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Wednesday, June 6, 2012 | 2 a.m.
Regarding Nicholas Cain’s piece May 27 in favor of government subsidies for electric cars:
Cain says “over 20 years, electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids could reduce health care costs by $4.5 billion to $11.2 billion.” Those numbers might be low. We might save more money when medical personnel show up at car accidents to pronounce people dead because smaller, lighter cars equal more fatalities. Funerals are cheaper than Social Security and Medicare payments.
Cain says, some utilities “are offering a month’s worth of electricity for only $50 to $90.” If Obama gets a second term and his promise comes true — “Energy prices will necessarily skyrocket under my cap and trade plan” — rates would increase exponentially!
Lastly, Cain uses the old wive’s tale that we have only 3 percent of the world’s oil reserves. Saudi Arabia reported in 2009 that they have about 713 billion barrels of oil left in the ground. We have at least 800 billion recoverable barrels in Utah, Wyoming and Colorado in the form of oil shale. We have another 6 billion to 24 billion barrels of oil shale in Montana and North Dakota, 10 billion barrels in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge — and that doesn’t take into account our offshore oil.
These car can not go more then 30 miles
Battery companies with billions of Obama dollars are going bankrupt with wear houses full of unsold batteries.
Obama shutdown the real future of hydrogen fuel cell
If it's "our" oil, why are we selling it to private oil companies for a few dollars a barrel when they sell it for over one hundred? Why don't we just contract with them to dig it out of the ground (the cost would be about $16/bbl including exploration) then we would sell it to the refiners at the world market price. Now billions would go into the US treasury instead of into Exxon-Mobil, BP, etc. Moreover, we would sell only to domestic refiners and insist that 100% of the refined product be sold domestically.
Or, we might go further and contract with the refiner to turn "our" oil into gasoline (and other hydrocarbons), take possession of the finished product and distribute to independent gas stations throughout the country. The price to the American consumer can be reduced immensely if we chose not to sell based on World Market pricing.
The writer is apparently unfamiliar with the distinction between a reserve and a resource. Saudi Arabia's oil reserves are economically recoverable while the shale oil reserves of the Colorado Plateau are resources that cannot be recovered under current economic conditions. The shale oil requires major energy input for an oil product to be recovered and consumes 2-5 barrels of water for every barrel of oil recovered. Renewable energy generation is much more economic than recovering oil from shale.
Electric cars have been around for as long as gas powered cars. Over 100 years. Batteries are and have always been the biggest drawback for electric cars. Does Fisker Karma and GM Volt come to mind? As for pollution, the coal needed to power the electricity for electric cars is more worse than gas car emissions. Even Al Gore, the banner waver for environmentalists, and the EPA finally agree with that conclusion.
CarmineD
55 percent of US consumed oil comes from the USA. 52 percent of the imported US oil comes from Mexico and Canada. The rest from the mid-east. Do the math. Energy program to reduce reliance on mid-east oil is a big myth. Perpetrated by liberals and environmentalists to foster a fake agenda.
CarmineD
The problem at this point isn't where your oil comes from, rather that you use any at all. It doesn't matter where your oil comes from because when someone in the middle east sneezes oil prices jump $20/bbl. Oil as a commodity is priced worldwide, so unless you plan on nationalizing the oil companies to provide cheap gas like Saudi Arabia and Venezuela do, the nation it comes from really doesn't matter when we all pay a high price. Exxon isn't going to give you cheaper gas just because the oil was drilled for domestically. The price of oil has everything to do with geopolitical issues outside of North America.
I'm getting over 400MPG in my Volt (about half a gallon per week), so I dont even care what gas prices are since I only have to put 6 gallons of gas in every 2-3 months, plus an extra $30 on my monthly power bill.
How ignorant can some be? How do they get from point A to point B? They drive or take a bus and how are those modes of transportation fueled? With fairy dust? And, just where does the electricity needed to charge and re-charge those batteries come from? The stork? More likely, it comes from generators run with fossil fuels. Just like ethanol has proven to be a scam, so are electric powered vehicles. Ethanol has made the politically connected Archer-Daniels-Midland a wealthy company but has cost the rest of us dearly.
