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StumbleMetro mails Costco customers to find witnesses in police shooting
Wednesday, Aug. 18, 2010 | 12:46 p.m.
Sun archives
- Candlelight vigil held in memory of man killed by Metro Police (8-11-2010)
- Planning for a situation like recent Costco shooting not easy for police (7-19-2010)
- Man killed by police in Costco shooting honored at memorial (7-17-2010)
- Metro IDs officers in fatal shooting at Summerlin Costco (7-12-2010)
- Officers fatally shoot armed man at Summerlin Costco (7-10-10)
Metro Police have mailed and faxed about 120 letters to Summerlin Costco customers in hopes of finding people who might have witnessed events tied to an officer-involved shooting that killed Erik Scott.
Metro spokesman Jacinto Rivera said the letters were sent to people who might have witnessed anything before, during or after the July 10 shooting in an effort to piece together a complete picture of events.
Scott, 38, was killed at the Costco store after authorities say he pointed a gun at an officer, prompting three officers to shoot him. Some witness accounts have contradicted Metro's version of events.
"If anyone does come forward, we definitely want to talk to them," Rivera said Tuesday. Metro investigators have started interviewing people who have come forward after receiving the letters, he said.
According to a letter dated Aug. 12 sent to one Costco customer, police used Costco membership card records to determine which customers were shopping around the time of the shooting.
"We are committed to doing a complete and thorough investigation of this incident and ask that you contact us at your earliest convenience," the letter states. "It is important that you contact us whether or not you believe you may have witnessed or have knowledge of some portion of this incident."
Rivera said Metro investigators are still waiting to see video footage of the incident captured on Costco security cameras. A computer hard drive was sent to an off-site facility to attempt to retrieve the footage, he said.
Autopsy and toxicology reports won't be released to the public until the coroner's inquest, he said, which is typical for officer-involved shootings.
The coroner's inquest, originally scheduled for Sept. 3 to determine whether the officers' actions were justified, was postponed and hasn't been rescheduled.
The family of Scott, a West Point graduate with a concealed weapon permit, has denied Metro's version of events and has since launched a campaign to raise awareness about the incident — both at the local and national level.
They bought ad space on Las Vegas billboards asking witnesses to come forward, flew banners over the U.S. Open of Surfing in California directing people to a website they created, and organized a candlelight vigil last week at Costco to mark the one-month anniversary of his death.
+++++++
Text of a letter obtained by the Sun that was sent to a Costco customer:
Dear (customer's name):
The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Homicide Section is asking for your cooperation in an important matter. We are investigating the circumstances which lead to an Officer Involved Shooting. Our investigation indicates that your Costco membership card was used to make a purchase at the Las Vegas Summerlin Costco store, 801 Pavilion Circle Drive, not long after 12:00 p.m. on July 10, 2010. You, or the person using your card, may have witnessed portions of an incident which occurred during the time you may have been shopping at the store.
We are committed to doing a complete and thorough investigation of this incident and ask that you contact us at your earliest convenience. It is important that you contact us whether or not you believe you may have witnessed or have knowledge of some portion of this incident.
We ask that you contact either Homicide Detective Barry Jensen at (702) 828-3605, Email B3662J@lvmpd.com, or Homicide Detective Peter J. Calos at (702) 828-1959, Email P4472C@lvmpd.com.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
Sincerely,
Lewis Roberts, Lieutenant
Homicide Section
Robbery/Homicide Bureau
Investigative Services Division
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Could it be there were too many people that never saw this guy pull a gun, so they're hoping to catch some fuzzy recollections that corroborate their "offical" story of a crazy guy waving a gun and pointing it at officers?
this is simply metro looking for backup to a non existent scenario PERIOD
a prcedent is being set here with the police sending out recipe cards to costco customers looking for any straw to hold on too
this is actually quite sad that this is happening,you will get the metro defenders on here shortly,but this kind of investigation,and seeking witnesses through the mail is ludicrous,and EVERYONE knows it
I could understand this maybe a month ago,but this should have been investigated,and stamped by now
too much conflicting information for me to side with metro at this time
i did side with them at first,but development after development just purely spells confusion with what happened that afternoon
peace out
jerrywayne
with them seeking help through the mailers,you are exactly right with your statement
they have no collaboration,and are just grasping at this time
peace out
are u fing serious
dear costco customer,
metro needs your help in discovering what happened 2 months ago as you were buying 50 boxes of mac and cheese for 10.00
this is just ridiculous
the people they interviewed immedietly told the metro what they didnt want to hear,so therefore they were dismissed
now 2 months later,they hope the media,and coverage as portraying this as a possible mistake,now they go out and seek additional witnesses
a defense lawyer is going to destroy any witness that answers through the mail
peace out
Did COSTCO have a warrant served on them to give out private customer information to the Metro CYA team?
Does COSTCO make their database availble to the government on a routine basis?
Looks like COSTCO/METRO have a working relationship to duck the upcoming lawsuits. (maybe Metro buys a lot of those donuts and muffins out there, is this a conflict of interest?)
Guess, people are right, those "shoppers cards" are an invitation for an invasion of privacy...time to pay cash at the grocery store....buy a polish-dog and end up in Metro's database...thanks COSTCO.
No defense lawyer is going to destroy any witness b/c there is no defense lawyer in the rubber stamp kangaroo procedure known as a Coroner's Inquest.
What happened to all the witnesses Metro already claimed to have? Oops.
======
Beware GESTAPO 9-1-1.
If I were one of the people who witnessed the murder of Erik Scott, I would be extremely careful about contacting the Las Vegas Metro Police Department. If I did contact the police and was persuaded to speak with a police officer about my account, I would certainly let someone know where I was going and what time I expected to return. Any movement while in the presence of Metro officers might well be interpreted as "furtive" and result in a judgment of guilty, a sentence of death imposed and an immediate execution of that sentence.
You people never cease to amaze me. You demand a through investigation and then you complain because Metro is taking steps to locate everyone that was shopping at Costco when the incident unfolded. What are you afraid of, that your "conspiracy theory" will be shot down?
How long can it take to look at the tapes ? If it was in Metro's favor it would be dun ! We are all SUCKERS for putting up with the way Metro handles most things .
What I find most interesting is that the video of the young women who recently mugged a 95 year old woman was immediatey released to the media but not one single video clip from any of the security cameras inside and outside of Costco was released to the media or the attorney for Erik Scott's family. I just find that amazing!
day late and a dollar short...so to say?
the only thing i could see this effort not being a "delay" is that metro was waiting for costco to run memberships to be able to compile this list and then get it to metro.
Given all the police PR and scare/harassment tactics in the last year (like trying to lynch a man that got hit by a cruiser going 109 MPH without lights on), I am not sure I would feel secure about telling Metro something they do not want to hear. I would be worried they would continue to persecute me and my family. This is a very troubling feeling to have in the country that defines freedom.
And what makes me feel worse, is that if someone said this same statement that I just made to me 12 months ago, I would have told them it was an irrational fear. I just do not know any more.
Sheriff Gillespie pretty quiet in this story
I think what is going on here are people who claimed to "witness" something have gone to the family lawyer instead of the police first. I also think that most people who have gone to the lawyer are just hoping for a some money from a non-existant lawsuit.
Overall, we should be happy that once again Metro shows they do complete investgations. Some of you, such as BrianJ, kept referring to previous incidents which are off topic; however in each of those incidents Metro did conduct a complete investigation and admitted when/if they were wrong.
I wonder if Metro will begin late night raids on these people homes, after they don't come forward????
Keep in mind Martha Stewart and Blago were convicted only of lying to Federal authorities - a felony.
The local cops can use a similar law. If they don't like what you say, they will charge you with lying to an officer. You will go to jail and have to spend thousands of dollars trying to defend yourself.
Your choice.
They admitted it only when it could NOT be covered up any more. The officer was recognized in an awards ceremony by the same police force. He was not charged or said to have "died while recklessly endangering the public", he was honored.
This is ONE case of many, cover up, true details leak out, had to admit it, but "don't worry boys, we will stand by and your cowboy behavior and will destroy anyone who dares to question your holiness". They did not admit it, until they were FORCED TO. They parade the victim around like a criminal LONG after they knew their own cop was GUILTY AS HELL.
This is NOT off topic because this is the manner in which this force conducts itself. This is just ONE more example.
Let's review for 1 minute the shooters (the idiots that had GUNS DRAWN AND POINTED AT A DOORWAY FULL OF PEOPLE):
Senior, seasoned shooter one: 5 years on force, weapon drawn MULTIPLE times, killed one person already. FIVE YEARS experience.
Second most experienced shooter, 23 years old and on the force for 1 year, 9 months....
Third veteran with a loaded gun aimed at the public and an itchy trigger finger: 1 year, 4 months on the JOB.
WOW! As a seasoned Capt. coming to the scene could you ask for anything more? Yet, instead of investigating, he jumped right on camera to slander the victim.
And you do not see a pattern here?
If Metro does a complete investigation, they are dragging their feet.
If Metro does a sloppy investigation, they are incompetent and rush to judgement.
