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Dan Klaich, Nevada System of Higher Education chancellor, talks to UNLV students during a protest of proposed budget cuts Feb. 9.
Sunday, Feb. 21, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Sun Coverage
Dan Klaich faces a huge marketing challenge as chancellor of the Nevada System of Higher Education.
He’s trying to persuade the Legislature to protect public colleges and universities from the worst of the cuts being proposed by Gov. Jim Gibbons, and convince Nevadans that his organization is essential to the state’s future.
At first blush, it wouldn’t seem to be a difficult task. What’s not to appreciate about higher education?
John Immerwahr, a philosophy professor at Pennsylvania’s Villanova University who co-wrote a recent study of Americans’ perceptions of higher education, says there’s plenty of evidence that people see value in an advanced degree.
But ...
“When you start to ask questions about who should pay for it, that’s where the controversy comes in,” says Immerwahr, also a senior research fellow at Public Agenda, a national nonprofit organization. “People see higher education as an individual good — something you need for yourself.”
That’s a familiar refrain to Klaich, and one he refuses to accept.
“Every fiber in my being is absolutely opposed to that philosophy,” Klaich says. “That assumes there is no public good in an educated populace.”
He lays out the facts to support his argument: the more educated the population, the less reliance on social services. Such people are more involved in their communities. And they tend to be more highly paid.
Klaich knows it. He assumes the 63 members of Nevada’s Legislature know it.
But so far, the state’s populace has yet “to embrace the transformative value of higher education in a way that could bubble up to those 63 people,” Klaich says. “That’s partly our fault, and it’s partly a reflection of who we are as a state.”
Although Klaich says he hears from lawmakers that they want to support higher ed, especially going into the special session, he knows there is harsh political reality, as well.
“How can someone expect to get elected and continue to get re-elected to office if they’re not reflecting the underlying values of the electorate?” Klaich says.
Sen. Joyce Woodhouse, D-Henderson, chairwoman of the Legislative Education Committee, said Klaich is effectively pushing his message by defining “the system” as, in fact, thousands of individuals — students, faculty and staff — who will bear the brunt of the fallout.
“We have students counting on us to get their degrees and move ahead with their lives. We have people who have lost their jobs who need access to community college programs to retool their skills,” Woodhouse said. “We’re talking about their future, and our future.”
Nationally, higher education is perceived as a business more worried about the bottom line than about students, and that a better job could be done managing the money it already receives, Immerwahr said. Even as college presidents argue that funding shortages will mean less access and deteriorating quality, “the public isn’t buying that and a lot of legislators aren’t buying that,” Immerwahr says. “They believe higher ed will find a way.”
The system’s funding has been cut by 13.4 percent — $91.3 million — from what was authorized by the Legislature. Klaich has been told by Gibbons to prepare for funding cuts of up to 22 percent on top of that — more than
$110 million. Those figures are likely to change, and could even increase, following the Legislature’s special session this week to address a revenue deficit of $887 million.
The proposed cuts are another blow to an education system that by many measures is struggling:
• Compared with other states, Nevada ranks poorly in high school graduation and dropout rates, college completion rates and overall funding for public education.
• In its most recent report card, the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education gave Nevada dismal marks in key areas including preparation, participation, affordability and completion.
• Nevada ranks 45th in the nation for the percentage of its population (older than 25) who have at least a bachelor’s degree.
For the better part of the decade, Southern Nevada led the nation in population growth, attracting millions of people for relatively well-paying jobs that did not require much more than a high school education. Now, some of the same factors that made the boom so lucrative — such as tourism and construction — are making the bust even more pronounced.
“They were the engines of the growth, and now they’re the brakes,” says Robert Lang, director of Brookings Mountain West, a research and policy initiative partnership between the nonpartisan think tank and UNLV.
Brookings has identified Las Vegas, Phoenix and Boise as three of the most economically troubled metropolitan areas in the nation. At the same time, cities with more educated workforces — such as Denver and Colorado Springs, Colo. — have weathered the recession “significantly better than other Mountain metros on almost every measure,” according to the December Brookings report.
It won’t be easy for Nevada to recast itself, Lang said. But higher education could become a key growth industry, particularly if UNLV builds on its recent successes in expanding its research base.
Green energy, biotechnology and health care are targets in Nevada’s efforts to diversify. To attract those employers, Nevada will need a bigger carrot than a business-friendly tax structure, says Patrick Callan, president of the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, a Washington-based nonpartisan think tank.
When governors travel to other states to recruit businesses, “the talk quickly turns to education,” Callan says. “It used to be low taxes were used to try and persuade employers to relocate and offer good jobs. Now it’s, ‘Do you have people who have the knowledge to do the work we need?’ That means going beyond high school to two- and four-year degrees.”
That doesn’t mean Nevada has to abandon its roots, Callan says.
“Certainly we all hope construction and gaming get back on their feet,” Callan says. “But the new jobs, and the jobs that are going to pay well, are going to come from the knowledge-based industries.”
Numerous states are coming to similar conclusions, including several that appear to be moving more quickly than Nevada.
“It may well be that the places that are a little hungrier are going to succeed more than the ones that wait for it to come to them,” Callan says.
Indeed, it’s a challenge that pits not just state against state, but the nation against the world.
“The whole country is going to have to figure out if we’re ready for the highly competitive global environment,” Callan says. “Americans don’t have the entitlement to most of the good jobs or most of the prosperity. Eight or nine other countries are overtaking us when it comes to college access. We used to be first in every area you could measure.”
And into this fray steps Klaich, who at this point isn’t sure whether he’ll be able to keep open all of higher ed’s doors, let alone diversify its programs and services to meet the challenges that await.
He meets regularly with presidents of the system’s colleges and universities to discuss the latest budget cut estimates and what those numbers might mean for individual campuses. He testifies before legislative committees about the effects of further cuts. He attends town-hall meetings and student-organized protest rallies. And last week he introduced a new page to the higher education system’s Web site, with the biting title “Building a New Nevada — Destroying Dreams, Deferring Futures,” in which students recount the difference higher education has made in their lives and just how much they — and Nevada — stand to lose.
“I’m supposed to be running this system and managing it through this crisis, but everything I’m doing is making the state’s problems worse,” Klaich says.
“We should be producing more graduates ready for high-paying jobs. We should be helping to diversify the state’s economic base. Instead, we’re going the opposite way. The cure is worse than the disease.”
More money is not the cure. Professors should be in the classrooms every day. If there are not enough students to fill those classrooms, eliminate the courses. Students should be chosen as assistants. Campus Police departments are not necessary; Metro is large enough to handle the campus problems. Remove all disruptive students. Unions of any kind should not be allowed in any education facility. Students needing remedial courses should get them from a private source at their own expense. We have already paid for their education. Colleges and Universities are businesses. Run them as such. If t does not perform, close it.
Very poignant article. This is one of the serious issues in sustaining Las Vegas as a city. I noticed very quickly that Las Vegas is culturally quite anti-intellectual. Unfortunately, that translates into a disregard for higher education. Disliking snobs shouldn't affect funding for education.
I agree with the assertion that we cannot rely on the previous economic choices, but we can integrate new industries into our economy. Most of those are going to take citizens with the highly developed set of skills that college provides. One of the prime issues is that the pay for tech jobs is abysmal in Las Vegas, so even when students get engineering, computer science or similar degrees they frequently leave the state for places that appreciate those skills. So we are continually left with a city of cooks, waiters, valets and construction workers, all difficult and honorable jobs, but not requiring or appreciative of education.
I'm not sure that @NoMore quite understands how universities work. Most of those suggestions are pretty silly. I do expect more responses like that though. Within a few posts this will become some weird free market, libertarian debate...
