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StumbleMan accused of counting cards sues over Harrah’s ban
Wednesday, Feb. 3, 2010 | 1:30 p.m.
A Las Vegas man accused of counting cards at the Paris Las Vegas casino on the Strip is taking Harrah’s Entertainment to court in his bid to re-enter the company's casinos after he was banned.
In the lawsuit filed this week in Clark County District Court, Steven Silverstein claims Nevada law prevents Harrah’s from denying him access to the company's casinos. The suit claims he was banned from Harrah's western region casinos in September.
On Sept. 6, 2009, four uniformed men approached Silverstein at the blackjack table where he was playing at Paris Las Vegas, according to the lawsuit. The men demanded Silverstein leave the blackjack table and follow them to the cashier's cage, where he was told to cash in his gambling chips.
Silverstein then was approached by the Paris casino manager, who told him “We don’t want you coming to our hotel or, for that matter, any of our hotels,” the lawsuit claims.
The casino manager then told Silverstein he would be arrested if he entered any Harrah’s-owned or -operated properties, and was physically escorted out of the casino, according to the suit.
In a five-page letter to Harrah’s Chief Executive Gary Loveman on Sept. 22, 2009, Silverstein detailed his take of the Sept. 6 events and claimed it was a case of mistaken identity. The letter indicated Silverstein is an attorney in Orange County.
Harrah’s Vice President for Legal Affairs Mark Dunn responded to the letter and informed Silverstein that he was indefinitely banned from 16 of Harrah’s western region casinos.
Silverstein sent Dunn a letter claiming discrimination, saying the Massachusetts Institute of Technology blackjack team, also accused of card counting, is allowed to enter Harrah’s casinos. Silverstein said in his letter that his Harrah’s rewards card has been revoked at all Harrah’s casinos, including those not in the western region, preventing him from playing poker.
Harrah’s Entertainment didn't immediately return a request for comment Wednesday afternoon.
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Steve Silverstein is not very smart. Card counters and poker players alike, thinking they are smarter, the world revolve around them. Great entertainment provided by the smart guys!
The casinos can 86 whomever they want to. This guy needs to get over it and go to another casino. Harrah's is not the only casino in the world.
S711
Maybe he refused the free booze and drugs to keep him losing. Court documents seem to indicate that is the preferred player profile at Harrah's..
With treatment like this, maybe Obama's Vegas comment was right. LOL
He should know better. Heaven forbid someone should actually try to even the odds, using only his mind.
I wonder what would have happened if he sucked at counting cards and lost big while he was counting cards. I'm sure the casino would have still asked him to leave. Yeah, right! Funny how that works...
Question: How do they know you are counting cards.
Redneck:
Let's say you r at a $100 table min (5k max). And u are betting 100's, then out of nowhere u are betting 5k or more per hand, because the card count changed to the players advantage.
That is pretty much how they do it.
Would be interesting to find our how much this guy won.
Casinos will leave the low roller card counter alone
card counting is not illegal though..lol
Paris offers mostly garbage games. Few brain-using patrons would bother playing the Harrah's junk.
I read the complaint, and this guy is out of control. He can't even spell correctly! Furthermore, he admits he was counting and then goes on to tell the CEO that he will tell his customers (which are allegedly Arab billionaires) that they should not stay at any Harrah's property. Seriously?! Where does this yutz get off?!
