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Bishop Gorman tackle Zach Singer stands over Reed High School running back Ty Shepard after stopping him for a loss during the 4A championship football game Saturday, Dec. 3, 2011 at Damonte Ranch High School in Reno. Gorman won their third consecutive title 72-28.
Published Tuesday, Feb. 28, 2012 | 2:21 p.m.
Updated Tuesday, Feb. 28, 2012 | 5:09 p.m.
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When the Del Sol High football team lost in the 2009 state championship football game to Bishop Gorman High, the administrators at the school still considered themselves champions.
Their argument was simple: Public school Del Sol didn’t have the resources to compete with private school powerhouse Gorman, saying their 62-21 defeat was nothing to feel ashamed about.
So, officials hung a banner near the entrance of the Del Sol campus the remainder of the school year proclaiming their football team as public school champions. The players often say their state title game was the week before when they defeated public Basic High in the state semifinals.
“We were the highest ranked public school team in the state, so I thought (the banner) would be appropriate,” said Besty Angelcore, Del Sol’s principal from 2008 to 2010. “We certainly didn’t win the state title, but we advanced further than any other public school.”
But Bishop Gorman High’s dominance against public schools might be coming to an end.
Officials from the Nevada Interscholastic Activities Association, the governing body of high school sports, announced Tuesday it will discuss potentially splitting the playoffs for private and public school teams. The item will be discussed March 6 during a NIAA Board of Control meeting at the Peppermill Hotel Casino in Reno.
While the proposal includes all private schools, it’s obviously an issue because of the success Bishop Gorman has enjoyed in recent years.
Gorman has won four of the last five large-school classification football championships, including scoring 72 points last fall in beating Reed High of Reno for their third straight crown. The Gorman football team has one loss to an in-state opponent in the last five years.
Bishop Gorman players gather around the 4A state championship trophy after defeating Northern Nevada's Hug High 96-51 at Lawlor Events Center in Reno.
In basketball, Gorman has won three of the last four state titles, including last week beating Hug High of Reno 96-51 for the championship. The Gorman basketball team lost in the 2011 state semifinals, being upset by Bishop Manogue, a Reno private school. In baseball, Gorman has won six straight state titles.
The NIAA issued a statement Tuesday announcing the addition of the item to the meeting agenda but said officials won’t be commenting on the issue. The item will only be discussed at next month's meeting and must be put on a future agenda for a vote. There is no timetable for when a private school league, which is common in other cities, could be voted on.
Gorman officials weren’t surprised to learn of the proposal but found the timing a little odd.
A realignment plan, which is set to debut in the fall, was partially created to help create a competitive balance. Schools such as Gorman, Palo Verde and Centennial will stay in the more competitive top division, while struggling schools, such as Clark or Western, will play in a lower league in which they will be more competitive.
That will eliminate some of the lopsided scores by which Gorman has beaten opponents. Games against Pahrump Valley, for instance, weren’t fun for either side to be part of.
“We really feel like this is a bit premature,” said Grant Rice, Gorman’s assistant athletic director and basketball coach. “With the work the School District and state has put in with realignment the last year or so — and a lot of people worked hard on that — and with open enrollment in its second year, the state of Nevada needed to wait a few years to see if it worked.”
About 30 minutes after Hug beat Green Valley High last week in the basketball state semifinals, the Hug players emerged from the locker room at Lawlor Events Center in Reno to the song “We are the Champions” by Queen. The players immediately started jumping up and down in celebration like they were state champions.
Their logic was that beating Gorman was impossible, making the win against Green Valley — the tournament’s last remaining public school — the de facto state championship game.
Creating a private school league could force Gorman into playing an independent schedule — an idea school officials adamantly oppose, Rice said. There are roughly 12 private schools statewide with athletic programs, but most are lower-classification schools such as The Meadows, Agassi Prep and Lake Mead Christian Academy, and some don’t have football programs.
Faith Lutheran, which captured four straight 3A state basketball championships from 2005-08, is located about 10 minute drive from Bishop Gorman in Summerlin and would be the Gaels' only competition. But Faith Lutheran is far from a power, especially in football, where the Crusaders have struggled the last few years after being promoted to the large-school classification. Bret Walter, the Faith Lutheran athletic director and basketball coach, is also the small-school liaison to the board and said he could not comment.
In past seasons, several public school teams have refused to schedule nonleague games against Gorman, forcing the Gaels to play a national schedule in several sports. In the three major sports of football, basketball and baseball, they’ve thrived against the top-tier competition and have been ranked almost exclusively in the top-10 — which has brought much exposure to the area.
Still, talk with every coach and player at Gorman and they will tell you the same thing: the No. 1 goal is to win a state championship. And not a private-school league title against inferior competition.
“Every kid growing up in Nevada or any state, you want to win games and be part of a special team,” Rice said. “Kids want to win their league, and on the special years, they want a chance to compete against the best in state for a championship.”
Public schools coaches and administrators have long argued the unlimited boundaries from which Gorman can attract players gives it an advantage. It’s the same argument in other cities — several of which have leagues strictly for private schools.
Bishop Gorman kicks to Armwood to open the second half during their game Friday, August 26, 2011. Armwood won the game between the two nationally ranked teams 20-17
And when most public schools are on a strict budget or limited in their fundraising, they argue Gorman is again at an advantage because of the resources of its alumni. Add in the school’s new multi-million-dollar campus, complete with state-of-the-art athletic facilities, and some public school coaches feel they can’t compete.
Liberty High’s football team lost to Gorman in last year’s state semifinals, but twice had leads and only trailed by one point late in the third quarter before losing by 20-plus points. It’s a good example that beating Gorman is possible.
“Our kids are working hard and believe we can play with them,” Liberty coach Rich Muraco said. “They won’t stay on top forever. That is what I preach to our kids.”
But Muraco, like most public school coaches, also sees the other side of the equation.
“Of course I see both sides to the argument,” he said. “I see the side where it is hard to compete with Gorman’s limitless funds and backing they have from alumni. A lot of public schools don’t have that. We have limited financial ability, and it does play a big part into your success on the field.