@dhvincent1-I agree with you about health care. But "They have the ability to raise money for their colleges through endowments and raise their tuition." I would change ability to potential. UNLV is pretty poorly endowed for a major state university. I suspect it has a lot to do with the lack of a stationary population that values higher education. I mean we only have two universities!
Raising tuition is a good idea to a certain point, but at what point does college become inaccessible to the majority of the population? How much personal debt should one incur to get an education? And if we as a state and city continue to disregard higher education then aren't we just reinforcing (or even regressing from) the status quo that helped us arrive at our current issues?
The brain drain will continue and las vegas will end up as bad as or worse than Detroit after the car industry took a hit.
I guess it'd be nice to buy a house for 20k though...
@NoMore - Wow, you seem so bitter and defensive? And yet, I bet YOU went to college? (Or, am I giving you too much credit?)
You talk of unions and such. Just goes to show what you DO NOT KNOW. The Nevada System of Higher Education is NOT unionized, no school in the system has a bonafide union, and there is no representation of any kind for those in the system. Period.
Next, let's talk about professors being "in the classroom every day". First, you're assuming a professor is a 3rd grade teacher... Get up, teach some math. Get up, teach some English. Get up, teach some... whatever. That isn't how college works (and so now, I'm thinking perhaps you're angry because you DIDN'T make it in college)? Many professors are lab scientists, researchers and the like. They don't trod down to class, talk for an hour, and then go home. The good professors not only do life-saving research on things YOU might need in the future, like medications, cancers, the air you breath, AND they teach classes, AND they write articles and publish, AND they mentor students, AND on and on. Yes, as in ANY profession, there may be some sucky profs, but they are NOT the majority. And, especially at the Community College level, teaching IS the rule of the day, and MOST instructors are indeed in class EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. Do your homework, man!
"If there's not enough students to fill those classrooms..." Well, once again, you are completely off the mark. Indeed, the OPPOSITE is true. There are FAR more students than there are spaces for them in any given classroom at the schools I attended, and indeed in the colleges (especially CSN) here in Nevada. A class that won't cut it, DOES GET CUT. Again, homework?
You're right about the policing. Schools do need security, clearly (eg - Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc). However, a full-on "police chief" who is pocketing more much more pay than any prof on campus makes, well... that's gotta go. Not necessary, so let's move on from that mumbo-jumbo.
Finally, @ dhvincent1 - is college more important than health care? This, my friend, is a false dichotomy. The question could be reversed, and it's just as ludicrous. Let me give you one point as to why education is AT LEAST as important as health care. The more educated you are, the better your health is (as a general rule), and the better you take care of yourself. The better you take care of yourself, the less you need large quantities of healthcare, and thus, you burden the system less. To recap: SMARTER/EDUCATED=BETTER HEALTH=LOWER COSTS. Check it... http://www.webmd.com/news/20090506/more-...
Depends on who is paying for their degree.
Those who pay for their own education appreciate it more and more than likely will put that degree to good use and be a productive member of society. Just wait and see this next bailout; who will be paying for college loans that aren't paid back?
The ones who've ruined for many are the ones who didn't work for it and everything was given to them on a silver platter. They've succumbed to freeloading policies and blame everyone else for their problems that have occurred in their life, it's a liberal way of life.
Teachers don't care for the most part, they've succumbed to the liberal polices and have no accountability for their classrooms and have enabled the educational system to erode to liberal policies. America can't afford liberal policies in our educational system and what these colleges have produced over the years is just about the most worthless group of young adults.
These graduates jump from job to job, demand instant success, whine and complain about hard work, they want their mommy or daddy, expect the world without working for it, and believe they're entitled to everything for nothing. They're getting exactly what has been boiling over for years, they're just rewards for being little whining cry babies, we're sick and tired of paying for programs that are useless and haven't produced anything meaningful. America was founded upon positive results, not the results the liberal have produced, a cesspool of freeloading whining complaining babies blaming the world for their choices.
Even many parents are in denial, they think their kids are the greatest yet deep down inside they know their kids are worthless lazy young adults but they openly deny what really occurred, they want the taxpayers to pay for their poor parenting choices just to save a buck for themselves. They have what most call, look at me; I'm holier than though, I'm living beyond my means. You know the type, they boast how good their kids are, they think happiness is a material object, they're sucking us dry and we're done paying for it.
Any doubts, your president is the leader of the pack and he blames republicans for what is occurring today, the truth is smacking him in the head, liberals have desecrated America and he's still in denial and blaming everyone but his party.
Colleges should threaten to end their semi-pro football and baseball programs.
Online offshore schools can replace the academic programs of expensive US schools.
Chia University in China has online US professors, and charges $5K for MBAs.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained vulgar language.
Remember, it's easy to make 'em, a lot harder to raise them. If the parent(s) in this desert sh*thole take the lead in their child's education, they will succeed. Otherwise, it's valet and cocktail waitress time.
My best friend here has 3 kids doing great, one with a Millenium scholarship. Where are the parents from? Connecticut and New York. Sorry, stupid is as stupid does. And our day care centers, also known as the Clark County School District, will do nothing to help your dropout kids...
Wow, I put the *s* word with a "Z" in a comment, it gets cut. But putting s-hole in a comment, that's ok? What are we, 5 years old? Really?
So now... let me repost my "comment" to Jackov in a more "appropriate" fashion...
Do you really think any Fortune 500 companies are going to be chomping at the bit for people with MBA's from a no-name, Chinese degree factory? Really? That' really hard to believe...
I agree that university education is wonderful. It is like going from little league (public and high school) with most curricula very standardized so less room for original thinking, up to the big leagues (university) where memorization alone will not permit one to excel, and where creativity can be fostered. University for most who attend is the greatest experience of one's life and expands the mind, the self-image, and the social conscience, not to mention tends to lead to greater lifetime earnings.
However, higher education must also be ready, willing and EAGER to share the burden of the huge government deficits. They of all people should realize that not to share the pain of spending cuts would send entirely the wrong message to the rest of society.
Therefore, Mr. Klaich, I would urge you to embrace the suggested cuts to your budget, not try to weasel out of them by claiming that education trumps all other aspects of society.
I think Klaich brings up some good points. I also know that the cost to go to college has gotten out of hand nationally. It is still pretty cheap in Nevada, and the NSHE has the ability to raise tuition and cut the fat of the organization to offset the funding from the State. State schools are established for the citizens of the State and thus should receive a significant reduction of cost, but at this time until we have a steady stream of tax revenue, we just don't have the money.
Nevadans cannot continue to expect drunk tourists to pay for our services. Nevada needs to grow up and be a big boy state.
You know, higher education is in fact important, yes. But the problem is that it should be important to an individual for the purpose of bettering themselves. Far too often students who go to college don't actually study anything. They just memorize the answers in order to pass their exams and take nothing to heart.
Proof? Take a look at most job postings placed on corporations' web sites. Unless you're talking a job that requires actual critical know-how of a subject, like specific laboratory work, or Accounting, you'll find that employers no longer are interested in candidates having a degree. You can always see this whit those magic little words, "...or equivalent experience."
Employers now know that College Degrees are no longer guarantees that a person who has received one is actually qualified to work in the field that their degree is related too. Many times in the past some college grad gets hired in for a position they're supposed to be able to do. Then as it turns out the person is no where near ready to hit the ground running as they say, and the company has to waste thousands of dollars on training this person in order to bring them up to the level of their peers who were already there and knew how to do the job in the first place. In today's economy the business world can't afford to hire unqualified people. They need employees that are ready to do their job and keep profitability. Most college students don't have any real-world job experience in their field, let alone in the workplace environment to know how to act properly. So in many cases now it's safe to say that a degree can be more of a liability than an advantage.
