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Sunday, Feb. 17, 2013 | 2:01 a.m.
Another view?
View more of the Las Vegas Sun's opinion section:
• Editorials - the Sun's viewpoint.
• Columnists - local and syndicated writers.
• Letters to the editor - readers' views.
Have your own opinion? Write a letter to the editor.
Regarding Bill Miller’s letter, “Direct democracy empowers people”:
Mr. Miller’s ideas about democracy are very nice. And we certainly have the technology to pull them off. Unfortunately, they have only one minor flaw: Democracy simply doesn’t work. It didn’t work for the ancient Greeks. It didn’t work for the Romans. There is an old saying about democracies: A democracy is six wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.
Throughout history, the outside life span of a democracy has been about 300 years. Our Founding Fathers knew this. It is why they tried to create a republic. Originally, only landowners could vote.
There is a simple truth: You can not let people vote who have no skin in the game. They will vote themselves all kinds of benefits with no regard to how it is going to be paid. Eventually the Ponzi scheme collapses. And the poor suffer the most.
It all comes down to that overused word: greed. We are all greedy. It is why capitalism works and socialism fails. Socialism has no mechanism to harness our basic self-interest. And what could possibly be greedier than believing you have the right to other people’s money without giving anything in return?
Even the British band Ten Years After had that figured out when they sang, “Tax the rich, feed the poor till there are no rich no more.”
Gerald,
The taker mentality you describe is the one that appeared in 2011, a year before elections, it was called the occupy movement. It was the democrat's response to the TEA party movement but the occupy movement fizzled and died quickly leaving the front pages of the mainstream media. The Occupy group was comprised mainly of radical teachers/students, socialists, anarchists and unionized workers which is not mainstream America.
A majority of Americans believe America is an exceptional nation. A nation with a strong work ethic, an entrepreneurial spirit and a nation that provides the conditions for anyone who is motivated enough to have a chance at acquiring wealth on their own through hard work, sacrifice and dedication. The Occupy ideology believes in bureaucratic socialism, a bigger more controlling government that makes decisions that affect more and more aspects of our lives. You see the Occupy movement clearly going after our free market system by demagoguing those who have acquired wealth and obstructed businesses which set a terrible precedent in America. Socialism is an ideology that is anti-American.
The occupy movement was hypocritical, ungrateful, undisciplined and had a belief system(what's yours is mine) that is contrary to a majority of Americans. The democratic/union-backed occupy movement flamed out for all the right reasons.
"There is a simple truth: You can not let people vote who have no skin in the game. They will vote themselves all kinds of benefits with no regard to how it is going to be paid. Eventually the Ponzi scheme collapses. "
Well said
But that does not mean that we can not get this country back from the liberals
When will it happen - when China and others stop buying OBAMA BONDS
Just like what is happening in Greece and Spain and Italy
--
Democracy is another word for the tyranny of the majority. While it sounds perfectly wonderful in theory, in practice the devil is in the details.
CarmineD
Unfortunately, even under our system, it's happening. The unproductive, irresponsible & parasitic class, under cover provided by "progressives," have been syphoning off more and more of the blood, sweat & hard work being produced by the working class and we can easily see the results today. Massive overspending creating huge deficits and a national debt so large it is incomprehensible to most. Soon, the piper will come to collect his due and the economic system will collapse upon itself and those unproductive, irresponsible parasites won't shoulder any responsibility for it and there will be, as in Greece, rioting, anarchy & blood in the streets.
I can't agree with the mantra that "capitalism works and socialism fails". In most cases socialism exists only because an experiment in unbridled capitalism failed first and socialism succeeds very well in many instances. The more extreme and despotic the capitalism the more extreme the socialist remedy (communism) that does not succeed.
Pure capitalism is basically an exploitive economic system. Picture 19th century England and the United States of the robber baron days and you get the idea as well as the reason labor unions formed and government gradually intervened to neutralize the more extreme effects of capitalism on society.
Most Americans do not begrudge those that accumulate wealth the way they do - through hard work, ingenuity, and persistence. However when they sense that wealth is being accumulated through political influence and at their expense they will speak up. Those that do not listen do so at their peril.
What would the Sun comment board be without another rightwinger whining about the mythical makers and takers?
Someone needs reminding about the recent housing collapse and the too-big-to-fail Wall Street banks. It's the little guy who got shafted, losing his job, home and retirement savings, while the well-healed and powerful got bailed out by taxpayers. But those who already have it all are never satisfied.
***
-- Wealthiest Americans Have 288 Times Net Worth of Typical Family --
http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/11/news/eco...
