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Thursday, Nov. 15, 2012 | 2:02 a.m.
Another view?
View more of the Las Vegas Sun's opinion section:
• Editorials - the Sun's viewpoint.
• Columnists - local and syndicated writers.
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Have your own opinion? Write a letter to the editor.
After all that was said and done, Republican politicians must think about this fact — there are more poor people in America than rich. There are more people who are disenfranchised than there are favored.
Do not look down on them. Do not patronize them. Do not insult their intelligence with pretense. Above all, do not marginalize them.
They have power.
Nancy Navarro Agustin,
You are not poor. According to transparentnevada.com, you make as a teacher $82,571.20 in total pay & benefits. Each party has supporters among all income levels. Obama edged Romney among certain ethnic groups and single women in battleground states. Additionally, the long primary hurt the Republican candidate which allowed democratic PACS ample time to run negative ads well in advance of the general election. Despite this, Republicans increased their share of the presidential vote among many major demographic groups. Compared with 2008, they made significant gains among men (four percentage points), whites (four points), younger voters (six points), white Catholics (seven points) and Jews (nine points). Mr. Romney also carried the independent vote 50% to 45%. Four years ago, independents voted for Mr. Obama 52% to 44%. Romney proved unable to exploit Mr. Obama's biggest weakness: the economy. Seventy-six percent of exit-poll respondents rated the national economy "poor" or only "fair," and just 25% said their finances were better off than four years ago. Yet Obama and Romney were both equally viewed as sufficient enough to navigate economic headwinds which is surprising because Obama has presided over the weakest economic recovery out of the last 10. The democrats did a good job of diverting attention away from the economy and this LVS letter is yet another example of it. There are enough economic issues we could discuss here but this letter writer chose to write a divisive letter about rich vs poor when she's not even considered poor herself. Our economy needs all income levels to work, spend or invest and we need to discuss how we best we can achieve this goal, not political divisiveness.
http://www.transparentnevada.com/
Some Domocrats are just plain snide people
Some Democrats call their opposition felons, murders, unpatriotic
Some Democrats practice identity politics
Some Democrats play class warfare with government largess
So now Nancy is claiming that that others are patronizing them and insulting their intelligence with pretense
Get over yourself Nancy
It's politically fashionable to identify with the poor. Obama does it all the time. He champions the poor and middle class and demonizes the rich and well to do. Of course, those who swoon over everything Obama do the exact same. Just remember, the same day we learned 4 American heroes were murdered in Benghazi, Libya, Obama saw fit to hit the campaign trail to pick up big dollar contributions from his rich liberal fund raisers for his reelection. His total sum of wisdom on the tragedy while campaigning for reelection: "We hit a bump in the road."
CarmineD
There is no sense in attacking anyone who is simply stating the obvious. It's unbecoming to grown men/women.
You are obsessed with numbers, so let's look at them:
Immigration - 71% of Hispanic vote
Women - 55%
Unmarried and young single women - 67%. (This group comprised 23% of the electorate. They thought their issues are more important than the economy!).
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/nov...
Republicans must reassess their politics to stay relevant. If they continue with this attitude the political balance will be lost.
If living in your own world is your secret to happiness, congratulations!
Nancy - Now you've done it! Your letter set off the class warfare alarm at refNV's house before 3AM.
The Bush tax cuts bestowed class welfare on the top income earners. And while the Republicans liken these folks to the goose that laid the golden egg, they have done a miserable job in their alleged roles as "job creators". After ten tax years we know they are ineffective at creating jobs, but accomplished at adding to the national debt.
The next few weeks will give us a clear indication of how far the Republicans will go to protect the 2% and where the 98% stand on the GOP priority list.
$250,000 per year is not a millionaire and billionaire. It's middle class in the current times. And if Obama and his minnows can't appreciate that fact, thy're not as smart as they think they are.
CarmineD
Freeman:
Yeah, it wasa great year for Republicanism. I hope that you have more election days like last week's.
What should have been a cakewalk turned out to be a great day for democratic voters. This is all due to people like you and future and Casler and DiFazio - Americans just don't like the lack of knowledge and respect you folks show your neighbors.
You lost because your model is being a jerk towards people who you oppose politically. You guys are very good at being jerks. Lousy at being good people.
Mr. Weber I submit that the next few weeks will define the vote.
Stock market down, down, down.
No news,especially in the Sun Newspaper about Benghazi.
No news in the Sun Newspaper about the Petraeous scandle.
(These two alone have national security implications and this biased newspaper doesn't report about it.
More corporate laypffs.
Increased taxes.
Yes you're correct the next few weeks will tell a tale.
Jim,
Obama's 2009 stimulus trickle-down government spending did not lower our unemployment rate to under 6% as promised by Obama's economists. The house already voted on Obama's class warfare tax plan this year and it failed with 20 democrats voting against it. Obama sent congress unserious budgets in 2011 & 2012 which did not get one democratic vote. Put plainly, Obama's solutions aren't acceptable solutions to even his own party and aren't solutions at all. At max, the extra tax paid by top wage earners will net less than 60 billion a year which doesn't appreciably reduce our $1.1 trillion(1,100 billion) dollar debt.
Obama lacks Democratic support for his class warfare tax plan.
There continues to be much hatred expressed toward the 'wealthy' and much skepticism about their role as 'job creators'.
The gap between the 'wealthy' and the middle class has grown and statistics show that...and it would be good and helpful if we could lessen that gap.
That said, I have worked for several private companies and all of them were started by and owned and operated by people who had a good deal more wealth than I did or do.
Unless you work for the government, most of the jobs that exist in the private sector do seem to be created and maintained by people who have wealth.
If the wealthy don't create jobs, where is it that Nancy Agustin, Jim Weber and others on the Progressive side of things think jobs come from and where should they come from?
Michael
Jeff,
I understand you disagree with me, but please be careful how you classify me. I have never been a jerk to people who I disagree with, unless your definition of 'jerk' is someone who has the temerity to disagree with you.
