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Leila Navidi / File photo
Looking west, cars and trucks drive on Interstate 15 in and out of Mesquite. State transportation officials want to test a device to track the distance vehicles drive on state roads as a way to fund construction projects.
Tuesday, March 30, 2010 | 2:01 a.m.
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The Nevada Department of Transportation has quietly developed a device it could use to track vehicles and charge drivers based on distance, routes and times of day they travel the state’s roadways.
The “black box,” built in cooperation with UNLV and UNR, is part of the state’s effort to find a better way to fund highway construction and maintenance. The Transportation Department wants to begin testing the boxes within the next year, but is encountering opposition from privacy advocates.
The black boxes would represent a dramatic shift away from the gasoline and diesel taxes that have paid for publicly funded roads. But a change is necessary, officials say, because as vehicles have become more fuel efficient, the fuel tax hasn’t kept pace with infrastructure needs.
The response from transportation policy experts has been to push a system that charges taxes based on vehicle miles traveled — or VMTs. This includes, in some locations, paying more for driving during peak times.
But Rebecca Gasca, public advocate for the American Civil Liberties Union of Nevada, said the state’s proposal “raises huge red flags.” The group will oppose “any information-collecting method that would threaten individual privacy rights and allow the government to create an infrastructure for routine surveillance of citizens,” she said.
The state Transportation Department will hold a public meeting today in Reno and another in late April in Las Vegas to discuss moving forward with a pilot program to test ways of tracking miles driven. The pilot program would offer volunteers a variety of options, including placement of one of the department’s black boxes in their vehicles.
“We’d offer a range of alternatives — from odometer readings all the way up to full GPS units that could capture the time of day, the route you are on, the area you are in,” said Scott Rawlins, the Transportation Department’s deputy director. “At the end of the day, it will be the policymakers who ultimately determine what’s right for the public.”
Zong Tian, an assistant professor at UNR, leads the team of researchers developing the device. (The Transportation Department and the Regional Transportation Commission of Washoe County each contributed $100,000 to the project; the Regional Transportation Commission of Southern Nevada contributed $60,000. If they were manufactured for use in Nevada, state transportation officials say they would cost about $200-$500 each.)
Tian said the device can be adjusted to accommodate “different levels of privacy protection: It could just be summary data — how many miles you drove on state highways, how many on local roads. It doesn’t have to track every second of movement.”
While privacy advocates acknowledged many aspects of the proposal have yet to be resolved, Gasca said, “I doubt there will be any answers that mollify our privacy concerns.”
Gasca said her group would support an annual odometer reading, but transportation policy experts note that would not tax out-of-state drivers for their use of Nevada’s roads.
Still, the state’s effort to find an alternative to the gas tax does have its supporters.
The Nevada Highway Users Coalition, which includes labor unions, public officials and construction company associations, said it supports moving forward with the VMT study.
“There are a lot of concerns, but this is the beginning of a study,” said Buzz Harris, assistant executive director of the Nevada chapter of the Associated General Contractors. “This is the beginning of going through iterations of how this is going to come about. Obviously, our system is broken.”
Nevada will face a $6 billion shortfall in highway infrastructure funding by 2016, according to Transportation Department estimates.
Meanwhile, the state’s gasoline tax has remained at its current level of 23 cents — which includes local and state taxes — since 1992.
Transportation consultants say that as cars become more fuel efficient, and hybrids and electric cars become more common, the share they pay for highway wear and maintenance declines.
“We can have a debate for the next 45 years on privacy issues, it’s not even a worthy debate,” said Tom Skancke, a transportation consultant based in Las Vegas. “People worried about being tracked should give up their cell phones. Give up OnStar.
“It’s a cultural shift, but we have to make it. Are people not going to like it? Absolutely.”
Skancke said future federal transportation bills could include funding for VMT pilot programs, even though President Barack Obama has opposed such proposals.
Rawlins said, “The bottom line is I believe a certain sector of the public out there does not mind. They utilize OnStar system in their vehicle. If they have an emergency, they want rescue officials to find them. They see a benefit.
“Maybe we have an opt-in type system, where you might get a better rate per mile based on the technology you’re using.”
The purpose of the pilot program is to accumulate enough data so the Legislature can make an informed policy decision.
Paul Enos, CEO of the Nevada Motor Transport Association, said his group is primarily concerned about an increase in collection costs with a shift from a fuel tax to one based on tracking miles traveled.
Collecting the current fuel tax requires low administrative overhead, he said, while pilot programs in other states have shown VMT systems to be costlier.
Enos said right now, the administrative cost on fuel tax is just 2 1/2 cents on the dollar. Other states’ pilot programs have had costs of up to 20 percent.
Here comes Big Brother, and his monster is off the leash and hungry..
On the one hand, government wants to regulate everything we do. Then, as those restrictions take place and the unintended consequences of lost revenue takes hold, government has to find another way to punish taxpayers.
2 or three years ago, a water district of an east coast state, VA or NC, seen that people were listening and reducing their water consumption. The government run water district raised rates.
Nice.
Do what IL does. Add tolls. That would solve the $$ shortfall, increase revenue through a usage fee and would not violate privacy. Not to mention that it would be much cheaper to implement AND create a few more jobs.
WOW - I came up with that off the top of my head at 6:26am, the first time I looked at this article. It didn't cost $260,000 to do it either.
Gems of Nirvana
Still moving to Vegas in April because WI is STILL worse. :-)
Why don't they just raise the gas tax a few cents per gallon?
Your right Gems of Nirvana, Wi is one of the highest tax paying states, does Nevada still have no state tax? If you live in the Milwaukee area like i do we are still paying for Miller Park, which I think is crap.
Had enough government yet? The carbon dioxide breath meters to tax your CO2 output are in the works.
On other news, a thirteen year old hacker has just learned how to reset the black box so that you'll actually travel negative miles.
More money, more money, more money. That is the only goal of the taxing agencies as they search for ways to maintain their status in the economic basket. No one is to be missed and no means to take more from the people so the communal good can be decided by those in power.
Wait for the "deficit reduction" commission to make their report and demand a national sales tax to fund government. Taxing carbon dioxide, the results of living, along with a national sales tax will allow THEM to decide how YOU live in every aspect and TAKE what they decide is THEIR share and leave you only what THEY decide.
Nice country.
