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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 | 2 a.m.
If we had much less gun control in our country, it is unlikely that the deranged gunman in Colorado would have been able to wreak as much havoc as he did. Someone would have been shooting back.
The Second Amendment states that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Making it difficult, restrictive and expensive to get a concealed carry permit is an infringement, as is harassing or treating with suspicion people who carry a weapon openly.
When it comes to firearms, I would like to see us revert back to the days of the Old West. People would be more polite to each other, and we wouldn’t be having these lone wolf massacres. Further, there is no doubt in my mind that we would have less crime.
An alarm on the fire exit door in the Century theater would have sufficed to clear out the theater.
CarmineD
From what I understand this entire episode happened rapidly, in blinding darkness.We can speculate but it may have been very difficult to control and avoid the outcome.
In reply to Roger Witcher; there are valid arguments on both sides of the gun control issue. However, your statement of, "When it comes to firearms, I would like to see us revert back to the days of the Old West", I find totally irresponsible.
I can't help but to wonder Roger, what your background may be comprised of. It is, in my eyes, equally irresponsible of you to truly believe, as you stated, "Making it difficult, restrictive and expensive to get a concealed carry permit is an infringement, as is harassing or treating with suspicion people who carry a weapon openly."
I used to be an academy instructor in report writing and use of force. In these classes, I would ask the students to raise their hands if they had ever, as an example, in the military locked, loaded and fired at another human being. Those that raised their hands, I asked to write an essay on the chemical changes in their body and what specifically their emotions from these immediate chemical changes were. Not surprisingly, almost every response was a differing level of "fear factors", per se, that each detailed, but controlled. I knew these officers would be responsible with firearms in their possession.
On the other hand, students that had never locked and loaded and fired on another human being in a justified situation I had write an essay on what their perception would be if they were to fire their weapon on another human being. Approximately 92% of students wrote in differing mannerisms of a potential "fear factor" that they would have to regulate but follow through on as is required by their duty. I was proud of them. They could be trusted with a firearm in their possession. Concerning the other remaining 8% I "red flagged".
I have to tell you Mr. Witcher, your opinions on the open wild west mentality with little or any restrictions on purchasing and carrying firearms , in my class, you would have certainly been "red-flagged".
"From what I understand this entire episode happened rapidly"
Mr. Jack:
By all the accounts I heard and read, Holmes took a full 15 minutes to suit up, arm and return from his car back into the theater through the unalarmed fire exit door.
CarmineD
The first thing the shooter did was throw tear gas. Anyone here ever try to aim a gun after being exposed to this gas? In the dark? With a movie strobing varying levels of light at you? What about that body armor? Are we now going to require people to only have weapons that can penetrate body armor? What a thoughtless letter from the "I can never have enough guns" crowd.
The answer to too many guns ... is more guns?
It's this kind of flat earth reasoning that is turning America into a third world nation.
At age 16, I was an usher in a Warner Bros. movie theater. The "emergency" exits were only able to be egressed not ingressed; leave thru one and you could not re-enter once it closed. The shooter must have proped the door open. Why it was not alarmed is a mystery. Ours were. Gotta disagree with Bradley. Every one, except the shooter, was defenseless. Not a good situation and surely points out that being "honest" and obeying the law is no defense against those who do not. Disarming the decent & honorable among us only makes it that much easier for those with evil and criminal intent to go about their business. The answer is for less restrictions on the ability for us to protect ourselves from monsters that would do us harm. We are fortunate to live in a state, NV, that recognizes that as a fact and puts as little obstacles in our way as possible while still working to prevent the crazies from arming themselves.
The author must be joking, right?
Imagine, a man cloaked in body armor, having a running gun battle with others who are firing wildly in the dark. This ain't laser tag folks, not even close, the body count would be incredible.
I've seen police trainees on firing ranges shaking with nerves as they held their weapons about to fire. What makes the author think a civilian would do any better, especially at a target firing back?
It's one thing to sit in a tree blind and blow the brains out of a deer 50 yards away. It's another world when you are involved in a fire fight.
