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Rookie Clark County firefighters pull hoses as part of their training in this 2008 file photo. With Fire Department overtime being trimmed, a wave of retirements is expected, but county officials they say they have plenty of would-be rookies waiting to fill their spots.
Friday, June 25, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Compensation package
Clark County firefighter compensation averages $180,000, once overtime, and benefits such as “remote pay” for those working in Laughlin and the county’s retirement contributions are taken into account. With growing support from the Clark County Commission, the Fire Department is making sweeping changes expected to slice last year’s $15 million overtime budget by $5.5 million.
Steve Sisolak
Sun archives
- Rory Reid says firefighters union resorting to ‘scare tactic’ with ad (6-15-2010)
- County considers plan to privatize airport firefighting force (6-11-2010)
- New plan to curtail Clark County firefighter overtime (6-5-2010)
- Staffing shuffle would cut county Fire Department overtime (5-20-2010)
- Las Vegas, Clark County collaborate to limit firefighter overtime (4-27-2010)
- Fire union resists move to increase its ranks, reduce overtime costs (4-16-2010)
- Has fire union support become a campaign curse? (4-15-2010)
- ‘Boot drive’ OT for individual firefighters is unknown (4-4-2010)
- Practice of on-duty firefighters raising money for charity questioned (3-31-2010)
- Fire union goal: Silence Sisolak (3-19-2010)
- Las Vegas firefighters burn up more sick time than other city employees (3-14-2010)
- Clark County firefighters profit from sick leave policy (3-7-2010)
- ‘Longevity pay’ costs millions in county (12-10-2009)
- Firefighters feeling budget backlash (5-28-2009)
- County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
With Clark County firefighters on notice that they won’t be getting as much overtime pay as they’ve enjoyed in the past, a flood of retirements is expected.
“They’ve reached their maximum salary limits, so retirement is looking more attractive to them than continuing to work without all that extra overtime pay,” Commissioner Steve Sisolak says.
Plenty of would-be rookies are waiting to fill out the ranks, though. The County Fire Department started accepting applications Tuesday for recruits — and reached its limit of 1,000 that day.
The department now has only 23 openings. Sisolak says its leaders are certain that at least 100 employees will leave in the next year, but they expect the final number will be far more than 100 because of changes to overtime pay.
Although the job can be hazardous, it can also be lucrative — even in retirement. County Fire Department retirees are paid up to 75 percent of the average of their three highest years of earnings.
County firefighter compensation averages $180,000, once overtime, benefits such as “remote pay” for those working in Laughlin and the county’s retirement contributions are taken into account. In the past year, Sisolak has forced the county to consider ways to lower that total. Bolstered by growing support from most of the County Commission, the Fire Department is making sweeping changes expected to slice last year’s $15 million overtime budget by $5.5 million.
The department is shuttering heavy rescue and hazardous materials units and letting Las Vegas Fire & Rescue take on those duties through a mutual-aid agreement. The county department also is pulling some fire personnel out of office jobs. The freed-up firefighters are being put into a rotation of substitutes, ready to fill in at straight time for absent firefighters. By doing so, the department no longer has to pay substitutes at the overtime rate.
Another expected change would cut even more into those lucrative overtime payments.
Discussions with Arizona’s Bullhead City Fire Department are focusing on an understanding that would let Clark County pull one firetruck out of service in Laughlin, across the Colorado River. That would free up another 12 firefighters to become part of the substitute rotation. Bullhead City and the county have a mutual-aid agreement. Sisolak, who represents Laughlin, says discussions are to ensure both governments are on board with pulling the truck.
Even if the agreement doesn’t work, state Senate candidate Joe Hardy has said if elected he would reintroduce a bill next year to incorporate Laughlin. That would leave fire staffing responsibilities to the newly incorporated town and move all 45 county fire personnel out of Laughlin and, presumably, into the substitution rotation.
That’s a real change in firefighter paychecks. How that plays into retirement decisions is tied to how retirement works. Firefighters can retire after 20 years with annual payments equal to 50 percent of the average of their three highest years of earnings. They can make another 2.5 percent after 20 years. Retirement pay for firefighters hired after July 1, 1985, is capped at 75 percent; retirement pay for firefighters hired before that date is not capped.
Sisolak says theoretically that means a county firefighter could make as much in retirement as in annual pay. So he expects the overtime changes will lead to an unusually high number of retirements in the next couple of year, which is part of the reason for the current recruitment effort.
Fire Chief Steve Smith says recruiting now “ensures that we have an applicant pool ready to fill those positions quickly to help us contain overtime costs.”
Ryan Beaman, president of the county firefighters union, could not be reached for comment.
Beyond cutting the overtime budget, the county would likely see Fire Department expenses decline because recruits come in at the low end of the pay scale.
Further, Sisolak says, if county negotiators could manage to cut back on benefits and other compensation during contract talks, the county stands to make substantial changes to the Fire Department’s overall budget.
“It’s good news for the county,” he adds.
Seeing how the private sector has imploded, if I had to do it over again I would have taken the civil servant career path. Nice pensions, great benefits, work extra hours and get paid for it. Throw in the fact that the stock market decline has all but destroyed retirement for the guy who went the private sector route with his career. His 401k in shambles, no job security, now works a job that 3 others previously did and is making less.
Run up your overtime for 3 years before you retire and get a nice fat pension. Who made these rules in the first place...and why? It's a policy that is now destroying city budgets
Comment removed by moderator. Comment was in all caps.
Easy. Take away any post-employment pay and benefits from politicians who voted to put the rest of us in hock to the fire department retirees.
The other real issue is WHY? WHY don't we demand more from our employers? I've worked plenty of jobs and none of them ever gave a darn about the people. It seems that as a nation, a society we need more rights as workers/people.
Any one of us Deserves a retirement that is decent. The Government Let the banking and housing industry rape and pillage for years unregulated. If all those workers in all the industries had been regulated for the worker(a decent wage, a modest and decent retirement), We would have no problem. WE NEED WORKERS RIGHTS FOR ALL WORKING PEOPLE! The private sector should not be allowed to treat people any way they want.
Poor Babies !!! how will they survive on their massive pensions? Let's see...retire after 20 yrs. with 50% of their high three....and you wonder WHY they're PACKING on ALL that overtime???
This is why unions are bad. To make just about the same in "retirement" as you did when actually doing the physical work is ridiculous. This is why CA is dying. A retired union police chief makes more money "retired" than when he was working full time. This comes from the "cost of living" adjustments. While unions were needed at one time I do not think they are needed now. "Sisolak says theoretically that means a county firefighter could make as much in retirement as in annual pay." We will have to continue to pay these high retirement pensions in addition to hiring newbies who will also receive these retirement packages from the union. It is a fierce repetitive circle that needs to be stopped. Time to bring the unions back in to the reality of what is going on today.
how about a wave of firings!!!
as in...
fire all of these community destroyers...
and replace them at half of their current pay...
you know it could be done...
unemployment is over 14%...
you do not need a college degree...
you could replace these community destroyers in a week...
2 weeks tops!!!
i thought overtime didn't count toward retirement...
what a croc of crap...
these community destroyers need to be taught a lesson...
and these commissioners are pathetic...
except for sisolak...
fire tom collins right now...
never vote for tom collins again...
fire chris giuchigliani right now...
never vote for chris giunchigliani again...
Lets not forget the police and UMC they are county employees and they get the same perks....
Rich "heros". That sucks...
To Birdie (AKA Sisolak lover); I bet you are one of the 1000 applicants?. Fortunately for all of us, we have a phycological exam process you have to pass. So your dreams of becoming a firefighter will remain just that..
Your friend $kip$ter $$$$$$...
