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By J. Patrick Coolican (contact) 
Saturday, Nov. 13, 2010 | 2 a.m.
70,000
The difference between Nevada’s population last year and this year, according to state demographer Jeff Hardcastle. Official numbers from the U.S. Census Bureau, which the Legislature will base redistricting on, will be released in December.$1,026
Cost of renting a U-Haul truck in Las Vegas to drive to Dallas. (U-Haul rentals have largely been spared in the recession.) Renting a truck in Dallas to drive here, however, costs about half this amount because the company needs more trucks here.Sun archives
- All signs point to continuing Las Vegas exodus (9-2-2010)
- Lessons Las Vegas can learn from the Rust Belt (10-11-2009)
- More Nevadans will need help as economic storm worsens (9-27-2009)
- Nevada's jobless rate could hit 17 percent (9-25-2009)
- The potential for prosperity in Las Vegas (9-9-2009)
- Experts: Despite downturn, Las Vegas has hope (9-8-2009)
Sun Coverage
Jeremy Aguero
An economic shock causes a city’s main industry to falter, and its residents flee in droves in search of work elsewhere.
We could be talking about Seattle and its “Boeing recession” after the collapse of aerospace in the ’70s, or Odessa, Texas, in the ’80s after the price of oil plunged.
And according to some recent estimates of the region’s demographics, we might soon be placing Las Vegas in the same category.
Jeff Hardcastle, the state’s demographer, estimates Nevada has 70,000 fewer residents since last year, including about 50,000 fewer in Clark County.
Just as in those other cities, the population loss is in some ways entirely predictable.
“People moved here for economic opportunity, so we expected them to leave when some of those opportunities ran out,” said Jeremy Aguero, principal of the consulting firm Applied Analysis.
One need only check the price of a U-Haul. Renting a moving truck to drive to Dallas, which has been to a large degree spared during this recession, will cost you $1,026. Renting one in Dallas to drive here costs roughly half that because the company needs more trucks in Las Vegas.
Here’s what has likely happened so far, as Las Vegas enters its fourth year of recession: Thousands of workers, who have been laid off or lost their homes to foreclosure, have left the state to return to families in the East, California or Latin America. A prodigious birthrate, however, has helped Nevada replace some of those who have left, such that our population is either down a bit, flat or perhaps even up a bit.
Nevada’s official population number via the U.S. Census Bureau, which the state Legislature will use to redraw congressional and legislative districts, will be released in December.
The medium- and long-term pictures of local population trends are much less clear. The Sun interviewed economists, demographers, urban planners and community officials. Some say we have a bleak future, lumping us in with a long line of cities, often in the industrial Midwest, whose sadness never seems to abate, veering from economic contraction to population loss and back again.
Others express optimism that things will turn around relatively quickly and/or that the population loss or stagnation could be used to our advantage.
Let’s start with the optimistic scenario.
Rob Lang, director of Brookings Mountain West, moved to Las Vegas last year and thinks the worst is behind us economically, and, thus, demographically. “I’m not a believer in the grimmest scenario,” he said.
Lang, whose expertise is in urban planning and policy, relies on the demographic forecasts of the Washington-based firm Woods & Poole Economics, which forecasts fairly robust population growth here, of about 40,000 per year in Clark County, through the middle part of the decade. Lang said he thinks that estimate is likely a tad high and that actual growth will be more like 25,000 per year, mostly coming from new births, especially among Hispanics.
That population growth won’t happen, however, if there’s also a massive wave of Nevadans leaving the state. If there are no jobs, no one will move here, and people already here will leave.
Lang thinks if they were to leave, they would have left by now or will in the near future.
Aguero said he’s been somewhat surprised that more people haven’t left. His survey data show people have stayed because they are locked in underwater mortgages; they’ve put down roots here, which is a fairly surprising development; or they’ve decided there’s nowhere else to go.
Lang thinks our economic prospects are better than many of the doomsayers realize.