Michael
If the wealthy don't create jobs, where is it that Nancy Agustin, Jim Weber and others on the Progressive side of things think jobs come from and where should they come from?
Interesting question Michael but rest assured they have no answer. My companies started from me taking a second on my home. I guess thats where these two think that jobs come from. Other peoples money and risk. But oh I forgot, "I didn't build that"
"This is all due to people like you and future and Casler and DiFazio - Americans just don't like the lack of knowledge and respect you folks show your neighbors."
More hate talk from the supposed party of tolerance and transparency. You accuse those who disagree with you of the exact failings you eminate yourself. I call it the joy of hate by the supposed democratic tolerant. No wonder GOP won the House the last 8 of 10 elections since 1992.
CarmineD
The "raise tax rates on top wage earners" was an Obama political strategy to get the Nancy Agustins and Jim Webers of the world to vote for him but the tax warfare plan doesn't solve any problems. The revenue collected from such a tax plan would collect $60 billion or less against the backdrop of our yearly $1.1 trillion(1,100 billion) deficit. That's akin to putting 2 lbs of air into a flat tire requiring 38 lbs of air. Jim and Nancy, back Obama's class warfare tax plan all you want but it solves nothing.
"At max, the extra tax paid by top wage earners will net less than 60 billion a year which doesn't appreciably reduce our $1.1 trillion(1,100 billion) dollar debt."
Since when is $60 billion chump change? I suppose that makes $440 million for PBS really trivial.
For the umpteenth and, hopefully final time, I have NEVER NEVER NEVER even intimated that increasing taxes on the wealthiest was close to a complete solution to the debt problem. It is a worthwhile beginning though. It not only raises revenue, it means that we don't need to borrow $60 billion to pay for upper class welfare.
Casler:
I will agree you are the most likable and respectful of that group. But you still are with those people.
CBO [Congrssional Budget Office] says tax receipts for fiscal year ended September 30, 2012 [despite extending Bush era tax cuts and the putrid economic growth] went up to $2.5 Trillion. President Obama and his minnows don't want us to know this so he can push through his anti-rich tax hikes. Even individual tax payments [not businesses] are up $233 Billion over the last two years or 26 percent. Won't hear that from President Obama and his democratic minnows. Fact check it.
CarmineD
"But you still are with those people."
Ah the joy of hate. "those" people. Class warfare par excellence.
CarmineD
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Jim Weber,
I agree. Obama's tax warfare plan solves nothing. The plan even lacks democratic support in the house. It's high time to start talking about solutions in Washington DC.
Michael Casler States:
....."There continues to be much hatred expressed toward the 'wealthy' and much skepticism about their role as 'job creators'.
I say:
We just had 17 billionaires try to buy the White House and congress, if you dispute that, this conversation is over. If you agree, do you agree it cost the republican brand name? What is your solution to the republican party not kowtowing to big business?
.....Michael again:
The gap between the 'wealthy' and the middle class has grown and statistics show that...and it would be good and helpful if we could lessen that gap.
I say:
See how you swept past that and moved onto empathy for the "wealthy guy"? We lessen the gap by increasing tariffs from the current average of 2% to something nearer the historical averages of 25-30%. We tax Paris Hiltons sitting by the pool income at a rate higher than working people pay, while offering Ms. Hilton tax credits for actual American jobs she is an ACTIVE and "Butt On The Line" investor in. The tax credits go up as her salaries paid employees, per employee unit rises.
.....Michael again:
That said, I have worked for several private companies and all of them were started by and owned and operated by people who had a good deal more wealth than I did or do.
I say:
This seems to not need comment.
.....Michael again:
Unless you work for the government, most of the jobs that exist in the private sector do seem to be created and maintained by people who have wealth.
I say:
Duh...
......Michael again:
If the wealthy don't create jobs, where is it that Nancy Agustin, Jim Weber and others on the Progressive side of things think jobs come from and where should they come from?
I say:
Not all job creators are wealthy, many BECOME wealthy, a lot are just starting out. I say, if the wealthy don't create jobs they have decided to sit out the season and have retired from the fight. If they sit on their money, they should be taxed at a rate higher than working Americans, if they want to be participants in the American dream, tax break them into a zero percent tax bracket if it is real business happening inside these 50 United States and let them prosper, but only if we ALL benefit.
If this happens government jobs will rebound also.
Gee, the leftists state the obvious, again. Name me one country on Planet Earth where the rich out number the "poor." What a sad excuse for playing the "divide & conquer" card. Once again, I see why, with leftist teachers, the public school system is such a failure. Instead of "education," these folks practice "indoctrination."
Very important words of wisdom, Ms. Agustin.
And as you can see from some of the commenters, your article has indeed fell on deaf ears.
They don't learn. And it really looks like they will never learn.
It's up to us to teach them.
When the next election comes.
The Tea/Republican Party is closer to going the way of the dinosaurs. Extinction.
Funny thing is they are doing it themselves, but love to point fingers always elsewhere.
Comment removed by moderator. Personal Attack
Nancy,
Your right in presenting your numbers to counter the argument. Very good post.
Now that the "votes" are in, and all the campaigning is done, let us hope our American Lawmakers immediately get to work and get the job done this time around. They all have run out of chances to prove to the public their commitment and meddle.
The American public can no longer tolerate the political bickering, obstruction, and gridlock that has become the operating standard in past decades. The United States of America needs to have a balanced budget passed, needs the immigration process streamlined (allow QUALIFIED immigrants and eliminate the excessive application processing time), and address those banksters and Wall Street gamers who crashed our economy. Many readers could likely add to this list of what needs to be "PRIORITY" legislation.
Have to say that it is refreshing to read the paper and finding some now elected political candidates talking about it(revisiting their official positions) and beginning to voice their commitment towards addressing these issues. We'll all see how our "Votes are worth more than money". Keep it coming!
Blessings and Peace,
Star
Freeman -
You say "The plan even lacks democratic support in the house" because 20 out of 190 democrats voted against it? That's a stretchy spin, even for you.