You city folk seem to think that Montana, Wyoming and NoDak are perfectly suited sacrifice areas providing unlimited coal, oil and natural gas so you can continue your consumptive lifestyles. The barley in your beer, the wheat in your bread and the rib-eye on your plate depends heavily on clean water, air and soil......none of which seem to be compatible with fracking for natural gas, strip mining for coal and disposing of associated chemical and overburden. You have made it abundantly clear that you won't take nuke waste at Yucca so why should we rurals in other states destroy our environment for you profligacy?
Big oil companies get a bad rap. Why? The liberal elite media and politicos tell us they are gouging the consumers. Wrong. They make on average about 6 cents on each dollar. Compare to other manufacturing companies in the USA which average 8 cents per dollar and more. Big oil companies are no worse than others. But they get all the negative media and press.
CarmineD
Hmmmmm....Apparently Carmine is now on the pay roll of big oil.
He sure comes running to their aid any time some one makes the argument that we need to move away from our dependence on foreign oil....
I guess Carmine does not look at oil imported from Mexico and Canada as foreign oil....
Every dollar paid out for foreign oil is a dollar that leaves the country (in most cases) to never return. That puts a great strain on America's wealth...
What if we kept 50% of that money in this country? Would that help our economy? Would that help create jobs for American workers?
I would love to see Carmine attempt to answer those question, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen...
Yeah, I'm on their payroll El Lobo. I use gas to drive my Ford Escape and Chevy Camaro.
I have the answer to your irrelavent misguided untrue questions. Vote Obama out, Romney in, and the USA economy will take off in one quarter with more jobs and consumer spending than the last 3 plus years. Look what's happened to the stock market today. Up several hundred points. Why? Wisconsin election results. No coincidence.
CarmineD
El Lobo:
Get the news flash. The US is a global economy. We trade with countries across the North American Continent and the world. And they with us. Our economic futures are linked and coupled. That's what the October 1987 stock market crash proved. Did you forget? Don't they teach you that in your school textbooks?
CarmineD
The market is up because program selling has turned into program buying. May was one of the worst months in history with the DOW down a thousand points. The oscillators were deeply oversold and we are seeing a bounce.
China is spending 10 times what we spend on alternative energy. Europe and Asia are bringing electric cars to market in record numbers. VW is bringing a 240 MPG car to market.
What are we talking about....OIL...We are falling behind in everything.
Oil was 140 bucks a barrel a few months before the recession hit. Had it not been for the collapse we would be paying $7 a gallon plus. Prices were approaching $5 a gallon when Bush was in office.
I was involved in a legal issue with Paine Webber over the 1987 crash. Decades later they still don't have a clue what caused the crash. It was the beginning of program trading.....letting computers buy and sell relative to complex math formulas. These programs combined with a $700 trillion derivatives market are causing nearly all the dislocations that are occurring on a day to day basis.
It's all about politics, keeping "old money" (Bush, et al) rich. Simple as that. If that were not true, then our cars would run on hemp oil. Clothing would be made out of hemp. And we'd write on hemp paper instead of cutting down so many trees for paper. Hemp (non thc pot) cannot make you high. Our founding fathers required you grow it if you moved to the USA. Constitution was written on hemp paper. 1st car, a Ford, ran on hemp oil and was even made out of hemp (super hard plastic). Hemp can be grown anywhere, grows fast, 4 crops per year . Each acre of will net a few tons of hemp. We could be energy independent given the blessed lands we were given that can support millions of acres of hemp without watering, without any fuss. We could build stations around the country to process the hemp into oil then pipe or truck it to refineries to turn it into gas. Why is hemp illegal, if it's not a drug? Oil industry, textile industry, lumber industry have these people called lobbyists that convinced the gov that hemp looked like pot so it should be make illegal. Today, only a few states allow the cultivation of hemp. This is ludicrous! We have the perfect lands to grow hemp but instead we're growing CORN to turn into fuel when so many people are starving around the world? Or can it be that Obama doesn't want $1 a gallon gas (which would be the case) but instead $5 a gallon gas so that people start having to walk or ride bikes, a communist's and environmentalists wet dream! They don't want hemp to make us energy independent. They want high prices, and high prices we'll get. Wait until he's re-elected. Then he'll really go ape chit and start to transform this country. Hope you don't mind walking or riding a bike.
Many good, informed comments are being made, but health care costs depend heavily on the specific price of the care given and the health index of the population.
