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Saturday, Jan. 16, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Carl Icahn
Fontainebleau
Sun Archives
- Deadline for Fontainebleau bids set for Friday (1-11-2010)
- Fontainebleau judge details guidelines for credit bid (12-8-2009)
- Fontainebleau: Half-built bargain bid up by billionaire (12-7-2009)
- Fontainebleau lenders sue construction companies over liens (11-27-2009)
- Fontainebleau retail component seeks bankruptcy protection (11-27-2009)
- Contractors make another bid for Fontainebleau (11-26-2009)
- Penn National’s bid sets up auction for Fontainebleau (11-5-2009)
- Fontainebleau subcontractors organize to finish project (11-17-2009)
- Fontainebleau developer plans appeal of rulings (11-2-2009)
- Subcontractors fall short in effort to move Fontainebleau case (10-26-2009)
- Executive named examiner in Fontainebleau bankruptcy case (10-16-2009)
- Fontainebleau president among execs leaving project (10-15-2009)
- Fontainebleau a symbol of bad timing, not the only victim (10-12-2009)
- Fontainebleau judge wants quick sale of bankrupt project (10-2-2009)
- In reversal, Fontainebleau lenders suggest liquidation (9-25-2009)
- Fontainebleau: Bank no longer ‘seeking to destroy’ project (9-17-2009)
In years past, casino bankruptcy auctions generated a frenzy of activity, with multiple bidders emerging at the last minute with the promise of cash at the other end of a cell phone. Those with little money or credibility would quickly drop out, leaving a few usual suspects vying for a shot at a bargain buy.
There may be no such party for the bankrupt, unfinished Fontainebleau Las Vegas resort that is sought by billionaire investor Carl Icahn.
On Friday — the deadline imposed by the bankruptcy court for competing bids — additional bidders quietly surfaced, according to a source close to the situation. But whether they would qualify could not be determined.
So Icahn, the front-runner for Fontainebleau with a starting bid of $156.2 million, may end up holding the bag.
And what a bag it is. The resort, a spectacular victim of the downturn, is no slam-dunk casino bargain.
Some experts think it will cost $1.5 billion just to finish the resort, on which construction stopped in the summer after lenders pulled $800 million in financing in the worsening economy and forced the property into a bankruptcy filing.
Fontainebleau is believed to be the most expensive, half-built building in the nation. That’s uncharted territory for any buyer, including Icahn.
Icahn has maybe three options.
• He could spend the $1.5 billion that Penn National Gaming — a company that pulled out of the running early in the bidding process — estimated it would take to finish the job. Penn did months of homework investigating the project and crunching numbers on what it would take to generate a profit on the resort. That kind of money, the company said, would yield a luxury resort the caliber of Mandalay Bay — nicer than most but no Wynn Las Vegas. Outfitting the property on the cheap and filling it with chains like Cheesecake Factory and Outback Steakhouse, while nice restaurants, wasn’t going to do it for Penn.
• Icahn could spend less than that to complete the building. Some observers have theorized that subcontractors might agree to finish the building at lower rates given that some money is better than none. Cost cutting, when done with a deadline and a finely tuned blade, might yield a more cost-effective structure.
• Third, he could opt to not finish the building and simply sit on his purchase, biding time until the economy improves. That might be the most cost-effective strategy, but it might be the worst outcome for Las Vegas because it would add to its recession-fueled blight. Across Las Vegas Boulevard, the former site of the New Frontier and the future site of the Echelon resort sit vacant, gathering tumbleweeds.
And yet, there’s an argument to be made against opening new hotel rooms. Fewer resorts could be good for Las Vegas because it would mean less competition for visitors.
Icahn, who gives few interviews, isn’t talking about his plans for Fontainebleau.
But his biggest coup in the casino industry might shed some light on his thinking.
Icahn gained control of the Stratosphere in 1998 after a well-timed purchase of the property’s bonds at fire-sale prices, which enabled him to take over the property in bankruptcy. With an initial investment of less than $100 million and another $75 million to add a hotel tower and other amenities, Icahn turned the money-losing Stratosphere into a profitable resort that benefited from a boom in tourism lasting nearly a decade.
Icahn sold the Stratosphere and a group of other casinos to a group of Goldman Sachs real estate funds at the peak of the real estate market, making close to $1 billion on the deal.
The late Bob Stupak built the Stratosphere with too much debt and at the tail end of a string of resort openings in Las Vegas. Critics said it wasn’t a game-changing property but an also-ran in a dicey part of town north of Sahara Avenue. After Icahn bought and expanded the property, the Stratosphere gained a reputation as a casino that offered a good value for the money — a step above some of the older, more run-down properties but less expensive than high-end megaresorts and others that had undergone pricey upgrades.