The wealth gap between the richest Americans and the typical family more than doubled over the past 50 years.
In 1962, the top 1% had 125 times the net worth of the median household. That shot up to 288 times by 2010, according to a new report by the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute.
That trend is happening for two reasons: Not only are the rich getting richer, but the middle class is also getting poorer.
Most Americans below the upper echelon have suffered a decline in wealth in recent decades. The median household saw its net worth drop to $57,000 in 2010, down from $73,000 in 1983. It would have been $119,000 had wealth grown equally across households.
The liberals are whining about the rich getting rich and the poor still poor
UNDER OBAMA
Every metric shows that Obama's policies are making this worst for the lower end
Why
NO JOBS
6.5 million fewer people working then in November 2007
Democrats took over Congress ( Reid and Pelosi) January 2007
This might be the most hilarious --and bizarre -- comment on this board. Ever:
"Democracy is another word for the tyranny of the majority. While it sounds perfectly wonderful in theory, in practice the devil is in the details." - CarmineD
Losing yet another presidential election seems to be bringing out the worst in those on the right. The latest spin is that more votes is soooo wrong, which I suppose means that the candidate with fewer votes should be the winner. Or something.
Un-frickin-believable.
Future: "Democrats took over Congress (Reid and Pelosi) January 2007."
Rewriting history does not change the actual events of history.
So let's review ACTUAL, REAL, UNSPUN history:
a) GW Bush was in charge when the economy collapsed and had been in office for seven years prior to the collapse. (Got it?)
b) The GOP had majority control of the House and Senate from Jan 2001 - Jan 2007. (Any questions so far?)
c) Incompetence and gross mismanagement are the hallmarks of the Bush administration's eight years. Which is why, today, his name is rarely mentioned by repub pundits and elected officials. It's as if W's very existence has been scrubbed from GOP memories.
""Democracy is another word for the tyranny of the majority. While it sounds perfectly wonderful in theory, in practice the devil is in the details." - CarmineD
When there is one party rule as the Democrats have you have tyranny
The Occupy movement failed to directly tie causation of one person's earnings with the earnings loss of another person. It's one reason why the movement didn't catch fire, their reasoning is just faulty on multiple levels. Anyone who has setup a pay scale at a company based on job classes knows this. Occupy needed to look up what a "Wage & Salary Survey" is. Pay is not set based on a pie of money, This person got $XX.XX so this other guy only gets $X.XX. That's not the real world at all. It's by job class and state/region which factors in cost of living. The socialist/egalitarian "salary greed argument" didn't pan out. They went after corporations next but that argument failed too because 98% of businesses are small businesses employing less than 100 people. Next, they'll go after small business owners calling them greedy. When one argument fails they go for an entity they feel might sound good in their argument.
Few realize that unions are driving these attacks on successful Americans and business. Is it any wonder union membership has been declining the last 35 years?
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/unio...
REPOST:
Michael Casler wrote,
"We could lessen their influence if we just instituted public financing of Congressional campaigns, Term Limits and Lobbying Reform." (Michael Casler)
This is an issue Michael Casler is dead-on!
This is the heart of our current problems in Washington and State politics.
Money corrupts. Therefore, the political system is corrupt.
Our system of government is complex! The frame work looks good, the words sounds good, but our system is inherently a corruptible system. More so, we are seeing an attack on the system from those who are not following what many in Americans call the America Spirit. Working hard, go to school, give back to the community, take care of your family and help your friends, serve in the arm forces, and be a responsible citizen, by being informed voter.
Carmine said:
"Democracy is another word for the tyranny of the majority. While it sounds perfectly wonderful in theory, in practice the devil is in the details."
Hmmmm......It appears that Carmine has finally showed all of us what he really believes & what he thinks about our constitutional democratic-republic.
In other words, Carmine hates democracy & believes that only the elite should rule. Of course, I guess Carmine considers himself part of the elite...
Carmine's beliefs are really no different that the beliefs held by a large majority of the Republican Party.
The GOP has decided that since they can not win back control of the government by popular vote, they will change the rules & "steal control" by keeping/discouraging large sections of the population from voting....
That's why they tried unsuccessfully to do away with early voting and why they made it tougher for many people to vote at all....
They're now working on changing the way electoral votes are distributed by the various states.
Carmine is no different that most right-wingers on most issues. He works long and hard to disguise his true feelings but as the old saying goes, "birds of a feather flock together."
"Even the British band Ten Years After had that figured out when they sang, "Tax the rich, feed the poor till there are no rich no more."