Robert Conan, you are correct. Private sector should have nice retirements. One thing Nevada has done is set-up all county, city and state employees up with a nice retirement. Private sector pays into social security and public employees pay into PERS, which gets investment and grows over time. Last time I check, the fund to pay public retirement was a healthy 18 billion. I am not endorsing Angle or trying to turn this into a political debate, but she may be on the right track about personalizing social security. I am a younger guy and have had the mindset social security will not be there when I'm 65, so I have been dumping as much as I can into a 401k. Private sector should look at PERS as a model. We would all be able to work 30 years and retire with 75% of our pay, that would be nice.
another reason why public sector pension rules should have been changed long ago.
Only teachers, within the public sector of NV employees earn NO overtime, are not paid for holidays, are NOT paid for the time they and the students are off work, must pay for supplies out of their own pockets, Do not tenure or have a UNION strong enough to protect them or their pay, must work 25 years or be 60 years old to earn a maximum of 65% of their pay and DO NOT GET Medical Insurance when they retire. Firefighters, Police and yes even state workers get PERS and MEDICAL Insurance upon retirement; Not the only college educated ones in the State Public Sector Worker's Pool!
FYI: starting salary With a College Degree is $35,000. Year and top out with TWO (2) Masters Degrees and 15 years longevity is $66,000. A year.
is it just me or does that photo look like that's a "little person"? is it baggy pants or just a low angle forced perspective?
ivegotch
Let's not forget the job of a police officer is dangerous and they actually die in the line of duty. The average lifespan for a male is 73 years. The average lifespan for a retired officer is between 53-66 years. Seems to me they are under compensated.
NVCitizen said (quoted sections):
"Only teachers, within the public sector of NV employees earn NO overtime".
NOT TRUE. There are thousands of exempt staff in the County that do not earn it either.
"are not paid for holidays"
IF you are salary and have off the holiday, YOU ARE PAID! I don't think oyu are hourly. So yes you are paid for holidays.
"are NOT paid for the time they and the students are off work"
WHY SHOULD YOU BE PAID FOR THAT? No one else is in the general County workers.
must work 25 years or be 60 years old to earn a maximum of 65% of their pay
HELLO IT IS THE SAME FOR ALL REGULAR COUNTY WORKERS
"and DO NOT GET Medical Insurance when they retire".
PHASING OUT FOR EVERYONE.
"is it just me or does that photo look like that's a "little person"? is it baggy pants or just a low angle forced perspective?"
-----------------------------
Steve: It is a girl and when you pull a hose it leans you forward, so she is leaning forward. Try it sometime. It is like pulling lead.
Two things jump out at me from reading this article. Some of these firefighters can retire at a compensation level that is greater than their salaries would be? That is absurd
The application filing period opened on Tuesday and the department reached the limit of 1000 the same day? It shows the salaries are far too high and sadly, far too many people are out of work.
@ by bape702
just for your info....topped out firefighters (which takes 8 yrs on the job) only makes $26.00 an hr. and rooks start off at approx $17.00. $20.00 would be a pay increase and spoil your argument....what a shame that would be!
hey tundra...
what's up buddy???
back from hawaii???
Teachers are not salaried, we are paid hourly. I am paid until 2:01 pm, regardless of whether I am finished working with students or not. In simple terms, I work for free several hours each day.
Vegas Resident: the not pd for time off was to clarify that teachers are not paid for summers, winter break and spring break. Teacher's ARE NOT PD for any holiday pay thus even thou salaried employees, no time off with pay for Christmas, Veterans Day, etc. I said state workers and firefighters get pension and medical in retirement and as for county and city workers you too have unions that are supposed to get you benefits. Lastly, in this society we used to recognize and pay for the time and character one uses to get a college degree, YES, only teachers in this whole discourse must have a college degree; thus having spent years and thousands of dollars to qualify or the positions they hold. No doubt you will spin this as me saying teachers are above the rest whcih is not at all what I'm saying. If the educated masses in this country are not rewarded for their effort, then let's close the colleges now because a secretary, a meter reader or a fast food employee wouldn earn as much as a doctor or fighter pilot.
I wonder if Birdiedreamin is really Sisolak the telemarketer. Just because an alleged journalist writes something for a commissioner with an AXE to grind, doesn't mean that it is the TRUTH!!!!
As a taxpayer, why hasn't the county already hired the 26 firefighters to reduce overtime instead of shutting down fire trucks?
Sounds like mismanagement by the chief and Sisolak, not the firefighters.
Another hit piece by shoeman for the telemarketer
Birdieman for sure was one of the 1000 in line for the firefighter application, Sisolak would never do the job, he makes millions, not thousands.
Blah Blah Blah...Same Song, Different Day!
An interesting side note on unions: http://reason.com/blog/2010/06/24/plumbe...
Plumbers unions now fighting waterless urinals...
Birdie...
Community destroyers huh?.....
Something tells me you have never once said that in person to a firefighter.......
Why should you when you can hide behind a computer screen?......
Please tell us what you contribute to this community......
Other than worthless posts about a subject you know nothing about.......
Soon you may have your chance.......
Make sure you get in shape for the physical fitness test.......
Replace the firefighters in two week?.......
Come now birdieboy, you can't expect anyone to listen to you when you make statements like that.....
At least offer realistic solutions......
You want people to think that you are smart and know what you are talking about......
Don't show your ignorance by making silly comments like that.....
Fire commissioners? ........
Again, you do understand it doesn't work like that?.....
I notice you never make any comments about any of the other Unions, even when it is reported they are making high salaries........
You were awful quite when they talked about the Water District salaries.........
You only attack firefighters.........
HHHHMMMMMM........
Kinda makes you wonder........
Why does birdie only attack firefighters??........
Who is birdie really?.............
And what is his real (probably personal) agenda?......
I have to think you could offer firefighters a reasonable salary of $50,000 and there would be more qualified applicants applying for the position than could possibly be placed.
Fire them all, hire them back at market rates.
Jrz,
The average teacher in Clark County makes $53,547 a year. http://www.nevadaeducationnotes.com/2010... If you aren't salaries (in fact, you are) then you officially work 7 hours a day 185 days a year for 1295 hours a year or $41.34 (and it rises further, probably to around $44 or $45 an hour, when you include vacation and sick time where you are paid but provide no service)
Blake: "Let's not forget the job of a police officer is dangerous"
Oh bull. On the list of top 10 most dangerous professions, they don't even make it. Mining, farming, being a convenience clerk, taxi driving, etc. are all more dangerous.
The reason cops die soon into retirement is beacause they are smoking and drinking fatties. Not because they get shot on the job.
Hey VegasResident,
Try it sometime. It is like pulling lead.
Um, not too sure, but if pillows were as heavy as the lead then pulling a firehose would be like....pulling pillows.
Birdie is Sisolak, if he says different , he's lying...... Again.
@blake
I'd like to see a cite for your stat. Not many cops actually die doing his or her job.
I understand that many cops might problems that are possibly job related, like heart disease, drinking problems, psychological problems, prescription drug abuse etc. that may account for low life expectancy, but that doesn't mean the job itself is that much more dangerous than other jobs.
Mr. Gibbons,
At least get your facts correct. We are in fact hourly employees. Our "salary" schedule is based on 7 hours and 11 minutes per day, 184 days per year (new teachers work an extra 5 days). Teachers also get NO vacation time. We get a flex day (for religious holidays, deducts from sick leave), and either 0, 2 or 4 personal days depending on the amount of sick leave we use in the previous year. We admittedly receive an insane amount of sick leave (1 1/2 days per month). Most teachers I know, including myself, are gone no more than a couple days per year.
Unlike the private sector, we get no bonuses, no paid vacation, no stock options. In exchange, we get decent healthcare, and a retirement pension.
