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StumbleLETTER TO THE EDITOR:
Mosque backers misunderstand our Bill of Rights
Tuesday, Aug. 31, 2010 | 2:03 a.m.
Eugene Robinson, in his Aug. 17 column in the Las Vegas Sun, headlined “Good-faith mosque plan elicits GOP pandering,” tries to make the point that any objection to the location of the so-called ground zero mosque is just a Republican campaign issue to bash President Barack Obama and the Democrats.
He quotes Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney, all speaking against the mosque. He called these Republicans big-mouthed, small-minded presidential hopefuls.
How dare they oppose the Muslims’ simple desire to build a million-dollar, 13-story religious center a whole two blocks away from ground zero?
There is no dispute that Muslims have a right to practice their religion. But our Constitution doesn’t give them the right to build their mosque anywhere they please. They have a right to apply for a building permit, which is subject to New York City ordinances.
Robinson says the Bill of Rights protects our freedoms against the whims of public opinion. No, Mr. Robinson, it doesn’t. The Bill of Rights protects our freedoms against government tyranny.
Discussion: 16 comments so far…
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Jane points out:
"There is no dispute that Muslims have a right to practice their religion. But our Constitution doesn't give them the right to build their mosque anywhere they please. They have a right to apply for a building permit, which is subject to New York City ordinances."
So here's the law:
45 Park Place is located in a C6-4 zoning classification ("General Central Commercial") where houses of worship are allowed "as of right." Assuming that this particular proposed house of worship meets the setback, height, and bulk requirements of the Lower Manhattan special zoning district, the city's denial of a zoning compliance permit would be flagrantly ultra vires: Building inspectors, after all, cannot simply fabricate a new "honor-the-9/11-dead" zoning district on the spot.
The New York City Department of Planning confirmed with me that the proposal is "as of right," meaning it "complies with all applicable zoning regulations and does not require discretionary action" to get approval. (What The New York Times described as a "local zoning dispute " was an effort by some to get the city's Landmarks Preservation Commission to designate the building now at the site--previously an old Burlington Coat Factory--as a landmark, to prevent it from being torn down and replaced by the proposed Islamic center.)
Other land-use experts pointed out that if the city were to try to block the mosque based on zoning, its actions could be illegal based on a federal law that was passed unanimously by both houses of a Republican Congress in 2000.
This is basically what pundits call "the Silly Season," the period before an election where things are flung left and right and hope they stick.
And full fledged participants in shenanigans are the entire Republican Party. Because they have nothing to run on except tiresome old policies that got us nowhere, so they resort to whipping up and fomenting racism, xenophobia, race baiting, prejudice, bias, hate them people, hate that religion, just hate, hate, hate, and other propaganda...all with an eye to give the appearance they are draped in an American flag and those people over there are to blame, not me. All to get the votes. And get them cheap. Something for nothing.
It's all transparent. And I'm really not sure this strategy will work for them. One thing for sure...it's dangerous for America. Already, in New York City, a cab driver was knifed and put in a hospital...the perpetrator charged with hate crimes. In Tennessee, the site of a proposed mosque had four heavy equipment vehicles burned, arson strongly indicated. And it's really sad to point out...there will probably be more violence to come...all directly attributed to this Republican Party scorched earth strategy.
This all goes to show that Republicans will resort to ANYTHING to get back into power.
Their interpretation of this whole debacle is not to do the right thing. It's pandering for votes. It's nothing but party politics.
And it's going to backfire on them.
This Tea Party propaganda is so played out. You guys talk out of both sides of your mouth. You love Wall Street running us into the ground because you are the ultimate capitalist but when a religion that differs from your own, your racist beliefs override the capitalism at all cost beliefs. Proof again that the Tea Party is nothing more than a modern day Ku Klux Klan. Where were you people when Bush and Chaney where ACTUALLY whipping their butts with the Constitution? Oh that's right they were persecuting people who don't look like you so it was okay....GOP supporters are either rich & greedy or poor & ignorant.
Eugene Robinson is a disgrace. He is merely carrying water for the President. Why? Because Mr Obama made statements in favor of the Mosque (8-13-10). He later tried to do an about face but everybody in the world knows what his opinions are. Robinson would agree with anything Obama says because he is flaming liberal.
"Proof again that the Tea Party is nothing more than a modern day Ku Klux Klan."
Correction, deadan78. It's Ku Klux Klowns, not Ku Klux Klan; 'baggers don't like to be lumped in with just any old hate group.
Too bad our Politicians do not or will not understand our constution, they are much too willing to compromise it away.
OKRA: If the Tea Party is the modern KKK then Obama is the modern day Hitler.
Truth is HATE, to the parasite/socialist/Progressive CLASS.
"He quotes Sarah Palin ... all speaking against the mosque. He called these Republicans big-mouthed, small-minded presidential hopefuls ..... The Bill of Rights protects our freedoms against government tyranny."
Ham -- good points.
"The right wingers are all for freedom of religion ... as long as it is THEIR religion ..... I don't have a dog in this hunt."
