Facebook
Fark
Digg
Reddit
Stumble
Tuesday, Aug. 24, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Reader poll
Sun Coverage
Sun archives
- State education officials fear deep cuts for public schools (6-14-2010)
- School District’s budget woes prompt shuffling of administrators (6-15-2010)
- Jim Rogers offers to lead Clark County School District for free (6-9-2010)
- Clark County teachers sweating out the budget crisis (4-22-2010)
- ‘Almost catastrophic’ budget cuts on horizon for Clark County schools (4-22-2010)
- Clark County teachers face peer pressure on furloughs (4-9-2010)
- School Board rejects moving schools to nine-month calendar (3-26-2010)
- Year-round schools could face calendar shift to save money (3-16-2010)
- Teachers resist increasing pressure to accept pay cuts (2-5-2010)
- Budget crunch puts shorter school year, teacher pay cuts on table (2-4-2010)
- Gibbons: School districts should brace for 10 percent cuts (2-2-2010)
This is how unwilling higher education officials are in working with Gov. Jim Gibbons to negotiate budget cuts: Not only will they not discuss them, but they’re talking about needing more money.
In a strategy tantamount to poking Gibbons in the eyes, the Board of Regents will consider a budget this week that would raise state spending for higher education from $1.14 billion this biennium to $1.19 billion in the coming budget cycle, an increase of 4.5 percent.
Chancellor Dan Klaich said the budget reflects what the system needs to continue to function.
But that’s not what Gibbons’ budget office has sought. It wants state agencies, including higher education, to identify by Sept. 1 how they’ll cut their budgets by 10 percent. And most state agencies comply because the directors serve at the governor’s pleasure. But the Board of Regents, which oversees higher education, is independently elected.
The issue playing out is whether the higher education system is showing strength by refusing to offer a reduced-spending plan, or whether it would do itself a favor by showing where the cuts would be to gain public sympathy.
Higher ed doesn’t like to back down. Two years ago, in advance of the 2009 Legislature, then-Chancellor Jim Rogers refused to identify cuts at a time when Gibbons was proposing slashing state funding by 37 percent. The Legislature had to intervene, whittling that down to 13 percent, though many cuts were offset by federal stimulus funding.
The regents will consider the increased budget at a meeting Friday.
“Anyone who understands what’s happening in politics and economics today knows we’re in a fight for the heart and soul and future of Nevada,” Klaich said. “I can’t understand why anyone would want or expect me to surrender that fight seven months before the fight is engaged.”
This scenario assumes that budget cuts are a negotiation, and Klaich doesn’t want to be in the position of someone who offers to sell his car at a below-market price, only for the buyer to press for still more concessions before a deal is struck.
But while legislators have little affection or patience for Gibbons, those hoping to make the case for tax increases say higher education should identify where it would make cuts, so that voters understand what’s at stake.
Assemblywoman Sheila Leslie, D-Reno, said the higher education system could be hurting its own cause by not laying out specific cuts early and often.
“If the system is going to collapse, let’s talk about it,” she said. “The public is not going to support new taxes unless they fully understand the consequences of what budget cuts are going to be.”
She said that without specifics, the cuts are just an amorphous number that the public assumes can be found through cutting waste and fat.
“We need to have that dialogue now and lay out the ramifications in a factual, non-hysterical way,” she said, “even though public reaction will, I think, be fairly hysterical.”
As chancellor, Rogers engaged in — and seemed to enjoy — open warfare with Gibbons. He refused to submit cuts, arguing that any loss in funding would cripple the system. Klaich has a gentler relationship with the governor’s office.
Gibbons’ Deputy Chief of Staff Stacy Woodbury would say only, “The executive branch and this governor are tasked with presenting a balanced budget. We will provide a balanced budget.”
Last session, that meant the 13 percent cut in state funding for higher education.
Other agencies are playing ball with the governor’s office, one former senior administration official noted, pointing to how the Health and Human Services Department clearly laid out what the effects of cuts would be on the services it provides to the poor and elderly — old people losing dentures and hearing aids, the mentally ill and developmentally disabled losing housing.
“Higher ed is higher ed,” said the official, granted anonymity to speak frankly about the budget process. “They didn’t want to give anybody their budget, the legislative branch or the governor’s office.”
Asked the most effective way to fight against cuts, the official said: “The best strategy anytime to push against cuts is to show what it’s going to do.”
To be sure, preparing for budget cuts isn’t easy, particularly in a higher education system where proposed cuts go through multiple layers of reviews by campus presidents, faculty and an independently elected board.
With Gibbons’ loss in June’s primary, the incoming governor could very well have a new policy direction, though both Republican Brian Sandoval and Democrat Rory Reid have promised not to raise taxes.
“With the economic and political situation in this state so greatly in flux, who can know what a budget will look like?” Klaich said. “I think laying out countless scenarios of what could occur is not what the people of Nevada want us to be doing.”
