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Blackjack payouts drop, but oh, those dancers!
Casinos moving to 6:5 ratios, but ‘party pits’ proving profitable
Krystle Lehr entertains gamblers Friday, Aug. 20, 2010, at Mandalay Bay’s “Party Pit” blackjack table area.
Thursday, Aug. 26, 2010 | 2 a.m.
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In recent months, more than two dozen tables paying 6-5 for blackjacks have surfaced in Las Vegas.
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Few things raise the hackles of loyal blackjack fans more quickly than casinos cutting back on what they pay gamblers for hitting 21.
But an increasing number of casinos are quietly doing that, reducing blackjack payouts by 20 percent.
One reason: The casino has to pay for that pretty woman dancing on the little stage in the blackjack pit.
Welcome to the next generation of blackjack player, the trendy younger crowd that wants to play cards in “party pits,” where the furniture has been rearranged to accommodate dancers. And some casinos are saying their costs are on the rise for other various reasons. In either case, casinos are reducing their blackjack payouts from 3:2 (meaning a winner gets $3 for each $2 bet) to 6:5 (winning $6 on a $5 bet).
Do the math: That’s a 20 percent reduction on the payout. For every dollar wagered, the winning blackjack player will get $1.20 instead of $1.50. Or you can skip the math and look at the woman on stage.
Old-timers may be incredulous that casino floor managers are getting more tightfisted with payouts, and take their business to better-paying casinos. But more casual players might not notice, or understand the significance, that some tables are paying out at 6:5. You can find the odds printed on the table felt. Or, hey, you can check out those dancers.
Dennis Conrad, president and chief strategist of the Reno-based Raving Consulting Co., sees both sides of the issue.
“When I first looked at it from a marketing standpoint, I thought it was a horrible idea,” Conrad said of decisions to change blackjack payment rules.
But Conrad said he’s not insensitive to increased labor costs, the cost of comping guests and the expense of new marketing concepts to attract younger gamblers.
On the other hand, he points out, the more favorable payouts for players will keep them playing longer, which benefits casinos in the long run.
“An alternative for the casino is to take some other expense away,” Conrad said. “So what do you do, do you eliminate comps or quit serving drinks?”
Many casinos are deciding that changing the payout formula is the least painful alternative.
The formula change comes as casinos are discovering how younger players want to spend their gambling money. Conventional wisdom has been that young players would gravitate to slot machines because of their skill and experience with video games. But more and more, Conrad said, the social interaction of the experience is drawing younger players to tables — especially in the party pits or those that use “dealertainers,” dealers who also entertain as celebrity impersonators.
The party pit at Mandalay Bay has brought more energy to the floor, said Rick Fields, vice president of casino operations.
“And it makes money every weekend. Our bar revenue there is 12 percent higher than other bars, and we have higher slot revenue in that area.”
Mark Gore, former general manager of the Hard Rock casino, saw similar successes with Hell’s Belles, dancers who perform in the blackjack pit.
The Hard Rock advertises the pit as a place where players can “test your blackjack skills while mingling with some of the hottest women in the world.”
The concept produces the best of all worlds for the Hard Rock — table minimums are $25 and often climb to $100 when demand is high, automatic shuffling machines keep the games moving quickly and players tend to stay longer to admire the eye candy. And the tables pay 6:5.
Gore said the company had to invest in a 25-foot stage and three poles for the dancers. After the first year, the drop, or money wagered and lost, at those tables was up 85 percent over the previous year, and in the second year, it was up 45 percent over that.
Anthony Curtis, who publishes the Las Vegas Advisor, is skeptical that the 6:5 payouts were introduced to offset rising costs.
“It was something they did because they knew they could get away with it,” Curtis said. “It’s all about what the market will bear.”
Curtis said most blackjack novices don’t even realize the casino is getting a greater advantage with 6:5.
“It’s a 1.4 percent difference in the house advantage and that’s huge,” Curtis said. “I don’t think anybody has seen any of their traffic drop off. People won’t go to another casino just to find a table that pays 3:2. But there are very few single-deck 3:2 tables anymore because customers did not rise up when this got started. There’s a vocal minority out there that you hear all the time, talking about how ‘the man’ is taking down tourists.”