Here's one, you buffoons have no clue what it takes to do a thorough investigation.
This isn't some BS episode of CSI solved before the Buick commercial.
Most of all the heaviest critics of Metro are doing exactly what they accuse Metro of.
If this shooting goes against Metro then the family of Mr. Scott or anyone else impacted is going to want a thorough investigation in order to prosecute the officers.
Yeah, on the other hand let's speed this thing up so the officers are exonerated.
Sheriff Gillespie says the only purpose of a coroner's inquiry is to determine whether officers were participants in a crime. That's fine. Hold the coroner's inquiry whenever.
As a result of the Rodney King beating in Los Angeles, we learned real justice on civil rights issues occurs in the Federal court. Family members of a victim can pursue their civil damage remedies under 42 USC 1983, and a credible US attorney can bring a criminal prosecution of police officers under the Civil Rights Act even if a state court jury has acquitted the policemen.
The 4 LAPD officers who beat Rodney King were acquitted by a California Superior Court jury in Simi Valley, but 2 of them were convicted of criminal civil rights violations in by a Federal District Court jury in Downtown L.A. Those 2 LAPD officers actually did prison time, even though Rodney King wasn't killed. The LAPD and its owners the City of LA wisely waived the white flag and settled the civil damages case, even before the Federal criminal trial.
I hope that the late Mr. Scott's family's lawyer is VERY aggressively pursuing Federal civil discovery of the 911 calls, security videos, witness statements to Metro, and even the names of the people who received these letters, because common sense and history show that as time goes on there is a huge opportunity for evidence tampering on the part of Costco let alone Metro. Preservation of evidence, and preventing the intimidation of witnesses is essential.
Costco and Metro's "owners", Clark County and the City of Las Vegas, as police-officer-indemnitors in a Federal civil trial, have an economic interest in preventing the decedent's family's lawyer from having direct access to the evidence while it is fresh, if they hope to prevail at a 42 USC 1983 personal injury type trial. VERY common throughout the USA is public agencies using their police powers to interfere with production of evidence to plaintiff's attorneys for people like Mr. Scott's parents.
Since it is reasonable to assume that there will never be any criminal prosecution of the police officers involved, it's clear to me that money-driven evidence manipulations by Metro, Costco and their lawyers, are occurring, preparing for a personal injury type 42 USC 1983 civil trial.
To counter this sort of evidence manipulation, a nationwide web-based public relations campaign, by Mr. Scott's parents, warning tourists they face danger, in terms of being summarily shot by Metro officers if they "act crazy", is the next card to be played in this game. When the tourists-might-get-shot card is played, the damage to Las Vegas' tourist economy will be irreversible for a few years.
That tactical consideration is one which Las Vegas' casino owners, Mr. Ratenkoffer and the City/County as Metro's "owner" need to carefully contemplate. Quick and quiet civil settlement would be the best for all involved, including the Sheriff and Metro.
mred, you really are an idiot. You can lie to Metro, they are not federal agents.
A witness can't go to jail either way. You really watch too much TV and listen to way too much talk radio.
I hesitate to say this, but get a life.
cynical, Mr. Scott's family is already robo-calling people complaining about Metro and the D.A.
I view this just as distasteful as if Metro or the D.A. were trying this publicly.
Costco broke their privacy agreement with customers.
"We do not sell, rent, share or disclose personal information to third parties without your prior consent, except in the limited circumstances described below:......"
http://shop.costco.com/Legal/Privacy#D
The rest is long, and does not mention law enforcement.
Although, I don't mind the idea of Metro looking for witnesses, Costco needs to follow their own stated privacy policies.
One less shopper.
westvegas, If they were subpoenaed they had no choice.
So, you are not shopping at Costco because they followed the law.......OK.
Lots of twitch and froth on this board.
Folks who start their comments with the words, "you people, " and contain the words, "you buffoons" automatically call into question not only the veracity their comments but impugn their own intelligence as well. Name calling is for intellectually lazy people who lack the basic critical thinking skills to reinforce their arguments but instead choose to raise their voices.
Their is NO WAY Costco would give this out voluntarily. Too much liability for them and any requests (even for the tapes) would be going directly through the corporate legal department and the outside firm they have hired for this.
You have to think about what Costco could be concerned about here. What if it is true that their manager got offended by the victim and decided to teach him a lesson by exaggerating the situation to 911?
And then people wonder why justice is taken at the had of the victims and their family. I am surprised more people do find their own justice.
Bob, if you took offense to buffoon, I apologize, but you have to look at the big picture.
You accuse Metro of all sorts of shenanigans.....low fruit my friend.
I just re-read your comments and to insinuate Metro has death squads, well, I can see why calling you a buffoon offended you. You need help by a clinical psychologist and deprogramming.
getalife;
I think the point here, the one that I feel you are missing, is that being concerned about our police force should NOT be "low hanging fruit" for criticism. They are paid VERY well and should be VERY professional. Management is paid embarrassingly well, and should MANAGE. They are not.
People are scared of this police force. That is concerning in a democracy. His family is getting stonewalled and is grasping for ANY sort of justice they can get before everything is covered up.
If you think people are over-reacting, turn down Rush for a minute and consider what has happened in this valley. You can search but here is some help.
Woman shot off 8' wall with a knife after 20 minutes of arguing with officers (shot with a gun to get her down)
Ice cream lady shot INSIDE truck with a knife (that seem like a life threatening situation to you?)
Car shot up in henderson as driver tries to kill officers with car (over 40 officers on scene and car surrounded on a dead end)?
Costco shooting into a crowd?
Undercover cop shoots man in head with an assualt rifle after saying he is a major dealer to get a warrant? Two joints found.
ATF and henderson police raid house and find two joints and force the three strippers living there out into the street in underwear for "processing"
Read what is going on in this town.
I think we probably need the federal government in here (just like New Orleans needed them).
Stop dragging this story on. Case plain and simple. The guy should not have had a gun in plain site in a public facility, should not have been disruptive and if he had any common sense he would not have brandished it or tried to pull it out in front of the police for any reason. Cops have a dangerous job. They do not know you and probably don't even care. If I was surrounded by police, the first thing out of my mouth would be, "Ey, I have a gun but I'm not going to shoot. I have no intentions of hurting anybody. It's tucked in my waste in the back of my jeans with the safety on, serial number X49L4K, purchased on January 1st, 2006 at approximately 4:00 in Charleston, WV. Please don't shoot me." I'd freaking yell it out. Make SURE everyone hears me.
I understand his family is upset over the loss of their son but they should also take into account his actions on that day and what he could have done to prevent what happened as a result of him carrying a loaded firearm into Costco. What if someones hard headed stepchild saw the guns silhouette in his pants and thought it would be "cute" to run up to the guy, snatch his gun out and started playing cops and robbers himself? Who would have been at fault in that situation? The parents? Costco security? The police? How about D:, none of the above. Rest in peace man. Rest in peace.
Brian, I am not missing anything, you are asserting Death Squads.
I have never said and I never will say that Metro is perfect. They are not.
If you look at the number of incidents a year that draw headlines it would represent a staggeringly small percentage.
Having said that, If Metro is wrong in the Costco shooting or any other act of malfeasance then they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
I realize nothing will sway your attitude that says "all cops are evil" but if Mr. Scott had harmed a civilian you would be calling for Metro to conduct an inquiry concerning their lack of protection for civilians.
Bring the Feds in...... you realize they won't act until this investigation is over, right??
Uaintseeme;
The first bullet hit him in the chest 2-3 seconds after he exited the store and right after they yelled "Drop it" "get down". So in your scenario above, you would be dead, by the time you got "I GOT A GUN..." out of your mouth. I think yelling probably would have scared the three people who were ready to shoot you also.
I agree he should not have had a gun. Unfortunately, the law says he is allowed to have a gun so me thinking he should not have one is just an opinion.
@ Getalife
I think the robocalls are part of an attempt to influence the potential jury pool in the Federal Civil Rights Act case.
If Metro and the City/County lawyers and Costco and their lawyers are going to play the hide-the-evidence game, like we all saw in Governor Jimbo's pre-election parking garage escapade, the robocalling is a legitimate, creative response in terms of hardball lawyering.
Getalife, you missed by point. It's not a matter of taste. The best thing for Las Vegas' tourist based economy, as well as for Metro and the officers involved is to get the parents' civil claims settled quickly and quietly.
When that happens the pressure for "the right verdict" out of a coroner's inquest will largely go away.
getalife;
are you insane? Trying to say I believe the police have "death squads"? "all cops are evil"?
Where do you see that? You are too polar, try to read and comprehend. Or, just find the quotes that you attribute to me. Now I understand why Glen Beck needs a white board to draw pictures for you.
Try to keep your composure, I understand that it is upsetting that not everyone in this country shares your view of the world but don't make stuff up to support your argument. Do not be overly defensive. Share your opinion, do not attack people.
I do not hold metro responsible for their inability to stop random acts of violence, your assertion is fatuous. As to the Feds, I am not speaking of this ONE incident, they need to investigate the culture (and management) that supports this behavior.
Brian, my apologies on the death squads, that was bobglover.