Being poor has become a career choice under Obama. You really have the option of not working at all once you become an adult. SSDI, foodstamps, subsidized housing, etc. You can even get cigarettes, beer and lapdances on your EBT card. And then of course you can start procreating. What a country!
Especially if you enjoy watching it's character crumble.
Jeff,
I have and do advocate for public financing of campaigns. Both parties are a slave to the money of powerful interests. It's not just the R's.
We have a thriving export economy here in America. What do you think would happen to that if we imposed a 30 % tariff on imports?
I favor tax simplification or a flat tax. Our government uses the tax code to manipulate behavior, which is wrong and often counter productive.
I'm not a fan of either party because both are parties of big government.
The President was re-elected so let's watch what happens. He will probably get many of the tax increases he wants. I doubt if you'll see any tariffs imposed or your ideas about using taxes to try to force the wealthy to invest in businesses.
This will be because although you seem to think that only one party is owned by millionaires and billionaires and other evil powerful interests, the truth is that they own both parties.... because we don't remove private money from campaigns.
The people that control both parties and the entire Congress will see to it that 'most' of what would help most of us, but would disadvantage them, will not come to pass, or if it does, they will re-double what will be successful efforts to blunt any negative effects on them.
This is exactly the reason I am really looking into leaving this country. I voted for Romney, with very little expectation that he could or would change the course of things. I have no faith President Obama will or could change course either.
Unless we get the money out of politics, we leave our elected officials at the mercy of those with the money and the lobbyists.
Michael
Jim Weber wrote "You(Freeman) say "The plan even lacks democratic support in the house" because 20 out of 190 democrats voted against it? That's a stretchy spin, even for you.
Jim, let me ask you. Can Obama's class warfare tax plan pass without the 20 democratic votes in the house? The answer is "no". You're being naive Jim.
Michael asks:
"We have a thriving export economy here in America. What do you think would happen to that if we imposed a 30 % tariff on imports?"
I say:
It would need to be a gradual increase. I think that unique products would be fine, some trade wars would occur for sure, but the American worker needs to be embraced as a first choice of employment by American companies, I do not want our neighbors competing with people making 50 cents an hour. I want the people making 50 cents an hour to have to make a local economy for themselves, not implode our economy.
Where are you thinkin about moving to? Norway would be a good fit for you socially, though you may not like the socialistic nature of their government. Eastern Europe would be give you the ability to live in luxury with the standard of living disparity...
How is anyone supposed to have the slightest amount of respect for any idiot who refers to all democrats as little fish? This is the garbage that worked in our federal government under the Bush administration.
Michael Casler says,
"This is exactly the reason I am really looking into leaving this country. I voted for Romney, with very little expectation that he could or would change the course of things. I have no faith President Obama will or could change course either." (Posted by Michael Casler)
Mr. Casler, you just witnessed a majority of America over big money and vote a candidate who advocated throughout the campaign of shared sacrifice. President Obama main theme, extend the Bush Tax Cuts and negoicate tax increase on 2% of Americans who are doing really well. How can say, your quitting, leaving the Country? That how America works. Yes, big money will lobby hard to protect their interest. You must do the same with your vote and your energy to have the change you want. There is much to be done, and it is very clear the America People rejected Mitt Romney to get it done, and selected Barack Obama as the leader of America to get it done. It's clear, it's simple.
So you now want to quit because your candidate did not win! Now, that's not being an American. That is just plain exercising your freedom of choice, a freedom you will not find in many other countries!
You sound like you have abandon your positions?
Now, would you be saying the same thing if Mitt Romney won the election? Michael, Michael, Michael.
Just to be clear, put your faith in God and your trust in Man. Maybe this will help you in making important decisions, and you won't be disappointed in candidates like Mitt Romney.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/10/pf/emerg...
The baloney is flying today. Over 60% of Americans couldn't afford a $1000 emergency expense.
In terms of wealth distribution were running neck and neck with Turkey and Chile. It's absolutely dismal. 92% of financial assets in this country are controlled by a tiny fraction of the population.
$250,000 a year is middle-class? It's the income of five working families or nearly 10 working women. Give me a break!
Families that earn $250,000 a year may think they are middle-class, they need to talk to a single mom that is working the cash register at Walmart for nine bucks an hour.
Costs are so astronomically high in the aggregate for things like housing, medical care and education people no longer have a path to financial independence.
Nearly half of businesses fail within five years. Close to 90% fail within 10 years. Most businesses can NOT afford to pay people what they need to achieve financial independence and half the people in this country work for employer businesses. Low wages combined with massive business failures and high costs have eliminated the path for independence.
People under 35 are accumulating almost no wealth and are going to be completely dependent on programs like Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
The sick are getting financially destroyed by medical costs and the young are getting killed by ridiculous education costs. Between the two were on the brink of becoming the biggest welfare state in history of mankind.
Yeah...money is still in play.
It is the taxpayer money being taken from the hard working Americans and given to the those that have chosed to party or be lazy and be on the government dole.
That group is Obama's core base.
http://www.healthkicker.com/765715057/1-...
People in this country are so damn poor 100 million people can no longer afford dental care. The letter writer doesn't have to worry about Republicans looking down to poor people. The Republican states are some of the states with the lousiest wages and the worst welfare statistics. Poor people in those states make up a massive voting block.
Gerry wrote "the young are getting killed by ridiculous education costs."
I agree but there are ways to cut college costs. I went to a community college my first two years then to the University of Texas my last two years.
community colleges are a cost saver to those on a budget.
I noticed this article a few weeks ago titled "Stephen Trachtenberg Is Not Sorry". He is the ex-president of George Washington University. An interesting perspective on why tuition costs have increased so dramatically over the years at some universities.
Here is an excerpt:
"Since Trachtenberg took over in 1988, he had boosted the school's endowment from $250 million to $1 billion and built many state-of-the-art facilities, such as computer and research labs. The profusion of comforts didn't just stimulate students' minds; it also fulfilled their every whim--a change that drew a more selective, more intelligent group of applicants and sent the admission rate plummeting from 75% to 37%. "It was a very soothing, very beautiful experience and gave me a great sense of satisfaction about my tenure as president," Trachtenberg wrote in his memoir, Big Man on Campus.