With lower and middle classes flocking to Las Vegas during boom years, Stratosphere was in the right place at the right time.
Perhaps Icahn wants to create a mid-market resort out of Fontainebleau — a strategy that might appeal to bargain-hunting tourists soured on fancy hotels. The property might complement the nine casinos Icahn is acquiring as part of Tropicana Entertainment, which includes the MontBleu resort in Stateline, Tropicana Express in Laughlin and Tropicana resort in Atlantic City. (The Tropicana in Las Vegas, acquired by another buyer out of bankruptcy, wasn’t part of the deal.)
Or perhaps Icahn is bluffing.
In one sense, he has shown his hand. Icahn has gone where other investors have feared to tread — making a fortune on the business missteps of others.
He’s snapping up the Tropicana chain for $200 million — $800 million less than what it was expected to fetch during the boom economy.
Fontainebleau’s developers sunk $2 billion into the property — a mostly finished structure with incomplete interiors. But that was money spent in another era.
While $156 million sounds like a steal, it might still be too much for others — without Icahn’s knack for timing — to stomach.
Buy it, buy the name "Stardust" from Boyd Group, and change the LV Strip back to a place for the middle class can go for a reasonable price.
He can save $$$ if he has it all planned before he builds it unlike the other resorts on the Strip. Open it in 2012 and the U.S. economy will be rebounding majorly(maybe not Vegas's though).It will probably make some older casino's close, but that could be a good thing!
When CI had the Strat i loved the place. Great value, great price.
Las Vegas, Nevada, watch out carefully: Most casinos/hotels have now a new policy: On top of each room reservation , they add this ridiculous "Resort Fee". What's that resort fee all about? Is it the response to the airlines charging for each luggage and very soon also for each cabin luggage? And for using the restroom and 2 dollars for bottle of water, inflight? And now the casinos decided to rob the tourists blind by adding halfway hidden extra fees, thus giving them a little extra edge over the player?
Don't get lost in the shuffle, Las Vegas! Things are not what they used to be 5 years ago. More and more super resorts are opening up world-wide. Most places in the world have cleaner water and swimming pools and sunshine can be found elsewhere. Arrogancy and greed may back-fire some day, if it doesn't back-fire already...
To make something clear: From what I learned, Americans are very picky customers as it comes to buy and return electronic equipment or clothings. Nowhere else in the world you see more and bigger "customer service counters" where people bring back the stuff they thought they need but decided otherwise. That's a fact.
And now the story about the Resort amenity fee seems to be taking over most resorts in Las Vegas. In additional order to "protect" the room rate and keep it at a certain level, the casinos decided to close floors or entire towers. By reducing the offer, demand is willing to pay a bigger price...up to a certain degree....
Watch out carefully, Las Vegas, as you are squeezing the lemon now. Vegas citizens can't take all bargains for grabs unless somebody else is making up for it. If you don't get the amount of tourists needed to fill the cash registers of the casinos, then you will not get enough dining and entertainment specials in future.
Therefore, dear hotel marketing managers, please make sure you are not pushing it too far this time. A lot of people don't go to Vegas anymore, just because they realized what's going on, a long time ago....
From Switzerland
in summary: To the reader who did not get the message yet:
We all know how Vegas locals think of the tourists. To most of them, a tourist is nothing else but a walking wallet that needs to be deposited in the valley. A winning poker player tourist, that's something that needs to be prohibited. Money may visit this guys pockets, but needs to stay in the valley. Perhaps that's how most conservative people think. But keep this here in mind: Not all tourists are stupid. To charge 7.50 or 11.99 or 15 usd "Resort Fee" may be something that a tourist may laugh about at first glance. And he may pay it with a smile, but this doesn't mean he's plain stupid. Once back home when checking his credit card bill an thinking about, he might realize what this resort fee is all about. And he may tell it to his friends, who will tell to their friends, like a chain reaction. Very soon the impression comes up that Vegas is angle shooting at the few tourists that still keep returning to Vegas. But by then it may be too late already.
People pick their options today, as they always did. But selection has become bigger and bigger, there's a much bigger offer around the world today, in other words: More competition, and that's something that needs to be taken into consideration when you will think of new ways to charge the visitors. Her's an idea: How about charging 1 dollar for parking? Parking administrational security resort fee? How is that? 1 dollar per day? But only for the people with rental cars. A special park , guarded with a pseudo security guy in front, only for people with rental cars, and they must pay 1 dollar per day/visit. How is that? You may get some extra profit this way perhaps. But tips are extra.