CORRECTION: This story has been corrected to reflect that the change in the payoff formula from 3:2 to 6:5 is a 20 percent reduction. | (August 26, 2010)
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All serious blackjack players should boycott these "party pits". In the picture, they're even doing it on the cheap. The Rio and Planet Hollywood at least give you (or used to) an "eye candy" dealer along with the dancer. It looks like the casino in the picture gives you the plain old dogface dealer. It kinda reminds me of the cocktail waitresses in the regional casinos around the country where they squeeze a 200+ pound woman into an outfit that was designed 36-24-36...
Gaming revenue is down, so let's offer a game (6/5 BJ) to drive more gamblers away. This is total insanity. Maybe they don't care about gamblers and think they can make all money they need on the 20's crowd.
all the male players in the picture look young and looking for action. do you notice any older players with more playing experience sitting there ? they know better and they go to casinos that offer better odds, lower minimums and less expensive alcohol.
Casinos must think it is okay, b/c they have chosen to target the tourist market.
I suppose that is okay, but when I run into those tables I scratch the property off my list.
It's not so much the amount of play they will lose b/c me and the wife only take our player visitors out to play two days every weekend. It's the the number of marketing dollars it will take to convince us to even consider taking them to a 6/5 joint after they fix it to 3/2.
There's a sucker born every minute and the 6/5 games are full of them. We don't intend to be one of them.
This is what happens when you do not have gaming people running gambling houses. This was probably the decision of someone above the casino manager who is much younger than the casino manager and has no gaming experience at all. Stupid, dumb, insulting and gaming should stop this type of humiliation to the industry.
It's amazing how low some businesses will go when they get desperate!
but where are the HOT women dancers?
"Mom, I'm moving to Las Vegas to make my fortune!"
"Great, daughter, what type of work did you find?"
"I'm working in the entertainment industry, showing all my girly parts for $8 an hour!"
"What a coincidence, that's how I met your dad!"
Most of the posters on the Las Vegas Sun are older, as I am. Although I hate to admit it, I am very frugal, whereas the younger generation is willing to blow money to have a good time. The casinos are trying to go where the disposable money is, and although we oldsters have it, we don't want to part with it.
An article in Canada's newspapers yesterday will potentially have a huge impact on Las Vegas and maybe even 6-5 blackjack. DUBAI WORLD has put its half interest in MGM RESORTS INTERNATIONAL up for sale. If a loyal American buyer surfaces, who is willing to keep the profits in America (and not use them to build in Macau or Singapore), then Las Vegas may be back in business. If the new buyer has gaming experience, then maybe 6-5 blackjack will be discarded.
I NEVER play 6:5 bjack at these pits but I do ogle the women for FREE while walkin' by! Only morons play at these pits! lol
WTF cares? Let's go to the beach.
So,are you supposed to tip these ladies? Are they also strippers somewhere else?
Those guys in the picture might as well have a sign around there neck saying "I am a schmuck"
Back in the late fifties, early to mid sixties the well endowed female Black Jack dealers at The Desert Inn used to go topless after 12:00 A.M. It obviously was designed to keep and attract late night players, and quite possibly distract their play to the house's advantage. This 6:5 crap is robbery and yet another nail in the coffin of Las Vegas.
Hey Canada, Dubai World doesn't own a 50% interest in MGM international so how could they sell it? They own a 50% interest in city center and less than 10% of MGM stock. Could you please source the article where you read that? thanks.
The losers playing those "perpetual-shoe-machines" will rarely, if ever, notice the 6/5 payout on their blackjack hands...for the simple fact they will rarely, if ever, get one delt to them!
Playing a black box table is a bigger mistake than not paying attention to 6/5 vs. 3/2.
To JustMe:
The article about DUBAI WORLD is in yesterdays Toronto Globe and Mail business section at www.globeandmail.com.
Sorry if I misread the article.
And there you have it, Vegas has finally hit the bottom of the barrel. What else could these corporate idiots possibly due to destroy the gambling industry.
Say what you want but it was a great business move and bottom line, they are in business. The more the casino brings in the more taxes they pay to the state of Nevada to keep all your perks going if you live here.
"at those tables was up 85 percent over the previous year, and in the second year, it was up 45 percent over that."