Still, the debates during the 2009 session and in subsequent budget cuts revolved around a number — a 13 percent cut in state funding in 2009, followed by a 6.9 percent cut in February — rather than in terms of specific programs to be cut.
Take, for example, the February special session called to close the state’s $800 million hole. Taxes were taken off the table and conservatives cheered the combination of cuts, fees and taking money from various local governments used to balance the budget. When UNR proposed eliminating its College of Agriculture, many of those same conservatives from rural Nevada protested.
Klaich said the higher education system would surely articulate the effect of budget cuts before the process is settled next summer — as, he said, it has done in the past.
“When the political process came to an end,” he said of February’s special session, “we laid out very clearly what the impacts of the cuts would mean.”
But by then, the decisions had been made.
This may or may not be the way to go about standing up for education, but it sure is nice to see someone stand up to Governor whack-job Jimbo.
None of this has ever made any sense to me. I can see public schools arguing for more money but the last time I sent one of my kids to college, it wasn't free. In fact it was downright expensive.
Somewhere . . somehow . . someway it seems that the University has to get back to a budget that is closer to money coming in compared to money going out. Lots of redundant services on those campuses.
Also, why do all the campuses have their own Police Departments with mirror chains of command (Chiefs, Deputy Chiefs etc) and separate redundant budgets rather than a one system department? If you rolled it all together you could have one chain of command and administrative division for the entire System of Higher Education instead of the 5 or more currently in place. Kinda like the Clark County School Police. Wouldn't make much sense to have a different Chief of Police and administrative staff for each and every High School campus is there? That's millions saved folks and that's just the Police. Chiefs are not cheap so why does every campus need one instead of having one Chief for the entire system. Hell UNLV has three Chiefs all by itself.
Apply this logic to the rest of the system and see what else can be combined without losing services. Can we please start thinking outside the box here?
Especially to HendersonNV (previous commenter): Downright expensive? Check out Nevada State College -- costs much less than UNLV or UNR. Profs there getting high marks from students. Nevadans, don't throw out baby with bathwater. Quality of life, which includes higher ed opportunities, is biggest factor in where jobs will be in the future. Want to find waste fraud and abuse? Look at pensions for police and fire----
I like to think of myself as a supporter of higher education. I have benefited enormously from it personally and professionally.
Seeking a budget increase (albeit a small one) as the system does during these economic times can only be described as hubris or arrogance.
For an institution that claims to be a necessary part of economic growth in this state, it is showing a total lack of imagination and innovation. Instead of leading through this crisis and remaking itself, the system is merely perpetuating the mess. The system needs to rethink and retool itself to respond to the economic realities of our times. Sound familiar? This is the same stuff the system peddles to students and the public, but it can't do for itself These guys have lost touch.
Way to pitch in guys and do your part.
This is a cart leading the horse exercise. The larger problem thats is the number of government UNION employees in elected office talk about a "conflict of intrest"
Yea, turrialba, you are so right.
Higher-Ed hasn't ante'd up yet, have they?
Please. Think before you hit "post comment".
Whether you agree or not with funding for education, at least understand that there have been SEVERAL ROUNDS of CUTS.
"Way to pitch in, guys"?
I'd say that of the MINING industry, but NOT higher-ed.
@gmag:
I did think long and hard
Higher education has taken some hits as has everyone else. The harsh reality is that it benefited far more than other sectors during the boom. Unhappily it will have to take a hit like everyone else during the bust. The university system has to be retooled to reflect the realities of the Nevada in the next decades--fewer programs to serve a population that is not growing at the rates of a decade before. The programs must be adequately funded and academically sound. Some hard choices will have to be made.
I have no problem taxing the mines--let's go--but wait no one can't get enough signatures to get the initiative on the ballot. These choices regarding higher education will nonetheless have to be made regardless of the tax status of the mines (the gold will not last forever)
turrialba..
I respect your comments.
As for Mining;
EVERY STINKING YEAR we hear the SAME PABLUM:
"Oh, we can't do that! It would take TWO ELECTION CYCLES because of the Constitutional Provision on tax increases; and THE GOLD WON'T LAST FEREVER, YA KNOW!"
Well, by gosh and by golly, them are a couple o' facts, there...
Of course if we'd have;
A) done it right to BEGIN WITH, by insisting on a reasonable rate of taxation for Mining,
-OR-
B) When we realized we were being SCREWED, acted to change the Constitution, instead of endlessly pointing out that it TAKES 2 ELECTION CYCLES...
How many "cycles" will go by where we make the SAME LAME CLAIM???
UNLV and UNR should work on that administrative bloat before the go asking for more money: http://npri.org/publications/poormouthin...
UNLV increased its administrative staff by 90 percent in the 15 years prior to the start of the recession and today has more administrators than instructors and UNR employs 1 person for every 5.9 students which makes them far more bloated than the Clark County School District.
Examining the University of Nevada, Las Vegas and University of Nevada, Reno data reported to the U.S. Department of Education, the researchers find a disturbing trend -- both universities have become more expensive and less efficient over time. From 1993 to 2007, inflation-adjusted in-state tuition grew by 56 percent at UNLV and 90 percent at UNR.