You are also downplaying the fact that in order to receive the "average" pay you cite, you need at least a masters degree-- and you have to pay for that out of your own pocket.
Each HOA should be required to have their own fire department and police force, quit redistributing my wealth to pay for strangers and their self made problems.
To encourage pulling themselves up by the bootstraps, we need to eliminate mining regulation and child labor laws so kids can work their way through school in the local strip mines. Then all education should be privatized and for-profit; all of our kids can get a degree in massage therapy or PC repair.
Brought to you by the church of the "Invisible Hand".
ladies and gentlemen...
boys and girls...
let's make a few things perfectly clear...
first...
i am not sisolak...
don't work for him...
never met him...
but i do think he is the only one on the commission that has a clue on this issue...
namely...
we must begin negotiation with a blank slate...
we must not engage in tit for tat bargaining...
these community destroyers need to be put in their proper place...
second...
birdie has not applied to become a community destroying fireman...
third...
i call these firemen community destroyers...
because when you have an unemployment rate over 14%...
when foreclosure have been running rampant for 2 years now and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future...
if you pay firemen 180k on average...
that will destroy the community...
period...
end of story...
you see...
we are struggling to get textbooks into our classrooms...
got that...
flippin textbooks...
there is no way in hell firemen should average 180k...
no way in hell...
go night...
make sure you tip the waitresses...
i'll be here all week...
Go get a real job fire fighters. Your overpaid, navigator family riding moochers. Firefighters at the BLM get paid 9.00 an hour. So stfu and get a real job where you have to work. Dont vote reid, titus, angle or sandoval. Reid started this mess and sandoval can give a rats behind about teachers or anyother underpaid job that cant contribute to his campaign to keep up with rory reid.
Average of 180K a year? Wow. Their union is out of control...
Disgusting
Mr. Schonenman,
Thank you again for misleading our community and spinning the facts how you see fit. Omissions Mr. Schonenman did not print:
1. Overtime is not factored into retirement. The firefighters cannot refuse to work the OT, it is in their contract. They will be disciplined. The FF did not make the decision to NOT HIRE enough employees over the last 8 yrs. This decision was made by the county manager and commissioners. Also, if the FF's refused to work, fire engines and rescue units would have to be shut down, shifting responsibilities to fire units twice the distance away, only if they were not shut down.
2. The average FF compensation is NOT 180,000/yr. This has been proven to be a bloated figure including salary/overtime/county benefit contributions/etc... Is anyone else's salary figured that way? I don't believe so. People hear that figure and assume the average FF brought home 180K last year. Lets put this into perspective: a 2 yr FF making $20/hr would make $57,600/yr working 240 days @24hr shifts. This would mean that FF would have to work 170 additional days to make $180,000. That means that FF theoretically worked 290 days @24hr shifts to accomplish this? Anyone should realize this is impossible.
3. Retirement insurance is paid by a SELF FUNDED insurance program set up by the FF's union.
It is up to us as residents to check these facts. We are being LED to our conclusions here. Joe, in the name of journalism, please be unbiased and provide us with ALL the facts, not just the ones that you think will get the spin you need.
The information is out there everyone. It should be obvious to all of us that we aren't going to get it from our local publications. Educate yourself on this issue before you condemn your firefighters and before you loose services vital to all of our safety.
I want to know how it is these guys can count on their ot and remote pay as part of their retirement. State employees can't do that, their retirement is based off of their base salary only. Either this reporter is up in the night on his info, or the FF retiring are in for a big surprise, or, state employees are getting the shaft once again. So, by this article, FF ARE in it for the ot and now thats going away, so are they. Interesting how the truth comes out when money is involved.No more ot....leave the job. hhhmm, so much for dedicated public service for the safety of the public eh?
Joe, sorry for the misspell of your name.
@Lipton-
You are correct, he is not correct with his "facts". Overtime is NOT figured into their retirement. It is my understanding that the number of retirements has nothing to do with the reduction of overtime. Many of the departments personnel are just at "retirement age". It is also my understanding that most of the department is happy about reducing the amount of overtime. Their contract "forces" them to work when they are short on personnel. This forces them to work 72hrs in a row. Once again, this was not a decision made by YOUR FF's. They did not choose to not hire enough personnel yet they are the focus of this "witch hunt".
Everyone needs to educate yourself on this topic! Before you hate on YOUR fire department, look into the facts, you will be surprised.
@proudresident
"The average FF compensation is NOT 180,000/yr. This has been proven to be a bloated figure including salary/overtime/county benefit contributions/etc... Is anyone else's salary figured that way?"
Actually the average COMPENSATION IS, in fact 180K. When you add salary with other benefits that = COMPENSATION. How is that misleading or incorrect? And as long as we compare COMPENSATION TO COMPENSATION or SALARY to SALARY and not SALARY to COMPENSATION and the methodology is the same, it is indeed, fair.
The REASON that FFs are getting OT is another matter. The fact is that they manipulate the existing system and reap unconscionable profit from the OT. Now when they fix the OT rules we'll see - one way or the other - if these guys are heroes or base profiteers. And no matter how that comes out I'll wager that fire statistics or response times don't move at all.
ThisOneGuy- Ok, I'll bite... Show me how the average FF pay equals $180K. I'm all ears (or eyes in this case),... I'm a facts/figures person. Please include the ACTUAL average salary and please include the average number of "forced" shifts these individuals had to endure. This figure is being thrown around as if these FF's BROUGHT HOME an average of $180K. You and I both know this is false.
If manipulating of the system is occurring, by all means, discipline those employees.
Thanks RORY. you worthless piece of crap. He approved these outrageous contracts as a county commissioner and now he wants to become governor and screw over the state of Nevada while hooking up more of his union buddies.
BYE BYE REIDS!
ThisOneGuy-Make no mistake, they ARE removing front line units from service. This has begun and will continue,...at OUR safety. My family should NOT be put at risk because someone has a political agenda or vendetta they need to settle! Cut the overtime, I agree. DO NOT take away my emergency services.
Scamming the system. It's the new American way.
Proudresident,
180k is overall compensation package, not just what they take home. Lets say a ff takes home $120k per year ( still way too much)...on top of that you have insurance, pension, etc etc.
Since ff are public servants, they are supported by taxpayers. So the overall compensation package is very important.
You cannot support high wages, retirement after 20 years, then continue to pay them for another 20 years.
It will not work, it is not sustainable.
Look at what is going on in Greece now, and what caused it.
The same will happen here state by state.
Unsilent- I agree. The only way these FF's would make $120,000 is with a significant amount of overtime. Again, any overtime worked (voluntarily or forced) does NOT factor into their retirement. The county's manager/commission need to hire more FF's to combat the overtime issue. You have hit the nail on the head!
Does anyone know how many structure fires a year there are in the valley anyway?
Jrz,
By law, people exempt from overtime are SALARIED workers. The reason you don't receive overtime is because you are exempt. You are exempt because you are salaried.
The fact is, the state average is $53,547 - this is according to the Nevada Department of Education. That is $41.57 an hour for 184 days for the time worked during school hours (sorry for being off by 1).
To reach the state personal income per capita AVERAGE, the average teacher would need to work 15 hours and 15 minutes a day - which is unlikely.
ThisOneGuy- The County Fire Department has a link on the County's website. I believe this could have the information you are looking for.
Teachers in CCSD receive over $5,000 a year extra for having a MA degree. Thus the cost of getting the MA degree is far less than the benefit of getting one (As a teacher). In fact you can recoup your costs in 2-4 years. You also can get substantial bonuses of $1,200 for every 16 credits you earn toward god knows what, up to 32 credits.
Unfortunately, students don't benefit. Much evidence shows that there is little to no correlation between earning a MA degree and teacher effectiveness. In reality, this program is merely a wealth transfer from taxpayers to schools of education at our universities.