A little known fact, when Gabby Giffords was shot, an armed citizen almost pulled his weapon and shot the men who were detaining the Gifford's shooter.
The American citizenry has been afforded the constitutional right to access all classes of firearms (along with training in their safe and proficient operation) without infringement.
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"The shooter must have proped the door open."
Mr. Fink;
From what I read and heard, that's exactly what Holmes did. The door stayed propped open and unlocked for 15 minutes while the movie was airing and Holmes was gearing up for murder and mayhem. If the door was alarmed, lights automatically go on, and movie goers evacuated, as should for a fire, we would likely not be having this exchange of emails.
CarmineD
In reply to "lvfacts101"; Jerry, you illustrated a very good point about the possibility of the exit door to the movie theatre being propped open. First, it's a shame that there were not young and alert Jerry Fink's on duty at the theatre who would have made sure the fire alarm was operational and that particular exit door remained secured. In another sense, it makes one think, was there a chance that someone on the inside had helped Holmes to gain entry through this fire exit door. And, if the alarm was operational, who disabled it? Next point is if the exit door alarm was not in a daily normal operation, the theatre was in serious violation of fire code. If the latter is fact, in due course of time, the civil lawsuits against the theatre shall be no less than overwhelming.
Jerry, I'm certainly not against Americans Constitutional right to own guns. However, when it comes to an authorized dealer of guns, and the gun owner themselves, there come with these rights definite responsibilities. First, the amount of guns and ammunition that Holmes bought within a short period of time should have been a potential "red flag" that should of at least been reported to the ATF for their probable, (well maybe) investigation. Secondly, and especially in situations where there are groups of innocent civilians, deploying a firearm requires an immense amount of tactical training. Lack of this type of training by untrained civilians has proven to result in more deaths of innocent people.
To just openly say that as a Constitutional right to own guns without restrictions to selling, ownership and proper training is like giving absolute control of peoples safety to the criminal element.
FEAR 24/7, it divides and controls. Guns are a symptom of a bankrupt mentality held the most by those with guns. Poor pathetic creatures who are unaware the problem they FEAR is one made-up and nurtured by the Elite to control them.
The letter above is moronic in total. This notion guns make you safer is simply not backed up by the facts, sorry. Guns kill people, fact. Assault weapons kill even more and have no place in a civilized Society.
They are controlling you America. Making you lock your doors. Making you wish everyone you meet a "be safe" "take care" "call me when you arrive safely", not a "peace" not a "love you" not a "hurry back" or even "happy trails". Fear this fear that and run to your gun and police for safety over what amounts to shadows.
Holmes was in body armor, head to toe, used tear gas in the dark and there are hundreds of thousands of pathetic losers who think the reason 12 people died is because nobody shot back, surreal.
In reply to "VernosB"; your post of 7:58AM said it all Vern. Excellent points to your post. Well done!
Mr. Wetcher, "revert back to the days of the old west." Don't think for one minute that the old west didn't have crazies back then shooting innocent people.Not a good idea,more guns on the street brings,more deaths,more robberies,more accidents,more dead law inforcement officers.At this point no one has a quick fix,but we sure need one.
""more guns on the street brings,more deaths,more robberies,more accidents,more dead law inforcement officers. At this point no one has a quick fix, but we sure need one."
Nonsense.
Historically proven FACT, the most effective deterrent to crime ridden areas throughout America has been its armed citizenry.
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In a state like Colorado there were more than likely armed folks in the theaters. It is constant training that increases proficiency. I was with the Santa Monica Police Dept. for 22 years and was involved in several shootings. More often than not these things are over before you even know what the hell is going on.
Even in war tens of thousands of rounds are fired for every assailant that is hit. Self defense is not as easy as people think it is, even for professionals.
Vernos is dead on!!!!
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012...
There have been 51 rampage killings across the US in the last few decades. Many in states like Texas with ridiculously liberal gun laws. To the best of my knowledge not one has ever been stopped by an armed intended victim.
