowest per patient in the nation.
In a similar manner, the congressional debate over health care reform is being driven by ingrained cultural values that often go unspoken.
An estimated 46 million Americans have no health insurance. Employers are buried under the rising health insurance costs, as is Medicare, the federal government’s insurance for the elderly and disabled. With Congress on vacation this month (the Senate is scheduled to begin its recess Friday; House members have left Washington), the national politicians are back home — debating, ridiculing and supporting the nuts and bolts of various reform proposals: a public health insurance plan; an emphasis on preventive medicine; insurance mandates; looming taxes and more.
But the surface issues don’t strike at the heart of the health care reform debate, according to ethicists and policy experts. Just as Nevada’s libertarian heritage influences the state’s investment in health care for the poor, discussion to change the nation’s health care system is deeply influenced by cultural values.
Two fundamental American values — capitalism and individualism — present obstacles to significant change. American culture embraces commerce, consumption and profit and elevates the rights of the individual over obligations to the community. This makes it easy for some critics to heap disdain on changes that can be painted as limiting free enterprise, cutting into profits or leading to the real boogeyman — socialism.
American cultural values are “incredibly powerful forces” that influence the debate, said Eric Wright, director of the center for health policy at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. “The problem has been that we’re not making those value distinctions explicit.”
Health care reform advocates are urging a shift in perspective so that medicine moves from a private good, for the benefit of individuals, to a social good for the benefit of all. This raises fears of “rationing,” Wright said, but health care is already rationed — on the basis of a person’s ability to get health insurance.
People don’t talk about the cultural values that influence the debate because “it gets too threatening, it sounds un-American,” Wright said. “It doesn’t matter what you propose, they’ll throw out the ‘s-word’ — socialism.”
Josephine Johnston, a research scholar at The Hastings Center, a bioethics think tank, said there are many examples of health issues where the public good trumps personal autonomy, including seat belts, smoking bans for public spaces and the Medicare and Medicaid systems.
An effective health care overhaul would require a trade-off in values, she said, and sometimes it comes down to how values are emphasized. For example, Americans are individualistic, but they’re also incredibly generous, she said. “People have a sense they need to help the disadvantaged,” she said.
The Hastings Center is pushing the values arguments with its new report: “Connecting American Values with Health Reform.” The report includes essays that show how values such as liberty, justice, fairness and responsibility support the argument that there must be “universal participation” in the health care system.
Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, said the values and ethics of health care are being lost in the current debates muddied by ever-changing proposals. In the 1990s the details of the Clinton plan ran 1,800 pages, he said, but it failed because there was no agreement that health care is a fundamental human right, like food and shelter.
“If you think that health care is a right then everything else gets worked out,” Caplan said.
Ultimately, he said, it comes down to an ethical conviction.
Discussion: 60 comments so far…
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It is much less complicated than you make it. First the government is corrupt to the core. Second the average government employee is a moron. I do not want some illiterate idiot in a government office deciding how my life should be run. I agree with Powerplay, you should move to Sweden. The little drones that inhabit that country lack the basic intellegence to take care of themselves so they turn most of their earnings over to the government. Their government can then provide them with a few basic things so they can subsist. Not live mind you, subsist.
Yes, the govt is corrupt. Bush hired Blackwater, that bastion of Christian business morality.
You guys are sick.
One question that never seems to get asked when the topic of government sponsored health care is getting discussed is ...
Do the countries that presently have a national health system also offer their citizens the option of employer health care as a benefit or the option of purchasing health ins. through private ins. companies?
nice try marshall...
but don't you think it is all about money...
and lobbyists...
and campaign contributions...
and getting re-elected...
hmmm...
tell you what...
what's going on with the hepatittis epidemic???
are you bored by that topic???
has the sun just given up???
aren't those doctors still enjoying their liberty???
what the hell is the district attorney doing???
what the hell is the medical licensing board doing???
now those will be worthwhile articles!!!
Do the countries that presently have a national health system also offer their citizens the option of employer health care as a benefit or the option of purchasing health ins. through private ins. companies?
**************
Yes.
First off, to powerplay, have you never heard the saying that name-calling is the haven of a bad argument?
The article is not in support of or against government-run healthcare; it's simply pointing out that Nevada has a unique set of values that determines how many of us view anything that has to do with system-run benefits.
I agree. Parts of Nevada have become more and more libertarian as the years go on, excepting of course, Las Vegas.
Also, for those of you who apparently can't do a simple internet search or pick up a book, Sweden has controlled capitalism. Similar to other smaller, European nations, Sweden has adapted to a capitalist market while maintaining a higher tax rate in order to provide free amenities to the population. How horrible--the basic amenities! Some tuition-free universities, guaranteed paid leaves if you're pregnant or sick, health care for everyone-- no matter your income level or past medical issues, the possibility of nice, paid housing if you lose your job--yeah, they're just subsisting over there.
Honestly, I'm not saying a capitalists-socialist mixed system would work in the U.S. because, let's face it, we've got a huge, diverse population unlike many of these European countries, but don't demean something you don't understand because you're trying to make an argument. Every system has its issues. You want proof, google 'person dying on hospital floor, no health insurance.'