You on the other hand just completely misrepresent facts to fit your ideology.
I Don't watch Beck and I certainly don't listen to Rush.
It is spurious that when somebody disagrees with a liberal (yes Brian, your accusation outed you) they always play the "stop listening to Rush or Beck" card. Very sad.
Wow westvegas, you need to work on reading comprehension. You say "The rest is long, and does not mention law enforcement." Apparently you didn't secion "E. Other Uses and Disclosures" which says:
"In addition, we may use or disclose personal information in the good faith belief that we are lawfully authorized to do so, or that doing so is reasonably necessary to protect you, to comply with legal process or authorities, to respond to any claims, or to protect the rights, property or personal safety of Costco Wholesale, our Members, our employees or the public."
This would definitely fall under "...lawfully authorized to do so..." (since there's no law against them releasing it) and "...to comply with legal process or authorities..." (since the authorities requested it)
Well I see the idiots are out in force today. Last weeks theme was "Metro is covering up and not doing a proper investigation" while this weeks theme is "Metro violated our rights by subpoenaing our Costco cards". I guess we cant please all the folks all the time.
There should be a video recording of the incident. All Costco stores have a video camera pointed at the entrance and exit. I guess Costco is afraid of a lawsuit from Scotts' family.
Actually, I am hard core GOP (even in a state where we cannot field acceptable representatives). I just read the other comments you wrote and saw you hatred of liberals and wanted to get under your skin.
I think the facts speak for themselves and more and more people are starting to agree, there is something wrong in this valley.
@KOM674
Really?? REALLY??? You don't think this is a circus when the entire incident MUST have been taped? If 300 people see one thing but the tape says another, who are you gonna believe? This isn't a "I hate Metro" thing its a common sense thing. This isn't a thorough investigation otherwise tapes would have been released and witnesses asked to step forward months ago.
If you don't think this is a fiasco your biased beyond belief or just plain stupid.
How awfull is this to do to the mans family, Metro doesn't appear to care what life it destroys when it comes to their own agenda. How sad....
This should have been over a long time ago and would have been if the facts they state are in fact, facts.
They are trying to recover what is on the tapes. It is a system that records to a hard drive, and for some reason the recordings were unreadable. They have sent them to California to try and recover them.
This is unfortunate since it would show the actions inside that store that set this all in motion.
Brian, thanks for playing...... my skin is healing. Read more of my posts and you will see I don't listen to talking points from any source. I have a brain and evidently that is dangerous.
I agree that Metro has issues. I don't support Gillespie and have never voted for him, but let the investigation run.
uaintseeme, you must be Gillespie's new #1. That or UNBELIEVABLY!!! ignorant.
WOWSER!!!
"If you don't agree with the cops and blindly accept their modes and methods yer stuuupid!"
C'mon.
This IS still AMERICA.
You are not only ALLOWED, perhaps it's YOUR DUTY to assure that those you hire to keep the peace are DOING SO LEGALLY and with the utmost professionalism.
Sheriff Gillespie has had a very TOUGH YEAR, and for that he has my deepest sympathies; but DOUG,
you are LOSING THE PUBLIC'S TRUST...that's your #1 JOB...
NUMERO UNO.
It's not just that there are so many unanswered questions on THIS CASE...and the list seems to grow instead of shrink, there's been a BOATLOAD of questionable police activity over a period of time under Sheriff Gillespie's tenure.
I'm sorry, but though I BACK the BLUE and the tough, tough job they do, I don't do it with blinders on.
IMO, there ought to be a discussion of who leads Metro into the future in Las Vegas.
Let the FBI investigate this, and not metro!
Seems to me anytime anyone is shot in the back, it's murder. A cowards way...
But metro does no wrong, even when one of their cowboys is driving over 100 mph, no lights and no seat belt, they are still hailed a hero and their body paraded through town messing up the traffic.
Remind me to call Mr. Smith and Wesson or Mr. Colt and not metro next time there's a problem.
With these cowboys, nothing is impossible.
If the videotape from the store was recovered, there wouldn't be much need to send out these letters, so I get the impression that we're not going to ever see a videotape. Hopefully, I'm wrong. But it's like a chess game--you can sometimes look ahead a couple of moves to see what is coming.
Either way, I am glad Metro sent out the letters. As far as I'm concerned, the broader the investigation, the better. Once again, I really hope this effort isn't being executed to compensate for not having the tapes.
@lcare2009: your comment that criticized Brian J and suggested that it was Metro's investigation that led to Metro's admission of Manor causing the accident isn't really accurate. Calvin Darling had to hire a lawyer and two private detectives before the truth came out. What the Manor case really showed is that when you're in a position like the Scott or Cole families, you need to be prepared to use your own resources to get to the truth. It's kind of sad and not fair those without access to resources, but you can't really rely on all Metro officers to tell the truth.
How long before they start offering cash and valuable prizes to anyone willing to say the shooting was justified?
For all of you who have even the slightest ability to use and construct a logical argument, well, here we go.
You are a business owner. (large or small business, does not matter)
You need security cameras for your business, to protect your investment and to protect the safety of your employees, vendors and customers.
Who do you call to buy or lease those cameras? (Metro, right?)
Who do you call to install those cameras? (Metro, right?)
Who's resposible for the cameras' proper trajectory (what are pointed at)? (Metro, right?)
Who's responsible to make sure the cameras are recording at all times? (Metro, right?)
Who's responsible to maintain those cameras? (Metro, right?)
Who get blamed when an event occurs and the cameras don't have anything to show? (Metro, right?)
Be patient and allow the processes to go through and then, if you are still not happy with the outcome, suggest changes to the way things are done. (Be productive in your community)
Does anyone know who is behind the robo calls?
Worker, the one I received was from "the family of Erik Scott"
Here is a link to the story about who is behind the Robo calls. It was NOT the Scott family or any groups associated with them.http://www.lvrj.com/news/group-behind-erik-scott-calls-not-disclosed-100868019.html
The story was published in the RJ on Tues. I have been in communication with William Scott, Erik's father who told me that it was not from the family or any of their groups.
I find it odd that Metro is only interviewing customers who purchased something the day of the shooting. What about shoppers in the store who were ordered to evacuate and might have seen something? This seems to be a half-baked investigation.
@simplyhadenough. Metro has nothing to do with providing security cameras to any business. If a business want to use them, they hire a private firm to install and possibly monitor them. The issue with the letter is that memories have faded by this time. This should have been done much closer to the event. I am just not sure that you will get many people come forward and how reliable their memories will be. How many people that saw an accident stop and give statements? The best chance was to have sealed the parking lot on July 10 and gotten statements then.
@vegasbike. The only way that Costco knows exactly who is in the store is when they swipe your membership card when you check out. There is a visual check when you walk in. Would be interesting to see if the records show Erik Scott going through a check out line.
It seems that reason would have it that once you bought something you leave so the chances of seeing anything is some what Nil and how about the customers that didn't buy anything because they were told to evacuate. those are the ones you need to talk to the ones that were not allowed to make a purchase. Is metro trying to say if you didn't buy something then you weren't there!
@sigtwenty. I am not an expert, but would suspect that Costco could have had this data within 24 to 48 hours. It may have taken some time to get the Costco legal department to look at or get the court orders to get it released.
Tanker, thanks for the link. btw, I pressed # 2, I don't want their propaganda.
I am willing to wait for the facts.
@getalife. That is all I want as well.
There needs to be a search warrant from METRO.
This was such a tragic death. R.I.P. Eric Scott!
"Rivera said Metro investigators are still waiting to see video footage of the incident captured on Costco security cameras. A computer hard drive was sent to an off-site facility to attempt to retrieve the footage, he said."
This sounds suspicious. Does this mean that the original video on the hard drive was erased? Was evidence tampering involved?
Why was Scott carrying two guns to shop at Costco?
@saltydawg: because he can thats why he had a gun. it was legal for him to.
anyone that says that carrying a gun at a costco was not right ask the 95 year old lady that was killed recently. you people that say having a weapon is not ok are wrong. if i so choose to carry a gun i can with the proper license. its my right as an American citizen. and why do they need to send these tapes out of state to be reviewed. they should have been watched months ago. this whole thing does sound fishy.
@Tanker1975: "Would be interesting to see if the records show Erik Scott going through a check out line."
You bring up a very important point. If records show that Costco took money from Scott at the check out counter, it would substantially undercut any assertion that Scott was asked to leave. After all, who asks someone to leave and then rings them up at the check out counter?
@SummerlinCC - remember, the assertion is Scott was acting erratically, became even more so when the gun was observed, and was asked to leave. The assertion is that Scott did not leave when asked to do so, so if they did take money from him it proves he didn't leave. Af for your take, Costco may have taken him money to keep from agitating him even more.
It's just Metro CYA time - they know they better this time. This shooting will NOT be blown off as so many others have! Amazing! VOTE OUT GILLESPIE!!!
Mr Ed talking out the south end of a north bound horse?
Whodathunk?
I'm amazed that so many of you do not know how an investigation is conducted. Regarding witnesses, to be thorough, whether it is an auto accident or an incident such as this, it takes time. Don't forget - not only is this a police matter, but other factors weigh in such as is Costco liable for any of this, whether as a store or the employees involved because of Costco's insurance?