TonyCrago -- also good points, especially the doggy reference. Too many here can't seem to grasp unless they have an actual stake in this particular national tragedy, their opinions don't mean squat. Kind of like the outpouring here of "my prayers are with you" for, say, a family that lost a child, but don't do anything more than that.
"Proof again that the Tea Party is nothing more than a modern day Ku Klux Klan."
deadan78 -- this shows you nothing about the KKK.
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Of course Manhattan inhabitants are not all against this Mosque, but the emotional overacters of course are ... they want to apply the classic Tolibone Party of No .... their usual double standards ..... so what else is new ..... these are the same dodo's who proclaim they hope our President fails
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
They are robots whose talking points are created and bought and paid for by the Koch brothers, billionaires, and Rupert Murdoch and his propaganda Fox News - now outed by Jane Mayer of The New Yorker ( Aug. 30 The New Yorker Magazine ) - this is a treasure if you want to get it and read the facts and truth , well worth the price
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
These monsters of billionaires fund the think tanks and institutes and associations and lobbyists under a subterfuge of fog and mists hoping the citizens of America never discover them, men of hate and domination, control, profit at any expense ---- they have now been publicized and they are hating it, the fools
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
These monsters of hate now try to hide from their publicity - they didn't want the citizens to see their double standards
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The prostitutes they now control, Oil Spill Sarah, LargeDickArmey, Newt Ginrich and all the others spewing out the identical talking points of hate and ruin have now been outed by the great investigative piece in the
Aug. 30 Issue of The New Yorker Magazine
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;;
Our free country is not so free after all it seems
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Don't Cry For Me Arizona
okra'
Hate groups?
The biggest group of hate groups is right in front of you as we speak.
The Great Unwashed speaks on these pages every day and you all hate the Right or even the slight Right.
You Democrats all have you heads up your shorts.
Look around you. The whole country has lost faith in your Messiah.
He ain't the guy!
Lets get off the mosque talk. It's just smoke anyway. The real subject is jobs.
The Nimby mosque phoebe's, like Fox News Sean Hanntiy, call for the "Iman to be investigated." Well what about Fox News? Mr. Witch-hunter? Rupert Murdock is moving News Corps headquarters to Abu Dhabi and Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin talal is now part owner. (Mayor Rudy Giuliani turned down a post 911 donation from the Prince, citing the Prince's support of Palestinian causes.)
Also, Hannity is partially syndicated by Citadel Broadcasting headed by Farid Suleman. Some talk show "talent" - such as Bay Area's now retired Lee Rogers, claimed that he was fired after 25 years at ABC/Citadel in the Bay Area, because he didn't curb "anti-Islamic" comments.
And of course check out the charges that Hannity's "troop charity," which was founded by Iran-Contra figure Oliver North, has spent too much on fund-raising verses providing benefits to troops.
Backed by "mysterious" Middle Eastern interests, shorting the orphans of troops out of charity funds with a "limousine lifestyle" fundraising overhead, Hannity should be targeted with his own "McCarthy-esque" style investigation.
The right doesn't want to talk about jobs because their laissez faire, tax cuts for the wealthy, deregulate wall street thieves policies put is in this crapper so the right gins up silly issues like Islam equals terrorists and a Mosque offends 9/11 victims to distract.
Boehner and McConnell tried selling deficit reduction when they voted against Unemployment Insurance but realized it was not credible when they said we need tax cuts that aren't paid for so this kind of issue is the best distraction.
I'm still waiting for someone on the right to come with any data to support their position that taxing the wealthy hurts the economy besides their self serving intuitive platitudes about socialism and making payroll.
I have a question for those against the "Mosque" at ground zero. There are somewhere in the range of 5,000,000 Muslims in the US. Do you believe that a majority of them are terrorists or have terrorist leanings? Actually support terrorist activities?
I'm really interested in your views and would appreciate a thoughtful response?
What exactly the Islamic center has to do with 9/11 has never been explained to me. The fact that the perpetrators happened to be Muslims is not a sufficient rationale for Harry and the others to oppose this (if it were a "Christian" center is would be okay?)
gbigs = a debilitating illness known as Glenn Beck Is God Syndrome G-B-I-G-S, . Symptoms are making one more stupid than normal and a desire to watch Beck's "I have a scheme" speech on TIVO over and over. There is no known cure because sufferers refuse treatments which consist of huge doses of reality and librium.
WillieTanner,
I never ever thought I'd say this but your last post was actually quite clever(gbigs=Glenn Beck Is God Syndrome).
I was wondering what gbigs meant when he said..."What isnt going to happen is that Obama Mosque will never be built." That's why we're taught in grade school English to avoid using double negatives.
Mitt Romney has bankrolled "Evangelists for Romney" - to try to grease the skids for 2012. The same anti-mosque bigots, will be out in force to short circuit Mormon Mitt's presidential bid. What goes around, comes around.
I guess no Mormon Temples near schools. After all the killing of women and children at "Mountain Meadows," it might cause such construction to be considered "insensitive."
