The economy:
Rust Belt, Las Vegas comparison premature — even with gaming in peril
Fri, Jan 1, 2010 (3 a.m.)
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- Lessons Las Vegas can learn from the Rust Belt (10-11-09)
- More Nevadans will need help as economic storm worsens (9-27-2009)
- Nevada's jobless rate could hit 17 percent (9-25-2009)
- The potential for prosperity in Las Vegas (9-9-2009)
- Experts: Despite downturn, Las Vegas has hope (9-8-2009)
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Las Vegas may have more in common with Pittsburgh and Detroit than many people realize, says Mary Riddel, a UNLV economist and the interim director of the Center for Business and Economic Research.
Riddel, who helped prepare a report for Las Vegas’ 2010 economic outlook, says even with the deep recession Southern Nevada is in, it’s premature to compare the decline to that in Rust Belt cities that have suffered for decades. But Las Vegas is like one-industry cities such as Detroit is to autos and Pittsburgh was to steel manufacturing.
For Las Vegas, the gaming industry is in peril, Riddel says.
“Some would say that tourism will recover, but most analysts agree that the massive expansion on the Strip cannot be successfully repeated,” says Riddel, who adds that no matter the forecast for demand, the Strip is overbuilt. “Clearly, the engine of growth Southern Nevada has enjoyed for so long has run out of gas.”
The recession should prompt people to look to the future and ask what direction should Las Vegas take, Riddel says. Economic diversification has become more important than ever, she adds.
“Diversifying an economy is easier said than done,” Riddel says. “Others have tried and failed where some have succeeded.”
Riddel says she’s worried the Las Vegas economy will be hampered in its recovery because it will have an excess number of rooms.
“The gaming sector is unlikely to have another boom like it has for the past few decades,” Riddel says.
That has massive ramifications because that depresses the construction industry, which has been so important to the economy, she says.
Pittsburgh would be a good model to look to make any transition, Riddel says. When Pittsburgh faced stiff competition from steel manufacturers around the world, the city was forced to change its focus, and it did.
It became a center of exporting steel technology, creating high-income jobs. It invested in its downtown, and today is behind only Chicago and New York City in its number of corporate headquarters.
“Let’s be cautious in talking about Las Vegas,” Riddel says. “Our story hasn’t played out yet, but we are in decline. In my assessment, when we look at the data, we are at the crossroads. What we need is new industry.
“The idea is that we can learn from Detroit and Pittsburgh. We need to look at what resources we have that we can do better and cheaper than other places, and those are the industries we want to go after.”
One way is to start investing in people and higher education because cities and states with the lowest education levels have suffered the worst during the recession, Riddel says. Cities like Denver that are more highly educated have fared much better, she adds.
Riddel isn’t expecting any recovery until 2011 and even that will be modest. It will be several years before the city returns to the level it had two to three years ago, she says.
“I am very worried about where we are going,” Riddel says. “We have taxable sales that are down two years in a row and expected to be down again. We are concentrated on retail trade and gaming as our sources of tax revenue. Unless we diversify, we are going to have real problems in the future. Unless, we are willing to cut our state budgets much more, we need to have some diversity in industry.”
Forecast
Don’t look for a construction boom anytime soon in Las Vegas given the excess in homes and commercial buildings, Riddel says. One count had more than 15,000 homes, apartments and condominiums without prospective buyers or renters, she says.
The Center for Business and Economic Research expects the number of housing-unit permits in 2010 will fall 0.1 percent and increase a dismal 1.5 percent in 2011.
The concern is that prices, which have started to stabilize, are in danger of falling again, Riddel says. The reason is that a homebuyer tax credit artificially inflates prices and when the program ends in 2010, prices might decline again, she says.
Riddel says she expects another wave of foreclosures because many homeowners haven’t been making their payments, and banks haven’t moved against them because they have a backlog. She said banks have no incentive to put every foreclosure on the market right away to further depress prices.
When prices fell in California in past downturns, it took eight to 10 years for them to rebound, and Las Vegas may face that timeline or even longer because prices fell so far, Riddel says.
“I think it is going to be a long time if ever before we see prices like we did in 2006,” Riddel says. “It will take a long time for the market to recover from a bubble such as this.”
Discussion: 26 comments so far…
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A very insightful article. The 8-10 year period to rebound from our previous highs may be overly optimistic. Why? Because unless we vastly improve our pathetic public school system, and subsequently stop raising tuition and charges for our few colleges and universities, we have no reason to expect that very many companies will relocate or start up here.
With gaming expanding all over the country, revenues here can only decline. So our vast resource of cocktail waitresses and valet parkers are in big trouble. Imagine trying to retrain drop outs whose greatest accomplishments were having phony 36 Double D's or having a great head of hair?