Trachtenberg's students funded this triumph. When he became president, they paid $25,000 (in today's dollars) in tuition, room, and board to attend; by the time he retired, they paid $51,000. Trachtenberg made George Washington the most expensive school in the nation. The burst of cash powered his agenda, but the freshmen who borrowed to enroll--46 percent of the class--during his final year graduated with an average of $28,000 of debt.
Trachtenberg also set a trend that other colleges--first his private competitors, then universities across the country--felt compelled to follow. Today, George Washington is only the 21st most expensive school, and the average American student accumulates $24,300 of debt earning her diploma. Collectively, Americans hold more student-loan debt than credit-card debt, and graduates enter a world where more than half of them are jobless or underemployed.
A recession requires austerity, and Trachtenberg concedes that the charge-more/spend-more model cannot continue in today's economy. "I don't think the current model can go on," he says, pointing out that schools can't spend when their cash reserves run low."
http://www.nationaljournal.com/features/...
Rock... Much of the money is not being taken from hard-working Americans. It's being printed by the "Bureau of Engraving and Printing". That's what deficit spending is all about. Keeping taxes low and meeting obligations by printing money.
Ref.. Neither the education model or the medical model are going to survive. I went to UCLA in the 1970s and paid about $600 a quarter. It's currently about $52,000 a year. Ridiculous!
Irrespective of what happens in the future there are currently $900 billion in outstanding student loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court. They can only be discharged through payment or death. This is more than the nation's outstanding credit card debt.
You're struggling through a very tragic illness. You're getting a sad taste of what surgery, chemotherapy and radiation cost. The whole thing is ludicrous.
Gerry,
I thought it was interesting how many universities sell "prestige" and student "comforts" versus keeping costs reasonable for students who want an education without accumulating large amounts of debt.
By the way, when you look at those states with the lowest median incomes many are also the lowest cost of living states.
Jeff and LongtimeVegan,
Neither of you addressed my contention that both parties and our entire political process are at the mercy of powerful interests with money and that the system is totally corrupted by money and self interest.
I no longer believe that we can return to what we once were as long as our elected officials have to have the money these powerful people and groups with lobbyists make available to obtain and hold public office.
You two, and many, many others, on both sides, hold to what I consider the foolish view, that one of the parties is somehow on our side and is mostly immune to the corrupted political process. I operate under no such illusions anymore.
I never have a problem with how people vote, because if you want to be involved and you care, you have to vote for someone and support one of the major parties.
However, if you are not 'pounding' your party and any elected person you support to implement public financing of campaigns, Congressional term limits, allow 3rd parties into the debates and political process, and change the internal rules of Congress, among other things, then you are supporting the totally corrupted process we have.
Americans don't understand our system...the way it really works.
Big, monied, powerful interests of all kinds, with their paid lobbyists, contribute to the national committees of both parties in exchange for what they want legislatively. This is communicated to the leaders in both Houses of Congress in both parties who in turn communicate this to their members in the Senate and House as to how they expect their members to vote on legislation and what legislation to even bring up.
Bucking the leadership and what it tells you to do will bring a lack of campaign cash and support and in a worst case, a primary challenger. Is it really any wonder that the powerful get more powerful, the rich get richer and the middle class suffers?
You two, as well as most Americans, don't believe what I just said above and somehow (I don't know how) believe that this system only affects R's or D's respectively. Sorry, but that is wrong. It affects and corrupts and it does it completely.
I can stay here and I may. I have enough money to survive, but the question is... how WELL will I be able to survive here on the path we are on. Perhaps I can survive BETTER in Belize or somewhere similar. I am looking.
I'll be totally honest here. I supported the R's and Romney with next to no belief his election would make a real difference, but hoping it might. You support President Obama and the D's with a BIG believe that they are on your side and are immune to the corrupted political and governing process.
Good luck to you and everyone else in that belief...
Michael
Carmine thinks $250,000 a year in income is middle class.
http://globalrichlist.com/
Your rich list position = 107,565
You are the 107,565 richest person in the world! You're in the TOP 0.001%
richest people in the world!
Ms. Nancy Augustin,
Great letter and right on point, the people have spoken. I have little doubt, although they most likely wouldn't admit it, many Republicans voted for President Obama because of the radical stance Romney, Ryan and other candidates took. The GOP went off the deep end back in September of 2008 and continue on the road of self destruction. Even today many are saying Obama stole the election because they can't deal with reality, which is why it will take them years to recover. Using Marco Rubio as a token candidate in 2016 will not solve they way they perceive others in this country.
Michael Casler
With all due respect, I feel your myriad of assumptions about how I feel and how I think to be your Achilles heel. It shows me a man of fairly decent intelligence getting 90% of everything correct, but the 10% you miss skews the results so bad as to render you penny-wise and pound foolish.
If you could read past your bias you would know I abhor both political parties but think the republicans are about four times as likely to need to modify their positions as the democrats are.
I have no rose coloured glasses and know that any president has things whispered in their ears upon being elected that change them.
I know how money has corrupted things.
I also know that the place it will ultimately get cleaned up is the SCOTUS. It is the primary reason that I, like Bernie Saunders, currently hang with the democrats.
That is the primary reason I give you so little respect. You KNEW it would get worse (the SCOTUS) under Romney and you voted for him anyway.
You are an enabler, just as guilty as the driver of the republican car that is not concerned with ALL of America.
Sure the dems are messed up too, but at least they will talk, have you read what the republicans are STILL saying?
If you walk away from them, they will notice. If you stay they will continue.
Truth be told by me too, I didn't donate a dime until the day after election day this time. Then I gave to those who earned it.
Jeff,
You still think I am critical of you because you voted for and supported the D's. That's not the case. I am critical of everyone, including myself, no matter who we voted for or support.