You never want to suggest raising taxes. Once it gets accepted, it will never stop. It's bad enough as it is. I'm not a smoker, but I think the cigarette tax is about $147.00 a pack or something. :-) - Of course I'm kidding, but it is $2.52 per pk. It goes to fund this and that. However, what happens when people really start cutting back and revenue falls for all the programs being funded.
Liberals best friend, Mr. Taxes will come once again.
User fees, while they can be high, would be the best answer I think. Tolls. 35 cents per vehicle passing through really adds up. Still, it kind of stinks, but it's better than taxing.
GemsofNirvana :
I really can't believe that you are going to move here to Las Vegas. I'm tellin ya, it's a mistake! your teens are going to hate it here, and you will find it is NOT a user friendly place to live. Take my advice and stay where you are at least until your kids are grown up and out.
I appreciate that suggestion. My hope is that my basketball player step-sons will stay active and want to stay close to home since there is an indoor b-ball court in the area.
My wife loves it there and she is being transferred.
Lastly, we are just sick of the cold and the midwest. Our taxes are ridiculous, our bridges are falling down, the environmental regulations are overbearing and we've just had enough.
The ACLU is right on this one.
And here I was looking for a free ride. I'm going to buy an electric vehicle, and then I wouldn't have to pay gasoline taxes anymore because I wouldn't use any!
But seriously, this is why the black box is needed - gasoline taxes were fine when everyone used gas. As things switch towards electricity, hydrogen, etc, the ability to tax those goes away (hydrogen can be made at home using steam-reformed natural gas).
I support odometer readings, I'd only trust the black box if they open sourced the hardware and software for everyone to look at and examine to verify it wasn't doing anything malicious in terms of data collection.
This is another nonscense idea comming from from California. We do not need more government or taxes. Clark County already has a gas tax in addition to the state gas tax. The governor should fire the NDOT Director and send her and her suggestion packing!
You can wrap aluminum foil around one of those black boxes and it will not transmit anything.
How about all the tourists and their cars? How do they get taxed?
Well that should make the cost of everything that travels by road go up. So if you drive a high mpg car you get penalized because you'll be taxed at the same rate as an SUV...only because the tax revenue from not consuming so much gas has been reduced. Same principal in regards to the water example already listed. The government will continue to find little nooks and crannies to add taxes. Remember what Ceasar said, "Divide and conquer". Future taxes will continue to nip away at one group or the other.
Guess I will license my car out of Utah.
This is total garbage. Attend the meeting and tell them no way.
I'm sick of government taxing.
Really stupid idea. Let's not let it happen.
Its an invasion of privacy and just another way for BIG brother to monitor everyones activities. Just because we have the technology to do this doesn't mean its right or it should be done.
We continue to screw ourselves as a state and a country because BS ideas such as these keep coming along and in some cases adopted because its all about the money,...it always is. Anyone ever heard of Hitler?
I know that this has been batted around in other states. California and Oregon have openly talked about in the last few years. Iowa was one state that had a test project going on last year through the University of Iowa. I really don't like the big brother aspect of it, but there are some good aspects. I'm curious if they will take the configuration of the vehicle into account as well as where and when you drive. I would have to think that some vehicles are harder on roads than others and that fuel taxes come close to catching that. One reason that they are looking at this is that almost no jurisdiction has been willing to raise fuel taxes in years. In Iowa it had been well over 10. Well, costs go up and people have been moving to more efficient vehicles, so you'd think taxes should have gone up but they don't. I don't like higher taxes but that is one place where there would seem to be a good justification for it. At least a fuel tax seems to encourage people to be economical. This method might do more to help limit congestion on some roadways. But will it lead to people who live on lightly traveled roads paying very high prices to drive there? There are a lot of unanswered questions.
My biggest fear is that this will end up being like the value-added tax that the Feds keep talking about. It will be one more tax that we pay but it won't replace another tax. I sometimes think that politicians like having lots of types of taxes so that there are many places to enhance revenues. I think it would be better if we had fewer and more visible taxes so that citizens had a better idea of what they actually pay for government.
thanks, welfare moms!
if the working people of this nation did not constantly have to support people that squirt out kids they can't afford, we wouldn't need this stuff.
VOTE REPUBLICAN!
when are you liberals going to WAKE UP!?
Guys n' Gals: This is the "Hegelian dialectic" at work-- (Problem-Reaction-Solution). What they *REALLY* want is to raise the fuel tax by a substantial amount. They know that there would be tremendous opposition to this, so they give us a truly HORRIBLE alternative, which we then bitch about, and in the end BEG THEM to raise the fuel tax instead! (The very thing we would have rejected if that were given as the only choice up front is DEMANDED by the people.) They have no intentions of actually implementing this electronic monitoring device-- it would be too expensive, and they would actually lose more revenue than they would gain. No, they are going to SUBSTANTIALLY raise the fuel tax-- say, by 25 cents per gallon. AND THE SHEEPLE WILL BEG FOR IT. Bahhhhhh! Bahhhhh! Give us a higher fuel tax! Bahhhhhh!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!! Silly brainwashed sheeple....
Let me get this straight...
In a previous story, the insurance companies were going to install "blue boxes" to determine speed and braking.
Now, I read that the state wants to install "black boxes" to determine, at a minimum, vehicle miles traveled.
Let one in, they all will get in. It will never stop. Sensors for this, sensors for that. Just fall in line. Anybody that gets out of line will pay the price.
I got news for the electric and hydrogen people. You will be subject to the boxes too... If you use the roads, you will pay. Its not about the fuel, its about the tax for the highway departments.
I am serious, if one box gets in... If they are able to get inside your car for any reason. Its "Katie bar the door". Its all over with.
Expect chips on your home thermostats next...
The stupid in these comments is immense.
The Palin-Americans posting above cant seem to understand that as people buy more efficient gasoline cars, and switch to alternative fuels (electricity, hydrogen) gas tax revenues go down, all while costs to build roads goes up.
This is a replacement tax for those who would otherwise get a free ride by not paying any taxes. If I buy a Chevy Volt and only put gas in it once every three months, I go from paying $255/yr is gasoline taxes (51c/gal at 480 gal/yr) to paying $16.32/yr (51c/gal at 32 gal/yr). You're the one who is going to have to pick up my slack. Why should you subsidize me? I'm driving 11,000 miles a year, but paying a fraction of my share to maintain the roads.