Far too many people are over weight, don't exercise, take in too many calories and may develop severe physical problems in middle age. The pharmaceutical costs can easily exceed $1000/month. A $40,000 electric car will have no affect on these issues.
Furthermore, the energy coming out of a 110 Volt outlet is only 22%-24% of the fossil energy burned at the power plant. When the inefficiencies of charging and discharging the battery, plus inefficiencies in the motor and gear train are taken into account, greenhouse gases are not lowered by the electric car.
To lower the accident rate, take away the cell phones for starters, don't build smaller electric cars that few can afford.
Hey MickeyA....
Interesting post but I must ask.
If hemp has been around for hundreds & hundreds of years, & we have known of its great value then why have you picked out Obama to critize for not moving forward with the utilization of hemp when most presidents also had the same opportunity to utilize hemp but did not do so?
How about George W, Clinton, George senior, & Reagan? Did they have a blind eye to the potential of hemp? Why didn't they do more with hemp?
Actually, hemp was raised in great abundance during World War II. The government paid farmers to raise hemp which was needed as part of the war effort...
Hey Carmine....
Yes, we're very much involved in a global market but I still ask the question, what's wrong with us working toward energy independence? What is bad about that? Would energy independence help create jobs at home and stimulate the economy?
What's wrong with keeping $300 - $400 billion in this country that could be used for job creation and moving the economy forward?
The largest part of our trade deficit comes from our importation of oil. China is spending hundreds of billions of dollars on developing alternative sources of energy. Are the Chinese simply stupid for doing that? Can we benefit by using the same approach?
El_Lobo:
I really enjoy looking at the current MPG on my Hybrid. On trips to the Grand Canyon 54 MPG with the interior temp a very cool 70 degrees is AWESOME. Feeling the car go silent and not polluting the world at stop lights and stop signs is a great feeling.
Carmine drives a Camaro and has trouble getting out of it in less that 120 seconds. Plus he gets to rant at the ladies at the Terribles he stops in every other day to refill the tank.
He was likely makin fun of JFK when he said we should go to the moon.
Bring on the electrics!!!
JeffFromVegas.....
Carmine fits in quite nicely with the "party of no." The word pro-active is not in Carmine's vocabulary .
In Carmine's mind, this country should revert back to the date 1900....back when there were few unions, no Social Security or Medicare & the Robber Barons ran the show...
Workers could and were fired without a valid reason and America's middle class was very small & struggling to survive.. The average worker worked until he died and health care was only for the rich. A minimum wage law did not yet exist and would not exist for another 40+ years.
Few Americans even attended high school and an eight grade education was quite an accomplishment. A college education was only for the rich elite... Public libraries were a thing of the future and US Senators were bought and paid for by the railroads and big oil...
Less than 2% of the population owned 98% of the nation's wealth and the income tax amendment was still years and years away from passage.
Blacks were denied their rights (Jim Crow was the order of the day) and woman were instructed to "keep silent in Church." They were never ask their opinion about anything, particularly politics, since they were still twenty years away from getting the right to vote....
The one group of Americans that were truly American was the American Indians and they wouldn't be citizens for another 25 years.... Their land had been stolen from them and they had absolutely no voice in anything that went on....
Their male children were taken from them and sent thousands of miles away to boarding schools where they were prohibited from speaking their native language. They were forced to cut their hair and wear the clothing worn by whites.... Any young Indian male who spoke up was severely beaten and anything tribal in nature was prohibited.
Yep, Carmine should have been around a 100+ years ago....he would have fit right in....
This letter is more republican nonsense.
Anti-science, anti-education republicans are the
last people on earth to listen to.
Of course electric cars ARE THE FUTURE.
The Chevy Volt is a great car.
Ignorant republicans are stuck in dirty oil.
We Democrats are moving our country into the
future.
If republicans don't want to help out, they need
to step out of the way.
Republicans have held us back long enough.
Yeah Jeffery, Teamster: A 2012 Victory Red Camaro with black racing stripes and 500 HP. Leaves a GM Volt in the dust every time. And $17 K less than the GM Volt.
CarmineD
A mere 30 percent of hybrid car owners buy another one. Only because of the tax credits and tax incentives that the Gov't pours on to encourage sales. Usually at premium prices over gas powered vehicles that never get recovered by usage when compared to the prices and cost of like gas cars.