Of course, we had Mormons having illegal underage SEX with children (e.g. Warren Jeff ET AL). But wait! Those were just "some" Mormons, who weren't "mainstream." You mean, like the Islamics who did 911 weren't "mainstream?" They were extremists? Like Jeffs? Oh. but that is different. Just ask Sean "paid by the Saudi Prince" Hypocite Hannity. Let's investigate! There are 57 enemies of America in Congress, just ask Sharon.
gbigs says, "To top it off? Obama spent a million bucks redecorating the oval office....."
Another sad reoccurrence of gbigs=Glenn Beck Is God Syndrome
Actually, the makeover was not done at taxpayer expense; the costs were covered by the White House Historical Association, a nonprofit group, through a contribution from the committee that paid for Mr. Obama's inauguration.
gbigs attempt to imply that the President spent taxpayer money is yet another sad chapter in gbigs losing bout with Beck Syndrome.
To contribute to a fundraiser for gbigs go to http//www.dumb#ss@fixednews.com/totalidiot
Part 1 of 2
Jan Ham's letter has got to be one of the most profoundly stupid letters to the editor which The Sun has ever published.
There is a dispositive Federal statute stating, in effect, that this "YMCA for Muslims" with a mosque inside, can be built in a commercially zoned area two blocks from Ground Zero.
Those angered by Muslims attitude towards Americans may not like the Federal law, but it is there, in the same Title of the U.S. Code as the Federal Civil Rights Act, to protect religious liberties in a practical way without leaving room for illiterates to argue about what the First Amendment means.
The Federal law, passed by Congress and signed by President Clinton at the urging of Mormon activists in Washington, is found at 42 USC 2000cc and says:
2000cc. Protection of land use as religious exercise
(a) Substantial burdens
(1) General rule. No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person, including a religious assembly or institution, unless the government demonstrates that imposition of the burden on that person, assembly, or institution--
(A) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
(B) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
(2) Scope of application. This subsection applies in any case in which ...
(C) the substantial burden is imposed in the implementation of a land use regulation or system of land use regulations, under which a government makes, or has in place formal or informal procedures or practices that permit the government to make, individualized assessments of the proposed uses for the property involved.
(b) Discrimination and exclusion
(1) Equal terms. No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that treats a religious assembly or institution on less than equal terms with a nonreligious assembly or institution.
(2) Nondiscrimination. No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation that discriminates against any assembly or institution on the basis of religion or religious denomination.
(3) Exclusions and limits. No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation that--
(A) totally excludes religious assemblies from a jurisdiction; or
(B) unreasonably limits religious assemblies, institutions, or structures within a jurisdiction."
gbigs writes:
"21 American soldiers killed in Afghanistan since Sunday. July is record for US Military Death in Afghanistan."
Gosh--who invaded Afghanistan again?
June 2004 (CNN.com: "Bush: Afghanistan is a Big Victory Over Terrorism")
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/15/karzai/...
Oct 2006 (Newsweek: "The Rise of Jihadistan")
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14975282/site/ne...
Nov 2007 (The Guardian: "Afghanistan Falling Into the Hands of Taliban")
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov...
Dec 2008 (Newsweek: "Winning in Afghanistan")
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/12/30/winni...
AP
Part 2 of 2:
The bottom line is that New York City's planning and zoning authorities followed the Federal law, and the building of the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" was approved.
I have no idea what Fox News and the Republicans think they can accomplish by ignoring the existence of this Federal law and encouraging crackpots like Jan Ham and Sharron Angle to pontificate on the First Amendment without any knowledge behind their opinions.
Instead, the crackpots should follow the lead of more intelligent Republicans like New York Republican Candidate for Governor Rick Lazio, and SOLELY ask the question "What Muslim organizations' money is going to be used to build this building?"
The old beat up building has already been bought, for $5 Million, by a Muslim real estate developer. At first, it looked like the money to build the building was going to be raised from foreign Muslim sources. The source of that funding, and limitations on it, was a legitimate legal question under post 9/11 Patriot Act related legislation.
However, given the furor created by legal illiterates like Ms. Ham and the pundits on Fox News, the City of New York's Finance Department has now offered to issue tax exempt redevelopment bonds to raise funds to make a "mortgage loan" available to this Muslim project's sponsors.
Nice going right wing crackpots. Ignore basic Federal laws while articulating your political opinions, and end up pushing the liberal establishment in New York into financing the building of the "Ground Zero Mosque".
Bottom line, if you truly believe that Muslims are taught to hate Americans, and want to stop them from building their community centers throughout the United States to stop them from preaching hatred and thereby putting the majority of the American public at risk, do it in an intelligent, manipulative way: Investigate and clamp down on their land acquisition and constrution financing, rather that espousing legally illiterate positions on the First Amendment like those of Ms. Ham, Sharron Angle and Fox News.
WillieTanner writes:
"gbigs attempt to imply that the President spent taxpayer money is yet another sad chapter in gbigs losing bout with Beck Syndrome."