Those are great numbers. Serious black jack players are not going to sit in that pit anyway so the payouts don't mean anything. That is card playing with Entertainment value.
Look at it for what it really is. A benefit to those that do want it and by those numbers a lot of people wanted it.
Me = Tourist
Frequency = Twice a year
home state = Texas
age = 38
Average 20 somethings have more $ than me? = NO
love to play blackjack drop hundreds & hundreds a day on it BUT if it is 6 to 5 or a min wager over $15 or $20 I'm not in, its just over with too fast.
Sorry, like to hang out & meet & talk & gamble, feel catered to & sophisticated.
Dear Casino Manager,
Congratulations on discovering a way to get 20 somethings to spend more $. I know times are tough and a 10% bump is a true victory. Sex, very creative.
I like hot chicks too. I'd rather be sitting next to a hot clothed one that knows enough math to play 3:2 blackjack, that I might persuade to come up to my room later than see a dancing one I'll never hit.
As a wealthier demographic I would encourage you to devise ways to make ME want to hang out & have fun. I'll get you the 20% revenue increase you really need.
I actually WANT to part with my money for you. Oddly that's getting harder. Thank you for fixing this.
Sincerely,
Mr Tourist
ConcernedNative: "This is what happens when you do not have gaming people running gambling houses." I think that's a very insightful statement and probably applicable to a lot of business, but gaming, especially.
With the exception of $5 bet on the World Series and Super Bowl annually, I'm not a gambler and don't really understand it, but I do believe that old Wall Street saying about "sticking to your knitting."
And reducing payouts? That makes no sense at all. Competition will will out on this, I'll bet.
This is an obsolute shame!!!! I never thought I would see a Director of Table Games stoop so low with this type of marketing. This won't last. Makes the casino look trashy and whorish. MGM is damaging their brand. As you notice, nothing by men at the table hoping to get lucky, with only ONE girl. What happen to the real gaming managers that offered a good game, friendly employees and reasonable comps? I talked with several employee and they are ashamed by this action by the table games department. They will not speak out openly, and they are not promoting this to the customers.
If they don't get naked, what's the point?
I often admire the dancers from a far, but if I go to the club down the street I can see them take their clothes off. Plus at the club my money just might last longer.
My last trip to Vegas I lost around $1000 and got $8 in comp points. I love Las Vegas, but the more I go the less I get.
"serious" blackjack players don't play with a six deck shoe. If you're a "serious" player, the party pit isn't for you. shut up already.
@DMCVegas: If you want to look at Naked women pay the $50.00 cover charge and visit the local strip club
I'm just over 50, I'm not a serious gambler. $5 a hand is big money in my book, so I don't much care about the payout I know I'm gonna lose money, I just want do do it slowly. Dollar B-J at the Sahara pays 1:1 on 21. A person can play for an hour on 10 or 20 bucks and get 2 or 3 free drinks, darn good value overall, I think.
I think the girls Dwontown may be better looking. I have no idea how it's possible that the Flamingo (along with the other Harrah's properties) doesn't have the hottest and best damcers, as deep as their pockets are, but the most talented dancers I have seen have been at the Las Vegas Club. Girls who move with a little dramatic pop, instead of the Stoned Out Shuffle.
I come to Vegas every 5-6 months and I NEVER play 6:5. I won't play continuous shuffle machines, either.
Whats wrong with offering a party pit and a regular pit?
Sour grapes from most above. If you offer both, witch most do, you get the revenue from both markets.
What does it matter to the unsophisticated gamber whether it is 6:5 or a 3:2 layout. Not only do they not know the odds, they also do not know whether to stnad pat or take another card. You could give them 2:1 odds and they would still lose because of poor (untrained) gambling decisions.
The craps tables also shows how unsophisticated most visitors are hwen they they overplay the field, the hardway numbers, or anuthing else other than pass/come lines with full odds.
Would one of you Locals be kind enough to list a few casinos that might have 3:2 Blackjack next week?
I'll be in town for the week leading up to Labor Day & while I like the hot female dancers to look at while I pass by the tables that pay 6:5 it would save me time to go straight to the casinos that play the game I know & love.
Here's my ideal criteria.