Where exactly do you expect the state to get money for roads and highways as people switch to these new vehicles and get off of oil from Saudi Arabia and Venezuela?
Like I said before, if you want limited government, strangled by a lack of tax revenue then move to Somalia where they have no formal government whatsoever. See how quickly you want to come back to "socialist" USA.
The state of Nevada is already getting your odometer readings each and every year.
When you have your smog check done they have to enter it into the computer and that is transmitted to DMV withing seconds of your test being completed. Does not take any expensive black boxes or anything else, they already have the information as long as you have the type of car that requires a smog check.
They won't just add a few pennies to the gas tax when they can devise an entirely new way to track every movement of every citizen. Big Brother is alive and well in LV. OR they are using this as a threat to get citizens to want an increase in the gas tax.
You guys don't have all the details.
Two problems with gas tax.
1) It hasn't been raised since 1992 (?).
2) Cars now a days are much better mpg or hybreds.
The money the government brings in for taking care of the roads/highways/etc... is only 1/3 of what they NEED.
If you want to raise the gas tax, that will only help the immediate need, but you'd have to raise it to $5 a gallon (like they do in Europe).
The other problem is, the more electric cars become popular, the less that income becomes. So basically the new electric cars coming out are paying $0 towards the roads they use. BIG PROBLEM.
Only solution is a VTM. Sounds 'big brother'. But they are only allowed to track what roads you travel and when. This information is critical to determine how much you willl be billled, and what roads are being used the most and need attention. It also will be able to track accidents (ie: onStar type of thing).
Law enforcement will not be allowed to use this information (privacy laws), and the personal data will be erased after a few days.
A high tech solution for which used to be called a "Toll Road". Quite a few of them around the country....those toll roads. Great way to get some revenue for the State coffers.
We already have gas tax. We don't need to be taxed any further. This just opens up a ridiculous precedent for compound taxation.
When the new VMT comes into play, and it will, but not until 2020. The gas tax will be knocked way down, as it won't be needed. So it will even out somewhat.
Toll roads - YES. We need toll roads here as an option only to commuters. There are actually private investors out there willing to pay 100% of the bill and build them from here to Carson and down to SoCal.
The problem is the local Nevada politicians are against toll roads, and say no. Stupid. These are OPTIONAL roads, and CREATE LEGIT JOBS, unlike some of these bull$hit projects the transportation is putting together "just to create jobs" on hwy projects in the middle of no where.
"GemsofNirvana :
I really can't believe that you are going to move here to Las Vegas. I'm tellin ya, it's a mistake! your teens are going to hate it here, and you will find it is NOT a user friendly place to live. Take my advice and stay where you are at least until your kids are grown up and out"
I agree with Environprotector. If you insist on moving to Vegas with teenagers, make sure you enroll them in private schools. The public schools in Vegas are questionable. But if you live in Milwaukee - you may be used to metal detectors in schools, police presence on school grounds, once in a while a gangbanger shooting - the usual high school activities. Make sure you MEET in person every kid your children become friends with.
Oh, and be prepared for your kids to be mad at you for years for taking them away from their friends and all that is familiar to them and moving thousands of miles away. But they may forgive you sooner once they can go swimming starting in April!
Det_Munch - There are lots of great things about Vegas, GemsofNirvana, move here. You'll get great housing prices, low cost of living, no crazy rush hour traffic (like LA/Chicago/etc...).
There are tons of things for kids of all ages here. Sports, hiking, lake mead, off roading/dirt biking/etc...
Just move to areas like Summerlin, Anthem, or Seven Hills and you'll be set.
Ignore the fear mongers.
To Siromega,
This is interesting. Have you seen this? It's about taxes.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...
Toll Roads suck.
Why not just tax the snot out of big rigs? They do most of the damage, and the costs end up getting spread to everyone in society anyway, without all the tracking BS.
"Toll roads - YES. We need toll roads here as an option only to commuters. There are actually private investors out there willing to pay 100% of the bill and build them from here to Carson and down to SoCal"
sevenhills
Finally someone who understands the concept.
Put up a toll booth at the NV/Cali border. Put one up on I15 going to and from Utah. Put a couple from Vegas to Carson City. And all you need is the toll to be 75cents per car or even a $1.00, that's all.
And as an added bonus: on some toll roads across the country - big rig trucks pay PER AXLE! How many big trucks are driving to and from Nevada all the time?
No need for any kind of tracking device on any vehicles.
This is unacceptable on so many levels. No one is going to put anything on my car that tracks when and where I drive.
"There are lots of great things about Vegas, GemsofNirvana, move here. You'll get great housing prices, low cost of living, no crazy rush hour traffic (like LA/Chicago/etc...)."
Sevenhills
I know there is a lot to in Vegas for the kids, and so many other things good about living there, but being a teen is hard enough and if the kids are not totally on board with this move, it can pretty tough for Mom and Dad. And the kids especially. Gems didn't say how old they are and if they are, let's say, sophmores in high school - That can be traumatizing for the kid to be taken away in the middle of the high school years to move away from their friends. My parents did that to me way back in the day and it took years for me to forgive them and we only moved from the City to the suburbs! I forgave them when, after graduation, I got a full time job and got an apartment back in the city with a room mate!!
And I hope Gems' wife's job is totally, 200% secure, too. Hate for them to make the move, and things fall apart. But if it is a job related transfer, it sounds pretty good.
vc, you wont have a choice. You'll most likely be fined, which will be more. your choice.
det_munch - I don't understand the politicians in this state. They make decisions without consulting the people that live here. (no toll roads, monorail, etc...). The problem with the politics from what I've seen is everyone here is ANCIENT and should be retired. Need some new young blood to stop all that crazy decisions/spending of yesteryears.
goingbust. Can't overtax the rigs because they can simply go through Arizona and utah instead of Nevada. Besides, that is changing rapidly as most rigs come from long beach, which is in the process of moving majority to rail out here.
"Gasca said her group would support an annual odometer reading, but transportation policy experts note that would not tax out-of-state drivers for their use of Nevada's roads."
nor will a black box tax out of state drivers unless ndot plans on installing black boxes on every vehicle in the country that plans on driving to nevada. a toll road would make so much more sense and be much cheaper to implement and maintain. OR, ndot could just increase the fuel tax to keep pace with more efficient cars. i'm pretty sure that would also be much cheaper than building and installing a black box on every car in the state. seriously, who thought this was a good idea?
