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Wednesday, May 4, 2011 | 2:04 a.m.
I applaud J. Patrick Coolican’s Tuesday column, “Life lessons taught here,” which was about Green Valley High School’s Scott Ginger, who teaches English and speech and debate. I am glad to see some positive media coverage about teachers.
The media should more often go to schools and watch teachers. Watch a kindergarten classroom with more than 30 students and see how the teacher does magic with 5-year-olds, especially during the first weeks of school.
Too many people insult and denigrate teachers. They simply are ignorant about what we as teachers do. Columns such as this will help them understand.
Morning Nancy
Too many people give teachers a pass without any evidence they're actually teaching. They may be good, they may be bad; right now we don't know either way.
We should not be afraid to be critical of bad teachers even though there are irrational demagogues who will attack anyone critical of our failing system.
Right now, Nevada is in the equivalent of a war on education. And look at the irresponsible attitude of the right-wing: in a war, when a battle does not go well, is it smart to blame the soldiers? Then say: cut the soldiers' pay, take away their weapons, give them worse equipment, and they'll do better next time?
The argument is absurd on its face, and morally wrong. What needs to be thought through is educational strategy, new philosophies, such as "transitional literacy" to deal with 21st century American students who come to school with hosts of challenges never faced before.
Time to stop bashing the teachers, and instead, examine every step of the way our society educates its children. And in order to do this, we'll need every great teacher we can pay premiums to keep in our classrooms: teachers like Scott Ginger, and Nancy Agustin. Thanks to both!
Mr. Unger, your dogmatic rhetoric aside, I could easily claim you're making war on students. You continue to support policies which, in effect, are more about providing jobs for adults and seem to have little to no impact on students.
Your analogy is also horrible and can be easily turned against you. In effect you're making war for the sake of spending rather than funding a military for the sake of defending. In other words, you've got all your priorities mixed up.
Patrick, you really shouldn't accuse someone else of "dogmatic rhetoric."
mwh710: I don't think he gets paid anymore. Maybe even NPRI thought his stuff was crap?
C_Bess: That wasn't called for.
It's not helpful and has nothing to do with what Patrick advocates with regard to education.
Mr Gibbons would have us believe that papers grade themselves, that lesson plans come ready made for a class of forty individuals with differing needs and skill levels, and that teachers spend no time conferring with other teachers, parents, counselors, administration, probation officers, etc.
He contends their day is 7 hours times 5 days = 35 hours per week.
Mr. Gibbons also repeats that teachers do not improve with experience or with education.
He cites numerous studies and refers to them as evidence or empirical truth while in the real world, teachers easily spend 3 or 4 hours a night working on their students' papers, lesson plans, conferences with parents, etc.
He equivocates experiential understanding with anecdotal insignificance and considers himself an expert because of his one failing year as an undereducated, unqualified and non-credentialed substitute teacher in a school system that 'let him go' early. He, by his own admission, chose not to pursue the calling because in his words 'it took too much time'
Mr. Gibbons may shoot off his mouth, but it's usually the same ole blabbo and condescending crap denigrating the noble profession who raise the next generation.
In fact, teachers like Nancy Agustin and Douglas Unger do things with inspiration and understanding that never quite make it to the radar screens of the Gibbons types. Kids discover strengths because teachers are made of firefighter stuff, axing their way into structures consumed by fiery ignorance and rescuing the children left inside, nourishing and clothing and equipping them to become successful beings, self-reliant and strong enough to discover their potentials.
It's easy to understand how the Gibbons types fail as teachers; they could care less about the less fortunate, the dumb little things.
Patrick:
I have asked repeatedly that you come to schools and observe teachers. Until you do that, you do not have the credibility. That is why so many people in this forum disrespect you.
I am repeating my request. GO TO SCHOOLS. OBSERVE. Take notes of what is bad and note down WHY they are bad. Give suggestions how it can be better. Tell the principal. You see, in any situation, smart people just don't complain - they present problems and offer suggestions. Until you do that, you will just be a whiner - the problem - and not the solution.