Total spending grew by 140 percent at UNLV and by 69 percent at UNR. Adjusting for student population growth, UNLV had 59 percent more dollars per pupil in 2007 than in 1993, while UNR's budget grew 21 percent per pupil.
Despite more resources, the universities became less productive, hiring more employees to provide an education for each student enrolled. At UNR the number of administrators per 100 students grew by 18 percent between 1993 and 2007 -- twice as much as the number of instructors. At UNLV the number of administrators per 100 students grew by a staggering 90 percent, even though instructor staff was cut by 6.6 percent.
That the number of administrators is growing faster than the student body says much about the real priorities within Nevada public higher education. And it shines new light on the inability of both UNLV and UNR to graduate 50 percent of their students within six years.
Higher education in the Silver State has a serious bloat problem. UNLV employs more administrators (3.8) per 100 students than classroom instructors (3.4), and has experienced some of the highest administrative growth in the nation. It employs one worker for every 8.6 students.
UNR, however, is the bloat champion -- employing one person for every 5.9 students. UNR is so swollen with employees, it actually makes the Clark and Washoe county school districts look like models of efficiency.
I realize this is futile, but gbigs et al, please take note there are no unionized state employees, in higher education or anywhere in state government.
Gmag..Why don't you stop typing and start reading?
HendersonNV pointed out the , in order to change the tax on mining there has to be a petition to change the law and then it has to be passed in two seperate votes by the voting public.
Sounds [to me anyhow] that you have an opportunity to stop your rambling rants on here and go out and practice what you whimper about every darned day!
I think I can play Patrick Gibbons game. Posts by people making stuff up has increased by 90% while the value of their content has decrease 199%. People who post with the same last name as a famous monkey make 25% more assertions with 100% less evidence. Polls show people who post a bunch of numbers hoping ignorant people will believe them are actually believed less then 1% of the time. This post has facts and figures that are 80% correct 20 % of the time.
Sorry Patrick but your daily dribble just can't be left alone. I hope readers can see it for what it is, or just skip over your rants.
Dr. Brown, maybe that is true, but who has AFSCME organized? Just local government workers? I've seen figures that suggest about 30 percent of all public employees in Nevada are unionized - no word on whether that is federal state and local or excludes state workers as you suggest.
It seems to me, based on recent LVRJ articles on budget cuts, that AFSCME is bargaining on behalf of at least some state workers.
Fun fact: About 16 percent of all workers in the state (public and private) are unionized.
Skepticnevadan
Data comes from the U.S. Department of Education's Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System as collected directly from UNLV and UNR.
http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/
More on administrative bloat in higher education:
http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/articl...
http://www.deltacostproject.org/
http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/newsroom/highli...
Comment removed by moderator. Flaming
Patrick the opening stat in one of your sources says "Enrollment at America's leading universities has been increasing dramatically, rising nearly 15 percent between 1993 and 2007." EVERYONE knows Nevada's growth in this time was faster then the rest of the nation. Even if your stats are somewhat accurate don't you think we needed more admin if we had more growth. Dumb question, of course you don't. You want to believe "for every 100 new students at UNLV admin grew by 90%". Where are the actual numbers for those percentages? Produce the hard numbers and just maybe someone might start to believe them.
Pat's the expert.
Just ask him!
If you actually read my statement you'll note I said the percent of admins per 100 students increased 90 percent at UNLV and 18 percent at UNR. The 100 students figure stays the same, the number of administrators per 100 students rises. Read carefully.
You will also note that the per pupil expenditures have increased by 56 percent at UNLV and 21 percent at UNR
That means they have more dollars and more workers per student.
Btw, economies of scale would suggest, if these entities were competently run and efficient, would need fewer workers and dollars per student with each additional student enrolled.
Lots-ah people want Lots-ah things. Tell them what we tell our kids. I would like to buy that for you, but we don't have any more money. The answer is NO !!! The Bank is closed !!! Cut Spending - Cut worthless majors like African American Studies and Chicano Studies, etc.
@gmag39:
The economics are very tough. One way to keep tuition costs down is to control costs. Right now UNLV has 28,000 students and 220 gradulate and undergraduate programs. UNR about 17,000 students and 145 programs. About one program for every 125 students. Additionally, there is the community college system. This is the system which requires support, regardless if the programs are uniformly excellent or not from a number of sources including donations, state funding, grants and tuition.
The way the game is played out is that everytime state funding is decreased, tuition rises and some costs maybe cut. The system of higher education penalizes students.
The reality is that state revenues will not improve for the forseeable future for all government programs. The only thing the system of higher education offers is to retaliate through higher tuition.
This misses the point: that costs must be contained so to minimize tuition impacts and reflect the unpleasant realities of tax receipts in this state.