The cities that have suffered the least in this recession are the ones that either have strong educational systems, or ones that tolerate pollution in their back yards. Education produces smart, successful people, pollution produces lots of jobs. Can you say Boston and Houston?
very good article i wish our "fine" mayor can read this article. even our government should read this. this goverment will not learn from this. this must diversify or this city not exist. it will be another desert town
"I think it is going to be a long time if ever before we see prices like we did in 2006," Riddel says. "It will take a long time for the market to recover from a bubble such as this."
___________________
First off, the RJ ran this story like 3 weeks ago. Secondly, we should never hope for a 2006 scenario again, just pure unadulterated greed.
FOR ONCE - A REAL ARTICLE THAT TELLS IT LIKE IT IS. To retrain our workers - taking a valet, that dropped out of school, so he could make $70k a yr is going to be tough. Why? You can retrain someone when there is a reason to retrain. Whats the reason? To retrain him again as a valet? ?There's no other industry to retrain for. Until that happens, you can retrain him, so he can move out of state. And as for the people with 36DDD's, thats the sex industry, if they left, we would loose another 100k in population. What can we retrain them for? How to give us better (bleep bleep) ??
We need the first company to move here and make a go of it. But Vegas is in the middle of now-where. Would a company transport materials from LA harbor or San Fran, to LV to make their product and then transport them back? I dont think so, it cost prohibited. We would have to be so much cheaper in business expenses for it to work - taxes, salaries, goods, etc..
As for the "new" train? that will bring people here, but again put us in a false sense of "recovery" until the next depression. And building the train, will come from company technology outside the US and as for the actual workers installing the tracks and everything else - well, you know where they will come from.
Just things to think about and to move us forward, cause if we don't, we WILL be another Detroit, with $20k value housing..
I dont know about comparing Pittsburgh with Detroit or even Vegas. Detroit has been on a fast decline since the early 1960's when the big 3 decided to move all their plants to the suburbs forcing what many call "white flight". Pittsburgh still has many steel making plants operating, not like the 1970's or early 80's but they still have some large operations.
When you talk housing look at the areas that are suffering from the forecloser crisis and you will see what many called boom areas. Florida (south Florida) Nevada, Arizona etc. What do most of these places have nice weather and tourism, no manufacturing, no real stable industry to speak of. Gambling, nice beaches and on/off construction is not stable.
Pittsburgh and other areas of the northeast have survived the recession by depending on year round industries like healthcare, education and banking/financial. I lived in South Florida for sometime in the 1980's and predicted a bad situation that did occur in 1989 (savings and loan) crisis, overbuilding, poor pay, no longterm industry to depend on. We moved back north and found stable work that we have benefited from for the last 20 years.
This country was ruined in 1981 when our governement and the people did not want anything manufactured in this country. They wanted cheap they wanted lower prices and they wanted no union involvement in some cases. Blue jeans, underwear, cars, electronics, appliances, furniture, household items, auto parts etc, 79% of which are now made out of this country because we wanted cheap. How many people now work for Walmart and other service industries that pay crap. People tried and still are trying to live like kings on wages that dont come close to paying even the basic bills.
p
In addition to competition from legalized gaming in 48 other states, Vegas also faces a bigger threat from online and mobile phone gaming. Most of the world cannot afford a trip to Vegas, but there are 4 billion cell phones in the world. Online casinos don't have the infrastructure, construction debt, and labor costs of land casinos.
Mayor Goodman is probably not the man to diversify the economy.
Instead of trying to atrract high-maintenance families, with the required investments in expensive schools, low crime, good healthcare, Vegas should market its unique business proposition:
With zero income or corporate taxes, modern infrastructure, an international airport, low/falling rents, cheap labor, and low incorporation fees, Vegas has potential to attract corporate HQs and home-business professionals.
The available hotel rooms, entertainment, and proximity to conventions would reduce the costs of hosting clients.
I'm personally looking to rent a cheap luxury Strip apt to run my online business.
Very apropros comparison. Wynn, Adleson, and MGM exported most of these jobs overseas to Macao, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
Then, like Detroit, they decentralized sending more jobs to Mississippi, Louisiana, and about every other state possible including the Indian reservations. Internet gambling is the elephant in the room no one sees....
Then, like Detroit, they ignored their customers and started making a product no one wanted to buy in garish places no one wanted to go to. Their base started buying little casinos instead of those with $250 rooms and $50 meals. In response to this, they built even more garish places still ignoring the base which built Las Bugsy.
Yes, altogether an apropros comparison. But now that the milk is out of the cow and spilled on the barn floor, there is no way to regain it. Like Timbuktu, Las Bugsy will become an archaeological wonder of "What were they thinking?".
The 1700's created a people on the North American continent who found out that if they fought hard enough for their freedoms, they could create a country free with spirit to raise their families and produce a government "of the people for the people". This new government was created to form a perfect union and was to be trusted by the same people that built it.