Let's face the facts. College is unfortunately quickly becoming a dead-end proposition for our country. Not many college degrees are going to deliver a good enough "Return On Investment" for students to even consider enrollment. Sure you have b . etter potential to increase your income, but your disposable income level drops even further because of the loans that you have to pay back. And that's sad that we punish people for continuing their education.
I was lucky to attend CSN,UNLV and the Ohio State University. I have a B.S. in Architecture from Ohio State. The training I received there has been a tremendous resource for me.
To pay for my public education, my parents both worked, I also worked while a student, and I obtained student loans that took many years to pay down.
If I had it to do over, I wouldn't change a thing. I am very happy with the education I received at Ohio State.
One of the primary reasons I transferred to OSU was: in 1984, I could not receive a comparable education in Nevada...this is no longer the case.
CSN, UNLV and UNR have grown into fine schools, and they need to be supported even more now and into the future if we are to succeed as a State.
@education_is_drowning
FYI.. I as speaking about the student unions and the waste of tax dollars allowing them to have a student union building. It should be used for education.
Very simply put, it is neither my responsibility nor do I get any 'public good' for using my portion of tax dollars to pay for someone else's education...education is not any more important than housing, food, clothing, transportation, etc...regardless of my opinion, the fact is there is very little evidence to persuade me that 'public' education provides any value to the general population...actually, there is ever increasing evidence that the entire (unaccountable) public system should be abandoned in favor of an (accountable) all private system...
@RyMan
I have a BS in Chemistry and a MBA in business. There are always cuts that can be made in education that will not affect the quality. When I attended the university, students were used as aides. Professors, not assistants, were always in the classrooms. There was no such thing as remedial courses. You go to a trade school if you do not meet the entrance qualifications.
To "Education is drowning":
No, but Corp America will not be hiring traditional college grads for at least a decade either.
Since individuals can now market their services globally, online grads are better off using their education to make money in their own businesses online (as I do).
If you don't get a background in science, or any professional discipline like law, medicine, etc.. or even engineering, you have wasted your time and my taxes. Colleges are producing idiots at a 70% rate. That's why American business is outsourcing them.
Las Vegas is a gathering place for the country's uneducated Carny's, and we raise Carny's-to-be, right here under the Big-Top!
We are ground zero for just about every societal ill in the United States.
Is there a correlation?
You Betcha!
And Purgatory rather succinctly highlights why We will stay an uneducated Burgh.
NoMore, many professors are in the classroom every day. But how do you define classroom? I teach some of my courses online. If you want me teaching 9-5, that would reduce the hours I spend on my work, and I would love that.
Further, those of us at CSN are not required to do research in our fields, but many of us do because it makes us more aware of what's new--whether it's history, which I teach, or auto technology. We aren't standing in the classroom when we study those things, so there are some lamebrains--and that is what they are--who think we work only when we ARE in the classroom. If that were true, I wouldn't be grading papers at 11 at night, as so many of us do, or reading the latest journals or poring over research material at that hour, as many of us are.
As for running higher education like a business, well, the customer is always right, so everybody gets an A. That IS business thinking, right? Furthermore, which business do you propose we imitate? Enron?
Purgatory, you may think you get no benefit from paying for someone else's education. I guess no one trained in public schools ever came up with a medical advance or made a discovery that improved people's lives. Furthermore, if you don't pay for public education, you will pay more for publicly-run prisons. An overgeneralization, but it really is almost that simple. As to the wisdom of private enterprise ... have you ever heard of AIG?
UNR spends over $30,000 per pupil - that is more than the University of Texas which is considered one of the best research universities in the nation. UNR also spends far more than its regional competitors including the University of Utah which someone on here touted as being so special and Arizona State which Dr. Lang at the Brookings Institution suggested we emulate.
UNLV spends over $16,000 per pupil.
Neither school can graduate half of its students within 6 years.
http://www.writeonnevada.com/2010/02/hig...
It is surely refreshing to read all the sides of this critical discussion. I am glad so many care.
I am a native Las Vegan, completed my undergraduate work at UNLV working full-time, paid for my own online nationally accredited MBA. After 17 years in MIS with a private company, I left to raise a child. When I went back to work I chose my alma mater. I took a 25% cut in pay at the top of the bubble to work in the education sector I was raised on.
My husband left 25 in computer science to go back to school at UNLV to teach. He is now a middle school math teacher at an at-risk school teaching children that, for so many reasons, are still struggling with basic math concepts.
My son is now attending the first of its kind Montessori Charter school in Henderson. He is getting a world-class education. Even though the charter school was approved it DID NOT ANY, previously anticipated, startup funds from the state. The directors and parents raised thousands of dollars to get the door open by the first day of school.
So where does this full disclosure go? This "is education important?" question is a critical. However, when you have to cut a 1M from 6M. You have to make hard choices.
You have to ask, whether you let prisoners out early? We have to ask, 'Should someone's grandpa and grandma continue to get state aid for diapers, dentures, and dialysis (sp?)?
We have to ask 'Do we fund the educations of our smallest, most vulnerable when their minds are the most ready to receive knowledge - 4 yrs (preschool) or wait until 7 yrs (first grade)?
Do we fund higher education to give ALL young adult equal opportunity to outstanding educations past high school so that they can be even more productive additions to our growing populations?
Whatever the hard choices are - they point of this article is not to share this question with you. But for you to get on the phone, email, snail-mail or attend the last interim finance committee meetings tomorrow to make you voice known!
It is a safe and convenient place to post your thoughts online. But do as I did the last two weeks, write to every legislature in your district, every congress-person state and federal, write to the president of the united states if it feels right. Heck if your downright bored, write to your governor! This is a government of the people, by the people and you bet these people believe THEIR state funded educations were important in their lives.
I think DMCVegas made some excellent points.
Actually, this is a very good forum of comments. I can see multiple viewpoints, all valid to some extent.
One wonders if the university system, like the entire economy, will have to re-set: Will we return to a time when the affluent were the ones who went to college, and everyone else either went to trade school or went to work?
I have a liberal arts degree from the mid 1980's, and I went to college for the sake of getting an education as opposed to getting a career. The cost of college has gone up so much, I could not do that today if I were young. I would probably be going to trade school instead. And frankly, I'm considering going to a trade school at some point!
Excellent comments all around.
When a government service fails, why do some people always say "spend more money"?
Would you go to a restaurant if it consistently burnt your food every time? Would you then think to yourself "maybe if I offer them more money they'll stop burning my food?"
Why do we hold the private sector to a higher standard? If they don't deliver us the best service at the best price, we take our money elsewhere, we don't give them more. Why do you want to give government more money when it consistently fails to produce results?
Look at the more educated states like Washington State, and Colorado. They have less unemployment.
PS, Klaich isn't being entirely forthcoming. The cuts to higher education amount to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction.
The general fund gives a fraction of all state appropriations to higher education. State appropriations to higher education are about half of all revenue for higher education.
When you break it down and look just at state appropriations - which was approved at $1.6 billion for the biennium, the recommended cuts amount to less than 5% of the state appropriations. From what I've learned, UNR and UNLV both have self sustaining budgets that account for half their revenues and expenditures.
Ms. Richmond, next time you write a piece on the value of higher education I suggest you interview Dr. Murray author of Real Education or Dr. Richard Vedder who has found a strong correlation between higher ed spending and weak economic growth.
"There is nothing which better deserves our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." - George Washington, Address to Congress, Jan. 8, 1790
Patrick is working overtime down there in the muck and mire of his "Think Tank," busily bashing away @ the dad burn Guv'mint thieves!