Maybe the universities can't be all things to all people at all times. The mission and purpose must be sharped and focused to meet priorities. Some activities may have to abandoned. This is what the Chancellor should be doing in these times. Instead he is doing a Gibbons: here is my budget take it or leave it.
To me this is the problem and the Chancellor seems to offer no workable solutions.
Patrick:
I think we maybe close to agreement today.
So the Gibbons stool pigeons on the the PEPB board vote to decimate State Employee benefits while Higher education can ignore Gibbons. Sounds fair to me. Just another Gibbons plot to ^&^ the state employees before he leaves.
Jbond,
It seems some benefits, like health care, might be twice as expensive for public employees than private sector employees. We should make sure we're aren't paying for thinks like Viagra coverate (which the Milwaukee teacher union sued to get back).
There is a simple way to fix this;
SAVE 4 BILLION $s ON NEVADA'S NEXT BUDGET
The next bi-annual budget (2 years) is 3 Billion Dollars Short
SOLUTION;
Nevada pays 1 Billion each year OVER and ABOVE what private sector
gets, to appease the Public Unions (like 150K cops & fire)
STOP IT NOW , do not extend 1 more contract 1 more day UNLESS IT
IS AT Private sector pay and benefits level
For those who whine for the 150K fire & cops= the national average is
50K for each (and 70% of all U.S. fire fighters are volunteers)
BTW, Nevada has a cost of living that is EXACTLY the national average.
Nevada also SPENDS hundreds of millions a year due to illegal aliens.
Contact NV legislature
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/general/feedb...
state senate info w/ e-mail
www.leg.state.nv.us/Senate/Current/Senat...
assembly contact w/ e-mail
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/75th2...
Are these guys kidding? Their taxpayer-provided limousines must have curtains on the windows. The economy is collapsing buddy! If the state raises tax rates revenues will go down as the higher taxes strangle economic activity. We realize that you state employees believe yourselves to have guaranteed lifetime employment with built-in budget increases but in this you are sadly mistaken. The failed Keynesian doo doo is hitting the fan. The tax hike that will take place in January when the Evil Bush Tax Cuts expire will further tank revenues, both for the feds and for the ever more greedy state governments. The university system will be lucky if it doesnt get worse cuts than the one proposed as the state slides into insolvency with the majority of its population.
ohcalcutagirl, I agree completely.
Take action, these people are carelessly wasting our tax dollars.
If these elected officials dont have the backbone to stand up and make changes, then we must make them.
Hey Dan,thanks for gettinng my educated brain in gear.With todays technology I have my doubts a brick and morter campus is even necessary anymore.Ia'm willing to bet 90% of classes could be taken online alot cheaper with similar results.The last college course I attended the professor literally read word for word out of the book.Had to buy a newly revised edition of this book.Had to buy it so I could get all the updates from the last semester on the changes the human body went through since my last Anatomy class.I have learned more on my own since graduating than I ever did on campus.The one thing I haved learned from college is that your certificate proves to your potential employers you were able to sit through all that bull s... for all that time,so they think you will be better able to put up with their b.s.
Patrick,
Regarding your analysis of UNR/UNLV admin staff per student, you fail (purposely?) to recognize that the two institutions work under different bylaws that direct their different missions.
UNR is a land-grant institution which dictates that the university will conduct instruction, RESEARCH, AND OUTREACH. Thus, 2/3 of UNR's mission does not center on student instruction.
Therefore, your analysis of the ratio of administrators to students, and its comparison to UNLV (which considers themselves as a research institution), is a bogus analysis and argument.
Patrick_R_Gibbons, I'm having difficulty believing your numbers. On Nevada University campuses, almost every employee is considered "administration." So who exactly are you counting? The number of academic administrators (Presidents, Provosts, Deans, etc) are actually much lower than what you claim them to be. Your numbers add academic advisers, librarians, computer techs, etc. etc. etc. into the category "administrators." Those people aren't faculty administrators, and can't be "consolidated" into NSHE because they are necessary for any university or college campus. In other words, most of the people who are labeled "administrators" aren't actually "administrators." "Administrative staff" is just a category/title for professional staff. And the ratio of professional staff per student at UNLV is much, much lower than at any comparable institution.
Nope. The administrators category does NOT include researchers. UNR increased its administrators per 100 students by 18 percent, twice as much as the number of instructors (which includes researchers).
Brems,
The Administrator category includes "business operations specialists; buyers and purchasing agents; human resources, training, and labor relations specialists; management analysts; meeting and convention planners; miscellaneous business operations specialists; financial specialists; accountants and auditors; budget analysts; financial analysts and advisors; financial examiners, [etc]""
These are people who are involved in the day to day operations of the university. By most definitions they are administrators. If you don't want to call them administrators, fine. Lets call them highly paid non educators.
As for UNLV and UNR having fewer employees per 100 student than the average research university yes, that is true. But both UNLV and UNR have grown their staff (mostly admins) despite technological improvements which have reduced the demand for this type of labor in most every other industry.
