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Published Thursday, March 1, 2012 | 3:15 p.m.
Updated Thursday, March 1, 2012 | 5 p.m.
Sun archives
- Under microscope, county firefighters taking less sick leave (7-21-2011)
- Firefighter terminated for abusing county sick-leave system (5-18-2011)
- FBI sifts through 250,000 e-mails for firefighter sick-leave probe (5-15-2011)
- Sources: Firefighter sick-leave probe will leave 1 jobless, 16 disciplined (5-12-2011)
- Another firefighter perk fans flames (3-26-2011)
- Fire union official defends heavy use of sick leave in ’09 (3-6-2011)
- Firefighters' quest for a new perk was short-lived (3-4-2011)
- Under scrutiny, firefighter sick leave falls (2-27-2011)
- County considers seeking reimbursement over firefighter sick leave abuse (2-15-2011)
- Sisolak offers proof of firefighters ‘gaming’ sick leave system (9-11-2010)
Since county officials began questioning firefighters’ use of sick leave two years ago, sick-leave requests in the Clark County Fire Department have fallen by 57,000 hours.
A county report obtained in response to a Sun request found that within those 57,000 hours, battalion chiefs’ sick leave fell from an average of 164 hours a year two years ago to about 16 hours last year, a 90 percent decline.
For rank-and-file firefighters, the average hours of sick leave taken fell from 227 hours two years ago to 136 hours last year, a 40 percent drop.
The staggering decline has saved Clark County millions of dollars. Although firefighters are still paid while out sick, the department saved on the cost of an additional firefighter to fill in at overtime rates, which sometimes includes payments into the employees’ retirement account.
Commissioner Steve Sisolak, who had accused firefighters of gaming the system, often taking sick leave in order to help colleagues obtain higher overtime pay, said Thursday: “This just goes to show that the abuse was even greater than I anticipated, especially with battalion chiefs. Though not as many were disciplined as I thought could have been, the fact is the county is now saving millions and millions of dollars. We achieved what we wanted to do.”
A spokesman for the fire fighters’ union also could not be immediately reached for comment
The issue of sick leave was first written about in the Sun two years ago. But it wasn’t until an independent contract arbitrator expressed his concerns about sick-leave use within the department in January 2011 that county administrators changed sick-leave rules.
“Some employees use sick leave as vacation, scheduling themselves to be ‘sick’ months in advance. This improper use of sick leave is evident from e-mails the (Fire) Department recovered,” arbitrator Norman Brand wrote in his decision about the contract.
The county is again in contract negotiations with the firefighters union.
The amount of sick-leave firefighters asked for fell almost immediately after that decision. By July 2011, sick-leave use fell 32 percent on average per pay period.
By August 2011, the county finished an investigation into potential sick-leave abuse. A battalion chief and a firefighters stationed in Laughlin were let go.
New sick leave rules were also put into place. Deputy chiefs, not battalion chiefs, were ordered to handle sick leave requests, with county management as a backup. Firefighters calling in sick more than five times a year now need a “doctor’s note,” where before they only needed that kind of proof if they called in sick on four consecutive shifts.
Firefighter overtime pay has been a contentious issue for years in the county. The union has said the county decries overtime but then doesn’t staff the department with enough firefighters, which makes high overtime numbers impossible to avoid.
Crimes were commited and it is being swept under the rug! I feel violated!
I would agree crimes were committed, just goes to show that crime does pay when under the guise of the government!
"staggering decline"....... proof right there of a criminal act. If all of the overtime was legit there wouldn't have been ANY decline.
I'm glad that the mysterious illness that seemed to float from station to station has passed. Hopefully these guys can continue to stay healthy.
The proof is in the pudding. When are the firefighters going to repay all the money they've stolen?
At 24 hours a pop, they're still averaging 11 shifts a year sick. I'm sick, maybe, three days a year and I'm in terrible shape. These guys spend half their duty time working out (which they should be). I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I'd be curious to see national averages for fire fighters use of sick days.
Chunky says:
People do what you inspect not what you expect!!!
That's what Chunky thinks!
"The proof is in the pudding. When are the firefighters going to repay all the money they've stolen?"
Exactly!
And what about Gina Hall? This bat chief scammed the system, then sued and won 500K from the county for a sex harrasment suit, then retired? She's the only one?
Who are these thieves stealing from now?