To Proudresident,
You're right, overtime is not factored into retirement. Callback pay IS figured into retirement.
The average compensation for firefighters is $180,000, as stated, and includes retirement contributions by the county and insurance contributions by the county. That is from a February 2010 Clark County "Compensation Report" The average for other county employees is about $90,000.
On health insurance, per the firefighter union contract with the county, county taxpayers pay roughly $14,600 per year per Fire Department employee. The average for other county employees is $7,800 per year. Though the county pays those premiums, the union does, indeed, have a "self-funded" program that administers and oversees firefighter health insurance.
Self-funded insurance or not, the county pays those insurance premiums
thanks for the feedback
Joe,
Thank you for the reply. For conversation sake, are you able to tell us out of that compensation figure, how much is overtime? I think this would help us to see if hiring more FF's would make a substantial difference in the overall cost to us (taxpayers). Also, for conversation sake, can we look at county contributions for the commissioners and the county manager (insurance, retirement, etc...)as well as their compensation? Commissioners have been quoted saying everyone needs to concede,... so what exactly have they given up (other than 100's of employees)?
Thank you
Events Metro Cops do everyday:
respond to armed robberies in progress
respond to burglaries in progress
respond to armed and barricaded suicidal subjects
respond to domestics involving armed, intoxicated, or under the influence subjects
respond to hostage situations
respond to barricaded subjects who have just killed their spouse
high speed pursuits of felony suspects
undercover drug buys with cartels or gangs
undercover operations with organized crime figures
service of search warrants on armed felony subjects
responding to vehicle and house fires and pulling the occupants to safety
Mountain rescues of rock climbers and hikers who are stranded
Just because the officers are not killed or injured during these events doesn't mean they are not dangerous. Only a fool would argue the job they do is not dangerous.
blake- although your list is extensive, it is in no way all-inclusive. These people risk their lives each and every day for OUR protection in so many dangerous situations. These are OUR people. When are we going to realize that? Thank you to all the police officers that help make this community safe for my family and myself.
Proudresident,
In FY 2009, from the county's Compensation Report of February 2010, the average firefighter overtime was $24,010.
Keep on posting, birdie. Your posts are like the black oil in the "X-files"--there's no way to get rid of them--lol. That textbook fiasco in LV is hilarious. Did you see the TIME cover story about states in trouble?
I recall that North Las Vegas addressed a major source of the OT problem by reducing truck personell from 5 to 4. What does the County use, and if it is 5, why not do what NLV did instead of reducing services?
Croc1, can you tell us what Las Vegas City uses for a standard?
@ by bape702,
why the hate...I was merely stating hourly wages...you do the math if your so smart and then you can figure out the hours put in and draw your own conclusion....and no im not a graduate from the ccsd...im just trying to shed some light is all.
Birdieboy........
The gig is up.......
We are onto you......
You didn't answer the question......
Why do you only attack firefighters, even when there are other union employees out there making the same if not more?.......
Kind of make one wonder?..........
So who do you really work for?............
What is your real agenda?...........
Don't act like you care about the community.......
If you did you'd be commenting on every single union article written..........
Instead you ONLY attack firefighters..............
There is more to this story...........
That is clear for all to see..................
No matter how you chop it, slice it or dice it, the bottom line is the current situation is fiscally irresponsible and unsustainable, period.
@ThisOneGuy- Average yearly actual fire response for the City fire ONLY is 2899.3 per year since 2000. Per LVFR website.
@boftx- The city staffs 4 man truck companies.
----------------------
Joe, thank you for answering Proudresident's question about FF OT, but you failed to finish answer the second part of the question, "Also, for conversation sake, can we look at county contributions for the commissioners and the county manager (insurance, retirement, etc...)as well as their compensation? Commissioners have been quoted saying everyone needs to concede,... so what exactly have they given up (other than 100's of employees)?"
It shouldn't be that hard, it's a short walk from your office down the hall to Sisolak's isn't it? Or am I mistaken that your office is located near his?
Patience, croc. I've got to write some stories for the paper first. I'll get to it. But can't at this moment.
And, no, my office isn't located next to the commissioner's. lol.
Thank you sir.
croc1
I doubt you will comment on this, but a recent article about NLV and the commissioners were so pleased that they were willing to reduce the staffs from 5 to 4.
If 4 is the norm, then what did they really concede? It seems like an empty giveback. It also seems like they were gouging the system with an unnecessary 5th guy to begin with.
Thats pretty awful that the commissioners would commend them for giving up that 5th guy when other fd are only using 4 anyway.
I hope birdie mentions that one on his campaign trail.
OK crooks take the money and run.
unsilent.- Honestly, truck company operations are usually very labor intensive as far as moving equipment as well as the physical aspect. We would love to have 5 on a truck company. You have to remember safety is the first rule of firefighting. Everyone goes home. Some situations dictate that you have to operate in less than safe conditions, but even then safety is always high on the list. There was a time when we would operate 3 person engine companies, now it is 4. We wouldn't use airpacks, now they are mandatory.
5 person trucks are the way to go if at all possible. Basically it's taking a step backwards from what the fire service is constantly striving to improve upon, and that is the safety of the crews. That's probably why the commissioners commended them. Also when your used to working with 5 on a roof it's quite a change going to 4.
I hope that helped.
The picture makes the guy look like a midget.
That is a terrible picture!
Do you know if the County uses 5 or 4, croc? I understand the safety issues, and would agree that 3 is just not going to cut it.
Interesting new information on the "average FF compensation". Turns out this figure includes ALL compensations. This figure would include monies for medical separations. Medical separation is when these employees are hurt so bad on the job they are not allowed to come back to work. In 100% of the cases their quality of life is diminished. To add these figures into the "average" seems like a stretch. These are not "average" situations.
$24000 in "average" overtime equates to 32 extra days(24hr shifts) a 2yr FF would have to work. Remember, if this FF does NOT work these shifts, they get disciplined.
If I work the national average of 40hrs/week or 160hrs a month, I will work 1,920hrs/year.
In this example, the FF worked 152 days total which equals 3,648hrs/year. This is nearly DOUBLE! This is for a grand total of $81,600.
Joe, can you tell me how the county came to the figure of $180,000?
Lets hire more firefighters! I know it cost more money, but I don't care. A toped out firefighter makes $80k a year, $40k benefits. Their retirement is average three highest years, and 75% of that. None of their overtime goes to their retirement. I know as a tax payer this will cost me more money, but I don't care! I would rather pay more money on taxes, just as long is those firefighters are not making over $100k. I don't care if they are working the hours of three full time jobs to make over $150k, they should never make over $100k. I don't care if they work 25 shifts a month. I know they work 24 hour shifts, but they get at least 4 hours of broken sleep every night. Now that the Clark County no loneger has a Heavy rescue Team, or Hazardous Material Team, we can start saving money. I am glad that the City of Las Vegas will be sending their Heavy Rescue, and Hazardous Material teams into the Clark County. I love the city tax payers paying for those special units. Why can't we get rid of the entire Clark County Fire Department, and have Arizona take care of Laughlin, and City of Las Vegas and Henderson fire department take care of the Clark County.
Proudresident,
if the ff do not work the shifts they get disciplined? What does that mean exactly?
lasvegas- I believe your post is sarcastic in nature.
You are right, though. Our County Fire Dept has begun to remove units from service. If my information serves me right, we currently have the only metropolitan fire department in the nation WITHOUT a Hazardous Materials or Heavy Rescue team. Departments 1/4 the size of Clark County have these resources. Clark County Fire Dept is also has approx 1/2 the staffing/resources needed to make the minimum national standard. Our leaders are dismantling an already understaffed department in order to cover for their lack of hiring. We the public will pay the ultimate price for their mismanagement.