I just flat out disagree with you that the R's are 4 times as likely to need to modify their positions as D's are.
This country cannot continue to exist as we have known it without MAJOR changes to how we are governed. If we don't do as much as is possible to remove the money from politics, nothing that really matters will change. Neither party even discusses that.
I care about wealth disparity, shrinking middle class, taxes, spending and have opinions about abortion, gays, and other social issues, but without the changes I spoke of, none of it matters.
Our political and governing system has been hijacked and corrupted. Until we put an end to that, it doesn't matter much which party is the lesser of two evils.
I am being more and more convinced that until a 3rd party comes along that is viable, we are stuck with this corrupted system.
Take Ron Paul or Ross Perot as examples. Both say and said things many Americans can agree with that are quite far away from ANYTHING we even hear from the two main parties. Unfortunately, they also espoused a few views that were so far out of the mainstream and when you combine that with the reality that 3rd parties have little chance of doing anything except stealing votes form R's or D's, they stand no chance.
R's or D's in control, we continue to head toward the place where the standard of living of the average American will decline to a point where a majority will demand radical change.
You and I and many others can keep voting R or D and nothing that needs to change will change. Of that I am convinced.
Michael
It would need to be a gradual increase. I think that unique products would be fine, some trade wars would occur for sure, but the American worker needs to be embraced as a first choice of employment by American companies, I do not want our neighbors competing with people making 50 cents an hour. I want the people making 50 cents an hour to have to make a local economy for themselves, not implode our economy.
@Jeff: Agreed very astute post.
Nancy,
That was a great post,yes the voter's have spoken.The cry babies will cry all the way into the midterm elections.They will continue to cry after they lose again in 2014.The Republican party has lost it's way and is just grasping at straws for a solution or some kind of fix.
There are a lot of Republicans who have switched over and voted for the re-election of Pres.Obama. This is due in part to how the party has changed and has shown it's true colors.Keep up with the good posts that you bring to us to read and comment on.
Jeff,
Let me add this. SCOTUS is not going to fix things, even if it was 100 % Progressive Democrats. Even if you reverse Citizens United, you just take a system that was 100 % corrupted by money and self interest and you reduce that to 99 %.
SCOTUS cannot decree public financing of elections. Only Congress can do that and they and the parties are not about to. Same for term limits. Same for rules in Congress that allow a small minority to wield enough power to stop the machinery. Same for lobbying reform.
Go back to basic US government study in high school. The three branches are separate. The most corrupted branch is the legislative (Congress). SCOTUS cannot fix that. Only Congress can... and they won't unless we force them through our votes.
Michael
Translate: "Fair Share"
Answer: "More"
Michael,
You ask me not to include you in a description of people I called jerks, so I sort of acknowledged you are a rung up the cave man ladder from them, yet you call me foolish, and assail me as being naive.
Tell me what law enabled abortions and citizens united. They weren't laws, they are decisions made by courts, I recommend every book that has been written by any supreme court justice. And the list goes on.
You continue to be blinded by your ideology. I expect McConnell and Boehner and Reid and Pelosi to come up with a plan that gets what they AGREE upon done quickly. Then continue talking.
Do you agree this is simple to do? the senate has passed this bill. The house refuses to let it be heard.
Do you agree we have a country that has half wanting cuts, and half wanting more revenue from the wealthy?
So we start out at one to one or your position is one of complete total hypocrisy.
wtplv - "I just flat out disagree with you that the R's are 4 times as likely to need to modify their positions as D's are."
Michael,
You are ignoring the fact that the religious right is behind many of the social issues that taint the GOP. The GOP is in trouble and they really need to figure out how to undo much of the garbage and lies they've spoken about. For example, you can't ignore climate change, evolution and science in general and still expect people to believe you are reasonable as a candidate.
Jeff,
I consider calling someone a 'jerk' and saying you believe their views are naive and foolish are different. I don't engage in personal name calling and I hope you don't approve of that either. Let's set that behind us.
Look, to have a real debate, I have to actually respond to what you say and you have to do the same with what I say. I said the corruption would remain even if SCOTUS reversed Citizens United. You pointed out that Citizen's United wasn't a law. What?
And if you want to believe that whatever is cobbled together by Congress will really address the debt and deficit problems, be my guest.
Michael
Let's grant that the religious right does ignore (or rather rejects) climate change, evolution and science in general as VernosB says.
That said, there are those on the left that seemingly reject the idea that liberty is built on personal responsibility and the concept that individual initiative is needed for improving one's lot in life. It is not unreasonable to say that the Democrats of today are not the same Party that embraced JFK when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you ..."
Freeman
First of all Obama's tax plan is a class warfare plan only in your own mind. From where I sit it just cancels the tax welfare plan that the Bush tax cuts introduced.
Vernos,
I've stated many times that I disagree with R's on many social issues and that they ought to leave them out of campaigns.
And if you believe in man made climate change, that's your right, but there are many people and scientists that have questions about how much man has to do with it and how much effect just the US could have on mitigating it.
And, just because there are some people that don't believe in evolution doesn't mean that's what the entire member ship of the party believes.
Michael
Jim,
Obama's class warfare tax plan failed already in the house with 20 democrats voting against it. Obama needs to convince those in his own party that picking more winners and losers via the tax code is the way to go. We'll see what happens.
Vernos and Jeff,
Here is another reason I don't like or trust either party. All during the campaign, D's said everything is on the table and we have to address entitlements. Now that the election is over and D's won, we get Charles Schumer and others saying 'no entitlement reform, 'no changes'. They are proposing another stimulus and other spending, extending the payroll tax cuts.... and to pay for all that.... wait... wait... we want to tax the wealthy 3.5 % more. The numbers don't work, guys.
The R's did not have a serious plan to deal with the deficit and debt. The D's said the R's plan was not viable but insisted that a plan that was. Oh really???? I'm still waiting to hear it.
Michael
The Republicans are obviously out of touch with reality and the majority of the country. They need to get a new shtick. Bobby Jimdal is already on the right track. He seems to understand that Republicans must halt the stupidity within the party.