Right now 85%-90% of Americans are covered by health care plans. The favorite number given for those who are not covered by some type of health care protection is 45 million people. So let's use that number and pull it a part just to see how well off we really are. Of the 45 million who are not covered about 50% or over 22 million can afford health care insurance but have decided to opt out of coverage in favor of self insuring. When they need medical care they simply go in and pay for it. Of the remaining 22 plus million who are not covered, about 10 million are illegal immigrants who should be identified over time and deported,not be made part of the nation's health care net. That leaves about 13 million who are not covered by heath care plans who cannot afford it. These people truly need coverage, and society needs to pony up and see that they are covered.
What is blatant lunacy, however, is to turn the entire current health care system upside down to extend the benefits of the best health care system in the world to a mere 13 million uncovered people in a nation of 300 million. We just need to find a way to pay for these 13 million, and it's not by devastating elderly care by ravaging Medicare--seniors do not have a "duty to die".
Here's my experience of privatized insurance as we currently have it: About 3 years ago, I lost my mother-in-law because she had a brain aneurism and needed a shunt in her head to relieve the pressure. But her insurance company deemed this "elective" surgery and refused to pay for it. Wonderful system you advocate. Can government do any worse? I certainly don't see how.
Comment removed by staff.
Teaser, you need to think outside the box a little bit and you'll see how gov't can make it worse...
Marshall - nice try at a veiled attempt to promote the gov't option...
"About 150 years later Nevada's demographics have changed, but its libertarian values are still in play. "
We are also 100 times wealthier, have advanced medicines, transportation, technology that makes life easier no one dreamed of, and oh yeah, the cost of living is cheaper while life is better.
Government isn't responsible for making our lives better and it never will be. But people will continue to demand it because big government is a useless luxury good that gives some people peace of mind. People justify it suggesting that it is for the greater good and that people don't really know what is best for them.
Houstonjac why do you want to deny me the ability to choose the public option? Why would you deny my freedom?
And what about the crushing economic cost of not reforming the system? We pay almost twice as much for health care as other first-world nations with the same outcome... and that cost is RISING. Health care cost inflation MUST BE ADDRESSED NOW.
Teaser, there are plenty of anecdotes like that on government run health insurance. Sally Pipes, author of "Miracle Cure" (she's a Canadian now living in the US) lost her mom because the Canadian government decided life saving preventive measures were "elective"
It really annoys me when the supporters of universal health care trot out their anecdotes and then dismiss any the other side presents - especially the ones that show universal systems have long waiting lines, can't control costs, and preference the young over the old to a much greater degree than our own flawed insurance system.
I also think its funny that the left once idolized the British system but after serious flaws began to show they jumped ship and ran to the Canadian system as the model to have (now its floundering, what will they fall in love with next?)
"Health care reform advocates are urging a shift in perspective so that medicine moves from a private good, for the benefit of individuals, to a social good for the benefit of all."
I'm getting a feeling from the quotes in the article that these authors feel that they have superior ground to stand on when focusing attention away from practical, economic, and political reasoning. That is not the case at all.
We can easily have a conversation on the morality of individual private health care markets and why it is morally superior to universal health care. We can easily have a conversation on how individualism benefits the greater good, though no by no direct intention, far greater than universal health care can.
"This makes it easy for some critics to heap disdain on changes that can be painted as limiting free enterprise, cutting into profits or leading to the real boogeyman -- socialism."
Socialism is and has always been a dirty word in America. That is why FDR called himself a liberal - a term that meant limited government, free markets and individualism back then.
But you on the left who continue to advocate the "greater good" over the individual and continue to advocate paternalism from big government over individual responsibility have got to own up. You are socialists...maybe diet socialists, but you are socialists advocating socialist solutions. Own it, embrace it, have your ideas live or die by it. Don't lie about it.
"Houstonjac why do you want to deny me the ability to choose the public option? Why would you deny my freedom?"
If the public option is a freedom then it means you have a freedom superior to others. Do you claim to be a superior American?
You see, positive right freedoms (that is government positively guaranteeing you an outcome) means you must have a greater right to the wealth of the country than someone else. You must assert that you can force others to pay to take care of you.
The truth is you do not have a right or a freedom to a public option because you do not have a right or a freedom to seize, by force, other peoples wealth.
Is a living wage a right, too?
The article states:
In the 1990s the details of the Clinton plan ran 1,800 pages, he said, but it failed because there was no agreement that health care is a fundamental human right, like food and shelter.
"If you think that health care is a right then everything else gets worked out," Caplan said.
This brilliant quote comes from Walter Williams, Professor of Economics at George Mason University:
Liberals love to talk about this or that human right, such as a right to health care, food or housing. That's a perverse usage of the term "right." A right, such as a right to free speech, imposes no obligation on another, except that of non-interference. The so-called right to health care, food or housing, whether a person can afford it or not, is something entirely different; it does impose an obligation on another. If one person has a right to something he didn't produce, simultaneously and of necessity it means that some other person does not have right to something he did produce.
Hustonjac has it right. Those of you who want a free ride need to go out and buy insurance coverage yourselves -- like the rest of us are doing. It may mean getting out of your recliner and getting a job but so be it.