As the years passed this government found that the more the citizens trusted them they could take and do what they wanted as no one would stand up for their rights that in the beginning cost us so many lives to get.
We have lost this drive and spirit that we once had by entrusting in our elected leaders to do their jobs to protect, serve and make the proper decisions to keep our Nation safe and as great as our forefathers wanted it to be without keeping an eye on them.
Secrecy, total greed and power has taught our leaders that they can lie to us and get away
with it. By the time it takes us to find out about their lies and that the trust that we have given to them to better our country and our lives has been broken, it is too late and there isn't anything we can do but live with the self serving, greedy decisions they have made.
We have our minds and our voices. We can send e-mails or write letters. We can make phone calls to let our elected representatives know that we have not been happy at all with their leadership for quite some time now. It is time for them to change their ways or we will make the change ourselves. If we don't get off our butts and let them know what we demand from their leadership, we have not only let ourselves down, but we will have let our forefathers down. They trusted in us to keep this great nation alive and going forward, so the patriots' lives that have been lost in building what we have built up to this point, will have never been lost in vain.
A free United States of America is what we must provide and entrust to our future generations, as our forefathers so depended on us.
What this boils down to is
just over TEN years of
PHONY LOANS from REAL ESTATE, MORTGAGE LOAN,
BANKING,CONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPER
SCAMMERS
made to people
who were nearly EXTREME RISKS from the start
coupled with
"DONATIONS" to
CORRUPTED POLITICOS
who RAN COVER for THEIR "PALS"
(many of whom are still in office and who may go to jail with this current Federal Investigation).
Comparison to Pittsburgh is a gross error.
In Pittsburgh the people are HONEST and are
NOT CHEATS, ILLEGAL ALIENS, or FELONS.
(If I lived in Pittsburgh, with a SIX time World Championship Football Team, I would be insulted if I was compared to this no-water corrupted dry hole smack dab in the middle of an illegal-alien infested desert...)
Good choice of wordage wiz
Yeah....right....Gordon. Gambling revenues are NOT down for 26 months in a row, McCarran traffic is NOT down for 20 months in a row, all the gambling houses are NOT in big trouble on their balloons, and Cinderella's coach is due to arrive any minute with Wynn, Aldeson, and MGM pulling it. Whatever....
Hold on a minute. "Insightful, honest", etc.? This article is ridiculous and opens with a silly statement and one that is, at best, misleading. Pittsburgh hasn't "suffered for decades". What decade is this economist looking at? Pittsburgh's current unemployment rate is at 6.3 percent, well below the national average. Here is an article from business week that sums it up nicely.
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/10/...
The only thing accurate about this piece is that Vegas is NOT like Pittsburgh in that Pittsburgh long ago diversified its industries and became one of the most livable cities in America. It long ago shed its "rust belt" reputation, whereas Vegas tops the worst lists for just about everything in the country and its whole economy is poised for collapse as it's dependent on one industry that's in the toilet at the moment.
Oh and Pittsburgh has real colleges that turn out well-educated professionals. Anytime I see a quote from UNLV I just roll my eyes.
Despite the US online gambling ban, the industry has grown from a $6Bn to a $20Bn industry. Many igaming companies are publicly listed on the London Exchange, and there are six-figure jobs on such recruitment sites as bettingjobs.com.
Vegas casinos now generate most of their revenues from non-gaming sources, such as shopping, dining, rooms, and entertainment.
However, shopping and entertainment are highly sensitive to the economy. The US has experienced ZERO net job growth over the past decade.
Having checked out City Center yesterday, the posts of people like GORDON are nonsensical and foolish. Yeh, Fontainebleu and Echelon will be finished in 2010-only if JH Christ is the superintendent and designated saviour.. What is Gordon drinking?
City Center will be an absolute disaster because 99.9% of the people wandering around it yesterday couldn't afford even shoe laces in those way high end stores. All I saw was a latty dah casino, too many rooms and especially condos, and the rip-off stores. What were they thinking? Where is the profit coming from to payoff 8.5 billion? Sure, I want to fly 15 hours from China to lose money on baccarat?
There's a low rent motel directly across the street from CC, and I will bet you dollars on a dime that it will be there when CC declares bankruptcy. Any takers?
Despite the theme of this article, the only action Nevada has done to build for the future is to CUT BACK education. I guess taxes can be made even lower if we just go one step further and end all public education. Given the intellect of our governor, our second senator [who can't even read the bible he claims he follows], this isn't as far-fetched as it seems. Dumb breeds dumber. Since we are now 49th [I think]in education, it's not surprising that we will be the 49th state to have the recession end.
vegas still drawing them in, who they are i do not know; try to find an industry to complement what vegas has. the best i can find is solar energy with water drilling on the side; you might find underground wells large enough to sustain living in the desert.
