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Monday, Nov. 12, 2012 | 2 a.m.
In the proposals that President Barack Obama made Friday, in wanting to bring the nation back from a fiscal cliff, he suggested that the Bush tax cuts for the middle class be extended immediately. He also continued his plan to raise tax rates for the 2 percent of Americans making over $250,000 like himself. He suggested that their taxes be returned to what they were under President Bill Clinton, increasing their tax rate from 35 percent to 39.6 percent. That’s an increase of 13 percent. Let’s see how Republicans react to this. How can they object to extending the tax cuts ...
Richard Mundy,
Obama's class warfare tax plan already failed in the house this year on a bi-partisan vote(20 democrats voting against). So now Obama has resorted to holding hostage the current middle class tax rates. Obama needs to be aware that we live in a representative democracy, not a dictatorship.
To increase any tax rates at this time is an absurd idea. Obama is obsessed with squeezing a few more dollars out of those making over $250 k and dampening any chances for a faster economic recovery. This is plain ideologue policy which Obama and democrats are pushing and in so doing placing middle class Americans in greater jeopardy. TheHouse must remain firm on their position and not cave on this policy.
Obama must find it within himself to compromise in this area and use some common sense. Something he has been unwilling to do. Repubicansarewilling to remove tax preferencesfor the rich as a means to raising taxes Obama for once needs to listen.
Those who are on the president's side in this matter are not doing the math.there is very little gain in the overall revenue side in relative terms and the timing could not be worse. To truly raise enough revenueto make any headway would require more taxes on themiddleclass which is a non starter.if Obama really wants to squeeze more out of millionaires and billionaires let him tax those earning more than $1million a year.
Nobody but nobody want to tip the economy back into RECESSION
CBO stated that if the current tax rates were not extended we would increase unemployment over 9% and bring on a recession
Why would anyone want that
This envy tax would hurt everyone
Conservatives have already passed a pro growth tax extension in the House that Obama and Reid are hold hostage
Why will Obama and Reid not act to get increased REVENUE
"So now Obama has resorted to holding hostage the current middle class tax rates."
What's this? A newsflash from a parallel universe? Last summer President Obama urged Congress to pass a tax extension for the middle class (98% of us) because there seemed to be no disagreement to do so. The Senate held votes on the matter. Republicans voted against it and killed it. If there's anyone holding middle class tax rates hostage, it's the GOP advocating for their 2% consituency.
Before we all (including myself) jump the gun, lets see what the gathering of the President and the leaders of the House and Senate produces. Both sides led off with their stances: Obama's increase on taxes on the folks making above 250k per year (by the way, that figure is for COUPLES making over that amount), and Boehner's case for not raising taxes on anyone. There is ample room for compromise there, I believe.
BOTH sides have to compromise, and face the reality of sequestration if they don't. Neither side wants to see that happen.
In case anyone doesn't notice, this argument is about each party, not America, which continues to be the problem. A tax on the wealthy isn't going to address the spending issues and a tax on the wealthy isn't going to crash the economy.
This is a fight between parties. I don't care if they raise the tax rates or cut loopholes and exemptions for the wealthy. Either way, the wealthy will use their accountants to figure a way to use the byzantine income tax code to find ways to avoid taxes.
When and if both sides agree to a total re-write of the income tax code, entitlement reform, and reductions in defense spending and increased taxes (all contained in Simpson Bowles), they get no credit from me.
Both parties are to blame because they place party over the good of America. We need to insist on a better performance than this.
Michael
Jim Weber,
Obama's class warfare tax plan failed already this year with 20 democrats voting against it in the house. Are you disputing this fact?
Michael Casler is correct. Obama's tax plan was a political strategy to gin up votes but does not appreciably solve our debt/deficit problems.
I also agree with Gary Lind's point. Obama wants to raise tax rates and Boehner wants to raise tax revenue by cutting tax loopholes that mainly benefit top wage earners. There should be room for compromise. Still, it begs the question, what does this solve? The extra revenue is equivalent to putting 2 lbs of air pressure in a flat tire requiring 38 lbs. It gets us no where.
Michael
I agree that inter party knife fighting solves nothing. The country, for now, is on the back burner, as usual. But I see a glimmer of hope; prodded by the looming Budget Control Act (fiscal cliff), I believe the President and the Speaker can (and must) reach an agreement that is amenable to both sides. If not, the citizenry will suffer. I want to see a settlement reached that will remove uncertainty from small business, and the markets. Kicking the can down the road (again) ain't gonna work!
Re Freeman.
I agree that the continued fixation on taxes by both sides does little to solve the "big picture" issues that would obviously remain. The fiscal cliff is not all about taxes; to me it is more important to settle the small business community down (get rid of the uncertainty), and send a message to the stock markets of the world that we are going to put our economic mess in order. However, once the tax "issue" is addressed, for good or bad, the rest of this mess can truly begin to be solved.