Comment removed by staff.
Patrick_K_Gibbons
You are so right on what you speak of. Years ago, I had friends in the UK; they used to regale us with stories about their National Health Care system. Anyone can also google it and read stories on how people were denied life saving treatment, For a simple angioplasty, patients had to wait months and months. People died waiting for treatment for various things that should have been done immediately but because of government bureaucracy - they either were denied or died before their name came up on the list. That was awhile ago. Now the UK has private health insurance but the National system is still there and many do use it. But they have options now.
Most people in this country don't understand how a gov't run health program will be run IF the U.S. models it after other countries.
And let's face it people - you get nothing for nothing. EVERYONE will pay for this whether they use it or not.
Comment removed by staff.
I want the freedom to purchase the health care option of my choice. That freedom should include the ability to purchase the public plan for my health insurance. I said nothing about the right to purchase, but the freedom to purchase.
You do not read very well, Patrick Gibbons.
unless you personally want to take in the homeless and mentally handicapped into your home, what alternative do you have? your idea of taking a walk around the block and ignoring reality will not work and you are acting exactly like your favorite politicians.
Woman Lies Dying on Hospital Emergency Room Floor, Janitor Cleans Around Her, Cops Arrest Her, She Dies
May 21st, 2007
Via: Los Angeles Times: http://cryptogon.com/?p=751
In the emergency room at Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital, Edith Isabel Rodriguez was seen as a complainer.
"Thanks a lot, officers," an emergency room nurse told Los Angeles County police who brought in Rodriguez early May 9 after finding her in front of the Willowbrook hospital yelling for help. "This is her third time here."
The 43-year-old mother of three had been released from the emergency room hours earlier, her third visit in three days for abdominal pain. She'd been given prescription medication and a doctor's appointment.
Turning to Rodriguez, the nurse said, "You have already been seen, and there is nothing we can do," according to a report by the county office of public safety, which provides security at the hospital.
Parked in the emergency room lobby in a wheelchair after police left, she fell to the floor. She lay on the linoleum, writhing in pain, for 45 minutes, as staffers worked at their desks and numerous patients looked on.
Aside from one patient who briefly checked on her condition, no one helped her. A janitor cleaned the floor around her as if she were a piece of furniture. A closed-circuit camera captured everyone's apparent indifference.
Arriving to find Rodriguez on the floor, her boyfriend unsuccessfully tried to enlist help from the medical staff and county police a" even a 911 dispatcher, who balked at sending rescuers to a hospital.
Alerted to the "disturbance" in the lobby, police stepped in a" by running Rodriguez's record. They found an outstanding warrant and prepared to take her to jail. She died before she could be put into a squad car.
******
There are times I am ashamed to be American, This story makes me sad that America is having this debate.
All the people opposed to MEDICARE for ALL, why don't you post comments objecting to Policeman, Firemen, School Teachers, Highway workers and Librarians, to say nothing about our incredible men in the military. (they are all 'socialist' products of our government as well)
I think a 'socialist' Doctor or two in each neighborhood would be the cure. Have the government offer to pay the medical school tuition if the student serves the community for 10 years after graduation.
Katie said: "And let's face it people - you get nothing for nothing. EVERYONE will pay for this whether they use it or not."
***************
Katie, that's the whole idea about socialist healthcare, roads & highways, public schools, post offices, the military, all government functions.
We use it when we need it. Spreading the cost amongst us all, makes it more affordable. We pay so others won't be left destitute and when we need it, we won't be left to 'pay or die' on the hospital room floor.
Birdiedreamin
Hate, hate and more hate... Both major political parties are full of hate. That's why I am an Independent and will make up my own mind, not party line hatred meant to demean people who disagree with them ...
"I want the freedom to purchase the health care option of my choice. That freedom should include the ability to purchase the public plan for my health insurance. I said nothing about the right to purchase, but the freedom to purchase.
You do not read very well, Patrick Gibbons."
The public option will be government subsidized. SO yes, you want the freedom/right (whatever you want to call it) to bully other Americans into subsidizing your life.
"We use it when we need it. Spreading the cost amongst us all, makes it more affordable. We pay so others won't be left destitute and when we need it, we won't be left to 'pay or die' on the hospital room floor."
So the theory goes. The problem is government run operations don't face market forces the same way a private company does. The government doesn't need to provide quality service at a reasonable price in order to stay in business because it takes whatever it wants by force. There are many things within government that distort its operations, slow it down, encourage inefficiencies, and cause massive amounts of waste.
So yes, while in theory having everyone pay would lower the cost (and it will certainly lower costs for some people no matter how inefficnet government gets) it doesn't work out for society as a whole in practice.
