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Monday, Dec. 3, 2012 | 2:01 a.m.
It’s admirable that Nevadan Steve Vaughan has launched his drive for states to secede from the union, and it makes perfect sense for citizens to support his position and sign his petition. Who wouldn’t want the freedom to fend for themselves exempt from taxation and government overreach? The federal government provides or subsidizes so many unnecessary services such as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, veterans’ benefits, aid to education and dependent children, disaster relief, the federal highway system, the National Guard, the U.S. military, unemployment compensation, food stamps, free emergency health care, and myriad agencies. In addition, there would be ...
Diane Kremser wrote "Oh, for the good old days without an interstate highway system, railroads or municipal airports. The Pony Express looks pretty good, but no; that was a federal program! Oh well, enjoy your freedom! And don't forget to get your passport -- you'll need it to visit America."
Reductio ad absurdum. Diane is using the argument of reductio ad absurdum which is the technique of reducing an argument or hypothesis to absurdity, by pushing the argument's premises or conclusions to their logical limits and showing how ridiculous the consequences would be, thus disproving or discrediting the argument.
Economic freedom and a culture of work leads to prosperity and government has a supporting role to play for this dream to come true. It must, for example, uphold the rule of law, secure property rights, ensure access to education, and provide a safety net for those who cannot care for themselves. We must have government support systems to maintain infrastructure including federal, state and local. We need national defense systems, disaster relief, safety nets and other agencies to manage and oversee these systems and functions.
The Tea Party movement is a movement that advocates adherence to the United States Constitution, reducing U.S. government spending and taxes,and reduction of the U.S. national debt and federal budget deficit.
With a $16 trillion dollar national debt and yearly deficits of over $2 trillion dollars, it is clear to most Americans that our government is fiscally out of control. Obama's class warfare tax plan would solve nothing as it would generate $82 billion which only lowers our deficit 6% from $1.1 trillion to $1.04 trillion. Obama is yet another politician who is sweeping our debt and deficit issues under the rug in plain sight of the American people.
Obama needs to be honest and explain that without reducing government spending every American's tax burden would have to increase 35% to close the gap between government spend and revenue. Obama's class warfare tax plan would only increases tax rates on the top wage earners however, there are simply not enough rich people to tax to close the gap between tax revenue and government spending.
Obama is not addressing our debt and deficit issues. Americans need to be asking, where is Obama's spending cuts proposal?
Typo correction to my 2:58am post. Yearly deficits are over $1 trillion dollars, not $2 trillion.
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Diana says "The federal government provides or subsidizes so many unnecessary services such as Social Security, ....."
That is such foolish talk
The issue is if the Federal government make a law then the federal government should pay 100% of the cost forever
The federal government like to fund a program paying startup cost for a few years then stick it to the States.
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The issue is if the Federal government make a law then the federal government should pay 100% instead of borrowing money
The federal government like to fund a program by borrowing money from China
Obamacare is under funded by over a trillion dollars even though it stole $716 billion from Medicare and and $500 billion on new taxes.
If the program is worth having then it must be paid for fairly by ALL TAXPAYERS including the middle class
If the middle class will not pay for it it is not a good program
Pay as you go
I don't know what's more laughable: The people who seek secession or those who impugn them. If the Sons of Liberty made peace with the King of England over taxation without representation, rather than revolt and shed blood, we would not have the America we have today. It's called freedom and liberty. It applies to all not just those who we agree with.
CarmineD
The government is a cash eating out of control mnonster. It generates over a trillion dollars more each year in new debt and gross debt of more than 16 trillion. Yes we need a government, just much less of it.We are broke and nothing is being done to address the problem.Apparently the letter writer hasn't received the message. She is out of control like the feds.
Obama will raise taxes on everybody to pay for new programs
the Thelma and Louise Democrats are preparing to let ALL taxes rates rise on EVERYBODY to prevent any LIMITS ON SPENDING - so watch for Obama who claims the pubic wind at his back to soar off the fiscal cliff.
The Pony Express was founded by William H. Russell, Alexander Majors, and William B. Waddell. Riders worked for Central Overland California and Pike's Peak Express Company.