This is a prime example of magical thinking -- that we'd be a more "polite" society if we were more heavily armed, like those dear hearts and gentle people in the politically-correct, etiquette-conscious "Old West" were. Just ask the Indians. It was such a peaceful, law-abiding time, after all, with no lone wolves. No massacres.
The second amendment also mentions something about the right to bear arms being tied to the need for a "well-regulated" civilian militia. Americans don't seem very interested in respecting that part of the constitution.
Roger the writer: There's help available
So MUCH ignorance, so little time...
"epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault."
"The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times MORE LIKELY to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...
Of course, this has been shown to be the case OVER, & OVER, AND OVER...
Why do people 'believe what they want to believe', regardless of the TRUTH?
http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/2012/03...
I'm NOT OPPOSED to your owning a gun...
Just that you acknowledge the FACTS.
I was recently questioned about my purchase of a couple dozen AK-47's that I bought for personal use and to give to my grandchildren and friends as gifts. Can the ACLU or the NRA get these people off my back.
I have no criminal record and most people say I'm "funny".
I'm in favor of a citizens right to own a handgun or a rifle. I see no good reason why we should be allowed to buy military assault weapons and 100 round magazines. To me, if we are going to allow that, we should ask where do we draw the line? Are machine guns ok? What about a rocket propelled grenade?
People are going to go crazy and people are going to get murdered and even if we banned all guns, some criminals and other crazies would get hold of guns. But if we don't allow the sale of bombs, machine guns and RPG's, why do we find it necessary to allow the sale of military assault weapons that are able to murder 100 people with a single 100 round magazine? Because it is our 'right' to have them? To me that is a weak argument... and I would fight to make sure Americans are allowed to buy and possess handguns and rifles.
Michael
In the U.S.about 35%-45% of Americans have guns.Source wiki.answers.com,Last year there were 8,778 murders in the U.S.from guns.The British on the other hand have the strictist laws pertaining to gun ownership,hard to find the exact numebers of actual owners.Britan had 58 murders last year from guns,source ripley8.newsvine.com. Point being less gun ownership, results in less murder's.Is this the right approach can't say, but the numbers are very interesting.
In the 1950s an MIT student built a primitive nuclear device in his basement. He was arrested. I say let the kid have his nuke for self defense!!!The feds have no sense of humor.
In this state you CAN buy a machine gun if you pay the tax and get the federal stamp.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...
Sam....murders are not the only issue. Over 100,000 gun related deaths and injuries when you include suicide. The cost to our medical system is staggering. Two of the kids shot in Colorado will have bills in the millions. Factor in the rest that were shot and you are talking one hell of a financial hit so a fool could see himself on TV with red hair. The whole thing is a publicity stunt for this kid.
Having been a law enforcement officer and growing up around guns and the ideas that the letter writer puts forth, I can only strongly disagree with his premise.
The problems we face today are different than in the past. This is something people of the right don't want to understand. Time changes societies whether you like it or not. There are many people in our society that should not posses firearms and have no recorded history of mental instability to weed them out.
As is always stated, we are not concerned with the law abiding sane people, just the lawless and insane. Yet the writer seems to feel that gunning them down in the streets or shopping mall when they finally do snap is the logical cowboy solution. Is that really the kind of society we want where everyone carries freely and problem people are dealt with by gun fights in the streets and local establishments? Isn't that the exact problem we faced in Colorado?
Suppose there were gun carrying citizens in the theater as our letter writer.. suppose they drew their weapon... would they know who to shoot at if there were say 3 other gun carrying citizens also shooting? How would they manage the situation? Maybe they would begin shooting at each other thinking the others are involved? What if they shot another citizen by accident? How would the police identify the perpetrator from the other shooting citizens? There are in fact limited situations where having a weapon in your possession would prove valuable to your safety or that of others around you. Even trained officers are frequently shot with their own weapon by an unarmed suspect during an arrest.
These child like ideas of old west gun play in the streets are the fantasies of 12 year olds, not those of adults. Carrying a weapon is a serious responsibility and carries with it serious consequences if you actually shoot another person. Most gun carrying individuals never draw their weapons because of this. They carry primarily because it provides them with a personal feeling of security and control. Both of which are mostly in their own minds and not reality.