“If you have better facilities, more coaches involved, better workout equipment, then your product on the field will be better. So, I obviously, understand how people feel about Gorman.”
Gorman hasn’t always been a power, though.
Until Gorman won the 2007 title in football, it had gone nearly 25 years without a championship. In some years, it didn’t even make the playoffs. Gorman’s 2006 baseball title was the first in school history.
Gorman isn’t the only school attracting kids from all over the valley, either. The Rancho High baseball team won the Sunrise Regional title the past two years, taking athletes from all over Southern Nevada into its magnet program at the North Las Vegas school and forming a baseball power that was arguably a bounce or two away from winning state.
And through open enrollment, where students are allowed to change schools — and, more importantly, immediately be eligible to play sports — to populate schools with decreasing enrollment, several programs have tried to load up their football program.
At Durango, Arie McQuaig (Palo Verde), Gene Germaine (Sierra Vista) and Marcus Williams (Desert Oasis) joined forces last year on the open enrollment program, but Durango took fourth in the Southwest Division. Liberty is also taking advantage of the open enrollment program and will have key players in 2012 from schools such as Silverado and Spring Valley in its starting lineup.
“I’m sure there are instances of public schools recruiting,” Green Valley High Principal Jeff Horn said. “But at Gorman, there are no boundaries, their donor base is unlimited and the facilities itself attract certain athletes a public school can’t.”
While the talks are very premature and there is no timetable for action, don’t expect this issue to go away anytime soon. After all, it has been rumored — and wanted by several on the public school circuit — for years.
“Gorman has not always been a giant, and they might not always be a giant,” Angelcore said. “But the perception has always been that because they can invite students to join their campus, we don’t stand a chance at the public schools.”
Ray Brewer can be reached at 990-2662 or ray.brewer@lasvegassun.com. Follow Ray on Twitter at twitter.com/raybrewer21.
Seems fair... should almost move them to the Mountain West. Not entirely sure Gorman couldn't beat the Rebels.
This is how it should work. If the competition is too tough, lower the bar. Maybe the NIAA should give out participation ribbons to everyone instead of crowning one state champion.
About time. Gorman's been able to recruit kids for years-- and it shows. More power to them, but they shouldn't be compared to public schools because they don't play by the same rules.
Leave it to the "politically" correct to come up with "solutions." Can't compete? We'll dumb it down for you so your little psyche isn't hurt! Can't comprehend math, science or English? We'll do away with grading students to save their little egos! Can't hit, kick or dribble a ball? We'll open competition to everyone and not keep score. Problem solved. Yeah, right, and when the little rug-rats get out into the real world and compete for a job, what then? Oh, well, we'll pass laws making it discriminatory to expect anyone from knowing how to operate a lathe, scalpel or tractor trailer, etc. when they apply for employment. See how easy it is to do things "politically" correct?
That's what you need to do. If the competition is too good, you get rid of them. Give everyone participation ribbons. Nobody is a looser. I had two kids graduate from Gorman and they went there to get a great education, even though both lettered in multiple sports.
So here's what you people can do. Get rid of the top of the class, have the tail wag the dog, don't piss anyone off, and whatever you do, don't promote a Christian education....no no no, keep it secular.
Don't raise your standards, lower the standards of others. Everyone's a winner. Pathetic morons.
I'm not a Gorman fan, and I really do understand the gripe that a Chaparral High School athlete has with getting blown out by Gorman, but I don't see how this solves anything.
(1) How many private schools are there? Are they just going to keep playing each other several times each year? This isn't like Texas where there a lot of private schools to match other private schools up with.
(2) How will the 2A private schools like it now that they have to compete with Faith Lutheran and Gorman? That seems a lot more unfair than Gorman vs. Palo Verde.
(3) Won't the open enrollment public schools just take the place of Gorman and beat all the other public schools because they'll have the same advantage Gorman had?
(4) What happens next year when all of Gorman's senior starters leave and Gorman is no longer dominant? I'd figure the Palo Verde-talent-level schools would like a crack at them then.
Finally, if you look at the national rankings for every high school sport, you'll see that they're dominated by private and open enrollment schools. The reason is simple, if you're a great athlete, you're not going to get the same recruiting exposure or coaching if you go to a school that finishes 1-20 every year, so you opt for the private school. I think it's really neat to have Findlay and Gorman in the national rankings every year because it puts Las Vegas prep sports on the map. Even if public and private schools are split, I hope the change doesn't hurt the progress made over the last 10-15 years in Nevada prep sports.
All I can say is, it's about time. These schools recruit, and they compete against schools who are stuck with whoever shows up to try out. Many of them rival small colleges (and in some instances exceed them) in terms of facilities, equipment and personnel. The playing field is definitely not level.
Way overdue! But funny that they had to trash the Northern teams before they would consider it!
i sincerely hope this goes through. a school that can recruit from all over the city, state, and region just doesn't belong playing public schools that may have difficulty filling a roster and funding sports programs. it's really no different than a 3,000 strong urban high school playing a k-12 rural high school where players have to play both ways just to have a team. the playing field just isn't level.
i would think gorman would applaud this move too. bashing weaker opponents doesn't really make them look better. perhaps gorman should follow in the footsteps of some private schools back east and start playing other regional powerhouses. they can be a big time national high school sports program or they can shoot fish in a barrel. they can't have it both ways.
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Gormanites furious!! May lose recruits to public schools now.
It's about time. Bishop Gorman has been robbing the Las Vegas community of local talent. I wonder if that is the way the Catholic archdiocese works. I was born and raised Catholic and I don't remember ever being taught to rob, to achieve goals. What happened to fair competition. Findlay Prep at least has an admiral policy of not recruiting from the state of Nevada, in an effort to not take local talent. It's unfortunate and concerning that Bishop Gorman (a religious based school) doesn't practice the same policy. I'll admit that is a good thing to see local talent being recognized nationally, but the NIAA should make the necessary adjustments to encourage fair competition.
"Until Gorman won the 2007 title in football, they had gone nearly 25 years without a championship. In some years, they didn't even make the playoffs. Gorman's 2006 baseball title was the first in school history"......