He points to cities hit hard by the savings-and-loan crisis of the early 1990s, which was a debt-fueled commercial real estate bubble that burst and left cities such as Denver, Houston and Phoenix reeling.
When those cities suffered their real estate collapses and finally cleared away the debris — with the help of the government’s Resolution Trust Corp. — they had an advantage relative to other cities: cheap real estate.
Similarly, Nevada real estate is again a comparative bargain next to California. As California recovers, residents there who aren’t underwater will be happy to sell their homes and move to Las Vegas for something cheaper and bigger.
Lang also thinks economic seeds — some unrecognized — are waiting to spring to life.
He cites the potential for Interstate 11 to Phoenix; the development of high-speed rail to Victorville, Calif.; the new terminal at McCarran International Airport; continued development of renewable energy projects; expertise in green building fostered by the construction of CityCenter; and the opportunity for Las Vegas to become a center for specialized expertise in the global gaming business, as Houston is in energy and Los Angeles in entertainment.
Even with population loss, Lang and some demographers argue, there could be some upside in the form of short-term fiscal relief. The absconders are likely unemployed, a drain on the unemployment insurance fund and possibly social services, while contributing little in the way of tax revenue.
Compared with Rust Belt cities, such as Pittsburgh, during their massive population losses, Lang said, “We have a better hand dealt to us.”
Other analysts are less sanguine.
“Growth begets growth, and decline begets decline,” Aguero said.
Economists see the employment picture brightening in other states while remaining stagnant here, which is a recipe for flight. Unemployment in Las Vegas is 15 percent, but when workers who are involuntarily part time or who have quit looking are included, the figure is above 20 percent. Tourism has taken a hit, while the region’s other main industry, construction, has suffered a near-fatal blow.
“The other shoe probably hasn’t dropped quite yet,” said Jim Russell, a Denver-based geographer who specializes in migration trends and consults for economic development agencies. “It should get worse,” he said, referring to population decline.
The most obvious problem with population decline is reduced economic activity — fewer people in restaurants and stores, and, most crucially, fewer people to fill empty homes, warehouses and offices.
Other problems are less obvious. Chris Briem, an economist at the University of Pittsburgh who has studied his region’s population loss, pointed to the type of people who leave — young risk-takers — as being the very people needed to help transform an economy.
John Restrepo, an economics consultant and vice chairman of state government’s Economic Forum, said we shouldn’t be so sure that the people who have left are surplus construction tradesmen or unskilled tourism workers.
He said in the past 18 months, he’s come across maybe 100 educated professionals who have left town. Most are in the development industry, including engineers, bankers and lawyers. As for those who graduated from high school a decade ago and went on to elite colleges out of state — don’t expect to see them returning, he said.
It’s not clear that civic, business and political leaders are in the right mind-set for the painful decisions required to adjust to the change.
Briem said that in Pittsburgh during the 1980s, economic development specialists were too focused on the past and what is derisively called “smokestack chasing” — trying to bring back heavy industry that was gone forever.
Las Vegas is built around the growth model, with economic decisions based on the idea that another 100,000 people are on their way. Can we shake loose that mind-set, and build a new economic model?
Bill Flanagan, vice president of corporate relations for the parent organization of Pittsburgh’s chamber of commerce, said his city had to break the mind-set among its people that they could graduate from high school and get a good job at a mill.
“It changed the message: Suddenly, it was, you need an education and you need to get some skills,” he said. Pittsburgh now has one of the most resilient economies in America and one of the best educated work forces.
The talk here is of maintaining, at best, the state’s mediocre schools even as government inevitably shrinks to close the budget deficit.
Increasing educational attainment, which is one of the few surefire ways to bring economic diversity and innovation, is taking a back seat to other priorities.
“If the government can’t find the political will to address the problem of an educated workforce,” Russell said, “then you start looking like Detroit.”
Even the ever-optimistic Lang said Las Vegas needs to get it right and achieve some economic diversity before the next recession comes.