Those of us with half a brain left who don't drink fluoridated water, who don't use anti-depressants, who don't drink alcohol, who don't smoke, who eat organic foods, who are not overweight, who make a good living .....we already know that the liberals will pass a healtcare bill regardless of the will of the sheeple. The intent of this legislation however is not benevolent, as the MSM would have us believe. It's another pawn being pushed in a game that will end democracy in the USA, get rid of the middle class, and give the elites what they have always wanted, the end of the American Dream and the ushering in of a New World Order that will ensure the elite banking families and their well connected minions prevent anyone else from "coming up" in the future. When the middle class is destroyed by the VAT tax that will surely come our way after this legislation is passed, when federal taxes are raised to start paying down the trillions in handouts the corrupt politicians gave to the banking families and their minions, when NV starts charging us a state income tax to help keep the schools and colleges open, then the avg person will pay 70% of their income to the government. The rich will pay 80-90%. Can't you people see this is just another ploy to usher in a socialist society where the masses are poor and looking for a handout and capitalism will be seen as evil?
"Don't you care about the poor?" Please, don't show your ignorance by saying that! The poor already get a free ride with healthcare. They walk into any emergency room and get FREE treatment already! Under the Obama system, they'd have to wait in line for health care and if they're old, they might not get treated per the "lottery system" that is in place in other countries and will be put in place here soon. It will be some government schmuck who will decide if you have enough years left in your life to warranty that hip replacement or operation! Once this legislation is passed, it will put all other insurance providers out of business within 10 years and they know it. I pity those who have not taken care of their health and will rely on this system in the future. You will suffer then die an ignominious death, Will Smith.
How ironic that many in this country believe that government can't do anything right. I guess this means they'll be turning down the government-sponsored swine flu shots later this year! IMO the problem isn't ideological or cultural in nature, but is in the hearts of Americans who want to benefit from what the government can do at all levels(interstate hwys., swine flu shots, fire depts, hospitals, schools, libraries, the military, etc)and fail to realize that you cannot get something for nothing. If you want small government that is okay by me, just don't whine if you get sick at home and the ambulance which is supported by tax(government) dollars (in most cases) doesn't show up or when a bridge collapses imperiling the lives of a busload of students and emergency rescuers don't show up. Rail against government intervention all you want, but don't holler too loudly when things go bad.
It's a shame really that we don't focus this debate on the real culprits: Congress. If they would give us taxpayers the same gold-plated health care insurance that they have. . . FREE to themselves= their health care program paid for by our taxpayer dollars.
If they were subject to social security retirement the same as us taxpayers, instead of enjoying a taxpayer paid gold-plate retirement system for the elite members of congress.
I think I'll run in the next election for congress, my platform? 1) I want the free gold-plated health care plan allotted to members of Congress. 2) I want the free 'gold-plated' retirement plan given to the exclusive members of club 'congress'.
Shrek, maybe we should just get rid of all those "gold-plated" plans?
What makes you think that politicians won't carve themselves more unequal benefits?
Sergio, are you implying that fluoridated water is hazardous to your health? Gimme a break. I thought people had given up on that conspiracy theory.
Comment removed by staff.
Robert and I have been fortunate to travel and when we do we always ask questions of our tour guides.
On a recent trip to Northern Europe, Amsterdam specifically, we asked our tour giude about their social services system.
She smiled at us Americans on the bus and explained to us how their taxes fund their health and education systems. Needless to say there was a gasp on the bus when she proclaimed, still smiling, that they pay 37% of their income in taxes!
Then she went on to explain how when their children pull better than average grades in school, the student doesn't have to go to a bank and BORROW MONEY FROM THE BANK TO FUND THEIR EDUCATION!! Thats right, if they pull the grades they don't come out of college in debt!
Their helath care system is ranked as one of the finest in the world. BUT HERE'S THE CLINCHER:
She asked us what she thought WE paid in taxes to our government! She explained that although she understood that an American's taxes may vary from state to state the average american PAYS APPROX. 34% of our income in fees and taxes!!!
Then she gingerly asked why we didn't feel ripped off (my words) paying all that money and getting so little in return.
You could see the reflective, almost stupid look on us traveler's faces as we absorbed what she had just said to us!
Sometimes they know more about us than we know about ourseves!!
Stuart & Robert Wman-Cahall
Las Vegas, NV 89142
You think the swine flu vaccine will protect you from getting the flu or swine flu? Prove it! Can't? Didn't think so. Watch the video on vaccines then come holler back girl.
As for the dimwit who says that fluoridated water is a conspiracy theory, more proof that the sheeple spend more time looking at porn on the web rather than researching the facts. The following are not theories, they're the truth, and the truth is what it is, skippy, not a theory:
If fluoride more toxic than lead? Yes. Do studies suggest 1ppm of fluoride will help with tooth decay? Not one. On the other hand, over 60 studies have shown that 1ppm of fluoride in water from HA (not naturally occurring fluoride, apples and oranges, what they put in our water is considered a toxic waste. It's other use, rat poison) causes around 10 point drop in IQ, a rise in childhood cancers, especially bone cancers, and most importantly, it kills enzymes. However, dumping this toxic waste into our water is a national security issue. If they don't dump it into water, taxpayers would have to pay for disposal. It can't be stored in steel tubs, eats right through it. Here is a good website that points out the censorship by the MSM about the science proving fluorides dangers: http://www.fluoridation.com/censor.htm Even ADA warns not to allow infants to drink fluoridated water yet poor infants in LV have no choice. Their formula has fluoride in it and most of the processed food is made with fluoride water. We all have this toxin in us like it or now, and it's health consequences are irrefutable. Why does the gov dump rat poison in our water? No question, national security. The nuclear age started at the same time they started dumping this toxic waste into our water without even 1 health study and no science to support the benefits of ingesting fluoride internally. All science documents the dire health consequences. Yet the gov allows this? Ask yourself why, after you do some due diligence on the subject. Bottom line, fluoride is a powerful neurotoxin which also destroys enzymes needed for proper digestion, damages sperm and thus causes lower fertility, among other things. It's what your government wants you to drink. Ask yourself why. Then realize these are the criminals who want to decide what medical services you will be able to receive, if any. If you're an old bastard, hasta la vista!