For 2012, Consumer Reports recommended the GM $14K Sonic and GM $19K Cruze over the $47K GM Volt. That was before GM stopped production on the Volt to let demand catch up to supply and after the Gov't increased the tax credit on each Volt from $7500 to $10K.
CarmineD
Jeffery:
If sour grapes and sore losers had a popularity club, you'd be the president.
CarmineD
El Lobo:
If you're correct on your energy independence and program, tell me why Obama shot down the Keystone XL Pipeline not just once but twice AND STILL. And has closed down all off shore drilling by the USA oil companies? Doesn't Obama think we need more high paying union construction jobs, an energy independence program and less dependence on mid-east oil like you say? What's wrong with Obama's thinking and actions? Surely if you figured it out, as you say you have, then he can too? One of you has to be wrong? Is it him or you? Inquiring minds want to know.
CarmineD
Carmine...Carmine....
What are we going to do with you? You NEVER answer any of the questions that I ask & then you throw questions toward me in an attempt to change the direction of the conversation....Hmmmm...is that the definition of a smoke screen? Sure appears that way....
I have ask you more than once the question "wouldn't energy independence be a good thing for this country?" I also ask you what effect would there be on our economy if we able to keep $300 - $400 billion in energy savings in this country each year and invest that money in jobs?
I also ask you a question concerning China's attempt to increase the energy that they have available to them by developing other forms of energy & in both cases all I have heard from you are the sound of "crickets."
As I stated earlier.....you have NO idea what the word pro-active means. You are a typical right-winger and would love to see this country go back to the year 1900...
Are you trying to convince me that you have "an inquiring mind?" Ha! Ha! Ha!
Right, and water runs up hill and the Sun comes up in the West...Ha! Ha! Ha!
There's NO guarantee that the oil coming from Canada and sent to the Gulf Coast by the building of a pipe line would be available to us or would help us solve our energy needs....
The same thing is true with additional drilling in Alaska. Any additional oil that's removed from Alaska or comes from off-shore exploration will end up on the world market.
You are correct, we're part of a global market, Ha! Ha! Ha!
Carmine said:
"If you're correct on your energy independence and program, tell me why Obama shot down the Keystone XL Pipeline not just once but twice......"
Actually, Obama has done nothing more than delay a decision on the building of the pipe line until more study can be done... He will make a decision in 2013.
Many people believe that the pipe line is not in the best interests of this country.
Environmentalists have many concerns about the building of the pipe line.... To quote some of the concerns held by various groups:
"One concern is that the pipeline could pollute air and water supplies and harm migratory birds and other wildlife. Its original route crosses the Sandhills in Nebraska, the large wetland ecosystem, and the Ogallala Aquifer, one of the largest reserves of fresh water in the world.
The Ogallala Aquifer spans eight states, provides drinking water for two million people, and supports $20 billion in agriculture.
A major leak could ruin drinking water and devastate the mid-western U.S. economy."
In other words, Obama is wanting a great deal more study before he gives his OK!
I realize that you're a George W Bush guy & you want Obama to follow George's way of doing things....in other words, "always leap before you look."
El Lobo:
The pipeline was studied for 3 1/2 years and passed the State Dept review. Nebraska Gov objected. Then, after Canada Oil agreed to reroute the pipeline around the Aquifer, Nebraska in special session approved it.
BTW, with all the pipelines that span the USA, none has ever polluted a water source. Ever.
Be honest. Obama caved to hollywood greeners to get their do re me.
CarmineD
If you want the truth El Lobo, the real concern about the Ogallala reserve is that the resource is being used up faster than it can be rejuvenated. And has been for years. Don't they teach you that in your school textbooks? Oh, I forgot those liberal textbooks don't teach history, they rewrite it.
CarmineD
WRT China: here's my answer to you. China provides the slave labor for the world without the guilt. I would not use China as an example for any other country to follow. Not with their history of human rights violations.
CarmineD
Hmmmmmm....absolutely nothing new coming from my favorite right-winger, Carmine.
He continues to believe that all of our problems can be traced to the liberal media and to liberal historians....
Yep, its those liberal textbooks that causing the problem.......Ha! Ha! Ha!
Carmine wears "blinders" and believes what ever FOX NEWS & right-wing nuts such as Rush Limbaugh tell him....