By the way, take roseann with you and a few of your kind. Do something that will actually help, not just mouthing off. You two just foam in the mouth and never give rebuttals or explanations. That is really immature. I don't understand why there is so much hatred inside you.
Grow up, Patrick.
Nancy, been there and I've done that...all of that. You aren't paying attention.
Mr. Lamy, you're the guy who runs and hides from all empirical evidence he doesn't like. You're a dogmatic ideologue who thinks teachers work 2,800 hours a year about 1,200 more than the U.S. Department of Labor states is accurate. In other words, you have a nasty habit of making stuff up.
PS, the Labor Department puts the teacher work week at 37 to 40 hours. Teacher work year is 185 days on average or about 37 weeks.
No Patrick, you didn't. Maybe you have myopia because you only see half of it.
Go back and find some "empirical evidences" of your own, not from someone else's research.
Mr. Lamy you are the worst sort of dishonest intellectual incompetent. Not only do you make stuff up, you completely mangle other people's statements in order to build straw men.
Nancy, I'm afraid you don't understand what empirical evidence is, nor the meaning of myopic. You're touting the superiority of your own anecdotal evidence which makes you myopic.
No Patrick. You are the one who is incapable of understanding. Your mind is closed. I know what empirical evidence is. I have a doctorate degree. I enclosed empirical evidence in quotations because you use it so selectively. That is myopic! Here's the definition of myopia:
myopia /maopi/ Show Spelled
[mahy-oh-pee-uh] Show IPA
--noun
1. Ophthalmology . a condition of the eye in which parallel rays are focused in front of the retina, objects being seen distinctly only when near to the eye; nearsightedness ( opposed to hyperopia).
2. lack of foresight or discernment; obtuseness.
3. narrow-mindedness; intolerance.
You are the number two and three defined. Once again, grow up Patrick!
Patrick: The Department of Labor is obviously using contractual time, not actual time worked. I put in far more time that my contract called for. It's impossible to get the job done without working lots and lots of time "off the clock." I'd think someone with experience in the classroom would know that.
"than" instead of "that" - I really wish there was an "edit" feature.
Patrick, I teach at an alternative high school in CCSD. I challenge you to come to my classroom and do my job for a week. I teach Pre-Algebra, Math Applications, Math Fundamentals and Intuitive Geometry. If you can do my job in 35 hours per week, I will post on this board that you are correct. If you can't you will post your failure and stop posting. Here's your chance to put up or shut up.
Oh Patrick, here's a definition of 'obtuse.'
obtuse /btus, -tyus/ [uhb-toos, -tyoos]
--adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
Hey Tank,
I don't think Patrick will answer you. I have been following this forum and know how he operates. He attacks then runs. He can't engage in adult conversations. His premises are always skewed and his arguments faulty, resulting in idiotic conclusion.
(By the way, between you and I, he thinks he's really smart because he quotes 'research' from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and all the IVY league schools.)
I have given him advice before, so do others in this forum, but he continues to do what he does - much like some teenagers. I guess we'll have to wait until he grows up.
Education in our state is in a crisis not unlike a war. Lives are at stake here, make no mistake about it: hundreds of thousands of Nevada students will either learn enough to lead prosperous, productive lives, or they will not. Keep in mind: education is not only what a student learns from books or hyper-texts or vocationally; education is how a student learns to life his or her life, with goals and ethics, with the resources and soundness of an educated mind.
The current system needs a great deal of re-thinking and reorganization. Sensible budget cuts are in order. But the degree that the right-wingers want to explode education budgets in our state is unsustainable and wrong. Cutting budgets this much really is like watching soldiers lose a battle then punishing the soldiers with pay cuts and taking away their weapons, only to send them back into battle again, absurdly and cruelly expecting them to win. This is both morally and practically dead wrong.