Unsilent- My understanding is that if the fire department does not have any FF willing to work the overtime, they are put into a "forced" situation. The department has to keep the limited number of fire department units staffed 100% of the time. They are operating at bare minimum as it is, to remove a unit from service would cause emergency response times to double in that area. How do you tell someone that they can't come to their emergency or that it will be 15-20min? This means the department "forces" the FF to work or face discipline (to what extent I'm not sure).
Clark County should use Volunteer Firefighters. I know the Clark County is the largest Fire Department in Southern Nevada, "The county had a population of 1,375,765 at the 2000 census, and a 2008 estimated population of 1,996,542,[1] which accounts for over three-quarters of the population of Nevada." Clark County is also a major tourist destination, with 150,000 hotel and motel rooms. The Las Vegas Strip, home to most of the hotel casinos, is not located within the City of Las Vegas, but in Clark County. The Clark County Fire Department is responsible for the safety of the majority of people who live in Nevada, it is also responsible for the 35 million visitors. I don't think the tourist will care if we have Volunteer Firefighters. They won't care in till the first hotel burns to the ground, and many lives are lost, or when their loved ones go into cardiac arrest, and they get a volunteer firefighter 45 minutes after they call 911, and they are only basic EMT.
The County can save money
I selling my house, and moving back to henderson, or las vegas. I want get the best services possible, if I am going to live in a big city. I need people to make the best decision for my safety and my tax dollar. I do not need people making changes just because they are jealous. The clark county finical personnel said it was cheaper to pay overtime than to hire more firefighters. Sisolak said on face to face, he didn't think it was cheaper to pay overtime. I don't care what anyone thinks! I only care about the facts! If it cheaper to pay overtime, then pay it, and if it's not cheaper, than hire more firefighters!
las vegas, your crackin me up.
unsilent, discipline is tiered, but can ultimately lead to termination.
Also, croc1 gives a good explaination to the why 5 on a truck question. Furthermore, because the responsibilities of an effective Truck Company can be so labor and manpower intensive, in some jursidictions Truck Companies have an additional SUV with extra personnel that shadows the Truck Company and assists with all Truck Company assignments.
Don't destroy the Clark County Fire Department. It was the County who came up with the idea not to fill vacant spots, and just have the firefighters work overtime. The firefighters worked the overtime, so the county could save money. Now the fire fighters are the bad guys. If the county hired enough firefighters, there would not be any overtime, or at least not as much.
Sisolak's ignorance in this article is offensive.
"Sisolak says theoretically that means a county firefighter could make as much in retirement as in annual pay. So he expects the overtime changes will lead to an unusually high number of retirements in the next couple of year, which is part of the reason for the current recruitment effort."
This comment alone shows he is uninformed on this issue. Our own commissioner is unaware that the overtime does not factor into their retirement and therefore has NO bearing on their retirement plans. This issue is personal to him and he is dismantling the communities fire department at OUR expense. Our families will ultimately pay the price for commissioner Sisolak's grudge.
It is your duty Mr. Sisolak to represent us (taxpayers/residents) and look out for our safety, well being and best interests. Your actions have shown this issue has become PERSONAL to you and puts all of us at risk by reducing the fire department even more than it already is. Be a leader and make decisions that FIX the department, not dismantle it.
It is awesome, hiring more firefighters to rid overtime will just ram more taxes up your keesters. Next year, you will be complaining that taxes are to high and the Clark County Fire Department salary budget has also increased due to increase in personnel.LMAO
And if you dont like your job(ie: teacher)then do something else. CCFD just accepted 1000 applications, if you were not one of them; its your own damn fault.
Sisolak's ignorance on any issue is nothing new.
He signed a proclamation supporting the boot drive, then stated he did not know it was done on duty (for the last 50 years).
Sisolak has found a grand stand on which he can get his name in the paper and be known by the public purely for political gain. He has his own agenda which means he is trying to recruit as many of the good people of Clark County as he can on this issue for the future. Politics at it's worst. Has he even been to a fire station? Does he know what color apparatus his FD is? I wonder.
Goodman is similar. Only he wants salaries cut to improve the City's bond rating to get better rates on loans to build "his new City" with his name all over it. Even one city counsel member voted against the new City Hall stating, " one day the general fund will be responsible for the payments'. Oscar won't care, he'll be long gone but will have his name on a building.
TO ALL:
If you notice most everyone is contributing intelligent ideas and discussions, (except Birdie Sisolak of course). This is a good thing and is nice to see people who actually care about the issues and are not here just to stir the pot.
I applaud you all.
First of all PLEASE vote Tom Collins OUT!! What an idiot with NO clue. Just wants to be a good ole boy and kiss up to these thug firefighters. He gives them whatever they want. 180K ayear still not enough in his opinion.
The firefighters and county commissioners have screwed the county budget and robbed the taxpayers for years. Thanks to Sisolak someone has finally had the guts to stand up and say ...Wait this makes no sense to pay high school grads 180K a year.
Just got back from the gym, had to wait for 180K a year firefighters getting paid OT, to finish up on the treadmill and stop hitting on the 18 year old girls in front of them: so I could get on. Clark County Fire Fighters are the most arrogant overpaid government servants in this entire country.
WHY? do we pay such a salary, for a job that has thousands of qualified applicants that would be thrilled to do the job for 40 to 50K a year. Who wouldn't work 10 days a month with full retirement and medical benefits for 50K a year and be called a hero?? SO why do we need to pay these current thugs 180K????
Lets see, a teacher pays thousands of dollars to obtain their education and job training; firefighters on the other hand the tax payer pick up the tab for all their training $100,000 for each rookie. Firefighters are paid OT to grocery shop, sleep, eat thanksgiving dinner with their family, collect money for charities, wash their cars, play video games, watch movies, grocery shop,run their second business....ect... teachers are paid NO OT. They are expected to work weekends writing lesson plans, grading papers, buying supplies, staying after school to tutor, run clubs, attend classes in the summer, that they pay for, to get a pay raise....ect...
Average pay for a Clark County Teacher .....$45,000
Average pay for a Clark County Firefighter.....$180,000 a year.
WOW and WHY????
Mattlv, what gym do you workout at, and what time. I just want to make sure I leave a treadmill open for you. I worked a lot of OT last year and didn't make 180k. I have a degree, if it make you feel better.
Matt, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're smart enough to know Firefighters do a couple things other than what you've mentioned. But, in the event that you didn't know...
Hourly rate for a CCFD Firefighter is $17.65/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Engineer is $28.38/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Captain is $31.92/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher is $27.24/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher with 5 years experience is $31.79/hour
If a firefighter only worked 40 hours a week, they would make $35k year.
If a kid working at Burger King worked as many hours is a firefighter he or she would make 100k.
Matt, sorry you couldn't pass the test.
I am getting tired of all the haters! I have been trying to be PC, but it's hard. I would rather meet all you haters somewhere, so we could talk about this over coffee.
Great comments firefighters..Please keep showing the public your arrogance and lost touch with reality.
I love the comments by firefighters who personally attack the citizens of this community because they question "why we pay high school grad firefighters 180K a year" I would be scared of a community that did not question this. Why not pay county janitors 150K a year? They have the same education and who cares if the budget is short millions, this money just grows on trees.
Hey why don't we all just become 180K a year firefighters, the economy would turn right around. Love those comments if you don't like your job then take the firefighter test. No one said they did not like their job!! Just question why firefighters are paid so much more than other governmeent jobs. For some reason firefighters have this entitled attitude that they are hero's and deserve to be paid more than anyone else and if you don't like it. too bad.
Also sick of the; we work all this OT to save taxpayers money. lol lol what heros, Then why are 100's bailing when the OT dries up?
