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Friday, Jan. 22, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Sun Coverage
Dear Mr. Sun: Why is it that casinos in Monte Carlo and all over Europe make enough money with single-zero roulette while U.S. casinos, including Las Vegas casinos, use double-zero, doubling their odds? That’s not fun and as a result I simply don’t play roulette here. I believe double-zero roulette, tighter slots, etc., are a factor in Las Vegas’ gambling revenue going down month after month. — Alexander, Denver
Double-zero roulette wheels, which have both a zero and a double-zero, were the standard in gambling halls worldwide until the mid-1800s, according David G. Schwartz, UNLV’s esteemed gaming historian. That’s when Francois Blanc — whom Schwartz describes as the Steve Wynn of 19th-century Europe — won a gambling concession in Bad Homburg, Germany, and used single-zero roulette to attract gamblers.
Blanc’s German casino became the most popular in Europe. And when he and his brother later took over operation of the Casino Monte Carlo, their more gambler-friendly roulette wheel expanded its reach and become the continent’s standard.
Gamblers have good reason to prefer single-zero roulette. It gives the house a 2.7 percent edge, compared with double-zero roulette’s 5.26 percent house edge.
Las Vegas grew up outside the European tradition and thus double-zero roulette was its standard. Single-zero roulette was reserved for high rollers. Single-zero and European roulette are offered at Aria, Bellagio, Caesars Palace, Green Valley Ranch, Luxor and Rio, among others, according to a survey by wizardofvegas.com.
Amid the recession, however, Las Vegas casinos are offering single-zero roulette beyond the high-limit rooms, experts say. That wizardofvegas.com survey found Aria, Mirage and MGM Grand offering European-style roulette in their main casinos with $25 minimum bets.
Questions for Mr. Sun can be sent to page8@lasvegassun.com.
hey all they have to do is take paint black paint over the double 00 on the wheel - they wont have to spend money to get a new wheel - then on the table felt - paint a logo or something on the double 00 patch. VALA new table - and maybe more players??
I hope this story doesn't give Harrah's any ideas about triple or quadruple zeros on roulette or 7 for 11 on blackjack.
ITs very obvious that the slots (video poker)are changed in recient months. As you can tell the chips are not the only controling factor as they claim. They are hurting the whole Las Vegas valley area. By these actions, yet the gamming comission never is seen checking the machines for proper payout percentages. How much do they get to keep silent? Gambler Watcher.
All gaming in Las Vegas is a rip off these days! The only thing I will consider wagering is on a good old 10 x odds crap table wherever one can be found! Craps is the only game so far they haven't figured out how to screw the player over. Given time however I'm sure Steve Wynn will figure out a way to make the stick men share their tips from players with management!
FWIW:
In 19th -- century Monte Carlo, Francois Blanc arranged for suicide victims to have their pockets filled with money to prevent stories of ruined gamblers' killing themselves.
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simple answer ....greed
GCB, internal audit, and external audit are checking the payout percentages all of the time - they don't need to go to the machines to do that- there's a million reports that are run, and statistically compared every day to ensure correct percentages. BTW - the law is 75% payback. Considering most video poker is between 95-100% payback, that's probably where you're noticing a difference.
the idiots running these casinos still have not figured out that screwing the customers with 6/5 blackjack, double in the field bet on 12, and 30 for 1 on twelve and aces is bad for business. Too much competition from indian joints and other casinos to screw people on the payouts. Go back to giving more than the customer expects and people will come--it wouldn't matter-they all lose in the long run anyways-just takes a little longer and the customer thinks they got a bargain.
This is funny.....the title of the article is "Why not go to single-zero roulette?"
The real answer is.....because even if you had single-zero roulette, people would still play double-zero roulette. Want proof? Why are the 9/6 jacks or better machines always less busy than the crappy 7/5 Double Double Bonus Poker machines? Because people are too ignorant to know the difference and will play the worst games. Vegas wasn't built on winners.....
Even if 1/2 the population were smart.....the law of averages says the other 1/2 will be stupid. The amount of money from 1/2 of Stupid is much more than all of Smart. Hilarious.
