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Sunday, Sept. 30, 2012 | 2:02 a.m.
Another view?
View more of the Las Vegas Sun's opinion section:
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In reference to the Sept. 25 letter, “Church assistance is redistribution,” the writer compared government-mandated redistribution of wealth with the charitable and voluntary giving that is a part of all churches.
He also said that he was surprised that this issue hasn’t been covered more in the media.
I think that is because even the media probably know that there is a big difference between making a conscious decision to give to the poor as you see fit and having the government take from you and distribute your money to whomever it may deem deserving.
Jesus said for us to give to the poor. He did not say that we should take from our neighbor and give to the poor. I think the writer is getting Jesus mixed up with Robin Hood.
Ah yes, the old "redistribution" canard!
Too bad for the GOP, the facts show GOP tax policies have long supported and imposed redistibution!
Like Redistribution Queen Ronald Reagan!
"When Ronald Reagan signed into law the Tax Reform Act of 1986, he boasted, "Millions of the working poor will be dropped from the tax rolls altogether, and families will get a long-overdue break with lower rates and an almost doubled personal exemption."
"Both the initial Reagan tax cuts of 1981 and indexing income taxes to inflation in 1985 had a similar effect."
"In the 1990s, the Republican-controlled Gingrich Congress passed a $500 per child tax credit that also wiped out the income tax liability of many low- to moderate-income households."
"George W. Bush expanded the child tax credit as president and also signed into law tax cuts that reduced the bottom marginal income tax rate from 15 percent to 10 percent. Both moves increased the percentage of people not paying income tax."
http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/17/the-re...
You guys keep telling us how awful redistribution is, yet your "conservative heroes" like Reagan and Gingrich enabled much of the redistribution found in our tax code. In order to portray themselves as anti-tax crusaders, they passed and signed bill after bill that lowered the tax burden.
And the gullible GOP, who are not screaming and crying about the "47%," voted these people into office OVER AND OVER.
Who's responsible for the "takers?" The GOP needs to find the nearest mirror to figure that one out.
Thanks for pointing it out Kevin.
There are no worst moochers than the filthy rich. They pay tax lawyers to find all they can so as not to pay taxes. They pay millions for lobbyist to protect their billions. They pay millions to get government infrastructure built around their realty holdings to increase their values. They make deals and buy government prime real estate at a bargain and make the government build the infrastructure then they build their exclusive homesites or businesses. Then they say they hate big government! Of course they do! When the government tries and reins in their greed!
They are the government moochers of the worst kind! Guess who moochers hate?
Individuals providing a helping hand to their family neighbors and friends in need
Or Robbin Obama takes your money and picks who he want to give it to based on who will vote for him
The idea that the Federal Government (Obama) will take from one group of Americans and give it to selected groups of people who will vote for him is wrong
The Lord giveth and the federal, state, and local governments taketh away.
CarmineD
99 confesses "the facts show GOP tax policies have long supported and imposed redistribution."
99 admits that reducing tax RATES for everyone works- it stimulus the economy and creates jobs.
But it is not redistribution
Let people keep what they earn is not redistribution
It seems to me that Jesus had some issues with the money changers too.
Great comments above by "Kevin" and "Nancy". Now, I'm going to add another perspective.
A typical sounding Republican Christian Conservative being, "Linda Caterine", the author of this letter to the editor, is once again playing the politics of Republican "control and conquer of the poor".
I was raised in a devout Republican family. Yes, on occasion, as a kid, I did steal from my parents to give to a minority friend of mine that was in an extremely bad way. It should be noted, I had asked my parents first, to help. Their response was, "We are in no way obligated to help a (N-word used)." After the first time getting caught stealing from my parents, my father gave me a good beating for this act. My father wanted to ensure that I understood his point, and would never do this again. Being hard-headed, I committed another act of stealing from my parents to give to my friend, who was still in great need. The second beating was much worse than the first. This time in my father's line of thinking, the beating would be severe enough to where there would be no doubt in my mind that what I was doing was wrong.