Just because the majority of you want your "theory" proven that the police did wrong, Metro and anyone else involved on that end are not going to speed things up to appease those who are ill-informed.
<<If I were one of the people who witnessed the murder of Erik Scott, I would be extremely careful about contacting the Las Vegas Metro Police Department. If I did contact the police and was persuaded to speak with a police officer about my account, I would certainly let someone know where I was going and what time I expected to return. Any movement while in the presence of Metro officers might well be interpreted as "furtive" and result in a judgment of guilty, a sentence of death imposed and an immediate execution of that sentence>>
Unbelievable comment!!! And assinine to boot!
<<I hope that the late Mr. Scott's family's lawyer is VERY aggressively pursuing Federal civil discovery of the 911 calls, security videos, witness statements to Metro, and even the names of the people who received these letters, because common sense and history show that as time goes on there is a huge opportunity for evidence tampering on the part of Costco let alone Metro. Preservation of evidence, and preventing the intimidation of witnesses is essential.>>
ANOTHER few reasons why Metro will do a 200% thorough investigation. And yes, I agree with an above poster - this is NOT CSI nor is it Law & Order. This is REAL LIFE.
I feel sorry for citizen of Las Vegas, having such kind of police, one of the worst in the world.
<<If the videotape from the store was recovered, there wouldn't be much need to send out these letters, so I get the impression that we're not going to ever see a videotape>>
The tape will corroborate what the witnesses tell police, ie see who was lying, who was buying that 200 oz jar of pickles at the time but told police they saw the whole thing and those who actually saw what happened.
Until the investigation is complete, and it may take months, those who are chomping at the bit here better relax because you won't know anything for a long time. You'll have another thing or two to bitch about by the time all the facts come out about this situation.
@Det_Munch. I think the concern is why was this done over a month after the shooting? Why wasn't this done the day of the incident or shortly there after. I am not an expert, but with the Costco computer systems you could get a list of everybody who checked out at that time. Then go to the membership lists to get addresses and contact them. Was the issue for the delay that Costco didn't want to release the information? If not why not? This is not a win-lose, both sides lose. The Scott family loses a son, and all of the good officers in Metro lose more of the public's trust. All I want is the truth so that we all know what happened and more importantly, how to keep it from happening again.
@Voice of Reason. That is a major part of the problem. How was he acting "erratically"? If he was acting so "erratically", is it not logical to assume that other customers would have been concerned and called 911. From the dispatch tapes, it appears that there was only one 911 call from a Costco employee. They say a picture is worth a thousand words or in this case hundreds of witnesses. What happened to the video from inside and outside Costco? Let's ask the question, would the video be available if a customer claimed that he/she was seriously injured by a box falling from the top shelf? What'a your best guess on the answer to that question? I hope that Metro is investigating what happened to the video with a view to criminal charges for evidence tampering.
"I guess Costco is afraid of a lawsuit from Scotts' family."
afraid? try soiling themselves with fear.
<<Let the FBI investigate this, and not metro!
Seems to me anytime anyone is shot in the back, it's murder. A cowards way...>>
LOLOLOL Another idiotic comment. Oh wait - another "UNINFORMED" COMMENT. This is NOT a federal case. It is a local. Sheesh!!!
The Costco employee errantly magnified an occurence to a situation that escalated into an emergency situation. In view of the recent work places shootings, Metro came with a mindset tha there was a "Killer on Rampage". He walked out like any other customer, but he got killed for his "indiscretions" inside the store but not for what he did or did't do outside the store.
tANKER
For Metro to get the info from Costco, there had to be "probable cause" to get a warrant for Costco to release that information. (And yes, there is probable cause) A warrant is issued by a judge. Pending on the probable cause - it may have taken this long because of other factors. For all we know - Costco may have been the entity that wished to get witness accounts, too. No one here really knows what is going on behind the scenes - and what everyone doesn't get - Metro cannot release info while an investigation is pending. They do not have to supply the public ANY information for that matter. I believe Metro is working very hard to do a thorough investigation. Just by what we know - there are WAY TOO MANY conflicting reports from witnesses, etc.
Also - SOMEONE has to go through all this information - experts, other Metro employees. This is NOT the only thing happening in Las Vegas at the moment. There is a whole city out there besides what happened that day at Costco.
If no witness steps forward, then the only recourse for the evaluators is to rely on the officers' reports.
@Voice of Reason: I find your claim that Costco might have taken Scott's money at the check out counter to avoid "agitating" him totally ridiculous. If he was at the check out counter and paying for his items, he was LEAVING THE STORE.
Beyond that, the fact that Scott was outside the store when he was shot indicates to me that he didn't "refuse to the leave the store." Someone that was refusing to leave the store would have been shot inside the store.
@Tanker1975 - I wasn't there, so I don't know what he was doing that cause the caller to say he was acting erratic. Were you there to be able to say he wasn't?
I don't believe it logical that others would have called 911 unless there was a physical altercation, and then I believe only about 50% would have called. How many times have you been in a store and observed someone who wasn't acting like they were all there? Did you call 911? Or, more than likely did you observe them for a couple of minutes them steered clear of them?
I would much prefer there be a video to show his actions; however, in the absence of video what the witnesses testify to is of the utmost importance. Like everyone else, I don't have a clue about what happened to the video. I do know they're not infallible.
None of us know why it's taken Metro so long to send letters to Costco customers. More than likely they sent a written request for the list and were denied. Then they get a subpoena, which would have required Court intervention. Costco may have then attempted to quash it, which required another hearing. I guess the argument could be made that Metro sent them out within 2 weeks and the Sun is just getting around to reporting it.
@SummerlinCC - if I'm is a store and my weapon that is to be concealed is visible, and I'm asked to leave I wouldn't argue that I had a permit to carry, I would immediately leave the store. I would not finish my shopping and stop to pay on my way out.
Immediately leaving is leaving the store.
Stopping to pay is not leaving the store when asked, it's an attempt to show you that I have the power.
An example of how to do it right from Albuquerque. This shooting occured a few days ago.
http://www.kob.com/article/11687/?vid=16...
@Voice_of_Reason. Do we know for a fact what happened inside the store? All we know is that a Costco employee called 911 to report a customer "acting erratically" who had a gun, and I believe that the dispatch tapes report the gun being in the back of his pants. I don't recall the dispatch tapes saying he had it out or was waving it around. Nor do I remember the dispatch tapes saying the he had been asked to leave and refusing.
Summerlin:
The original story said that Scott was "acting erratically," and an employee saw he had a gun, and asked him to leave the store....By telling the employee (a representitive of the store) that "I am a green beret," and I can have a gun, then he is NOT complying with the employee and thus is "refusing to leave."
Only after several minutes had passed and the store began to evacuate, did Scott walk out....
It only takes one employee to "ask" you to leave, and if you don't comply right away, then you are violating the trespass NRS.
Just like on your property, if you have a gathering, and a guest begins to act out, you have the right to ask them to leave. If they don't, now you may have them trespassed....
They do not have the right to argue on your property.
@Voice. Dates on letters as reported in other media is August 12.
@DevilDog. The only report of Erik of being a "green beret" was on the dispatch tape. A former Army officer would not be likely to claim that if he wasn't. There are many questions about what actually happened inside Costco and what the employee reported in the 911 call. Which is going to get a faster reaction? A former Army officer opening merchandise who has a concealed carry permit or A green beret with a gun going "berserk"? The only way we will know the truth is to match the 911 call with the video from inside and outside Costco. I just find it strange that if the Scott's actions were so threatening that there were not any other 911 calls from inside Costco. When did trespassing become a capital offense?
@Tanker1975 - no, we don't know for a FACT what happened inside or outside for that matter, other than Scott was shot. We all think we know, but our knowledge only comes from what the various media outlets have told us.
Once sworn testimony is given and the evidence presented, we will know the FACTS.
That being said, there have been media reports that Scott was asked to leave the store after the weapon was spotted. There have been media reports of witnesses who saw a gun in Scotts hand outside the store, and witnesses who didn't see a gun.
Tanker1975,
referring to my earlier post, I'm guessing you wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you on the A%$!
To help you figure it out, I'm trying to state that Metro gets blamed for things are NOT their responsibility, and some people just do not use their heads and think before they post.
So, in closing, and with less sarcasm, I'm guessing that if Costco's cameras did not record anything, due to the cameras being pointed in a wrong direction, or they were not recording at that moment or the lens was dirty, blocking or distorting the image or whatever reason the recording system did not work and provide the evidence needed, I'm sure you'll be first in line to blame Costco, and not Metro, right?
@Tanker1975 - so they're dated August 12th, that is less than 35 days after the incident. We don't know what process Metro had to use to get the customer list. Did the process cause the delay?
@ Voice of Reason: I find it odd that you say Scott claimed to be a Green Beret--can you tell me to whom he made this claim? Was it the Costco employee? Was this the same Costco employee told a 911 dispatcher that Scott was going "beserk" when a 72 year old man and his wife shopping next to Scott said that no such thing occurred? The only place we've heard "Green Beret" was on the dispatch tapes.