Restrepo was blunter: “The question I’ve been posing is this: Is the Las Vegas economic model broken? We know it worked very well for many years, but do we truly need to reinvent ourselves? And do we have the political will to do it?”
Who knows what will happen, Dip, at best the so called experts quoted in the article are just making an educated guess as to what will happen. We've been experiencing conditions almost as severe down here in Phoenix. You know there may be something to the idea that part of the loss in population is due to departing construction workers. When things were booming they were arriving here in droves and when the bottom fell out, you couldn't get a construction job if your life depended on it and they were and are leaving town just as fast. I prefer to see the glass half full. From what I can see this could be a great opportunity and things could get turned around for Nevada, if (and I know it's a big if) the politicians do what they are paid to do, which is to lead. I agree that the education situation needs to be addressed if there is to be any hope for the future. Also, the economy needs to diversify. Let us learn from the recent debacle. If we don't, there is no hope.
Maybe Las Vegas needs a change of image, and one path to glory is to rename it. How about Fredericksburg, after the news editor that helped empower the local Morlocks into thinking they had opinions?
Is that a bad thing, to have the city and state become smaller in population? Las Vegas is way over built, which created many of it's own problems. Without the housing bust and at the rate homes were being built, the low salaries paid, who in the hell could afford to live here? It's no wonder realtors and banks cheated the system.
haha!
there's that "economic diversity" stuff again.
vegas thinks diversity is having a cannery casino on both the east AND north side of town.
LV suffers from too much traffic- its bad for the air, and totally annoying for travel.
If 50,000 people have left, lets take these ugly disgusting housing projects that were built these past 10 years, move the people out of them into homes that reflect some sort of thought process and ingenuity in there design and have at least 5 feet distance between each house and tear down many of those disgusting new neighborhoods. That will both help construction worker employment, housing prices and give us a chance to re-do this cities housing to resemble quiant neighborhoods as oppoesed to rows of boxes.
Numero Uno, all building of high density housing needs to stop. For that matter, any construction of buildings needs to occur on a carefully analyzed and planned action of doing so based on NEED and that it is SUSTAINABLE. Las Vegas has virtually painted itself into a corner with growth. There is a magnificent 40 year plan in place cooperatively created by the City and County Planning Commissions, left with a tad bit of wiggle room. But there are mitigating variables, such as WATER, a very essential and vital commodity without which, nothing happens.
So sharpen your pencils all you want, when it comes down to putting it all down folks, Las Vegas must have growth that is SUSTAINABLE. Thank You.
As a young medical professional who moved to Las Vegas in 2006 I have come to realize that my opportunities are much better elsewhere. Like the previous posts say, a lack of a diverse economy really has hurt Las Vegas. From a medical professional's viewpoint there are few large corporations and businesses (besides low paying casino industry) that offer people quality insurance compared to other areas of the country. Things were good for us before the recession but now look bleak. I am partially destroying my credit here so I can rebuild faster elsewhere. I really did like Las Vegas!
Bush & Chenny tore this country apart financially.
Obama made promises he could not keep. We do not have leadership waiting in the wings. The United States is severly divided into the (Have's & Have not's).
The (Have Nots expect to be taken care of by the Have's). It is not going to happen. We have too much Government. "Start there". It will not go away.
A smaller Las Vegas can be a better Las Vegas. People have very short memories, and even this essay looks back only about 15 years, willingly drinking the Kool-Aid of "growth for growth's sake."
The massive population boom of 1994-2006 was false in most traditional senses of the word "boom." It was largely an illusion caused by a heavy influx of essentially migrant construction labor and a concurrent shadow population of home investors.
Meteopolitan Las Vegas was healthiest when it had 1 million residents and 25 million annual visitors. There needs to be an assessment of the Las Vegas story that reaches back further than 1995 for its historical perspective. Without that, people will be stuck trying to replicate the illusion of 2003, when the reality of 1993 is a better starting point as we move forward.