If you think Obama won because of special gifts, you've got some serious problems. Mitt just doesn't want to admit his campaign made some serious miscalculations. It seems they never looked at the arguments coming from the other side and thus remained insulated from the possibilities of other, more robust realities.
Here is another example of the GOP going off the deep end:
"Georgia's Senate Majority Leader held a closed-door briefing at which a Tea Party reject claimed that President Barack Obama is using mind control to force Americans into accepting a UN-run communist dictatorship."
"President Obama is using a Cold War-era mind-control technique known as "Delphi" to coerce Americans into accepting his plan for a United Nations-run communist dictatorship in which suburbanites will be forcibly relocated to cities. That's according to a four-hour briefing delivered to Republican state senators at the Georgia state Capitol last month."
For all the patriotic palaver that is spoken in this country one fact remains true. One half really hates the other half. White women and brown men clinched Obama's victory and that IS a fact.
Vernos,
You take one meeting in Georgia and rubberstamp the whole GOP as believing in mind control. Come on!
Michael
Former Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour says the GOP needs a "proctology exam" to figure out what went wrong in the 2012 election.
Even Haley Barbour admits the party is full of a-holes.
After listening to Ron Paul's fair-well address today in Congress, I am more convinced than ever that we have two parties that are going to ensure that our country fails economically.
I am going to have to seriously consider not voting for either major party anymore. The more and more I see, the more it becomes apparent that neither party is serious about matching revenues to spending, nor are they serious about removing money from the political process or many other critical items that we need to address.
We badly need a viable 3rd party and we will never have one until many of us stop rubber stamping the same people back into office and supporting one of the two major political parties.
Michael
Good Lord, but the Neo-Nuts are OFF THE RAILS...
& Freeman is the Engineer!
Personal attacks are now 'en vogue' with the losing side of the Presidential election; how hopelessly sad & childish.
Nancy Augustin nails it with a perfectly penned piece of EDITORIALIZING; and refreeman, as has been his want these past few days, ATTACKS THE MESSENGER!
You & Carmine, wow; 2 peas in a crazy pod!
'$250,000 is MIDDLE CLASS' according to Carmine...
THAT is outright ridiculousness right there.
NO WONDER you guys are totally out of touch with the electorate! That was Romney-esque, my friend!
"According to the Census Bureau, the middle 60% of households make between $20,263 and $101,582, and the middle quintile -- the "middlest" of the middle class -- makes $38,521-$62,434 per year. The median household brings home $50,020 per year."
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/11/02/p...
$250,000 is 'middle class', cries Carmine!
Oh, the freakin' hilarity of that statement!
Nancy, keep on posting your wonderful middle class, common sense, 'of the people', united-we-stand commentary;
you are correctamundo...the composition of the U.S., the VAST MAJORITY of 'us' are quite powerful in our own right...if not technically 'wealthy'.
The loonies are 'LEAVING THE COUNTRY!', OR 'seceding from the United States!...
That Mitt Romney loss was the LAST STRAW!
We just can't TAKE IT anymore!
Oh, the HUMANITY!
We'd rather NOT HAVE A COUNTRY than to have Barack Obama as President!
Are you people for real???
GET A GRIP!!!
Gmag39,
Actually, the nut title goes to your far-left Occupy group made up of mostly radical teachers/students, socialists, union workers and anarchists. Everyone knows OWS was developed to counter the TEA party but the idea failed miserably. The OWS group exposed how radical the far left is causing democrats to distance from these radicals. A majority of cities had to chase the OWS groups out of their cities due to lawlessness, safety and sanitary reasons. This was the nut group Gmag39.
Why is it difficult to admit the truth?
We have been glossing over reality for decades. The whole world is in such a mess because people's concept of reality is askew.
This is actually normal. It is our way of negotiating the world around us. It is how we deal with the world when it does not conform with what we want it to be. It is a form of defense mechanism - for self- preservation.
It becomes abnormal when we attack another human being because we blame them for the discomforts we experience. It's alright if we do this once in a while, but if it becomes a habit and hurts other people, it is time for psychotherapy.
Nancy,
My advice to you would be to state who you are, what you believe, why you believe what you do and leave it at that. When you attack the other party, the financially successful, business, business leaders, school district leadership, white people, etc it leaves you open to counter arguments that you're not able to successfully counter. Your beliefs don't make you a bad person but your tactics can lead others to that conclusion. State what you belief and spend less time mis-characterizing others who have different beliefs or views. Also, be accepting of other viewpoints. When there is no overlap between your views and another poster then simply "agree to disagree" in a respectful way and leave it at that. There are a few posters here who try to find common ground. These few posters keep the dialogue moving towards a common understanding of the problem but typically agreements on possible solutions are elusive. I think the exchange of thoughts and ideas can be invigorating for just about everyone.
Both Republicans and Democrats did their best to throw money at specific groups in an effort to have them vote based on that identity rather than as Americans doing what is best for the country as a whole.
The single biggest issue we have is putting our citizens back to work, yet even Ms. Agustin is pointing out that politicians should place the needs of special interests first.
There is not one iota of difference in principle between a politician who places the needs of any given demographic first and one who is controlled by the banking community. (Although I tend to think that those who try to divide us along demographic lines are doing an even greater disservice to the country by doing so.)
To use the words from an author far greater than me: "A pox on both your houses!"
Freeman: I do not take advice from you. I cannot even respect you because you do not respect other people whose views differ from you. Your idea of truth is beyond reason. No one agrees with you except possibly Future who believes in the same 'isms' as you do. I state what is true and you attack me personally instead of offering a rebuttal. If you don't like what I write, then ignore it if you do not have a rebuttal.
BOFTX. I did not say anything about special interest. I said you lost because you did not consider that America is changing.
I cannot help it if your frame of references gave you a different perspective of the truth.
We will never agree about anything because our respective premises are at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
However, truth always wins. The election proved it.