Obama would raise capital gain tax rates even when shown that revenue has consistently fallen, claiming something about "fairness". I guess a community organizer can never be learned.
Several of us seem to agree that any tax deal isn't really going to move the ball the way it needs to be moved.
It's really tragic that so few Americans realize that these two parties have just sat there as millions of Americans suffer through this economy, arguing over 'taxes', when the much larger part of the problem is growth and spending. It just illustrates where the priorities of both parties lie.... and that is to push for their own self interests, and ignore what is best for all Americans.
Truly sad...
Michael
Can't make the comparison to Clinton years. We didn't have a recession. We had economic growth. That's the time to raise taxes to increase revenues to pay down the debt and deficit.
Obama and the dems are trying to Europeanize the US with the Keynesian concept of increasing taxes to increase government spending. He wants 25 percent of GDP to be government spending. Didn't work in Europe and won't work here.
And GOPeoples' House got the same voter mandate in 2012 as 2010 to fight tax rate increases. Plus picked up state houses across the country.
CarmineD
Paul Krugman writes "So what should he [Obama] do? Just say no and go over the cliff if necessary. It's worth pointing out that the fiscal cliff isn't really a cliff. It's not like the debt-ceiling confrontation, where terrible things might well have happened right away if the deadline had been missed. This time, nothing very bad will happen to the economy if agreement isn't reached....."
"fiscal cliff isn't really a cliff." This is the kind of deep thinking Democrats are spewing out.
Freeman
I didn't dispute that 20 Democrats out of 190 in the House voted against it or that most or all Republicans did too. Do you dispute that Republicans in the Senate killed a tax extension for the middle class(98% of us)? Do you dispute that President Obama, in his statement just last Friday, called again for Congress to immediately pass a tax extension for those making under $250,000 a year?
I've certainly never suggested that a tax increase for the wealthy would solve our deficit problem any more than a single spending cut would do the same. You eat an elephant one bite at a time.
If a bipartisan agreement to raise the same amount of revenue from the wealthiest through eliminating deductions and leaving the top rate at 35% is a better choice, I can support that.
I don't care what the republicans have to say.
Let all the Bush/Obama tax cuts expire.
Let the automatic cuts happen.
Then come back and cut a deal to our liking.
OFF THE CLIFF!
"Sandy" has shown us what to expect if Obamacare ever is truly implemented. The Long Island Power Authority is a great example of how badly government unelected, unaccountable, pencil-pushing bureaucrats react to a crisis. 10s of 1,000s of Long Islanders are still without power and the union that L.I. politicians cozy up to refuses to allow Florida electrical workers who came to help do any work because they "only" make $35 an hour while LIPA electricians make $47. How's that for taking care of the folks? That's how Dumbocrats work hand-in-hand with unions to freeze out competition and raise ordinary folks costs and it's all hidden in fancy contracts and cozy arrangements that over pay union goons taxpayers employ and then fill the coffers of the sleazeball politicians with campaign "contributions." Once the feds take absolute control of our health system we can expect the same non-caring and cynical approach. Who will you complain to then?
41 says "If a bipartisan agreement to raise the same amount of revenue from the wealthiest through eliminating deductions and leaving the top rate at 35% is a better choice, I can support that."
All we need not is for Obama to do the right thing
Here is what we do know a growing economy produces REVENUE
In fiscal 2007 federal revenue was $2,568 trillion with ALL the Bush tax RATE reductions in place
Under Obama in 2011 the federal revenue was $2,302 trillion with the same tax rates
Its the economy
Jim,
It is too bad that we don't have more people in America like you, on both sides.
We need more revenue. Let's get some by a tax hike on the wealthy and or cuts in deductions, exemptions etc for the wealthy.
Once the 'small ball' is done, let's begin to look at spending, the place President Obama and the Congress really don't want to go.
Like it or not, Americans are going to have to go there, so the sooner, the better.
Greece has cut spending again, so they can get a 40 billion dollar loan. Can't we cut some spending so we can stop borrowing from the future?
Michael
@brtaylor 6:24 a.m.
I totally agree.
Carmine,
I totally disagree with your GOPeoples' House, but kudos to you ~ very clever; it's nice, but I do not support it.
I find it ironic that the debt is blamed on the Bush tax cuts yet the President himself wants to keep them, but just for some people. Either get rid of them entirely for everyone or leave them be for everyone and work on tax code and loop holes.
It's time to let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire.........
It's evident, "trickle down" doesn't work. The "fat cats" have had their greedy run. It'S now time to go back to what worked.......Bill Clinton economics!!
Of course, don't hold your breath waiting for the GOP to start working with President Obama..
It might be 2014/15 before the Democrats are able to put their program in place.....right after the mid-term elections & the Democrat take over of the house....