Miller -- excellent letter in so many ways! I've got a better ending, though -- Motorhead's "Eat the Rich"!
"The taker mentality you describe is the one that appeared in 2011, a year before elections, it was called the occupy movement."
RefNV -- hardly. It's been around as long as mankind discovered he was just a faster-evolving herd animal.
"Democracy is another word for the tyranny of the majority."
CarmineD -- excellent post. I'd say "mob rule" along with your tyranny description. One of the Federalist Papers clarified the difference between democracies and republics is protecting the rights of minorities from factions.
"In most cases socialism exists only because an experiment in unbridled capitalism failed first and socialism succeeds very well in many instances."
pisces -- another good post. It's like a pendulum, no? And history shows it seems to just keep swinging from one extreme to the other.
"It was the same with those old birds in Greece and Rome as it is now. . . . The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know." -- President Harry Truman on the insight "Plutarch's Lives" gave him
I enjoyed the article for 3 reasons:
1, Empowerment is a function of engagement, and both the theory and the logic behind the theory presented here are hilariously devoid of the spiraling dynamics of social creatures given information, opportunity and a threshold of creature comforts;
2, Our current culture survives by adapting. Our Consti-goddamn-tution embraces the values for such things as lap-tops and child car seats although one would be hard pressed to cite a single scintilla of direct reference from even the recent antiquity of our own white guys with slaves preaching the gospel of freedom while sequestering the lives and potentials of their 'homies' back at the plantation, homies bought with real American dollars made from hard work...
3. particularly effective employment of fluff and nuance in this article suggest a well-planned denigration of something which we all share - the ability to grow, develop and contribute IN SPITE of the chains forged with old money to suppress and restrict, to hinder, to hamstring and to halt the extension of decency and access to better lives which seem to scare the beJesus right out of the re-types, even though our society flourishes as much as it does because of inputs from the melting pot.
Mr. Frank talks about the unproductive, parasitic class. Is he referring to us? A bunch of old farts sitting behind computers all day long collecting pensions, Social Security, Medicare etc..
Carmine's hate for democracy and the letter written entitled "Democracies aren't built to last" reminds me of what Winston Churchill said about democracy.
Winnie said:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
The bitterness that has consumed those who sleep over on the right is not new to this country, but we have not seen it in such abundance since the 1950's.
During the 1950's conservatives thought they saw a communist hiding behind every single tree...
Of course, the GOP tried to convince the entire country that the Democrats had gotten soft on communism and was unwilling to rid the country of communists.
Also, the conservative hated FDR during his time in office, but when its all said & done, the present day conservatives will and have matched the hatred they had for FDR with their hatred toward Obama.
The Republicans are still in denial. They can not/will not accept the fact that they got their butt kicked in the most recent election...
A few of the Republicans know that for them to win back the support of a majority of the voters in the next election cycle, they must be willing to change their views on several issues...
A majority of the Republicans refuse to believe that, however....they simply want to change the rules of the game and force their out dated and sorry views on the entire country....
make that Mr. Fink.
Every economic system has its pluses and minuses. They all collapse in the end. Even the Roman Empire collapsed after about 500 years. American-style capitalism in particular has led to excessive consumption, overutilization of natural resources, and Third World wealth inequality. Price dislocations in areas such as medical care are the stuff of legend. Currently two thirds of the people in the United States are hard-pressed to come up with a couple thousand dollars get a couple days in the hospital can cost as much as a house.
Shortages of food, water and other natural resources will cause a dramatic shift in the way people live around the world. in places like England and France houses have sold for close to $1 billion. In California and New York houses have sold for in excess of $100 million. That doesn't sit well when most families in the world make about $50,000 a year or less.
Mr. Freeman is absolutely correct. Union membership has been declining. A fairly substantial portion of our workforce used to be union. Welfare has taken the place of unions in the sense that currently about half the country is getting some type of welfare stipend. About 35% of the workforce used to be union.
In 1985 there were 112,000 defined-benefit pension plans helping Americans live out their lives with some type of dignity. Currently there are 25,000. Many of our seniors are living out their lives in total poverty trying to get by on $1000 a month Social Security checks and a Medicare card.
You can either have education, excellent wages and benefits, or welfare. There is very little in between.
There's something fundamentally flawed about a society that increasingly uses wealth accumulation as a principal measure of success.
Greening a culture takes removing the deadwood and re-invigorating the mass. Like Zippert1 says: You can either have education, excellent wages and benefits, or welfare. There is very little in between.
What we are facing is rapid disolution of our middle class base by those RE-types whose wealth is derived by devaluing lives, by the Bain capital strategies of leverage, steal and dump. In the end the rich go offshore with the dime-on-the-dollar homes and futures of the children in the street.