"However, truth always wins. The election proved it." - ASadTeacher
I would be willing to bet lunch you did not say that in 2000.
And, no, I did not lose, in the sense that I am not a Republican as you seem to believe. You can check the records, I am registered as unaffiliated.
And, yes, you did talk about special interest groups as defined by demographics. It's disappointing in some ways that I doubt my children will ever have you for a teacher. You and I would have some most interesting conferences.
Nancy,
I have no problem with your disagreeable approach and will always respect your right to express your thoughts and viewpoints. Nancy, you have a political agenda that minimizes opportunities for a substantive debate on issues. When you mis-characterize others who have opposing views it leaves you open to others who are willing and ready to give a counter view to your own. Expressing opposing views is not hateful or being mean-spirited. You should be proud of who you are and of your beliefs but don't be crestfallen when others disagree with you or express an opinion that doesn't match your own viewpoint.
wtplv - "You take one meeting in Georgia and rubberstamp the whole GOP as believing in mind control. Come on!"
Add on politicians calling for secession and the impeachment of Obama and this goes beyond one meeting of elected officials in Geogia. It's a whole group of people collectively flipping their wigs. When are you going to face the truth Michael? Part of the GOP has gone insane and for the life of me I can't understand why you don't see that. You never struck me as being unintelligent. Even as I write this, some Republican leaders are finally trying to reel the crazies in, because they see the damage being done to the Republican brand.
No. 2000 was not an election. It was stolen by Bush and condoned by a republican supreme court.
No Freeman. You attack people personally and it is not only me who says that. Kepi, Peacelilly, Jeff, Sam, Antigov, GMAG, Vernos, teehee, Teamster, mark, and others. How many agree with you?
I am not crestfallen. I am actually having fun, especially because they agree with me and not with you. Those are the people worthy of respect because they do not attack. They simply tell the truth, not lies or cooked up truth.
As I read the comments I believe most people are missing Obama's position-he wants to take from the rich to give to the poor-when I was in school this was called socialism. How does this help the middle class exactly? This article actually is very demeaning to someone who is a repub.. I was an independent who voted repub. because I simply do not trust Obama-one of the biggest factors is his use of progranda(?) against logic. Take from the rich and give to the poor helps the middle class how? Does he really want to start a class war? The only people who lose are the middle class. The rich have money while the poor have handouts-whats left? I am a home health nurse who has seen with mine own eyes someone living in Sec 8 housing who has a better computer than me, better phone and a IPad. I see the poor actually have it better than me-I struggle to keep 2 jobs to make full-time! People I have talk to are getting really sick of seeing the poor live better than a hard working person. Esp. when you know there is no reason why they can not be working.Enough from me but I am a single female that wanted change who instead got the same old thing. By the way isn't socialism what Hitler believe and look what happened there!
"I state what is true ..." - ASadTeacher
Pontius Pilate (supposedly) once asked "What is truth?" Ms. Agustin should make an attempt to answer that given her claim. It is a question that has been wrestled with I daresay since the first creature evolved that was capable of deception.
We accept some truths as self-evident, that 1 + 1 = 2. Yet Whitehead and Russell needed about 400 pages to prove that statement in a rigorous manner using formal logic. How much more difficult must it be to prove the truth of any statement that involves political thought?
ASadTeacher,
Okay, let's set aside 2000, did you say the truth won in 2004? Again, I'll wager lunch that you did not.
Given prior comments by both Ms. Agustin and those who, shall we say, disagree with her, I think this quote from Bertrand Russell might be amusing and thought provoking:
"Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position." - Bertrand Russell
Nancy......GREAT LETTER! 100% on the mark.
YES, those greedy republicans found out the hard
way.
THEY COULD NOT BUY THIS ELECTION!
Votes ARE WORTH more than money.
The truth won this election.
And those crazy republicans still can't stop
crying.
What a bunch of big cry babies.
It's all over for the republican party.
We know they hate poor people.
We DEMOCRATS are taking back the House in two
years.
boftx......
The truth in 2000 was that republicans stole that
election.
That's the truth.
And those same republican thieves went on to
destroy our entire economy.
That's also the truth.
And you need to listen to the teacher.
Listen and learn.
teamster,
It is good to listen to the teacher and learn. But one of the lessons must be to always question authority.
We do not advance unless someone asks "What if the teacher is wrong?"
boftx.....
We already know that the republicans are wrong and
the teacher is right.
Climb out of that bubble, if you can.
Nancy wrote "No Freeman. You attack people personally and it is not only me who says that. Kepi, Peacelilly, Jeff, Sam, Antigov, GMAG, Vernos, teehee, Teamster, mark, and others"
I challenge premises and points especially ones involving faulty logic and mis-characterizations of opposing viewpoints. I challenged Peacelily on her view to "Raise the tax rate on the upper tax bracket to 70%" or her desire to "split the country into 3-4 sovereign nations based on the political philosophy the people hold to. One for Republicans, one for Democrats, one for Libertarians, and one for Greens........If any of those countries want to be capitalists, fine. If any want to be democratic socialists, fine".
With you Nancy, I challenge your premise that the election "pits the rich and the poor. Who do you think Romney would favor? Who do you think Obama would favor? It's as simple as that". The truth is Nancy, each party has supporters among all income levels. Your premise defies logic so my conclusion as I stated in an earlier post was you have a "political agenda" with many of your comments. When you attack the other party, the financially successful, business, business leaders, school district leadership, white people, etc it leaves you wide open to counter arguments that you're ill equipped to successfully counter because facts don't often support your premise. A counter argument is not put in the context of "good person against bad person", rather, it's "your viewpoint and my viewpoint". As I said, you should be proud of who you are and your beliefs but don't be upset when others disagree with you or express an opinion that doesn't match your own viewpoint. Debate should be fun, engaging and enlightening.
Oh yes, I am having fun!
Political agenda? Yes I do. You don't?
I was not pitting rich and poor. The statement was there were more poor than rich and they came out en masse to vote to preserve what little they have. It was wrong to marginalize them (as in 47% moochers, as sluts, as illegals who should self- deport). That was the gist of my comment. I opined that republicans should reassess their politics or they will suffer another defeat and the political balance will be lost.