Sounds like people are a little jealous now that Gorman is winning some championships....nobody was clamoring about the "unfairness" prior to 2006, were they? Just because other schools programs are mediocre and have coaches that don't instill discipline in their players, doesn't mean that they should punish a private school that demands excellence and actually teaches discipline to their players.
No matter what they do, Go Gaels!
Mr. Brewer, I just saw the update and you really hit all of the important points on both sides. Very fair article.
That Gorman was not always the best is precisely the point. In the last decade, Gorman built a 100 million campus that rivals many private colleges. It built professional athletic facilities for high school students. And it attracted donors that give millions of dollars for athletic scholarships. It has no business competing for state championships against public schools anymore.
It has bought itself a national level program. Let it compete nationally.
Some of you are missing the point. It's not about lowering the bar. It's about FAIRNESS! It is completely unfair for public schools to compete against a private institution like Gorman. They have the money, the power, the facilities and they recruit the best players from around the valley. The only ones that don't understand this are Gorman grads and sympathizers. BG should not be eligible for league or state titles so long as they don't have to follow the same rules as the public schools. As KCM stated, "It has bought itself a national level program. Let it compete nationally." Findlay Prep doesn't play in the public leagues...AND...they CRUSHED Gorman...perhaps they should be the state champions in basketball?!?!?
I am not a 99-percenter...I swear to you. But unless the have-nots...the administrators, coaches, athletic directors and students from the public schools make their voice heard...the Gormans of the world and its benefactors will continue to buy whatever they want....state titles including state titles. If anything, high school sports should be about fairness...not who has the most money. Contact the NIAA and make your voice heard. Call
Eddie Bonine
Executive Director
(775) 453-1012
ebonine@niaa.com
Bob Sullivan
President
(775) 333-5050 or email him:
rsulivan@washoe.k12.nv.us
I think the fact Gorman has an assistant athletic director speaks for itself. Public schools in CCSD have one athletic director who is the AD half of the time and a techer the other half of the time.
BillyVegas - Thank you for posting contact information for the NIAA
First off..."Bishop Gorman is the best team in the worst state for high school football"...I heard this quote while watching a televised Gorman game.
1) Gorman no longer has to recruit..."if you build they will come"
2) The CCSD could control this...they choose not to...
3) Public schools in Orange County (Mission Viejo, Edison, Trabuco Hills, Los Alamitos...then there is Long Beach Poly-LA COunty) would trounce Gorman year in year out...Gorman played and barely beat a very weak Servite team at home.
Sounds like a bunch of bitter people to me. Clark loaded up for basketball and got beat. Durango gets new players that started at their other schools for football and get beat. I promise you that every kid involved in sports at Gorman, and not just the best kids but everyone, works harder then any of you know. That is the difference between Gorman and public schools. Last time I checked weights weigh all the same in every weight room so stop complaining and start working hard and you will see results I promise.
We are creatures of our environment. If your environment is set with low standards, you never have to aim higher to compete with the best. So you enable these kids by telling them they no longer have to compete with NBA or NFL quality players. What! No wonder these kids don't get a good education. It's all part of the total package. You morons tell them it's OK. It's because of you who dumb down these kids and then bitch because the graduation rate is low and the proficiency tests are, By some standards, the lowest in the country and you people are proud of that. You pathetic morons.
I am so proud both my kids went to Gorman.
I am so proud both my kids lettered in a few sports.
I am so proud both my kids got a great Catholic education.
I am so proud my kids had teachers that wanted to teach.
I am so proud my kids raised their standards.
I am so proud both my kids got a great education at UNR, a state school.
I am so proud both my kids contribute to society.
I am so proud both of my kids have great careers.
I don't feel sorry for you or your kids.
I had a parent tell me Gorman recruits for the varsity quiz. As a parent, booster, and someone who wants the best for my kids I can't believe the valley is not jumping into these magnet programs. These are the avenues the public school system has to compete. Parents choose to complain about gorman instead of pushing your kid to succeed in life. 96 percent of gorman grads go to college. Clark county public schools fight to stay about a graduation rate of 60 percent. If you think its lopsided now, wait till gorman plays a national schedule. Every athlete in town will stand in line to be on ESPN. If it wasn't for Gorman and Liberty playing a great game, Liberty would never of been invited to play a showcase in LA. The valley needs Gorman. They have been here since 1954. Its time to raise the standard for all. Not throw out the ones that are calling attention to what can be a great Las Vegas.
Alright now here is my 2 cents. Lets start from my hometown of Kalihi Hawaii. Back in the day around the 80's there was a private school by the name of St. Louis that dominated the football scene for about 18 years. From 1985-1990 the Saint Louis Crusaders went on a 55 game win streak. From 1986-1999 the Crusaders took the Prep Bowl/State Title championships. From 1985-1992 the Crusaders were killing teams by 5-6 TD's. From '93-'99 a lot more of the games started to get closer. Still the Crusaders did have their blow out games but against some of the better teams they was doing enough to win. In 2000 the Crusaders lost the State Title game to Kahuku ending their Prep Bowl/ State Title championship streak to 18 straight seasons.
I bring all this to attention cause I know what a lot of you are thinking that is about time and that its only fair that Gorman gets kicked out, but let me continue with my story. In Hawaii about the late 90's a lot of the athletes that Saint Louis was trying to recruit started to say "NO" to the powerhouse football program. These athletes started to play for their hometown school. A sense of I want to be on the team that beats the Crusaders was going around. Kahuku was the first to break that 18 year mold with a smash mouth brand of football. Than other teams started to come out of slumber and started to make noise in the arena that was dominated by the crusaders. Kahuku opened the doors for other teams like Punahou, Kamehameha, Leilehua, Farrington, Castle and Waianae to compete for the coveted State Title.
Kids have to realize that yes Gorman does give you that wanted exposure to the masses, but you don't have to go there to get yourself recognized by college recruits. You just have to work hard on and off the field to make it. Enroll yourself in whatever combine or football clinic you can. I think teams like Arbor View, Palo Verde, Liberty, Las Vegas, Foothill and some other teams are just a tackle away from beating Gorman. Everyone can still complain about money and recruiting, but I believe that hard work during the off season and coaching will help close the gap between Gorman and the rest of the elites. Shoot Liberty was the closest in getting an upset against the gaels last year and I think the Patriots have an even better chance this year. I'm jus saying.....