Maybe if NV had even a poor public transportation system I'd consider it, but no way taxing for driving. Ridiculous. Good bye taxi companies.
cbarrious. A large group of economists and other professionals at the federal level made the decision of the VMT. All new cars will have it automatically, and they'll think of a creative way to get them into old cars.
It's much cheaper. Can you imagine the amoutn of people/paperwork/time wasted in checking your odemetor. As if DMV isn't busy enough.
Fuel tax is only short term. By 2020 most new cars will be electic. Making fuel tax useless. How do electic cars pay for the roads?
Nevada has a horrible public transportation system. One way I've seen in many other countries/cities is similiar to the monorail, however it goes everywhere, airport to all major communities. It works very well, and pays for itself. The monorail here is a complete disaster because of its limited coverage. If it went to airport -> summerlin -> green valley -> northwest, people would be jumping all over it. No traffic, instant fast transportation.
Just my thoughts. :)
The photo of I-15 tells a story. Look at all the empty billboards, some indication of how business is in Las Vegas.
Another Reality challenged comment brought to you by Stevem.
We dont need this "stuff" anyway.
Yea look at the back side of all dem billboards that 'll tell U the story LOL
Gosh conservatives are so paranoid about life in general. Anytime you have your cell phone on, "big brother" is watching. Anytime you use your credit card, "big brother" is watching. Anytime you post on your blog that venerates Palin and Beck, "big brother" is watching. Short of it is that we all leave such a distinct digital footprint and yet you engage in these activities freely without such paranoia.
You want the "freedom" to move about and such but roads need to be repaired and built - c'mon, let's hear your solution besides your politics of no.
Some of the details of this proposal would have to be worked out. This is an idea.
Ironically the ACLU is in the right's camp. Didn't hear any ACLU bashing this time. Funny.
Hybrid drivers must feel like a bunch of suckers after reading this! Going green to better the planet and avoid the high cost of gas only to find out you'll be charged for actually driving your cars anyways.
Another scintillating post from Henderson. Not. What's wrong with using less of what Venezuela and Saudi Arabia and other hostile countries to the US produce?? What's wrong with actually simply consuming what you really need?? Of course you'll be the first to complain when you're presumably gas-guzzling vehicle is needing $5.00/gal gas.
Resident Evil Las Vegas picture is what comes to mind for Las Vegas and Nevada http://www.fxguide.com/qt/wp-content/upl...
Hey Axiom,
You don't know the first thing about me. What a D-bag comment. Try avoiding subjects you're not familiar with - like my personal thoughts on the price of gas or the miles per gallen my car gets.
So stupid!
The funny part is that I know people that went with a hybrid ONLY for the savings. They hate their stupid prius, regret buying it, and now I'm forwarding them this so they can be even more pissed. It's funny. I laugh.
Residents pay already through gas tax. The heavier vehicles use more gas, cause more damage, and pay more taxes.
It seems a real problem is when cars and trucks can fill up in Utah or California and make it through the state without buying any gas, therefore, they pay no taxes. There wasn't info for a tax for this situation.
@Money_Is_Debt:
No but I'm sure its a bunch of conservative unreality garbage they wallow in nowadays.
I support Dems (usually), but I really wish the right was dominated by a more thoughtful, intelligent kind of person. Rush, Beck, et. al. have little basis in fact.
Conspiracy theories are the sign of a lazy mind.
"The funny part is that I know people that went with a hybrid ONLY for the savings."
And when the world economy recovers and gas prices go back to $3.30/gal in the winter and $4.50/gal in the summer months, they'll be happy again. It wont take long.
BTW - Nissan announced the price for their all electric 100 mile LEAF EV - $26K after tax credits. It makes a great commuter car for two+ car households.
you people are mostly way off especially when it comes to nevada.
1. tolls are great mainly along tourist corridors. this will take care of the all the people that travel in from out of state, and also raise revenue from the people that live here too. like stated above, tolls are a great way to generate revenue.
2. vmt is not needed at all in nevada. why? WE PAY SOME OF THE HIGHEST REGISTRATION FEES IN THE COUNTRY!!! I PAY 174 DOLLARS A YEAR FOR A 22 YEAR OLD CAR THAT I BOUGHT FOR HALF OF THAT PRICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I PAY 315 FOR ANOTHER VEHICLE, AND 177 FOR ANOTHER. 33 DOLLARS IS THE ACTUAL REG FEE AND THE REST IS ALL FRIGGIN TAXES!!!!! where does that money go?? lets not forget title fees, DL fees, traffic citations, smog check requirements, etc.
3. you are saying people that own alternative fuel vehicles are not paying there share? thats right. those smug people that think they are better because they have a hybrid should pay out the rear end to no end because of that attitude they hold, but realistically, how about a little calculation here. lets say the average vehicle in the class they are buying is 23mpg. now they get 33mpg. thats 10mpg.
at 15k mi a year thats 652 gallons a year at 23mpg, and at 33mpg thats 454 gallons a year. a difference of about 200 gallons. so the average gas tax revenue lost to you driving a hybrid that gets an average mpg rating of 10mpg better is equal to 46 dollars.
charge the smug hybrid owner another 46 dollars a year to have that hybrid.
an SUV that gets 15mpg as a gas only, buy a hybrid and get 18mpg. at 15k mi a year you charge accordingly. basically, charge them the average gas tax and tack it onto their registration.
ill admit, i own 2 gas guzzlers and one midsize. the midsize is a spare car i got as a project, and ended up being a temporary replacement for my SUV that ended up in a body shop, and then our second vehicle. all are large for safety reasons and needed room. i pay my share of gas taxes. hybrids dont. so if they wanna be smug about owning that hybrid i say make them pay...its easy!
if a car gets 15mpg, and the hydrogen uses no gas, well charge a tax at the filling stations for those cars, and then do the same comparison. 15mpgs is what the car would get on gas. at 15000mi a year thats 1000 gallons a year. at 23 cents a gallon tax is 230 bucks lost in revenue for roads. guess what, you want that hydrogen bmw, you can afford another 230 bucks a year on top of that reg fee anyway. its money you would have been paying anyway.
Henderson-great point. In northern california they told people if they reduce their water use they will get a rebate. Rebate came and your reduce use was your new ceiling, if you went over you paid extra. (of course they didnt share that with people prior. A friend installed solar panels and is now hit with a grid connection fee of $75 a month for the right to use less of PG & Es power. No good deed goes unpunished.