$5 min bet - prefered (this allows negative progressive wagering to go up for hours & hours without becoming stressful, I'll make $600++ bets, just not on the FIRST bet thank you)
Big shoe? - Don't care, not counting cards take it or leave it.
Great Comps? - Nice but don't really expect this at low min tables, no problem.
Prompt Free Drinks? - I don't drink but it sure is nice to be asked if I want anything every 10 or 15 min.
On Strip? - Well I hope so, or downtown, but I'll explore other places too, why not?
3:2 BJ payout is the single most exciting part of this card game
Oh & I don't mind gambling at the off-peak hours at 8:30 AM or something to get the right game, no prob.
Thanks ! !
id buy that for a dollar!
Even if my wife would let me go there, ( Which she wouldn't ) I think I would get so flustered, I would start hitting on a 19, or 20. lol Not good for old men.
Pretty much every place on Fremont St. has a party pit AND 3:2 payout, along with lower table minimums. MGM has to pay for their $8 Billion office complex disguised as a casino somehow.
BushDepression, I am 100 per cent with you on your strategy. When I play videopoker I watch from the side while playing 100 per cent machines. This is also fun and not as bad as 6:5 black - "check".
From Switzerland
I imagine if the dancers are kept, down the road they will be asking for their share of the dealers tips.
To hard2hit:
I am a dealer at Mandalay Bay. All of our multi-deck Blackjack games pay 3:2 on blackjack, except for the games at the Party Pit. The 6:5 blackjack payout is akin to an "entertainment" fee when playing at the Party Pit, but 3:2 is readily available at Mandalay Bay and is, in fact, our primary blackjack payout.
You're most likely to find a $5 minimum game earlier in the day, especially mid-week and during a non-holiday period for brief periods of time when the tables are not busy. Once the tables get busier, the minimums are raised to $10 during the day and often $15 later in the evening. It does depend on how busy the tables are and some other factors as well. The general $10 minimum is pretty much the standard on the strip. But, Mandalay Bay always grandfathers players, so if you start at the table with a $5 minimum, you will be permitted to stay playing at the $5 minimum for the duration of that play session even when the minimum is raised for new players.
Another thing you can do, if you see empty tables and the minimums are higher than you like (say for example $10 minimum at an empty table early in the day and you want to play $5), is to ask the floor supervisor if they'll allow you to play at $5. If they say no or that they're not authorized to approve this, then as the next step, you could ask to speak with the pit manager. They have the authority to review this and will try to accommodate your reasonable requests to the greatest extent that they can. I can tell you as an employee at Mandalay Bay that customer service is a very high priority. So it never hurts to ask for a special request. Do bear in mind that the requests need to be reasonable, taking into account what you are asking for and when you are asking for it.
Good luck. I hope you win some money while you're in Las Vegas and most of all, I hope you have a really great time!
Hey, I think the girl in the picture in pretty...come on now!
Golden Gate downtown has the best dancers! Lots of energy, and most can actually dance rather than just "shuffle." Party pits are too noisy on the Strip. Better downtown.
Just don't go to Fitzgeralds on Freemont st. They kicked my daughter who was playing all night out of the casino for helping her dad into the restroom. She called out before pushing his wheelchair in for him and they kicked her out of the casino. The restroom was empty, except for her and her dad.
Thats show biz
Only in Las Vegas
For the visitor to las Vegas go downtown to Fremont St.Play Blackjack at the Plaza,Las Vegas Club or Golden Gate free dance show,drinks and comps.The odds suck but a good time,remember nothing is free in life.
I don't think 6-5 is a big deal since how many blackjacks are you going to get anyway, every 15-20 hands?? What I don't like is continuous shuffle machines, get rid of those.
..."test your blackjack skills while mingling with some of the hottest girls in the world" ...
You gotta' be %$^# me !
The Party Pit should really be called a "Ploppy Pit."
6/5 blackjack is a scam by greedy casino operators to take advantage of novice players or 1x a year Las Vegas visitors. When you factor in the house edge of 6/5 blackjack combined with ploppy stupidity on hitting, double downs, splits, etc., you have a house edge of 5%-10%.
The party pit ploppy would be better served just playing double zero roulette. There is no decision making needed, it is a game of pure chance, the drinks will flow just as freely, and the view is just as nice. As far as I know triple zero roulette has not been implemented -- however I am sure Harrah's is taking a look at that change...