More than likely, Scott told the Costco employee that he had been in the Army to reinforce the fact that he was a responsible gun owner and the Coscto employee (who I guarantee will turn out to have never been in either the military or law enforcement) made up the Green Beret thing in the 911 call.
But let's just say your assumptions are correct. Assume that Scott was asked to leave the store (which we don't know yet), continued to shop and then went to the checkout counter to pay. At the time, the police approached Scott, he was outside of the store. If the Costco employee had honestly called the police because the issue was to get Scott out of the store, Scott was already outside of the store by the time the police first approached Scott. The "issue" of Scott leaving the store had already been resolved prior to the police approaching Scott.
Metro is stil left trying to explain why 2 rookies and 1 officer with a previous shoot and kill under his belt put 7 rounds into Erik Scott when the whole reason for the call had been resolved.
Tanker
Interesting video. Obviously a justified shooting if there ever was one! Had to be scarier then sh*t for the cop!!! But I don 't think you can compare this with the Costco incident other than the knife guy referred to in the video was a prime example of someone going "berserk"....and then some.
I know we are all second guessing what happened, but I have a feeling this Mr. Scott was acting like cops do when they are off duty: know it alls who are better than you because [fill in the blank]
Also wasn't Mr. Scott with his girlfriend when this happened? If so - what did she tell police?
@Det_Munch. I was refering to how the Police Chief handled himself and how he clearly and accurately explained what was going on. Can we get him to move here? Girl friend was there, but hasn't said anything publically since the shooting. She was so distraught that she was not able to speak at the Memorial Service a week later.
Floyd_M "The Costco employee erratically magnified an occurrence to a situation that escalated into an emergency situation. In view of the recent work places shootings, Metro came with a mindset that there was a "Killer on Rampage". He walked out like any other customer, but he got killed for his "indiscretions" inside the store but not for what he did or didn't do outside the store."
From everything written to date I think this statement sums it up well.
Working with such systems I would bet the surveillance system records on a hard drive in the store and is also streamed to a remote corporate location. They do this so corporate can see what is going on in any location, keep an eye on store employees, and for redundancy.
One reasonable reason the video evidence would be lost would be if it was allowed to erase by not saving it. Too much time was allowed before saving the files and it simply looped backed and recorded new data over old. You would figure it would have capacity for days if not weeks. But if Metro or Costco is not looking to recover what happened they could have just let the system run until it erased itself. Wasn't it about a month later when Metro was looking for video evidence? Letting time go to destroy evidence naturally.
@Active1. Metro got the video fairly quickly, within 24 hours I believe. The issue has been viewing it. The Sheriff said that the video was "corrupted" and Metro sent it to a lab in CA. The Sheriff later stated that he doubted any usable images would ever be recovered. The question that I have is if a customer had claimed to be injured by a falling box inside Costco would the video be "corrupted"?
<The question that I have is if a customer had claimed to be injured by a falling box inside Costco would the video be "corrupted"?>
Probably. Lots of times stores just pay a settlement to avoid any litigation. I believe that is what they pay insurance for. Too many scammers out there.
Also, yes I admired the police chief in how he handled things in that video. But he also had a LOT to go on before making those statements. The police officer shooting the suspect was totally justified and had what seemed to be very reliable eye witness testimony. In this Vegas case, too many discrepancies. Maybe even too many witnesses, which is always a problem since some "say" they were right there when it happened but were actually 50 ft away looking at toilet paper but swear they saw the whole thing (that elderly couple??). And then there is the "word of mouth" people - so and so knows exactly what happened because he heard it from the butcher who heard it from the guy in electronics who heard it from the guy stacking soap (who was also listening to his Ipod at the time) who then told a friend he saw and heard it all. That's why the letters went out - to solidify what solid eye witness accounts they may already have.
PS I'm sure the girlfriend has been questioned by the police by now and also Costco's legal counsel.
BTW - those surveillance cameras stores use are not as high tech and sophisticated as let's say the ones casinos use. Most stores and malls are the same. They're good but not excellent. Who knows - maybe Costco never maintained their surveillance cameras like some places do like minimarts which are prone to get robbed all the time. I mean, this Costco IS in Summerlin!!!
@Det-Much:
"
<<Let the FBI investigate this, and not metro!
Seems to me anytime anyone is shot in the back, it's murder. A cowards way...>>
LOLOLOL Another idiotic comment. Oh wait - another "UNINFORMED" COMMENT. This is NOT a federal case. It is a local. Sheesh!!!"
=====
You need to do a little more homework. Police excessive use of force is indeed a federal case under Section 1983.
@SummerlinCC - where did I say Scott claimed to be a Green Beret? I don't recall saying it and when I search for green or beret I don't find it in any of my posts.
I still maintain when Scott was asked to leave, which had been reported in various articles, he should have immediately left the store, no more shopping, don't worry about putting the ice cream back in the freezer, paying, using the restroom, etc. Leave means leave. If Scott didn't do exactly that, he was refusing to leave.
The only relevance this has to do with the shooting is to show his "state of mind". The bottom line in all of this is going to be did Scott pull his weapon and/or point his weapon at the police.
All of this other stuff is "fluff" that the people wanting to hang Metro are trying to focus on. All it does is help paint a broader picture.
I want to know what he did, if anything, that caused him to be shot. As I've maintained all along, if he pulled his gun or wouldn't drop his gun if he already had it in his hand, he was a treat. If he pointed his gun he was a threat.
again, a tragedy for sure but why did a medical devices salesman need to walk around the general public at costco with two concealed weapons? it's summerlin, not iraq.
i can not imagine an inteligent reason why metro is entitled to this private info and not the family. i would hope that cosco would at least be the only one to have the names and addresses and send out only a request with metro and the family law firm numbers
@Voice of Reason: My bad, the first part of the post should have been directed at DevilDog--he was the one saying Scott claimed to be a Green Beret.
The relevance of Scott's activity inside the store has a great deal to do with the situation. Remember, we're not just considering the "state of mind" of Erik Scott. We're really considering the "state of mind" of the officers that approached Scott. Did they get stressed and issue conflicting commands as a result of that stress? Did the officers made a first-hand assessment of the situation when they arrived on the scene or did they rely solely on third hand reports given to them over the radio?
You say that if Scott pulled his weapon, he was a threat. But if Scott reached for his weapon because an officer ordered him to disarm (as some eyewitnesses claim), Scott was only pulled his weapon because an officer directed him to disarm a weapon that was not being brandished. Law enforcement officers are supposed to let the suspect action determine the suspect's response, not the other way around.
Now I've heard some argue that even if the officers gave the wrong orders or conflicting orders, Scott should have just kept his hands up. But that is blaming the victim. CCW holders are taught to listen to police orders if there is a run-in. It's law enforcement's job to de-escalate the situation.
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/ar...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-...
http://mostlywater.org/pivot_files_compl...
http://www.journalstandard.com/highlight...
http://policelegal.com/2010/05/26/dash-c...
http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index...
http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/index... (FBI investigates)
http://198.173.75.66/fastnews/dailies/20...
http://www.leavenworthtimes.com/news/x88...
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories...
Ok there are a lot of links that I have posted here. They are all police shootings that have one thing in common. The investigations were conducted by OUTSIDE agencies. Gillespie or Rogers should ask the FBI to investigate this shooting.
Summerlin,
You and a lot of folks are jumping to so many conclusions without the benefit of ANY REAL EVIDENCE!
There ARE CONFLICTING WITNESSES that claim that sawthat Scott did and did not point a gun at police...There are conflicting statements about how he was acting in the store...
You also claim that one of the officers is trigger happy, because he was involved in a prior OIS? So if he was killed during the prior event, what would you call him now???? DEAD.
If Scott did not claim to be a "green beret," then why was it in the original story?
The original story said that Scott was acting erratically and refued to leave the store...
The police recording also said he was reported to be acting erratic and refused to leave.
How are "rookie cops" supposed to become "veteran cops."
You have also made claims in the past that the police gave "conflicting commands." Were you a witness to this?
Many commands can be given in a very short period of time, depending on the actions of the suspect...Cops don't order a person to "disarm," unless the gun is in the hand at the time...
Why would ANYONE with any kind of brain tell a person with a gun, "please pull out your deadly weapon, and put it on the ground...oh and by the way please don't shoot me."
Metro is trained to order people to keep their hands up away from any weapons...If the officer said "put your hands up," and the suspect pulled out a gun, then the next command would be "DROP IT!" If the suspect pointed the gun anywhere other than puting it on the ground, then depending on how many officers were there and saw a threat to another person, shots would be fired...All of this could take place in a very few seconds....
Have you EVER MADE A LIFE AND DEATH DECISION IN 3-4 SECONDS? Probably not.
That's not a lot of time to "De-escalate" a situation.
@DevilDog. The dispatch recording are reporting what the only 911 call from inside Costco was reporting. You know the one made by a Costco employee. Which is going to get a response from Metro, and how are the officers going to respond to each?
1. There is a former Army officer in the store opening a case of waterbottles. He is carrying a gun, but has a concealed weapon permit.