Good post James, right on mark.
As long as Obama,Reid,and Pelosi are in power, Las Vegas and Nevada will continue to decline.
Obama hates Las Vegas. How many times does he have to tell you.
Being a construction worker used to be like farm work, you moved where the work was.
The problem we have now is many of the construction workers that came here have been staying here even though there is no work. Some of the union commercial construction workers have not seen a job in over two years yet they are still hanging out here.
I can understand part of it because there is not a lot of construction work anywhere right now but they either have to move on or learn to do something else. Union commercial construction work will not be coming back to Vegas in a big way for many years.
Vegas will come back, it always does bigger and better each time there is a downturn but it takes time. If you don't have work, move on and find it. The public system can not hold out forever taking care of you.
Hold on folks, I think we are in for a bumpy ride...
Yes, yes it will, but nice shocking headline.
I went house hunting in 2004, when we still had the boom. Every single realtor I spoke with told me a similar story: that by 2010, there would be no more land left to build upon, and construction would slow way, way down. I was advised to buy a house while they were still affordable. (And they weren't affordable, as we all now know.) If there were even a shred of credibility to what they said, then the construction industry would have still taken a significant hit right about this time. Boom or bust, some of this was destined to happen no matter which political party one would like to blame.
Dumb. People are dumb. I can't get over the construction worker who was featured in the Sun complaining that he couldn't get any Union work after 8 years of easy street. Of course, in that time, he had children. Ages were 6, 5, 4, 3, and 2. Hello?
I worked construction my whole life, traveled to 22 states and had one kid. One. Because life ain't easy in construction. You wanna' work, you better travel. Sorry, but it's time to move on, out of Vegas.
Economic diversification has been talked about for a long time, but little has changed. We lack money for investment, and interested investors. We also have an apathetic public, without much community spirit. For many newer residents, Las Vegas is a parking place, not a home for generations past or future.
Lang said he thinks that estimate is likely a tad high and that actual growth will be more like 25,000 per year, mostly coming from new births, especially among Hispanics.
Thar's a depressing thought. We don't need more low class scum to fill our streets.
Glad to hear it! I'd like to see more U-Hauls heading in ALL directions outta this valley!
Greed made this city, and broke this city! I stay here because I like the over 300 days of sunshine we get a year, and low humidity.
I predict the housing crisis to take at least ten years to recover, maybe 7. We won't see single digit unemployment figures till at least 2015!
My neighbor, moved here from S.Cali, 2006/ paid $325K for his two bedroom townhouse, it's now worth, like $185k, according to zillow.com. He paid cash, cause' he sold his mediocre home in Anaheim for a million. You know he's not going anywhere, for quite some time. But, it's always nice NOT to have a mortgage payment!
The real wave of deserters will be when the banks finally kick these people out of their homes, who haven't made a mortgage payment in over a year!
It's getting better slowly (British Airways announced their London-Vegas flight the most popular EVER, and they're changing to a 747, rather than the smaller 777 in June 2011)
Will the glory days of the 1990's ever return? Who knows-as long as the sun keeps shining, the Brits will come here in droves, as long as their Pound Sterling stays strong!
Think as the nation is a home.
What's is the expenses you cut on thought times? Normally is the entertaining expenses, thats is the reason why this city is seen thought times, this is a city who lives from entertaining.
What we can do?
Diversification of the local economy or waiting to the recovery of the nation economy. The very last expense that you do, when you have a relief, is in entertaining.
Some people wants bring Las Vegas to his initial status, remenber on the very beginning Las vegas was a point on middle of the desert for watering the caravans crossing and over here you could found fun (drinks, gamble, protitucion, etc.) now they want Las vegas be a point on the desert where the people who come here to leave his radiactive waste can find fun (drinks, gamble, protitucion, etc.) NO YUCCA MOUNTAIN.