Furthermore, you don't account for the fact that almost all of these universities were bloated in 1993. Claiming you are less bloated, doesn't mean you aren't bloated.
How do you propose that a university run without those professional staff? It doesn't make sense. Nor does it claim that they are "highly paid." The state has no choice but to pay the going rate. (And don't give me statistics comparing a university "financial examiner" to a private sector job in the Nevada. The last time you did that, you gave stats comparing highly successful college graduates to "private sector employees" who could have been McDonald's check-out people - their jobs and titles weren't labeled .) What you should do is compare what a "financial examiner" make at UNLV vs. what they make at California universities because that is who we are competing with. (In other words, apples to apples. Not apples to peanuts.)
As for the "bloat" claim, I suspect you would consider anything in the public sector "bloated." Anything. It's your ideology, not a reflection of reality.
Last, can you elaborate as to what *specific* "technological advances" would be able to replace university professional staff? I'm just curious as to what your conception of this kind of work happens to be. To me, it makes as much sense as automating NPRI publicists.
Wow, to even suggest a government agency receive less money....look at them come back from their 3 hour lunch break after working a 5 hour day and DEMANDING more money.
Get a grip on reality government cheesers.
Patrick--
I didn't go through all of your links, but do you have a breakdown of the cost structure by general catagory for both universities?
I am not sure there enough administrators to can to make the budget work.
One solution is to abolish all remedial courses at the universities. You are working at college level or you are farmed out to a community college until you are working at those levels. It is much cheaper to do it at the community college level.
A second area is to consider the research mission. Do we need all of these graduate programs? Would it be better to keep a core of research programs?
Brems,
Why do you think they have to increase the number of these people faster than the student population?
spending per pupil by category
UNR:
Total: 26,235
admin:5,974
instruction: 9,799
research:6,867
other: $3,594
UNLV: total 15,363
admin 4,160
instruction 5,773
research 2,050
other 3,380
appendix b: Table 8, pg 5 of 8 http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/articl...
Note, the Education Trust, a left-of-center education think tanks puts UNR's total spending per pupil at $32,000, not $24,000 http://www.collegeresults.org/search1b.a...
brems,
About government pay: http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/se...
What college do I have to go attend to earn $220,000 a year as an A/C repairman?
I just today visited the UNR campus and was shocked at the "Empire" they have built there over the past 20 years. There are new multimillion dollar buildings and facilities everywhere and staffed through the roof. I did notice that the UNR police headquarters is located in the same old tin shed it was in 30 years ago. So much for public safety at UNR!
Problem solved: Integrate
Little Hispanic kids teach little American kids Espanol; little gringo share our idioms. folk stories and lore. Kids learn: similarities in language; differences; social and education skills; respect, self-esteem; etc.
Teachers direct but kids present. Cross-curricular opportunities abound in Social Studies, History, Current Events, Art, Music, etc.
Universities have opportunity to provide supervision and to integrate Student-Teaching curriculum. They'll gain real world skills and cut the teacher load while improving language skills instead of fighting it. Save $50 million a year and raise all kinds of happy, life-long learners and linguists.
PRG,
Bought an old place that needed everything. Guess who really rang the bell?
Yep, HVAC guy. I looked up the stuff he got me. On-line retail $1500. Installed $12,500. Took a day, two guys. In at 10 out by 4.
Pretty good retirement for all those guys - the tech at 200 an hour and the boss banking half the day's take.
All this talk about UNR and UNLV, but what no one has mentioned is that Higher Education also includes the community colleges. If we cut the budget for NSHE we will also cut funding for real world education. Not every person is destined to be a Doctor or a CPA, many students just want to learn a trade or get there AA. Schools like TMCC and CSN teach those students. What we need to do is cut budgets to areas that are already covered. For example, why do we need Nevada State and UNLV within a few minutes of each other? They are both serving the same 4 year students. Let's be wise with the funding and plan for the future.
Patrick:
Very interesting numbers.
Based on the numbers you cite above multiplied by number of the approximate number of students (UNLV--28,000 and UNR--17,000), eliminating all administrative cost would be worth about $215 million. Cutting administrative cost by one-half would achieve the 10% requested by the Gov.
The differential in administrative costs per student between south and north is amazing across the board--almost 50% higher in all catagories except "other"
I think for starters all the higher education facilities should be sharing a police structure. Having multiple command lines for each campus is a stupid waste of money.
Second start consolidation of the technology. These facilities spend a fortune keeping up with the latest in technology, there is no reason they can't simple share the costs for licensing/etc... as one organization.
Third, consolidate workers. Maintenance/IT/etc... can be shared between facilities.
The trick to saving money is consolidation. These facilities politicians needs to loose the ego's and work together.
Patrick_R_Gibbons, I'm not familiar with what HVAC Techs make, but it did occur to me that all the outrageous examples of large salaries are from Clark County. NOT the State of Nevada, NOT the University System. Come on Patrick, get in the game. If you want to be an effective critic, at least know who you are criticizing (the current topic is the University System) - and don't assume that we won't notice your little switch and bait.