Yeah, I don't think that rationality is gbigs' forte.
Posting false info is what he is all about. He posts it everyday, hoping that some of it will stick.
Meanwhile, he believes that evolution is a fraud.
That the govt should stay out of people's lives except in cases of abortion--then the govt should control people's reproductive rights.
gbigs is a weird mixture of religion and political propaganda.
He is more into a theocracy than he is into democracy.
Because the former requires no thought.
AP
AmericanPatriot has summed it up with his statement saying:
"gbigs is a weird mixture of religion and political propaganda.
He is more into a theocracy than he is into democracy.
Because the former requires no thought."
Of course, gbigs has no idea what a theocracy is or what constitutes propaganda....
In gbigs case, "ignorance is truly bliss" and gbigs is one of the most blissful people I have come across in a long, long time...
The Gump guy had it right...."Stupid is as stupid does..."
I simply repeat what I said earlier:
"In gbigs case, "ignorance is truly bliss" and gbigs is one of the most blissful people I have come across in a long, long time...
The Gump guy had it right...."Stupid is as stupid does..."
____________________________________
"And they have no disregard for human life."
(George W. Bush, on the brutality of Afghan fighters, Washington, D.C., July 15, 2008)
gbigs condition is quickly deteriorating. (gbigs) Glenn Beck Is God Syndrome has overtaken his ability to discern right from wrong, day from night, and "valiant presidents" from idiots.
You can help! send a donation to http:www.Istartedastupidwar.com/GWB/baddecider
gbigs:
Most people agree that Fannie and Freddie contributed big time to the problem. We all also recognize that the regulations that Fannie and Freddie implemented were written by HUD under Bush. (Yes I know you'll claim that Bush proposed legislation to change that which you claim was killed by Dodd, but as I said yesterday, why would he need legislation to change regulations he imposed. I've asked for the specifics on that bill several times and you have yet to give me anything but your usual generalizations.)
And control of the white house and congress concurrently by a single party has happened 50 years out of the last 98 years, i.e. more than half the time. Interestingly, 34 of those years were democrat. The only 6 years of republican control of both during the last 50 years were the first 6 years under Bush during which time the current economic problems developed. Perhaps the voters have a view that differs from yours
For you all that think gbigs is honest and only gives accurate information, I want to point out what he posted on Saturday. He said "I pay $1 million a year in taxes."
http://www.lasvegassun.com/users/gbigs/c...
The post was made at 7:05 on Aug 28. (That URL will evolve as he posts his daily 70 plus rants so yoiu might have to click "older" at the bottom of the page to work back to the relevant post.)
Notice he said "a year" so, to pay that much, you'd have to earn at least $3M each year after all your deductions and write-offs. Does anyone on this blog believe that? So those on the right who want to believe his so-called facts, we just ask you to consider the source.
Anyone what to bet, on the off chance there's any truth to it, its a trust fund?
Here is a learning center for those who want to examine islam, mohamad and his lunacy;
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate...
What needs to be considered is whether islam is a religion or fanaticism. islam can not be practiced in America without approving crimes against children such as rape and sodomy;
Why would anyone equate anything sacred about Islam is my question? If you have a young daughter; would you want to be a devout Muslim or offer your child to one? Consider the teaching of;
Ayatollah Khomeini's Religious Teachings on Marriage, Divorce and Relationships; "A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed."
1. (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215) Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife."
In the very next Hadith a woman complained to Mohammed that her husband beat her while she prayed. Mohammed told her to change her time of prayer or pray shorter prayers so that her husband could get on with the joy of beating her. (Reported by Abu Sayeed al-Kodri, Attest by Abu Daud)
None of this is a joke. This is the realism of islam, as insane as it is.
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Ten years ago a law was passed: Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. That Act protects religious groups to construct buildings.
"Republicans for religious freedom"
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article.....
The Pentagon was hit on 911, but there has been no outcry against the multi-denominational worship center there for religious groups-Christians, Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, and others.
The Vast radical extremist un-traditional republicans are just scapegoating/demonizing the Muslims as they have done with the invited immigrants, immigrants children referred to as "terror babies," African Americans, Democrats, Independents, Traditional Republicans, President Obama, and anybody that represents Democracy.
They not only scapegoat and demonize people, they do the same thing with the unemployment extension bill, the bill that would have helped homeless veterans, the Stimulus Bill (ARRA), the bill to aid small business, the bill to aid the states, the health care reform bill, and others.
Jane Ham's last paragraph says it all, only the convoluted illogic of the radical extremist un-traditional republican interpretation of the Constitution will be acceptable.
Their interpretations are the same "phenomological approach" used by Hitler and his despicable Nazi's.
gbigs said:
"Regulations [have] nothing to do with it."
Really? The HUD regulations in 2004 effectively required Fannie and FReddie (regulations have the effect of law) to increase the percentage of subprime loans they purchased. If HUD hadn't done that, no legislation would have been required in 2005. You keep blaming the Dems for the subprime mess but never give any basis for it? When are you going to stop merely repeating yourself and give us some specifics about how the Dems caused something that happened while GOP controlled both the White House and both houses of Congress?