This is sort of like when you see a pattern of an employee calling in sick only on Friday's or Monday's. You confront them and all of the sudden the call-ins stop. It's pretty hard to defend yourself when your boss shows you that 90% of your sick calls are on a Monday or Friday. Same thing here.
good job sisolak, i just want to thank you for taking on these greedy firefighters--we all know they were gaming the system and i hope the next contract addresses this issue with much tougher rules. You got my vote and im in your district. Also the park is coming along and looking great(sunset) another excellent job. please continue your efforts i will put some votes together for next election. one issue id like addressed at sunset park is the insane use of motor boats on the lake. people are trying to relax and fish and escape stress and a couple old farts are racing at high speed with motors blaring noise all day long at the lake--please take a look at this issue the park management doesn't seem to care about the many but favors these few noise makers. also the strip vagrants and smut peddlers are out of control, please continue to push this issue. thanx again!
What are you going to do when Steve is gone Joe?
After his vote to raise our water rates again I dont think its too far off....
What about all those greedy firefighters mrlucky?
Joe told us Steve was going to get all of them fired? What happened to the big FBI investigation Joe told us about? What happened mrlucky?????
sounds to me theyre SICK of being worked to much due to understaffing
i used to have a job that would just stress me out.
after awhile it got to the point my bod was like limp spagetthi. when i bid off the job they kept me on there because no one was available . when i finally got of the job, my outlook improved i felt better no more "sick" time
Will they get an "unused sick leave" cash payment when they retire or go out on disability? If so, what difference does it make? We can pay them now or pay them later!
@lbfromlv- The issue isn't whether they use the sick time or not, it's that they were colluding with other employees to use sick time in order for their cronies to receive more overtime hours. Since overtime is time and a half, many of the firefighters in question were making more from overtime than from their base salary with total compensation well into six figures.
Maybe more people will stop their hero worship. More proof why Sisolak still gets my vote.
Thank you Steve Sisolak, where ever you are.
"Will they get an "unused sick leave" cash payment when they retire or go out on disability? If so, what difference does it make? We can pay them now or pay them later!"
If they don't use sick pay then it accumlates.
When they retire they cash it out at 50%.
Some people when they retire get sick leave cash outs over $200,000.
Them not using sick leave saves the County money for when one employee is out on sick that means OT for another employee at 1.5 times their rate.
It's very telling. This should actually mean that the department was being poorly run before and that those managers should have to go. The department only shapes up when the DA and FBI get involved?
BTW 57,000 hours comes out to 1,425 40hr work weeks.
I would like to hear more about what is going on with the investigations and what other charges or fines are being levied against those who fraudulently used sick leave.
Call the Pope: It's a miracle! The cure for common greed, I believe...
First of all kudos to Mr. Sisolak for staying the course and exposing this criminal theft.
I'd like to know why these FF's need so much sick time? Seems to me that they need to be in top physical shape and if they need that much time maybe we should set standards for fitness and lose the deadbeats that can't keep up.
On another note, the proof is in the numbers so you mean to tell me that there isn't going to be any more punishment doled out for the thieves that gamed the system? The union should be embarrassed to say the least and should step to the plate and lower thier expectations now that the fraud has been exposed.
The union doesn't monitor sick leave usage. That's the responsibility of FD management. Place the blame where it belongs.
So oldbrown FD management negotiated the amount of sick time the FF's receive or does the union negotiate it? I'm not saying the management isn't to blame for not monitoring it, what I'm saying is that if these FF's are in such greeat physical condition why do they need so many hours of sick time. Get it?
Fire all of them... They are so OVERPAID... Why do we pay them when there is no fire to go to ??? The TAXPAYER has to pay them when they eat and sleep !!!
Still TOO MANY PERKS. State employees still accrue 4 hours per pay period or 104 hours a year. Whatever sick leave they don't burn they can "donate" to a friend or use it to increase retirement benefits. Want to bet there are no sales of sick leave? Governor S. has obtained legislation to cut the amount accrued for NEW employees but we'll have to wait generations for the effect. City, county,and school district employees receive TOO MANY BENEFITS and too much pay. We need to cut back NOW so our economy can recover. A fair compensation package for good work would be ideal.
Fire them all. $190,000 salaries.
People were pissed when they used it and now pissed when they don't use it. Make up your minds.
At a busy Fire Dept like CCFD, an average FF will be called to help their community over a couple hundred thousands times during their career. Some of those experiences will be positive, but most are not. Sometimes a FF resolves a situation with a positive outcome and quietly goes away. No fanfare, no kudos... none required or expected. It's what they're driven and paid to do.