More government is desperately needed by the sheeple! Remember to celebrate "Hug a bureaucrat" day.
Yes, their little world ended because Obama won. Now they want to pick up their marbles and make their own little world.
Good morning to those of you who have decided to share your warmth and charming personalities on this threead thus far.
I have a question for you though, do you guys all take similar medications?
"Reductio ad absurdum" More like "Tongue in cheek"
"The federal government like to fund a program paying startup cost for a few years then stick it to the States." Yup, the feds are the worst "Stickers".
"Pay as you go" Okay, a tollbooth in every mall parking lot entrance, can you say "Reductio ad absurdum"?
"the Sons of Liberty" Why I'll huff and I'll puff and I will blow down your self created aura of pomposity.
"A cash eating out of control mnonster" Is the cash eating out of control mnonster related to the cookie mnonster?
"so watch for Obama who claims the pubic wind at his back to soar off the fiscal cliff." Does Obama get to wear a superhero costume for his soaring off the cliff act?
"The Pony Express was founded by William H. Russell, Alexander Majors, and William B. Waddell" Tick tock, yawn, yawn, stretchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Burp. That was better.
"Remember to celebrate "Hug a bureaucrat" day." Rusty. Go to the DMV, take a number, knock yourself out.
""the Sons of Liberty" Why I'll huff and I'll puff and I will blow down your self created aura of pomposity."
The King of England and his mercenaries tried. They lost. Sons of Liberty and their descendants are still standing.
Know your history first.
CarmineD
Amazing that Jeff could not come up with an independent thought of his own about how to fix the fiscal problem
Future remarked:
"Amazing that Jeff could not come up with an independent thought of his own about how to fix the fiscal problem"
I say:
Every time I recommend sending your lot to the newly created country of Wyoming (A home for Obama haters) I get creepy text messages from Dick Cheney, so I have stopped...
Maybe we're being too hasty in knocking this secession idea. Perhaps these are some folks we wouldn't miss too much. I think I'll start a list. For brevity, I'll call it my "A" List. Anyone caring to do the same is free use the same name, substituting whatever adjective beginning with the letter "A" that they think appropriate.
For now, I won't reveal my selection for the letter "A", but I'll give you a hint. Donald Trump is definitely an A Lister. :-)
The "natural" way of life is to do for yourself or die. Government modified this, at first to provide for DEFENSE and evolved into various "functions" to ensure the integrity and continuation of the "country" and business / economies. We have since devolved into the "nanny state" where we reward those who won't for sitting on dead center. We reward people to have kids INSTEAD of allowing the natural right of every person to do for her/himself. We tax, confiscate, devalue so many people to such an extent that they are unable to save for retirement, have an adequate emergency fund, do for their own kids, buy new cars (scratch "stimulate" the economy and make it ALLOW the economy to FUNCTION.) With so much government interference, our economy cannot function well and at times doesn't function adequately to maintain things. At these times, the government (federal reserve, POTUS, Congress) steps in and further messes things up. IF we want to right things, we must make many steps in many directions to allow people, our economy, AND our government to perform their specific ESSENTIAL functions. OK, we can't just stop everything on a dime. But we HAVE TO start moving everything in the right direction. Sure it's gonna hurt some, some people right away, other people later. But the pain is CAUSED by people receiving / taking things to which they are NOT entitled.
Jeff, Jeff, "Jeff from Vegas"; how can you not see the job creating qualities of the "Tea Party Secessionists"?
Once these political "versionists" from the "Planet from The Apes" have seceded from the Union, it is only then that I'll believe Republicans are the true job creators.
At a minimum, several million jobs, at least, will be immediately created by those apes for us citizens that remain with the Union. We will have the right at the point of a state seceding to go in and begin the process of "repossessing" every bit of property and infrastructure that the federal government has had any financial stake or investment in. That's right; we will dig up their streets and take our tar roads back; we want all our water pipes back; we want all our electrical grids back; we want to take all the business building structures back, even if it is just a portion; the list is virtually endless, and so would our job opportunities!