The USA that Carmine desires has long since gone away.. It's a shame that Carmine can't find a "time machine" and jouney back to the year 1900.
Of course, with Carmine's last name (DiFazio) his status in 1900 America wouldn't be very high on the food chain.....
I think the term that was regularly used to describe people such as Carmine was "WOP." I wonder if Carmine knows what that term means? Probably not...Ha! Ha! Ha!
Oh well, information like that can only be found in textbooks and Carmine had rather take a beating than read one....
How did "Run Forrest, run" put it?
"Stupid is as stupid does......"
Is it possible that the Gump guy knew Carmine?
What impressed me the second most about Carmine's self-description is his righteousness in stating that he has been a teacher and lecturer on both sides of the pond, and, here's the pompous part, that he has never received a penny for his work!
I'd say it's likely that all things being equal, he was properly reimbursed for the relative value of his contribution, judging by the respect for others demonstrated repeatedly on this sharing forum.
Poor kids!!, having to act civil when something like what we read here keeps plopping out of his mouth and they have to be polite, pay attention and pretend to give a hoot while trying to squelch the laughter in their little hearts so as not to embarrASS the cockamamie sycophantic codger blathering ad nauseum.
This is why kids ride their motorcycles down the hallways, moon buses and smoke dope. This is why kids steal candy bars from 7-11. This is why they get tattoos, piercings and blue hair-dos.
But what I really DO like about Carmine's posts is his accuracy, his reverence and his humility.
He's right about China, and he's right about the Ogallala Aquifer being sucked dry.
He's right, really really right and I have respect for his opinion, but not so much his politics.
Aren't we lucky to have such diversity, such disagreement and such a cast of characters to banter with, bash on and bamboozle?
Here's my opinion of the El_lobo/ Carmine bout...
When we look back on our friends and enemies, and lessons we learned, it should come as no surprise that being able to acquiesce to the wisdom available is far more beneficial than adhering to mistakes, even though the change may feel like a loss of self-respect, for in fact we are better off to lose that battle and win the war just as learning beats the daylights out of fooling around, hoarding ignorance like it's going out of style!
Having smarter friends and smarter enemies is a blessing only when we see the wisdom of CHUCKing our previously held erroneous views in order to CHECK out things through better eyes.
I have said several times that we're all entitled to our opinion......even Carmine!
Our form of government makes sure of that but I'm not sure that Americans 50-75 years from now will still enjoy that right....
Its not all about the evils of big government as most right-wingers will tell you....it's mainly about politicians and "corporate big wigs" who put far greater value & worth on the "all-mighty dollar" than they do on the worth dignity, and welfare of people.
Of course, both the politicians & the "corporate big wigs" will do almost anything to get their greedy little hands on as much green stuff as they can......
Yes, the "greed is good" philosophy is running at the front of the pack......particularly among those over on the right!
Unfortunately, too often success is measured by the size of one's bank roll and not one's contribution to society in terms of making this a better country for every one....
In the minds of those who sleep over on the right, such words as change, progressi and compromise have become dirty words that only silly liberals endorse and use...
*****************************************
I'm reminded what Woodrow Wilson said about conservatives...He said:
"Conservatives are people who basically sit and think and sit and think, but mostly just sit...".
"What impressed me the second most about Carmine's self-description is his righteousness in stating that he has been a teacher and lecturer on both sides of the pond, and, here's the pompous part, that he has never received a penny for his work!"
Lamy
You're misinformed. I received compensation for my profession. I taught for free and still do.
CarmineD
BTW, some of my students have been adults and their children too.
I was a volunteer financial counselor for Prince William County in Virginia for several years assisting adults getting out of debt and arranging repayment plans with their creditors. The program was sponsored by a College in the county. I received no pay and no reimbursment for out-of-pocket expenses.
Many of the adults were professionals and both husband and wife worked.
CarmineD
Thanks for all you do Carmine.
I feel certain that the debts you transplanted will color your reputation and that the joy you feel from your volunteering efforts will continue to illuminate your respect for helping others and inspire your indefatigable self-love.
Your welcome. Actually for the most part I liked the youngsters better than the adults and focused my community service/volunteering on them as a result. If you teach them at an early age, they learn well and are productive members of society.
CarmineD