2. There is a green beret in the store going "beserk" and destroying merchandise. He has a gun.
The issues can be resolved very simply by viewing the video from inside and outside Costco that day. But somehow, they have been "corrupted" and images may never be useable. I ask the same question, if a customer claimed to be injured when a box fell off the top shelf, would they be "corrupted"? We have seen too much video in the past several days of the car involved in the mugging and murder of the 95 year old lady outside a Smith's to buy that arguement that most video is not useable.
So tell me, how does an employee know this guy is a "former army offier," and not a nut job witha gun in the store...WE DON'T KNOW what was going on...We have bits and pieces from several "eyewitnesses" that saw different things.
If the video is good, then by all means we can view it at the inquest...But until then, we cannot say for sure that Scott was not acting erratically....We cannot say for sure that he was "opening the bottles to see if they would fit in a backpack."
We do know he had a gun, we know the employee was told he was a "green beret," and that he did not leave when asked...He told the employee that he could have a gun in the store.
We know these things becaue they were reported to police by the employee..
Why would the employee lie? What possible motive is there behind it?
We will not see ANY evidence until the inquest no matter how much people cry about the video.
I know that cops go into each call with only what info is given them on the way there...But I do know from experience that two of these 3 officers are very intelligent, and cool headed....One is a college grad like Scott....and not the "young rookie" that some here portray (summerlinCC)
I also think that having a preconcieved notion about one of the officers being involved in a prior OIS is beside the point....He was forced to defend himself before, and quite possibly had to do it again....The prior instance has no bearing on this case.
All this speculation is not doing anyone any good...Wait for the inquest, quit bashing the cops that were there when you weren't until after the inquest.
If you think it's such a bad thing, GO TO THE INQUEST, it might just open your eyes.
@DevilDog: You talk about jumping to conclusions without any facts?
Give me the name of one eyewitness that claimed to see Scott point an gun at police, as you assert. There are conflicting eyewitness statements as to whether Scott reached for and/or pulled his gun. I have yet to hear of a single eyewitness that backed Metro's story that Scott pointed his gun at officers.
You ask, '"If Scott did not claim to be a "Green Beret," then why was it in the original story?"'
What original story? You mean the story where a Costco employee told a 911 dispatcher who told responding police officers that Scott claimed to have said "something like" he was "Green Beret" and was going "beserk"? You're not exactly basing your comments on first-hand eyewitness accounts. Scott probably told the Costco employee that he'd been in the Army and the minimum wage Costco employee more than likely embellished the story, just as he did with the going "beserk" story that already has been contradicted by multiple eyewitnesses in the store.
You ask: "Why would ANYONE with any kind of brain tell a person with a gun, "please pull out your deadly weapon, and put it on the ground".
By all accounts, the only individuals that had guns in their hands at the time the officers approached Scott were the officers themselves. The officer that yelled "Drop It" might well have known Scott had a weapon on him, even though he didn't see the gun and given the improper command.
And finally: "Metro is trained to order people to keep their hands up away from any weapons"
YES! YES! THANK YOU! That is exactly what Metro should have ordered Scott to do. Except "Get Your Hands Up" is the one command that not a single eyewitness heard police give. That should have been the FIRST and ONLY command given when Scott was first approached outside of the store without a weapon in his hand.
Look, all these questions will be resolved by the videotape. So just RELEASE THE TAPES.
<Police excessive use of force is indeed a federal case under Section 1983.>
"Excessive use of force" has not been determined as yet.
@bldblu: I think Metro's greatest fear is that they'll announce the Costco videotape is corrupted and have the DA proceed with evidence indicating the officers were justified only to find out that one of the 100+ people at the scene captured the incident on cell phone video and that the cell phone video contradicts Metro's version.
In the aftermath of the Darling and Cole cases, such an occurrence would shake the foundations of Metro PD in the way that the Serpico scandal shook the foundation of the NYPD in the 70's or the way the Rampart CRASH scandal shook up LAPD in the 90's.
@SummerlinCC - based on the dispatch tape the officers already knew Scott was armed. They would not have allowed him or ordered him to remove the gun from his waistband or holster, because once the gun was in his hand he became a threat to everyone in the area.
If he came out of the store with the gun in his hand, which I've not read or heard that he did, then they would have told him to drop the weapon. If he didn't do so, he became a threat to everyone in the area.
What do you mean "Law enforcement officers are supposed to let the suspect action determine the suspect's response, not the other way around."? Don't you really mean they are supposed to let the suspects action determine their response?
CCW holders are taught alot of things. One is to keep your weapon concealed, something Scott didn't do. Another is to immediately leave if asked to do so, which based on the dispatch tape Scott didn't do.
Based on the dispatch tape, the officers didn't have time to assess the situation before the shots were fired.
Summerlin,
You are making my point for me, and doing exactly what you are accusing me of...I am not jumping to conclusions....YOU ARE...you claim that a "minimum wage Costco employee" lied or "embellished" the story? To what end?
Why would the employee tell a 911 call taker, that Scott said he was a green beret, if he didn't say it?
How would the employee know what to say if Scott had not said it?
You say that there were conflicting commands because you read it in the paper...Well there were commands, and there were witness statements in the paper, and on the news that would back each side...Again all this is third and fourth hand FROM BOTH SIDES...
Again, for your minute fund of legal information...YOU WILL NOT SEE ANY EVIDENCE UNTIL THE INQUEST....STOP WHINING ABOUT RELEASING ANY TAPES...They cannot be released until the inquest.
Go to the inquest, and observed how it works, and then you can have first hand knowledge of the system at work.
And once again, if Scott was asked to leave, and left the store without any argument or confrontation with any employees, then this would not be an issue at all.
@Summerlin - wouldn't you agree there are witnesses who haven't been heard from yet? It's been my experience that most witnesses who talk to the media have an "axe to grind" so to speak. It will be interesting to hear what those witnesses who haven't talked to the media have to say. Will their stories back Metro or go against Metro?
I would bet as part of the interview process that Metro has asked if the people have pictures or video of the event. I don't think there will be a witness who suprises them with the video. And if they do, their credibility will be called into question if they originally said they didn't have any.
@DevilDog: No, I'm not jumping to conclusions. If you notice, I used the word "probably". I'm not making statements of facts, just probability. I answered all of your other questions, if you actually take the time to read. Why would a Costco employee employee say that Scott was a Green Beret when he wasn't? For the same reason the Costco employee appears to have misrepresented Scott's behavior inside the store. The employee could have just been trying to "stick" it to Scott, could have wanted to get the police to respond faster by embellishing the story, etc.
And no, I'm not basing my comments on third and fourth hand information. I'm only referring to the first-hand accounts that have been given to the media in TV interviews and newspaper articles.
@Voice of Reason: "Based on the dispatch tape the officers already knew Scott was armed. They would not have allowed him or ordered him to remove the gun from his waistband or holster, because once the gun was in his hand he became a threat to everyone in the area."
How do you know a rookie officer wouldn't have given him the wrong order? The "right" order was to order Scott to raise his hands. Yet none of the officers appeared to give Scott the "right" order according to eyewitnesses. So if the officer didn't give the "right" order, what makes you assume they didn't give the "wrong" order?
@Voice of Reason: I disagree. Video, even a cell phone video, can easily be verified as legitimate or not. So say someone comes forward in November with a cell phone video before the election, but after the inquest. Do you think it diminishes the credibility of video? I don't.
You may question the character or intestinal fortitude of the person that chooses not to immediately offer such cell phone video up sooner, but I don't think it diminishes the credibility of the videotape at all.
They just announced today that the coroner's inquest will be on Sept 22nd. I've been a rabid defender of Metro in the past but something just seems wrong about this case. I hope it isn't another rubber stamp justified shooting decision. At the very least this case should be investigated by an outside impartial agency.
@SummerlinCC - I didn't say the credibility of the video would be called into question. I said the credibility of the witness would be called into question.
If you listen to the dispatch tape, about half way through the tape, a minute or so before an officer reports shots fired, you can clearly hear an officer on the dispatch tapes identify Scott's location in the store. If they could identify his location in the store, they would have had some time to observe and assess what was going on.
@SummerlinCC - How do you know a rookie officer gave him the wrong order? Because you want it to be true?
We've been through this time after time. The eyewitnesses that have been heard from have sought out the media. IMO, they have a reason for doing so, and it isn't normally to get the real story out.
We don't know what the witnesses who haven't been heard from will say. Perhaps they will mirror those who have been heard from, or they will have a totally different story. Some of those unheard from witness may very well say he was told to raise his hands or show me your hands. We'll have to wait and see.
I've said before, if you look back at an inquest from a year ago, there was a witness who sought out the paper. She told them she saw everything and when she confronted the officers, which she said she didn't know were officers, they told her to get in her car and leave. As a side note, if you didn't know or think they were officers, why would you confront someone who you just saw shoot someone? Wouldn't you be afraid they might shoot you?
The 911 call was played for the jury and you could hear the officer tell her to get back in her car and someone would come talk to her in a few minutes.