A person with even the slightest knowledge of gambling knows to stay away from 6/5 blackjack --whether it is a party pit or just a standard table.
Like I have said before, people will only take so much abuse from casinos before they take their business elsewhere. 6/5 blackjack exemplifies this attitude. Throw in price gouging on food and beverage, waiting an hour to check in, sour faced employees, toke hustling dealers, etc., people are just fed up.
Check out my LV blog if you want insightful commentary on this city:
http://jimmyhoofa-lv.blogspot.com/
MBDealer
That was a very pleasant post I knew from my experience that you could grandfather in on the limit raises, However I did not know that you could request a lower limit table, It does make sense to lower a table that is being staffed and no one is play in order to stimulate playing thanks for that tidbit.
My strategy goes like this now I quit doubling on everything and I quit splitting on the ones "The Book says to" and this has increased my take and if I do play 6:5 I never take Insurance and if allowable I will take even money a piece pie is better than no pie.
Now about the ladies ditch these DEJA VU and Little Darling rejects and get a book from the smut box on the corner and call one to your room $200.00 bucks and you get real entertainment no teasing.
I won't play 6:5 blackjack. If I play blackjack it's at the Venetian/Palazzo at 3:2. I then spend $200 for dinner for a good steak. I tip my waitresses well at the table. And I'm loyal to the place. It's like GM saving money by putting cheap power windows and plastic in cars. Soon, the product is junk. But the government won't bail the short-sighted casino's out. There is no second chance for this kind of failure. Play at your local Indian casino before you travel far to get screwed. At the table that is. And if you're not playing five bucks a hand you may as well just hand over your wallet. No wonder Vegas is dying....
Oh I never split Aces anymore either I will either hit them or double down on them but I quit splitting them because it was always a push or a loss but hardly a win.
@MB Dealer:
Nice post. I still think 6/5 sucks and party pits are lame, but I think you made some good points.
$25 min. is the lowest double deck I have seen in there, correct? Usually it's $50 if it's busy, right? If you want double deck you have to pay a price?
During what shift is it most sweaty in the blackjack pit? Are there some times when an AP can push it more, without the hammer coming down? I played there are about 3 months ago with friends and it got sweaty in there after about 30 minutes. Care to share any inside info?
Check out my LV blog:
http://jimmyhoofa-lv.blogspot.com/
MBDealer...
Wow, you explained things better than the newspaper! Thanks! Think I'll try Mandalay Bay
skisickie...
The Fitz pit boss has sometimes remembered my name even 6 months later. Amazed to hear that 'bout them but will stand with your family & try what
wolf85023...
Suggested & stick to the Plaza, Las Vegas Club or Golden Gate downtown. And per
sandy_astroglide...
I'll get the show AND 3:2 blackjack downtown too. (quite a dancer's screen name sandy a)
But will there be any women at the tables playing along side me if I sit in a party pit area? Straight ones?
And what's this new strategy of not splitting the aces? Huh? Seems like the straight up math says the split is better. But that aside it seems the same being excited to have been dealt a 2 as my 1rst card, they call it the "dealer's ace" because it's good when the DEALER gets it, not the me & U..
samjung23...
she IS pretty, the fluorescent lighting is just bad. Photographer clearly male. I also agree with
lightfoot...
cheap things are seldom good and good things are seldom cheap, but if the min wager is $25 or $50 I'll just skip the 5 min of BJ & be 5 min ahead of you eating the $200 prime cut
Thanks Guys! Y'all Rock!
To the dealer who commented above from the MB, I ask to be grandfathered in at $10 when the pit boss raised the min to $25. You would have thought I committed a crime. Never go there again. I have not played bj on the strip in years because of lack of 3:2 and single deck. Switched to Craps.
hard2hit - aside from mbay, I was just at tropicana and they had abundant $5 3:2 games (hit S17) even on Friday and Saturday nights... both shoes and continuous shuffle. They had a $5 double deck pitch game, but it paid 6:5.
I guess they have a stay on S17 table as well, which I believe was $10 min.
Their casino is a bit "boring" so to speak. It's small, uncrowded, well lit, and the music is played at low volumes. I personally enjoy that sort of thing, as I think it lends to better service.