S711
You fine and interested readers: It's not only the difference between double-zero (-5.26 per cent) and single-zero wheels (-2.70 per cent, respetively -1.35 per cent on the even money bets), but also on the way it's being offered in Europe. Roulette is so poplular because the dealers are very well trained and the players in Europe get the chance to bet entire sections, neighbor-bets, series, finals, and other types of games. The dealers help even the players to place the bets, unlike to the boring and Vegas style American Roulette where I can see absolutely not one single reason why it should be played at all. The two zeros are making the house edge way to big for the player to stand a chance, plus then, one game takes forever until the dealer is finished sorting out the chips, doing the payout, etc.
But that's not all: In Europe, the players can start placing the new bets for the next game as soon as the dealer has cleaned the layout and has started paying out. It's absolutely paranoia and ridiculous that in almost all Vegas style roulette games the players must wait until all winners are paid. Most casinos don't even let the winner of a 10 dollar chip in red to take off his winners until the very last chip on the straight-up is paid. Hey, hello, but what's the idea behind this stupid rule???? If you bet 100 dollars on black en passant and there are many chips on the winning number, why does the player who bet black have to wait till everything is paid and the "dolly" has been removed from the winning number? This is all paranoia and makes the game unfriendly, hostile and slow.
I am not trying to advertise the game itself, but I am just showing up the big differences. In Europe, until the late 80s and early 90s, so-called "French Roulette" was THE GAME. Today, they changed that and offer European Roulette, which is a mix of American Roulette (one dealer-only) and offers games being played on the French Roulette. To help the dealer speed up the game , almost all casinos have chip sorting machines , either in the table, or put on the side. This way the dealer is more customer related and accepts bets, helps placing chips on numbers the player can't get to, and is more efficient. At the old traditional Vegas style American Roulette tables, you mostly see one bored dealer who is not only very slow, but also very bored as most of the time he/she is busy stacking up chips, sorting them by colors, and that's why I believe this version of Roulette will never become as popular as for instance the craps games where there's a lot of action going on , always.
From Switzerland
I say go the other way, I love to screw the dumb public
0 00 000 Roulette
even payout $$ blackjack
Flush or better pays even money video poker
GL, Vegas
Station Casinos is avertising rooms at rates...let's say...45.99 plus tax. But then here comes the super zero!!!! State tax: 13 per cent....here we are at 51.97 usd. And then there's 12.99 room resort fee, plus taxes....which makes it about 14 dollars on top of the 51.97 dollars. And here we have a grand total of 65.97 dollars for rooms that were advertised at 45.99 usd!!! What's the point here???? It's even worse than double-zero to me. It's an insult! Do they ever wonder how come they can't fill their rooms anymore????
And our friend, BorisR, the "Thread Hijacker of the Year" somehow finds a way to try and move the conversation away from the real topic. Are you ever going to get off your soap box? It's getting old/tired.....nobody gives a crap.
Hilarious!!!
S711
I knew you were watching, Sinatra. This was just for you to make sure you're on track of the discussion :) I was putting you to the test, seing if you're at home (saving money) or under way (sponsoring the econoy and the poor casinos).
Greetings from Switzerland
I play single zero roulette whenever I stay at the Wynn...there are two single-zero tables in the baccarat pit.
bigdaddyj
What happens when you put 500 dollars on red and zero comes out? Do they split that bet or take it all?
In Europe, this is the best bet with only 1.35 per cent disadvantage. You only lose have of your initial wager. What is the minimum bet in the Wynn on that single zero wheel? Can you play there if you only bet outside bets? Might be interesting to go for a shot after a terrible session in the poker room, speaking of a "last chance roulette move" :)
From Switzerland
BorisR - surprised you don't understand why one must wait for all winning bets are paid before you are able to remove your winning bet. There are many documented cases of past-posting - or placing a 'winning bet' after the ball has landed. So if you force everyone to wait, the dealer doesn't have to worry about someone sliding a $100 chip on a column bet after the spin and raising a ruckus that they should be paid.
For someone who writes some very long posts sometimes, you sure haven't thought about they 'why's' very often.
GooGooDolls - United States of America.
That about sums it up..Very good GooGoo.....
