Letter to the Editor:

A regular high-speed train would do

Philip Jordan, Henderson

Thursday, Dec. 25, 2008 | 2:01 a.m.

Building a high-speed rail line between Las Vegas and Southern California would be a welcome move.

But what’s with this bone-headed idea of making it a maglev train?

Maglev trains represent an expensive technology that is not yet ready for prime time.

Luckily, there is no need to risk experimental concepts.

European high-speed trains are already in their second generation and running at speeds near 300 mph on a huge multinational network that is highly successful. And those trains are made by companies that would be only too glad to start building a line here tomorrow at an affordable price.

I have traveled on the European lines, and the superb engineering, smooth, rock steadiness at speed and wonderfully quiet interiors of these beautifully designed trains put so-called express trains in the U.S. to shame.

Making the trip from Las Vegas to California in 86 minutes is unnecessary. All the train has to do is match or, preferably, beat the city-center-to-city-center times for driving or flying, at a reasonable price. Exactly the European model.

But one of the newest European trains could do the 288 miles to the coast in about 1 hour on simple metal rails.

And what’s with making the line go to Anaheim, Calif.?

It needs to go directly to Los Angeles, the biggest single population and business center, so travelers can change to that city’s existing public transit and Amtrak hubs.

Discussion: 8 comments so far…

Comments are moderated by Las Vegas Sun editors. Our goal is not to limit the discussion, but rather to elevate it. Comments should be relevant and contain no abusive language. Comments that are off-topic, vulgar, profane or include personal attacks will be removed. Full comments policy.

By doogie

Dec. 25, 2008

6:08 a.m.

Suggest removal

Nice letter. But we all know that this train talk is just Pollyanish dreaming. Since the vast majority of the train line travels through California, we are screwed. The state is broke, and the last thing they would support is a train that basically takes them to casinos that don't give them a dime back for the train. Yet, look at their Indian casinos-massive money makers that give almost nothing to their state. How'd that happen? Because the residents of La La land find it impossible to do anything sensibly. One example-many letter writers here have espoused Nevada building a desalinization plant on the coast to swap water with Cal so that they stop taking water out of the Colorado River. Good idea? Nah, the California Coastal Commission has already said that such a plant will harm the fishies and create ecological imbalances-whatever those are. No way the same people would ever support a train. Sorry...
By larry2372

Dec. 25, 2008

7:46 a.m.

Suggest removal

There's nothing "bone-headed" about the idea of making the Las Vegas - Anaheim route serviced by a maglev train. For one thing, maglev can negotiate grades along the way (Cajon Pass) two to three times better than conventional steel-wheel trains. For another, maglev can bank three to four times more sharply, allowing it to remain inside highway rights of way for longer periods. It's also much quieter, so entering and leaving urban areas and stations is less disruptive to the locals.

No doubt European -- and Asian -- trains are terrific transportation systems. I've traveled on the European lines, too, and as you say, the superb engineering, steadiness at speed and quiet interiors of these trains put so-called express trains in the U.S. to shame. But that's another story.

There may be a translation problem in your primary argument, though. European high-speed trains are already in their second generation, sure, but they are not running at speeds near 300 mph. Far from it. Typical maximum operating speeds for TGV/ICE/Eurostar trains are in the 300 kilometers per hour range, which is 186 mph. That's a maximum, remember.

According to http://wapedia.mobi/en/High-speed_rail?t...., the highest scheduled average speed between two scheduled stops is held by TGV and ICE service on part of the TGV Est Line in France at 279.4 km/h (174 mph) from Lorraine-TGV to Champagne-Ardennes-TGV. So your hyothetical 288-mile trip would most likely end up being two hours.

Lastly, who's to say that making the trip from Las Vegas to California in 86 minutes is unnecessary? Americans seem to have a need for speed, and in the future, when this line is up and running, such speeds might be necessary to be economically competitive.
By Ven

Dec. 25, 2008

10:38 a.m.

Suggest removal

I completely agree with the article. There is no need for maglev trains when current steel rail high speed trans are more than sufficient.

And just to get some of the speeds straight as messed up by the previous poster larry, the TGV on select lines travels at 199mph (this will be France's new standardized speed - up from 186). The chinese high speed train (based on the Seimens Velaro) runs at a top speed of 217mph as it does in Spain on the new Madrid line. Their new Beijing to Shanghai line plans on the train running at 236 mph. The AGV is set to run at 225mph. The only commercial maglev in existence runs at 260mph With the extra cost involved, maglev is not worth it.
By jacqueline

Dec. 25, 2008

4:51 p.m.

