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Wednesday, Aug. 18, 2010 | 2 a.m.
Lynn Warne
Arne Duncan
Sun coverage
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- Nevada eliminated from education grant competition (7-28-2010)
- Six talented teachers talk about merits of merit pay (5-16-2010)
- Nevada out of ‘race’ for innovation funding (11-14-2009)
- For shot at a jackpot, state must ante up, alter law (10-25-2009)
- Merit pay: How best to decide who earns it at schools (10-15-2009)
- School District again taking heat for unequal achievement (8-16-2009)
- Teachers do a 180 for sake of grants (11-25-2009)
- Nevada eliminated from education grant competition (7-28-2010)
- Teacher merit award slip-slide away (4-9-2008)
Imagine that before sending your child to school this year, you could go online and find out how well previous students of your child’s new teacher have performed on standardized tests.
For Los Angeles residents, that will be a reality by the end of the month.
Nevada parents will have to wait at least three years, according to the Nevada Education Department.
Using data that the Los Angeles Unified School District has collected but never analyzed, the Los Angeles Times will publish a database of more than 6,000 elementary school teachers ranked by their ability to improve students’ scores on standardized tests.
Nevada collects data on test scores, but it does not break the numbers down by teacher, officials said. But the state is taking steps in that direction, according to Gloria Dopf, deputy superintendent for instruction at the Nevada Education Department.
A 2005 state law prohibited test scores from being used to evaluate teachers before it was changed by the Legislature in February. The change was made to allow the state to apply for federal “Race to the Top” grants, which Nevada did not win.
As part of the state’s application for Race to the Top money, it created a three-year plan to implement a teacher-evaluation system based on student “growth,” Dopf said. Because Nevada didn’t qualify for the federal funding, there’s no money to expand how the state tracks test scores.
“There is a strong will to make it happen,” Dopf said. “Right now, we can’t be specific on cost or an implementation time line.”
Research suggests that highly effective teachers are one of the most important factors in student development.
Many education reform advocates have closely watched states such as Tennessee and Florida, which use “value added” measures — using test scores to track student achievement. This, according to advocates, controls for things beyond a teacher’s control such as home life and socioeconomic factors. (This is the method used by the Los Angeles Times analysis.)
Using value-added measures is gaining traction nationally — bolstered by the Obama administration — toward using testing data to evaluate teachers. Education Secretary Arne Duncan, an Obama appointee, required it of states pursuing Race to the Top funding. Duncan agreed that the Los Angeles Times should make public the data it has on teachers.
The alliance between Democratic politicians and conservatives has seemingly isolated teachers, who have been traditional supporters of Democrats.
Patrick Gibbons, an education policy analyst with the libertarian Nevada Policy Research Institute, said having public data on test scores is “very, very important.”
“Most importantly, the data will show who’s an effective teacher, who’s an ineffective teacher,” he said. “We could use that to help ineffective teachers be better.”
But the Nevada State Education Association, which advocated for the law passed in 2005 to prevent test scores from being used in evaluations, said merely publishing test scores paints an incomplete picture of teacher performance.
“I don’t think that’s the way the data was ever intended to be used,” teachers union President Lynn Warne said. “It’s not designed to determine if a teacher’s effective. It’s an isolated piece of the picture. Without providing the context, it’s a misuse of information.”
She also said releasing the information publicly would be akin to making teacher evaluations public, which the union has opposed.
Warne supported the change in the state’s law in February. But said the union wanted a broader way to measure student growth than just a test score.
Gibbons said, “No one is recommending using ‘value added’ as the only metric.”
The Los Angeles Times series has sparked outrage from teachers. Their union in Los Angeles called for a boycott of the newspaper.
The president of the teachers union told the newspaper, “You’re leading people in a dangerous direction, making it seem like you can judge the quality of a teacher by … a test.”
Although the Nevada Education Department said it could not implement a database of test scores tied to teachers for three years, some said such information might be available now.
Gibbons, of NPRI, was skeptical of state claims that such an analysis is currently impossible. He estimated it might cost $500,000 to crunch the numbers.
“That would be money well spent,” he said. “Getting data on who’s effective, who’s not effective will improve quality. We can reward the best teachers and get rid of poor quality teachers who fail to perform year after year.”
Clark County School District officials were unavailable to comment Tuesday.
Senate Majority Leader Steven Horsford, D-Las Vegas, who has sparred with Nevada’s teachers union over reforms in the past, did not return calls.
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The data will not tell the whole story or even the most important aspect of the story. Socio-economic factors play a vastly greater role in predicting student performance on standardized tests than teacher competency.
Some of the best teachers are working at the worst schools with the most disadvantaged students.
Also, the single most influentual factor in predicting student achievement on standardized tests is how well they performed on LAST YEARS tests.
I guess the teachers can cross their fingers and hope previous teachers were up to par.
Or maybe as parents we can start taking responsibility for our children and stop blaming everyone else.
One factor hasn't been revieled and every classroom is effected by this. What is the ratio of american only speaking students to the spanish speaking only students?
On average is it fair to say that 50% of the teachers time is spent teaching the class in Spanish, and 50% of the teachers time is teaching the class in English. Each half gets 50% of the teachers time. No wonder our kids are dropping our, from boredom.
We have failed our children. For all this time we've thought the quality of our education has dropped when it has been the lack of teaching time due to extenuating cicumstances put forth by our government.
Our government is failing its citizens. Has been for quite a while now.
The student population is highly transient. Many students sit there all day and refuse to participate. I've called parents and I get the response 'I don't care' or 'there's nothing I can do about it, he's the same way at home'.