Black Jack/21 whatever you want to call it sucks nowadays. I wouldn't go near the rip off odds and diluted decks offered by the corporate thieves.
redneck
you are correct card counting is not illegal but the casinos are also private property and can refuse service to anyone they choose
You don't have to count cards to be asked to leave; my sister is NOT a card counter. She just played a good basic game and was on a winning streak, Harrah's and other casinos don't like winners. You can stay until you lose the farm but don't take too much of their money. The truth is counting cards is not easy and most people that try it don't do it very well. As long as you're not cheating the casinos should not be aloud to 86 you, and your right it is private property. However the state has issued the casino a license and could revoke it for expelling non-cheaters. Oh, by the way, why did the gaming control board allow 5-6 pay outs for black jack? I think this guy should sue the state in federal court. I'm sure a lawyer can come up with the correct complaint. I believe that you can stay as long as you are losing but are removed when you are winning, I would call that theft. The state allows this to take place, so the state is in collusion with casinos to commit a crime. May be there are so organized crime charges that could brought?
tullyroost....can they refuse service to blacks or gays or jews..etc. etc.? Seems to me this would be discrimination just because the guy is smarter than the system.
The State courts are never going to shoot the cow that the State milks for income. Many lawyers and their clients have tried and to date I know of none that have been ruled in favor of.
Aside from the fact that the plaintiff is not a good speller, he sure seems to be in the right in this matter.
If what he says is true, what did he do wrong?
Being observant of aces?
Harrahs is sure the least classy of casino operators.
Bring back the boys.
Between Mr. Watanabe and Mr. Silverstein, Harrahs is like a bully.
I think the only reason a casino would throw me out is for not gambling enough.
Casinos, like any business have the right to refuse service to anyone. (outside of discrimination).
Silverstein merely needs to walk out the door and head to one of the dozens of other casinos not in the Harrahs fold. I'm sure MGM or Wynn would invite him in.
With the multi deck shufflers and constant change of cards, it's pretty tough to count nowadays.
Did Harrah's validate his parking when they escorted him out? At least did they give him a free T-shirt?
HARRAHS don't like competition
The crux is that you might get away on the small tables, 10 dollar minimum, by suddenly jacking up the bet to 50 or 3 hands by 40 all over sudden. The flip side of the coin is, however, the small limits offer 6:5, and then you can count as much as you want, you won't ever get enough edge to make you a winner. Why is that? It's simple: All these hands you must play minimum under terrible conditions like that it's hard to overcome these theoretical losses when the count gets highly positive and you start betting more.
And if you go into the lion's cave, the high limit pits, they will keep a much closer look on you, and that's where there probably still have ....halfway decent rules and 3:2 on the b-j, but there you must bet 100 or more and as soon as you play with a spread higher than 5 or so, they easily figure out what's going on.....especially if you only drink perrier and coffee black.
There are probably better casinos in Las Vegas where counting cards still works. But not if you live there and get noticed sooner or later.
Here we have a little "tourist edge". We can come there, play 30-50 minutes on a table, speak in our language, and then walk on. It's hard for them to figure out that counting is going on.
From Switzerland
Loveman,Batjer and Jones need to be walked out of Harrah's,for good.
HOW DARE THIS GUY WIN AT ONE OF OUR PROPERTIES! MY BONUS WASN'T BUILT ON WINNERS!
of course all casinos hate a winner. vegas was built with the money of losers.
HA! I dont like how theres is probably like 3 paragraphs of info that should have been at the end of this article... Really why does he think he can re-enter after the ban? Now, because of the show their putting on, every casino will have had their surveillance pics and stats and be ready for when they loose this battle in court and show up in another casino... fools...
Socialism For All !
He's better off slipping a bit, stumbling foreward a dozen steps or so and then finally falling and then get a ambulance chaser and sue. A casino can accuse and ban anybody andtime and they do. A single card counter is real simple to spot by an experienced pitman - it's the pattern of the bets and the size of the bets each and everytime. Its like probable cause to a cop, it means absolutely nothing at all. If they want you they get you and 99% of the time the prosecutor and judge sides with the huge money. Hey, its USA, even more crooked than Mexico.
Next time go to a pair of Dockers, get a cup of black coffee and let it cool a bit and walk out into the main room of say one of the elite casinos and let it ride ... drop the coffee, scream, start a good show of slidding in your dockers and pomp down on the tile as hard as you can take it just sit back unable to get up get in an ambulance and claim all kinds of hurts and pain and in about six to eight months you'll get offered a settlement. Keep the local newspaper informed and complain like crazy about those slick floors.Gotta love it, tho!