Teachers can't take more cuts, and they won't; the good teachers will leave the system, or they'll be so demoralized that they will increasingly just surrender to the near impossibility of what they will be facing: overcrowded classrooms; limited supplies and technology with which to teach; stressed out students with tremendous difficulties who cannot now be given the individual attention that they desperately need; and a public rhetoric machine with the likes of this education hater Gibbons pouring his poison out over their heads in blog posts and newspapers, disrespecting and devaluing their profession, careless of the harm they directly cause to the students in their classes.
Remember: a budget is a moral document. Who here shows enough morality to save lives? Teachers do. The good teachers are out there every day, saving lives, one student at a time. Now it's up to the legislators in our state to show the moral courage to fund education at least enough to sustain its vital infrastructure and human resources. Doing any less is the ethical equivalent of treason, and surely a betrayal of the promise of our younger generation.
@Nancy,
I know, but just wanted to put it out publically. He can put up or shut up. My kids will eat him alive. Let's see how he does with students who have a perfect record, haven't turned in any work for a year, or the high school kids who have to use a calculator to figure out 8 x 7. Those who can teach, those who can't work for think tanks.
Mr Gibbons,
You have stated that you 'would take' the teacher salary, but that pursuing a career in the classroom would take you too much time. These are your statements and your sentiment precisely.
You continue to imply that papers grade themselves, and this is not the case. It takes time, at least 60 seconds for a short assignment to be read and scored by a well-trained and experienced holistic scorer.
You continue to imply that lesson are planned from the formative assessments of these papers for the following day, lessons designed not for a classroom but for the forty individuals needing forty bridges to forty different reachable goals.
You continue to deny that teachers work at home, at meetings, at conferences, on weekends with parents, kids, probation officers, counselors, administrators and other teachers.
You continue to deny that none of this takes any time; you, sir, choose to remain delusional about what teachers do. You are the empirical emperor of emptiness as you deny and denigrate the tasks every single teacher does every single day.
Can I help it if the DOL says the work week is 35 hours?
You know better because you, in your own words on this very rag addressed the issue saying that you, yourself, Patrick R Gibbons, actually made lesson plans and met with parents after the classroom periods. Who better to trust than your self?
Now who is the "worst sort of dishonest intellectual incompetent"?? answer...Patrick R Gibbons
"PS, the Labor Department puts the teacher work week at 37 to 40 hours. "
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Wanna come grade papers at home with me this weekend, and next, and the one after that, and then add those hours to the 40 or so I spend in the classroom every week? Some teachers work 60 and 70 hours a week, and a small number more. I work about 60 during part of the school year and about 50 during part. No doubt the Department of Labor is not talking about the CCSD. And either it's adding in the summer months for its averages, or it's full of morons.
Of course, many teachers work more during the summer or have to take classes. Does the Department of Labor look at that?
@Uunger:
"The good teachers are out there every day, saving lives, one student at a time."
LOL, thats a good one.
@teacher:
Most professional jobs requires 60+ work hours these days so top crying. If school district was a "private" institution you will all be fired and only ones left would be the REAL teachers. Teachers in CCSD been producing poor results for decades during the boom era and the bust. So stop blaming your poor results on the budget. Just repeat after me, "I'm a glorified babysitter and kids are getting harder to babysit"
Mr_Boston: Teacher and others aren't "crying." They are simply pointing out that Patrick is full of crap, spouting that teachers only work 37 hours a week for 37 weeks.
No, no, it's not our responsibility to dissect each teacher's myopic thought process. IT IS THEIR (the teachers) responsibility to put FULL EFFORT INTO TEACHING OUR CHILDREN TO READ, not to network and lobby for more "crumbs" of Billions in over funding. They've had more than a hundred years to figure out the three r's--GET IT DONE or we'll cut off more funding.