"Working Hard, Discipline, The Will To Succeed, Values"....That's the bottom line. Gorman instills all of those into their students in both the Athletic & Academic part of student life. When Gorman loses, they don't blame the other team, they blame themselves and get at it in the weight room and field to work harder for the next game.
As kstock24 pointed out above, weights weigh the same no matter where you are....and to expand on that point, a football field is 100 yds no matter where you play. Kids have a choice to stay after school, work out, practice their plays, and study. Gorman requires their student athletes to do all of the above...do other schools?
When our Son had football practice and offseason weight training at Gorman, all within the rules of the state....his friends at Public schools chose not to participate in those activities at their school and took time off during the offseason...
It's not a matter of booster money & facilities...it's a matter of culture. If it was a matter of money & facilities...then why aren't Meadows & Faith Lutheran winning state titles? They also have a ton of money and great facilities. Has anyone seen the Tuition for either school? Faith is about the same as Gorman & Meadows is almost twice as much! Their campus is just as nice as Gorman's. That argument is BS....
If these Public School parents cared about fairness, they should start caring about their child and teach them how to work hard, discipline, success....it all starts in the home.
Go Gaels!
I helped build the new campus in the Southwest area. On Fridays the general contractor would barbecue steaks for the construction workers. Needless to say Tiberti Construction, who is a sponsor of Gorman HS has deep pockets. Their athletic facilities are comparable to a small college and to nothing any other HS in Vegas has to offer. Their advantage of getting any student/athlete in the Las Vegas area to come there is unfair. Most of the students are driving expensive cars and trucks and such. You have to wonder how some of these kids and their families can afford the tuition?
Sinatra:
You have got to be kidding me with the "Work Hard" mantra. Kids in public schools work as hard as your white collar athletes. The difference is this: 1. The athlete at Gorman is superior to the public school athlete. Hard work can only do so much, then talent takes over. Especially if that talent works hard. 2. Gorman does not play by the same rules. They get to practice in the spring and make it mandatory which is not allowed in CCSD. They also get to use their own equipment at football camps in the spring which again is not allowed for public schools. 3. No one, not Meadows or Faith has remotely similar facilities to Gorman. You show an 8th grader those facilities and an opportunity to be on ESPN then they will certainly choose Gorman over their home school.
Here is what I suggest. Give Gorman a zone, make them play by the same set of rules as the rest of the public schools when it comes to athletics. It's ridiculous that students can transfer to Gorman and don't have to sit out 180 days to play varsity sports. But, if a students leaves Gorman for a public school they have to sit the 180 days.Also, freshmen can't play varsity sports in the public school system if they are on a zone variance.
So, Sinatra tell me how all of that is fair, and solved by hard work and discipline?
GURU the spring workouts are not mandatory. If you don't go then you don't play. If you want to play then you better go. Coach Sanchez does not say you are kicked off the team. Facilities wise, Gorman isn't comparable, but every school has a weight room and a field/court, if you put in the work it will pay off. Every state title before next year Gorman did not include the new facility. So once again a weight room and a field is all our facilities.
So all one has to do to compete with hand-picked all-star teams is work hard. Who knew? I suppose that Gorman has cornered the market on wisdom as well.
BC Dave -- Calling people "pathetic losers" in both of your points. Very Christian!
Sinatra 711 -- Gorman "requires" their students to work out and practice out of season. Hate to break it to you. That is against NIAA rules. All out of season workouts must be VOLUNTARY.
A story that came from a Gorman parent, in connection with Gorman's game with Servite this past year: Custom uniforms were provided for both teams by Nike (which should tell you something right off the bat). One of the Gorman parents decided that the shoes provided to the Gaels' players didn't match the uniforms well enough, so she paid to have them re-dyed.
And the school from my neighborhood (who played Gorman in the last state playoffs) is supposed to compete with this progam by working harder. Right. Cash is being poured into Gorman by the bushel basketloads. It is like a college program.
I will repeat this. I do NOT have a problem with your kids getting an excellent preparatory education. I have NO problem with your kids enjoying the fruits of successful alumni...i.e. the best high school athletic facilities in the state. I don't have any problem with Gorman hand-picking the best athletes for their sports programs. I do, however, have a problem with a private school with all of these advantages competing for state titles against public schools. You cannot justify the inequities of the present system.
THREE OF THE LAST FOUR BASKETBALL STATE TITLES
- most recently pounding Hug HS by 45 pts
FOUR OF THE LAST FIVE FOOTBALL STATE TITLES
- most recently scoring 72 pts against Reed HS
SIX STRAIGHT STATE BASEBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS
This isn't about punishing success...it's about a level playing field. It's about FAIRNESS, stupid. This isn't the pros or even college..IT'S HIGH SCHOOL!
It's about time. Ringer High should compete against other nationally known powerhouse private schools. The recruit nationally so they should play that way.
72-28 in the football championship? Are you kidding? I would be ashamed to take the trophy if I were them. They didn't beat the best. Play against the best team in the country and see if you can beat them 72-28.
They are putting athletics over academics and it's sad. Meadows and Faith obviously focus on academics.
Gorman has done a great job of creating a community of students and alumni who love it.
That doesn't mean that they should be allowed to deny every other high school athlete in the state the meaningful chance to win a state championship.
If Gorman's off season practice requirements were so ethical, then why did CSN's baseball team end up on probation within three months of hiring the Gorman coach? He said he was just doing the same things he had always done at Gorman. Problem is: when a public school does those things, regulators come down hard.
It would be one thing if Gorman was found in violation of violating NIAA rules and based on that punish them. But to punish them simply because they're doing well for the last 6-7 years?
People complained about Gorman recruiting even when they sucked and couldn't win in most sports.
If the gripe is that Gorman doesn't have a "zone" then that's now an invalid argument with the open enrollment at certain public high schools. They now hold the same advantage there.