Boris;
You are very quickly becoming another rejco with your ability to turn every story into your personal vendetta against resort fees and tipping. Try to stay focussed on the story at hand.
BorisR
I love paying resort fees! I think most people do, except you.
Charge me resort $29.50 day. Great!
+ $9.00 parking fee. No problem
+ $11.00 telephone fee. Great!
+ $16.00 Pool Fee. Easy
+ $4.00 per coke fee. Super
+ $19.00 internet fee. Great
+ $21.00 blackjack table cleaning fee. Im easy, just put it on my tab
Perhaps if Carl buys this casino, he can rename it:
If ICan,youcanhitsnakeeyes
Boris is wrong about resort fees starting after baggage fees. Resorts started charging these fees long before the airlines. Maybe not in Las Vegas but in many other places.
boomer, I absolutely like your lifestyle attitude )
You're the kind of person Las Vegas loves :)
By the way, I watched the documentary on Super Casino Macau, how they built the Venetian Macau. It's even bigger than the Venetian Las Vegas, and it's hurricane proof. 15,000 workers at the peak hours when there was time hurry. Unbelievable. Even Adelson was there to check if everything was ok and construction on schedule.
Adelson is probably one of the few geniuses on this planet who understands that Vegas's glorious times are over. That's why he expanded his business to overseas, followed by Steve Wynn and MGM Mirage. They all want a piece of the new cake from the Chinese market. And they know why.
Vegas would be full of profitable casinos, with or without this stupid resort amenity fee (hidden casino rake), if there weren't so many casinos. Close half of them, the old ones, leave the new ones open, and Vegas is a town full of action and happy employees again.
You can put 1 supermarket in a suburbian area, and it will be ok to feed the citizen, making big business. Put another one, and another one, and another mall and another outlet and a super super supermaket next to each other, and as a result you get Vegas Strip conditions.....
Boomer, I will be in Vegas in April. Do you comp me for a few nights at the Wynn? I promise to play with you some 1-3 no limit, but it's gotta be a ring game :)))))
Greetings from Switzerland
hermit, the US government also gave its approval to charge all US immigrants a 10 dollar fee for visiting the U.S. That's a sweet welcome, isn't it? Something like a "bonus tourist tax". After all, we fill out these stupid forms, must answer stupid questions, and smile, give our finger print upon immigration and have us photographed. And now there's also a 10 dollar fee for this "entertainment program". Do you think that's funny? I think not. And I am definetely not the only one. Check your visitor figures of the past 5 to 10 years. The only reason why they're not dropping too fast is because the us dollar is getting more and more worthless, and therefore making it interesting visiting. However, they say the US currency might drop by another 20 per cent before the final and complete collaps, which might happen in the next 10 to 15 years if things continue as they do. So, by then Lake Mead water will be all used up and Vegas will probably shrink again. Maybe it's the way it's supposed to be, maybe it's our destiny that we have seen peaks and lows in our lives. I just think that the currend tendency is not so good to make Vegas a real attractive tourist destination. The good bargains are disappearing, and the fees are going up.
More ridiculous comments from the loud mouth from Europe......hilarious.
I wouldn't bet against Icahn. He may be hated, but the guy is a shrewd investor and is rarely wrong. He'll make money on this deal come hell or high water.
S711
Boris
you make many good points. most of the bozos here voted for the the 'D' party. the dollar is sliding and the blacks and muslims are feeding at the trough. you Swiss were smart to see thru the muslim takeover of Euroland and limit them.
BorisR,
You are becoming as bad as most Americans these days.
You can not stay on subject matter with your posting. I guess it is something about a short attention span and feeling that if you state the same thing over and over again it must be true.
You do nothing but bang on Vegas. Why are you bothering to come here since you hate this town so much?
Boris I just found out Argentina is chargin me a 130 dollar tax to enter the country I also paid more than ten in China, Costa Rica, and Canada. What would Switzerland charge an American? U.S. seems kinda like a bargain.
stayed at orleans and was nice not to have paper on my doorstep every morning like stations does. didn;t have to pay a dime for room even though we're not high rollers[stayed a week]. stupid visitors stay on strip. this bozo ichan won't do a thing for this property. you need another overpriced joint on the strip like a hole in the head. they don't get a penny from my families vacation. you may idolize steve wynn but he ruined the strip, not revilitized it. wynn started this catering to rich and gave normal folks a tiger show and ripoff on everything else.
if you enter Switzerland, you don't have to fill out stupid forms, do not have to leave your finger prints and picture in a data base, and you don't have to pay admission to get into the country. The same rules apply to most European countries I know. I don't know about Kenia or Kongo, but Europe is pretty civilized in this regards.