"investment banks did not participate in subprime at all"
Well you are partiall correct in that wall street banks did not originate subprime loans but made more subprime loan money available by purchasing subprime loans from the originating lenders and packaging them into CDO's for resale with huge fees to banks that wound up holding them as "toxic assets". Had wall street not purchased the subprime loans, the originating banks would have stopped originating them. You do remember toxic assets don't you? They are the subprime loan packages which 'main street' banks bought from wall street and were the whole reason why there was a bank bailout.
"CBO says Iraq cost less than obamas stimulus".
Wow you are good at pulling out of context (either that or you only listen to fox news pull sh$t out of context). What CBO said was that the amount of money appropriated for the stimulus was more than the amount appropriated for the 8 years of the one war. But that release said far more than that. According to Reuters review of the release from CBO, it said that "President Barack Obama's stimulus boosted real GDP in the quarter by between 1.7 percent and 4.5 percent, adding at least $200 billion in economic activity.. . .It raised employment by between 1.4 million and 3.3 million jobs during the second quarter of this year". If you are suggesting that, if you would have preferred to eliminate either the Iraq war expenditures or the stimulus bill expenditures, its easy to pick which one was better for most Americans. That is unless you are still worried about WMD or think that helping Al Qaeda recruiting was in the National Interest.
It's interesting that some of the main funders behind the Tea Party movement have knowingly killed Americans in order to make a profit, similar to the cigarette industry. The billionaire Koch brothers, who own the second largest private corporation in America. They hope to deregulate as much of American industry as possible through their Tea Party movement, funding for the Cato Institute, etc. They also hope to squash the EPA and destroy all science that supports global warming, because they will save more money that way. Rupert Murdoch pretty much single-handedly created the "mosque at Ground Zero" story. The Koch brothers do the rest. A nice couple of fellas:
From the New Yorker:
"The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry--especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers' corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst's Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a "kingpin of climate science denial." The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies--from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program--that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus..."What they don't say is that, in part, this is a grassroots citizens' movement brought to you by a bunch of oil billionaires."
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/...
http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/comp...
The Tea Partiers should be proud.
AP
Here we go again! All these godless liberals vehemently supporting the mosque - (as if)
Again, I simply remind the world of the reality of these liberals if Tom Cruise was intending to build and finance "One Scientog Plaza" at or near ground zero...Could you imagine Bill Maher, Olbermann, Madow and Bloomberg's outrage?
Again, I do not need to extend my trust to the Muslims - All I have to do is look to the current "Muslimification" of Europe and their ground-zero! Just take a fresh look at Paris and London and Birmingham - with the skyline of Minarets, schoolgirl Burkas and hordes of rioting militant youth -
Again,I fully understand why there is no place for a 16th century death-cult in Manhattan.
"Again,I fully understand why there is no place for a 16th century death-cult in Manhattan."
Yes there are 5 to 7 million muslims in this country and if only we can move this one community center a few blocks farther from hallowed ground, we'll all be saved fro "Muslimification". Thank god because my wife looks horrible in a burka.
"16th Century Dealth Cult"? I just wondering what the reference is to? Is that a reference to the slaughter of catholics and protestants in western europe. Oh, if it is, the slaughtering was done by protestants and catholics and is the main reason why the framers knew we needed the "establishment clause" in the constitution.
I personally think all christians are evil child molesters. I am offended that they are supported by the government with tax deductible contributions. I think its unconstitutional for the government to fund these evil people that shoot doctors and bomb clinics in order to force women to bear children that are unwanted.
The catholic church funded the armies that conquered most of the western hemisphere, slaughtered indigenous peoples and enslaved 100's of thousands of Africans. They shouldn't be allowed to have churches in African American neighborhoods or near Native American reservations.
The Christian Bible tells men to own slaves, control their women and to stone adulterers and is every bit as bad as the qu'ran. The pope helped Hitler murder 6 million people in camps.
And the hindus, don't get me started there. THey've slaughtered maybe a million muslims in the years since the partition of India and Pakistan.
No question in my mind, god is the invention of the unholy to control the weak minded. Ban all religions.
AP,
The New Yorker article on the Koch's has already been ripped to shreds as a bogus article severely lacking in quality journalism....
http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/24/in-whi...
http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/25/the-of...
http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/31/the-co...
by the way, the Kochs have funded organizations like Reason and Cato which 1) support gay marriage, 2) support building the mosque near ground zero 3) want to end the drug war 4) fight against the overreaching police state
drop the dogmatism and stop listening too and reading works by political troglodytes.
by the way, Greenpeace reports are usually garbage (except the one giving the OK to eat Kangaroo) and Koch industries pollution is well below EPA maximums
gbigs, you do realize that secularists can also be Christians? Secular in the context of American politics simply means you do not force your religion on others via political power. Secular in the U.S. means separation of church and state (which, in complete agreement with free market theory, is the best thing that could have happened to Christianity or any other religion in the U.S. - look at Europe - government subsidies to the church dull the minds and ingenuity of their preachers and hardly anyone in Europe is religious today).