If Nevada had more private schools i would have no problem with it. But do you really want Gorman, Manogue playing Agassi Prep and THe Meadows?
I say give it a couple years with new leagues and open enrollment. Kicking Gorman out will only result in people then turning and complaining that Palo, Vegas etc.. are too dominant.
The same people that complain about GOrman should be raising questions about how Las Vegas football can manage to me so dominant for the last decade in the North East if they have same type of zone, budget etc.. as other NE schools?
How can Centennial basketball girls dominate girls basketball (even thrashing the mighty Gorman several times) with just the luck of zoning? Centennial has same budget as other public schools... do you think that for the last decade the best girls basketball players in the south just happen to live in Centennial's zone?
I am not against Gorman being scrutinized but when nobody questions other dominant programs it just makes it a hate thing.
FOr those that complain, find the violation, by all means reports a credible violation of NIAA rules. IF there's violations then Gorman should be punished but punishing private schools because they're winning is silly.
Subsidized state championships? Here they come.
I almost want Gorman to just play a national schedule for Football/Basketball/Baseball...it would suck for soccer, softball and varsity quiz but seriously let GOrman go and come back to this website a few years later and see how many people will now be complaining about the advantages some public schools have over others.
Should Palo Verde be limited in parent support because they get a lot more parent involvement being in an affluent area than say Canyon Springs is? Should all schools then have a limit or parents that volunteer, alumni, businesses that donate? How about fans? It's an unfair advantage that Basic brought 4 times more fans to their playoff game played at Canyon Springs.. That's so unfair to Canyon SPrings they have horrible parent involvement and support compared to other public schools, lets limit how many fans the other team has so its fair.
Public schools don't need pity. Liberty came out in the state semi finals and fought blow for blow with Gorman. Centennials girls basketball showed Gorman gilrs who the best was by pounding them. Palo Verde, win or lose comes out and punches Gorman in the mouth every time they play at any sport.
THis is like taking dodgeball out of elementary schools.
The Reed that Gorman slaughtered in Reno for state football, would have gotten blown out by Liberty or Palo or even Arbor View. Clark could have beaten Hug basketball by 20+. Now the northern fans are in an uproar but they dont complain about Manogue having open boundaries. THey only complain if you're winning.
Does Gorman recruit nationally? Does anyone have proof of this? I'm sure that kids zoned for Mojave or Western would be glad to go to Gorman for exposure and coaching, so they do. I do not know if there is actual national recruiting going on, or if the accusations come from angry parents of kids that lost to Gorman.
Gorman versus other private schools would be a disaster. Maybe holding a separate championship game that does not include Gorman would be better. I see a problem, but I don't think there is a great answer to it that works in our state. In New Jersey, where the infamous Don Bosco Prep is located, there is a separate private school league. But New Jersey is a much smaller state geographically, with many more private schools, making that model workable in their state.
I'll point out that every time a team wins, someone on the losing side cries foul. When Green Valley had parents renting apartments in their district so the best baseball players could play on their baseball team (which had a dynasty even better than Gorman's), people were mad. Same thing happened when Silverado had a great baseball team or when Las Vegas had a great football team. I recall (probably invalid and certainly unproven) accusations of steroid use were rampant at those times.
Finally, even if Gorman is gone there still wouldn't be an "even playing field." Many schools in the valley could never compete in most sports. The demographics of their zone make it impossible.
How ironic! The Faithful Gorman Followers (sounds too much like hypocrisy) are now up in arms about a possbile new private league. How can someone make changes that will deprive the mighty Gorman of continued dominance in every major sport? How unfair!!! I have to say I understand the pain and frustration you are feeling. However, your frustration pales in comparison to every (let me repeat - EVERY) public school in southern Nevada that has been handcuffed by the NIAA rules. No public school can compete against a mega-power private school that has a blank check and no boundaries. You reap what you sow. So quit crying foul, you brought this on yourselves and will not receive any pity from the "lowly" PUBLIC schools.
I'm so confused as to why all of the BG 'faithful' don't want to embrace this. You have the talent, resources, and history to play a national schedule and compete with the best. Why not try to play the best, like Findlay Prep more than once, or travel and play Cali or Texas powerhouse teams in football? It makes more sense than beating up on Pahrump, Sierra Vista, Spring Valley, Western, and every other average high school team. Take your talents to the next level. All this talk about lowering the bar from your supporters is nonsense, try raising the bar and playing the best. Maybe it will work out better than the last few Findlay games when you actually have to TRY more than once per season.
mytwocent...educate yourself. Go back and look at Gorman's schedule. They can't help that they've been in the Sunset division, that's been that way for 30 years. They have no choice as in who they play in division. Las Vegas HS dominated the NE division for twice as long as Gorman has the SW and nobody complains abotu that. Twice as long, no complaints.
The new realigment starting next year will take the westerns adn clarks of the valley who get blown out by any of the top 10 programs in vegas and out them in a more fitting division. Trust me, even if you take Gorman out, now that there's open enrollment at schools liek Liberty...decent players that would have gone to Coronado or maybe Silverado will tranfer there to play for the Top Tier 4A state title not the lower Division 4A. Seriously forgot Gorman exist, if we're trying to talk about even play in a couple years schools like Basic will complain that Foothill plays in higher division so they're best athletes transfer there due to open enrollment. Eldorado and Valley will complain that their best players go to open enrollment Las Vegas and Durango, Spring Valley etc... will complain that now their best athletes open transfer to Palo Verde and therefore there's now an unfair advantage because they have open enrollment and play in a high classification for a more prestigious state title. Then this argument will start again except it will be public vs public debate.
The running clock rule in Girls basketball was sparked by Centennial Girls basketball blowing other public schools out by 40, 50, 60 points...not once, not one year but for the last decade... by luck of zoning? Um.. no. If you build a great program with community support they will come. kudos to Vegas football and wrestling, Rancho baseball, GV baseball, Palo, Liberty, Vegas football they've done a hell of a lot more and built great programs that student athletes flock to.. just like gorman.
By all means you can hate Gorman and agree that there should be a private league, that's not my gripe. My gripe is the argument you use.