Gen Henri Petan, Paris France
They are starting to ban the sports bet "runners" (guys that place bets for the wise guys)now, because they are getting their butts handed to them in sports betting.
The casinio is going to win because they have a license to steal, this guy is wasting his time and he is a sore looser he pride was hurt when he was kicked out form the joint and since he is an attorney he is give the casino a hard time even that he knows he is not going to win he knows that a law suit is too much paper work which everybody hates. My advice grow up, that's why everybody hates attorneys.
I was not aware there any playable BJ games at Paris, unless you enjoy counting 6/5 6 deck shoes. I do know Paris is a "gay friendly" hotel according to Harrah's website. Perhaps he offended homosexuals at the table and was tossed out.
For all you naysayers -- card counting does work and there are still plenty of games around town that are exploitable. If you have a large enough bankroll, are patient, are not greedy, manage your bet spreads, and have a good cover it can really pay off. Just think of the casino as your own personal ATM.
SB weekend will be perfect for my "team" and I to put a hurting on casinos all over town. JH.
If they do not want your play go to another casino,like they say theres more casino in the Las Vegas.
Yet another human interest story from the underbelly of humanity. What I find amusing are the type of people that can actually carry out the actions described. Compared to say a soldier in combat, a carpenter, or a cancer researcher what they do and the source of their funding is nothing to be proud of. Indeed they are mere parasites on society and this is simply how they flex their little power that only applies in their little world. It is clear their actions will always be front and center in the history books as the most extraordinary heroisms of our age. Good Job. Good Job.
Mr. Silverstein,
We appreciate your interest in our company and respectfully request that you continue your pursuit of gaming entertainment with any of our competitors nationwide. You are invited to utilize all of our non gaming facilities.
Thank you for your understanding,
Sincerely,
Casino Management
I'll bet a hundred bucks this guy is a net loser and will try to drum up publicity so he can write another loser book about how he was so a big winner they had to bar him.....hhhmmmm sounds like the other bunch of losers.
Comment removed by moderator. Comment contained an advertisement.
Why should any casino allow a player to have a "slight edge" to win? If a casino's policies offend you then play elsewhere, but faulting a casino (or any business) to operate profitably is untenable. Poor casino managment teams will make poor decisions but those are theirs to make (within the regulations of course).Those who take up a card counter's cause would never bankroll the game themselves but suggest others be required to do so? C'mon!
Some businesses have loss leaders to incite more traffic and casinos do the same with low minimum tables and some liberal video poker pay charts - essentially these play the role of promotional games - but to suggest a casino be required allow a gambler to play with a skilled advantage is not square according to Hoyle.
its the casinos they love to take it but hate to give it they can accuse you of counting cards or anything they want to get you out i lived in vegas for ten years played every night one night i got drunk as usuall i got up to 12,000 i started with a 100 they started saying i was cheating i was playing roulete i got to dollars then nickels they escorted me out i may of been drunk but i was honestly not cheating i quit i live in az now and left it behind me poweball is it for me now too much from the cocky pit boses.
Comment removed by moderator. Contained personal attack.
Comment removed by moderator. Contained personal attack.
So, what are you doing in Las Vegas?
- We're counting cards.
You're counting cards?
- We're counting cards.
That's interesting.
- We're counting cards.
I know you're counting cards, what else are you doing?
- Are you taking any prescription medication?
If Harrah's won't take his business, maybe he should go over to Planet Hollywood.
Harrah's could have avoided this lawsuit by simply banning him from ever playing blackjack at any of their properties-instead of banning him entirely from their property.
First place, if he was a GOOD counter, they'd never notice. Second, to respond the the posts that claim that it's easy.....they don't know what they are talking about. It is NOT an easy thing to do.....well.