You firefighters save us nothing by working all that OT. Bottom line is you create that OT by trading shifts, and going to calls that do not warrent you being their. Because of your union, you have to send 6 or 7 - 200k a year firefighters to a drunk that bumped his head. Let the private ambulance servcie handle that. But no your union would never do that because 85% of your calls are calls that a private ambualce could handle without 6 firefighters showing up. The system your union has created generates all this OT.
I do believe most firefighters are intelligent and do a great job for our community but, at what cost to the taxpayers. Firefighters can write all the comments they want but, I'm sure the honest ones who did not enter the profession as a greedy entitled arrogant a-hole realize that they are overpaid and go to many many calls that are not necessary.
wow .... Must be a slow night at the station. Firefighter just sit around with their laptops at the station waiting to threaten and put down anyone that questions their salary.
Keep it up guys!!!
I am a first responder and my wife is a teacher and I know many firefighters. I listen to your comments daily and see what you do, on a day by day basis. Can't put a bandaide on a drink without 7 firefighter showing up.
Congradulations on passing your 8th grad civial servcie test. You do deserve 180K a year for that.
I could care less about OT. I started when there was no OT, and never imagined on making over 100K. We have provided the facts. The tax payers save money with us working OT. Did you read the article? We are short 23 firefighters! Thats 23 shifts of OT, not including vacation. Are we allowed to take vacation?
I am glad your wife is making a difference, and you are providing rides to the hospital.
Mattlv-
First of all if anyone is being personally attacked it is us FF being called "thugs" by people like you who think they have it all figured out. I will defend myself and if you think that is a personal attack, maybe you should look in the mirror. If knowledge of this issue was a beach, you would know about a grain of sand. Almost everything you have said has come from the newspapers (joe), or what you have read by the ignorant (to the issue) other people on here.
What is it with you and this "paying a high school grad" thing. Every time you say that it sounds more and more like a jealousy thing over anything else. Just because I don't have a degree does that mean I should be making less money than someone who does, even if it's not in my field?
ALso, stop using the union for a crutch. YOUR politicians are the expert negotiators not us. It's funny one minute we are stupid non-degree "thugs", then the next minute we are smarter than your professional negotiating politicians. Things are just the way these "leaders" have wanted it, now that they screwed up they are pointing the finger at everyone else. When was the last time you heard a politician take responsibility for anything bad? And dopes like you eat it up and fall into line with the other sheep.
Act like an adult man! Investigate for yourself instead of jumping on whatever bandwagon you think you can call people names on. It's very disrespectful, your mommy may spank you.
WOW
Mattlv-
Tell me what your question or concern is and I will do my best to find you an answer. Throwing out random accusations and insults does not further this thread. If you have a valid concern, lets work through it and find the truth.
Matt,
I'm tired of explaining all of these issues over and over again. If you're this passionate about the issue, I'd encourage you to seek some actual facts. Stop by a fire station and express your concerns. I'm sure the crew will be happy to professionally and politely provide you with any answers you seek, unless they're busy at the store or gym (I kid). Unless you have a personal agenda, you have to be smart enough to know that these stories are spun by Joe to provide Sisolak with a platform. Joe has no journalistic integrity at all. None.
But specific to this "article"...
OT has nothing to do with retirement. OT isn't calculated into FFs retirement. Also, 100s aren't bailing, about 100 are or have recently become eligible to retire. Maybe they retire tomorrow, maybe in 5 years.
The FD responds to all calls, because that's the law. 6-8 200K don't respond on every drunk. You being a "first responder" should know this. Additionally, since you're a first responder, you should know just because you may see a homeless or drunk person hit his head doesn't mean he isn't also having a serious underlying medical emergency. Furthermore, just because someone is homeless or a drunk doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve the same care and compassion that you would receive. We treat everyone the same, as quickly and professionally as the situation allows.
I'm biased, but I don't think I'm a greedy entitled arrogant a-hole. I chose my profession because I wanted to make a difference, and I was tired of working in an office. Money was never a factor. I am a topped out FF. I make $26/Hr. I can honestly say that I take my job and responsibility to my community with the utmost seriousness. I try to make a positive difference on every single incident I respond to, whether it's a fire, drowning, cardiac arrest, picking someone who's handicap off the floor, checking on drunks, etc. etc. From time to time I am put in dangerous situations. I am also regularly exposed to very bad things. In exchange for my service I'm paid $26/hr and I definitely don't think I'm overpaid. If you're ever unfortunate enough to have me run on you or one of your loved ones, you'll think I'm a bargain for the level of service I and my crew will provide.
To Croc1,
"Wise teachers impart their knowledge, inept ones impose theirs".
I wish you luck and thanks for trying.
Vegas should be turned to salt. Nothing worth saving here.
Before a single position is filled, lower the starting pay!
mgkrebsii
Everyone says teachers are underpaid. They have a difficult job, but they would make a lot more if they worked more hours. They have weekends off, holidays, and almost 3 months every summer. My uncle is a teacher, and he made well over 100k last year. He taught after school classes, and summer school. How much should a firefighter make, considering they work 240 hours every month. If a firefighter worked the hours of a teacher, everyone would be feeling bad for them.
Hourly rate for a CCFD Firefighter is $17.65/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Engineer is $28.38/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Captain is $31.92/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher is $27.24/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher with 5 years experience is $31.79/hour
You keep saying that we make too much money, so I made some phone calls to see what these other jobs are making.
UMC ER Nurse: $23-$35 hour.
Metro Police Officer: $30-$37.90 hour
Union Electrician: $ 32 hour
Union Painter: $24(journeyman) - $45.62 hour
Carpenter: $17.37-$34.73 hour
Elevator Mechanic: $22.00(first 2 years) - $44.10 hour
CCSD Teacher : $27.24-$31.79 hour
Firefighter $17.47-$27.48 hour (LOWEST PAID)
Maybe we should hire another 500 firefighters, and put them on a 40 hour work week. No firefighter will make of 80k a year, and the tax payers can spend twice as much money on the additional firefighters.
What mutual aid agreement? The City Fire Departments now has to send their Heavy Rescue , and Hazardous Material Teams into Clark County. What is the Clark County doing for the City of Las Vegas, besides getting free service. When this first got brought up, they said one department would keep Heavy Rescue, and the other one a HazMat team. I thought the City of Las Vegas is worse off than Clark County. Good job! What else can we get the City of Las Vegas to pay for?
This article says "Although the job can be hazardous, it can also be lucrative -- even in retirement. County Fire Department retirees are paid up to 75 percent of the average of their three highest years of earnings."
Doesn't all Clark County jobs pay their retirees up to 75% of the three highest years of earnings? The only difference is the Firefighters job is hazardous! How many other jobs, are people getting injured,sick (from treating sick people), and dying. Police might have as many injuries, and deaths, and hospital staff get sick more often than other county workers.
20 minutes after the first day CCFD Heavy Rescue was "taken out of service'. City Fire's Heavy Rescue responded to an auto accident with extrication deep into the county.
The problem is firefighting has always been and always will be different than any other job out there. It's apples to oranges. But it also lends itself to be easily scrutinizes by people who are at the bottom and need a little public boost. It's like a little toddler hitting an adult in the knee during a tantrum. So go ahead and let it out. We can handle it.
"You keep saying that we make too much money, so I made some phone calls to see what these other jobs are making.
UMC ER Nurse: $23-$35 hour.
Metro Police Officer: $30-$37.90 hour
Union Electrician: $ 32 hour
Union Painter: $24(journeyman) - $45.62 hour
Carpenter: $17.37-$34.73 hour
Elevator Mechanic: $22.00(first 2 years) - $44.10 hour
CCSD Teacher : $27.24-$31.79 hour
Firefighter $17.47-$27.48 hour (LOWEST PAID)"
How many off these people get paid to do charity work? To go grocery shopping? To sleep? To go to the gym? Shower? How many of these other jobs do you call of sick and get paid for 24 hours? The amount of sick hours and vacation hours is disgusting!