We shouldn't have to remind the Glenn Beck crowd that this nation was founded as a secular nation...
Patrick:
The Reason links you cite are not what I would call an authoritative shredding of the New Yorker piece. But then I actually read it all. Instead of a link to Reason, why not cite to something that actually contradicts the facts in the article you claim is bogus rather that to a right wing source whose premise is that the Kochs are no worse than Soros.
But even that isn't true unless you are a blind follower of an anti-regulation policy and blindly anti Soros' liberal policy initiatives.
Patrick, you're wasting your typing with that kind of information to gbigs.
Hss46,
All three of those articles have quotes from the New Yorker and then point out some glaring facts that shoot major holes in that woman's article. Read the pieces again. The New Yorker piece was shoddy journalism and poor logic at best (again those articles I posted really nail her on her lack of logic and consistency).
ps, Koch's money has gone to organizations that 5) opposed the war in Iraq 6) demanded Guantanamo be shut down 7) criticized Bush's economic policy
They've also funded museums, theaters, universities, and cancer research
gbigs writes:
"H Y P O C R I S Y is a disease, a left wing one."
Sure, gbigs.
Let's see--you are a Republican and thus want government to stay out of people's lives as much as possible (although show me a Republican administration in the last 30 years that has not increased the size of govt).
At the same time, you want govt to control a woman's reproductive rights.
A bit of hypocrisy there, gbigs?
Here's another one:
You want Sharron Angle to be our next U.S. Senator. Angle wants to dismantle the Dept of Energy.
At the same time, both of you want the federal govt to store the nation's deadly nuclear waste at Yucca Mtn, so that Las Vegans can get at those federal dollars.
Hmmmm. Again a bit of hypocrisy. Govt should get out of our lives, except when it comes to a woman's belly and to Yucca Mountain. Then in both cases the government is desperately needed.
In Angle's own words:
"[Question] Is there a Federal department/cabinet position you would support eliminating? Explain.
'Yes. There are several Federal departments that are not covered by the Constitutional Federal enumerated powers clause and should be given back to the states per the Tenth amendment. Those cuts should include the Department of Education, Department of Energy, Environmental Protection Agency, IRS code, audit the FED leading to cuts, National Endowment of the Arts, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, Planned Parenthood funding, funding of czars and more. I include these cuts in my economic policy for taking back our government.'"
http://nevadanewsandviews.com/2010/03/22...
Gbigs, I really think that a good, old-fashioned theocracy is more your cup of tea. No need for facts and figures, no need for proof. Unsupported opinions are A-OK. Evolution is banned and creationism is taught in schools. Religious law dictates govt policy.
Which appears to be the way you like it.
Would you agree, gbigs?
AP
Take this for example:
From the New Yorker:
The Mercatus Center [a think tank affiliated with George Mason University founded by the Kochs] released a report claiming that stimulus funds had been directed disproportionately toward Democratic districts; eventually, the author was forced to correct the report, but not before Rush Limbaugh, citing the paper, had labelled Obama's program "a slush fund," and Fox News and other conservative outlets had echoed the sentiment.
From Reason
"The author of that study was Reason columnist Veronique de Rugy, whose research found that congressional districts represented by Democrats received significantly more stimulus money than those controlled by Republicans (she relied on government data from the Treasury Department). Her original study was critiqued by stats maven Nate Silver (now at The New York Times), who thought that controlling for state capitals would explain the seeming differential. De Rugy in fact did another analysis and found that "Democratic districts...received 2.65 times the amount of stimulus dollars that Republican districts received ($122 billion vs. $46 billion)." That's some correction."
The New Yorker article is shoddy, shoddy journalism at best. At worst, she mislead readers by failing to acknowledge that the reports principal hypothesis - that democrats received the majority of the stimulus dollars - was in fact, still correct.
Another example: http://reason.org/trustees_and_officers/...
Remember, her horribly thought out hit piece was titled "covert operations"
can you spot her error in that article by clicking the link above?
more: http://www.futureofcapitalism.com/2010/0...
http://reason.com/blog/2010/08/29/thats-...
the kochs also fund organizations that 8) argue that the globe is warming and that man is contributing to it
The irresponsible rhetoric directed toward the future Islamic Cultural Center at Park 51 in NYC is giving inflammatory aid to Muslims around the world that may view it as an attack on their religion that is 1400 years old.
This scapegoating and demonizing of Muslims in the US is a detriment to General Petraeus's counter-insurgency plan in Afghanistan, and also our troops there.
The scapegoating and demonizing of any group irregardless of race, color, creed,ethnicity, or religion, just makes them stronger.
This irresponsible rhetoric by the radical extremist un-traditional republican "Things" and their Brownshirts serves as a recruitement tool for the Muslim extremists.
Why do the "Things" hate America? Are the big mouthed "Things" Al Qaeda operatives?
hss46 -
The 16th century death cult is today's Islam...Don't take my word for it...just count the decomposing bodies (or heads, they are often separated) on a global scale.