More commonly, FFs are called to deal with societies sickest and most disturbing moments. The moments and situations in life that nobody else wants to or knows how to deal with. Mucking around in society's muddiest trenches. Sometime this exposes FFs to physical risks, but what is rarely discussed even between FFs is the emotional risk. Sure, nobody forces a FF to do the job, but none the less they're merely human.
Every abused, assaulted, malnourished, homeless, lifeless, suicidal, decapitated, burned, drowned, etc. situation makes an imprint on their minds and hearts. An emotional and irrevocable toll is taken. Yes, bacteria, viruses and contagious diseases are a constant threat. People scream at us, spit on us, vomit on us, bleed on us, swing on us, pull guns on us....but there are more insidious dangers that nobody ever discusses. It's hard to understand unless you've spent some time in similar shoes.
How long do you think humans can handle this before emotional and psychological scars become physical? Not all sickness comes from bacteria and viruses. FFs spend 20-30 years serving their community. FFs don't always use sick time because of a fever or a productive cough. Sometimes it's a mental day, but don't ask them because they will never admit it. When you are expected to be at your best and toughest at all moments of day and night because lives depend on it, it's not acceptable to admit weakness. Repress and move on, someone else needs help so get moving. Maybe next time we can make a positive difference.
Less sick and vacation accrual will have an unexpected negative outcome.
Buddy, You can color it anyway you want but abuse of the system is different than using the system as designed.
As I stated in an earlier post.... dramatic reductions and not statistical aberrations they are the result of criminal collusion.
You state "Less sick and vacation accrual will have an unexpected negative outcome.", well Buddy, you reap what you sow.
i haven't seen a fire for 5 years...
what do those firement do all day to keep busy?
you can only stay at the donut shop for so long.
40 years a go we all had vegitation in our yards, wood shake roofs, wood paneling, and wood fences.
Now we all have rock yards, rock walls, concretes roofs, and concretes walls.
Just wondering what burns to warrant this kind of protection. I would rather pay the mob for protection, They would run a tight ship for a reasonable fee.
Chuck333,
It takes two parties to negotiate. One being the county and the other being a union representing a specific employee group. The union rep's don't just hand the county rep's a contract and say "sign here".
In your second sentence you seem to imply that FF's in good physical condition shouldn't ever get sick or take sick leave. I hate to burst your bubble but physically fit FF's do get sick and some die from their illnesses. Cancer doesn't seem to care if you're physically fit or not. Got it?
What I fail to understand is why you're whining when this news column is reporting on sick leave reduction.
the truth is a grunt can make 150k when they rack up the overtime---but overtime sitting around a fire station is usually pretty easy money---going out on joy rides to traffic accidents is the majority of calls. years ago they changed the policy so that a fire truck had to be dispatched to every "accident" so it appears as if the firefighters are "doing" so many calls--when in fact they take joy rides mostly and then park the truck in the way of traffic and direct traffic for 150K a year....not a bad spot--yes there are some calls but really how many fires does an average firefighter actually go to in a year??? If you paid a flat rate of 75K for grunts youd have 10000 people waiting in line for the job--so why are you paying 150K???????
Without any controversial feelings and judgement we agree wrong doing is wrong doing, but I don't want any officer or employee working while not feeling well. One and another mistakes are avoided when avoiding "I feel bad but I have to do my responsability" -thinking. Any doctor can tell you going outside makes you feel better. Or any place under pollution clouds where is air fresh enough.
Of course who do you listen the most. Your employer or your doctor. After this you can decide on your best on behalf of yours leaving others outside the room.
oldbrown your first paragraph is very telling. FF union negotiates contract with the county. Well really don't have to go much further than that do we.
As far as the article, yes it is about 57,000 hours not used. If you are so naive to think that it was just a handful of people abusing the system its very sad. You're not one of those people are you? Another thing is it alright to steel money just because your job is dangerous at times? The FF's that have done this should be exposed and at the very least terminated if not prosecuted for theft. Get it!
Chuck, your first paragraph makes no sense. All you did was repeat what I previously wrote. Once again, it takes two to tango. County management negotiates with employee unions or, if it makes you feel better, you can say the employee unions negotiate with management.