I hope Sheldon Adelson takes some of those Asian bucks he's starting to haul in and buys Pat a decent Air-Exchange Unit, so he can get some fresh air mixed in with all of that Methane gas!
From the State to the East: 20 new companies from the U of U alone. From k-12 to Universities- this is how the money comes back to the taxpayer. Whatever your political ideology, Utah and Massachusetts have outstanding research centers and it looks like it is paying off with JOBS and TAXES and payback for the investment. Boo hoo to you- Patrick!
SALT LAKE CITY -- Much of the research being done at the University of Utah is spun out into newfound companies, resulting in ongoing revenue for the school. For the past two years, the U. has rivaled the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for the number of start-ups it produces. This year, however, the Utes moved into a tie with the research giant, surpassing major players along the way.
Twenty new companies were formed during the 2008 fiscal year, ranking the U. first among other research institutions nationwide.
Ok....I call speedstream's bluff and raise him.
Name 10 companies in SLC that have more than 100 people on staff that were born out of the research from the Univ of Utah.
"More than 180 Utah companies were founded on University of Utah technologies over the past twenty years, and over 120 are prospering in Utah, including major employers like Myriad Genetics, Cephalon, ARUP, TheraTech (acquired by Watson Laboratories), Sarcos, Idaho Technology and Evans & Sutherland."-http://www.ustar.utah.edu/
How do non-degreed members (the majority) of society benefit by being forced to subsidize the education of those they compete with in the workforce?
All mandates which force the public to fund educational services should be prohibited not because educational services aren't important but because there are plenty of alternatives in which individuals can obtain knowledge without forcing financial penalties upon others.
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To all the anti-education geniuses: More power to you. I have my master's degree that I paid for with my own money, as does my wife. As such, we have been able to weather many economic downturns over the years as a result of our ability to change and adapt. We have always paid our taxes, never collected any kind of subsidy, and contributed to our community. Our educations saved our butts repeatedly. So I say to you, neo-morons, cut all the education you want. It's your taxes that will subsidize all the Wii, Xbox, and Playstation geniuses your ideas will create. Unless of course your butt is unemployed! OOps!
Cephalon was not founded on University of Utah technologies.
ARUP is a very old company was founded and going strong way before UU was conducting research.
TheraTech is mainly a Chicago company.
What kind of stupid story is this? Only in Nevada a state that does not value education could this be possible. I guess if we had jobs that required brain power then it would be a valid question. Valet, where are my keys, or bellman where is my luggage says it all. In my day, education was valued!
"Cephalon entered Utah when it acquired Salt Lake-based Anesta Corp. in 2000. Anesta's hallmark product was Actiq, a cancer-pain product resulting from technology developed at the University of Utah. Since the 2000 acquisition, Cephalon has paid more than $50 million royalties to the U. "This has been a very, very good, strong corporate citizen to the state of Utah," said Jerry Oldroyd, chairman of the board's incentives committee, during the board meeting."-http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700250978/State-tax-credit-spurs-Cephalon-to-expand-its-Salt-Lake-City-operations.html
Without U of Utah research, Cephalon would not be in Utah. See also, http://www.techventures.utah.edu/Documen... for more background.
ARUP Labs is owned and was founded by the U of Utah-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARUP_Laboratories. You are thinking of the consulting firm Arup.
Theratech Equipment is in Chicago. Theratech, the biotechnology company, is in Utah. Theratech is now owned by Waston labs. One supplies medical devices; the other is a biotech company.
MichaelGreen, Gmag39, fellows and ladies...since you made it 'almost that simple' -- how is it that we are paying ever more money for schools/education and we are paying ever more money for an increased prison population?...that fact alone would seem to defeat your argument...respectively, my suggestion is stop thinking statically and think dynamically...there are always going to be problems that need solutions...solving dynamic problems with static solutions is why we are where we are...good luck...methinks we agree on more than we disagree...
GW...
Good God, Man!
You've had a brief moment of lucidity!
Good Show, old chap!
You've nailed it there, old bean!
What is needed is a complete restructuring of the price of attending Nevada's public colleges.
Though it will never happen, because of the power of the Democrat/education lobby, the tuition and fees to attend ANY public institution should be increased to be the same as the tuition and fees to attend the private college in our state: "Sierra Nevada College". There should be no State subsidy, whatsoever, to any of the State owned colleges and universities.
Instead, the elitist, unconstitutional and violative of the Equal Protection Clause Millenium Scholarship Program should be abolished. There should be small grants to ALL Nevada residents who want to attend college, in equal dollar amounts, regardless of what college they want to attend. Obviously, the first semester's grant would have to be unconditional, but beyond that the grant would have to be tied to successful academic progress. As an additional component of the student bearing the COST of his/her college education, each student should be required to pay for the balance of his/her tuition OUT OF POCKET, either in cash or by way of student loans.
I believe that what we would see, without a state subsidy to support a massive, disfunctional faculty at UNLV and UNR, would be the practical academic programs (e.g. teaching, nursing, gaming management, business) being economically supported by student choice, whereas programs not meaningfully job related would fall by the wayside, if students were forced to bear the cost/benefit decision of what they chose to study.
If these spoiled, whining brats at UNLV we see on television were forced to pay for the TRUE COST of their college educations, what we would see is the b.s. academic majors and the college employee infrastructure to support them, fall by the wayside. That would rid the State's colleges of tenured professors who contribute nothing to the employability of the state's students.
It is not the job of the public, especially the working class and poor, through sales taxes, vehicle registrations and other taxes to pay the State of Nevada, to subsidize elitist, useless academic majors and programs or to pay for the education of upper middle class students who have had the requisite advantages in life to allow them to qualify to attend UNLV and UNR at the cost of the working class and poor.
The bottom line is that requiring all State colleges and universities to "break even" based upon student choice of what they are willing to pay for, out of their own pockets, is the more appropriate litertarian way for this state to operate its colleges and universities.
Once again, I find myself in 100% agreement with this Patrick Gibbons guy.
Sometimes sense makes sense.
When all the public universities are closed, the colleges left will be open only to the kids from wealthy families. When there is no one to visit the hotels, gamble and buy the ridiclously priced union produced goods, maybe you'll get the message.
@cynicalobserver... You gave yourself away there at the end with your "Libertarian" ranting.
I guess no one here in Nevada seems to understand that sometimes there is a small price to pay for the overall public good? Our forefathers are rolling over in their grave, watching our system of education, and the public apportionment of such, withering away to NOTHING.
I realize keeping people dumb, fat and "happy" might work in your world view... but for many of us, educated, healthy and wise is a MUCH better alternative.
1787 December 20. (to James Madison) "Above all things I hope the education on the common people will be attended to; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty."
1822 October 21. (to C.C. Blatchly) "I look to the diffusion of light and education as the resource to be relied on for ameliorating the condition, promoting the virtue, and advancing the happiness of man."
Oh, and PS -- That's Big TOM JEFFERSON, I quoted there. Not a "whiney lib", eyh??
Texas-LasVegas-European Student Exchange program.
"Our forefathers are rolling over in their grave, watching our system of education, and the public apportionment of such, withering away to NOTHING."
I can see that you must have skip history or something.
Public education in the US did not start until the middle 1800's.
So, I doubt our forefathers would have rolled their eyes over the funding of public education.
I am sure they rolling in their graves at the government waste in the public school system and the high taxes that we pay on a combined state and federal level.
I am sure they are not happy that our Fed government had to nearly borrow or print out thin-air some $2 trillion in one year to fund the government.
I have attended college here in the State system. I lost track of the number of so called professors (educators) that open there class with, I have tenure, so if you don't like me or the class tough, I teach what and the way I want, and good luck complaining. This flippant attitude is what leads posters like cynical observer, who obviously is highly educated to loose faith in the educational system, Of course, if we lived in Romania or somewhere where we were not interested in diversification our minds or horizons, he would be correct in his spiel of only offering courses that benefit the State or big business..