Birdiedreamin said: "hey katie and larry...
bite me..."
You shouldn't post things like that. I know it feels good to get things off your chest. But there is a saying back on the farm:
"Don't wrestle with pigs, because the pigs like it and you get dirty"
but it is GOOD to combat each 'lie or scare tactic' with the truth.
If you hear anything on the news about health care reform that will 'kill grandma', or 'kill competition', please fact check the 'claims' at the website above before passing it on to your email list.
http://ourfuture.org/healthcare/healthre...
When you hear on the news that our health care in the USA is the BEST in the world, check out the facts here: (clue: USA is #45 on the list of life expectancy) If we had the best healthcare in the world. Wouldn't we need to be at the top of the list? But we spend $15,000 per year per person, 52 million un-insured and 75 people per day dying because of no way to pay for medical care. On WHAT PLANET is this called 'the best medical care in the world'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...
Wow... where to start, Sergio?....
Now I may be be a dimwit, but I'm a dimwit who went to DENTAL SCHOOL for 4 years (how's that for "due diligence"). So let me break this down as simply as I can for you....
Fluoridation of water = good for people.
And just a word of advice about your internet "research." The stuff you take for "fact" is about as useful as the porn sites frequented by the "sheeple." Any idiot can (and will) start a website skewing facts in order to scare people away from fluoride, vaccinations, or anything else they can dream up. It doesn't make them right.... It just makes you gullible.
Birdiedreamin,
I know you are not going anywhere because you have no where to go... Too bad... So much built up hate that you can't post decent comments that are relevant to the discussion topic.
Comment removed by staff.
Hey Jeff,
Why is it that the AMA opposed water fluoridation at first, until they got bought off 20 years after it started. Here are a few oldies but goodies from the AMA and medical establishment on fluoride. Note that not one of the people quoted here are expert, not just "doctors or dentists"> Good to know not ever medical professional is on the take:
"The American Medical Association is NOT prepared to state that no harm will be done to any person by water fluoridation. The AMA has not carried out any research work, either long-term or short-term, regarding the possibility of any side effects." - Dr. Flanagan, Assistant Director of Environmental Health, American Medical Association
"Based on data from the National Academy of Sciences, current levels of fluoride exposure in drinking water may cause arthritis in a substantial portion of the population long before they reach old age" -Dr. Robert Carton, former EPA Scientist.
"Fluorides are general protoplasmic poisons, probably because of their capacity to modify the metabolism of cells by changing the permeability of the cell membrane and by inhibiting certain enzyme systems." Journal of the American Medical Association, Sept 18, 1943
More to come
Segments of the population are unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride. They include "postmenopausal women and elderly men, pregnant woman and their fetuses, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium and/or vitamin C, and people with cardiovascular and kidney problems." United States Public Health Service Report (ATSDR TP-91/17, pg. 112, Sec.2.7, April 1993)
"fluoride exposure, at levels that are experienced by a significant proportion of the population whose drinking water is fluoridated, may have adverse impacts on the developing brain." Greater Boston Physicians for Social Responsibility, May 2000
"It is now clear that fluoride is a potentially harmful substance when present in the drinking water in any amount." Dr. Simon Beisler, Chief of Urlogy, Roosevelt Hospital and Past President of the American Urological Association.
"The plain fact that fluorine is an insidious poison harmful, toxic and cumulative in its effects, even when ingested in minimal amounts, will remain unchanged no matter how many times it will be repeated in print that fluoridation of the water supply is 'safe.'" Dr. Ludgwig Grosse, Chief of Cancer Research, U.S. Veterans Administration.
In Harlem, NY, which has been fluoridated for 32 years, "There's more dental decay among these kids; we see the beginning of inflamed gingivitis in their mouths." American Dental Association, May 2000
"Fluoride has been shown to adversely effect the central nervous system, causing behavioral changes, increased hip fractures and reproduction problems." Natick Report Research Team: Research Microbiologist, U.S. Army, Dr. B. J. Gallo, Environmental Chemist, J. Kupperschmidt Apollo Program Project Scientist, Dr. N.R. Mancuso, U.S. Army Natick Research Labs, A. Murray, Molecular Biologist, Dr. Strauss.
"I am appalled at the prospect of using water as a vehicle for drugs. Fluoride is a corrosive poison that will produce serious effects on a long range basis. Any attempt to use water this way is deplorable." - Dr. Charles Gordon Heyd, Past President of the American Medical Association.
"fluoridation ... it is the greatest fraud that has ever been perpetrated and it has been perpetrated on more people than any other fraud has." - Dr. Professor Albert Schatz, (Microbiology), co-discoverer of Streptomycin, the cure for tuberculosis and numerous other bacterial infections.