You can let out all the anger you have on me, I don't care. I love Vegas as it used to be. I don't like what I see how it changed but there are still a few things left that I like in this town. And I will keep coming back until I decide otherweise. But I am disappointed to see that the casinos use tricks to take out the tourists by charging resort fees. This strategy can only backfire as people will notice that and save the resort fee by not spending on other things.
That's the situation. Think what you want, and face reality.
Greetings from Switzerland
mr icahn is a freakn genius! can only be good for las vegas him getting this property. Eventually it will be finished and profitable with his crew running it. What other companies will end up in bankruptcy with mr icahn calling the shots???? His views on the corporate gangsters running many of these american companies is right on the mark! The gaming industry is in need of people like him to clean house in these bloated corporate monstrosities. The list of "executives" sending memos to each other all day at these companies is a mile long at each property! What do all these guys do all day except have meetings and lunches?????
Boris,
you are right, Vegas has changed for the worse. It used to be a place where you got dressed up and felt that you were in classy, fun places that gave you a good deal. Now Vegas is populated by low-lives that wear work clothes out for the evening.
I have been to your country and must say that if it wasnt so cold in the winter, I might consider moving there.
I've read a lot of BorisR's comments on this website, and I think he's spot on regarding the US's inhospitality. I have a friend, a bartender here in Vegas, and we talked about where he grew up in Pordenone, a northern Italian town. About how he could drive to Austria, Germany and about 8 other countries in maybe 5 hours. No problems, no restrictions, no visas, wave to the border guards and keep on going.
Our country? A disgrace. Need a passport to go to Canada. Hello? All over the loss of 3,000 or so people on 9/11. Christ we've wasted more lives than that on Bozo Bush's Iraq stupidity. And on it goes. Obama is just as bad, almost as stupid.
I don't mind traveling for 15 hours to Australia, and having to carry a passport and a visa. But to travel to Vancouver from Seattle? 30 minutes on a slow day? Yes, you can travel INTO Canada, but you can't get back without a passport. We are a hostile country, and I'm surprised Boris puts up with it. With the ripoff prices and the resort charges, I wouldn't come to Vegas with Boris' money..
the vegas resort fee is a bit of a joke, i remember staying at the sahara in 2004 and they having it then, mgm adds it to every property i think but harrahs don't, i booked my friends into flamingo for march, $40 a night, no resort fee, late check out of 3pm on day of departure, not bad, not bad at all
All of the people that think they know Vegas and live so far away... I suppose of all the rooms that were occupied for New Years By all them fools are now considering to never return Because someone says so.I have heard others say it and they were wrong... OK Mr. Know It All,, tell us how much you pay for fuel as in gasoline,, heating fuel,, booze,, cigarettes,, a pair of Levis or anything American made,, such as a Las Vegas shirt that you proudly wear around town telling everyone you know something about Vegas and it will be the end of this town.. Do you actually believe that the tax you pay is new or would you believe its been around way before you thought of bitching about it.. For someone that doesnt like to pay such tax,, then why come here in the first place... As for the passport deal,, maybe this country would like to at least know who is entering it sometimes,, or maybe you havnt heard that most countries dont think to well of us Americans and would do about anything to get their pic on the front page of the paper... So have you figured out how much more you pay for what you can get here for a lot cheaper than in your country..Is that why you come to Vegas.. Since anywhere else in a major city you would pay out the nose for a room that you can get in vegas for a lot less..Just wondering and you have a nice day ...
Boris,
Try the player's clubs-you can get comped for rooms and meals. As far as resort fees, some MGM properties do not charge a resort fee, you need to shop around. We're staying at a Harrah's property for our next trip and there is no resort fee. There are deals galore in Vegas, people still dress to impress and you can have the best vacation of your life. We always get a good rate on the room.
The rules about getting into the US are for a reason. We're just trying to stay safe.
Charley,
I've driven into Canada 3 times in the last 3 years. Stayed several days each time. Just make sure you top off the tank on the U.S. side. I never paid a fee to get in, Is that something new?
Back on subject, Mr. Ichan didn't grt rich by making bad investments. I wouldn't bet against him. 10 years from now (maybe 5) the story will be how he made hundreds of millions or more buying low and selling high.
asleep, a shirt made in usa, guess you haven't looked at label
April12, I will stay in Vegas for 4 weeks, not just 3 days. I wouldn't mind paying 80 or 100 dollars a night if I'd stay but for the weekend. If you stay for a month, believe me, room resort fee (highway bonus rake) matters unless you come with 100,000 usd for gaming and decide to spend 5000 dollars on room/food/rental car.