Quote:
"Card counting's not easy but with practice, many people could master it."
That applies to electrical engineering, organic chemistry, hitting .300 in the MLB....but not too many people APPLY themselves to the extent neccesary to achieve. Same applies to card counting.
I believe that BJ books were all written by the casino's, bankrolled by the casino's, or were exploitation books aimed at getting some cardplaying suckers into thinking they could even the odds at a game that is HUGELY in favor of the house.
Throwing this guy out was probably just a PR gimmick to get more suckers into "card counting" and eventually build more business for the house.
Stick to craps, give up the vig, have a good time, don't bet over your limit, and hope for a lucky streak.
I'm wondering if anyone read his actual complaint. It appears that, if true, Harrah's trespassed this guy from all properties, merely because he admitted he payed attention to when aces were coming out.
That is NOT card counting, and does not, by itself, give you a mathematical advantage. However I have seen other players backed off and barred before, when their play, although it had some indications of paying attention to the cards, wasn't giving much or any true long term advantage. Some sweat joints just don't even like you to pay attention to what is going on, if you do, or in some cases even if you play perfect basic strategy, they'll back you off. But not bar you from all properties, that indicates something stronger.
It also may be, and we don't know this from what we're given, but it may be that he was always Wonging in and out of the game. This is when you won't play anything but positive counts, and anytime the count goes down, you just quit playing until it goes back up again. Either this person thought he could just sit at the table and Wong in and out at will, which would be basically like thumbing your nose at the PC's (Pit Critters) and saying "I dare you to back me off," OR he really didn't know what he was doing and the PC's merely THOUGHT he was Wonging and thumbing his nose at them.
I almost posted without adding this: it would be smart business to simply tell him no more blackjack, but encourage him to play other games, then you get the chance to win your money back, if you lost any. But that's just me I'm a bottom line guy, not a "get in a snit and show the customer who's boss" guy.
HARRAH'S CHEATS!!!
Since Harrah's is in bed with District Attorney Bernie Zadrowski (aka collection agency with a badge and gun) & the Gaming Control Board it has no problem continuously screwing people. Harrah's provides its high rollers with sex, drugs and booze and then cheats them out of piles of $$$ on the BJ table...heaven forbid someone uses his intellect to gain an advantage, he gets blacklisted and thrown out....i hope the FEDS put an end to this abuse of dictatorial power by the biggest thief in town....HARRAH'S and emperor Caesar...
Buyer Beware...the high limit BJ decks at caesars palace are rigged...u can't win...
HARRAH'S CHEATS...HARRAH'S CHEATS!!!!
There is an assertion that high limit blackjack decks at Harrah's are rigged.
Is there any evidence to back up that statement or is it just words on this page to just be viewed as such, with nothing to back it up?
While I am not necessarily a fan of Harrah's and everything they do, it seems that an assertion like that needs to be backed up with proof, or it cannot be seen as credible.
For those that are making judgments about Silverstein, it is very important to OPEN THE PDF FILE regarding the case embedded in the article and READ IT. Silverstein noticed all the Aces were gone. Period. Who doesn't. With electronic surveillance to back him up over the years, the man plays Blackjack 3-4 times a year for a few hundred dollars. His main issue about Harrahs is that he does TONS of business with very wealthy people at Harrah's establishments and this harms his business. What one has to understand is that Harrah's hasn't said "you can't gamble here anymore" but rather "you can't even come through the door." That bars him for restaurants,clubs, lodging, etc. Anyway, read the lawsuit - if anything else, read the letters at the bottom.
From what Mr. Silverstein's complaint alleges, I get an ugly feeling about Harrah's Entertainment.