More to come
Fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth and overall health.. it doesn't need to be added to our water and we may be taking unnecessary risks by doing so. - Dr. Hardy Limeback, a leading Canadian fluoride authority, former fluoride advocate and long-standing consultant to Canadian Dental Association. (read his rationale)
"By 1983 I was thoroughly convinced that fluoridation caused more harm than good. I expressed the opinion that some of these children with dental fluorosis could, just possibly, have also suffered harm to their bones" - Dr. Colquhoun, former Principal Dental Officer for Auckland New Zealand. (read his rationale)
"E.P.A. should act immediately to protect the public, not just on the cancer data, but on the evidence of bone fractures, arthritis, mutagenicity and other effects." - Dr. William Marcus, Senior Toxicologist at E.P.A.
In 1996, there were approximately 340,000 hospital admissions for hip fractures in the United States. Women sustain 75 percent-80 percent of all hip fractures. Medicare costs for hip fractures were estimated at $2.9 billion in 1991. Centers for Disease Control
"About one-half of the people with hip fractures end up in nursing homes, and in the year following the fracture, 20 per cent of them die." Harold Slavkin, Director of National Institute of Dental Research (JADA 1999)
"..fluoride damages bone even at levels added to public drinking water" American Journal of Epidemiology, October 1999
"Since 1990, five major epidemiological studies from three countries-the United States, United Kingdom and France-- showing a higher rate of hip fractures in fluoridated regions.." Australian & New Zealand Journal of Public Health, 1997 vol. 21 no. 24
"..significant increase in the risk of hip fracture in both men and women exposed to artificial fluoridation at 1 ppm." Journal of the American Medical Association, August 1992
"..the recommended "optimal" intake (a level that has yet to be determined scientifically)." Journal of the American Dental Association, Dec. 1995
Hundreds of millions of dollars may be wasted annually on children's fluoride treatments by dentists. Typically given once or twice a year at routine checkups, the treatments do nothing to reduce cavities in kids, says a study of insurance records. Journal of Public Health Dentistry
Still think dumping toxic waste in our water is "good for us"?
Having a national health care system doesn't eliminate the options for private care. It simply provides a base of general care. You can see how this works when looking at the USPS vs. FedEx or UPS. Both can exist and offer options to those who don't want the public system. Schools are another good example.
Found an interesting poll on health care reform:
http://www.polladium.com/poll_results.ph...
---Still think dumping toxic waste in our water is "good for us"?---
Nope.... you've converted me. I mean, to hell with my knowledge and experience in dental education/practice/research. I'm going to base my new-found opinion on half-truth propaganda posted to an internet forum. All of which was copy-and-pasted from www.we-dont-want-nunna-that-there-floo-r...
USPS is now losing money so they're closing Post Offices, firing people, etc. Why? The economy continues to nose dive, regardless of what the talking heads tell us. Increased taxes on the rich will only ensure that a recovery is not in impossible. More government equals more taxes which means less money to invest which means less growth which means bye bye to luxury items, luxury industries such as our tourism and gambling industry, and bye bye to the middle class. This debate is not about health care. This debate is about the end of our democracy. The ushering in of a socialist government. The end of the American dream and the beginning of a communist type nightmare with social unrest, a police state, man made plagues to thin out the starving population, and forced vaccinations to ensure nobody escapes unscathed. We're in the end game. They need nationalized health care not to fix a broken system, that is obvious. No. They need nationalized healthcare to bankrupt the middle class with a 20% VAT tax, drive a final nail into the skull of our already bleeding economy, and to ensure they can push their poisons (vaccines) upon the sheeple in a more forceful fashion.
Anyone who understands finance, the constitution, socialism, secret societies, and the nature of the beast knows that these things I say are true! A broke household or business wouldn't try to usher in a new program in the midst of a recession that is poised to become a depression after a few more fatal errors are made (this being one, the coming VAT tax another) unless they're trying to destroy the republic and replace it with something else, say, a socialist-communist style form of government. This is all 100% by design. Anyone who thinks corrupt on the take politicians and bureaucrats that are inherently incapable of running any government agency efficiently, without waste, and without corruption ($100 hammers, non-caring workers at the DMV, SSI offices, Vet affairs offices, etc) will be able to give them health care is 100% nuts.
Jeff said: "to hell with my knowledge and experience in dental education/practice/research"
Medical schools are funded by medical organizations which are funded by large corporations (big pharma, toxic polluters, etc) which are in business to make money, not tell the truth or be impartial. Here's a good article to clue you folks in on the type of education Jeff here received: http://www.jsonline.com/news/42064977.ht...
It's sickening to think or doctors and dentists are nothing more than whores of the drug companies, not having learned truth in their education but rather one sided propaganda from those with insane financial interests at stake. (billions)
These toxic polluters told Jeff that fluoride is okay to put on teeth, but they didn't tell them the risks, down side, history, etc of fluoride. Why should they? You're not going to teach your whore the pimp game, just how to get the johns to pay for this or that service. You see ho's are on a need to know basis, thus, our doctors and dentists these days are only fed what their pimps what them to know. Not the truth. Not the facts. Just propaganda.