There are many good teachers but they don't spend their "free time" blogging about how wonderful THEY think they are. They probably put a little more time into teaching-related activities. Can't you even figure out that taking offense that we're forced to pay for 100,000 illegal students is insulting and NOT an attack on teachers.
Certainly there are many things in CCSD that taxpayers do NOT approve of--doesn't mean each and every teacher is held in disrespect. However, there are too many "teachers" posting here that reveal a lack of comprehension of basic economics and have no concept of what other people / occupations get paid for as difficult and more difficult work. Keep posting and make my case, AGAIN.
roseanrose: Teachers ARE putting in "full effort into teaching our children to read." Funny how my kid in kindergarten reads at a third grade level, yet there are kids in her classroom who still can't recognize the complete alphabet and everything in between. The intelligence of the students is not something that is under a teacher's control and they work their butts off despite what they are given to work with.
Mr. Lamy,
You are a dishonest intellectual incompetent. Additionally you show a complete lack of understanding on how the teaching profession actually works (although the only Joe Lamy I can locate any details on in Nevada is a teacher in Reno, are you him?)...though I think this has more to do with the fact that you're a dogmatic partisan ideologue who has to ignore inconvenient facts.
In order to reach that average salary you need 8 years and an MA degree plus the time it takes to earn the meaningless teacher certification...in Virginia that alone was another 2 years worth of college coursework.
Patrick, instead of slinging insults, how about you address the fact (FACT) that teachers work far more than contractual time...or are you going to tell us that during your year of teaching, you managed to get everything done that is required to do an excellent job teaching during the contractual time?
Patrick,
Come to my classroom, prove to me that you can do everything that I do in the contracted time, and I will post that publically. If you can't then, you can post that as well. Those who can teach, those who can't work for think tanks.
No Mr. Gibbons, I am not a teacher. I am a developer, contractor and consultant for a number of firms that deal in facts.
Last century I spent several years teaching on the high school, college and university level
Grading papers, Patrick, enables teachers to identify what the learners are weak on. It's called formative assessment and it informs what to do next. One of my colleagues, a guy named Rick Stiggins, worked in the Assessment arena at Stanford addressing how to incorporate these tactics into the classroom.
Grading papers and then identifying what we called CFUs (Checks For Understanding - See Eff You git it - we laughed about the process) enable a good teacher to proceed into a lesson while checking on student participation and engagement with frequent inquiries to maintain interest and attention while directing or redirecting the flow of information.
These take TIME to prepare and some reflection.
As an experienced teacher gets better over time ( a concept you do not accept) the flow of dialogue and CFUs become a familiar pattern for learners, but these things are in constant flux as every group of kids is different, as different as the individuals within each group.
But, Mr. Gibbons, the TIME factor is one which you seem unable to accept. Teachers actually put in long days although your beloved DOL figures may say otherwise. These days they not only grade papers, devise appropriate lessons for differentiated learning, email parents, sponsor clubs, adjust syllabi, plan with other teachers, meet with administrators and take or teach classes outside the daily 7 -4 schedule at the school building. From what many others have said here on this rag including Patrick R Gibbons, teachers spend time doing these things, and this extra time apparently does not show up in the number of hours reported by DOL at 35 -37.
What is most disheartening is your constant intransigence in accepting the simple truths:
1) teachers work many hours outside of the classroom;
2) they get better over time because it's a big job that requires developing expertise in not only subject matter, curriculum and instruction, but also the externalities that interplay with student success like the aforementioned assessment piece, and integration of other classes into one's own - cross-curricular projects and studies that allow for what another colleague called over-learning, a guy named Ben Bloom who reached star status for his taxonomy of higher learning.
So as you indicate in your last post, you were interested in making the money, but simply chose not to do so because it required an investment that was simply beyond your capacity.
Yet you begrudge those stalwarts who chose to invest in their own development while being willing to 'take' their salaries??
Incompetent and intellectually dishonest from the get-go, Patrick R Gibbons.