What did you do? Bring up my salary AGAIN, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my comments or the issue I raised.
You have your own reality and let's leave it at that.
"Carmine thinks $250,000 a year in income is middle class." @Mark Schaffer
It's not millionaire and billionaire. Like the President said, it's not calculus, it's math. And $250,000 comes up short by $750,000 and $1,000,750,000. Just in case you couldn't, I did the math for you.
Tell the truth. The exit poll on election day asked voters if they wold agree to higher taxes to pay down the deficit. 33 percent said yes. 63 percent said no. "No" by a 2 to 1 margin. President has no mandate. He's got lies and more lies.
CarmineD
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"No. 2000 was not an election. It was stolen by Bush and condoned by a republican supreme court."
Let it go Teach. Let it go.
Even that bastion of republicanism, the NYTimes said Bush won florida.
Vernos,
I have never denied that there are people with views outside the mainstream in the R party and within the Tea Party wing of the R party. What I will not do is make the jump to the conclusion that such people make the whole R party and the whole Tea Party into a bunch of right wing loons. That simply isn't the case, any more than the people in the the D party that are essentially socialists make the D party a socialist party.
Michael
Ms. Agustin,
Please, you are being somewhat disingenuous. You did indeed pit the poor against the rich in your letter. The inescapable implication of your statement is that the poor will vote to take what they need (or want) from the rich and they can not be denied the right to do so.
You have (inadvertently, to be sure) given some justification to Romney's ill-conceived remarks about the 47%.
Nancy,
You have your own political paradigm of rich versus poor, whites versus minorities and CCSD leadership versus teachers. In every debate, you develop some entity or person to make the villain of your cause. Being a teacher it's easy to be anti-business and anti-capitalist because the private sector ultimately funds your salary & benefits. Capitalism is a moral scapegoat by socialists to explain our human disappointments and dissatisfactions however, the reason fails to connect due to multiple factors that cause disappointment and dissatisfaction. Their logic is akin to an average-looking woman not feeling attractive due to Jennifer Aniston. For some, when someone is successful it reminds them of their own failures. It's viewing others well being with the emotion of disappointment in oneself. Envy is the byproduct of rewarding those with ideas, who work hard, who risk and who strive to improve our standard of living. Socialists want to kill the thoroughbred in us and keep us all herded in sameness and that is a shame. When the Occupy movement popped up then fizzled last year, I was amazed at how many teachers preached socialist viewpoints and "liked" socialist related pages on their Facebook page. Socialism makes the middle class and poor poorer. Many of us have lived in Europe so we know firsthand how socialism negatively affects the prospect for prosperity in socialist leaning countries. For our economy to grow, we need those with means to spend, investors to invest, we need a 10 year plan to curb the growth rate of government spending from 7% per year to 4% and we need tax reform to raise tax revenue and close tax loopholes which benefit the few at the expense of the many. We do not need more economic policies that discourages hard working Americans and entrepreneurship.
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from a graduate of UT..." We do not need more economic policies that discourages hard working Americans and entrepreneurship."
sounds like dumb hit the fan and splattered language and economic theory all goobered up with philosophy and just a smattering of class warfare and a dash of dislike of anything Obama...Thanks for the concession, Re...teehee
Joe Lamy,
I hope you're doing well and that your knee is getting better.
I don't mind your harmless comments. Should anything of substance materialize from your posts then I'll be sure to respond.
Quitting is not a solution to a problem. Complaining about a system one has benefit from for many years without an offering of help for improvement is being somewhat of a hypocrite. Just to be clear, being a hypocrite is not name calling. It describes a persons actions. The word hypocrite is in the dictiornary, so please folks don't be offended if this description fits your actions on a subject being discussion.
This country has many people who just to complain and obstruct. Where are the creative thinkers? All one reads on any article posted on the Sun is complainers. Any attempt at reasoning, is responded by extreme positions without any offering of a solution.
Everything is not partisan as many of you have said. Many are American responses. Maybe comments are partisan because one chooses to see them as partisan.
The fight on the Sun comments board is to challenge the unreasonable in a respectful way with facts that can be explained so all may learn. So, you folks who are sensitive to challenges to your post, please just don't respond. Read and learn. Be creative. Be a thinker.
Nancy Agustin,
Your letting them bloody you up. Don't explain, challenge. Your losing to a person who will run from his position.
LTV
Thanks Long. I am quite secure of who I am.
Actually, the more they talk, the more they show who they really are. Only their ilk will agree with them. People are much smarter. They can spot lies. This election has already proven that.
The only problem with that scenario is: Election should present choices. There is danger when the choices are two extremes. Republicans must strive to be relevant in a fast changing world, otherwise balance will be lost. There are issues that conservatism must be the yardstick, however, the language of approach must be inclusive to curry strength in its argument.
They seem to fail to understand that message.
Thanks again.
Nancy Agustin says,
"They seem to fail to understand that message"
Nancy, you are correct. My young friends call this "listening to yourself." The reality, those folks are living in a Bubble. The people in the Bubble only see and hear what is in the Bubble. You and others who appeal for reasonable dialog cannot get through, and will not be heard from people living inside the Bubble.
Pardon the Humor.
Some say extreme positions, such as those living in the Bubble, require communication through hard talk and cold water splashes with a huge cup of espresso. That is just to get them to turn around. The only way to communicate with the people inside the Bubble is through a Bubble Master, like Foxnews, or Rush Limbaugh, or websites like the Drudge Report. In order to do that, you would have to compromise your values to enter into that world of fantasy. Otherwise, your wasting good words.
Have a good one.
LTV
Longtimevegan wrote "Your letting them bloody you up. Don't explain, challenge. Your losing to a person who will run from his position."
Nancy is posting her thoughts and viewpoints which is what we all do. She doesn't have to debate or challenge other viewpoints if she chooses not to or is not comfortable doing so.