Spending more money doesn't produce results:
http://www.writeonnevada.com/2010/02/the...
at some point we all need to recognize that.
Actually, many of the founders believed in public education. For example, Thomas Jefferson famously presented "A Bill for the General Diffusion of Knowledge" to the Virginia legislature in 1778. Jefferson believe that
the "[bill] on education would [raise] the mass of the people to the high ground of moral respectability necessary to their own safety and to orderly government, and would [complete] the great object of qualifying them to secure the veritable aristoi for the trusts of government, to the exclusion of the pseudalists... I have great hope that some patriotic spirit will... call it up and make it the keystone of the arch of our government."
Although it did not pass, James Madison re-submitted the bill while Jefferson was in Paris.
Would Jefferson or Madison support funding cuts to education because of waste and bloated government? Who knows.
Did Jefferson and Madison believe that education was a public good requiring public expense? Yes.
c3po says;
"I have attended college here in the State system. I lost track of the number of so called professors (educators) that open there class with, I have tenure, so if you don't like me or the class tough, I teach what and the way I want, and good luck complaining."
Would anyone else like to call TOTAL BS on this?
The real issue here is that this recession was caused by greed corporate executives is now being used to cut education funding. (Corporations fired over 1,000,000 workers BEFORE this "recession" started in June 2009.)
Why?
Because ignorant people are easier to manipulate and they believe the disinformation on FOX and vote republican or not at all.
OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CAR AND FREE HIGHER EDUCATION FOR STUDENTS WHO EARN ENTRY BY PASSING EXAMS. AND THEIR ECONOMIES ARE GROWING!
The US is becoming more of a 3rd world country every day. This is just another step hidden behind A CAUSED RECESSION AND tax LOOPHOLES FOR corporationS and rich people.
The US is really an ogopolistic plutocracy- citibank even put this in writing.
Bob, this is why we need to decentralize government power. You say corporate greed did the economy in. I say bad government policies created bad incentives that drove the economy to ruin. We both can't be right.
Although I need to point out, corporations are greedy when times are good and they're greedy when times are bad.
Comment removed by moderator. Name-calling.
@JLouise said: "One wonders if the university system, like the entire economy, will have to re-set: Will we return to a time when the affluent were the ones who went to college, and everyone else either went to trade school or went to work?"
That worked when there were domestic manufacturing jobs. Now what? Are they all going to be greeters at Wal*Mart? Auto mechanics? Air conditioner repairmen?
I don't disagree in that perhaps not everyone attending UNLV needs to be getting a college degree. But the fact is that the state doesn't put the emphasis on education, and it doesn't seem to see the need to. The money quote from the last legislative session was that some lawmakers didn't want to raise educational funds because "an 8th grade education is enough for Nevada".
Also, I've said it before, measuring UNLV or UNR's success or failure by how long it takes to graduate a student is complete bunk. I went to school with plenty of kids that took 7-8 years because they needed to have a full time job while they went to school, and could only take 6 or 9 credits per semester. They decided that there are enough well paying jobs in Vegas where you don't need a degree, they can work 40 hours a week and still go to school. A few of them to get away from their alcohol or gambling addicted parents and try to start fresh. They didn't have a choice, they had to get out, find a job, and get into school.
@cpo: I went to UNLV and I never had a professor say that. I know many who also attended UNLV and never heard anyone say anything like that.
I did have one awful professor in my five years there (Calc 2), but he never flaunted it. He had a bad enough reputation that most kids knew to drop his class the first week. From 35 kids on day one to 7 showing up to take the final exam, of which I know 3 who passed, myself included.
siromega,
Thank you for that.
c3po,
Nope. Just pointing out that you are being dishonest.
People who think we have to have a massive manufactoring base have not been paying attention.
America's manufactoring base in many ways has grown - fewer people do the work but we build more stuff. This has allowed us to expand in other ways like into high value services.
There is a reason why Americans are wealthier today than 30 or 40 years ago. Losing manufactoring jobs hasn't hurt us.
Siromega,
Kids with college degrees won't do us a bit of good if the economy doesn't actually require kids to get a college degree - most jobs don't need one and frankly most college degrees only signal that you can do 4 years worth of work and complete a program it doesn't signal that you have any special skills. The fact is, we may have become over invested in higher education - that is spending more money than is necessary and we are no longer getting a return on any new dollar invested.
@NoMore - I support spending cuts that produce efficiency. What I don't support is a continued reduction of public support until the system fails and everyone loses.
When did you get your degrees? 20 years ago? I got my degree from there as well just a few years ago, and I only had assistants in some labs.
I agree that those that are not up to level should be filtered through community college first. The thing is, those are getting cut too...
Assuming we all agree to the current American value that education should be available for all, then no one should support cuts. It's a big assumption based on this comment section.
Patrick, please. We have enough stupid people.
DO NOT try to discourage young people from going to college. EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN CHILD should have the opportunity. What DO you think about down there in that stinky think tank? WOW!
NO WONDER WE ARE IN TROUBLE, PAT!
As for the public-private argument, has anyone noticed that most of the food advertised for incredibly cheap prices at the supermarket tends not to be so good as the costlier versions of the same at other markets? As my mother the libertarian conservative used to say, you get what you pay for.
That is not to say that reform is unnecessary. Some groups and individuals simply refuse to change, and that is wrong. Beyond government itself, all of us benefit as individuals from constantly rethinking issues and personal matters. Those kinds of people, by the way, usually are called liberal in their thinking. I'm sure that comment will provoke something, but hear me out. I see a lot of people on here who say no to everything or offer the same tired nostrums for every issue. That is not how the dictionary defines liberal. It also is not how the dictionary defines conservative. If you have ideas, bring them on.
Wait a minute. Didn't Barack Obama say that to Republicans in Congress? Oh, well. I guess I'm as naive as he is in thinking people might actually care about their community or country more than they do about being rigid.
You know who likes education I'll tell you who likes education librurl elitists that's who and since elites never put no food on nobody's table nor made the pie higher for me nor anyone i know i say we lissen to the guvener keep Nevada the way it is... It's already as smart as it's gonna get, folks, so why bother any furhter!
Gmag, if I'm so busy trying to hide the truth, why is that you have so few facts of your own?
There is nothing wrong with going to college gmag. The problem is, colleges may be recruiting kids THEY KNOW have a statistically low chance of graduating for the sake of getting revenue. If this was a private sector operation you'd call them "predatory" or "greedy"
Second, we should note that not all college degrees teach you a marketable skill. Any business person in Nevada should know that, especially when they are looking at resumes with degrees listed as political science, history, womens studies, philosophy, psychology etc.
Fun degrees to be sure, but what exactly will they do for the student? What will skills will they learn that benefits them as individuals? What will benefit their boss, their job, their customers, the economy?
Patrick, Patrick,
It's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, isn't it?
Dr. Green,
I'm glad you brought up the point of "you get what you pay for"
It doesn't apply to government.
In the private sector you buy goods from industries which are competiting to provide you the best service at the best price. Government faces no competitive pressure to provide better services or offer services at lower prices.
Here is a better analogy:
"Paying $100,000 for a Kia won't make it do the quarter mile in 10 seconds. You just end up with $100,000 Kia"
Spending more money on something doesn't make it better, you can always be ripped off ;)
Gmag,
Ask that of a college student or college drop out who is under miles of debt from college and working at a job they could have earned without ever going to college. In some cases we are literally robbing the poor to pay the PhD.
As I said, Pat...