Your comment asking them to play the best teams from other states shows how little you know. Gorman football played #3 team in country FLorida State champs (public school), Arizona state champs (private) one of the best California grograms (Private)
this coming season they play top programs from NJ, Maryland, California, Hawaii and Arizona (4 private, 1 public)...so pelase you can be all for gorman going to a private league but asking them to go play the best in the country...when that's what theyve done already makes you look silly.
And basketball played almost as many out of state and ranked teams as division opponents
To clarify,
I don't hate Gorman, I enjoy watching then play against good competition. Their coaching and players are second to none. They are exciting to watch, just not against public schools. There is no amount of weight lifting and dedication that can compete with 6'11 Zimmerman, 6'9 Allen, 6'8 Carter, 6'7 Morant, and 6'6 Muhammad. Most public schools are lucky if they have 1 guy over 6'5.
I bet the players would embrace playing better competition so the can play 4 quarters. Every team likes a blowout every now and then, but not every game, it get boring and doesn't bring the best out of the team. I believe BG had the talent and ability to best Findlay but they aren't use to being tested.
I respect what the alumni have done and I commend them on their academics. They have built themselves into a NV powerhouse, now go be a national powerhouse. Play local teams as tuneups for your national schedule, like Findlay! I will cheer for Gorman when they step up and play the schedule they should play, against national and regional power programs.
Tuasdad,
My argument is that Gorman is great program and should look for competition like they did this year and do more of it. I'm not a fan of open enrollment, it's not the answer. As long as different schools play by different rules, people will complain.
The SW division has been saturated with the opening of multiple newer schools, spring valley, sierra vista. In the late 90s and early 00s, Durango had enrollment over 3000 which allowed them to compete with BG and beat them on many occasions. Now these are different times and more schools exist, less talent at each school, not enough good coaches, etc.
Gorman playing 3 out of town teams this season was a waste. They could have done so much more with their team. The schedule should be reversed, they should play 9 out of town teams, then play the best Nevada has, Palo, Liberty, Las Vegas, etc.
The realignment was long overdue with the lack of competitive games, but I hate open enrollment, I think it creates a different problem but oh well. I would love to see Gorman take on more of the best teams. I watched their games on TV this year and I am well aware of the level of opponent they played. It's a shame they didn't challenge themselves more than 3 times last football season, it is a waste of talent watching blowouts over and over.
Tuasdad,
You and I agree on a lot of things on here but, you are mistaken with this one. Gorman violates a lot of regulations they just go unreported. Do you know it is the job of the AD and Athletic AP to self report. That will never happen! People have called attention to the violations but the NIAA turns a blind eye due to the national exposure they create. As far as comparing them to Vegas' dominance of the NE its fine to dominate a weak division, the problem is they dominate the whole state to a level never seen before.
All of you Gorman alum and parents have much to be proud of, for sure. I congratulate you for that. Your excellence is not a fault. That being said, 99 percent of you would feel differently if you were not part of Gorman. There is no winner of this argument. Dont expect to convince those of us who are not from Gorman to feel differently, especially by downgrading comments. Having more does not make you a better person.
I do find it amazing when a faith-based school puts winning ahead of its teachings. WWJD, Gorman? I believe he'd be on the side of fairness and equality.
Then again, maybe not. Perhaps Jesus would recruit the best players for the Jerusalem Disciples and go around pounding the likes of the poor Bethlehem Bishops and the Nazareth Myrrh. Why wouldn't he? His dad IS God...I can't think of a more powerful alumnus than Him.
It's like the Crusades all over again. Fortunately, they're not out killing Muslims in the name of God, they're only beating teenage boys in Reno by 50 points a game.
You know what? I've changed my mind..it's Gorman's right...granted by God, Himself, to win state championships. I only wish it worked this well for Notre Dame.
I agree with lcr. Name-calling proves nothing and helps no one. I agree, in part, with GURU. If Gorman's dominance continues (I'm not convinced they'll be dominant next year), Gorman should consider a national schedule. It would make them better and prevent morale-destroying blowouts. However, this private/public idea is terrible. Tuasdad, I usually like reading your posts, but today you're a little too much like Team SG1 in terms of vitriol.
Gorman going to a private division would be terrible for both Gorman and all other private schools. There would be no competition. That said, BG should be allowed to play public schools, but should NOT be eligible to compete for state championships. This would get them motivated to play more out of state games. If you are a baseball player not at BG, it must be a terrible feeling knowing you have no chance at winning a state title. BG has more state titles in one year than many schools have total. Its not their fault but they are now a fish that's way too big for this pond, go out and swim free!
To those you see the viability in moving Gorman into a more "national" schedule "like Finley" you are not considering that Gorman fields 24 teams other than football. Finley Prep is 17 students on full rides. Gorman is 1250 students who populate 24 plus teams, tons of after school activities, has proms and functions much like any high school in the NIAA. Night and Day.
To those hell bent on claiming Gorman as cheating - please find one student athlete who was illegally recruited or who has been illegally compensated - one! Given that a dozen leave Gorman for Public schools every year ("can't afford", not enough playing time, hate the uniforms, no busing, etc.)there must be one to show how they were "recruited" or how they received the mysterious "tuition envelopes" that so many claim. In this day of cameras and recorders on phones, I pads, etc. document one instance - one, then report it and Gorman will be gone. At this point, you have to believe they don't exist, or someone, some coach, some parent, some principal would have coaxed it out of an X-Gorman athlete.
I like the idea where they would play out of state powers, and then face the top Nevada teams. Personally, I think that would give Gorman a better season than thrashing 3/4 of their schedule, and cruising to a state title. It would also give other teams like Liberty, Vegas and Palo shots at a title, while still having under the radar teams (ish) like Foothill and Basic can still do damage in the post season. And this whole "Open enrollment" thing just sounds like the making of "miniature" Gormans. Only time will tell however
The RJ reported tonight that Shabazz Muhammad
and his family may have received financial payments while enrolled at Gorman. This could jeopardize his amateur status as he enters college. Too bad for the Rebels, but more importantly, too bad for the schools and kids playing by the rules...