In conclusion, there are two option, change the revenue source or wait; maybe the second could take too much time. So maybe there is only one option.
I think the key thing here is what kenodave pointed out, though I would choose a different way to say it. If the population stabilizes or grows, it will probably be due to the Hispanic birth rate, PERIOD. And didn't we read an article a while ago that said 1 in 4 Hispanic births here are already from illegals. That does not bode well for a future demographic with respect to attracting a diversified and thriving economy. Already Metro's "most wanted" is dominated by Hispanics (see their website) and it is likely to get worse. I think many retirees might want to relocate here at first glance, but home inventories keep rising, home prices keep falling, and good jobs are hard to find. The only things going up seem to be crime and the minority populations.
When you have a bad situation, take a good look at it and see if there are any positives to glean from the situation.
During the current economic crisis, I rather doubt if you will find any industry or business that would move to Las Vegas and employ enough workers to stabilize the local economy.
Those industries and businesses that are already in Las Vegas will not expand their operations until the economy improves and Congress addresses the taxing structure.
One big potential economic asset out there are retirees and baby boomers preparing for retirement. Some benefits of retirees that would be financially able to relocate to Las Vegas are:
Purchase a home within their income means with a small mortgage or no mortgage at all.
Will not take up jobs in the employment base.
Are financially secure and will not add to public assistance.
Most likely will not flood our schools with children.
Are less likely to create more work for law enforcement.
Are more likely to be covered under a health insurance system.
Pay taxes, and more taxes...
Have enough disposable income to enjoy the local attractions and businesses.
And the list goes on and on...
Financially stable retirees are like little businesses that are receiving their income from outside sources and spending it in Las Vegas...
"Lang also thinks economic seeds -- some unrecognized -- are waiting to spring to life.
He cites the potential for ...; the development of high-speed rail to Victorville, Calif.; "
-----
Victorville? VICTORVILLE?
Population in July 2009: 110,921.
Estimated median household income in 2008: $52,999
Estimated per capita income in 2008: $17,418
Estimated median house or condo value in 2008: $246,700
Median gross rent in 2008: $1,153.
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2008: 21.3%
Victorville - A small city of 110K with a per capita of 17K and a poverty rate of 21%.
Now there's a reason to spend 100s of millions of tax payers money on high speed rail. A real who's who of destinations. If this is an example of urban, state and national planning, well, it's no wonder the nation is broke.
Hey honey, one more reason to move to Vegas.. high speed rail to Victorville. And while Victorville has grown greatly since 2000, I doubt the primary reason is access to Vegas.
A whole lot of words from a whole lot of people...saying essentially...NOTHING.
Newspaper "filler' is getting to be a bad habit for the RJ and Sun.
There has been "noticeably less" news focus on human interest pieces.
Of course, the reason why is clear.
But PEOPLE are still the central theme in a socially evolving society.
Hey! We may have just discovered something here!
Amazing. Not one fricken mention by the "experts" of the baby-boomers that love cheap condos, warm weather, VA hospitals, golf, shopping, casino buffets, and quick-access airports that connect to everywhere.
Hmmm. I wonder where that would be?
All I know is that Las Vegas was a better place to live when I moved here back in '85 and the population was a lot smaller. I for one will not shed any tears if a few more people where to decide Vegas ain't for them.
"The problem we have now is many of the construction workers that came here have been staying here even though there is no work. Some of the union commercial construction workers have not seen a job in over two years yet they are still hanging out here."
__________
Well, one of the reasons they have been staying put is because they have continued to get unemployment benefit extensions. I know a couple of guys in the carpenters union and they haven't worked in a couple of years now on a union project, yet they still collect unemployment along with doing under the table "side work". But I suspect all this will change now that the election is over and the Democrats don't need to buy votes.
I hate Bush and Cheney MORE than the next guy, but to say THEY caused the housing crash is ignorant. Yes, they did de-regulate some of the key pieces and cause the OVERALL financial downturn, but it was just GREED that caused the housing crash. Too many people buying too many houses at obviously overinflated costs.