Um right Henderson because your comment about how hybrid car drivers isn't such a "d-bag" comment that makes a blanket statement as well. Touche! You can make comments "you know nothing about" yet someone else does and you get your panties up in a wad.
But answer my question why someone shouldn't feel good about getting a hybrid. I get the sense there's a lot of hostility here from right-wing posters toward hybrid drivers. They call them smug. They call them names.
Why?? Perhaps there reason for using a car that's more fuel-efficient is that they actually have a social conscious and aren't these selfish, self-centered monster truck drivers and gigantic SUV drivers you see all over Las Vegas.
Tell me? What's wrong with that? Because WE have a direct impact on foreign affairs by the purchases we make. We complain about China taking over but love to buy at Walmart. We complain about Saudi Arabia but like our fuel inefficient cars while they finance 9/11. We complain about Mexico and their drug cartels but we Americans are the biggest consumers of pot and coke.
Answer me that? C'mon, let's discuss issues and avoid the name calling. We're even 1-1, so let's squash that.
The state can take that "BLACK BOX" and shove it up there a*s.
Beware of tolls. Unless the system is completely automated, we will create more public loafers like they have back East. Union loafers making 60G a year reaching their hand out, and making change. Pocketing some of money, too. Plus a nice pension down the road.
And putting tolls at Primm will further reduce the influx of gamblers from Cali. We don't need that. I guess this new system of charging for actual usage of roads is the best solution.
Hurts to say that, however.
This is totally not necessary. If you want to tax a driver based on the amount of miles he drives, and the amount of damage his vehicle does to stste roads, then just go to any gas station at look at the sticker on the pump which says "Tax per Gallon". We are allready paying based on the amount of damage we do to the roads.
The two words that come immediately to mind are "Political" and "Suicide". Get on your political types out there, and let them know if they don't squash this immediately, they'll be run out of office (and the state) on a rail.
Better yet, I think that Nevada can get constitutional amendments by referendum alone. Someone should fire up the paperwork to permanently ban this kind of tracking.
axiom,
It sounds like you're the biggest consumer of pot and coke at the moment. Quit bugging me, I honestly couldn't give a rats ass what you drive. I was merely comenting that I find it comical that people who try to conserve and do what they think is the right thing get punished as soon as the government finds out that green is not cost effective and they're losing money.
You can feel as good as you want just to be saving the planet - is that the validation you're looking for? Some people went with hybrids for other reasons...so please get over it.
Just like Martin said....I know an elderly lady here in Nevada that took the energy rebate for buying energy efficient furnace and ac units, let them put a smart meter on her house (because that's the condition of the rebate) and now she can't understand why she's paying higher power bills. She would be paying less had she not taken the rebate and kept her old meter.
They never explained to her that she would now be charged differently for her electricity.
how many sheep will follow this one without raising a fuss...I mean Bush suspened Habius Corpus not a peep.. you have to be kidding me i guess we already are tracked all day by our cell phones
Henderson- You just happened to be one of the more recent comments dissing hybrid car drivers. All I said was that they shouldn't be mocked or should they feel stupid for their choice, while people that are irresponsible get a free pass in this forum.
For the record, I don't even drive a hybrid car- I drive a luxury import sports sedan that isn't fuel-efficient.
Anyway, forget it. Who cares?
Let's try this on for size. People will pay whatever is necessary to drive - that includes the cost of a driver's license. And the cost of insurance. Young people save up for that money all the time. I say make the INITIAL cost of a driver's license somewhere in the $100-$200 neighborhood. Youth will pay it - hell, it's the cost of an ipod that they have no problem paying for or a couple of monthly cell phone bills.
It really is unfair to ask car companies to make cars that are more fuel efficient that benefits everyone and then the state bitches that the technological and fuel progress means jack crap to the consumer at the end of the day.
And I love the way that $260K was spent "in secret." I'm sure they have their budgets to do what they wish, but maybe they should have budgeted the legal defenses that they no doubt knew would be upon them - how will the state defend this? The AG's office? They got the budget for it? What they should have done was talk about this BEFORE they spent the money - you know - like someone putting a black box on their bank accounts so the tax payers could see where their money goes.
Personally,
I don't believe I am irresponsible because I don't drive a hybrid.
I'd rather see red-light cameras issuing tickets to dangerous drivers.
At least it will generate a ton of revenue while improving safety in the valley - something we desperately need. This way only offenders will be fined.
Thanks Dex, I have been missing you since I cancelled my Showtime subscription. Your theory makes sense. Take the campaign money from the black box company to promote its idea. Use it as a sword of Damocles to threaten to raise taxes and then once you get what you want drop the other guy like a bad habit. Brilliant!
And for the rest of you that are trying to rationalize away that this is the actual beneficial effect of excessive taxing of something remember, if you tax it high enough the free market will move to another platform. The conclusion to be taken away here....and listen kids because like the Big Fig Newton says...This is the tricky part....YOU ARE PENALIZED FOR SAVING GAS AND BEING A GOOD CITIZEN WITH NEW AND MORE INTRUSIVE TAXES.
And for the morons clamoring for the ticket cameras: Those folks running the lights are the ones without insurance and a job. How do you think they're going to pay the ticket? So the ticket goes to warrant and now we the taxpayers are supporting clerks, judges, constables all receiving nice union pay packages, pensions and benefits with no accounts receivable to pay for them. When all anybody has to realize is that hey, if we don't speed and run red lights we don't need all these judicial people sucking our tax dollars?
So the moral of the story is, as told by our friends Cloward & Piven, do nothing, create nothing, sit at home and live off the government and just like politicians show up to the polls every so often to vote yourself another raise.
And that folks in a nutshell is the process which brought us the TEA party.
"And for the morons clamoring for the ticket cameras: Those folks running the lights are the ones without insurance and a job."
I can emphatically state that this is a complete and utter falsehood - a moronic statement to suggest that only jobless uninsured people run red lights. So stupid.
Have you been to the courthouse lately Henderson? I think you'd change your mind after an afternoon waiting in the "ticket amnesty" line.
Taxes should not just be based on the number of miles but also on the weight of the vehicle. Vehicles that weight more put more wear and tear on the roads.