(Also note that HVAC techs are not "administrative" or "professional staff." Also, also note that the salaries listed on Transparent Nevada *include* benefits such as healthcare and retirement matches. Base salaries for public employees are much smaller than what is listed, and they are comparable to the private sector. Do you think we are so stupid we won't notice that Patrick?)
@gibs,
Please provide the link or information that Nevada state workers are 6th in the nation in wages or compensation. Last I heard we were somewhere around 20th. Local governments were the ones around the 5 or 6 mark. Please show me where I am mistaken here.
John,
It is in the statistical abstract of the united states. I believe local government workers are 5th highest paid and Nevada's state workers are 16th highest paid - at least in 2006.
@johnmanrule, "Lies, damn lies and statistics." It is worth noting that Nevada has the lowest number of employees per capita than *any other state.* There are fewer people doing more things. Additionally, Nevada has to compete with California for good quality employees. These factors would naturally contribute to salary and compensation.
Brem,
I didn't suggest HVAC techs were administrators did I? I was merely pointing out the massive discrepancy in public and private sector worker pay that you claim only exists because government workers are better educated on average. With you, it seems, I have to be very clear at what point of yours I'm addressing.
No I don't think you're stupid, I just don't think you pay close attention to the figures. You didn't notice that beyond base salaries are overtime pay, longevity bonuses, other payments and then benefits.
Brems,
Guess what? The size of our bureaucracy has little to do with anything except that Nevada pays above average and or Nevada's workers are simply more efficient (probably only due to the fact that our population grew faster than Nevada's governments could wastefully expand their own waistlines) http://www.npri.org/publications/governm...
Patrick_R_Gibbons, again with local government. If you are going to criticize the University System, why are you using statistics from the local government? They are not the same things. They are not funded the same way. According to the Chamber of Commerce study, NSHE employees make less than the national average.
Brems,
I was helping to answer John's question...
I haven't seen that study on NSHE salaries but I did see it on K-12 education salaries. Nevada teachers are paid below the national average but Nevada ranks between 17th and 22nd in teacher pay. This occurs because a few large states like NY, MA and CA pay healthy sums and drive up the mean.
Quick facts:
1. Mining rights in Nevada are owned by international conglomerates.
2. These international conglomerates have an effective tax rate of less than one-half of 1%.
3. These international conglomerates are making record profits, and taking the profits to Australia/South Africa/Etc.
4. They CANNOT MOVE operations to another state.
It's time that these international conglomerates pay their fair share in taxes for the benefit of Nevada's public schools and other agencies.
I don't see how the above can be logically refuted.
The only way we stop being a "poor state" (read pathetic in that we are 49th in the country for learning outcomes), is through education and diversity of our economy and jobs.
Gbigs,
Actually, Nevada has historically (as in the last 30 years) been a wealthy state with a below average poverty rates, despite having low-graduation rates and low college attainment. Historically, Nevada was a place where many people could come, live, work hard, and make a good living. That may have changed with the recession however.
Brems,
You've been fed some distorted facts. That 1% figure comes from people who don't bother to inform you they are calculating from a gross receipts tax perspective when most states do a net receipts tax (which is closer to what we have in Nevada on mining than the grt).
Patrick:
What exactly are all these administrators administrating? The trend seems to be nationwide. A bunch of universities did not just get together and decide to raise admin. costs.
Maybe the Chancellor can explain all this.
I don't have time to discuss all of Patrick's numbers. That said, I would like to contribute the following:
1. Most of his numbers are prior the to budget cuts. As a result, they don't provide a true picture of the NSHE system at this point in time.
2. His fact that "UNLV had 59 percent more dollars per pupil in 2007 than in 1993, while UNR's budget grew 21 percent per pupil" seems impressive until you include the inflation rate. If you add in inflation, UNR had less money per pupil than it did in 1993 in 2007. UNLV had slightly more in 2007. The numbers for 2010 would probably not help Patrick's cause.
3. He's right about the number of administrators per instructor; however, the ratio has changed so dramatically largely because universities are relying more on adjunct instructors which aren't included in his student-to- instructor ratio. Full-time instructors are being replaced by part-time instructors. (By the way, the reliance on part-time instructors is an attempt to increase the efficiency of the tax dollars, an effort Patrict should applaud.)
4. The NSHE graduation rate isn't great. But, it's comparable to the Cal-state system. My guess is that the graduation rate is likely to spike in the near future. One reason for the low graduation rates in Nevada is that students used to be able to obtain a good job that didn't require a degree. Also, are low graduation rates the fault of the institutions or students? I'd love to hear the answer of NPRI on that one.
Regarding the HVAC example (not that this has anything to do with Higher Education in the least)... The examples that you give our trully strange and do not add up. The example of the man who makes $200, when you click on his name this is the breakdown:
**************
Position HVAC MECHANIC
Clark County
Notice * For Clark County, "Total Pay" figures include many pay categories not included in the "Base Pay" or "Overtime" figures, including: leave pay, sell backs, allowances, longevity, premium pays and separation pay.