To your accusation of me being naive; all I know is what I read and so far it does sound like a "handful" (whatever that is) and from what's been reported those individuals have been disciplined or fired. A "handful" certainly doesn't necessarily indict the whole CCFD. Except in your mind.
As to your question about me being one of these people; although I'm a retired FF, I didn't work for CCFD. I worked for 30 years in a large southern California fire department and I didn't "steel" anything except for a pencil I inadvertently took home after a shift.
And I'm not the least bit surprised that sick leave usage has been dramatically reduced. Due to this investigation I would go to work sick as a dog rather than call in sick. Every guy in that dept. must feel like they have a target on their back so why not just go to work when you're sick?
Obviously, there was some sick leave abuse by a "handful" of people. Sick leave usage is an easy thing to track. It's fire management's responsibility to track suspicious sick leave. I happen to know because at one time I was responsible for tracking such usage. Abusers establish a pattern which coincides with their sick leave days and their work cycle. Sick leave abuse also occurs in the private sector, which is no excuse, it's just a fact.
Having served 30 years, I know FD management doesn't want headlines like this and they'll do everything possible to put policies in place to address sick leave issues. In other words, they've discovered a problem and they're going to fix it. Got it?
Mandatory ring-tone for all LV fireman has just been implemented!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5HRzaOFh...
oldbrown 57,000 hours in the private sector is cause for termination at the very least. And a handful? not hardly. if i was a ff and was sick why would i care what the public thinks? if i'm sick, i'm sick simple as that. you're defending them beacause as you note you were one that watched for abuse. obviously, whether it has been noted and measures have been taken to rectify the situation, the previous years of abuse went un-noticed, or more accuratley ignored.
57,000 hrs less from year to year sounds like a lot. However, there's about 700 employees, most work 24 shifts. 57,000/700 = 81.4/24hrs = a 3.4 shifts per employee per year reduction.
Buddy, using YOUR math each FF owes the taxpayer for 3.4 shifts or a total of 3.4x150,000/24xLVAC time/Smith's grocery time/Recliner time = oh heck, just send a BIG check.
Chuck,
I worked in the private sector for quite a few years prior to becoming a FF. In fact, it was a very large company listed on the Dow and still is. Abuse existed there too and there were few terminations. Now let's establish what you mean when you write "handful". How many people constitute a "handful"? I don't know what industry you work in but if your company bookkeeper was fired for embezzlement, does that mean all employee's in your company embezzled? Or just a "handful" embezzled?
Also, you write that if you were a Clark Co. FF you wouldn't care what the public thought about you taking a sick leave day off. If you'll read my previous post again I was talking about FF's, which you're not. I find your comments contradictory because in your earlier post you accused FF's of being thieves for using sick leave and now you write "If I'm sick, I'm sick".
And let's get this straight, I'm in no way defending any FF that abuses sick leave. In fact, I applaud the CCFD management for firing the offenders. I understand your anger that sick leave abuse went on in the first place but it sounds to me like once it was discovered CCFD management jumped on it pretty quickly and some heads rolled. If there are more abusers, which neither one of us really know, once it's discovered disciplinary action will follow.
Heretic, just because 3.4 shifts were used more in the previous year doesn't indicate a crime or even wrong doing took place. It just means less sick time was used.
Don't forget, after an extensive investigation only about a dozen employee's usage was scrutinized and only 2 were terminated. It wasn't reported much, but even the County stated that last years usage included legitimate sick time usage.
If you became injured while off-duty resulting in surgery. Then were required to take several weeks off to recover per your doctor's orders. All the while you utilized your own sick time that you earned for exactly such an incident.
If that happened to you, do you think it's fair to be labeled an abuser? What if you took time off for a birth? In either case, raw numbers without explanation could appear "abusive". Still sound like abuse? It doesn't to me, but it's definitely less sensational if we start explaining the numbers rather than just paste then into soundbites and headlines.
Buddy, well said.
No, the county did not SAVE "millions and millions of dollars". The county finally reduced, but did not eliminate, one source of annual theft by its employees.
By claiming that we SAVED this money we play into their ploy - they frame the discussion and behave so outrageously that we feel like we've accomplished something when in fact we've allowed them to draw a false baseline.
Everyone needs to step back and try to forget everything they know about current compensation and practices. Really try to start with a blank slate. Then ask yourself what reasonable pay, benefits, retirement age, pension, and other benefits would be. Think of other jobs with similar work hours and other demands as well as skill and education. That should be your baseline.