Your hourly wage is in line...your wage per unit of work done or actual time working is WAY out of line!
Sometimes you like to use hours...sometimes you like to use days...whatever supports your argument! I love how somebody said you call off less sick days than other county groups...Yes, but each sick day is 24 hours!
Ten of those days at 27/hr = $6,800 times that by 1.5 for the OT required and $17,000 is needed for your sick days.
Yes, you are around sick people so you may get sick more often. On the other hand your immune systems have to be advanced and you shouldn't really have back to back sick days as there are 48hrs in between shifts. Most people that use 10 sick days have 2-3 incidents that cause that. You guys are trying to tell me you get sick 10 seperate times a year?
FF's - Do you mind telling us how many sick days and vacation days you used last year?
Better yet, how many sick hours and vacation hours were you paid for?
Do you run your business like any normal, cost conscious company would? When OT is necessary, is it offered to the lowest paid person first?
Doubt it! Either the union says it must be shared equally or better yet, the highest seniority shall have first pick!
This is just me speculating...I really have no idea but if you think about it, I would bet that I am correct and guarantee that unions have your department running @$$ backwards from how YOU WOULD RUN YOUR OWN BUSINESS!
akrowdybuck, I don't remember how many times I was sick last year, but so far this year I've called in once. 1 time in six months. There are a lot of FFs that don't "abuse" sick time. The only reason the average is where its at is becasue sometimes people get sick or injured off-duty, if it requires surgery and they cant work they use sick time. Exactly what it's intended for. Sick time is even charged when someone takes maternity leave. Should we fire the working mothers that need time off to give birth because they use sick time?
I'll bet that most if not all of the jobs you quoted earn time off. Some at rates near to or better than FFs, some less.
Yes, when we are sick we are "paid" for 24 hours. Well actually, 24 hours of sick time we've earned is deducted from our account. It's 24 hours deducted for 24 hours taken off. If an 8hr/day worker, called in sick, they'd be charged 8 hours. Is that somehow different? Seems like the same 1-1 ratio to me.
The first factor that determines who works OT, is who worked last. If the most junior person wants to work OT, they can be selected before the most senior person based on who worked most recently. You see, the Union actually tries to create a fair working environment for all it's members, not just the senior ones.
If they hired more FFs, the sick days would be covered at normal time. Oh and don't forget, FFs are forced to work quite regularly. If they don't, they get disciplined.
Some of the things we do on duty are different than most jobs, because we're at work for 24 hours. Regardless, whether I'm training, shopping, physically conditioning, eating, or even pooping. We are ready to respond to the next emergency at a moments notice. Responding to our public's emergencies is the number one priority and everything else takes a back seat. We respond as quickly as is safe to do on every emergency, regardless of what we were in the middle of.
I respect that you bring intelligent conversation to these forums, but you are one of the people that makes me want to bang my head against the computer. Why do you repeatedly bring up the exact same points from "article" to "article". Your answers have been provided numerous times.
I'll even provide you with a solution, again... hire more FFs and FF total compensation will drop drastically.
If you are so passionate about this issue, I'd encourage you to seek the truth. Find out what it's really like. Go down to the administration of CCFD or LVFD and demand that as a taxpayer, you wish to do a 24 hour ride along, sign the waiver of liabilty, go ride along at St 18, or St 1 on a Friday or Saturday and see what it's like.
hey buddy...I know you said you are tired of hearing the same rant, but I believe this to be the first intelligent response that actually had reasoning for high sick days (at least that I have noted). Most jobs have policies for extended leave but I wouldn't think that would be equated into sick days...if so then that changes the number. Thank you for taking your job seriously and only calling off 1x. I called off sick once in the past 14 years for when I had a baseball game rescheduled in high school haha. Even if you are getting cashed out on your sick days you are not requiring OT so I appreciate it. Thanks also for explaining the OT system in which I would have lost money if I did bet on that.
As to hiring...I have mentioned plenty of times as well, that unions create barriers to entry! Google a raising minimum wage and the effect on un-employment...this is the same as a union raising wages and benefits above what the labor market would command.
I do not think it is a stretch to say that the extensive benefits that the union negotiated for you, makes it much more expensive to higher people in. Thatis part of the reason that we are even talking about it being more cost effective to pay 15 million in OT than to higher in.
Answer me this one question though...if you were running the fire departmen as your own business, with you as the owner, would you be able to shave millions of dollars without impacting the safety of your city/county? I think you would and I believe that the union would fight you all the way when all you are trying to do, is run an efficient business. This is my biggest issue(inefficiencies and the union fighting to keep it inefficienty...sounds crazy doesn't it?) Sometimes I slip into becoming a hater but I get paid good money myself. I should be congratulating not hating! My fight is with your union but unfortunately you are the public face that gets most of the wrath
Joe, In case you missed it... You have NO JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY. None!
You must be a joke to all your coworkers that actually pursued journalism because they wanted to tell the truth. You repeatedly tell only one side of the story. Don't you think your readers deserve the whole story?
Your drivel is slap in the face of every good journalist that has come before you and tried to make writing a respectable craft.
I do however, consider another option... Maybe, just maybe, your editors are forcing you to only tell one side. If this is true I understand, and respectfully apologize for my claims. You're only trying to protect your job. But if this is the case, send us a message so when can rally behind you. If this is true, delete this post as a sign of affirmation and we'll all understand the difficult situation you find yourself in.
akrowdybuck, I understand your question. Hopefully cool heads prevail during negotiations that can make a win-win given the terrible economic climate that we find ourselves.
I'm far from running this department, but I could imagine that while you do want to trim fat, when it comes to public safety there is a fine line between being efficient and being underprepared. I good fire department, is one that is proactive. When it comes to public safety, if you're going to be proactive it requires a lot of resources. If you look at those resources while an emergency is not actually happening at that given moment, all those resources seem like a waste, but if you look again when all of the resources are called into action, suddenly you see that it's necessary to have all those resources if you are going to be able to respond to an emergency with the resources necessary to effectively solve the problem. We deal in seconds and lives. Every cut needs to be carefully weighed. For example cutting the Heavy Rescue and the Hazmat was a terrible blow to this communities level of protection.
Gotta run. Thanks for discussing this intelligently.
Volunteer firefighters comprise 72 percent of the total firefighters in the United States; 70 percent of all fire departments in the country are all-volunteer, according to the U.S. Fire Department profile through 2008. There are no paychecks, no fancy uniforms for the officers, and their equipment is like a little brother's wardrobe - hand-me-downs. According to the National Volunteer Fire Council Foundation, services contributed by volunteer firefighters save localities across the country an estimated $37.2 billion per year. Please don't let a few bad apples spoil your view of all firefighters.
@ akrowdybuck-
I have owned a business in my younger days. As I have stated before, and as Buddy eluded to, a fire department cannot be run like a regular business it just doesn't work. A normal 24 hour business would have 3 shifts, and with the income from that business could pay for all the employees. The (City) FD brings in a small amount of income through transports, but not enough to support the budget. This is why 24 hour shifts are the fiscally responsible way to go. And is why virtually every FD in the country uses this format or a similar facsimile of. As well as I believe, this helps with sustainability of employees.
And with the price of investing in new hires, you really want to keep what you have. This is my belief anyway.
Croc,
To clarify, you would have no problem issuing the checks if you were the "owner" of the fire department?
If you are, would you still no problem cutting the checks if you had more going out then what is going out (operating at a net loss)? Well that is what is happening to our tax dollars, both here, and all over the entire nation. We are paying more for services than we are willing to pony up for.