I do not support a black box, so I could be tracked wherever I go. And I don't think the mileage would be a good measure as I shouldn't be taxed on miles I drive in CA, UT, and AZ.
bbtbrain,
Actually no...I try to stay away.
Let me make sure I understand this.....you are scanning the amnesty line at the courthouse wondering where all of the employed, insured people are that pay their tickets?
Are you seriously that dumb?
Most people pay their flippin tickets, and are not in the amnesty line at the courthouse!
What are you thinking?
You all have tracking devices in your cell phones. Any time it is on, you can be tracked.
You cars' computer records how fast you are driving, how many times you hit the brakes, etc. That is how the feds and Toyota tested the car in San Diego that was to not been able to stop.
Almost all rentals have gps units in them so they will know if you leave the state, or the country, or if you speed.
hybrid cars, E85 cars are all jokes. E85 costs 15% less and gets 15-25% less mpg
from what ive read, that prius or any other battery hybrid equates to the same amount of pollution over its average life cycle, its production, and recycling that my SUV puts out over the same amount of time and mileage.
in reality, i think the govt is basically trying to scare people into buying new cars.
and since when did modern cars today get better gas mileage??? they are no better than they were 10 years ago.
a geo metro 3cyl car made in the 90's got 40mpg. i had a 1996 ford taurus that got better mpg (23 around town, 32-33 on freeway) than a 2009 impala with a comparable motor and more "technology" these tiny roller skates they build today are no better than they were 10-20 years ago, they sure dont look better, and yea they have cooler toys inside but thats about it.
so people are not saving gas with these newer cars, there are not enough hybrids in nevada to put a such a large dent into our road budget...PEOPLE ARE BROKE AND NOT DRIVING AS MUCH!!! PEOPLE ARE MOVING OUT OF TOWN, THEREFORE LESS DRIVERS!!! lets get real people...you wanna make up some funds here charge another 2 bucks for your DL renewals and make it every 2 years instead 4+ that it is now. impose a 1dollar a month fee for car insurance or something that goes to state roads. do my registration idea above to make up for the lost miles a hybrid car will take away. i doubt there are more than 25000 hybrids in nevada. 1.15million can be recovered by billing hybrid reg's more money based on 25k vehicles and 46 dollars more a year. 6 billion dollar shortfall projected 6 years from now!!! please. cars today dont get better gas milage compared to 10 years ago. people are CUTTING DOWN!! 3 BUCKS A DAMN GALLON WILL MAKE JUST ABOUT ANYONE NOT DRIVE AS MUCH!
heres a perfect example. i have to go to 3 banks. i could go today to 2 of them and do the other next day, or if i need money today, i can do an instant transfer of funds from savings to checking from home and wait one more day to deposit funds, and once deposited transfer the same amount back into savings. it cost me nothing for gas on one day. so the 1 gallon of gas i saved by doing that worked perfectly.
wait...maybe ill do this! wait one more day and go food shopping and drop off that one thing to the post office, then to bank 3, and go to bank 1 and 2 on the way to food shopping since all of them are pretty much in a nice circle. i still used the same amount of gas! so instead of doing this all over 3 days at say 15 miles each day, i did it all in one day for say 20 miles total. half the miles, one trip. i saved ~1.5 gallons of gas.
a friend of mine came to my house last night, i said grab me some milk on your way. he was going to a store anyway for some other things before stopping by...saved me a trip to the store 2 miles away.
bottom line, people are consolidating. there have been days i had stuff to do near my signifigant others job, so i dropped her off at her job and picked her up when we were done. one car, one trip basically. so instead of 2 cars going 10 miles each way, its only 1. half the gas used.
people will find ways to manipulate the system. find ways to drive less to save money. by doing peak and off peak times you are truly screwing over the working man/woman. so instead, lets find ways to bill the "responsible" parties involved.
maybe just maybe raise the lousy gas tax a few cents, and charge hybrid owners a difference in teh lost revenue. how many people just pass thru nevada? charge people at the state lines to cut thru maybe. a flat toll rate that covers one end of the state to another. people that drive into town to stay account for how many drivers on a given friday to sunday?
oh and lemme guess, the per gallon tax will still remain along with the per mile gps tax too right?
Dude are you serious? Every six months or so they put this big article in the paper about how we have a backlog of unpaid tickets and they're all going to warrant and if you pay them before XXXX you won't have to pay the warrant fee. I have occasion to be around the courthouse and the line snakes out of the building, around the corner and would go into the street if they let it. I guess if you DON'T want to see it you won't.
Amanda Finnegan, Las Vegas Sun, 11/14/08
Presently, there are 200,000 outstanding traffic tickets in Las Vegas, totaling $1.35 million, Smith said.
"We're starting to thinking outside of the box. There had been some discussion of getting our marshals geared up to issue warrants but it wouldn't be cost affective," Smith said.
Look at my thumb, gee your dumb. 200,000 tickets at one per person is about 10% of our STATE population with overdue tickets. The only reason they don't put you all in jail is because it COSTS THEM TOO MUCH. These aren't my words.
Okay...
Black Box scenario 2015:
All insurance information, personal information that is currently available thru DMV (name, address, phone #, age, height, weight, color of your eyes, race) motor vehicle record, criminal record (if one has one), and in the future possibly credit reports, liens of any kind (including alimony, child support and tax), warrants (if any), driving habits (including braking and speed), possibly destinations, etc. will all be able to obtained by a police officer with a handheld scanner who will be able to read the bar code on your mandated state ID sticker on any traffic stop.
The black box will be able to both send and receive communications, as well as to be able to give your GPS position, driving history and personal information to people with access from remote locations whether authorized or not.
The technology is available now. Maybe you don't care, but the fact is a single entry in this arena (by insurance or government or anyone else) will open the floodgates.
It is only inevitable if we allow it to happen but if we do it will be more than what we initially bargained for... Maybe that doesn't bother the majority of you, but I for one, resent the continued intrusion in my life by anyone.
Some may say that they don't care because they "have nothing to hide" and to that I say you're probably right and you may not, but to me, that is not the point. The point is that I believe that we as Americans have a right to privacy and intrusion and observation from government and government regulated entities including insurance companies.