The house I grew up in, I appropriately termed, "The Home of Hell". There was a popular saying in this house, "Treat a (N-word used) like a captured animal; When not caging it, work it. When you decide to feed it, you shall have their loyalty."
Yes, these were the words coming from Republican Christian Conservatives. Maybe President Barack Obama is pursuing the redistribution path like Robin Hood. I couldn't blame him one damn bit. I would certainly recommend the poor to trust a government "hand-up" a heck of a lot more than I would ever trust a Republican charitable hand-out!
Only that they conducted business on the Church steps. The rich are the givers . Those who are the recipients of government largess are the moochers. Unless thay paid into the system. Romney gives 3 million a year in charitable donations plus 2 million in income taxes. Think of the moochers who receive his tax payments.Food stamps, cell phones, free housing,medicaid.Not all are moochers,but to call the rich moochers is sour grapes.
The rich in American are Rich because of the 99 percent of the people in American. "Don't bit the hand(s) that feeds you"
When you look into how the majority of American millionaires become millionaires, you find the assistance of the America government the main reason it is so. It is mainly from people like Donald Trump, Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, Michelle Bachman. This works both sides of the fence, like Shelley Berkley.
You will find the tax dollars, and federal assistance, laws passed, special help from the Federal government helping these people receive the millions they so proudly claim was gotten by them, on their own with no help from anyone. Without the assistance of the Federal government their would be no millionaires in America.
The power in America is in the hands of the 99 percent. We are beginning to understand how to use this power. It's called voting!
The letter writer is right on point. I agree.
Comment removed by moderator. - -
Their is also the quote from Jesus: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Matthew 22:21.
A person can find Bible quotes to fit just about any argument. The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not kill" but read Leviticus and you will discover who to 'spill the blood' of and for many reasons.
Americans waited for God to end slavery but that ended up to be a task for the Union military and the Northern Government. After the Civil War, we waited for God and Churches to bring education to those without finances but that ended up a task for the Government. We waited for God to create legal equality but that ended up a task for the National Guard and Government.
Government costs money. Taxes are not redistribution of the wealth. They are for payment of services that can directed in an organized manner. Taxes should be levied fairly and equally across the economic levels but today that fairness is gone.
The privileged elite receive enormous incomes simply because they are in control the money channels and rarely contribute any cash unless they benefit directly from the contribution. Enter the Lobbyist in Congress. We are still waiting for the Churches to send lobbyists to Congress to petition for more equality in taxes but that hasn't happened, and never will.
Europe waited over 1800 years for the Churches to feed the poor and bring Democracy to the land but they never did because Churches were part of the ruling elite. Churches slept with the Aristocrats, from whom they got most of their money, and only threw a few coins at the poor.
Neither Jesus or Robin Hood waited for Churches to act because the Churches take care of themselves first. They will throw a little bit of change around while taking pictures but the stained glass windows have priority.
"I think the writer is getting Jesus mixed up with Robin Hood."
Caterine -- at least history has a better chance of proving Robin Hood actually existed.
"A person can find Bible quotes to fit just about any argument. The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not kill" but read Leviticus and you will discover who to 'spill the blood' of and for many reasons."
SunJon -- excellent point. That book of jewish fairy tales is full of inconsistencies like that, while the religiously deluded continue to sing its praises with hymns and nod along with whatever the sermon says.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- attributed to Seneca the Younger (executed by Nero in 65 A.C.E.)
"Caterine -- at least history has a better chance of proving Robin Hood actually existed"
Sometimes ignorance is not bliss and ones hatred can truly blind oneself from seeing facts.
You see.......there are these people called history experts.
These people search for facts to support or disprove theories.
When a theory reaches consensus in this community then that most of the world accepts the theory as being probably true.
Most of the world could exclude you since you are for sure 6000% just hate religion with every being in your soul....oooooops. I mean mind.
There is a consenus in the history profession that there was a person named Jesus who was from Galilee. That person was baptised by John the Baptist and that person was crucified by the Romans. That person had a following.