...in fact, is there a post of yours that does NOT mention money?
" Government faces no competitive pressure to provide better services or offer services at lower prices."-Patrick Gibbons
Of course, this argument doesn't apply to higher education as many private universities and compete with public universities for students.
" Government faces no competitive pressure to provide better services or offer services at lower prices."-Patrick Gibbons
Of course, this argument doesn't apply to higher education as many private universities exist and compete with public universities for students.
RE: Patrick
Is Helen Weils your mother?
Gregory;
Classic.
Dazed,
True to an extent. Competition is part of the reason why higher education in America is still good. We give government subsidies to a student (indirectly and directly) and allow them to pick the school best for themselves.
Overtime this has created its own problems (and contributes to excessive growth in higher ed spending at rates far exceeding population growth and inflation combined).
But if the success of American higher ed in the international realm is to have any relevance to K-12 education it should be that we offer vouchers for public or private education and let kids pick their own schools. ;)
Now, many of you can debate the merits of graduate education and having a research university.
However, when trying to become a research university, to a certain degree, you do "get what you pay for." To get qualified researchers, you need the right "package" to attract good faculty. This includes a competitive salary and startup package. I can tell you that before 1998, UNLV had great difficulty attracting quality researchers. However, after that time, a concerted effort attracted good research active faculty. Some results?
1. In inflation adjusted numbers, the annual research dollars have tripled.
2. In peer reviewed publications, when the rest of the country saw a slight decrease in quantity, UNLV doubled its annual output.
3. Regarding peer reviewed publications, it is not just quantity that has increased, it is also quality. As one example, consider the prestigious journal Physical Review Letters. Before 1998, in the entire history of UNLV, 6 publications appeared in this journal. Since 1998, over 50 have been in print.
There are more I could list. However, these are three very glaring examples of how, at least in terms of research, you do need to invest to get better results.
Gmag,
If the pursuit of knowledge is someone's goal and their only goal, why should society subsidize them if there is little to no public benefit.
This is why I buy my own courses from The Teaching Company: http://www.teach12.com/teach12.aspx?ai=1...
I get university lectures to satisfy my need for knowlege at a fraction of the price and no cost to taxpayers. (I buy most of the stuff during their sales).
Right now I'm studying "Thinking about Capitalism" it is a History of Capitalist and anti capitalist thought and "The History of the Universe" lessons in cosmology.
Now back to money - the primary reasons government advertises college to kids (whether true or not) is this:
1) You make more money (college grads make more than high school drop outs on average)
2) You cost taxpayers less money (less jail for college graduates)
3) You become productive and pay taxes (since you've allegedly got a good paying job and you're not in jail)
It always boils down to money - we're capitalists after all ;)
Killer,
You basically just stated "we invest more in inputs to get more inputs"
Is the purpose of the university to give jobs to academics or to train the next generation?
What has this done for the undergraduates? The answer is next to nothing.
Another point. Patrick keeps printing the number that UNLV spends over $16,000 per student and that this is over the median of spending for public universities. However, this statistic, as presented, is misleading. Namely, the numbers are compared to ALL public universities (over 500 of them). When comparing to PhD granting public universities (which I think most would agree is the fair comparison), UNLV is thousands below the median.
An oversight or misrepresentation? You be the judge.
"How do non-degreed members (the majority) of society benefit by being forced to subsidize the education of those they compete with in the workforce?" You're kidding right Harley? How do non-degreed members of society compete with doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers, nurses, etc. without an education? And how do you, as a non-degreed member of society purpose you get those services without people receiving education to provide those services? You must have written this before you had your coffee.
Hey Patrick, the correspondance courses do not change the fact that you revieved a state funded education including graduate school as you have stated previously. You allways fail to mention you benefited from the system you now mock. Where was your outrage then big guy. When it benefited you it was ok. Get out of the tank, shower, and avoid the noxious gas you are spewing. Your comments are self-serving and hypocritical. For those of you including patrick who continue to degrade higher education, when was the last time you were on campus, when did you last take a class, when did you do any research as to what goes on there. I think you are too busy typing to worry yourself with the facts.
Here is more Sgt Rockhead- over 200 ideas from the University that can be commercialized. Obviously nobody in this State has enough brains to even read the research papers because Nevada doesn't place any importance on education. Nevada will continue to be a third world disaster of "dumb and dumbers" until the people change their attitudes about education. Period, end of story! Money follows brains and brains aren't coming to Nevada. Brains go to Massachusetts and Utah so they can make money on new progressive thinking and practices. Who wants to yell KENO in a casino anyway?
Technology Search
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http://utah.technologypublisher.com/
Patrick,
Have state and local appropriations for higher education increased "at rates far exceeding population growth and inflation combined" nationally? As you know, the answer is "no".
The data on spending is more complicated, and you have a stronger case. But, that is spending is largely being fueled by "efficient" market forces (tuition increases, grants, and private gifts).
Take this Sgt Rockhead- or bonehead!
Roughly 13,300 jobs and an estimated $468 million in wages and salaries are attributed to start-up and spin- off companies directly associated with Utah's research universities. The tax revenue impact was $37.5 million. Local units of government received almost $7 million
http://www.ustar.utah.edu/Documents/BEBR...
sheilacatherine & chemproff;
Some very lucid points; I'm sure they won't reach the depths of Pat's Think Tank, but it sure is worth a try!
I never thought I'd live to see the day when a grown, educated man would be such a complete & total shill for an Anti-Education agenda, bought & PAID FOR by an extremist outfit like NPRI.
Patrick- for every million in research it returned 1.5 million to Utah's economy. Wonder why they have a 6% unemployment rate and Nevada has a 20% unemployment rate?
They actually make something of value with their brains and hands.
Until Nevada accepts the reality and spends money to MAKE something of value with our BRAINS and HANDS we will go nowhere! Invest in higher ed and Nevada can be successful- don't invest and we should sell the state to the highest bidder- just like your foreclosed home.
Based on these ratios, each $1.0 million in research gen- erated by the U of U and USU returned $1.5 million to Utah's economy, created 39 jobs and $732,000 in earn- ings. The impact on the state's treasury was $59,000. (Table 5)
The awful truth is that universities and colleges are extremeful expensive to operate and drain the public monies appropriated for them. The return on investment is low and the private sector has to fill in the blanks for them.
Patrick, first:
" ...we should note that not all college degrees teach you a marketable skill. Any business person in Nevada should know that, especially when they are looking at resumes with degrees listed as political science, history, womens studies, philosophy, psychology etc." Is thinking not a marketable skill? I would hope that in any job, there is a degree of thought, even if it involves rote action. Perhaps automatons are popular at NPRI.
As to getting what you pay for, I do not know how much you are paid; my salary is a matter of public record. But if you think of human beings as the equivalent of a Kia, then we are back to your earlier point and I guess there is no more to discuss, and you should be very comfortable hanging out with the likes of Jim Gibbons, who, for your sake, I hope is not part of the same gene pool. If you know the answer to that, I suspect you found it out by using your brain, which might just say something about your above points, eh?
News from MIT- Massachusetts Institute of Technology spinoff called 1366 technologies.
The company's ultimate business will be to make and sell texturing and metallization machines that solar cell manufacturers can incorporate into their existing assembly lines. "The big news for us is that we're going into commercial production with equipment that [when used together] delivers an 18-percent multicrystalline cell," Lund says.
Cheap solar cells with an 18% efficiency rate will change the solar game forever!
Patrick and the righty tighties don't believe in anything but drill-baby-drill and cut-baby-cut.
Patrick's children can move to another state and work for companies that have been developed from ideas born with tax structures that allow advanced research to flourish.
Or maybe Patrick's children can learn to count to "21" and work in a smoky casino forever!