When the witness was asked about the 911 recording she said it didn't happen that way.
The point of this is we don't know what audio recordings there might be or what will be heard on them. If the original caller had exited when Scott did, the recording may have captured all of the commands given to Scott.
I'm curious, what verdict are you wanting, criminal, excusable, justified?
"I'm curious, what verdict are you wanting, criminal, excusable, justified?"
...I'm not sure to whom this was addressed, but I want the truth. By the way, are those three, criminal, excusable, or justified, the only three choices? Obviously, this was a criminal act, an innocent man was gunned down. Now it may indeed be excusable or justified(by the way #2, what is the difference between these two choices?), but if it is, then there should be some kind of explanation as to why exactly it is excusable or justified.
Tanker,
You become a cop, and go to a call of an armed man acting erratically in a crowded store...What is your first concern? The armed man or trying to get as many people out safely as possible?
You have mere moments to make decisions that not only will effect you life, but the lives of countless innocent people as well.
I was in the military as well as a lot of other folks, and I had a combat unit in DS1.
I know that the decisions made by a combat commander effect many people, but not nearly as many as the decisions these officers had to make...in milliseconds...
There may not have been "time to assess" the situation, because Scott may have exited the store.
Go to the inquest, listen and observe all the evidence, then make an EDUCATED decision as to the actions of the officers...All we can do here is make guesses and supositions.
@enteaser - actually the question was posed to SummerlinCC, but of course anyone is free to anwer it.
When the instructions are read to the jury they are given a detailed explaination of the criteria needed to find a verdict of justified, excusable, or criminal.
Just because the victim was innocent of any crimes doesn't mean the taking of his life was criminal. Sometimes innocent people make deadly mistakes.
Voice_of_Reason,
"Just because the victim was innocent of any crimes doesn't mean the taking of his life was criminal. Sometimes innocent people make deadly mistakes."
...Didn't I say the same thing?
"Obviously, this was a criminal act, an innocent man was gunned down. Now it may indeed be excusable or justified(by the way #2, what is the difference between these two choices?), but if it is, then there should be some kind of explanation as to why exactly it is excusable or justified."
...Sometimes cops make deadly mistakes.
@enteaser - if it's justified or excusable, it can't be criminal.
Devildog, Voice of Reason, and Munch: Since the 3 of you seem to be Metro, or at least Metro spouses, would 1 of you explain to me why Scott wasn't approached in the store, where it would have been 3 officers and a suspect, instead of ordering an evacuation, which put Erik Scott in the middle of hundreds of people when the shooting started? The scenario of 80 shots and 5 hits could have been repeated with serious consequences. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who has seen a Metro take-down, with half a dozen officers all shouting orders at the same time. If you guys style yourselves as a paramilitary organization, why isn't the senior man in charge, and the one giving orders? You folks don't seem to have grasped the idea that you are all in extra danger by things like the Cole killing; I am pretty sure a suspect would shoot it out with you when trapped, because so many people in So. Nev. expect law enforcement here to be unfair, bloodthirsty, trigger happy, and borderline nuts. I know there are thousands of good folks at Metro --- I have several friends and neighbors who are Metro, but you folks need to police your own organization to weed out the trouble, instead of rabidly calling people stupid for expressing their concerns. The officer who killed Cole either lied so he could be part of a big operation, or he did really sloppy police work on history and priors. 1 of the concerns is that 1 of the Costco officers had a prior OIS; how does he get to kill 2 people, when most of you can go an entire career without getting 1? Or the Henderson uniform, who beat-up the 84 year old deaf man --- what happened to the officer? You have to see why you folks are taking Philadelphia's place as the city where the citizens are more afraid of the cops than they are the bad guys.
@NomorePC. Add Devildog to that list please.
It is funny how some think that they will be taken to another place if they talk to metro... Yep a spaceship with aliens are waiting for you down at the copshop...Its 2010 not 1975... Plus metro is grasping at anything to get their rears out of the firepit.. Why do this now and is this not an invasion of privacy... Looks as it could be so... Metro should be an stand up organization and tell it like it is and not hide behind delayed inquests...Anyways whoever gets on the spaceship to wherever metro takes you,, can you send me back a Harley shirt.....lol
I can't wan't until Sept 22 for Metro to be once again off the hook for something their officers done. That poor man is still in a deep freezer, since the family sees that the Hearing will be another rubber stamp for Metro. The family will then get an independent autopsy and their own investigation team to tell the truth.
I know that some law enforcement officer carry two pistols while on duty, and that Scott was legally entitled to carry two concealed handguns.
But what I would like to know is WHY Scott felt it necessary to carry two concealed handguns to go shopping at CostCo. Was he expecting a shoot out with the police?
Voice_of_Reason
I respectfully request that you change your nom de plume as you don't seem to be reasonable. I said, and I repeat...
"Obviously, this was a criminal act..."
maybe not in the legal sense but surely as in #5...
criminal (krim nl)
adjective
1) having the nature of crime; being a crime
2) involving or relating to crime
3) dealing with law cases involving crime
4) guilty of crime
5) Informal regrettable or deplorable
...whatever the verdict from the coroner's inquest, it will still be a criminal act! Sheesh!!!!
@NoMorePC - not Metro, not a Metro spouse.
Everyone who has commented on this story KNOWS that if METRO had even 1 witness to testify on their behalf,their would be no need to request shoppers to come forward after 2 months
within 30 minutes of post situation at costco,the security tapes would have been sequestered
I really wanted to play devils advocate here,but in all honesty,their is nothing anyone can say supporting this case,with the INFORMATION we all have recieved up to this point
this is so far out of normal parameters for an investigation of this type,it is almost unfathonable to hear/read the tangibles referring to this case
whether you side with metro,or the family of the deceased,one thing is very consistent,and that is that there is alot of gray area
somebody at that store that afternoon KNOWS EXACTLY what transpired,and I guarantee the investigators have dismissed that person.
if METRO had even anything concrete,they would not have brought on the media blast,and would have quelled this long ago,BUT they dont
argue all you want about how they are just doing their investigative job.that just is not the case here or should i say that they have done their investigative homework,but the formula they are concluding is not a favorable one to present
interesting that on that noon hour of said day,the security tapes become unrecordable,unwatchable,and even more amazing is that some company out in california cant retrieve the lost information AS OF YET
Anyone in data loss could give you verdict of the outcome of that data in a week if they were a legitimate company specializing in recovery
NEVADA either has the data or NOT!
the only reason to even focus on this security tape is because of the simple fact that right now,if the so called witnesses have conflicting stories,then the security tape would be the evidence to squash this,BUT imagine that there is no security tape!
peace out
and again i am a closeted supporter of METRO,and have alot of respect for their jobs,and i understand all of the scenarios that get played out daily,BUT i am not referring to any of that.
this opinion is solely expressed by me,and only me
NoNorePC:
I would only speculate that Scott wasn't approached in the store because officers were waiting for as many citizens to leave as possible before confronting the subject. Once he was pointed out be an employee as the subject with a gun, they had to act.
You are lumping the Cole shooting in with this one....Apples and oranges...One was a search warrant, the other a call for service.
One of these officers had been involved in a prior shooting, yes...Does that mean he can no longer be a policeman if he had to use his weapon in the line of duty?
Does that mean he has to become an unarmed guard since he was forced to defend himself before?
If you get in a traffic accident, no matter if you are at fault or not, should you lose your license forever?
Thank goodness that most officers do not have to fire their gun in the line of duty, but if they do are they automatically now "trigger happy?"
I love the way that folks compare every police agency in the country/area with each other..."If Henderson did that, all cops are bad...If Metro did this, all cops do it."
Each angecy is different, has different policies and different ways of handling situations...
And of course the police are ALWAYS at fault, not the people whose actions dictate how the cops respond.
I'm not saying all cops are right either, but when something like this happens, there are always a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks who were not there, not in the situation, have never been in a situation like that, who are going to be the "all knowing guru" of how cops should have handled every situation...
If you have so many concerns abou how police do their jobs, contact Metro, go on a ride along, go thru a citizens academy, see how officers are trained first hand, then make an educated decision.
Also, go to the inquest, or if televised, watch it on tv, see the evidence presented, then make an informed decision as to the officers actions.
@DevilDog:
Have you EVER MADE A LIFE AND DEATH DECISION IN 3-4 SECONDS?
Sure. Plenty of times.
What's the big deal?
Isn't the need for thousands and thousands of cops premised on needing to "protect" citizens from the bad guys? Don't you think maybe, just maybe, a citizen or two has had to deal with one of those bad guys? Which, of course, says nothing of dealing with Metro. Apparently, T. Cole, Erik Scott, and the other Metro victims didn't deal with it so well. But then how where they to know Metro would kill them?
=====
Beware GESTAPO 911.
Devildog: With all due respect, if Metro was waiting for as many customers as possible to leave, why take him in the flood of the evacuation where there were a hundred times as many people in Scott's immediate vicinity?