Year: 2009
Base Amount: $31,370.57
Overtime Collected: $749.16
Total Pay: $229,826.40
Benefits Accumulated: $14,413.76
Total Pay & Benefits: $244,240.16
********
His base salary is $31K, and his benefits are $14K. That seems in line with private sector, or maybe even less than someone working in the private sector. I don't know how these numbers are calculated, or what happened in this man's specific case, but I can't say that I trust "Transparent Nevada" to get everything right. I certainly don't trust NPRI to interpret things in a non-biased manner.
Dazed,
That is true, the numbers end in 2007 (US government figures are always a few years behind).
That said, both UNLV and UNR experienced significantly larger budget gains between 93-07 than they did in budget cuts since then. Those numbers were inflation adjusted to 2007 dollar values.
Yes universities rely more on adjuncts, they were included in the instructor categories. On average universities increased their adjunct positions by 85 percent over that period, several multiples higher than full-time faculty, but again, lower than the growth in admins.
As for graduation rates, yes I'm sure many people leave early because they find good jobs in the private sector in Nevada (the US average is that just 28 percent of jobs require a college degree and it is less so in the Silver State). However, this means that higher ed isn't providing a good value relative to simple job training in this state. (Another way of looking at it is that we are admitting more students to higher ed (and debt) than is necessary for our economy to thrive). That said, K-12 education shares some of the blame for higher eds failure to graduate more students. And of course, partying and failing out would be the fault of the student.
Thanks for the great comments.
"the man who makes over $200K"
Brems,
Read the transparent Nevada website again. This particular HVAC tech makes additional money from other payments like longevity pay. Do you see the total pay line?
Transparent Nevada simply posts the data as reported by the government reporting agencies.
Let's follow the genius lead of gbigs and just completely eliminate any brick and mortar institutions known as schools.
Let's rely on parenting, curiosity and innate capability to learn astrophysics, gerontology and French cuisine.
Allow good old Socratic learning to replace the bastions of hollowed wisdom. The capable will succeed, and think of all the savings. Why about $3 bill for Nevada alone!
See what you posted: Notice * For Clark County, "Total Pay" figures include many pay categories not included in the "Base Pay" or "Overtime" figures, including: leave pay, sell backs, allowances, longevity, premium pays and separation pay.
That explains why Pay+Overtime+Benefits didn't add up to $240,000 plus
Airware,
Brick and mortar institutions are already a thing of the past. They are expensive, limited....the future of education is virtual.
Harvard and MIT already offer free courses. For life-time learners there are private companies that hire real college professors to teach real courses and they charge you $29-$500 for the course (no credits earned, but if you loving learning it is a great deal no university can beat). You get, cds, dvds, an lecture outline sample questions, suggested reading material.
Virtual K-12 schools are also rapidly growing.
Hybrid model schools are the next phase, but virtual education will eventually replace the brick and mortar school.
One of our recent projects in geothermal is the ongoing inclusionary outreach for the residual energy we have after running the Peppermill Casino in Reno.
One problem that we found good to have is too much of a good thing.
But by following the genius of gbigs' outlay if investing in local talent in local resources, there's absolutely no reason to spend any money on geothermal.
Hi Patrick,
Using total spending to justify your argument without consideration of both inflation and student growth is misleading at best. (When both are included, UNR has seen its per-student spending go down since 1993.)
I don't believe that adjuncts were included in the instructor category. (The Goldwater Report specifies full-time employees when calculating those ratios; see Appendix B, Table A5.)
Re: Graduation rates and value. This discussion is too lengthy to discuss here. That said, given NPRI's philosophy, I just think that you should be careful in suggesting that NSHE isn't providing value for tax dollars because of it's low graduation rates. It suggests that universities are at fault for the choices of students to drop out, which runs counter to much your Institute's arguments.
Lesson's learned today:
1. University employees make less than the national average.
2. There are far fewer University professional (non-teaching) employees per student than the national average.
3. Mining can and should pay its fair share of taxes.
4. Patrick Gibbons thinks that there is no need for Higher Education at all, despite the the two billion Higher Education generates for the Nevada's economy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9hDgfk7C...
I just spent 20 minutes reading all these posts. I do lots of research for a living and how quick Patrick posts numbers is truly troubling to me. For those of you that have read this far even with the speed of Google it still takes time to read and interpret data. How can 1 man come up so so many stats in so little time that are accurate.....OR does the man just make S_ _ _ up?
Give Patrick his due, this is his field of expertise and can be expected to know where the numbers are located for ready retrieval.
You may disagree with his arguments, but he surely knows where to find data for his premises.
Find data or make data up? That is the theme I see in the posts. As people continue to look at his sources and then "quote" from them it sure looks like this guy has some cherry picking ethical issues.
Patrick is an advocate. Like many advocates of all stripes he cites those sources to support his position. Information to persuade. In this case the position is less government. The answer to the question is government is bad, inefficient and those who work for it are pretty much the same--now what was the question?