Can we make a database the ranks parenting skills also?
Of course. The more info one has, the better decision they can make. We evaluate products everyday before we buy them; why not education? In the last 50 years, the public school system has gone down the toilet. It is not the teachers fault, however, in my estimation. It's the screwballs who have taken the reins and have a political agenda. Kids know that "Heather has two mommies," but are functionally illiterate upon "graduating." Kids "feel-good" about themselves, but can't read, write, add, subtract, divide or multiply and as for spelling? Forget-about-it! Vouchers, charter schools and the freedom to choose are the only answer to freeing America's children from the grip of ideological administrators and teachers unions.
If teacher competency is to be evaluated by test scores allow teachers to control the classroom curriculum. The district sets the curriculum for the schools, and more recently demands teachers follow the format to the letter. Curriculum material purchasing is a very political decision worth thousands and thousands of dollars. If parents took the time to look over the materials they might ask the school district a few salient questions, such as, "why is my child taught this material at this developmental stage? It isn't appropriate.
If teachers are to be evaluated on how well student test scores turn out, why have teachers? Give kids a computer program designed to help them pass the test and tell them to stay home and study until they pass it.
When will this insanity end??
Evaluate teachers based off student's test scores and you will end up with classes of nothing more than flash cards. I was lucky in elementary and middle school to be in classes that actually engaged student knowledge rather than memory. They had projects that actually had us apply our knowledge rather than regurgitate it. I was fortunate to only be in a class with 20 students though, instead of 50.
I'd rather see the teacher evaluated in some way based off the student's and parent's perception than by just some standardized test. If the student doesn't feel they have been taught or actually enjoyed the class how can they be expected to learn? If the parent is constantly having the help the student at home then what is the teacher doing?
We have to end this system that treats students like products at the Del Monte cannery. We don't need to turn out students, like peas and beans, all uniform and alike. We need citizens that can think independently, creatively, apply knowledge and use it productively. Innovation in eduction by the teacher has been lost; teachers are stymied by lack luster administrators who cannot think outside the box. Teachers must follow curricula and district regulations but are no longer allowed to be creataive because the test is all important and the only thing to be concerned with. It is the test...the test...the test and only the test tht matters in the final analysis.
Teachers have no control over their own classroom, policies, procedures, discipline, grading, assignments etc. They must write detailed, mundane lesson plans that incorporate curricular and state benchmarks in great detail. They must even write scripted lesson plans outlining everything in advance that might be said, discussed or presented. Spontaneous and creative teaching has been lost. Follow the curriculum, go by the book, stay within the rules, be a robotic clerk not a creative, innovative, imaginative and motivating teacher. This is what the CCSD has become and will remain.
Until now, when has a teacher given your child less than 50% of their attention during the day?
Now the School District has to teach any child with any language no matter if the child is here illegally with illegal parents. We are funding our schools and have to pay more because we have to pay for the illegal kids to learn also.
Our children recieve 50% of the teachers' attention, and we have to pay 150% of the teachers salary and now the county says we have to pay more because the foreign speaking students cost more.
Why is our government making the citizen assimilate to the fact that our government is not going to fix this, we now have to live with this problem.
This North Ameican Union is wearing me out.
absolutely not. You can have the greatest teacher who ever lived but if half your class doesn't have basic grammar skills to know what you're talking about or 80% of the parents have zero participation in their kids education there's nothing any teacher can do.
I teach here and feel strongly about some things. I think IT'S OK to judge a teacher based on student growth. BUT-A CRT SCORE DOES NOT MEASURE GROWTH. Why? Let me give a little background. I PROMISE YOU that at least some principals feed certain favorite teachers "green" (on track) kids. Some classes will have 19 "green" kids, 1 "yellow" kid, and 1 "red" kid. Other classes (like mine-I was a first-year teacher in that grade level) got 10 "green", 6 "yellow", and 4 "red" kids. At the very beginning of the school year, twelve of my third-grade students out of 20 that took the Gates McGinnitte test (it measures grade-level reading ability)scored at 2.0 (beg. of 2nd grade)(4 of them) or a first-grade level (7 of them). Some veteran teachers get "the cream of the crop". I don't care if I'm judged on student growth, but use a test that measures growth (THAT'S DEFINITELY NOT THE CRT).
Illegals dominate the school system in Las Vegas and English is a second language. If you are going to test these anchor kids maybe a test down to the par of the schools in Mexico would be more accurate. DEPORT ALL ILLEGALS and ANCHOR BABIES.
As a former CCSD teacher I was never against the testing and evaluating of students and using that as part of my personal teacher performance evaluation. But, that was in the days of the CCSD where teachers had actual control over things that mattered in the classroom. Today's teachers have little control over classroom management such as specific rules and policies for attendance, tardiness, behavior, homework, grading, special project work, and testing. The expectations and standards a teacher has for students most often determines the quality and quantity of student work and performance. In years past administrators and parents respected the judgment and expectations of teachers and there was much more support for teachers and what how they directed a classroom and led students.
Teachers with strong discipline and high grading standards were respected and not attacked by administrators, parents and students. The tough and demanding teachers are the ones that are remembered by their former students today. Their expectations lead to high achievement and accomplishments even by the most reluctant learner.
Any merit pay system I have ever read or heard about has many flaws that can and may well lead to petty jealousies pitting teacher against teacher. This will lend itself to advancing the 'good ole boy' system into the teaching ranks and that will lead to a lowering of overall teacher morale. To base teacher evaluation strictly on student test achievement has the possibility of promoting test cheating among administrators and teachers. The CCSD has a known record of past cheating on standardized state achievement tests in which thousands of state test booklets were released to teachers in advance and eventually required a total change in the state exam.