The Cole shooting is not apples and oranges: it is another Metro officer shooting and killing a citizen for what appears to be no reason. A "furtive movement"? If the story in the paper had the circumstances right, Metro forced a 9 months pregnant woman to lie on her stomach; my theory is that when she made some sound from the pain, Cole turned to see what they were doing to her, and a Metro officer who had lied to get the whole episode started shot Cole in the head. Why was the weapon pointed at his head? Why were they in a tiny, crowded bathroom, instead of her sitting on the toilet and him spread-eagled on the floor in the bedroom?
Defend himself again: that's my point --- what is he doing to get himself into situations where he has to shoot? And by all accounts he didn't have to defend himself from Cole, who supposedly was on his knees in the bathroom with his hands interlocked on top of his head.
Henderson: Is a valley agency, and a strikingly similar pattern of action; they are also widely perceived as shoot first, ask questions later.
Always at fault: Neither I nor many of the posters here say cops are ALWAYS at fault, but the Metro folks and the Metro groupies who post here DO imply that cops are NEVER at fault; it's always the folks on the receiving end. It's the rabid defense of every cop's every action that throws us; a 3,000 officer department can't have 3,000 perfect people.
And the part that will haunt Metro forever is the story that the video is no good; like 1 of the folks above said; if there was an injury in the store, Costco would have a perfectly good copy available in minutes. The video of the getaway car from the 95 year old lady's murder was broadcast within minutes. And weeks in California?
Manor, Beitel, NHP, et al: In spite of the deaths, everyone posting here can tell you about cops driving like crazy people; just yesterday afternoon a Metro black & white flew by me when I was doing 10 over the limit. The uniform was driving 1 handed, right elbow on the console, no mike, just speeding because she can. Please don't tell me she was responding as quickly as possible, that we would have bitched if she took too long to save someone's life --- she went to Burger King.
Your union president saying you won't wear seat belts? Then don't ticket a civilian who doesn't.
Like I said, I have friends who are on the job, but I say law enforcement has a P.R. problem, but instead of addressing it and doing something about it, it's become an us versus them mentality. Loosen up, try to see things from the other side's point of view.
@Voice of Reason: "The eyewitnesses that have been heard from have sought out the media."
You're wrong. I suggest you go back and watch the Channel 3 interview with Robert Garcia on Wednesday, 7/28. Garcia is an eyewitness that was 10 feet away from Scott when he was killed and claimed Scott was not a threat. At the end of the story, the reporter and anchor specifically state that they knew Garcia was at the store, but that Garcia did not come to them--the reporter went to him and had to work to convince Garcia to go on camera.
"How do you know a rookie officer gave him the wrong order? Because you want it to be true?"
I don't know that a rookie officer gave him the wrong order. But it does appear that none of the officers gave Scott the "right order" to raise his hands. We have also heard that an officer ordered Scott to "drop it" which would have been the wrong order if Scott didn't have a weapon in his hand at the time. This was far from a "by the book" operation.
"I'm curious, what verdict are you wanting, criminal, excusable, justified?"
I don't want a specific verdict. I want the truth. I want to know the specific series of events that led to the killing of a law-abiding citizen that appeared to be doing nothing more than shopping at a Costco on a Saturday afternoon. I want to see the videotape, I want to hear from the Costco employee, Scott's girlfriend and the officers that killed Scott. I want to have some reassurance that the process for investigating officer involved shootings is one that has integrity. And I want to know what will be done to ensure that this type of incident never happens again.
SummerlinCC: I agree wholeheartedly on the integrity of the investigation; it is inconceivable to me that Metro would even WANT to handle the investigation, let alone insist on it. An outside agency, like the FBI, should handle something like this --- yes, I know it's not Federal --- YET, because there WILL be civil rights issues regardless of the inquest's results. Metro investigating itself is absurd; why can't a murder suspect investigate his own crime? Impartiality. And for Metro to not see why the public is skeptical? Or maybe they just don't give a damn --- we're Metro, go to hell.
@SummerlinCC - how do you know what the "right order" is. When I've gone on ride alongs the officers are always telling people to "let me see your hands", "keep your hands where I can see them". The only place I've ever heard "raise your hands" is on Gunsmoke.
What is a "by the book" operation? How do you know up until the shooting it wasn't "by the book"?
What qualifications do you have that makes you an expert on police matters?
You don't want a specific verdict, you just want the truth. I don't buy that, I think you've already made up your mind.
@SummerlinCC: It is very obvious you have a lot of time on your hands and are very passionate about this incident for one reason or another. I think that is a good thing, however, you are trying to create a lot of controversy over something you know little about. Very few facts have been presented in this case to the public. With the facts available we can only form a couple of solid conclusions. Scott had two guns in Costco, one of which became exposed. He was asked to leave which he refused to do and created some sort of disturbance which prompted Costco employees to call 911. In the police radio traffic released to the public, the dispatcher told officers he was showing signs of "ED" and stated he was a green beret, which is his not. Right there, if in the 911 tapes or any of the witnesses' state he said he was a green beret at the inquest, that is enough for me. If the dispatcher told the officers Scott stated he was a green beret, then the Costco employee must have told 911, and they did not know he was in the Army, then why would they make that up? Green Berets are elite special forces soldiers that risk their lives daily to protect this Country and our rights. For someone that did not even finish his commitment to the Army after they gave him a few hundred thousand dollar education and then to say he was a green beret is unacceptable. Make all the excesses you want about the down sizing of the military, West Point cadets made a commitment to the Army and that commitment should be filled.
Also, in your last comment, you are assuming Scott did not have a gun in his hand when the officer said drop it. Metro said he pointed a gun at them, so the officer saying drop is is in line with the story the first told the public.
With all the facts presented at this point, it is clear a law-abiding citizen was not killed at Costco on Saturday because a law-abiding citizen would have left Costco as soon as he was told too. And you will see the video, hear from witnesses, and hear from the officers, on Sept 22-24th. And something like this will happen again because we live in a city with the one of the highest crime rates in the country. Eventually, the police will have to shoot someone else. Welcome to the real world, away from Summerlin.
@NoMorePC - according to the article today, Cole was in the bathroom and his girlfriend was found hiding in a closet. Based on this your theory in the Cole matter has been debunked.
Voice of Reason: And you believe that she was allowed to stay in the closet? Really? That she wasn't brought out into the room? That the fact she says she was forced to lie on her stomach is immaterial? That she subsequently gave birth shortly thereafter?
Again, why was he in the small, crowded bathroom with several officers, instead of in a larger room, where both he and the officers would have been safer? An AR-15 in a room full of people?
Again, the rabid defense.
I hope that witnesses to the event come forward to say what they saw. I am a bit troubled that Costco didn't wait for a warrant before giving out personal information about their customers but if you have any shopper card you just gave away your information.
Privacy is a thing of the past these days
@NoMorePC - Did you bother to even read the article?
Here are some links for you:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jun...
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/jun...
Neither of them say she was forced to lie on her stomach or that she gave birth shortly thereafter, only that she was taken into custody.
As for him, the article says he was found hiding in the bathroom. Other than to flush the evidence I can't think of why he would have picked that room to hide.
@Cashman - why do you think they didn't wait for a warrant? The letters weren't sent until 30 days after the shooting, which leads me to believe they did wait.
@NoMorePC - in the original articles, Cole's girlfriend said he had his hand in the air when they shot him.
Today at the inquest she testified "I was coming out, and they told me to get on the floor. I heard a gun shot and was trying to see what was happening and where they had shot him."
The article went on to say the family was mourning the loss of a loved one and getting ready for the birth of Cole's baby girl.....
I guess somemore of your theories have been debunked!
Voice of Reason: you're trying too hard; "hands in the air", as in up, but up how? Loose in the air, like one of the other folks on here said they do only on gunsmoke, or fingers interlaced on his head or behind his neck, like good police work would have required? "They told me to get on the floor"; I'm pretty sure I asked why a 9-month pregnant woman had to get on the floor --- why not a chair. And you are reading things into one newspaper account --- the other things I said were all brought out on TV 3 & TV 8 news stories.
@NoMorePC - after listening to about 6 minutes of her testimony, she said his hands were about chest high and the palms point away from his body.
She also admitted she told detective on 2 seperate occasions that she didn't see anything.
Did she or didn't she? She can't have it both ways.
Second officer in the Suave Lopez shooting was Christopher Cannon, who was also involved in the Cole case.
This whole thing stinks. The police and the Costco security guard escalated a shopping trip into a tragedy, plain and simple. All they had to do was discreetly observe this guy's demeanor for 30 seconds to realize the costco rent-a-cop exaggerated in the 911 call.
The shouting of multiple conflicting commands by three different officers, the unnecessary call to police in the first place, and the bungled, amateur, swat style take-down are what led to this killing.
The man was a model citizen. He didn't deserve this, and although this will cost Metro millions, it won't be enough to undo this tragedy.
The best way to honor the memory of this man is to hold those responsible accountable, and change the way MWAG (Man With A Gun) calls are handled from here forward.
This is state is an open-carry, shall-issue concealed license state, with many thousands of law-abiding gun toters. This could happen to any of them. The only way for Metro to move beyond this is to admit the mistakes that were made and make sure they never happen again.
BTW, he didn't pull the gun. That will become very clear as the case unfolds.