You know what really disturbs me about this debate, that kids and the elderly are the ones that are suffering the most because of these toxins, vaccines, etc. Fluoride kills enzymes needed to flush toxins from our system. Vaccines pump our kids full of toxins. Then things like Autims which was unheard of 40 years ago when only 6 vaccines were given to infants and kids, now the number of vaccines is 30 before 1st grade. Now 1-40 boys (in UK, parts of US) develop autism. Not from the mercury, from the many toxins and viruses that cause the body to turn on itself. (auto-antibody disease, like arthritis) When the measles virus from vaccines lodges in the brain, the body attacks the brain, what we call autism. In my next post, I'll quote a study that proves this point.
A highly respected and well-published scientist at the Utah State University, Vijendra K. Singh has further linked autism to the MMR vaccine. His study published in New Foundation of Biology, Elsevier Science BV 2001: 447-58 titled Neuro-immunopathogenesis in Autism provides brain autoantibody and virus serology evidence that links autism to MMR and postulates autism as a neuroautoimmune response that occurs at the neuroimmune biological interface.
Singh found that autoantibodies to myelin basic proteins were present in 80% of autistic children but that none were found in the normal children control group and only rarely in all other controls. These autoantibodies attack the basic proteins that constitute myelin, which surrounds the sheaths of nerve fibers. Regarding the virus serology, autistic children had a significantly higher level of measles virus antibodies as compared to controls, which suggests a temporal link of measles virus with autoimmunity in autism.
Furthermore, Singh found a very important serological association between measles antibody level and antiMBP, which showed that the higher the measles antibody titer the greater the chance of autoantibodies to myelin basic protein. The shocking fact is that none of the children had a wild-type measles infection, but they all had the measles mumps rubella (MMR) vaccine.
Singh also offers hope. He notes an open label trial of oral Sphingolin (myelin containing autoantigen) is being assessed. Preliminary results show significant improvement in autistic people, which further support the neuroimmune pathogenesis in autism.
Vijendra K. Singh, Department of Biology and Biotechnology Center, Utah State University, Logan, Utah, US Researcher links MMR to autism
That's right.... I'm the one who's been duped. Here I thought that an ADA-accredited institution would provide excellent insight to the nature of fluoride. Little did I know that my professors and collegues are just a bunch of evil white-coat wearing fluoro-pimps.
Yes, the internet with all its impeccable peer-revision has made you the expert, while I am the poor bastard being used as a puppet.
Well, it's sure been fun Dr. Strangelove, but alas, the real world goes on and I must now bid farewell to conspiracy la-la-land.
...Remember, the real world is a big place with space for everybody, so you are welcome to join us at any time.
Goodnight and remember to brush your teeth!!! (Just don't swallow any of the paste... Wouldn't want you to bore a gaping hole through your viscera)
LOL, Jeff, you sound like a good guy. Just do your patients a favor and investigate the history of fluoride and the suppressed contra-fluoride studies with an open mind. There is a conspiracy to keep fluoride in good standing, of that there is no doubt. If there wasn't, why is there a concerted effort to publish only pro-fluoride papers and omit the studies that raise concerns? Doesn't censorship of scientific data raise a red flag for you? Do you deny such censorship exists? If so, take a look at the link I provided above. That information was not fabricated. Just the facts, Dano. Just the facts.
I personally use Toms natural tooth paste. I also gargle with ozonated water. Kills bacteria that leads to gum disease. Good stuff. Cheap too, only $138 for my Ionic Zone ozonator that also ozonates oil for skin care, burns, etc. I helped a relative beat cancer with ozone, no side effects either. I'm pretty sure the drug companies won't allow Obama to allow us to use alternative health as part of his plan, only the toxic pharma drugs. Another reason I'm living "la vida pura" during the winter in Costa Rica these days and full time in the near future. I look forward to growing my own organic food, raising hormone and pesticide free cattle, drinking organic raw milk, living with freedom year round. Maybe you'll become like this dentist once you look at the evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEaYyfWJc...
It's time to end our "risky experiment" of "maybe insurance". What's proven is 'maybe they'll pay', more likely they won't. It's a proven failure.
Support HR676. It's a Single Payer system that is proven, pro-business and pro-people:
* Slashes at least 30% of costs off the top by removing private insurance overhead.
* Companies take health care expenses off their books. Stock value increases. Better able to compete internationally.
* Small companies could have access to higher skilled workers because previously they couldn't compete in the labor market by offering similar benefits.
* More entrepreneurial ventures will launch since they have more money and less unrelated risk.
* Dramatic drop in bankruptcies.
* Dramatic drop in lawsuits. Most of these lawsuits are simply to obtain money to cover health care if something interrupts their coverage.
* Reduced system complexity. Greater efficiency due to fewer regulations.
* Savings from employees not having to fight with their insurers during work hours.
* HSA and MSA dollars redirected back into the economy for goods and services.
* Additional money to spend from not having to carry "uninsured motorist coverage" on your auto policy.
* Contract employment is more viable for workers since they are guaranteed access to health care.