I know that most hotel rooms world wide are higher and offer much less. That's a very good point. And many hotels even don't have a swimming pool. In Zurich, for instance, you easily pay 140 dollars per night for a crappy room. At the Zurich airport, a newly opened hotel for overnight stays costs around 350-400 dollars per night. That's something I couldn't afford. But there are many rich people who pay for that.
In Miami, I think the room rates are a bit higher than in Vegas. But people go to Vegas for gambling and not for sitting at the swimming pool all day and in the evening going to see the movies.
Unfortunately I notice a high number of tourists with beer cans in one hand and a digital camera in the other hand, toddling along on the Strip, visiting one hotel after the other, mostly in groups, halfway-drunk, crying, dressed-up like idiots, short pants, t-shirt, sunglasses and tennis boots. They don't look like gamblers to me, but rather to fun seekers. If that's what Vegas is looking for, then they should definetely pay 25 dollars bonus resort fee, as they are basically worthless to the casinos.
@-aprilgirl12: I am member in most of these players clubs, but the good comps can only be earned if you bet at least 25 on b-j and play 3-4 hours. Or you play higher than that, let's say 100 per hand, over 2-3 hours. then you will certainly have it all without paying anything (except the tips, of course). We've gone through this all years ago but I came to the conclusion that you're better've paying your room without the need to play 4 hours at a risky game before you can consider your room and dining tab being picked up by the house. Such a strategy could cost you thousands for a room, and that's not me.
Another good way I found is playing poker in the poker room where you stay and get a discount on the hotel bill as the house is making good money on you while you play. This is especially a good strategy on the weekends when the casinos decide to jack-up the hotel rates by 100 per cent or more.
Well, let's see how things look like. Due to some heavy baccarat players, the Strip posted a little up-swing in revenues lately. Perhaps this can keep up for a while so everybody stops whining and complaining......me included :)
Greetings from Switzerland
My prediction is that the Fountainbleu will be a huge success.
Boris, Vegas is still the best vacation destination in the US. It would be costly to stay in Miami or any resort area for an entire month but you can find deals if you look in Vegas.
Dollar for dollar, the hotel rooms are better, the gyms and spas are beautiful, the cirque shows are fantastic, the pool scene is awesome, the clubs are happening, shopping opportunities abound and most people are civil and appropriate.
Miami has its share of half-drunks wandering the sidewalks and beaches too, what vacation destination doesn't?
In a perfect world, it would be so so nice if Vegas would eliminate the smoking in casinos and do away with the sidewalk porn card vendors, and also if they would improve pedestrian safety, maybe even close the strip to auto traffic and only allow pedestrian traffic on the strip.
It doesn't matter to me what restaurants the Fountainebleau has as long as they have one or two in a medium price range.
Another great thing about Vegas is the wide variety of excellent resturants all within a few miles walking distance. And the fact that you can walk to everything or choose to ride the duece or the monorail is great. In a perfect world, they would price the meals in line with the average city.
You will have hell to pay if you walk out of the restaurant with your drink in Florida, let alone out onto the sidewalk or into another establishment. One more reason we always choose Vegas. We got tired of the no alcohol on the beach rule. Not that we have to drink all the time but a vacation without a margarita is like a casino without a slot machine.
We stay for a week at a time and it is never boring in Vegas.
Aprilgirl12 - It is useless to try and talk to BorisR about these things. He is so negative on Vegas it is ridiculous. I welcome your positive spirit to the boards. We are in need of it. I hope your trip to our wonderful city goes well.
S711
Yeah Sinatra, hit me. Hit me harder. And pretend as if the things I mentioned previously arenot exisiting. Fine with me. Look through the purple glasses, perhaps it makes you feel better.
When "The Ho" Casino opened on Industrial Road, I couldn't believe my eyes when just a couple of years later, the entire building was torn down and put into pieces because they started this Echelon craze. Now it's clear that this is Mission Impossible to accomplish.
They cry for jobs...but jobs and only be created if the economy is working again. All the debt loads the people have, they tought their homes would gain in value year after year although the homes were built like puzzle pieces. People kept going to the bank and used their homes as ATM's. How do you want to explain this ? Did it all never happen, or is it not worth mentioning? Is it "normal" to make debts to live in luxury but not pay back the debt???
You must be living in a dream world if you believe that this is not a big problem, Sinatra. Having 3 cars, a big home plus 5 color tvs, wall size, of course, but not paid in full yet. How crazy is that? And now it's payback time. It will take years to get things under control and that's what many people have started working on now. that's why there's less money for speding around and the first thing people cut down is go gambling with money they need otherwise. Which is actually a good thing.