Until the Professional Teacher Haters get up and start to comment, we have a very nice discussion of the subject here.
SDCharger in particular is quite succinct in evaluating the possible pitfalls of such a system.
If you replace the word TEACHER with PARENT in the article's headline, that's actually where you'd start, kids.
Yes, teachers ought to be evaluated and held accountable. NO, it should not be an evaluation based solely on how the students perform on TESTS.
Do you people have ANY IDEA how much of a teacher's day/week/month/school year is now taken
up by TESTING STUDENTS for someone ELSE'S edification???
How's about we let the teachers TEACH...
This incessant desire to TEST AND EVALUATE has put teachers in the untenable position of TEACHING FOR TESTS.
You know, we're not trying to find a system that works best for CHILDREN TO LEARN... we're trying to find a system that MAKES ADULTS LOOK GOOD.
Is that where we're at here???
Considering half the kids do not even speak english to read the test, i would say HELL NO!
At the college level, what the statistics say is that teachers whose students perform well on standardized tests at the end of one semester do not correlate to whose student do well years down the road.
A better measure of a teacher's performance is what happens to their students next year. Do your 4th grade students do well in the 5th grade? Do your 8th graders finish high school?
Before we decide what measure to use, we have to decide what the right outcome is to measure. Unfortunately, none of the people involved in this debate (teachers union, NPRI, legislators) actually understand the statistics they quote.
The other aside: why to do have so many weak teachers? Don't pay enough to attract the best and brightest.
Should teachers be judged by how well their students perform?
Yes...........duh.
Teachers (like the rest of us non-government employees) should be rewarded for results...not for effort.
The LA Times should be commended for publishing a "value added" analysis of teachers in the 3rd-5th grade. The study revealed that effective teachers are those who have good classroom management skills and enforce high expectations that their students can learn.
More surprisingly, the study revealed that teacher experience, education, and location had no relation to effectiveness. In fact, the article highlighted an extremely poor teacher who teaches teachers at UCLA and mentors others at her school. She is quoted as "surprised" by the results. Another highly effective teacher just down the hall stated that she stays to herself and didn't want to talk about her results so as to avoid attacks from other less effective teachers.
Also revealed by the study is that student SES and language skills and ethnicity have nothing to do with a teachers ability to "add value" to a students experience. In fact highly effective teachers were found at every school in the district in similar proportions.
We must begin to use tests that measure skills appropriate to grade level and subject. Teachers should not be judged on the baseline values of their students, but on how much their students have maintained or improved their skill sets during the year. This is what the LA Times did and what I think we ought to do in CCSD.
In support of "vsestini", I agree that CCSD has not been supportive of teachers with high standards and expectations. In a few days we teachers will be asked to reveal our strategies for giving fewer "D"s and "F"s so we can be evaluated on how well we met that goal later in the year (and not on how much our students learned). This year, teachers will receive salary increments for "professional development" education that has no demonstrated connection to student achievement according to the LA study.
No wonder education in Nevada isn't working for students.
If teachers are going to be judged based on students' performance then we need to look at some other professions. Dentists should be judged based on the number of people coming into their office with cavities. Based on the logic of this study, if a dentist is doing his job well, people will have less cavities. Judge doctors by the number of sick people in their area. There are so many varying circumstances when it comes to teaching students. Socioeconomic status is a big factor, as is parental involkvement & support and, perhaps moreso in this area than any other, a simplem grasp of the English language. I've taught students who do not speak English AT ALL. Obviously the fact that this child's parents (or parent)failed to prepare their child for school should be held against all of his or her teachers.
with 50% speaking spanish and 50% trying to speak english, everyone is a product of their environment. 90% of the teachers are there just to babysit the kids that show up with no desire to learn, so the teachers spend time with those who do. You can take the best teacher, sit them down - 1 on 1 with a student and if the student "doesn't have it" or even wants to learn, the teacher has failed. Is that the teacher's fault? Case in point: a good friend sends their 2 kids to an expensive private school. one of the kids could care less, is flunking out..is that the teachers fault?
Lets pay the rich Doctors the same way I'm yet to see some one life forever. they'll go broke.
Powerful teachers lobby ? Do they get the same treatment as lewis blankfein or diamond or bp ; even immigraton lawyers .
If the job isn't getting done don't you hire more people. Are Geitner , Summers and Salazar judged by performance? How about w was he judged by his performance? The aristocracy just wants boarding schools and the rest of us ignorant Fox devotees. Sorry english teachers if I'm some what imperfect.
@gbigs:
Teachers can and have been sued for malpractice.
As a math teacher, I am already held to a much higher standard than most other disciplines. Each day a child is absent is critical for their learning in mathematics. They miss one piece along the way, they get lost very quickly. It is common to have a student absent ten or more days a semester. As long as they have a note, there is nothing that can be done.
There is no longer any shame in failing school...at least, not like it used to be. Many kids have figured out that there is really no consequence either.
I have no problem with standards and holding teachers accountable, but with only a single test that is given four months (yes, four months) before the end of the year is unconscionable.
As far as publishing results in the paper: Is everyone who is so critical here, okay with components, to be decided upon by the public, of your job being published in the paper out of context?
Yes, teachers (like any other profession) should be judged and rewarded based upon performance. However, when the performance is hindered by systemic problems then it's not fair to attribute blame solely to them.