A man who's enjoying an evening of cards casually
mentions he sees no point in playing a deck with out aces--a very sensible observation. Minutes later he's threatened by management with arrest should he so much as step into any Harrah's property in the West. The smell of overbearing power makes me want to vomit. The gist of his complaint is that Casino's want us to be suckers, if not, they'll gladly treat us like scumbags----
These, or course, are Mr.Silverstein's allegations. There are two sides to every story. This case might make it to trial. I can't imagine the casino egos backing down and letting the Plaintiff return to their properties. But then on the other hand, what kind of clients does this guy pander to that he must deal with them in Sin city surroundings?
"Card counting is not illegal, just flowned upon. Just like masterbating in an airplane."
He's hellbent on Harrah's and not going elsewhere because he has been 86d from ALL others. Fool
The best thing that can happen to a human being is to get 86d from harrah's....the dirtiest casino operator in town....
God save us from tyrant caesars palace!!!
Dear Messrs Silverstein and Loveman;
cc: all card counters
I believe I can offer a solution to your problem which I perceive to be the tremendous losses experienced by casinos which do not bar card counters.
My solution is a new game which not only welcomes card counters, it will convert them to assets in the form of celebrities which attract visitors much like Penn and Teller.
BlackJack eXtreme(r) is a proprietary game evolved from poker (or created by God if you don't believe in evolution), but patented by us.
The real point is that it's time to stop fighting the skills of blackjack card counters and embrace the future which will enrich your coffers.
You can actually play BlackJack eXtreme on Facebook, but soon on even more sites and eventually for real money play online and in enlightened European, Asian and tribal casinos.
Think about it. Card counting is not a skill to be feared and suffered at the expense of bad publicity (such as this article), but celebrated and elevated to the level of that of professional poker players. Yes, Gary, professional poker has done much to enrich your company through the WSOP. Why stop there?
Everyone on this thread, come on over to Facebook and play our demo of BlackJack eXtreme. Our real software which includes tournaments (using poker tournament structures including sit and goes) will be online in about six weeks, the good Lord and our programmers willing.
Can't we all just get along and stop all this arresting, banning and suing crap? I think so. Follow me boys, the promised land is just ahead.
Your's truly,
Virtual Dave
http://apps.facebook.com/blackjackextrem....
P.S. (Is this over-the-top self-promotion? Is is possible to be over-the-top with self-promotion in Las Vegas? Just asking.)
P.S.S: Beyond self-promotion my editorial point is that card counting is not really a problem for casinos. It's a myth that the casinos promulgate to imbue the game with the romance of potential dominance. But card counters don't dominate blackjack, in the long run the only way to beat the game is to play with impeccable adherence to the system for hours upon hours on end.
If you can do that, you can make a lot more money in less adversarial situations. I never met a casino executive who didn't chuckle when I brought up the subject of card counting. The whole thing is a publicity stunt for the players and the casinos.
PPSS: The real money is in BlackJack eXtreme.
I am curious how Harrahs casino in New Orleans operates without the state gaming control board. I have e-mailed 3 N.O. newspapers and can't recieve an answer.Also, I have asked many Harrahs employee's and they don't know either.
The casino industry spends an enormous amount of money to prevent a small cadre of card counters from winning 1/100th of what they have spent on preventing them from playing blackjack.
In the U S A today there are somewhere between 150 and 200 Card Counters - who are capable of winning enough to support themselves.
That surprisingly modest figure is a consensus pursuant to discussion with several full-time Professional Gamblers re: this topic.
Their numbers have significantly decreased in recent years as most of them have migrated to playing POKER.
Courts in NJ have ruled that casinos can not ban anyone for using a mental skill to play a game being presented as a game of skill. However, they can limit anyone to playing 1 hand at a time. They can pull the cut card in the middle of a shoe to blow your advantage if they suspect you of counting. They can ask you to leave if you create a disturbance when the cut card is pulled and/or if you verbally abuse any of the casino employees, i.e. pit bosses & dealers. I do understand that the casinos in LV are still deemed to be private property and they can ask you to leave for any reason and if you refuse or return, they can have you arrested for tresspassing. I don't know for sure, but would have to assume that this has been tested in the Nevada Court System.