* People are covered when unemployed. No chance of being wiped out financially if you lose your job.
* Health care providers (doctors, hospitals, therapists...) see increase in business with much less administrative expense.
*************
Read this new article in BusinessWeek (the 'maybe' insurance companies have already won!)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/con...
Shocking huh?
shrek is like so many libs.
They are lost and have no clue what is getting pushed in DC.
Just a FYI, a "single payer" program is not what is getting pushed.
This just proves that they are lacking a true leader to lead them.
Govt will screw it up; it will either be rife with fraud, waste and abuse - or - in an effort to prevent fraud, waste & abuse, so overwhelmingly bureuacratic that only a small portion of the taxpayer's dollars will actually go to those it's supposed to serve. And in either instance, it will drag the conomy down further.
I don't like the idea of a single payer system, or some hybrid intended to bridge us to a single payer system, but if stuck I'm going to want the d**n thing to be as efficient & effective as possible. And it better not support abortion, euthansia, or illegals -- and it'd better include every single member of Congress!)
And a Govt program will be directive. You can be damn sure that if I'm paying taxes to support Sluggo down the street, he's going to have to quit smoking, moderate his drinking, eat right, quit s****g around, and moderately exercise just like me -- or pay "sin" taxes out the nose for the privelage of recieving my support!
We need healthcare reform. What we don't need is the enigma written in lawyer-speak being proffered by the Demos. Even they don't know what it says or understand it -- they simply recite some bumper sticker slogans and call it policy. They should have the b***s to be honest & up front and say they want national healthcare for everyone, and quit waffling around like a bunch of weasels trying to rip us off. And the GOP needs to come up with a coherent and understandable alternative and communicate that to the public. Then let the voters decide after reasonable debate. Both the Demos and the GOP are messing this up -- maybe we should let the Liberterians and the Greens come up with something (at least they're a little less in bed with the special interests!)
46 million Americans do not have health insurance is a fraud. These are the same people that drive new cars and have big homes, and credit cards. They would just rather have these things then pay for health insurance. You cannot count the homeless type people in these statistics because they could not afford insurance anyway. Homeless people have free medical now anyway.
Both parties have been accepting lobby and campaign money from BIG FOOD and BIG Agriculture for years. It's just like Tobacco, everyone wanted to blame "personal choice" or look the other way..distract the taxpayers, that was the GOAL.
Government has been hiding the fact that they don't want to give up their addiction to junk food funding!
That would mean that Pepsico and Altria and Nabisco would be suffering and not stuffing the shelves of every store in this country, oh hell,IF what would happen, we would have a country that looked like FRANCE! Skinny and healthy, HUH!
They don't have junk food filling THEIR shelves.They don't have soda pop companies paying for their election campaigns either.
We have a health care crisis all right, and all the reforms in the world aren't going to fix the out of control disease processes that are plaguing our nation ..OBESITY, DIABETES, HYPERTENSION, HEART DISEASE, STROKE, BACK PROBLEMs..the list is endless..(I'm a NURSE..I CAN go on..)
Thanks to the greedy politicians and BIG FOOD Producers who so kindly protect each other AND the pharmaceutical industry, their NEW "best friends"!We can all give a big round of applause to the junk that we have to plow through just to get through the front door of the grocery store, only to avoid an avalanche of Doritos,lays potato chips, Cheetos, and masses of a million kinds of cookies, only to come home to watch Mark Summers, the Devil incarnate himself, talk about MONDO JUICE and how it's made in the factory so you can put that poison in your fat kid's lunch box!
Change stations on the discovery channel so you can now watch children having gastric bypass surgery..because...it's the parent's fault???
Come on now...
In the 1950's, 60's, 70's 80's when I was growing up...was there THIS MUCH ILLNESS related to obesity and junk food?
NO.
And there wasn't so much of it being produced or marketed to us either. That's your answer.
The obesity factor has DOUBLED in 10 yrs. in another 10, are you going to WAIT to see if health care reform is going to fix this?
Are you CRAZY? Read the lawsuits against the tobacco industry. That's what happened, the people ended up waiting too long. It was TOO LATE for them...they all died of lung cancer.
This Health Care reform is nothing more than a distraction, a sham, a joke, and a little PLAY. Look back. ALL of the presidents did the SAME THING! one by one!!LOL!
It's a little game they play! "Keep away from election reform! we want our lobby money, even if it means our country dies from the FOOD they buy!"
Health Care reform? where will your health care workers be? Nurses and Nursing Aides are being paid minimally, now, there is a hiring freeze! They eat fast food to get themselves going since there is no time to eat a real meal, so, they too, are OBESE! They will be sick, fat, and not able to take care of the sick fat and obese people who are eating Frito Lay and Pepsi products that our kind Government REFUSES to let go of...the campaign contributions of..
The reality is: the Nation is getting sicker ans sicker EVERY single day that you wait and do nothing to address this issue. It's not about health care, it's about the poison that the government enables on the shelves of your neighborhood grocery store shelves! It's about the subsidies to the farmers who grow cheap stuff to make you sick CORN for high fructose corn syrup. Get with it folks! Open your eyes before it's too late!
Obama's gonna kill Grandma?
See:
http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009...