Approx 50% of today's public school students, from what I've read, are functionally illiterate when they graduate. Math and science are worse. Yet students in the USA are funded per-capita among the highest in the world. And most teachers are truly passionate about what they do.
So we have high funding (on a relative basis, compared to most other countries) and passionate teachers. Why does our public school system graduate students that can't read or write? Why do good, caring teachers quit their profession in anger and frustration every week? Answer and fix those issues before holding teachers accountable on their own.
@gbigs:
You haven't seen it so it doesn't exist?
It is not as prevalent as medical malpractice because the well is not as deep. If you sue a teacher, what are you going to get?
I have been threatened with it myself because I made students line up repeatedly (5 or 6) until they behaved themselves in line.
The simple fact is bad teachers cannot be fired. They just get sent to a different school.
The teachers union has sent this country's education system on a downhill slide for the last 30 years.
The results themselves are undeniable proof.
"Private schools produce results. Publics are a mess."
Why do you think that is? Do you believe that private schools have the best teachers?
gbigs, you and I do not disagree. I could not care less about the teacher's association. I am completely fine with vouchers. The only thing I would say in return is that schools, under a voucher system, would be able to refuse service to students who are chronic discipline problems, which, by the way, is what private schools do.
"Privates produce WITHOUT govt funding. Consider that."
Again, why do you think that is?
Frustrating to hear the teachers complain about the problems with the concept. Our state is the worst in the country in education. Do you really think the status quo is working? Of course, the majority of people in any profession aren't terribly ambitious. Performance based systems will identify those teachers and they should be given a chance to improve. If they continue to fail, they need to find a new line of work. And more importantly, the ones that show consistent improvements in test scores get monetary rewards. This shouldn't be based on raw scores, it's on year over year improvements, so get the "rich schools" argument out of your head, there are more opportunities to improve when kids' base scores are lower. I've seen the direct benefits many times in the private sector. And to the teachers that argue that teaching is different because of the things that are out of their control (home life, etc.)...don't you think there are factors outside of work that affect private sector workers? Stress at home, etc? And how would you propose we adjust the system to account for problems at home? Tracking who completes their homework, and the scores for the kids that don't complete their work is weighted lower than the others?
The point is that this is SO MUCH better than what we have now, and we can/should continually evaluation and make modifications to the system. Instead of unions blocking the concept all together, which is a complete joke, you should get on board and find ways to make it work. Instead of saying "no", suggest modifications. And when suggesting modifications, the goal should be the performance of the students, not making it easier on the teachers. Then you'd be taken seriously. We need to make drastic changes, and this is a step in the right direction.
Lets have doctors paid by mortality rate and bankers by unemployment rate or perhaps foreclosure rate. Truckdrivers by accident rate and Police by homicide rate or assault or robbery rate. Lets not start with the teachers, they take care of our most precious assets.
gbis:
I agree with you. Our system is failing and I see it first hand.
Attempting to hold teachers accountable by publishing test scores is, at best, a misguided attempt to improve teacher quality.
There are so many other things that could and should be done that would truly improve teacher quality.
Can't you see it's another naked attack on the middle class and has very little to do with teacher performance.
the most important thing we can do for our children is give them a good education. asking for anything less should be punishable by a slap on the face and a quick kick in the ass.
Jessie,
Public schools also refuse service to students with chronic discipline problems. It's called expulsion. Every year between 1.5 and 2 percent of all public school students are expelled and or sent to alternative schools for one last chance.
hookershaky, I don't know about you, but when I select a doctor, I look at their history. I ask around, and select the one that has what I see as the best record. Bankers by unemployment rate...not a good comparison...too indirect (despite what many "victims" of the recession want to believe). Loan underwriters by the % of bad loans is a good one, and believe it or not, that does happen. Truckdrivers and Police are both union, so I guess all unions can wait for the other ones to start, and nothing will progress. That's a great idea. If I'm hiring a trucker, I'm damn sure going to look at their driving record, and I'll fire them if they're responsible for a number of accidents.
Those are very weak arguments. Just because another group/industry does something different doesn't mean it's right. And believe it or not, the compensation in a large # of professions is based on performance.
Unions have not been powerful since the Republican lead Congress overode Trumans veto of the Taft-Hartley Act. The poor kids are not educated because you rich people don't want them educated.
"Can't you see it's another naked attack on the middle class and has very little to do with teacher performance."
hookershaky.....you obviously are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Teachers are responsible for the kids grades. It's obvious.
I don't know about here, but in other countries they have 'alternative schools' that handle the troubled kids, seems to work fine.
I moved here from LA, my kids breezed through the first year here because everything they learnt they already been through the year prior in Los Angeles County. Education system here is a year behind.
"The poor kids are not educated because you rich people don't want them educated."
Not even worth responding to.
post 1
i dont think teachers should be judged by how well students perform totally, but there needs to be some kind of accountability at the same time. its weird.
schools are provided for the sole purpose of education, regardless of some parents considering it free daycare, the sole purpose is to educate our kids.
at the same time, when kids fail is it because they are stupid or just plain lazy.
i personally have a rough time with my step kid as she has to be the laziest sack of kid i have ever met. she truly puts more effort and brain power into finding ways to beat me and cave in and write a note to excuse her from her homework. i personally wish she would get left back.
she can do A and B work, but her sheer laziness makes her do C and D work. when those few times come about she will do work that is legibile, and correct, and even sometimes outstanding but that happens too little of the time. as parents we do everything we can at home to make sure her homework is properly done and able to be read. but when we see her classwork returned to her for us to see, its crap. its failing work! how is it she can do it at home when pushed to do it but in class she fails the same worksheet???