Suggest removal

How long has a train line along this route been proposed - 20 years or so now? While it sounds like a great idea, it never seems to happen. Are the right people not being greased? Wake me up when you make the first voyage. Until then, I will not be holding my breath.
By SFnative

Dec. 25, 2008

11:59 p.m.

Suggest removal

The article is correct. Actually what makes the most sense is to simply tie into the CA HSR line at Palmdale or Mojave. Lots of people from up here in norcal also want to take the trian for vegas. I work for amtrak and get asked every single day about "how can we take the train to vegas" and I mean EVERY DAY...... so the cheapest option is a connection from the high desert to vegas bring equal access from LA and SF to vegas. Use the same technology and the same type of train sets. This add profitability options to the hsr system as a whole for thos interested in bidding on the operations. Ca and NV would have to split the infrastructure cost and both would reap the benefits, NV gets tourism from cali ( including million of foreign visitors who could visit vegas next door) and CA gets the benefit of having a larger more profitable system to offer up for bid to private sector if they choose. Ptetty simple and cheap to have a branch line across the desert from mojave to primm. The grades a really not an issues all the grades from the high desert to the vegas valley can be managed with a little cut and fill.
By uddeboda

Dec. 26, 2008

12:33 a.m.

Suggest removal

Even here in Sweden we have "high speed" trains running on regular tracks. The only difference here is that our high speed trains are the tilting type, which tilt slightly on the slightly raised curves, thus enabling them to run at a max of 240kph, making even your regular trains seem like donkey carts
By rafael

Dec. 28, 2008

5:53 a.m.

Suggest removal

@ Philip Jordan -

while I agree with you that conventional steel wheels technology represents much smaller technology risk, the maximum sustained speed in commercial service is currently about 220mph. IFF Nevada decided to build a spur off the California system at Mojave, that would mean line haul times of

~1:10h to Palmdale airport
~1:40h to Los Angeles
~2:00h to Anaheim
~2:50h to San Diego
~3:00h to Sacramento
~3:20h to San Francisco

Ergo, steels wheels is slower to Anaheim than maglev, but it gets you to many more places. With video-on-demand, video-games-on-demand, live entertainment and at-seat meals (prepared fresh, cp Eurostar) in the "High Roller Class" plus reliable broadband internet access (cp Thalys, TGV Est), the time difference becomes irrelevant.
By rafael

Dec. 28, 2008

6:04 a.m.

Suggest removal

Where to get the ~$10 billion needed for a steel wheels spur:

(a) enlist the private investors in DesertXPress to join the effort and lay tracks to Mojave instead of creating a giant parking lot at Victorville. Salvage EIR/EIS work already done. There is no need for a mountain crossing at Cajon Pass and the San Andreas fault.

(b) cancel plans for both maglev and the Ivanpah Valley airport, use money saved to pay for overhead catenaries. One third of traffic at McCurran is with cities that will be served by California HSR. Palmdale+HSR can provide capacity relief at peak times. Besides, now that CA has decided on steel wheels HSR, there is anyhow no ROW for maglev between Colton and Pomona. Also, the median lanes of hwy 57 to Anaheim are no longer available.

(c) run high voltage DC distribution line above or alongside rail spur to export hydro and solar thermal electricity to California, charge utility for ROW. A solar thermal power plant at Ivanpah site will be sufficient to run the entire two-state HSR system, which CHSRA has decided will run exclusively on renewable power. It is very difficult to obtain construction permits for solar thermal power plants in CA. A combo deal involving electricity supply is essential to overcome resistance to any spur to Las Vegas from powerful Indian gaming interests in CA.

(d) secure federal match/match-plus funds for in-state public investment (state of Nevada, Clark county, city of Las Vegas). The state of California can't pay a dime toward a spur to Las Vegas because it is flat broke. However, the two states could pool their purchasing power for infrastructure, trainset and maintenance contracts.

(e) also operate high speed cargo trainsets, either attached to passenger trainsets during the day or, autonomously at night. Cargo could include fresh meats and fish, fresh fruits and vegetables, fresh cut flowers, mail, packages and air cargo containers.