Gee if only they only had a choice?
According to Patrick_R_Gibbons, "Dr. Richard Vedder ... has found a strong correlation between higher ed spending and weak economic growth". He surely doesn't think the better the education in a state, the slower the state grows. It works the other way around: slow-growing states are preparing their kids to compete globally, most likely not in the slow-growing home states where they're educated.
So far, fast-growing Nevada has benefited from this--few of Nevada's scientists, university professors or casino executives were educated at the state's expense. Why shouldn't Nevada continue to free-ride at the expense of the rest of the nation? Why should Nevada subsidize the educations of those who'll leave once our growth has slowed and opportunities are few? For one thing, Nevada's kids are our kids. But if you don't care about "our" kids, think of your property values and business prospects. Growth may slow but it won't stop. And the quality of the change and growth that occurs depends on the state's educational infrastructure, K-16+. If you don't want to repel Nevada's present and prospective residents who can move our economy ahead, you had better not trash--you had better strengthen--education in the state.
They named a road after Patrick- how quaint.
NPRI
3155 E. Patrick Lane
Suite 10
Las Vegas, NV 89120
College is an evil debt trap. Unemployment is extremely high now amongst college grads.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/14/...
ss/la-fi-jobs-graduates14-2009dec14
Have you seen those videos where people show you their bill from Sallie Mae? They are scarier than SAW 6.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHCtlOvzA...
Hey Speedstream, that's awesome! So, are we going to try to be MIT? Because that's retarded.
I don't see MIT screaming that they don't have a lot of 4-star restaurants, or mega-resorts. That's because WE have them. They have MIT, and we have awesome resorts.
(BTW, Massachusetts is flat broke - more so than us - and they have all sorts of "broad based" taxes).
We have to find an identity here. Are we going to be an adult playground for the country? or try to be all things to all people all the time?
Just watch Jay Leno's Jaywalking segment for the answer.
In some peoples' minds, it's all about the money.
Ask Warren Buffet why in the world he drives a beat-up old car when he clearly could afford a new one.
Ask Michael Jordan why he'd choose to spend so much time and effort on perfecting a move.
It's about autonomy, mastery and purpose; it's only about money (an exterior thing) when there is no interior drive.
Look at SgtRock for a second; he says teaching is easy because ya make good money, have little stress and summers off.
99% of the teachers I know never considered those things; their motivation was intrinsic and purposeful: they wanted to help folks get skills because they wanted to do that. Doing that made them happy.
We are not individual automatons; we are in fact autonomous individuals.
Sure money counts and I got some, but it's a secondary motivator behind what I want to do with my moment in paradise.
Bozos that hold it's all about the dough don't even find happiness when they're rich.
Contrast that to the life of the potter who finds joy in a shape, a hue or a flaw.
Bigger houses and fancier cars don't begin to fill the hole in their hearts; if ya avoid the heart song, ya die poor, irrespective of mountains of gold.
Public funding of education -- K thru college -- should be done via student vouchers tied to specific students and not thru allocations directly to the schools/systems. And Private/Charter schools should be eligible. The goal of public funding of education is not to create & sustain an educational bureacracy but to educate students, and we will never have efficient & effective education in this state until we focus on achievement.
The GOP expends too much effort attacking the cost of the system, the Dems too much justifying it, and neither focuses on results. If anyone should be deomized, it should be these inept and ignorant pols We the People keep foolishly electing to office. It's time to find some serious people willing to roll up there sleeves, stop wasting time & money, and make policies work or get rid of them. Gibbons, Reid, Ensign, Berkely, Horsford -- they're all an embarassment and need to be replaced.
Jackson Pollack, Nietzche, Kant, Beaudelaire, Voltaire, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Bill Gates, the little train that could, Dr. Seuss
an endless caravan of spirits NOT driven by the dollar, but by the flow, the moment and the motivation to make their life count in their own measure of human value.
Snowflakes
If schools were set up as ROWEs, Results Only Work Environments, our problems would shrivel. The better learners would become great learners and those who don't want to waste their time studying right now could find the things that propel them.
Anachronistic classrooms, distance learning and discovery programs will become the paths for schools; the old brick things can house the homeless.
If our school system followed what science and business know about providing information so that learners skyrocket up the learning curves, our discussions on threads such as this would take on a whole new flavor.
Asynchronous...not anachronistic..huh
sorry
I'm out of coffee and had to start off with tea. It's not the same.
Dr. Green,
If you paid $100,000 for a Kia, would that mean the car could run the quarter mile in 10 seconds flat?
Paying for what you get has no bearing in government. Like I said, sometimes you just spend more money to get the same results. In the case of higher education, we're spending more money to hire more adults and getting the same results.
Chemp,
So because one person benefited at the expense of someone else, we must stay the course, fund a broken system that requires more and more money to do the same thing it did the year before?
That doesn't sound smart.
Robbing the poor to pay the PhD is not a fair policy.
Smith,
The reason why Vedder found a negative correlation between higher ed spending and economic growth is simple - we might be over invested in higher education (or at the very least, spending money in ways that do not improve student's skills, and thus contribute to the economy).
Employing more adults to achieve the same results means we're wasting resources. Both human capital and monentary capital. Both could be employed to other uses and produce goods or services that benefit society more.
Simply spending more money won't get results unless you spend it on things that work.
Why is it there is always plenty of money for wars and none for education?
maybe the 2467th post will not contain a financial reference.
Hope springs eternal!
Patrick,
You stated, "So because one person benefited at the expense of someone else, we must stay the course, fund a broken system that requires more and more money to do the same thing it did the year before?"
No I simply pointed out you are a big fat hypocrit. It is self-serving for you to bash higher education when you benefited from it. It is also self-serving to cherry-pick questionable facts and figures to support your misguided lobbying efforts.
So, I suppose that you never go to the doctor or dentist. If you do, Im sure you checked to make sure they went to a private college or university. Because based on your comments there is no value to higher education if it comes at expense of others (taxpayers). So please stop taking all of your medications, stop going to the doctor, and follow the doctorine you are preaching of not benefitting from any service that was provided at the expense of state funding. How dare they get an education at taxpayers expense and provide services to everyone in the state.
Finally,the system requires more money because more and more people have decided to get an education rather than being employed by gaming. How about you quote the real numbers. The state of Nevada has never thrown money at Higher education, K-12, or education in general. The increases in funding were based on increasing enrollment. Where are those numbers smart guy. How about you quote how much research dollars have been brought into the unviersity from the professors that do research that you mock. How about you qoute how much of that money goes back to the state as overhead. These are the mere details that you forget to include to push your agenda.
My post had nothing to do with undergraduate graduation rates. I agree that is certainly something that needs to be improved at UNLV. I realize you don't think that having a research university is a cost effective endeavor. However, anyone that is trying to evaluate research universities will use criteria such as I listed. And, it is quite clear that spending money on research at UNLV has increased research productivity significantly. Again, I realize you don't see the value in this but many others do.
I wonder if all these potential solutions herein are being read by the legislature? If all of you who have made positive remarks in response to this education story could be assembled in a forum to present, discuss, boil down, and integrate your collective - ideas for consideration by the legislature, assuming the legislature has the will to listen - I believe there could be real progress toward addressing and finding solutions to these funding and academic issues.
I agree with those who believe higher Education must remain an important part of our (national) culture; its value has been huge in terms of development, engineering, and research outcomes for all kinds of businesses. It is what made America the leader in many fields in years gone by (before self/special interests showed up).
But how public or private colleges should be funded is a question for parents who send young people to college, and those educators who's job it is to teach.
But only includes politicians to the extent legislators write laws designed to serve the best interests of the general public - and the State, as far as the State Constitution allows and is necessary to run the State government.