Gun proliferation is such a major issue we are beyond the point of no return. Some estimates point to 270 million guns in the country. If guns made a country safe we would be the safest on earth with almost as many guns as people. Not that way. Of the guns I took of crooks through the years many were stolen in burglaries. I think the gun shop in Henderson lost nearly 200 guns in one heist. Were ANY recovered???Some are probably in Chicago.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/2...
Bravo bimmerdude! I agree totally, in particular with...
"They carry primarily because it provides them with a personal feeling of security and control. Both of which are mostly in their own minds and not reality."
I learned this many decades ago and got rid of my own SW 365 Combat Mag.
Afterwards, I was free of fear and false security. Have never needed one since, and I feel no less secure without one. I control my situations the best I can with my brain and commonsense. I reject being a prisoner of paranoia.
Correction: 357 Duh!
I have an Idea there Roger Ramjet. All movie theaters can hand people a loaded 9mm instead of a ticket stub when they buy the ticket.
Gun control is pretty loose most places and I would consider it reasonable already. Maybe some changes need to be made in NYC, DC, and Chicago and license reciprocity will do that when it is adopted, holefully soon.
But, I understand why the gun rights people are still against any additional gun control proposals. The libs shot themselves in the foot with the 5-4 Supreme Court decisions. Everyone knows those decisions could get reversed if the Supreme Court changes so it pays to stay militant in the legislative arena in case the constitutional law changes. If it had been a 9-0, 8-1, or even 7-3 decision and provided guidance as to what exactly is legal gun control and what is not, the militancy could be far less. Instead they decided they want to keep fighting this war and are shocked, shocked when the opposite side is still contesting the war that is made on them vigorously.
Colorado has an open carry law, which means that guns can be openly carried while loaded. Colorado also has statewide recognition of concealed carry permits, which means that one can carry concealed in public as well, throughout the state.
1. Someone who saw Holmes going into the theater armed could not just shoot him down because carrying open is lawful in Colorado. Until Holmes' actually opened fire, anyone shooting him would have been at risk of being arrested and tried.
2. If somehow we could have read Holmes' mind, our ordinary weapons and ammunition would not have stopped the massacre because it would not have penetrated his ballistic helmet, body armor, or ballistic protectors on his groin and legs. About the time we realized that our rounds were just annoying him, we'd have to stop and reload, while he could just keep on sending rounds our way.
3. What saved things from being much, much worse was that Holmes' primary weapon was an AR-15, which is the civilian version of our M-16. It jammed (no surprise) and Holmes' was not able to clear the jam. So he was left with slower-firing weapons of less capacity.
4. The "Wild West" to which the letter writer wishes to "return" is Hollywood and Spaghetti Western fantasy.
Mr. Witcher,
Who gets prosecuted for murder when you empty your magazine into the crowd of people running away from the gunman, in the smoke and darkness? The only person who wouldn't get wounded was the gunman in body armor.
Who gets prosecuted for murder when you kill me, another moviegoer with a gun trying to protect myself from the actual gunman, because you saw my pistol and mistook me for the actual gunman?
How many more people would die if 100 armed people opened fire in a crowded movie theate (1500 more rounds?)?
I recall a 40-something Texas women who lost both parents to a deranged shooter in a restaurant. She said that sadly she had tuned in her concealed weapons permit a week or two before the shooting.
Am I the only person to notice, that those people who worked in or are associated with law enforcement, believe civilians armed in an incident such as Aurora is a very bad idea?
First, despite Mr. Witcher's assertions, so-called "gun control" laws aren't very effective. There are numerous ways to get around them, from falsifying documents, to the black market, to un/underregulated online markets and gun shows.
Second, Mr. Witcher asserts no factual correlation between the number of guns and the crime rate. He boldly asserts something that isn't bore out in the facts.
Third: "Making it difficult, restrictive and expensive to get a concealed carry permit is an infringement, as is harassing or treating with suspicion people who carry a weapon openly."