Yes, I just love to see my political adversaries cut off their noses to spite their faces. That's a show ticket I would certainly buy box seats for.
"A person who commentates in the manner of "truth-n-comedy" has certainly burned the piles of political driftwood."
>B. Chapline<
Good job Jeff!!!
@Ref You can always identify the puffed-up smarty-pants, they always big words and sometimes foreign words to describe stuff. "Reductio ad absurdum" can also be known simply as satire, a more apt description in the case of this letter.
Once again, as is so often the case, a leftist makes up "facts" to suit the agenda. The Pony Express was not a federal program. April 3, 1860 was the date the Pony Express began operating. The venture was funded by a freight firm, Russell, Majors and Waddell, who promised delivery of the mails in 10 days from St. Joseph, MO. to Sacramento, CA. Until then, letters mailed to California took six to eight weeks for delivery. The cost was $5 per ounce and the mail was sent out twice a day. The Pony Express proved to be a financial failure and only 18 months after it began ceased operations. The shutdown came a few days after the telegraph was completed across the Western states and territories in October of 1861 and, with its ability to transmit information almost instantaneously across the country, eliminated one very important reason for the Pony Express' existence. So much for Kremsers knowledge of history and the reliability of her assertions. Remember, as I've told you before - do not trust the leftists for truth. They are incapable of it. Fudging the facts comes as naturally to leftists as does breathing to the rest of us.
It is unnecessary to be a well educated or a knowledgeable person to understand that Nevada will not secede. You'd have to be absent the frontal lobes of your brain not to realize this. Anyone advocating this must surely be aware that it is a waste of time and can only be a symbolic gesture. A blind person could see through this senseless (and certainly not original) publicity stunt. Steve Vaughan has gotten his name out to all the wing nuts and should be congratulated. But now it's time to stop playing "pretend politician" and focus on more pressing issues.
Mr Freeman writes,"Economic freedom and a culture of work leads to prosperity". The majority of the people in the country can't come up with a grand.You need a level playing field. Way too much corruption and special interest meddling for the average family to even dream about PROSPERITY.
The average buys lottery tickets.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/10/pf/emerg...
Many of the states talking secession get vast amounts of money from the federal government to cover programs like Medicaid. Without that federal money they would be broke by happy hour.
I firmly believe that if you don't the US then leave. Seems fitting if you don't like our laws leave. This may come in handy for illeglas as well.
I think the illegals love it here. It's the Americans that were born here that whine constantly.
Let them eat cantaloupe and fly in unregulated airspace.
RefNV (Re Freeman): You state that "Diane is using the argument of reductio ad absurdum" True. It's a perfectly valid technique.
You state "The Tea Party movement is a movement that advocates adherence to the United States Constitution..." True. But grab your copy of the Constitution and look up "Air Force." The Constitution specifically names the President as commander in chief of the army and of the navy. No mention of the Air Force. Who commands it? The Constitution specifically grants Congress the duty of funding the navy and the army. Who funds the Air Force. My point? The Constitution is a living document and must be made to fit actual conditions as the evolve. Army? Navy? They're for warfare. Warfare? That's national defense. Air Force? ditto. Therefor Air Force must be treated just like the Army and the Navy. But that's just an interpretation, a penumbra. I assume that the tea party either holds for the abolition of the US Air Force or doesn't really advocate adherence to the Constitution as a whole, but only to those passages they like. But that would mean their philosophy isn't really intended to fit the Constitution, rather they warp the Constitution to fit their philosophy and the reality of politics as they wish it were instead of what it actually is.
lvfacts101 (Jerry Fink), you argue that "The Pony Express was not a federal program." Correct, so far as you go. It wasn't a true federal program. It was an exclusive contractor for the federal government. Lacking federal funding it would never have begun. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
renorobert,
The Air Force was initially part of the United States Army. The USAF was formed as a separate branch of the military on September 18, 1947 under the National Security Act of 1947.