Posted on KXNT website on 4/1/09
North Las Vegas Ticket Amnesty Starts Today
As of today, North Las Vegas is allowing those with outstanding warrants to pay fines without facing arrest or late charges. The city's ticket amnesty program is taking place the entire month of April, for those who neglected traffic fines or were no-shows in court. The North Las Vegas Municipal Court has approximately $40 million in unpaid fines. City officials hope the moratorium will help people who otherwise would not pay. Those who take advantage of the amnesty can also set up payment plans.
FORTY MILLION IN UNPAID FINES!!! Tell me Henderson that all these people are fine, upstanding hard-working law-abiding Americans.
bbtrain: if they were smart, when you went to renew your license, your registration, etc you cant until you pay your fines. have a couple of marshals posted at the dmv that wont allow you to leave unless you pay your fines or go to jail.
thats a rough idea, but im sure if they put $260k of thought into it they may get a good system going.
muddapucker - The new VMT system will not be keeping your personal information after you are billed. It only keeps where you travelled, what time of day, etc... all private information is not stored permentaly. More so, the law enforcement agencies cannot access this for their use (privacy violations).
There is no arguement about tracking here. You are always tracked by the feds through your cell phone, onstar, etc...
VMT will charge you monthly for the amount of travel you do, what type of vehicle you drive, and what time of day. So driving in off-peak times will be cheaper, for example.
It will keep track of conjestions on roads, so ndot knows where to expand/fix. It also will keep track of accidents, so ndot knows where to put more safety features.
The gas tax will be removed (so we're told) when this comes into play.
I own an earlier model Dodge van that is used very little, Maybe 2K to 2.5K a year at best(Recreation). In 2 years my registration more than doubled,Most of it tax. This year I was informed the vehicle was worth way more than I thought. The state determined that the van is now valued at a third of the original cost and taxed accordingly. WOW, I never thought in this economy a 20 plus year old vehicle would jump up in value just like that! Now they want to tax my mileage, Am I not paying a usage tax already? Basic gov.tax, Supplemental gov. service tax! Where the hell does all THIS money go? The government is out of control and is getting worse by the minute. What's next, Taxing you for how many people they assume are in your vehicle at any time or where they THINK you might travel. Just wait, This is only the beginning of what's on the way.
Spock, currently the federal government gets 1/3 of the money they need for maintaining the roads/highways/rail/etc...
How do you figure we get the rest? Gas tax will be non-existant in 10 years because of all the electric cars.
Now they have to take that 2/3 from other funds, like education, borrowing, etc.. etc...
Back @ Siromega:
How can you be sure what it is if you have not watched it? Are you clairvoyant?
It is neither right or left and it is not a conspiracy. It discusses documented facts. One who researches and examines is never a lazy mind. One who does not research, is.
spock, my 22 year old bmw cost me 174 dollars to register. the car cost me 228.50 to put in my name and register total with smog. i paid $212 for the car. sad huh? its based off of the msrp when new, not what its worth today.
its bullspit.
bbtbrain,
How do I explain this...your reading comprehension sucks.
Saying that the only people that run red lights are uninsured, unemployed rejects just because that's what you see in the "amnesty" line at the courthouse is very ignorant.
Most people pay their tickets and do not stand in line, or even go to the courthouse to pay their fines.
Even with amnesty they still have to pay their tickets. They might get reduced, late fees and warrants might get waived but they will still have to pay.
The amnesty line does not represent all red light runners in Clark County. It is a small fraction.
@ sevenhills...
You know, I am aware of that. Just like when I can tell how long one of my employees has left a company van stopped at a single location and whether or not the engine was idling or off. The difference is they are my vans, my business and my employees.
I understand the technology. Its the application by government that worries me.
I had a young man that worked for me that got in a messy divorce (not altogether his fault, IMHO). His credit score went down and his insurance rates went up. They call it information sharing.
What can I say? If you know my name, you can get a map to my front door off the internet. You can see the house on google earth. You want to know all about me, order a report from Intellus (sp?) off the Internet... Its all available at a price.
I just hate to feed the growing monster that is gobbling up individual privacy any faster than it will gain it on its own. I guess I don't want to go down without a fight, figuratively speaking, of course! I feel compelled to explain that because some idiot would take that as a threat of some kind which it is not. It refers only to political view and I how I will vote on the subject.
But I acknowledge momentum is against me. No question its a losing battle... I seem to be losing most of them these days...
sevenhills, you have incredible faith in government to do only what they say they will.
So far, I have seen only one comment that touched on the real issue here. Consider this quote from the article:
"We'd offer a range of alternatives -- from odometer readings all the way up to full GPS units that could capture the time of day, the route you are on, the area you are in," said Scott Rawlins, the Transportation Department's deputy director. "At the end of the day, it will be the policymakers who ultimately determine what's right for the public."
It should NOT be up to policymakers, but instead up to the PUBLIC to decide what we feel is best for us. This story is truly horrifying from a number of veiwpoints.
"Even with amnesty they still have to pay their tickets. They might get reduced, late fees and warrants might get waived but they will still have to pay"
This is correct. When I was in Vegas at the firm I worked at, I was in charge of the traffic tickets that everyone got - employees, clients, family members, etc. An "Attorney Session" was requested on all the tickets at the proper court and then the appearance date then changed to a date different from on the citation, usually a month or so after the original court date. Even with attorney representation, you STILL HAVE TO PAY THE TICKET but it is usually lower then the normal fines. There are NO FREE PASSES just because you have an attorney. I also know if you miss your original court date that is written on the citation, a warrant is issued and believe me - they do follow up on this. Not 100% but there is follow up. If you happen to get stopped and it comes up you have an outstanding ticket and a warrant has been issued - you're going to jail.
PS You will be notified when that warrant has been issued.
muddapucker....
i never understood why your credit score has anything to do with insurance rates.
my driving record is clean, and i have one accident that was not my fault (i got rear ended when sitting at a red light and some dumb texting teenager rear ended me at full speed). my credit went downhill after 9-11 and years later i gave up and filed for bankruptcy, so my credit hasnt been good for years and i got penalized for it with insurance companies. i may as well had gotten a few tickets and enjoyed myself speeding at high speeds on the freeway. just because someone has some bad credit does not mean they drive poorly. i know someone that has been unemployed and their credit suffered from it, and has not had a chargable accident in their entire life, and for their entire life has been in 1 accidents. one by a drunk driver that paid the claim anyway. over the course of 35+ years of driving....credit raised that persons insurance rates....and this person drives AT the speed limit all the time, stays off of common problem roads (like the 15) to lessen their chance of being in an accident. very cautious driver, and had i think 1 traffic violation in all the years of their driving.
the government needs to stay out of our affairs and control large corporate america more. but wait, insurance companies pay these morons thousands and thousands every year so they can keep up their immoral practices.