I am sure your hatred will blind you from the fact that most history experts accept the above as probably being true. You know they research stuff like historic artificats written at the time that Jesus was alive.
Now....please proceed with some anti-religion rant.
Oh by the way.........Stalin, Mao, Kim Il-sung, Lenin and Pol Pot are all you kind of dudes. They hated religion and tried to purge it from their culture. At the same millions and millions of their own people suffered in death and misery.
So, according to Carmine the lord gives money. Now what was that quote about camels and eye's of needles again?
SUN JON,
Yes, the government ended slavery. Better put; Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation so he could be re-elected. However, the history of slavery throughout the world shows that it is not a product of free market voluntary exchange, but that it has usually been sanctioned and subsidized through the use of force. That is, kingdoms, governments, etc.
**FAIL**
=============================
"Government costs money. Taxes are not redistribution of the wealth."
No, they are the destruction of wealth.
"They are for payment of services that can directed in an organized manner."
You didn't mention "efficient" or "cost effective"
**FAIL**
============================
"Europe waited over 1800 years for the Churches to feed the poor and bring Democracy to the land but they never did because Churches were part of the ruling elite."
It is the existence of private property and the free market that has allowed the poor to feed themselves, and lift more up out of poverty than any tax-funded gov't program.
**FAIL**
============================
"Neither Jesus or Robin Hood waited for Churches to act because the Churches take care of themselves first."
It is a proven fact that churches and charitable contribution have had better success helping the needy to help themselves and be productive members of society instead of merely sending them a check every month.
**FAIL**
Buy gaining all those tax avoidance schemes and tax havens, it seems the wealthy are the thieves.
It seems that with increasing profits and stagnation of wages, that businesses are the thieves.
It seems the banking, investment, and insurance industries casinos are the thieves.
Government programs are not redistribution, they are the result created by need, resulting from the thieves injustices.
"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"- Jesus of Nazareth.
Government Redistribution Predates Christianity:
Government Redistribution Is Found In Romans:140 BC
Roman politicians devised a plan in 140 B.C.E. to win the votes of these new citizens: giving out cheap food and entertainment, "bread and circuses", would be the most effective way to rise to power.
(source Wikipedia)
It's common knowledge that both the church and government engage in deception in order to separate citizens from their cash.
The government mishandles money because there are a lot of fools in charge of it. That we understand. But I am having trouble understanding why the church always needs new money. Don't they have the supreme money manager behind them? Isn't God omnipotent? Can't Jesus just make the church's return on investments double every year?
I don't know, but it seems more reasonable to have to give the money to the government and let them redistribute it than it does to voluntarily give it to an unregulated and un-taxed religious groups that are using collections to get more and more involved in politics.
In the end the church is redistributing income from it's donors (rich and poor) who think their money is going towards the needy, when in fact part of it is going towards conservative organizations in order to gain more influence in government. Don't forget what it was like when the church was in control.
Perhaps someday our taxes will include a 10% add on for a subsidy of religious institutions.
Just needs the "right" Representatives, President, and Justices in the Supreme Court in power for support of a new religious fascism.
"So, according to Carmine the lord gives money. Now what was that quote about camels and eye's of needles again?"
Mr. Schafer:
What is the quote? Tell us and your interpretation too.
Yes, God grants all our talents, treasures and time and judges us on how we use them to benefit ourselves and others. Not how the government uses them.
CarmineD
"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Matthew 22:21.
What did Jesus' mean by this ambiguous answer to the question, "Should we pay Caesar's tax?" Obviously, to answer the question we must know what Jesus believed belongs to God and what to Caesar, respectively? Since he repeatedly justified his ministry on the authority of sacred Jewish Scripture, we may rest assured that he was guided by Scripture in this regard as well. And Scripture declares in at least five places, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." (Psalm 24:1), which leaves nothing for poor old Caesar, and nothing is what Jesus urged his listeners to give in tax or tribute to that murdering, thieving emperor, who was usurping his Father's prerogative as law maker to humankind.