As for funding higher education, there ways more monies could be available for education if, for example, the legislature had not "given away tax revenues" in the form of tax abatements for hotels and casions etc.
I am talking about the "green" legislation that was written in 2005 by (Ms "G")to give CityCenter a 50% tax exemption on "green" construction costs -now shown to be a loss of millions of dollars in State tax revenues.
This negative-income-tax legislation has been also been used by other hotels (about 22 at the moment)in Las Vegas who have jumped on that band-wagon to construct "green" buildings at a substantial tax savings.
I suggest the legislature REPEAL the entire tax abatement program - which, at this point, has already provided a loss in Property Tax revenues upwards of $300 million dollars.
Education, as reflected by comments herein, is necessary to buiid an advanced and self-sufficient society; one where learned and knowledgeable people have developed the intellect and understanding that permits us to dig into and solve all kinds of problems. Indeed, to live in this world.
Knowledge is a prerequisite for all forms of human endeavor.
As Socrates said, in putting forth his method of Socratic Inquiry (which involves asking questions, and debating answers), "The unexamined life is not worth living."
I would suggest that higher education makes our lives "worth living" because of the results produced by inquisitive people who strive do better; to excel, to learn, and to teach others.
UNLV is a university, not a college. A university is a collection of colleges. So when people say that we need to cut UNLV to save health care, k-12 or transportation, understand that UNLV has colleges that for nursing, education and law. cutting UNLV in the short term will be a cut to those other services in the long term. If you want to diversify the Las Vegas economy in the long term to soften the next recession, don't cut UNLV.
I also notice a error in some peoples comments. University professors are not dedicated teachers. Teaching class usually comes secondary to research and development.
One more comment on the cost of having a research university that goes with cherry picking statistics. I looked at the numbers Patrick keeps listing that "show" UNLV is spending more than the median for public universities. Dividing these into PhD and non-PhD granting universities (and removing military academies) yields
PhD granting:
UNR: $30,290
Median: $22,764
UNLV: $16,537
non-PhD granting
Median: $12,779
So, yes it costs more to have a research university. And contrary to Patrick's repeated analysis of UNLV being funded above the median, it is clear that against the proper peers, UNLV is funded at over $6,000 less (or 73%) of the median.
i earned my bachelors at unlv, and then earned my masters at a research university in the Midwest. UNLV did not compare to the tradition, funding, and academic/social experience at the Midwest university.
People do not respect UNLV, and is evident with the multiple comments about closing or decreasing funding to the university.
@ Patrick, and everyone else too!
" ...we should note that not all college degrees teach you a marketable skill. Any business person in Nevada should know that, especially when they are looking at resumes with degrees listed as political science, history, womens studies, philosophy, psychology etc."
I haven't read all the comments on this page yet, but as a student at UNLV, I ask you to consider this:
What about all the allied health majors? We have majors for Nursing, Clinical Laboratory Science, Radiography... ALL these majors prepare the students to become professionals in the health care setting. Nevada has huge shortages in all these fields. It is programs like this that are EXTREMELY valuable for the state, and it is very sad to hear that because these programs are so "small" in size, these programs may be cut entirely from UNLV.
You go to a hospital sick, you NEED these professionals to know what they are doing and be trained. Without Clinical Lab Scientists, your doctor would NOT be able to diagnose what is wrong with you. CLS runs all the "tests" a doctor orders, and they have to be very thorough, and reliable in what they report. A mistake by a CLS professional could lead to someones mis-diagnosis, wrong treatment and even death. I am SURE I speak for everyone in saying I want that scientist to be trained in how to run tests, and read the results, knowing my life may depend on it.
I know a hot-button on everyone's mind is health care, and maybe education is "second" in a lot of minds. But consider how much you rely on your nurse, laboratory scientist, radiography, and so on, to be trained in what they do... You don't want someone off the street taking your blood and figuring out what's wrong, you want that person EDUCATED. Budget cuts to UNLV, particular to the allied health programs, will affect health care. Period.
I ask the readers to just think about that, when considering "How much" a degree is worth. It could be your life on the line.
I'm not sure why everyone is so concerned about the loss of higher education in Nevada. There are lots of educated folks (like me) who are willing to move here from other states to fill jobs requiring education...like those in state government. If the universities here can't produce the numbers and quality of graduates needed in critical government jobs, they can be imported from Utah, Colorado, or California. If the industries like mining can't get Nevada grads to fill critical planning, engineering, and other jobs that need higher education, they'll recruit from other states, too. Soon not only all the unemployed higher degree holding folks will have jobs, but Nevada will be governed (and populated) by those from other states with more reasonable outlooks who want their children educated. And WE will find a way to fund both K-12 education and higher education in this state, just like other states do quite well. I do have to say that coming from another state that places a very high value on education, I am astonished at the miserable state of education at all levels in this state.
Having read all the above posts it is clear that the educated know well the value of education. Many, but not all, also know what it means to pay your dues for that education and to then give back to society. There is a divide. A moral Grand Canyon exists in higher education. There are those who seek degrees for personal finacial gain, academic ego based status, as well as those who dream of curing cancer, serving humanity, or engineering a new source of energy. While those without any scientific education may feel it is esoteric for society one has to wonder what type of information technology you would be interfacing with right now had the academic institutions of the world been banned from public tax support long ago.
" A thousand times each day I remind myself that my life is based on the labors of other men and I must exert myself in order to give as I have received....and I am still receiving" A. Einstein.
According to "60 Minutes," the Bloom Box features a new kind of fuel cell. Oxygen combines with fossil fuels like natural gas or renewable fuels like solar to create a chemical reaction that produces electricity, with no need for power lines from an outside source. Sridhar, an Indian-born engineer who has a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering, told "60 Minutes" that his fuel cells use sand that is baked into a ceramic and then coated with proprietary inks.
The company has reportedly raised nearly $400 million in funding. Besides Google, Wal-Mart and eBay are also testing them, as is FedEx at its hub in Oakland. Sridhar says he hopes to see the day when the average consumer could buy a unit for less than $3,000.
Patrick- If this energy system works as stated the benefits to society could be totally amazing! Your statement about "robbing the poor" to pay for Phd's is about as stupid as it gets. The poor benefit from research just like the rich. You have it exactly backwards, the poor are taking valuable resources that need to go into creating PHd candidates that can make these types of products possible.
UNLV has fat to cut. I'm sorry, I love Rebel sports and I graduated from UNLV but there are many worthless profs there. So many entitled fools that make very good money to not teach classes well but get published in some obscure journals. If you are looking at cutting services from the state budget, that is where you start.
Patrick
Let's privatize higher education. Sell the campuses and move on. Let market forces like University of Phoenix decide was programs to offer. (right)
Land Grant Universities and public unverisities are passe
An ignorant voter is the politician's best friend.
It is impossible today to place requirements on voter registration of any sort other than citizenship (in theory). It is more important than ever that we have an electorate that knows how to think for themselves, and that is what the first two years of college is about (or, at least should be), learning how to think.
Schools are in the warehousing business around here.
It's a take-me-out-to-the-ball-game, baby culture. It won't change. Don't expect thinkers to evolve from fruitcake.
Humanity is lost to toys and terminal instant gratification.
Have a few drinks and forget about your dreams, kid.
The universities could start by cutting those professors that don't teach the kids. They are high paid, looking to get published somewhere. Get rid of them. Educations case is they get less than half of their funding from the general fund? So does DOT, and none of the savings from furloughs or any of the other cuts, goes back into the general fund, so answer me why it is, those state employees are expected to balance the budget with more severe cuts than any other state agency? and teachers are now exempt from cuts.