So, Sinatra, is this negative talk....or is it simple realistic view? You make the call, buddy.
Sure, there is some gambling going on, but only by people who can afford gambling. And all the other people, and the people with bottom feeder jobs, and the poor souls that lost their job in the turn-turn, they simply can't go gambling anymore. And this is not only in Las Vegas, but all over the US and eve abroad. It's the new reality we are all facing And that's why things are not what they used to be. Cut and dry.
From Switzerland
BorisR - Negative is negative. Like I've said before, do us in the industry a favor and stay in Switzerland. We like people like April, who enjoy their stay here in Vegas and come back without bashing the city. Sure we have our problems, but so does every city in the world......we don't need some foreigner to point them out and rub salt in our wounds....and not tip our hard working employees.
If you don't like the Resorts Fee, then don't stay at those hotels. We're not the only country in the world that charges that. In Hawaii all of the hotels in Waikiki have a special resorts tax on top of the normal room tax....so what? I still go to Hawaii and plan to pay those fees. BFD.
Don't come here if you don't like it....simple as that. I don't know why you are on a crusade to taint our city. Maybe it's because you're jealous. Your life must be so miserable to be crapping on cities in other countries. I'm glad I'm not you.
S711
More pretty girls will come
Sinatra, I will come to Vegas to take a part of your money :) The Optimum Play machines are my target, and the poker players who believe they can beat all tourists. That's why I will still come, despite all the resort fee crab and everything else that's coming in between.....
Meet me at Bellagio, feel free to sit down at the tables where I am playing then.
See ya there? You've got the balls for that?
From Switzerland
I skimmed through most of these comments since 90% of them had nothing to do with "F-Blue" and most of them were from Boris or about Boris.
Back to F-Blue, it's this simple: Somebody, whether it is one rich person or one rich company with money to burn, is going to try and get F-Blue for 10-cents on the dollar because they know it's going to cost 70-cents on the dollar to finish the place up, IF they've projected the costs correctly.
THEN, whoever thinks they can hold onto this F-BOMB through the next 10-years before people have disposable income will attempt to put in a bid. Anybody who thinks this place can be flipped or re-sold before 2020 is going to lose their shirt.
This project isn't an "ugly duckling", it's a train wreck. Nobody wants to pick this carnage apart. It's debt loaded, incomplete, and the market is saturated with casinos & condos.
I've been drinking all day watching football and I wouldn't touch this thing if you gave it to me free & clear. It's a mess. There is optimism and realism. Realism says that F-Blue isn't going to happen no matter how you spin it, or whoever thinks they can own it long term.
You want to prove me wrong? Pony up the money and buy F-Blue. Even if you get it for a few pennies on the dollar initially, you'll get burned when you wind up spending $1.25 for $1.00. I'm not saying I've got a crystal ball, I'm just looking down the road and looking around saying this isn't "getting in when the getting is good" at all...
When Phil Ruffin bought T.I. for 50-cents on the dollar THAT was a deal. Anybody who gets in with F-Blue will eventually spend $1.25 for $1.00 and that is bad business anyway you slice it. Nuff 'said. NEXT!
formervegas-- your right what was I thinking...
Boris Boris Boris,, do not tell me that the HO you are reffering to is the Westward HO that you think was there for a couple of years and tore down...If it is then you should know that the HO was there for many years and it was tore down to make room for the Echolon Place that is half done... Anyways I guess you dont know about Vegas as much as I figured,, and when are you at Bellagio,, I would like to feel what affect swiss money has on my hand...
From VEGAS
alseepatawheel, no , that was the Westward Ho you mention. There was another one, called "The Ho", a sister casino on Industrial, with a little cas station , a little sports book, a complete casino, without hotel rooms, though. I wished I still had the pictures I took when it opened. To my biggest suprise just a couple of months after being in operation, they decided to close it and make room for the Echelon. Of course, together with the origininal Westward Ho.
Check with other locals who live nearby or work on Industrial Road. They will confirm that there was this new casino that had an extremely short life because of this Mission Impossible , the Echelon pipe dream.
Greetings from Switzerland
I would rather stay at the Fountainebleau than an older hotel as long as they offer a fair rate. Bring back the lower hotel rates and Vegas will see the crowds in the casinos again. Either way they make their money but the guest gets to have fun spending it.
The economy cannot be blamed on Vegas. And yes, it will re-bound. Vegas might have been hit last but my bet is they recover first.
Boris, there is no point in focusing on the negative about a place you cannot wait to return to. If you go around with your cup half empty in life, you are only making yourself suffer.