In all single zero games the even chance bets loose half of your bet if zero comes. Same is true for the Wynn single zero tables. They are in the baccarat pit; thus minimum bet is $100 on the even chance bets. But still it is better to stay away from roulette. If you can, stay away from all games; at the end you will be loosing. If you want to play, best games are certainly (in smallest house edge going up) blackjack (use basic strategy on a dealer stands on all 17 strip games), baccarat (first bank bet, then player bet; never tie & other bets) and finally craps (only pass or don't pass line full odds and come don't come full odds nothing else) .
@ GooGooDolls: Thank you for giving me lessons on why somebody cannot/may not remove the winning bets and his wagers from red after for instance 18 has won and the dealer must first figure out how much is to be paid if there are...let's say...7 corners, 9 straight ups plus 8 splits. I understand that this will totally over-task the average dealer so all action at the table must be stopped until such a payout is complete. I also understand that the very same dealer who is told not to accept any outside action is probably not able to pay in one but splits up the winnings by bets, so he will probably pay that player 3x, first for the corners, then for the splits and last, finally , for the straight-ups. The total payout would be...507 chips if I am not miscalculating something here.
Look, GooGooDolls, the reason why I was asking is because I noticed that while watching and I had quite a chuckle about so much paranoia.
Let me explain to you how it works over here:
The dealer has to pay out all outside bets , colums, dozens, first. Once this is paid, he will proceed to the inside bets. All outside bets may be taken off as soon as they're paid. There will be no payouts after that unless the dealer happens to forget something, in which case he has to notify the floorman and surveillance would verify what has to be paid.
Players are allowed to place new bets for the next game even while the dealer is paying out. The dealer also accepts new bets from the winners so the player can already play new bets in the new game.
....to be continued....
part two:
Players are not allowed to place anything into the winning fields. No new streets or six-lines while the dealer is still paying. But they can bet the winning dozens, or for instance red or the column of the winning number, even while the dealer is paying, as he will pay in order and the outside bets will not be paid after he's finished paying the bets on the numbers.
"Conservative Casinos" do not let the players place new bets around the number that has just one up to one six line up and down that number. For instance, if 28 has won and the dealer is still paying out, then there can only be wagered from 1 to 24 and theoretically the last 3 numbers. This was seen in some Easter European joints that are very carefully of cheating. Western European casinos are fully video controlled and there is little concern that there are cheat bets.
It has to be said that sometimes players still place on corners but the dealers then are told to remove these wagers and tell the player that he can't do so.
Also, because most cacsinos in Europe are only a "fraction" by size of typical Vegas style casinos, our surveillance team can be contacted regularly and is there to help us out in case of a doubt. Also, there are roulette supervisors checking the tables. In Vegas, most dealers work absolutely alone, and this explains why the games are boring, slow and there is so much paranoia. It seems to be that they rather want to keep the game super slow and avoid any mistake than having the game at a certain pace and make it itneresting to the players. But that's the way they want it in Vegas, and the European way. Perhaps it explains how come B-J is so much more fun in Vegas, but roulette is our game.
By the way, GooGooDolls. I have been a roulette dealer for years and also deal other games. I believe that I know what I am talking about, as long as it comes to roulette ;)
Greetings from Switzerland
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
I'm not sure why anyone would object to the game being slow paced. By nature of spinning a ball into a wheel with manual payout and count the game is not fast. Most articles I have read reference craps and blackjack as faster paced games and the others as slower.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
I always thought the 0's are to remind you how much money you'll have after.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Has it ever been tried?
--Earning shares in the casino as comps for play. Talk about loyalty!
--A roulette wheel with no "0". The house hase a "gimme" slot on the wheel. When the ball lands on the "G" spot, the house sweeps all bets. How would that work out on the odds?
--A co-op casino. You join at different membership fee levels. The higher levels, the looser the game options. It kind of works that way now. High limmits, better BJ and single "0".
Your membership is a buy-in for a term certain. Kind of like a player CD. If you don't play, the House pays you interest. You get your money back on maturity. (When you grow up!)
--A green slot gym that hold Watt-Olympics. The faster you crank your bike-o-Slot, Bow-a-slot, the more juice you make for the house, and the looser and hotter your slot gets. Dam, Bolder! whol needs it?
Olympic crankers who produce the most juice go into finals for the jackpot pool. Think thunderthighs. (Matrix Slots?). Paramedics, please stand by.