PURE EFFIN LAZINESS! kids are lazy. and its not like we put her in front of the TV all day, we make her go to friends houses, invite friends over to play, ride bikes, scooter, whatever. she is out of the house most weekends, etc. its beyond me.
but should teachers be held responsibile for my step kid being lazy? not totally, when one teacher is in an over cramped classroom of 35 kids its hard to keep everyone energetic all day. the teacher should be able to motivate the kids, but the kid also has to be willing to learn.
The president of the teachers union told the newspaper, "You're leading people in a dangerous direction, making it seem like you can judge the quality of a teacher by " a test."
But it's OK to evaluate kids off of a standardized test? Great logic.
post 2
do i think that my stepkids teacher is a bad teacher? no way, i think her teacher is great and looks after her well. she has been noticing her trends and is able to work well with her to help improve her faults. regardless of that tho, i do not think her teacher should be held accountable for her failing as her failing is her own choice when she chooses to be lazy.
i think it should be reviewed as a per student thing. some kids are so worthless and lazy that they do no homework at all, are in 6th grade yet somehow pass basic math and graduate with all D's.
kids would be better educated if there were less single parents, less families working 2 or 3 jobs because corporate america refuses to pay people decent wages to survive, or maybe actually will her people with good experience instead of a moron. corporate america is a main reason why our education system is in the shambles currently. unemployed parents are discouraged and stressed out and not always mentally able to help educate our kids. its sad but true.
bank of america does not want our brilliant college educated kids working for them, they want morons overseas to tick us off when we call them with problems or some dummy that is willing to be brainwashed with corporate propoganda.
Patrick:
You are correct. Public schools do utilize expulsion, but not in the same manner that private schools do. And it is rarely used for chronic discipline problems, but more for very serious problems. Chronic discipline problem students are rarely expelled.
It is extremely difficult to expel a student. Even after an expulsion, parents have several appeal opportunities.
Jessie,
Inner city students randomly assigned to private schools using taxpayer funded scholarships not only outperform and out-graduate their counterparts who do not win the scholarships, but these students find themselves in safer environments and misbehave less.
You will find that expulsion isn't the only thing that keeps kids on good behavior. There are peer effects and teacher quality that greatly affect the behavior of individual students. Improving the quality of teachers in public school will go a long way in improving discipline.
I also suggest offering public school choice (open enrollment) and transportation dollars on the condition of good behavior in school.
Yeh expel those members of the great unwashed class you wouldn't want them competing with richie rich in getting into graduate,medical and law school
If teachers are to be judged then they should only be judged for students that they had in their care for the entire school year. The formula should not include students who come and go nor should it include students who come in mid year. In addition, attendance should be factored in since the kid who attends less school should not have the same weight in the data as someone who attended more often.
And if teacher data is to be made available - then the data the teachers provide ranking their administrators who run their school should be displayed alongside.
Read the book Freakanomics. Chicago area teachers erased students' scantron selections on standardized tests and filled in the correct multiple choice selections. Motivation? Merit pay based on student performance. Instead of working at the skill of teaching, they took the shortcut and cheated. The students' scores were high but did not learn and the teachers' compensation was greater without having to work too much. Except for employers looking for skilled workers, a win-win situation. Look it up.
Any story quoting Patrick R Gibbons as an expert is fundamentally flawed and should be considered unreliable.
Could it be that Los Angeles' teachers perform better than Las Vegas' because they have a more liberal politcal culture ?
As the teachers are UNION employees, there can be only one method of evaluation and that is the test. If you could evaluate using other factors such as race, gender, IQ, Mental acuity, ability to speak English, personal responsibility, and parent involvement then it would be fairer. But UNIONS being the kind of Organizations they are there is no hope of ever rewarding the best teachers for their hard work.
LookItUp, you're describing a potential problem with the execution, not a fundamental problem with the concept. The cheating teachers can be minimized by having someone else administer the test. This is another one of the arguments against the program, and I personally think it's very weak. Again, the status quo is clearly not working, and this cheating issue can be addressed by modifying the proposed implementation.
I apologize if you were raising the issue to identify a problem that needed to be addressed, but too many people raise these issues, throw their arms up, and claim the entire program is flawed.
and Vegas is the worst then ?
Keep the Ayn Rand devotees rather than the unions out of the classroon !
What working person is really "rewarded" for their work. The minimum wage was raised once in twenty years. People that get merit pay are usually right wing apple shiners.Most management types are Republican.All that Stars and cream of the crop crap is just a bone you throw down to we wage slaves.
"Inner city students randomly assigned to private schools using taxpayer funded scholarships not only outperform and out-graduate their counterparts who do not win the scholarships, but these students find themselves in safer environments and misbehave less."
Although I would agree that this could be the case, I have not seen this particular study. I really need more information, but here are my thoughts:
How many students were in the class prior to the "random assignment"? What was the ratio of private pay students to taxpayer funded scholarship students in each class?
If we switched out all of the private pay students with taxpayer funded students, do you believe that achievement will go up or down?
I could see how placing one taxpayer funded student in a class of private pay student would improve achievement. Peer pressure is a huge influence on behavior, good or bad. Tangentially, most private schools have very low class sizes.
It would be nice if you could provide the source. I am not calling you to task; I'm genuinely interested.
"You will find that expulsion isn't the only thing that keeps kids on good behavior. There are peer effects and teacher quality that greatly affect the behavior of individual students. Improving the quality of teachers in public school will go a long way in improving discipline."