Enjoyed the letter, Mr. Mundy. And I'm pretty sure I can answer the questions you posed.
"How can they object to extending the tax cuts for the middle class?"
They can object. And they show they could care less about an excuse. Even without Romney and Ryan running for election, they are still sticking to the same tactic of blaming the middle class for everything. Whether it's true or not, it fits their agenda to let the rich reap the benefits while shoving all the sacrifice off on everyone else.
"Will they continue their fight to prevent the wealthy from paying a little more in taxes?"
Yes.
"Whose side are they on, anyway?"
They are only on the side of three classes of people:
(1) The rich,
(2) The filthy rich, and
(3) The obscenely filthy rich.
The rest of us don't matter.
Speaking of don't matter... It really don't matter what they say or do on this issue. President Obama, after all these years of playing stupid Tea/Republican silly games, is now in the driver's seat.
One thing for sure is that the Former President George W. Bush Jr. Tax Cuts For The Rich are going to end on January 1, 2013.
It's hardball time, Tea/Republicans. All that rhetoric is coming back to bite you in the....
Colin makes it sound as though Obama is the dictator of the United States. Doesn't he know we live in representative democracy????
Future: If you are going to quote Paul Krugman, the least you could do is to quote his entire context. Yes, he did write that there is no "fiscal cliff." But at the same time he stated that there is a very real "POLITICAL cliff." Republicans initially wrote a fiscal policy that their cuts would expire on a given date. It's become a political cliff in that Republicans now want to make the political decision to repudiate their initial fiscal policy and make all of the temporary tax cuts permanent.
In addition it's not really a "cliff" we'll go off. It's more like the first step of a stairway. If we let the Bush tax cuts expire at 1159 PM on December 31 the impact will not be felt, like falling off a cliff, at 1201 AM on January 1. It'll be felt gradually over a period of time as salaried people start receiving their 2013 paychecks. For some, especially those in the top 2%, it'll not be felt until early 2014, when they start computing their taxes on 2013 income not subject to withholding (which is the bulk of it...).
Finally, the full impact of the tax cuts expiring may potentially be felt only if they are never reinstated. Congress can do so, either permanently or temporarily, anytime in 2013 and make their action retroactive to January 1. They've routinely done just that in the past. But that's a political, not a fiscal, decision.
The Bush tax cut plan originally passed by Republicans were designed to put more money in consumers hands to keep the economy from going into a deeper recession. The Bush tax cuts benefited more lower and middle income wage earners including single mothers and the elderly than the rich.
* 46 million married couples received an average tax cut of $1,716.
* 34 million families with children received from an average tax cut of $1,473.
* 6 million single women with children received an average tax cut of $541.
* 13 million elderly taxpayers received an average tax cut of $1,384.
* 23 million small business owners received tax cuts averaging $2,042.
* 3 million moderate-income families saw their income tax burden eliminated entirely.
Additionally, the Bush tax cuts brought in more tax revenue, not less.
People like renorobert want higher taxes on middle class families. At least we know where you stand renorobert.
By the way, I use to live in Reno as well in the Stead Air Force area. Nice place.
Tax love plan : no tax no love plan. Something must be done not just pens rolling on tables. These colonial aged tax rules should be put in a cage so weak man can't spoil his hands with 'em.
Every worker has a responsibility load to carry and if you think you can't carry your load give it to someone else.
I really must laugh at you people with blinders on. If anyone waged class warfare, it was those on the right following the evangelicals over the political cliff.
Will you go into another state of shock and denial when Obama wins this battle over taxes?
"Will you go into another state of shock and denial when Obama wins this battle over taxes?"
Let me complete your thought for you..."and loses the war over the economy." It's economics not politics. Raising taxes in times of long drawn out recessions, aka keynesian theories, curtails economic growth not sparks it. Don't believe me? Look at Europe.
CarmineD
Raising taxes on the wealthy has been researched. It has no effect on the economy, except to provide the government with much needed money. Saying it will harm the economy is a flat out lie. Argument has no merit, and has been roundly disproved. The republicans have attempted to suppress this recent research information.
Obama is not holding the middle class tax breaks hostage. If the Repubs vote his proposal down, he will simply allow them all to expire. Then he will immediately propose legislation to renew (retroactively) the middle-class tax breaks ONLY. The Repubs will be in the awkward position of wanting to vote down a TAX CUT which would end them. Face it, the upper class tax breaks are gone, kiss them goodbye.
Trickle down is discredited by scholars, and the voters have also rejected it. Please get over that worthless platform.
Ultimately, if the repubs vote against Obama, they will continue to look like the party of "No", and they will not be successful. They will engage in a worthless fight they cannot win. No gain except frustrating the voters who voted for Obama's policies: a lose lose.
Oh, and by the way, Europe is in a mess because they've instituted austerity programs instead of stimulus....you know, what the Repubs are pushing.