From the look on the floorman's face in the 6th photo of the gallery, the dealers could be paying 3:1 for all he cared! "Rating card? Marker? Go to hell, pal, I'm checking out the floozy" :-P
"NOBODY ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." H L Mencken
I always thought the drop was just the money wagered, not neccessarily lost.So when it says that the drop increased by 85% it doesn't mean there was 85% increase in profits. Although such an increase in drop, as I know it,would still be very welcome.
Didn't Ceasar's just get fined $250,000 for some moron dancing on the baccarat table. Now casinos are decreasing the BJ payouts and hiring their own morons to dance on a stage near the blackjack tables. Have we all lost our minds.
3/2 was the reason I played. Babes are, well, look around man, everywhere.
It's like dinner w/ no dessert; sex w/o the climax.
I feel baited and switched; but don't let Daria know. I love the way she shimmies and grinds!
Kudos to the agent of Krystle Lehr for getting her T&A posted eight times in one news article.
Please do not publish these derogatory comments about the 6/5 blackjack game (can it REALLY be called blackjack when the payout on the hand the game is named after is significantly altered).
The casinos may get the idea they are starting to harvest resentful customers and do away with the laughably casino biased 6/5 game. Evidently, they don't realize that short term profits don't always translate into long term profits, as customers begin to offer their loyalty to casinos which offer better value. But that is fine. There are still plenty of unsuspecting, uneducated people out there, but let's keep them in the dark. Bring on the 6/5 game, the more the better.
As the masses become more educated about how laughably horrible this game is, and how significantly different the payouts are from one game to the other, they may even stop playing such horrible games. No! Let's keep them in the dark! We can't have that!
You see, it's important for advantage players that a large percentage of players lose, the more the better and the quicker the better. Let them part with their money quickly! When casino profits increase, casinos may be more tolerant of winning players, realizing that the infinitesimally small percentage of profits that winning players take home isn't really hurting anybody, other than some V.P.s bonus check, which somehow doesn't really bother me.
Get out the bullhorn and shout it from the rooftops: BECOME A WINNING PLAYER AT 6/5 BLACKJACK!!! Casinos like it when we win, don't they? Isn't that what the commercials say?
Jimmyhoofa:
Double deck at Mandalay Bay is a mid-limit game so the minimums that you observed would generally be those in effect. The double deck and single deck games are closely watched at all times, so, as far as I know, there aren't certain times when advantage play would be less noteworthy than at other times.
At least at the "Party Pit" at Mandalay Bay they have a craps table with $10 minimums at the end of the stage. Not so with Luxor and Excalibur, the other two casinos with "Party Pits".
The casinos in Vegas will do anything to steal your money, and here is just another example.
If the twenty-somethings want to sit and throw their money away, I say let them. Just make sure, Mom and Dad, when they come home to you and ask for rent money, you know where they lost theirs at!
Any smart gambler knows not to play at these types of tables, and soon enough, the casinos will figure it out too.
When Imperial Palace was independent they started the idea of party pits when they had their impersonators deal 21. It has caught on but I will not play blackjack 6/5
Well if you don't like getting robbed blind by a Casino Co. then stay away from the --- Resorts International (the Lion) properties new slot machines. They have adjusted alot of their new machines just last week to payout lower jackpots, instead of 400 .25 they now pay 250 on the jackpot. Also changed the percentage win from around 92% to 85.6% I was casually watching a few slot techs doing that. I was playing on a bank that they mentioned they would come back and fix later when there are less people on the bank. It was all done so quick by touch screen. When I finished playing I left the Strip for the Orleans.
Do these young trendy players actually think they are going to take this dancer up to their room?
Maybe they should have topless keno sellers the odds on winning and taking the girl home would be about the same.
corporate=GREED
funny that nobody mentions that the 6:5 takes money away from the dealers. This is also part of the big picture. Instead of giving the players a $2.50 chip it is just a dollar so when it comes time to tip there is less for the dealer. What about when you get a BJ for $24 you get 6:5 on 20 and even on the 4... Screw these Aceholes, I was always told that the crooks were all gone from the Casinos in Vegas I guess these Wall Street guys are real crooks.