You and I agree on peer interactions and behavior. I agree with you also on teacher quality and behavior.
"I also suggest offering public school choice (open enrollment) and transportation dollars on the condition of good behavior in school."
I agree here too.
My main concern is with whether publishing test score results as a supposed quality control for teachers is appropriate or the best way to increase teacher quality.
It's more honorable to be homeless than to be a doctor, lawyer or wall street banker. We homeless didn't get a piece of those TARP funds. Did you gbigs ?
I guess the rich get to go to summer school but the poor are expelled.
As an elementary teacher, I would mind a lot less being judged on my students' test scores if the CRTs were given at a reasonable time of the year. Last year, my school started to give these tests at the end of February. The CRTs cover all of the material for the entire school year, even though they have to be given 2/3 of the way through. If you want to judge me on teaching the curriculum for the entire year, please at least give me the entire year to teach it and test in May.
Jessie, regarding your last point, many people feel that test scores can help to identify the teachers that have found success. Teachers/districts are then responsible for using that data to identify common characteristics in the "successful" teachers and the methods in which they teach, and adjust their own styles/training accordingly. The monetary reward, and possibility if losing their job, are the motivational tools that gets the teachers interested in adjusting their styles and constantly finding ways to improve.
Is it "the best" way to increase teacher quality? There are always new ideas, so I don't know, but it's a hell of a lot better than what we have, and the system has been implemented in the past in a variety of industries.
Sarah, that's great feedback! I think that's the approach to take with the board when they propose this system. Find ways to make it a more accurate evaluation.
improveLV:
I understand the basics (depending on who is proposing the idea) of value added assessments, so that is not the issue. (If you are wondering)
The problem I have with this is that, in my experience in working with students from very, very, low socioeconomic areas, the achievement gap closes at a much slower rate than the achievement gap of student from high socioeconomic areas given the same teacher quality.
What about teachers that have 40 kids to a classroom as opposed to teachers that have 20 kids to a classroom? I've had both and can tell you, it affects my ability to teach effectively.
Jesse,
I can point you to a charter school in Arizona with a large ELL population that is posting some of the largest mathematics achievement gains in the state. 240 students. 1 math teacher.
In south Korea avg class size is around 50. Some teachers teach thousands of students (and make millions of dollars for it) The US has some of the best pupil to teacher ratios in the world yet we are far from the best in international tests.
Teacher quality matters far more than class size.
Most teachers are lazy and suffer from a god-complex. When they fail at teaching basic education, their entire classroom is suddenly mentally-ill and ADD or OCD labels are falsely assigned, while the real nut-job (the teacher) skips away merrily.
Jesse,
Avoid at any cost advice from Patrick R Gibbons. He is dangerous to America, Americans, and is the worst enemy to teachers in Las Vegas.
He has a link to everything, a solution to nothing.
Patrick,
Even though funded by taxpayer money, charter schools are run under different rules than regular public schools.
Be that as it may - -
Point away. I would love to know what school in Arizona where a teacher, who had 240 students and a large ELL population made huge achievement gains. Because am sure that this person was not constrained by the public school system.
You cannot compare Korean teachers to American teachers without comparing Korean students to American students. I would love to see the study that shows when Korean teachers with a record of high achievement in Korea (where they cane people for vandalizing property with graffiti, I might add) come to America and teach our inner city kids and have the same result.
I agree with you on many things, but to say that the Koreans have it all over us because their teachers are better is comparing apples to oranges.
If you want to have a conversation on the Korean education system vs the American education system we can, but I really cannot go along with you on this one.
My wife is a teacher and i don't know how she does it. The kids she teaches have behavioral problems that have not been addressed at home. Parents should spend time with their children and get involved with what they are learning. Quit trying to cut teachers pay every year and you may find some quality teachers. The teachers in Clark County care but if they are not given the correct tools to do their job properly then your kids education is in jeopardy.
The thought that teachers should be judged by the CRT tests is horrible. Our state is very transient. Many kids come in to school that have not been in one school long enough to learn or have more to worry about because of the reasons they move around. Some kids come to school to eat because they are homeless. There are parents that don't care about their kids education, so kids have more to worry about than CRT scores. Other parents care but have to work so much that they don't have the time to help their kids. NCLB law states that ALL kids will read at grade level by 2012-2013 no matter their IQ. If a child is in Special Education because of a reading disability there is no way that will happen. They are in special education for a reason. Why are they penalized for their disability (attendance diploma) or a teacher (bad teacher label)? The people coming up with these laws and ideas should take the CRT and see what they score and if they seriously belive that ALL children will be at grade level, I welcome them in my classroom anytime to show me how to do that. I have taught many middle children to read who could not, but at grade level? For some it just won't happen and that has to be ok.
ImproveLV, "have someone else administer the test"? Fundamental issue - who will police the police? If CCSD PAYS a non-teacher to administer tests, then CCSD payroll gets inflated, true? If merit bonuses are large enough to create an incentive to perform, wouldn't they be large enough to split/kickback to the non-teacher test administrator? A person with integrity and pride in their work will perform for the agreed upon wage. A person without integrity will cheat when the motive is greed. I've witnessed CCSD Administrators threaten parents to retain their kids using attendence as a subterfuge when their true motivation was low TESTING scores - not grades - TESTING. Search the internet and find the "Stand and Deliver" calculus teacher discuss how administrators told him if students tested too high the school would lose Federal funding. Look it up.
It should be borne in mind that public school teachers are public employees. If they do not wish to be evaluated based upon performance, then at the very least their performance reviews should be public record so we, the public, can determine if they should be kept on.