Now, I feel bad for the couple who only owned the one home and was honestly committed to doing the right thing, but most of the loss was from specualation, and GREED.
I support Las Vegas and other local communities to start bulldozing old residential areas and vacant commercial properties. I'm glad that construction has stopped and certain people are moving out of Las Vegas. I moved here in 1994 and enjoyed this town. The big money real estate developers just kept on building, pocketing the cash, and not seeing the future. Las Vegas can prosper and it doesn't take building houses 5 feet apart to accomplish that. Rip out the old trash and build new neighborhoods with breathing space for the owners.
A credit-based economy that doesn't create any real wealth cannot survive.
Ghost Town, here we come!
Behind every good there is a bad and visa versa. This desert is dry and our water use is up. With people leaving, it will help in that situation. That is good versus bad. The gaming dollar has been cut so many times, truely the only thing we have is entertainment. Gaming dollar cut bad, entertainment dollar good. More people leaving will open more jobs, that's a good thing. People will move in and, out like the oceans tides. Our county will equal, once our economy stabilizes. All of this will take (A LOT) more time but it will happen. No matter what, sooner or later the goverenment will realize, they can no longer can continue their unbridled spending, nor can we as a society. Stay focused on life and remember the Jones will always have more. So STOP TRYING TO STAY UP WITH THEM!!
This could be an opportunity for Las Vegas to take a deep breath and look at what direction it wants to go.
One thing for sure. Speculated housing construction should be curtailed until housing begins to make a correction.
Anyone looking for a job need not look too far from Pittsburgh in fact look about 5o miles south in the Washington and Greene counties where they cant find enough people to fill open jobs in the gas drilling industry. Pennsylvania sits on trillions of cubic yards of natural gas and the drilling and related companies are begging for people. Cost of living in these areas are the best in the state and of course Pittsburgh is always ranked high if not highest in the country for low cost of living, great schools and excellent health care industry.
With the growth of gas drilling comes growth in education, heath care and any other business you may want to try. The local casinos are now looking at adding additional jobs with the table games by needing more dealers and others.
p
Less traffic, less pollution, less crime, more water, I vote for a less populated Nevada!!!
Does this mean the illegals are now leaving the area?
Perhaps if Las Vegas cleaned up their indoor air pollution by going comepletely smoke free, more people would move there. Who wants to smell like an ashtray everytime to eat, see a show or play the machines? Nothing else to do there, but visit a casino.
435 seats in the House of Representatives will be reallocated among the states based on population. Dividing the current estimate of the U.S. population by 435 gives about 714 thousand people per Representative. At that ratio, Nevada would have to have had a 2010 population of 2.8 million to get a 4th Representative. But it looks like we only had a population of about 2.6 million.
When I moved to Henderson in 2000, I bought a book about video poker at the Gamblers book store. One important point it made was to check the payoffs on basic video poker. The key was that full houses should pay 9, and flushes should pay 6. That was fair. In the old days.
Now, Eastside Cannery changed its odds to 8 and 5 at the bar. Bad. But yesterday, I was at Fiesta Henderson, and they now pay 7 and 5. Pitiful. They try to hide their odds by only having "double-double" stuff on the casino floor, but there is no doubt that the casinos are a total no-win place. So play if you want, you are going to lose more and more. Buyer beware...
With Arizona's new immigration laws, the population of Nevada can't do anything but go up...
Here is a little idea how to improve the image:
The 6th commandment:
"You shall not commit adultery"
The "catholic" interpretation of it:
Sex before the marriage is "sin" and once married, it has to stay this way, to the end of life, otherwise hell awaits, or something like that.
The real intention:
First of all, what if "marriage" actually has a slightly different meaning, than most people would suspect? What if the definition is slightly broader, that it may seem at the first sight? Let's define it simply as a bond, a connection between humans, something which establishes a relationship (be it a friendship, spiritual/sexual, through children ... or whatever nature).