The letter-writer is about right in his estimate of less than 300 years for old glory IMO, because the seed of revolution here is so fresh and warm with the blood, sweat and tears gone for nothing but the extravagant wealth of those with fleets of Boeings and servants on all their island homes. It's about knives and forks time, folksies!
Hmmmm...I wonder how Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland have done during the latest capitalist implosion?
Most of the Swedes and Nords, the Swiss, Dutch and Fins, and the Danes are some of the nicest people we see on Mykonos every summer.
Compared to the Italians and of course the Germans, it seems that the cooler the weather, the kinder the hearts, and to the point, the safer, happier and healthier... and significantly better off in terms of stamina and gratitude for what this little Greek isle in the Aegean offers them - paradise with warm waters.
The Germans of course still suffer the fate of the former invader and occupier. as you know, when the Greeks repeled the Italians and Musolini's Army turned tail and limped off and then the Germans plundered, raped and occupied, starved massacred and boasted of their occupations and public humiliation and ridicule of little Greece, it's hard to forget, ya know? And as a result of the timing shredded by the unexpected fierceness of Greek opposition, German invasion of russia froze up, rosie riveted and D-Day rolled in, Hanford hatched nukes and our little chance at self-rule reigned and shone briefly in the sun. Remember the sun?
We all drink from the same canteen...
Take it from a little Spring peeper.
He's peeping and peeping out loud.
He's peeping 'cause he made it through another Winter,
He's peepin and feelin proud.
If ya look around at where the starlight falls down,
You'll know just where you are.
You're livin on a tiny green speck
On a little blue ball
In a big black sky
All alone.
We gotta take good care
Of this little blue ball
'Cause it's the only home
We'll ever know.
Stan Slaughter appreciation Day..kiss a worm!
Ok, the real deal is so much better than failing memory's vergin of it... The freedoms in a democracy are the purvey of the spirit, and we have so anthro'ed the spirit of life, it seems we have LOST our way, our direct contact with the raw joy in life, as Wordsworth said 'Getting and spending, we have lost our powers, little we see in Nature is ours'.. so Stan's vergin..
Did you ever notice the old big dipper
And wonder what he dips all night
He's dippin out wisdom,dippin out love,
Dippin'out a way of life
And if you notice the ol' big dipper,
You're gonna' see all the other stars
And if you look around to where the light comes down,
You're gonna' see just where you are
Chorus:
You're gonna' see you're on a little green speck,
On a little blue ball in a big black sky all alone.
And you know we gotta take good care of that little blue ball
Cause you know it's the only home we'll ever know
Did you ever see a little wild flower
And wonder why she smiles so bright
She smiles because she's the bloom of love
In a world thats made just right
And each little leaf of every wild flower is a work of art you see
But if we mow'em all down and tear up the ground
We ain't livin' like we oughta' be
Chorus
Did you ever hear a little spring peeper
And wonder why he peeps so loud
He's happy 'cause he made it through another winter
He's smilin' and he's feelin' proud
And if we take good care of the things we share
The forest, and the water, and the sky
We can all be proud, we can laugh out loud
And that peeper he's tellin' you why
Jim Weber was 100% correct when he said:
"There's something fundamentally flawed about a society that increasingly uses wealth accumulation as a principal measure of success."
Thanks Jim! I agree with you....
I agree with Lobo and Mr. Weber. Too much greed fosters corruption. Corruption is a cancer that is eating us alive. Last week the GAO put out a report that puts the financial crisis tab at $22 trillion. That wipes out a substantial segment of Americans.
Millions that crave the dream and have nothing to show for years of hard work.
A note on the idea of "payers" vs "takers." Everyone uses the terms relative to individuals - those who pay for government and those who take from it. That's only part of the story. Now for the rest:
During the period 1990- 2009, a minority (21 of 50) states paid more money (payers) to the Federal government than they received. 3/4 of those states are liberal ("tax more and spend") states. The majority (29 of 50)of states took more from the Federal government (takers) than they received, 2/3 of these are conservative (slash spending/cut taxes) states.
Summary: Generally, those states whose elected Federal representatives argue the most vehemently about a need to cut government expenditures receive more of those expenditures than those willing to consider raising taxes to, at least in part, cover expenditures.
So Reno your saying the great state of Nevada is more or less a tumor on the rear end of the U.S.
Perhaps Sheldon and the kook brothers are bigger ones.
Very cool RenoRobert...
here's another way of looking at a similar issue...
http://www.examiner.com/play-video/video...