Hey Boris,
Why don't you try Laughlin, Nevada since you will be here for a month. Laughlin sits on the Colorado River and has approx. 8 hotel/casinos right on the water's edge. The drive is an hour and a half from LV. The room prices average $25.00 midweek and I do not believe they charge a resort fee but have plenty of amenities depending on which property you choose. It is Vegas style casinos at a much slower pace and a lot less people. Prime Rib buffets and such run approx. $14.00 per person.
As for Fontainebleau, I wish them luck! Any business which opens in Las Vegas will create jobs, which we are in desperate need with so many layoffs and such.
Interested2000
Thanks for your input. I know Laughlin very well. Usually I spend 3-4 nights down there , each time I come to Vegas. It's nice down there. It's warmer and easier, but it's getting boring after a few days. The poker games suck but the town itself is ok.
I have never been to Reno yet, but was thinking of driving up. But then again, an 8 hour drive, is it worth it? I have also seen Mesquite but heard that they closed some casinos, so they must be really suffering.
I like the locals places , such as South Point, Red Rock, Aliante, Sunset Station, Santa Fe, and that's where I will usually stay. I stay away from the Strip for the reasons mentioned. The El Cortez is another one of my personal favorites. I don't blame the skill of the dealers there, and I hope Sinatra is reading this, too: I am not always and only critizing things, the El Cortez is definetely one of the top locations for the budget player and is still offering a lot of "quality". Good videopoker,friendly customer service, but unfortunetely quite inexperienced dealers, which is ok, as I play videopoker and live poker. I am just a bit disappointed about this resort fee shid but I will not whine around if I come to Vegas this spring and donate some cash to your town :)
From Switzerland
The Skyline casino and the Poker Palace are places with good food specials. Late night steaks can be found in many casinos. 2-for-1 coupons are still available. In summary: You have to scale down but bargains can still be found.
Boris
I agree with you on alot of your comments.You must realize one thing.We may comment about all the resort fees and over pricing but one thing I have noticed is that some readers who comment on here are not in touch with reality especially Sinatra711.That guy has no clue.Vegas was built on value,or big bang for your buck.Today is not the case everyone sits around crying about the severe economic turn down here in Las Vegas but does not want to go out and make a difference.
When City Center was in trouble our state and local politicians jumped in and helped by talking with the lenders.When Fountain Bleau went into trouble the state and local politicians turned their heads.
This is because Turnberry is an outside company not in bed with the politicians.
This economy here needs some positive news Fountain Bleau as a mid range Mega resort would be good for Las Vegas and we need the construction to start back up.The casins here need to fill every hotel room posible and that includes the low end casinos like the Sahara Riviera Straosphere and so fourth.
There are so many promotions that the resorts and casinos could offer it is ridiculas like book a trip to stay at our hotel for 3 nights get one night free a the current rate they offering.Or stay at our hotel for 4 nights and recieve 50.00 in free gamming play.Stay at our hotel and the lunch buffet is free for two each day.
Comps for comming is what I saying!!! You will draw more people to Vegas which creates jobs along with const. on Fountain Bleau and a few other stalled projects and Las Vegas is on the beging edge of conomic recovery.
What will happen is Icahn will buy Fountain Bleau and probably slowly start it back up and the Mega Resorts and other strip casinos will poder on what to do.
Bad thing about these corperate big shots is they can crunch numbers but they have no creativity in marketing.I have made a greaat living buy giving my consumer a great value for their hard earned buck and my margins were low my bottom line was huge because of volumn, high turn over did not sit on my product just moved it and then moved more and more and more.
Roll the guest in give them a great time and then roll the next in
Change the odds on the bj tables loosen slots and treat them like kings and queens andthey will tell their friends and come back themselves
Sinatra711 can you get the picture bozo we need to be hauling them in and out asfast as we can and right now the consumer is looking for value and Vegas has none right now
I've just read an outside bidder named Luke Brugnara is willing to offer a bid of 200 million for the bleau! It the past his History of Tax evasion follows him. I really hope the Nevada Gameing Commission will look at this guy reputation and give him serious consideration not to let him into Las Vegas!In 2008 the Federal Grand Jury in San Francisco indicted this guy for 45 million in back taxes. If they wouldn't have cought him he wouldn't have paid! This isn't the kind of person we don't need here in Las Vegas. This reminds me of the Mafia days of old, keep this guy out, let Ichan finish it and go on it's way!!!
rodtig,
finally somebody who is not critizing my critics :) Thank you. However, I have something to throw in as I believe things are not as simple as they perhaps used to be in the early 80s or so.