I'll take that argument seriously when GOP groups around the country stop restricting the right to vote by passing inane and expensive laws regarding voter ID.
As usual, the double standards of the GOP are as plain as day.
No VernosB you are not the only one. Guns are dangerous. As Holmes found out, many times they fail to work properly because most of them are built like caca. Look most people who buy guns are not that smart. Manufacturers know this and make junk. The babies can't buy enough of this crud.
Roger, here are the statistics:
Last year, there were about 9,000 murders in the US due to guns; in the U.K., there were 39.
Total number of murders in the US, just over 15,000; in the UK, there were 648.
Deaths estimated due to lack of health insurance per year in the US, between 30,000 and 45,000; in the UK zero.
Britain has the same freedoms of speech, assembly, petition of government that is claimed here in the US. They also have more freedom of religion and are better educated. One vast improvement, the British Government doesn't falsify information to create wars around the world.
So why do we guns? What is UN-American about Affordable Health Care?
You claim is that lesser gun Control reduces crime. You must believe that murder is not a crime, only a right of passage where god sweeps his mistakes under the carpet, or sod, whichever is nearest.
I think we need to ditch the 2nd Amendment altogether as the relic it is. You have to chose, the Military or a Militia, don't need both. The Gun nuts want it both ways. Sorry try again.
SunJon,
Thank you for the eye opening statistics and comparisons.
Powerful demonstration!
peacelily,
Please look up the murder rate per capita. The UK is still below us, but it does put it in a better perspective, I think. We are at about 4.5 murders per/100k, while the UK is about 1.5 or a little higher. Raw numbers can be misleading.
If you look at other European countries, who also have very strict gun control, we are decidedly below them.
BCchap says: "I can't help but to wonder Roger, what your background may be comprised of. It is, in my eyes, equally irresponsible of you to truly believe, as you stated, "Making it difficult, restrictive and expensive to get a concealed carry permit is an infringement, as is harassing or treating with suspicion people who carry a weapon openly."
Chap...you're trying to hard kid.
On the gun control issue - Every time there's a shooting, we suffer the dolts who cut and past the same NRA template - "Guns don't kill people...people do" - yabadabado! Heroin does not kill people...hypodermic needles do?
No one can argue the stats...Our gun violence is # 1 and our freedoms to own guns are second to none -on a global scale. Here's something I think is very telling about "the American gun culture" In SE Asia, gun violence is very low - except in one nation...The Philippines. Anyone care to guess why that may be the case?
Guns are one of the few controls the Elite have over Americans. Guns invoke FEAR, and fear is debilitating, not uplifting. The key is to keep Americans isolated. Guns do that at an unconscious level. Divide and "thus" Conquer is the operating system of the Elite.
The Aurora shooting was basically about a person who could not handle the isolation anymore. His fantasies no longer satisfied.
People in this country are ghetto. They do not embrace a rich lifestyle, they buy a gun and figure everybody is out to do them harm. This attitude becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Millions of people wander their days hoping to get a "rise" out of another. Lacking the basic personal skills necessary for human interaction and saddled with a mountain of half-truths, propaganda, and outright lies, their only feeling of being alive is to irritate.
In another bizarre example of isolation we have learned Holmes sent a personal journal to a school psychiatrist a week prior to the Shooting. But due to nonchalant mail policies, and what appears to be a general lack of engagement and concern by all at this school, the journal sat in a mail room until yesterday.
The problem is Fear. The problem is everybody wants to be a bada$$ and get a rise out of another. We all have to prettier, bigger, more slick, or clever, or risk being NORMAL. No profit in normal. It is time to tell the Capitalists to shut up and learn to be yourself. Accept yourself as you are and understand others have the same issues you do, laugh a little. The World is not nearly as dangerous as they want you to believe.
This is some sort of joke letter, right?
Here's an article based on ATF data which refutes the letter above in totality http://articles.cnn.com/2001-08-30/justi...
Vernos: I'm a former federal agent and a former Nevada Peace Officer. I favor individual rights to carry arms but not assault rifles, grenades, and such.