This is off topic I suppose but I was on a Detroit forum not to long ago that included stills and you tube video of Detroit neighborhoods in decline.
I was saddened to see how bad things really were, yet surprised at how beautiful and interesting the architecture was to look at, even though a lot of it was falling down or burned out.
Except for one old house up on Ann Rd, architecture here in Las Vegas pretty much consists of stucco & chicken wire or Styrofoam blocks down on the strip. How sad.
wizardofOz,
Great post.
I'm trying to sort out which is more discouraging- the poor writing skills of the author of this article, or the variously clueless and barely literate composition of the comments that are here. Let's start with the article itself...
It begins with a statement that runs counter to the title followed by a second sentence that doesn't support the first one, and a third that appears to contradict the second while failing utterly at congruous analogies. In fact, the third sentence is a compositional trainwreck. The article proffers a comparison of two vastly different "Rust Belt" cities with divergent paths, and fails to really explain the differences between the two and offer a "you are here" map analogy to the subject (Las Vegas)- which would have tightened the whole thing up nicely and made sense to the average reader. I'm guessing the author is a product of the Clark County School District and/ or UNLV, ironically proving the article's fairly clear point that in order for the Las Vegas economy to diversify and possibly improve, education is paramount.
For those of you who couldn't sort out the point of this verbal morass (and I'm not one to blame the victim)- the upshot is that Las Vegas is at a crossroads that both Detroit and Pittsburgh once faced. While one succeeded in finding a new role in the economic, social, and cultural spheres (Pittsburgh), the other, faced with a similar situation has done the opposite. Which way will Las Vegas go? This is the "you are here" opportunity the author missed.
As for the comments- "mrability"- obveusly riteing is'nt 1 of thum; "dipstick"- no argument there; "perry161492"- it's called the "shift" key. there's two of them. they make the letters CAPITAL (you too, "dipstick").
"Gordon"- I'll bet you ten to one that the average home price (resale) drops below $100,000 between now and 2012. However, you are right about businesses passing through bankruptcy and shedding debt, which can then be turned around as debt service cascades to more manageable levels through successive owners... but it takes YEARS for that to happen on a much smaller scale. If projects like Echelon, Fountainebleau, and City Center pass into this realm, it will take a decade or more to sort itself out. Take off the glasses, Pollyana and see things in the true, harsh desert sunlight.
Only way out of the hole you're in, Las Vegas- educate yourselves with the best resources you have, then demand and build better. Let go of the easy money fantasy, realize there's more to life than the NFL, UFC, and two-for-one lap dances, replace EVERY SINGLE elected politician you have, and move on.
I do not understand why so many commentators assume that valet, cocktail servers and strippers are uneducated. I work a menial job in Las Vegas, despite holding a masters level degree. Why? It pays double what my degree earning job would. I know many casino workers who hold advanced degrees, but work their "drop-out" job because of better pay and less stress.
Right on Sergio_the_Prophet.
Straight dope for Amerika!
For ONCE the people posting on these forums are having an informed discussion! The points being raised are interesting. I would add, in support of a few posts here, that it is the voting public's responsibility to affect change. If you do not want to go the direction of Flint, Michigan (or Detroit), then you have to make your opinions known in the only real way: voting.
That said, the comparisons are not entirely fair. Pittsburgh has a variety of universities. And UNLV is no Carnegie Mellon. So the next time you criticize UNLV, think of the other times you advocated cutting the university's budget.
Further, I would draw your attention to this real and tangible fact: World Class Scholars have come to UNLV only to leave because of the public disposition toward education here in Las Vegas. UNLV has had opportunities to keep these faculty, but they have not had the resources to do so. You cannot build a world class university without world class support.
And more importantly, you cannot hope to meaningfully diversify the industry in town without a university to supply intellectual resources, eager graduates for high-tech jobs, and new ideas. We've had lower business taxes compared to CA for a long time and still cannot sway technology companies to come. There's no one to hire!
This too shall pass ... And by then all the haters will have whined themselves to another city they can hate.
This article is THE TRUTH PERIOD ! The quicker all those living in denial out there realize this, the quicker reforms and changes will be made to fix the problem..
@DesertFlame-
Read and reread my last paragraph. Then read it again. Then ask yourself if you want to be a forty-five year old cocktail waitress. Your job making you any smarter?
I learn every single day on mine as do many that have put their educations to work. It isn't all about the money. There's more to life than that. Fulfilling, challenging work is what makes better people who forge better societies. Anyone who truly values education angles for a place where they never quit learning. Reminds me of an old PSA catchphrase- "A mind is a terrible thing to waste."
@RPJ-
At the risk of this sailing right over your swollen head- how utterly auto-Darwinian of you.