Gerald......
So when you republicans keep losing elections,
you cry about Democracy.
Democracy IS NOT the problem.
REPUBLICAN GREED IS THE PROBLEM.
Selfish, greedy republicans still don't get it.
That's ok because the majority of Americans will
keep voting greedy republicans OUT!
We don't want republicans running our country and
we don't need republicans running our country.
DEMOCRATS FOREVER!
LIVE BETTER/WORK UNION!
Carmine......
Your desperation is showing again.
You need to get over the huge republican loss.
Horrible, hatefull republicans will NEVER FOOL
Americans again.
The majority of Americans have finally learned
their lesson the hard way.
NEVER, EVER VOTE REPUBLICAN!
I would say Gerald is spot on. The famous line from Tocqueville Democracy in America "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's money." Sums it up rather well. Must nice to do things with other people's money, with no regard.
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland don't have the illegals problem. Norway Drills, Baby, Drills.
Rusty is right. Norway is actually the 8th largest oil country. AND the least leaky, fewest problems, lowest impact.
And the homes in Norway, Sweden, Denmark ALLL have R-40 walls, rich and poor alike. The hunger rate is minimal there while in Rusty's Cali, the rate is one hungry person every day for every 5 people. The leak rate is horrenous here and the waste rate is monstrous. So if you want Cali to become Sweden, you'd better look inside a bit, Rus. Huh?
"Carmine......
Your desperation is showing again.
You need to get over the huge republican loss." @ Teamster
I'll make you a deal. I will when you get over the union losses. Fair enough?
CarmineD
(former AFSCME Chief Steward)
This just in! Speaking of 'lasting'...and thank God..
http://homeenergypros.lbl.gov/profiles/b...
What's efficient got to do with it got to do with it?
Or completely adaptable?
Or WAAy better than we got now?
10,000 year warranty! unheard of.., jesus, who?
Norway?, huh??, hey Rus, did you catch that? ha
Carmine......
What union losses?
The TEAMSTERS UNION is the strongest union in the
United States.
As long as DEMOCRATS are in the White House,
unions will expand again.
You ain't seen nothing yet.
We're on a roll.
UNIONS FOREVER!
"What union losses?
The TEAMSTERS UNION is the strongest union in the
United States." @ Teamster
Surely you jest. The private unions are at an all time low in membership. Public unions are doing the best and that's because they are a monopoly. In case you missed the election results, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker crushed the public unions and the voters agreed with him. The Supreme Court struck down the two appointments by President Obama on January 3, 2012 to the NLRB [Just like I said to you it would: Null and Void]. Both were pro-union and their over 200 pro-union decisions will be thrown out. Right to work [read anti-union] states are beating out union states for jobs. Michigan voters dealt a major blow to unions by refusing to accept collective bargaining as a right. Ohio likely will do so next...And Congress is about to deliver another blow to unions by passing immigration reform with a Guest Worker program which President Obama thanks to Trumka has been against since 2005-2007. And the immigrants will water down the ranks of the union by taking jobs union employees don't want. Would you like me to continue or did I pierce your armor of denial?
CarmineD [former AFSCME Chief Steward no longer in denial]
Hookershaky (Michael Kelly)writng at 7:37 p.m. Sunday "quotes" me as alleging "So Reno your saying the great state of Nevada is more or less a tumor on the rear end of the U.S."
I have no IDEA where he got that impression! As a matter of fact, once again Nevada is in the minority - among those states that send more funds to Washington than they receive. Those "tumors" are composed the "red" states - as I clearly noted. And, as I defined the term, Nevada is NOT a red state (at least not right now...)
Carmine,
SCOTUS has NOT ruled on those appointments yet, it was the US District Court of Appeals that did so. The case is now waiting for SCOTUS to say whether or not it will hear it.
"Carmine,
SCOTUS has NOT ruled on those appointments yet, it was the US District Court of Appeals that did so. The case is now waiting for SCOTUS to say whether or not it will hear it." boftx
True and it may not for some time. Which complicates the NLRB further. Why? One of the 3 members is stepping down. Leaving the 2 bogus appointees. And the Board is still doing its thing in direct violation of the Appellate court's ruling and without a quorum of at least 3 of 5 members. The Supreme Court will have a field day with the Constitutional violations of the Board and the President's bogus appointments. I fully expect it [Supreme Court] to take the President to the water shed on the NLRB as pay back for the President's out of place scolding in the State of the Union in January 2009 to the Supreme Court Justices. Pay back is heck and don't think it [Supreme Court] doesn't keep score. It does.
CarmineD