What if it absolutely doesn't matter if the relationships are straight, gay, lesbian or even polygamic ones a la Mormons?
What the so called "religous authorities" have yet to figure out, that there is a reason behind any of God's creations - how about creating a stage to experience? - and that the various sexual orientations, are actually meant to be lived out and not suppressed.
What is the meaning of adultery then?
There isn't any need for a treatise 3294 pages long to explain this, because it can be done within a couple of seconds with one simple Jesus sentence:
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
Which translates to:
You shall live your relationships in a way, that they're mutually beneficial.
The "marriage" in its true sense is therefore a "connection" between human beings - not something exclusively limited to one single person, to stay with for an entire life - which should be lived in a way, that the "connected" persons do not hurt each other through various negative deeds (which leads to accumulation of bad karma), but rather make sure, that the other "half" is fine with one's own behaviour and therefore both enjoy it.
It is possible therefore to have as many relationships as one pleases, with whomever you like, as long as everyone involved is fine with it.
There isn't any problem to terminate a relationship ANYTIME, if the "connected" persons feel the need to and it's not one sided (in this case bad karma will follow).
As far as sexuality goes masturbation never was a "sin" (bad karma accumulation), you can have as many sexual partners as you like in any relationship (if that's ok for the partner), prostitution is not a "sin" - like anything with "sex" attached to it - , but a job like any other (if it is done voluntarily) and there isn't such a thing as "deviant" sexuality, because everything was created to experience.
The real sinners and "deviants" are the Opus Dei types and their creations like the catholic church who believe they're with God and feel the need to --> force <-- their type of sexual "morality" on anyone, but in reality are deluded fools who by and large do devil's work this way.
Maybe one day they'll realize, why the people in Asia are far more relaxed and what this has to do with their attitude towards sexuality.
There isn't any need for a state or a church to interfere with a God's law, but they'll do it anyway, because that means control (the reason of existence for the institution of marriage).
Due to 2.000 years of catholic conditioning it is probably not going to happen in the next 150 years, but the reason for the pedophile drive (which is far more common that it may seem at the first sight) is the sexual nature of the child.
Which doesn't mean of course, that there should be sexual intercourse with a child, but rather exposing it to sex and sexual energy and "appropriate" - beneficial! - forms of sexuality from very early on as a sort of sexual "education" and therefore to make it as naturally as tooth brushing.
Once this is accomplished all the forms of sexuality who had up until now to hide in the dark (homosexuality, prostitution, pedophilia ...) will come to light, which will end the disgusting hypocrisy, which is the result of two millenia of insanity.
Once it becomes acceptable for a porn star, to become a pop star or a famous actress and for a prostitution to become a priestess, probably 2/3 of the illnesses which plague the civilization now will disappear.
The real "religous right" is actually a revolutionary force.
I agree with Area51 in that some illegals may be leaving town because I think I saw FOSimmons sitting on the rail outside of Star Nursery today holding a sign saying: "Will Work For Vodka."
A smaller Las Vegas, around 1985 was a better Las Vegas in many ways.
More on it:
"actually adultery is forbidden in the new testsment -- beyond the ot command -- Jesus said if we look at a woman to lust after her we have committed adultery in our heart. in the ot, a stonable offense
male homosexuality also a stonable offense in the ot -- and the nt says those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God"
Actually the New Testament wasn't written by Jesus and as far as the old goes, you have no clue who put it alltogether and with what intention, so it is rather advisable not to rely on it too literally.
"polygamy is a different matter. we are to be joined to our wife for life. as for more than one wife, well the ot is full of examples of Godly men in polygamous relationships. in the nt leaders in the church are described as to be the husband of one wife. many denominations thereby forbid clergy to be divorced and remarried."
Should be also fine with the "religous" people.