No, not smokin' Just thinking. (Beats bitchin!)
In2wishin - Very interesting ideas. I will bring that up at our next meeting to discuss future promotions/ideas. Thanks for sharing.
S711 - Las Vegas, NV in the good ol' USA!
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained a personal attack.
Casinos charge what the market will bear, no more -no less. This "pricing" is the role of management in every business. Some are better at it than others. Some operatiors, Binion for example, subscribe to the philosophy that the better the odds for the player the more volume, loyalty, and sustained business health. Others try to derive more revenue in a shorter amount of time (typically these operators do not make significant capital improvements and their casino floor managment team tend to "sweat" the win/loss. These may be under financial pressure to manage debt service, or, they simply do not feel it necessary in order to maintain their business levels. Margins of the casinos in Vegas today are very strained and customer loyalty must be bought again and again.
Sometimes, less is more. double zero roulette is clearly indicating to the players that the house wants a double-advantage, not just 1 number, but two. Just like 6:5 black jack, as if it's not enough to play with 1 per cent house edge, the house wants more. Or just like cutting down the videopoker paytables.
But there's a flip side of that story: Players aware of that may quickly get the impression as if the house is actively tightening up. In a consequence, players will also tighten up.
One of the good exacmples for such activities of the most recent period is the M Resort. They started with extremely loose machines, but removed them step-by-step. Station Casinos did the same, and so did the Fiesta. Just like feeding the fish at the beginning to get them hooked up before tightening up the belly.
Another disappointing example is the change of the value of the Las Vegas Advisor fun-coupon booklet, as well as the American Casino booklet. The value of the books keeps going down but the price remains the same. But this is probably not the companie's fault. I think the casinos do not want to offer the good freebies any longer and must save at all corners now. Very sad. I remember when there was the 125 coin bonus for a 4-of-a-kind at the Rampart Casino and so many interesting match play coupons inside of the LVA, but that's a long time ago :(
From Switzerland
GrandmaCrabby
I just returned from 8 hours of dealing roulette. I can only tell you that roulette over here is "THE GAME". We accept call bets up to the very last moment, people bet from 50 to 500 or sometimes even 1000 per spin, up to the very last moment. We accept call bets and many times the dealer is not even able to place all bets on the layout. We do have a special section which is called "The Racetrack". It's actually nothing but the wheel numbers in order but divided in sections, like "the tier", the "orphans" and the "voisin de zero". These are the main fields people can also bet. But we also take neighbor bets from 1 neighbor, to 2, 3 and up to 4 neighbors. We are not so strict about not accepting anything after the dealer says "No more bets" and everybody knows that he ball is jumping around before eventually sitting tight in a field. The action bets during the spin are sometimes even more important than the bets made before the dealer finally spins the ball. We spin the ball about 20 to 25 times per hour, and we do have chip sorting machines that help the dealer to work fast. We do not waste time by sorting chips and the dealer's job is to serve and help the player. A big difference. Maybe you have been to the Mirage. They also have similar chip sorting machines, but they're crab. Our machine brings up stacky by 20 just in front of the colors, so the dealer only has to push these stacks to the color. Saves precious time. In return, the dealer is mostly busy paying out and helping to place chips and taking new bets, making changes etc.
If I watch an American Roulette Game in a typical Vegas style casino, I can only tell you it's a hell of a difference and Europeans probably don't play this game in Las Vegas. It's simply too slow and too boring. Also, if somebody wins 2000 or so in Vegas, they make a big deal out of if. Floorman needs to verify, call up at times, and before you get cash chips it takes forever. We are very efficient in this regard and pay as the players want it. For instance, a payout of 210 chips by 10 dollar chips is not paid in 210 chips but rather by 500 or 1000 usd in cash chips and the other half in chips. Just as the player wants it. And it's not being reported all the time. We just pay and the game continues. I am sure this might be some challenge for Vegas' casino managers but of course they want it their way.
When I come to Vegas, I play my favorite videopoker machines and spend hours in the poker rooms. That's what is so great about Vegas. Roulette is a side action game. Actually nothing special.
From Switzerland
Yeah right. As greedy as Vegas has become, you're going to see "triple 0" roulette LONG before any of these clowns think about giving up a piece of their hold %age.