Performance reviews for all public employees should be public record. After all, we are the employer.
Proscutors and defense attorneys by conviction rates ? How would you Judge a judge by cases ?
Boftx: You are wrong on one point teachers are UNION employees not public employees! The public has no rights to teacher information!
How could you judge the performance of a professional right wing blogger ? How many times he makes an ad hominem attack on someone that doesn't agree with his or her agenda ?
The "public " in this case is wealthy older people without children.
For those of you who feel private schools are the solution all to our education problems I would like to relate a few facts. I taught in the CCSD for 30 years and in my last 10 I taught part time at the most prestigious and expensive private school in Southern Nevada. This school has been hyped up as one of the most prestigious, best of the best, advanced and excellent schools around. From periodic news releases announcing a student was the reining county and state chess champion and a few other minor achievements like that there really was nothing truly unique or outstanding about it.
Private schools do not have to admit students with discipline problems or those who are categorized in public schools as special needs students (i.e. Special Education) such as those with severe physical handicaps, emotional problems, behavioral problems, personality ticks, history of discipline problems, etc. Students who do not perform to standards of the school are quietly excluded from next year's student population upon recommendation of faculty or administrators; they are quietly and politely asked not to reapply and return. Attendance and tardiness are considered serious enough to exclude the student. Any student who does not perform to standard by failure to maintain grades is also eligible for exclusion. Class sizes are usually kept to about 20-25 students which allows for more personal student-teacher contact on a daily basis. All of these things are impossible to meet in any current CCSD school; public schools must by federal law accept students of all stripes regardless of language ability, academic aptitude, and serious problems in personality, behavior, psychological or otherwise. It is next to impossible to exclude or expel a student for any reason whatsoever without the threat of legal action by parents. No, private schools do not excel because they are so exceptionally excellent, they excel because they do not have to deal with the daily crappola of accommodation, political correctness, apologetics, ethnicity etc., etc. They excel because they don't have to deal with the same environment as public schools.
Teachers in the public school system *are* public employees. The idea of allowing public employees to have unions is idiotic, in my opinion. And if you read Nevada law, state employees are not allowed to have unions, but county and city employees are. The teachers who work for CCSD are county employees, therefore public employees, who just happen to be in a union.
The public should have full rights to know what their employees are doing. Look at what happened in Bell, CA.
Classrooms should have web cams mounted behind the teachers facing the students. The parents should have pass codes to tune in and monitor their children to make sure they are doing their class work and not causing problems for the teachers.
Jessie, I apologize, I didn't read your previous comments and didn't know your background, so I over-explained the idea. Sorry if that came across as condescending.
I think it's a good point, that there are too many variables to say that just the teacher is responsible for the test scores, and not the teaching environment. If you're a teacher, you should propose that the test results not only evaluate teachers, but their environment, and they should be reviewed and administrators held accountable if patterns are discovered. Does that sound reasonable?
Patrick, those specific examples are interesting, but I'd like to see how larger classes versus smaller classes perform overall (trying to keep some the major variables in mind). I think it's reasonable to assume that the classroom experience, and time for interaction, is different with 20 kids than it is with 50 kids.
Don't let the rich ogres cheat our poor children out of an education ! Ayn Rand devotees leave our kids alone !
How about we see what effect bringing back corporal punishment would have? I can remember more than a few teachers when I was in school that we feared more than others. There were few if any discipline problems in those classes. To this day I can remember what a swat from Mr. Aguilar's board of education felt like. And I only got it once.
My use of private schools for my children seems like a bargain when compared to the difficulties encountered by the CCSD. Yes, private schools have entrance qualifications, but the one my daughter attends has a program for Special Education students. Granted it is small, but it has grown a little each year, based on what the school can handle. For those who can make the financial sacrifice, it is well worth the peace of mind, and it keeps from burdening CCSD with a lot more children.
Lets put all the bad kids in jail and leave them there forever !!!!!!!!!!!
Lets just educate the children whose parents earn more than 300K/ year !!!!!!!!! Wealthy elderly people should determine what is a "productive life ". The rest should be relegated to work camps; those that don't keep up should be exterminated with Zyklon B.
Ya know what; I think gbigs needs to grow up.
Harsh, I know... but eventually, somebody's got to say it.
I bet he was a gggg-gas to teach...
Since many agree that factors outside of a teacher's control (lack of attendance, disinterested parents and students, other issues including drug abuse, alcoholism, poverty, homelessness, etc) should not be exempted from that teacher's performance rating, I offer the following analogy. Teacher starts the class and a student returns for the next few days with no supplies, no completed assignments, no preparation, etc. Teacher speaks with student and parents and tells them that if student does not participate in class, do homework, or study for tests, the student will have difficulty passing the class. After this conversation, student begins to skip class, maybe coming once or twice every 2 weeks. Teacher again speaks with student and parent to reiterate that if the student does not do his required work, student will not pass the class. Teacher also greatly stresses school attendance as a significant factor in academic success and urges parent to make attendance a priority in order for learning and success to occur. Teacher states that student will not pass the class, nor the "test" if student does not come to school. At the required "testing" time, student fails miserably because he/she has not followed the appropriate actions (including attending) that is required to be successful on the "test". That teacher has failed to provide an appropriate education for that student and should, henceforth, be known as an "ineffective teacher". Here is the analogy. Patient visits the doctor and is told he/she has "xyz" disease and will die unless prescribed treatment is followed. Patient doesn't really want to follow through with the treatment because it's time consuming, interferes with daily life, forgets to take meds, and it's just hard to get up everyday to go and do it. Doctor calls patient several times to tell him/her that this treatment is essential to curing this disease (and also free). Patient must follow the course of treatment in order to not die. Due to family issues, socioeconomic struggles, homelessness, addictions, etc., the patient does not return for treatment and patient dies shortly after. I want the name of this doctor to make sure I never go to him because he is clearly ineffective and incompetent. I look forward to reading comments denouncing this comparison
Very good analogy,rosalita,your obviously a very good writer and teacher ! thank you !