16th century's Christianity was also deplorable - but they evolved and laid down their Skull Flails for collection baskets and monthly missalettes.
Islam laid down their battle axes for mercury timers, Semtex and suicide bombers.
America does not need to wait to SEE what happens with the NYC mosque - We can see the example in just about every Western European City - Thank God the Baltics have not been so gullible as the EU...
Patrick Gibbons, of the Nevada Policy Research Institute, which is funded by the conservative Cato Institute and calls itself "a free-market think tank that seeks private solutions to public challenges" not surprisingly is pushing his company's and the Cato Institute's position again here.
Patrick is unhappy with a recent article published in the New Yorker that chronicles the Koch brothers, the billionaire Libertarians who, among other things, fund Patrick Gibbons himself through the Cato Institute.
Patrick writes:
"The New Yorker article on the Koch's has already been ripped to shreds as a bogus article severely lacking in quality journalism...."
Hmmm. Let me get this straight. You cite the magazine "Reason," which supports Libertarian causes--the same as you espouse--to rip an article published in one of the nation's pre-eminent magazines, The New Yorker, which criticizes the Koch brothers, one of the biggest funders of libertarian causes. Among the organizations they fund is the Cato Institute, which funds the Nevada Policy Research Institute, which pays you.
Very nice.
By the way, the very first link to Reason that you put forth is completely contradicted (retracted) in that same article. Did you notice that?
What interests me in all of this is your own stance--since we've had many conversations before, I know that you have yet to admit that American cigarette companies actually purposely kill Americans in order to make a profit off of them. Since your Libertarian theory posits that the unfettered free market provides the best of all possible worlds, it's interesting that the Koch brothers also kill Americans in order to make a profit, by producing tons of formaldehyde and doing their best to suppress information about the fact that it is carcinogenic.
Just a coincidence?
Personally, I doubt that many Tea Partiers are aware that their movement is funded by a pair of billionaires who I would call murderers. And that the reason they are so interested in supporting the Libertarian cause of getting rid of government regulations is so that they can literally make a killing.
Any comment on this aspect of the New Yorker article, Patrick?
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/...
http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/comp...
AP
AP,
Yes, I cite a libertarian magazine, which is supported by the Kochs, which rips the New Yorker article because unlike the New Yorker the Reason Magazine does something called "fact checking"
One primary example was the article's main thesis was that the Koch brother's are covert operators. Reality check - the Koch brother's names are all over organizations like the Koch Family Foundation, Institute for Humane Studies, Mercatus Center, Cato Institute and oh yes, one of them is even a trustee (printed on the website in plain site) of the Reason Magazine.
All the Reason articles, plus more, shoot glaring holes in the articles main points of criticism. They further shoot holes in the idea that left-wing funded think tanks are somehow watchdogs while right wing think tanks are part of some nefarious blot.
The New Yorker article was subpar journalism and shoddy logic. The woman should be embarrassed for her hatchet job of holes.
PS, carcinogens are everywhere, including in your food. Scarmongers say the word so ignorant people get scared, when in reality the minute exposure we have is not harmful at all.
More on the issue you raised: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/facts...
Evidence is mixed, what is available suggests there may be a relationship between the substance and cancer but only at unusually high levels of exposure over a very long period of time...
AP,
You've failed to acknowledge that the U.S. and state governments profit more from the sale of tobacco than the tobacco industry. And therefore, by your own (poor) logic, the U.S. government and state governments profit from the death of others.
Let's peel back a couple layers of the liberal mindset -- shall we?
They support the mosque because they despise the concept of Jesus Christ - They support the Palestinians because they HATE the Jew. I could list 200 examples...They loved Tookie Williams because they HATE the 'system' (The man). They love Keith Olbermann because they HATE Sean Hannity. They love Fidel because they hated JFK.
They are so predictable in that sense - If they oppose something they will by default support ANYTHING on the opposite side -- with wild-eyed enthusiasm.
PG:
The problem isn't that there are potential carcinogens in food, or that carcinogens in food rivals the killing power of cigarettes, the problem is that the producers and marketers of those carcinogenics and the products contaning them always fight to hide that information. For example, the battle over labeling. You are a big "free market" guy and one of the tenets of a truly free market is for consumers to have adequate information to make choices among competing options. If powerful corporations can, with CATO's and NPRI's support, influence legislation and/or regulation away from more and fuller disclosure, then you are limiting the fairness of the competition. If you claim that disclosing the content of carcinogens is a "scare tactic" you are saying that the market place can't handle it. The reality is, if one product contains a minor quantity of carcinogen and another product none, and labelling scares consumers into buying the latter, why is that bad? You have argued in the past in favor of allowing the market to make those adjustments, of allowing consumers to direct the market.