but for the naval blockade, the south won the secessionist civil war
northern "city boy" fighters couldn't stand up to the southern "farmer boy" fighters in the fields
the blockade forced the south into battles it couldnt win even though it had superior legions
secession is not easy, but doable. the roman empire's taxation rate jumped above 10 percent and voila it fell apart into secessionist pieces when its command and control center, rome, became ultimately corrupted after spending itself into oblivion. invaders destroyed the aquaducts and rome didnt have the wherewithal to fight back. latin was promulgated into the romanic languages italian, french, spanish, portuguese, romanian
history is replete with secessionist successes.
only the ones with the most to lose, aka communists - now known as the democrat party - will never accede to secession.
romney was completely accurate when he said the democrat communist electorate have been given too many democrat government featherbeds - crappy tax supported education aka daycare, welfare payments with no work requirements, give away section 8 welfare housing for dopers and drug dealers, tax supported foodstamps openly traded on the black market for booze and dope, ACORN, billions in giveaways and bailouts to pro-communist organizations.
this is only the beginning for the secessionist movement. within a short time turmoil will prevail when others realize they have been swindled by their government and sign the secessionist petitions
renorobert, very good post Dec. 3, 2012 6:10 p.m
However, You seem to indirectly pose a question. Are satisfied with the responses to your post.
RE-POST
renorobert, very good post Dec. 3, 2012 6:10 p.m
However, You seem to indirectly pose a question. Are "you" satisfied with the responses to your post?
RefNV (Re Freeman): You state "The Air Force was initially part of the United States Army. The USAF was formed as a separate branch of the military on September 18, 1947 under the National Security Act of 1947."
I 've known that for many years. For just as long, I've known that it's no longer the USAAF (or Army Air Corps if you prefer). As it stands right now, the USAF is a military organization with no legitimate source of funding, no CinC. What's the Constitutional authority for this situation?
Longtimevegan: I failed! I tried not to make it that much of an indirect question while still not TOO bad-tempered! But, I'll get back to you. . . when I've seen some form of RESPONSIBLE response.
Is it safe to assume that anyone who signs a petition to secede has effectively renounced their citizenship?
renorobert,
Contact your congressman or senator if you have questions regarding the Air Force's budget policy, rules and procedures for using Air Force appropriated funds. I was never part of the Air Force but did work for Northrup Grumman Aerospace in the 1990's in both Stuart, Fl and Dallas, TX working on a variety of military aerostructures & related component projects.
"...there would be no need to vote because you would have no president, Congress, Senate, federal courts, judges or prisons. You would finally be totally free to live as you like, totally independent of government control and/or safeguards to your civil liberties."
Kremser -- without the president, etc., we might actually be better off. You should pay attention -- it's government that's the biggest danger to our civil liberties.
"It's called freedom and liberty."
CarmineD -- good post!
"The government is a cash eating out of control mnonster [sic]."
Houstonjac -- you're wrong. Government is a BLOATED cash-eating out-of-control monster. And it sends bullies with badges after us. So there
"We tax, confiscate, devalue so many people to such an extent that they are unable to save for retirement, have an adequate emergency fund, do for their own kids....."
Roslenda -- another good post
Funny none of you mentioned the Nevada Constitution which actually forbids secession. Seems most if not all of you are ignorant of the fact each state is its own sovereign separate from the feds.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -- Abraham Lincoln, first inaugural address, 1861
@y RefNV tells us, "The Tea Party movement is a movement that advocates adherence to the United States Constitution, reducing U.S. government spending and taxes," So that's why they support Voter ID laws that clearly violate the U.S. Constitution, cost tens of millions of dollars to implement in order to stop an activity that isn't happening. It's time for my fellow Republicans to disavow themselves from these nut-bags, or mark my word we will be swearing in Hillary Clinton in January, 2017.
The tea party is an infection destroying the conservative movement from within.
bghs1986,
In 2016, Hillary Clinton will be 69 years old and too old to run. Flying around the world these last four years appears to have taken its toll on her mentally and physically. Besides, she needs to keep a close eye on hubby cheatin' Bill to insure he doesn't play fast & loose again behind her back with much younger women.
Looks like FHA next federal "program" needing a bailout. And it won't be cheap.