Are you scarred yet?
I understand the msrp, What I don't understand is how the 33% after 22 years is calculated. I would love to see ANY insurance company pay me that if it was totaled out. Highly illogical! As far as where my money goes, I just don't see a difference anywhere to justify a 100% increase in 2 years.
If the government could be trusted to use data correctly then VMT would be the correct answer. BUT ...
That simply isn't the case. Even if we had a Constitutional requirement that no data could be shared between agencies without specific voter approval we could never feel safe from it. Look at the healthcare reform bill, there is ammendment in there specificly prohibiting the sharing of any data collected by hospitals or other medical care providers about gun and ammunition ownership. WHY THE HELL IS THAT DATA NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?
The lesson to be learned from the healthcare bill is that ANY data will be shared unless someone speaks up in time to put a law in place to (hopefully) prevent it. That is the exact opposite of how it should be.
Sigtwenty
"i never understood why your credit score has anything to do with insurance rates."
Insurance companines feel that if you are not responsible with your credit why would you be responsible behind the wheel. It's not just your credit score that can affect your insurance rates, buckle up for this one. Calling AAA for roadside assistance has the same effect, that includes being locked out, needing gas, changing a tire etc,. It's all tracked and shared just like this intrusion would be too.
$50 Billion in gold was pulled from the ground last year, and NV mining pays less than 3% in some cases, yet we are going to be taxed for driving! Get some priorities straight people!
Don't confuse scared with pissed!
I assumed being pissed was a given. Why would anyone think this is o.k. for any reason?
wizard...I can't quit laughing! PRICELESS!
MG- They might have a point if they didnt have driving records and insurance claims records they could use to determine the level of risk someone is.
It really is another way to wring more money out of people.
They really use it to determine how long they will keep getting checks from you and likelihood of renewal.
Toll roads are the politicians way of kicking the can down the road. They are expensive too. Look at Illinois. Stop and pay at a booth manned by a paid employee 24/7. If you have an IPASS transponder, which allows you to bypass the booth, you are billed for your driving plus buying the IPASS. Many more employees and energy sucking computers needed to bill and process the payments. The toll road has a bunch of managers and their gophers along with their cushy offices that cost money. I haven't been to Chicago since IPASS went big, but it used to be that rush hour created some of the worlds biggest parking lots at the toll booths.
It will be the same with the tracking device. Pay for the device and the overhead of mutitudes of employees, executives, lobbyists, offices and computers. Just like Wall Street. Unproductive labor misallocation money wasting schemes to syphon more dollars out of our pockets. Toll roads and tracking devices are an expensive way out for gutless politicians too lazy to do the job right.
Although $260k wouldn't buy much asphault, it's ridiculous government expenditures like this that have helped bring us here.
Nevada has never really been a low-tax state, we just don't have to file a return.
I'm in agreement that toll roads would help-put them on the borders in the lanes leaving NV. (The state will make a killing on the stampede out of here as life gets more and more intolerable.) At least that way everyone using the roads and contributing to wear and tear would be paying for it, including aliens illegal and otherwise, unwed mothers, government officials...
I guess I'll walk to the bank and the post office and wait for the foot tax to kick in.
Quote: Scott Rawlins, the Transportation Department's deputy director. "At the end of the day, it will be the policymakers who ultimately determine what's right for the public."
I thought the "public" determined "government policy"???? Must be a new form of dictatorship in Nevada,!
By the government, for the government, with liberty and justice for naught.
Where is Governor Gibbons now? Whats up with him? Does it just have to be a democrat thing for him to oppose it?
Henderson: How can you say that when you've never been there by your own admission (I try to avoid the courthouse)? I provide statistics to support my position and you just tell me I'm wrong. What do you think those people were doing to get those tickets? Please provide something substantive to support your contention or just admit you're blowing hot air.
bbtbrain -
Seriously, what's wrong with you?
THE WORKING, INSURED PEOPLE THAT PAY THEIR TRAFFIC CITATIONS ARE NOT STANDING IN THE AMNESTY LINE AT THE COURTHOUSE WITH YOU!!!!!!
Dude, of course you're only going to find the unemployed, uninsured drivers in the amnesty line. EVERYONE ELSE PAYS THEIR TICKETS ONLINE OR THROUGH THE MAIL.
Let's take it from the top...
You said that only unemployed, uninsured people get speeding tickets, and you base this knowledge on what you see in the amnesty line at the courthouse.
THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE THAT GET SPEEDING TICKETS THAT DON'T STAND IN THE AMNESTY LINE AT THE COURTHOUSE!
I've had tickets, I've NEVER stood in an amnesty line in my life. Pull your head out.
Every car takes up so much room on the road.
Charging per mile seems fair.
High mileage cars pay very little for transportation while large trucks, vans, and commercial rigs pay substantially more.
Prius Example:
10,000 miles / 48 mpg = 208 gallons x .60 per gallon tax = $125 per year
Large truck with big tires example:
10,000 miles / 10 mpg = 1000 gallons x.60 per gallon tax = $600 per year
Ten years in the Prius = $1,250 dollars fuel taxes paid
Ten years in the Truck = $6,000 dollars fuel taxes paid
If I were a redneck with a huge gas guzzling truck, I would like for the geek in the Prius to help pay for the road we are both driving on.
This is what the evil government is trying to do- tax per mile so every vehicle shares the cost of infrastructure.
I think it has some merit.
If you raise the gas tax .10 cents per gallon it will kill the truck but the Prius owner laughs all the way to the bank.
Replace the gasoline tax? It's one of the more effective tools for pushing drivers towards alternative energy cars. No way.
I'm proposing a new state tax on Nevada State Public Employees of 25% of their salaries and 90% of anything over $250K. After looking at these salaries:
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/al...
Nevada will have all the money it needs to do whatever it wants..
"We'd offer a range of alternatives -- from odometer readings all the way up to full GPS units that could capture the time of day, the route you are on, the area you are in," said Scott Rawlins, the Transportation Department's deputy director. "At the end of the day, it will be the policymakers who ultimately determine what's right for the public."
And it's up to the Public who determines who the policymakers will be....