The problem here isnt' scaremongering by those in favor of labelling, the problem is that CATO and its ilk are funded by the current crop of successful entrepreneurs and they want to make it more difficult for a new generation of entrepreneurs to gain market share with a newer and potentially more attractive products. What happened to worshipping at the alter of free competition?
doubledown:
What tripe. I know jews that think Israel is in the wrong and believe strongly that Palestinians should have their own state and that the west bank settlements should all be torn down.
I personally like Olbermann because he's funny and don't take his comments seriously, and I've never even seen Hannity and have no opinion (although I have no respect for Fox in general, and that was the case long before Countdown was on the air) because I have known Murdoch's track record since before he bought Fox studios in the '80's.
I support the cultural center because to oppose it is unAmerican hatemongering against 5,000,000 American Muslins based on the actions of a few.
I was a fan of JFK and don't particularly hate Castro, although, like all leaders including JFK and Obama, Castro was far from perfect. Hell I even thought Bush and Reagan had some good points and I.
The problem here is that you are addicted to those kinds of generalizations that, while I'm sure have a grain of truth in them, don't really reach any meaningful level of reality. And so what if no one likes both Hannity and Olberman. Or likes neither of them. That has absolutely no impact on the merits of the issues. Try addressing the issues rather than labeling the proponents of those with whom you disagree.
The simple truth is, the community center complied with NY zoning law, was given the appropriate approvals and all the opposition is based the fact that it's "Muslim". Our constitution, which the Tea Party deifies, says the government can't discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation. End of story.
As I've said on these pages before, I think all "religions" are evil. I think if Jesus were alive today, he'd commit seppuku over what is done in his name by organized religion. I think God is laughing at us for destroying the world. And if you think that the fires burning in the hearts of the christians of the 16th and 17th century are a relic of history, you are blind to what people like Franklyn Graham and others say.
Religions aren't so much about "god" as they are about power. I'll start to trust religion when they stop asking for money and meet in peoples homes instead of giant temples of extravagance. I'll start trusting religion when they start preaching real tolerance. I'll start trusting religions when their hierarchies start admitting the sins of their members and beg the forgiveness of their adherents.
hs46
Like I said - So predictable!
HSS46,
Look at California, everything in that state can cause cancer no matter how little the risk. You seem to think any time someone finds a risk for something (no matter how small) everyone must jump with fright, ban it or otherwise behave irrationally.
If something is truly harmful, there should be a labe, once there is adequate evidence. How long do you think the Surgeon General's warning has been on cigarettes anyhow?
PG
No, i think that for the free market to operate, consumers have a right to know about the presence of the carcinogen and make their own decisions. Are you suggesting that some government agency should have the right to regulate whether something must go on the label only if that agency determines that consumers need to know? LOL Your giving a regulatory agency more power rather than less. What I'm saying is, take the regulators out of the loop when it comes to labeling and let them only get involved if the risk is too high to sell the product at all.
Looks like Gibbons is a big Koch defender. You get what you pay for.
Freedom of Religion gives the Muslim's the right to build their Mosque. -WHEN America changes it's values with knee jerk reactions such as the Patriot Act and preventing Mosque's from being built the terrorist's really do win. That's WHY the torture allowed and used under Bush was such a foolish mistake; it showed us to be the cruel oppressor that the Islamic terrorist claim us to be; and We proved their point. They way for America to prevail is by remaining true to our values and beliefs.
There are LOTS of things our system allows that we don't like; I don't like teapartier's carrying signs of Obama dressed in a Nazi uniform, and calling the President a Marxist. But I'll defend your right to do that. Should we not let the Catholics build any more churches? They've been responsible for some egregious acts of late. How bout Synagogues? The Israelis do some bad things too. What about the Southern Baptist's who threw bombs into occupied churches in the south in the 60's? You can see the "slippery slop". In America either we hold the torch high OR we don't.
We won't defeat Islamic terrorism with bombs and bullets- we WILL defeat it American Hearts and American Values and The American governmental system of equal justice for all- guaranteed by the Constitution.
One thing I love about you righties-your consistency! You all supported the war-you bought the lies one after the other about Hussein being responsible for 911, and WMD's, Then Cheney's famous "insurgency is in it's last throes" statement. (-we only lost another 4000 kids AFTER that statement). Then when no WMD's were found; -the reason given as to why we were there changed to Iraqi Freedom. So righties you think it was just a great thing to free the Iraqi Muslims-but think that American Muslims should not be allowed to build on property they lawfully purchased in New York. Ah consistency
How is it you righties adjust your beliefs on a daily basis?
Your "convictions" are as shallow as your memories. In case you have forgotten-One of the fundamental differences in the two parties are property rights-
Why Rand Paul thinks private a business should be able to serve whoever they want; as most of you do.
In case you have forgotten, YOU believe property rights are sacrosanct.
However, I guess your beliefs only apply to whom you want them to.
The Muslims OWN the property- now all of a sudden you change your "beliefs" to protect the feelings of the some people. HEY, weren't you just calling the left "bleeding hearts"?
What do feelings have to do with anything?
Do you people have ANY belief's that ARE NOT HYPOCRITICAL?
The conservative's ideas are so morally bankrupt it is just beyond belief!