Fic56... I completely agree!
GrayGhost... uh, looks like someone responded to your challenge! A more thorough account of what's going on can be found at
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...
Looks like the athletic-students at BG might not be playing by the rules, according to the NCAA. Can't wait to see how this unfolds.
I've heard some bad things about shabazz'dad walking around with his hand out. Like I said earlier everyone claims they cheat. See a violation? Report it. If its true then Gorman deserves penalty. Said it earlier today. sorry for the SG1 type talk. Like I said I'm.not against Gorman going national for big sports I just want for once someone to complain bout Gorman AND acknowledge that centennial girls bball dominance coincidence, Vegas football etc... I just want it to be called out fair across the board
I would not doubt unfair dealings with Centennial girls bball. Coincidence that they field a team of the best ball players in the city every year. Right! Helps to have someone on your staff working the middle school games and scouting the potential talent.
Tuasdad,
Centennial probably is violating the rules, maybe some of the parents bought houses or rent apartments to comply, but I doubt it. That's not the same as what Gorman is ALLOWED to do. When BG does it, its legal, fair game. When others do it, its against the rules, that's what's so wrong. I wish Shabazz well and can't wait to see him play in the 2 allstar games, if they let him. This just shines a light on the rule bending that gorman does. I can't argue with their success, but it came against opponents who were far inferior.
Why would a family that can afford to pay for 2 sons to attend Gorman need to take financial assistance for anything? We know that Gorman athletes all pay thier own way, so why not buy your own plane tickets?
...all I have to say is:
Gorman will continue to dominate.
Other schools will continue to complain.
Gorman's students and athletes will learn the value of discipline and hard work.
All public school parents will continue to whine.
Everyone will be jealous year in and year out.
Last one standing will be in blue & orange.
See you next season
!
Does anyone know how much the coaches at Gorman get paid to coach?
Coach Rice - $1.2 mil
Coach Sanchez - $4.5 mil
A dozen cupcakes for every win > 20 pts against public schools
$20,000 bonus for every win against a nationally ranked opponent
$50,000 bonus for winning the conference
$100,000 bonus for winning State
LMAO.....what difference does a coach's salary make?
Oh I was such a happy camper this morning to see this story! I totally believe that Gorman belongs in a private league. If they can afford to attend that school after being "recruited" then they can afford to travel to other private schools. Play in Texas, Arizona, California, New Mexico...Quit bashing all the Hometown players who bust their butts just as much as Gorman. If anyone ever says that public schools do not work as hard as Gorman does, you are mistaken.
Gorman has to recruit all of it's students because it has no zone. The athletic answer is to not allow any student on any financial aid (school sponsored or alumni envelopes)to participate for Gorman. The other play would be to make Gorman 4A and give them the state championship every year and the public schools can continue in 3A. Enough of the need based scholarships i.e. I need a QB.
There is no place in the NIAA public school conference for a school that recruits and provides athletic scholarships. For those of you defending Gorman, you are entitled to pride in your school, as we all are. You are confusing qualities like ""Working Hard, Discipline, The Will To Succeed, Values", with the ability to rely on private benefactors to entice the best athletes to your private school. Everyone values the first set of qualities. Not everyone values the second, relying on benefactors to set a semi-pro athletic department at Gorman. Standards of fair play should certainly prevail at a private school with Christian values.
Casino owner Mr. Fertitta is entitled to contribute as much of his money as he chooses, but Gorman then is NOT entitled to continue to play in a state association based on zoning laws and funded publicly. Mr. F. now needs to contribute further funds for travel money to enable Gorman to play in comparable leagues also endowed with private funds.
The current situation has produced mismatched games that are no fun for the players, the coaches, the fans, the refs, and even, one could hope, sponsors like Mr. F. I have already contacted Mr. Eddie Bonine and urge other interested people to do the same. See the contact information, set forth by another poster, above.
I love how everyone cares what Gorman does. I read all of these comments and everyone is happy that Gorman is going to be moved to another division. I don't get it? Gorman should be "that team" every school wants to be better then. To be able to push the kids more and more. so they can be better then us. But i hear is complain complain!
yall need to be shutin up about losing to a better team
Ragtimepiano: incredible well written expression of your feelings (what are you doing hanging out with this crowd?).
There are two valid sides to this issue, but you have jumped to a potentially erroneous conclusion, just because you have read it in other anonymous post -
"There is no place in the NIAA public school conference for a school that recruits and provides athletic scholarships."
Does it make sense that with a dozen student athletes a year leaving Gorman to go back to their public school, not once has one student, or parent ever come forth with a scrape of evidence that the former Gorman student athlete was illegally recruited or illegally compensated to attend Gorman. Not one, not ever.
There are no official Bishop Gorman Athletic Scholarships. That is well documented. Most references are that some sophisticated organization of former alums secretly hand out "tuition envelopes" every month at Starbucks to parents of every athlete.
With hundreds of former Gorman student athletes now safely attending a public school, no one has ever said they have proof that it happened. Does that make you wonder why? Could it be that it's because it doesn't exist?
@orca17. I find it hilarious that one of Gorman's colors is orange. These people are ignorant of the fact the orange is anathema to Irish Catholics. Learn some history! :-) Google "Orangemen."
@Grayghost. Sounds like this would be a great topic for an investigative reporter---are you reading this, Mr. Brewer? Let's see how the family demographics of the starting five Gaels corresponds to the rest of the student body. Let's publish the amount of yearly tuition at BGHS.
I'm "hanging out with this crowd" because I was a three-sport athlete myself, and come from a football family with several members who played and coached in the Big Ten. I grew up in West Michigan where there are extremely strong sanctions against situations like this.
Sir, we are not naive. If students and parents "come forth" with incriminating evidence, they are also incriminating themselves; they may feel uncomfortable about allowing the police or courts into their lives.
Check your math. "A dozen a year" would take how many years to total "hundreds" now attending public schools?