It might have PSU with Rick Stiggins; I'm pretty sure it was Carol Dweck at Stanford and Rick Stiggins from Portland State who inspired a group of us in a summer course back a ways. Sorry.
Good luck an receiving a reply of any substance from Patrick, Joe. He's taken to calling people, partisan, dogmatic ideologues, slow, unable to comprehend, etc., instead of answering valid questions to his assertions.
He has never once answered my question regarding vouchers and where all those poor children are going to go to school in this city with them.
He won't answer the challenges to him regarding the actual amount of time teachers work.
So, good luck with that, Joe. If he has no answers or knows that the answers will contradict his claims about education, he will completely ignore them.
Thanks Shannon. I understand the poor Gibby in that he suffers from what Carol Dweck refers to as a"Fixed Mindset" Here's a cool article about how flexibility and willingness to fail and bounce back enable even dummies to discover that they can actually learn to get better at life. No, PRG, do NOT read this. It may inspire you!
http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/Renow...
Very interesting read, Joe. It reminds me of a very special math professor I had while getting my degree. Through his guidance, I got over my mental block and finally understood math, the hows and whys, and discovered I really liked it and was good at it. I was able to use my own struggles and discoveries to help my students push past the negativity to discover they could do it, too. I need to track him down and let him know what a powerful impact he had on me and how much I appreciate it.
Tip for all parents: Please, please, please, don't ever tell your kids that you weren't good at math (or any other subject) because they figure if mom and dad weren't good at it, it's no surprise that they aren't either, and therefore it's okay.
Actually Shannon, the poor Gibster has ALREADY contradicted his own holy self. When he was moaning about his only experience in the classroom, he mentioned that in spite of only making a measly$9 an hour, he actually did lesson plans, met with kids after school and did IEP meetings. so he knows he's full of crapola when he cites these goofy DOL numbers, but he WON'T admit it because it would be like accepting defeat.
The Carol Dweck research is pretty cool. She finds how folks 'get over themselves', how stories are better than facks and figgurs for inspiring and passing on meaning to others (Aristotle's Topic of Invention #8 - Significant Situation) and how some people totally catch on fire when they see their own progress.
I witnessed this phenomenon with GED kids who had thought (because they maybe had PRG for a teacher) that they were just dumb. Then they saw differently and kaBOOM, they were into their futures and goin for it like it mattered.
THE coolest math thing I ever learned is squaring two-digit numbers that end in 5, like say 35 X 35. Two easy rules: 1) last numbers are always ...25. 2) first numbers ya get from multiplying the first number (3) times the first number plus one (3 + 1 = 4) so it's 3 X 4 is 12 then 25, 35 X 35 is 1225. And kids can do it in their heads, get control of the notion of n + 1 and then something cool happens - they begin to factor.
"What's 75 X 25??" They think 75 is 3 times 25 and 25 X 25 is 2 X 3 (6) and a 25 for 625 so 3 of those is 1875. And they do it their HEADS! And feel smart.
"What's 85 squared?" (8 X 9) and a 25.
It's really handy for estimates and areas and rocket science and skill building, but it's super for self-esteem.
To everyone who contributed:
Thanks. It is my fervent hope that this forum will provide a venue to discuss viable solutions in hopes that the powers-that-be get the drift and do some type of action with them. If we can continue the positive discourse, we can perhaps arrive at certain actionable solutions.
I wish there is a way to prevent the clutter. When fanatics spew venom and insult others simply because they do not agree with them and closed minds refuse to even acknowledge ideas not like theirs, it simply does not contribute to logical discourse. Worst of all, when these fanatics run out of arguments, they resort to name-calling.
(Isn't democracy grand? Any one is free to be an idiot.)
Mr. Lamy,
Its clear you deal in making stuff up. It is also clear that you either don't know how to read or are too lazy to read.
The Department of Labor source was a survey. They asked teachers how many hours a week they work.