The casinos that "ate up" the other casinos and are now trying to make it are much much bigger and most of them are built on debt. Perhaps in the 60s and 70s the money needed to build a casino came from anywhere nobody knows....but today, it's got to be declared and taxed money. And the big corporations that took the money from funding it throuh IPO's or by issuing bonds are under different conditions. Plus, the people have become a bit smarter over the past 20 years. The money borrowed to build these casino costs interest. And this is the extra rake the casinos have to pay in order to make other people pay. Tough proposition, in my eyes.
Remember the time when nobody really knew about counting on black jack ? And the same about videopoker when there was no training software available and some very few smart players figured out the difference between a low progressive and a hot jackpot?
Today, many things have changed and I don't think that giving out freebies like crazy would generate enough money to compensate that. The super promotions there were given out by Stupak's Vegas World marketeer atracted enough players and they obviously gambled enough. By simplying giving out free rooms and free buffets today it probably doesn't mean people would play their share on tight slot machines. Any why is that? I believe that the main problem is, like I said, people have smartened up and do not throw away their many as they used to 20 years ago. Meanwhile almost everybody knows that 6:5 on b-j is a terrible change of odds and if there are not enough double-deck games available with good rules, people simply don't play at all anymore. Same for videopoker. And that could be a part of the problem. The casinos are trying to make up for that by selling "cheap" rooms , and attach semi-disguised this unfair resort fee and other strategies. And then people complain about. Some still keep coming, but some don't show up in Vegas anymore. Anybody's surprised about it? I am not.
Anyway, when I come to Vegas, I always have a rental car as I learned that there are so many locals casinos that are much more attractive than these super sized casinos that actually offer nothing but a big image of a super casino. In the end, it's everyone's choice how he wants to spend his money. The question comes up: Are there enough tourists available that don't care about 6:5 b-j, tight slots , tight videopoker with poor paytables, and resort fees? If so, then the Fountain Bleau should definetely hurry up and build another tight casino. Perhaps they get lucky.
From Switzerland
I hope he finishes it as a nice medium/upper medium class hotel.
"Outfitting the property on the cheap and filling it with chains like Cheesecake Factory and Outback Steakhouse, while nice restaurants, wasn't going to do it for Penn."
When is someone going to admit that LV has enough ultra-high end restaurants? Outback and Cheesecake are far from dumps.
I love Las Vegas and I could wait for my next visit. I've been visiting your great city since 2000. Ok, I didn't lived the old time Vegas everyone talks about, but few stays at the Riviera and the great Stardust were enough for a glipse of that time.
Regarding the resort fees, there are more. I stayed at the Excalibur
last week, for the CES 2010 show. I bought several electronic gadgets in Amazon and other online retailers and sent the packages to the hotel. They charged US$ 11.00 for each package received, as "business center fee". What a shame... I spent 500 bucks at the tables, ok, it's not a big sum, but above the average Vegas visitor, and I had to pay for delivered packages. And they didn't delivered the packages to my room, as Disney Resorts (without charges).
Julio, from Brazil
I have no idea why Excaliber had to charge for a delivery fee, it seems they could give the tourist a little break.
I wouldn't mind an Outback or Cheesecake factory, the only thing is when you are on vacation it is nice to go to a non-chain restuarant, one that you never get to go to. And while it is a great mid-price range chain in the average city, what will the Outback prices rise to in LV? Starbucks and the fast food restaurants charge twice as much in LV. Why? Becuase they can is not going to help the city bounce back. They need to keep the food and hotel rooms at a low price so people don't mind spending in the casinos.
MGM gave a good deal on the room and they treated us as if they were happy to see us. We didn't have any special deliveries but no resort fees either.
I also noticed the "Starbucks phenomenon" while in Vegas. Example: the Starbucks inside of the MGM Grand or at the T.I. charge about 30-40 per cent more for a simple coffee than you get to pay at the Santa Fe Station Starbucks. And even the Santa Fe Starbucks is not that cheap. I found much cheaper Starbucks at other places in Las Vegas. Example: There is a little Starbucks inside of the Bank of America Building in Downtown. Of course it's actually for the employees, but nobody ever asked me if I work there and there's no sign on the door that says..."Non tourists only !!!". That Starbucks is very friendly and really much cheaper than for instance the Golden Nugget super-charged Starbucks.
I know that Americans say that Europeans' coffee is too strong and that they rather like to drink the watery liquid they call coffee. To Europeans, this kind of coffee is nothing they would enjoy. It seems to us that the restaurants run 10x the regular dose of water through the coffee filter before replacing it or do not know how much coffee powder is to be used :( So much about it. And I am glad when I see a Starbucks or its sister company anywhere. Good stuff there, and nice concept. But please be realistic about the pricing and most of all....use a competitive pricing level, please.
From Switzerland