Patrick puts the stuff out here, and cites his sources. We can look it up and criticize it. Most of it is his own stuff and/or the stuff of NPRI colleagues. Everyone needs to check his numbers and sources as well as the stuff we post ourselves.
In terms of today's numbers, the task undertaken by the Goldwater Foundation to formulate a comparison of costs was difficult to say the least (apples and oranges). In particular, Appendix B comparing cost categories is tough--comparing UNLV to Michigan is problematic--I didn't see where the sources of funding to cover costs were discussed. Comparing Michigan to Ohio State is closer to apples to apples.
In terms of explaining the growth of administrative cost, I was not impressed. I think Patrick attributed in a post above it to self-serving bureaucrats who exist to grow empires or something. I am not sure why the growth in the administrative costs--how cost were accounted for during the period could explain why it was so pervasive during the period in question.
I believe higher education endorsed Rory Reid. They deserve no extra money. If they endorsed Sandoval the same thing should happen. Keep support @#%@ and keep getting #$%!. In my day education was prized.
I don't know what planet the regents live on but on the one I live on, spitting in someone's' eye is not a prudent bargaining tactic.
If the state education system wants to avoid REALLY tough times, I suggest they try another tack.
When Vegas has the highest unemployment rate of any city in the union, Nevada has the highest unemployment rate of any state in the country, the highest foreclosure rate and property owners can't make their mortgages; asking for more of their non-existent or scarce income via taxes while they themselves make seemingly bloated and undeserved salaries, I would expect little public support and probably a strong backlash.
What voters, taxpayers and citizens need know is not more elitist self-serving attitudes by those living on the public largesse. Maybe we should vote them out lock stock and barrel and put someone in with some common sense and sensibility.
Lots of posts by Patrick R. Gibbons.
Not a lot of posts about who Patrick R. Gibbons is and how he gets so many numbers so fast.
Patrick doesn't say, either. Oh well.
Patrick is an employee of the conservative Nevada Policy Research Institute (NPRI). He appears on shows like Ralston's Face To Face arguing against government because, well, that is what conservatives get paid to do.
Why doesn't Patrick admit this in his posts? Hmmm...perhaps he thinks that if his conservative bias were public people would know that he comes to issues like education with a pre-packaged conclusion.
Now take another look at the facts and references in his posts above. See how he relies on NPRI opinions and facts...which he had a hand in creating.
"It will not be easy to produce a low-cost, high-quality three-year curriculum for a college degree, but now is the time to try," Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), a former education secretary and a past president of the University of Tennessee, told a group of educators this year. "Today's economic crisis and tight budgets are the best time to innovate and change."
We need our universities but they should innovate and reduce the number of irrelevant majors and classes. Maybe we should change the 12th grade in high school to a intro to college humanities course. Get it all out of the way in high school.
The freshman student would have a major and take 3 years for a degree but they would be online all summer.
Innovate people- the way we have done things is not necessarily how we will continue to do things. CAVEMAN 300 bc
"Get it all out of the way in high school."
LMAO
There would be approximately zero loss if we completely discontinued k-12.
Save $3 B; not impact the level of ignorance and disregard for learning.
Why in the world do we even waste time and money if this is the net result?U
Utter cluelessness, total disregard for understanding and absolute lunacy prevail. Why waste time and money if this is who we choose to be?
"Maybe we should change the 12th grade in high school to a intro to college humanities course"
Most of the 17 and 18 yo Nevadans are not equipped to read poetry, novels, biographies or essays; they lack understanding of any background in formal psychology, sociology, economics, religion, art, architecture or music.
Just what did you have in mind when you suggest they 'get it all out of the way'?
Is learning a discharging process, like throwing unnecessary items off a ship, burning stumps and hauling trash?
Does the skill level, mindset or attitude of the learner ever have anything to do with learning?
When broad brush statements about children learning plop onto this rag, I can't help but think of 'Is our children learning?'!!
Terminate the senseless waste of any education money in Nevada. It serves only the suppliers; nothing is learned.
Teach the Joshua trees French.
Educating youth in Nevada circa 2010 is tantamount to planting corn in the desert, wheat in gravel, and apple trees in salt.
Spend the education dollars on the educable.
Don't waste it here.
Patrick Gibbons, your data is bloated, and so is your head.
We spend less than anyone in the country on higher education.
http://www.ppinys.org/reports//jtf/highe...
Its silly to have TWO full universities in a state with population of under 2 million. Whats the point of having UNR being a "research" school?? Just for political balance with UNLV ??
The LA area has UCLA and UC Irvine, but with over 10 million people in the region.
In general all these "ethnic" studies programs need to be cut back, along with other "arts" programs that don't lead to jobs. The higher ed. system needs to focus on majors leading to real jobs, especially in public colleges.
Face it, your "low tax" mantra is a flop. You can't compete with Oregon and its "high taxes".