If you weren't such a dogmatic ideologue perhaps you would have taken the time to read the facts rather than making up your own.
Could you supply an evidence that you do any other work than make stuff up? At this point I don't believe anything you write.
Nancy,
The irony is you're the one who is ignoring facts. I present empirical research from respected institutions and you turn your nose up at it.
I think it has to do with the fact that you're ripping off taxpayers earning an extra $25,000 for a piece of paper that is not correlated with student achievement. I can't blame you for your behavior it is human nature to be self interested.
Patrick: I didn't see a link from what you are posting supposedly from the Department of Labor.
Here's what I found from the Department of Labor site:
"Many teachers work more than 40 hours a week, including school duties performed outside the classroom." http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos318.htm
"Professional and managerial employees often work beyond the established work schedule of the employer due to the requirements of their jobs. Because such workers are exempt from the overtime provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act, employers are not required to compensate them for the additional hours. If the hours worked are not compensated for, then they usually are not recorded. Collection of the actual hours normally worked would be the preferred way of determining the work schedule, but records of hours worked by exempt employees are usually not available. In most cases, the NCS collects the employer's best estimate of the hours normally worked by exempt employees. If the respondent is unwilling or unable to estimate the hours, then the normal work hours of other employees in the establishment are used.
The actual hours worked by elementary and secondary school teachers (who are exempt) are often not available. Time spent in lesson preparation, test construction and grading, providing additional help to students, and other nonclassroom activities are not available and therefore not recorded. The NCS uses contract hours for teachers in determining the work schedule.12 Contracts usually specify the length of the school day, the number of teaching and required nonteaching days, and the amount of time, if any, teachers are required to be in the school before and after school hours. These hours are used to construct the work schedule. For example, it is common for teacher contracts to specify that teachers will work 185 days per year. In these cases, the daily work schedule would be the length of the school day plus any time teachers are required to be in school before or after the school day, and the weekly work schedule would be the daily schedule multiplied by 5 days (Monday through Friday). The number of weeks would be 37 (185 days 5 days per week). The time not worked during summer, Christmas break, and spring break would be excluded from the work schedule and would not be considered vacation or holiday. Jobs in schools are not considered to be seasonal." http://www.bls.gov/opub/cwc/cm20080722ar...
Nothing, but personal attacks from Patrick yet again. Answer the questions I asked, Patrick.
Mr. Gibbons has emailed me repeatedly even after repeated comments asking him to refrain from doing so.
He has insulted the noble profession again and again and even here attacked a teacher whose credentials include numerous extra studies for which she paid out of pocket in order to improve her already considerable skills in the classroom.
Then he suggests that it is her motivation to steal money by providing services above and beyond the normal and expected services, which by the way, proved to be too much for Mr. Gibbons whose resume includes one failed year as a substitute teacher, under-educated, unqualified and incapable of retaining his position. So he walked away saying that a life as a teacher requires too much sacrifice and too little pay. This is the sentiment he expressed repeatedly on this very rag.
Then his incredulity continues as he asks folks to identify their means of income with substantial evidence even as he himself is paid as a regular poster here previously by NPRI and now as an independent because quite likely, even NPRI found both his nasty attitude and poor grammar and language abilities to be sub-par and a poor mouthpiece for even their ilk.
He constantly asperses excellence and denigrates humanity at every turn, calling teachers names, sending unwanted emails and launching unwarranted attacks on logic and decency in almost every single topic he spits on here.
His tendencies to project his own weaknesses and frailties serve only to lower the quality of discussion as his tirades and self-serving assaults draw attention away from issues that are actually important to many who regularly involve themselves here. I no longer find anything of value in his words because it's obvious his concerns are not for the betterment of anyone except Patrick R Gibbons, the western wrangler.
Can we please ignore him now? He is really not worth the space. PLEASE? Can we wait until he grows up? I deal with his kind every day at school. I don't want to do that here. This is supposed to be grown up conversation. OKAY?