Hmmmmmm....It appears that private pebble is attempting to hit KillerB over the head several times with his Bible!
Actually, I thought the quotes used by KillerB were right on...
One of the better one's being:
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -- attributed to Seneca the Young
I find it interesting what Charles Kingsley, Canon of the Church of England, wrote. He wrote:
"We have used the Bible as if it were a mere special constable's hand book, an opium dose for keeping beasts of burden patient while they were being overloaded, a mere book to keep the poor in order."
Hmmmmm....sounds like a Republican plan used to keep their extreme right-winger religious nuts in line and marching in lock-step toward stupidity...
Don't confuse Jesus with someone who would carry a gun and vote Republican!!
I find it fascinating that people who consider themselves intelligent believe in an invisible, magical power/spiritual dictator that gives them abilities and adjudicates them without presenting any evidence whatsoever. It just seems so primitive and illogical and delusional that I find it difficult to take any of their advice or opinions seriously. But I remain convinced that the mean well.
To Ms. Caterine: I did not see the phrase "government-mandated redistribution of wealth" in the original article. Can you describe what policy/policies you are referring to in order to clarify you position? I also cannot find one specific policy that states the intent to "redistribute wealth."
http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/inde...
"All Americans are facing tough times, with many working two jobs just to make ends meet and more families turning to the government for financial assistance. From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Multi-millionaires are even receiving government checks for not working.
"This welfare for the well-off -- costing billions of dollars a year -- is being paid for with the taxes of the less fortunate, many who are working two jobs just to make ends meet, and IOUs to be paid off by future generations. We should never demonize those who are successful. Nor should we pamper them with unnecessary welfare to create an appearance everyone is benefiting from federal programs," Dr. Coburn said.
These billions of dollars for millionaires include $74 million of unemployment checks, $316 million in farm subsidies, $89 million for preservation of ranches and estates, $9 billion of retirement checks, $75.6 million in residential energy tax credits, and $7.5 million to compensate for damages caused by emergencies to property that should have been insured. All and all, over $9.5 billion in government benefits have been paid to millionaires since 2003. Additionally, millionaires borrowed $16 million in government backed education loans to attend college. On average, each year, this report found that millionaires enjoy benefits from tax giveaways and federal grant programs totaling $30 billion. As a result, almost 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009.
Linda......
If Jesus were here today, he would be walking with
our great PRESIDENT OBAMA!
Republicans are heartless and greedy and don't
have a clue of what Jesus stood for.
Jesus said that we will be judged by how we treat
the poor.
Republicans only care about the greedy rich.
NEVER VOTE REPUBLICAN!
Mr. Schaffer:
You quoted St. Matthew. Here is another excerpt from St. Matthew: Chapter 18, Verses 1-5 and 10:
The disciples approached Jesus and said,
"Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?"
He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said,
"Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children,
you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Whoever humbles himself like this child
is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.
And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones,
for I say to you that their angels in heaven
always look upon the face of my heavenly Father."
CarmineD
Carmine, I defend your right to believe in your religion. However, I don't want to subsidize it with my taxes. Because your church doesn't pay taxes, I have to pay more. We need to tax churches and other religious institutions. If you believe in them, pony up a little more...I'm sick of carrying the load for your nonsensical beliefs.
teamster....
Great post! You're 100% correct!
I'm looking forward to having President Obama as my president for another four years!
Romney has not a clue and would be another George W Bush. We all know where that got us, don't we?
BChap,
Your story would indeed be sad if it wasn't for you missing the lesson entirely. I'm sure your father's intent was to teach you NOT TO STEAL! If you wanted to give so badly you should have mowed the lawn or done something to show your willingness to earn the money you wanted to graciously hand over to your needy friend. But no, you expected them to just hand over their earnings for their child to determine where it was needed. Then what? You take credit for "giving." How entitled of you. Your parent's are only guilty of their misguided attempt to teach you one of the most basic commandments. Shame on you!