Absolutely horrible idea. Ridiculously stupid too. Kids in school districts that actually care would do better without a teacher at all, than kids in apathetic school districts that might have the best teacher on the planet!
Every time I see a teacher/union representative stonewall any form of change or see non-teachers point the finger at teachers it makes me cry a little and laugh a little. Mostly it makes me glad that people that don't do their research rarely get to write our laws. It poignantly underlines why voting for politicians that read and do research is so critical to our systems functioning.
You cannot teach a kid if they do not want to learn.Sitting in a classroom listening to a teacher all day is boring (Sorry Teachers).I think we need more trade schools.Half of the day is classroom the other half is,(learning a skill or trade).
At least they will get some type of education
instead of dropping out of school.
Its not all the Teachers fault it the school system with no imagination.
I'd trust a unionist over a union buster any day ! Those liberatarians are crazy Ayn Rand devotees and are out to destroy public education.
teaching kids subjects that really have no major merits to society as a whole is also part of the problem. wolf85023 is right, class is boring. i remember cutting classes daily to avoid sitting in an uncomfortable chair all day listening to crap i could care less about. i still somehow managed to pass with mostly B's. im sure if i was in class more and cared more i could have gotten more A's. some classes i did get A's because i went and was interested. maybe somehow intergrating a students basic interests should be investigated and creating 3 or 4 different learning curves. in a way, preppiing kids for college better at the same time.
for example, an english major is not likley to be fully interested in biology and may fail in certain sciences but excel in other ways.
some kids are more hands on, and could benefit in actually teaching something to others instead of being told how to do it.
considering there are so many possibilities not all kids will get what they are desiring, but by creating a few basic learning bases a kid that is poor in math wont be able to be penalized for it.
and why is english and math the 2 main tests of how smart someone is? someone that does poor in math does not mean they are an idiot. standardized testing is a joke. i know people that never got a highschool diploma (got a GED later on) that can run a business that they work in and a lousy piece of paper holds them back from getting a position that is higher up and better paid. sad, a piece of paper means more than the proven knowledge someone can exhibit in person day after day.
Teachers have it made! They work 9 months per year and have 3 months off...with pay! What a racket, and they keep asking for more, they always have. Vote NO for ANY increase in education! They have to budget like the rest of us instead of sitting in meetings talking about how to get more money. I've seen it all too often.
Besides loving , thinking is one of our most important attributes. Teachers help us to do it. It is a hard job. Lets support them and defend them against the scary bean counters. The powerful teacher lobby is a myth.
How much does it cost the state to knowingly keep illegal students in the classrooms and not get ICE envolved. The lady down at CCSD told me they know about the illegals enrolling their children into schools but they have been told they can't do anything about it.
Which one of her supervisers told her it is none of their business and has to stay out of the situation? Who is allowing the illegals to rape our schools monies? How many millions of dollars are funding the illegals children? Where is this action to be held accountable by our School District? Our city? Our County? Our State?
Who is responsible for this waste of money?
Our school district is wanting to charge the citizens more taxes because the foreign children are taking more money to teach, so we the people are to pay for this? This is insane!
The 14th ammendment says that the kids are equal to the progeny of the rich people that exploited their parents on the upside. The rich should pay for these children to be educated on the downside.
Sorry fre , I didn't really understand the points your making. I didn't mean to attack you. It must be a real jungle with intractable problems . Drugs and Gangs, God bless those poor kids. I guess I'm not helpful at all.
As a society, it may be wise to implement statewide standardized tests to gauge performance and insure basic standards are being met; provide reasonable vouchers so that parents & students have increased choices as to how & what they're being taught, and that allow schools & teachers who excel to be fairly compensated; change the requirements for teaching (do we really need any K-3 teachers with more than AA in early childhood ed, or 4-6 teachers with more than a BEd in education, or subject specific teachers with anything other than a degree in the subject they teach); and provide more social services support at schools, in an effort to compensate for the inevitable poor home environments some children face (don't penalize the child).
Another case of your teachers union being totally weak and ineffective to protect teachers from dissimilar treatment. When your society starts treating other professionals that deal with the public the same way maybe this will be an effective solution. I don't see anyone out there trying to curb your fire fighter's pay one iota or link it to how many fires they put out. Your state is an utter joke in a country that is starting to share the same fate. Wake up and smell the stench.
White and asian and india students will always score the best as a group. Black and mexican (limited english) students will not score as well. Just cultural and financial differances will produce lower scores. Kudos to the teachers who put all their passion into educating the less fortunate who will score lower in these so called test.
allaroundtown- Get a clue! Teachers pay barely puts a roof over their head.
With an average pay of over $50,000 a year according to the Nevada Department of Education? Give me a break...
The truth is, good teachers are underpaid, but our bad teachers shouldn't even be in the profession...
The comments on this blog post (which supports outing test scores) add to this discussion:
http://takingnote.learningmatters.tv/?p=...
We all see the results of the teachers efforts. The students at graduation. The majority cant complete a sentence. And you want to continue to give them raises for this?? "Those that can...do, Those that cant...teach."