My question to you is what has to give? A hnt on my solution is that it is not to collect more tax dollars :)
akrowdybuck-
I am not adverse to cutting back, Lord knows I have had to at home (my wife is in real estate). And neither is our union, (I have the article for veiw). But I believe it should start at the top and with frivolous expenditures that we do not need. To me this is a no-brainer.
For some reason the powers that be don't seem to think the way I do.
akrowdybuck,
You must be single, or at least have no kids. Three of my five sick days last year, were not for me, but for my children. This job is very physical, and we are exposed to injuries. We can not work with a sprain, stain, broken bones. My old job I was able to work with a broken arm, and broken leg. It is obvious we have a small group of people who abuse the sick days, just like every where else. We all know who they are, and we tell them how we fill. We have a firefighter who had is name in the paper for a sick time abuser. He might call in sick once a year, but because he took off five months for knee surgery, he was a "sick time abuser".
Mr Race Car
Name one other place is large is Las Vegas that has volunteer firefighters. Las Vegas is the number one tourist destination, with billions of dollars on the strip. REALLY!
Race Car Diva, please dont take this the wrong way, but I don't understand your point. I'm not up to date on volunter stats, but let's just say your figures are correct. Yes, there are a lot of volunteer firefighters across the nation. And?
Lets just hire enough firefighters to stop overtime. I am sick and tired of all these haters, who just don't get it! They don't understand the County Management started this practice to save money. We are going to have to hire a lot more than 23, to fill the vacancies, vacation, and sick days. Then I want to know how much the fire departments budget increases, for all the extra benefits, training, clothing allowance, and retirement. I am sure a few people will be happy that no firefighter is making over 100k, even though it will increase the our taxes.
I have some bad news for you haters, are you ready. Firefighters are hard workers, and many of them will get another side business after call backs stop. Many of them will still be making over six figures. SORRY!
Guys, go ahead and retire. People don't appreciate it anyway, so let's see how it's done without you!!
People love to talk $#!+ until they're in trouble. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Go find some peace and let somebody else deal with it. I don't blame you for one single second!!!
I think that is the issue las vegas. Not that you make money but that hiring 23 people will cost us will not be cost effective. How is it that it cost so much per employee? The numbers do not add up as I am seeing it. Even if it cost 250k per employee, and they hire in 24, it will cost 6 million dollars. If these 24 could make a big dent in 15 million of OT it seems like it would be cost effective to hire more?
Maybe because you have a clothing allowance...I don't get paid to buy slacks, a suit or anything I need for work. Yes they get ruined too...I've blown out a few haha (I know I should get to the LVAC more myself)! I actually pay into my health care each month (not sure if you do or not). I have a lot of friends on Akron Fire. They get paid way more than they use for workout allowances, clothes, etc. How about you show receipts and get reimbursed for your clothes. Even that is more than I think is deserved. Please share how much your clothes allowance was last year and how much of that you actually used. Many professions go through lots of clothes and do not get paid for them.
This is yet again another barrier to hiring that shouldn't be there!
akrowdybuck, almost every entity that requires their employees to wear a unifrom, public or private, either provides the uniforms for the employees or they shuffle the responsibility of acquiring the uniform to the employee and compensate the employee for the required items. For example, every casino along the Strip has an enourmous uniform/laundry department, which provides a clean uniform to each of the employees everyday. The employee simply walks up and gets a new clean uniform for the day. I would assume that there is a sizable cost associated with having to manage all the uniforms. The fire department chooses to put the responsibiity of purchasing, laundering and maintaining uniforms to the individual employee. In turn they pay us for the uniform and I would assume there is an additional amount that was agreed upon that compensates the employee for bearing this responsibility. Some days I only wear one shirt for the shift and one pair of pants. Some days I have to change my uniform 2-3 times a day because my uniform gets soiled in one way or another.
Honestly, it would be much easier for me if they kept their clothing allowance and I could simply show up to work and a new freshly laundered uniform was waiting for me. If I soiled it during my shift I could simply request a new one as needed. That would be great! I'd gladly give up my clothing alowance if the deprtment would take over the responsibility. This is one of those management decisions that actually saves the County money, but people like Sisolak will call a "perk". I'm sure the Union and the department agreed on the allowance, becasue it saved the County from having to manage the inventory and process, and the Union has the forsight to know that in lean times the County would say, sorry, no new uniorms this year. Then the firefighters would start showing up to emergencies wearing jhorts and tanktops.
Well la de da, the crybabies are gonna hang it up,they've milked the system for all it's worth and now they can retire dishonestly, have a nice life you thieving nimnulls. Don't forget, you still have to pay your tithing,don't let the church down.
fedup2here, once again you make a great point.
The crybabies that you refer to have given anywhere from 20-30+ years of service to their community. They have made a positive impact on countless lives. Lives have literally been saved through the efforts of these crybabies you refer to.
I don't understand what anyone's faith in god has anything to do with this discussion, but thanks for adding something intelligent to the discussion.
The DAYROOM HEROES (fire service) fraternity is the most blatant lie ever perpetrated on the American taxpayer. The goofy schedule was originally negotiated to give the dayroom hero adequate time off for the stressful job. Yet every one has a part-time job, usually for cash. Does anyone know one who does not have at least one new truck or car? Working fires are rare. Their schedule while "on duty" include sleeping one third of the time, dayroom tv in the recliner, pumping iron and other personal time another third of the time and MAYBE a third of the time responding to EMS calls (even that is bogus because private ambulance companies are dispatched to respond and the fire department sends a whole company of staff to stand there and watch the privates do the work). Of course, then they can artificially pump up their run response numbers. Ever see several heroes at the local store arriving in a departmental vehicle to shop for groceries? This ritual happens several times each day at each station. Then, they spend hours preparing and eating several meals on the payroll.
Can you imaging our law enforcement officers operating like this? Isn't anybody else out there that sees the enormous percentage of our deficit is caused by this bloated department?
Waytogo Clark County for holding these bandits' feet to the fire! Personally, I automatically vote against any politician that is endorsed by the fire union. You might want to consider doing the same...
@ notadayroomhero- Is it shoenmann or is it Sisolak. I think your'e too stupid to be either, or maybe just dumb enough.
I suppose you have been on a tour at the fire house so you think you know it all. Typical. I'm sure you see dead babies and grieving parents everyday at your job. You flatter yourself thinking you know so much about my job, you are not man enough to make a zit on my ass. If you don't like the way things are here then move. Hell I'll even help you pack, I can't promise the door won't hit you on the ass on the way out though. Did I hurt your feelings.....Tough S*&%t.
dirtyape...if you find Vegas so offense feel free to move, we have plenty of other high school drop outs to fill your position at McDonald's...
So what is the split between the retirement contributions of the employee and Clark County? Is it matched 50/50? No one in the civilian job market gets even close to this compensation and they are subject to continual layoffs.
For the civilian employee, the ramifications of being laid off 1 year in every 5 yeas which is very common today, are to consume all retirement savings made before another job is found. This leaves them with only social security checks - a shoddy pittance of their income reserved from a 45 year working period.
The real estate debacles created by greed alone create enormous debt that will never be paid off except through bankruptcy. Many of the taxpayers who pay the fire fighters salaries will have to go bankrupt themselves to be able to afford retirement. This is the new American economics that will be around for a long time.
My guess is that it costs about 10 times more to fight the fires than to rebuild the destroyed structures. It may make more sense to have containment crews to keep the fire from spreading and let the house go.
Retiring fire employees will have more time build the businesses they have started on the outside - a win/win deal. Starting a fly-tying business for instance and writing off the trips to Alaska to research the product performance and payoffs is much more rewarding than holding a hose. Amazon has a lot of great books on businesses for retirement - and what to see in North America.