Given Gorman's 56 years of existence in Las Vegas, I could be comfortable that the number of former Gorman students who completed their high school athletic experience in a public school could be termed "hundreds". But is that really the point. The critical number is ONE! One person who is no longer in high school, safely beyond retribution by the NIAA or anyone else, needs to stand up and show the Sun, the RJ or any interested media person - here is the check stub, here is the bank statement, here is ... whatever. Here is the name of who approached me, my family, here is what they provided to illegally recruit me. Some tangible scrap of evidence, then you have a believable story. That's all I am saying - show me the "smoking gun".
@Grayghost This has been an issue (see Mr. Brewer's article) only since about 2007. Gorman fielded teams with not much success until then.
What makes you think there would be bank statements or check stubs?
As I said, let's compare the family demographics of Gorman star athletes with the rest of the student body.
I read your article with great interest. I have had 3 kids go through Gorman and I have 1 in public school. The reason we(along with others) have picked Gorman has to do with 96% college attendance among graduates. All of my kids played varsity sports and had college sport options. I did not receive any aid. We were required by the school to sign forms saying we would not sponsor kids to attend the school. If Clark Co high schools feel intimidated by a school with 1200 students, I truly feel sorry for them. If they can not find quality players among their 3000+ students then maybe they should look into their programs. Nevada as a whole does not have a reputation of developing student athletes, so I have been proud of the many teams which have been developed at Gorman,while watching them achieve sports stardom. I do not understand what these districts would achieve and it sounds like another way to dummy down Nevada schools.
It's easy to find...it's on Bishop Gorman's website. Their tuition is....
Tuition rates for 2012-2013 school year are:
Regular tuition rate - $12,100
Catholic parish rate w/signed Parish Affidavit - $10,700
Those tuition rates are not onerous by any means....here are other private school tuition rates:
Faith Lutheran - $9,300
Meadows - $21,110
It's not difficult for a family to make sacrifices to pay a $10,700 tuition. I know, because I did it for our son. We drove old cars, didn't have cable, had old computers, stopped eating at restaurants, didn't buy new clothes, made whatever sacrifice was necessary to send our son to private school. It was extremely tight financially, but doable if you're willing to do it. Most public school parents won't give up all of those things for their kids...so instead, they complain that it's unfair.
The majority of the parents/families at Bishop Gorman are not rich and wealthy. All of the parents we knew were in the same situation we were in. Our close family friend's son was a talented baseball player...they sacrificed just as much as we did to send him to Gorman because of the "hard work, discipline, and regiment" that they instill in each of their students....not just the athletes. He didn't get any special treatment and they had to pay their tuition as much as everyone else...he was the most talented Freshman baseball player. His mother worked 2 jobs and father worked overtime so that they could make ends meet. That's what makes it so sweet when I see BG dominate other schools....because I know the truth because I lived it and experienced it....I'm not on the outside looking in making comments about stuff I don't know about. Bishop Gorman deserves every championship it has won...the players, coaches, students, parents, and alumni deserve it.
Go Gaels!
Grayghost, there has been a kid that called BG out. Sam Tai on the local news on transferring problems. He was a freshmen player at gorman. he transferred out and he said it right in the camera prior to his senior year that gorman offered his family a deal that he wouldn't have to pay anything if he stayed but that he didnt want to stay there anymore. He was a top player who ended up with a scholarship to UCLA where he is now. This was in the local tv news piece that covered the transfer problems around the valley 2 years ago.
Also, as many of the Island Warrior family knows there are former Island Warrior players on Gormans team that do NOT pay a dime. They are not Catholic, and there families are on a very limited budget. One that in no way would be able to cover the expense of a private Catholic school.
if star players are having recruiting trips being paid for by coaches brother then anyone with common sense knows someone else is picking up the tab for tuition.
what has to be bothersome to so many Gorman alums or just parents of Gorman kids, is how they sacrificed to have their kids go to gorman only to hear how other kids are having their expenses picked up by, (well we all know who). If BG can fly their teams around the country then dont think they dont handle tuition and expenses for a hand pick group of kids that help them achieve their goals.
personally, I dont want to see BG have to lose out on playing for State titles, and it doesnt bother me that they can pick kids from all over the city. They are a private school. But being that they are private then the families should have to pay wether their kids play sports or not. Thats the biggest issue. If a family chooses to make the sacrifices or can afford to pay the tuition then they should have that right and the kids shouldnt be penalized. BUT, if someone else is picking up the tab and the family is not paying their own way, then NO WAY should that kid be able to go to the school and play. And I believe that is what bothers people the most.
If you feel that these kids should be able to play regardless, then fine let them play in their own private school division. You can't have it both ways.
By the way, for the comment earlier about MANDATORY WORKOUTS, technically they are not suppose to be mandatory, however there was a top receiver that was kicked off for missing workouts who ended up transferring to Faith that according to his dad. Others as well. If you don't believe this then just have your son take a week off and see what happens.
Also, for the ones who believe they're superior because they work so much harder than everyone else, according to Will Levi and several other sources, the Williams kid from Durango, is rapidly climbing the list as one of the top athletes in the nation. Ahead of all those hard working BG kids. I understand he dominated the local combine recently, as well is expected to be in the top 5 nationally in NIKE's combines. We almost thought we were going to get him here at Liberty. We wish him well. OH , and by the way, I believe he was a soph. STARTER at BG. (Sanchez how did you lose this kid?)
You don't have to go to BG to get noticed and get major offers. Potuasi was a great example last year and there's a whole lot more kids in the past and many more kids in the future that will do better than most every kid at BG.
Sinatra711 being a Gael makes perfect sense.
The Solution 1.)eliminate the policies that handcuff all the other Public schools,By allowing open enrollment for all schools & to all Student Athletes.This can be done by allowing any academically qualified students to legally transfer to any school of their choosing only one time in their high school career up to their ending of their Sophomore year in school.The families will be responsible for all transportation cost.For example If My child wanted to transfer from Palo Verde to Liberty they can do so as long as they are eligible and have not played a full season on varsity.2.) Once a student Athlete progresses to their Junior year the transfer window is closed regardless of Varsity experience.If a student plays an entire season on any Varsity sport while an underclassmen(FROSH or SOPH ) they are no longer eligible to transfer.