"as for children Jesus said they have angels that always behold the Father and we are not to harm them in any way. whether or not exposing them to sexuality is harming them is debatable -- however in our society it is certainly frowned upon and we see a multiplicity of problems especially in cases of molestation."
Are you aware of the symbolism behind it? Accepting pedophilia means that sexuality is innocent. Since you have been conditioned for ages by the Opus Satanus/Baphometus crowd to believe sexuality is pure evil, that goes after the "innocence", today's hysteria is the result.
"prostitution well we have rahab the harlot as one of Jesus' ancestors. also I believe it was Tamar? who pretended to be a harlot and ended up bearing a son to Judah himself -- and this son became a direct ancestor as well. also we see the prostitute washing Jesus' feet with her hair and tears. whoremongers however are specifically mentioned as not to inherit the Kingdom."
The problem with the "religous" people is, that they get their inspiration not from their divine self, but from very unreliable books.
"lesbianism is not addressed in the ot but in Romans it sure is. there is quite a litany of sins listed but we have to all remember we are all guilty of one or more ourselves -- we all need the Blood of Jesus to take away our sins, and we need to love one another here as we abide til He comes back. we are not to beat our fellow servants."
What about the sin, that you should not condemn people, that didn't do any harm to you?
"we are to love even our enemies. it is far too easy to get all self righteous about those particular sins we do not commit. but meanwhile we each have our own sins and we are to confess those and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."
If that's true, the US "religous" right shouldn't have the slightest problem with any type of sexuality "out of norm".
"we are bought with a price. the ultimate price of Jesus' Blood."
You have no clue - Jesus is an example, that everyone has to follow.
"we are told to flee fornication and youthful lusts. we are to strive for holiness -- not using our liberty as a cloak for vice."
For this reason it was a very fun living in the middle ages, compared to let say ancient Greece.
"all things are lawful but not all things are profitable. specifically male homosexuality yields due penalty -- received in men's bodies in return for their error. we certainly see this happening in modern times."
The error may be just in you head - ever considered this?
"finally I'm going to mention divorce. allowed by Moses due to our hardened hearts but Jesus forbad it. possibly one of the most practiced sins yet virtually ignored as such nowadays."
You have to figure out the true meaning of this first.
"the title of this thread is certainly in error."
I dare to assert, rather not, cause this is a "coproduction" with two other adepts.
"kind of irritable hope this doesn't come across as harsh"
I hope so, because this is going to happen once you find out, that you have been deluded all your life.
"love peace and joy"
Was a nice reading ... Thanx
To LVPravdaFan,
Don't know what we're supposed to take away from all that, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't chase even more people away from Las Vegas. Thumbs up to all the discussion about sex, though. Can never have too much of that.
Just how does one determine if "A prodigious birthrate..." that compensates for a loss of population seeking work in another area is a cure or a curse for economic recovery in Las Vegas or any other community?
I think the Las Vegas economy will get stronger in the next few years. Wealthy people will buy homes here and maintain their residency here if only to avoid the high California or New York taxes. Taxes are a big motivator to what people do. Californians bring their pension and investment money to our region. It is win win for the real estate industry and the restaurant business.
The "Fisherman" is right on point. Las Vegas leaders should take a good look of making a honest effort to attract financially solvent retirees to relocate to Las Vegas...
Anyone with any whits has gotten out by now!After looking for over 2 years for work in vegas,where i live now it took less than 6 1/2 hrs and had a full time job with bennies!And i dont have to worry about the homeless either,there arent any here!!!
We are long time visitors and made two visits this summer. After those trips we have no plans to visit again in the near future. As most visitors now know Vegas has become one big ripoff.. Every person I hear talking about Vegas has no immediate interest in returning. Mind you, this has nothing to do with the people of Vegas. The problem is the greedy corporations that due to huge amounts of debt are squeezing every last dollar out of the visitor. Nobody likes to feel hosed. My customers come back because they get a fair deal and feel we appreciate their business. The water faucet has been turned down for Vegas and that will not fill the bucket under the current structure.