Facebook
Fark
Digg
Reddit
Stumble
Chris Morris / Special to the Sun
By Anjeanette Damon (contact) 
Sunday, Aug. 15, 2010 | 2 a.m.
SO, YOU WANT A PERMIT?
Nevada is one of 37 “shall issue” states, meaning sheriffs are required to issue concealed weapon permits as long as the applicants meet the following requirements in the law:
• Be at least 21
• Demonstrate competence with each weapon included on the permit
• Have no outstanding warrants
• Be free of any felony or weapons-related convictions
• Be a legal resident of the United States
• Not have been declared incompetent or insane
• Not habitually use alcohol or a controlled substance to impair normal faculties
Where guns are banned:
Schools and universities, unless written permission is obtained, all federal buildings, courthouses, airports, private property where it’s posted that firearms are not allowed
Sig Rogich
Sun archives
- Candlelight vigil held in memory of man killed by Metro Police (8-11-2010)
- Coroner’s inquest into Costco shooting indefinitely postponed (7-27-2010)
- Planning for a situation like recent Costco shooting not easy for police (7-19-2010)
- Man killed by police in Costco shooting honored at memorial (7-17-2010)
- Metro IDs officers in fatal shooting at Summerlin Costco (7-12-2010)
- Officers fatally shoot armed man at Summerlin Costco (7-10-10)
- Nevadans are free to don their arms in the open (4-7-2010)
Mike Stern, a Vietnam veteran, says he carries a firearm because criminals might view him as an easy target. Wheelchair users he knows have been crime victims.
Assemblyman John Hambrick, R-Las Vegas, is a retired law enforcement officer who says permit holders must be sure to keep their weapons concealed in public.
Erik Scott rarely left home without a gun tucked in his waistband.
Concerned about his safety while on call at night to service the pacemakers he sold, Scott decided this year to join more than 34,000 Clark County residents who have obtained concealed weapon permits.
“There are a lot of us who are CCW carriers — first and foremost for safety,” Scott’s friend and co-worker Chris Castillo said last week. “He and I used to have long discussions about it. We take calls as pacemaker reps, and we’re out at all times of the night in all areas of Las Vegas.
“During times of recession, you have rising crime in areas you wouldn’t normally find crime.”
Scott was shot to death last month, but not by a criminal intending to harm him. A confrontation with police left him dead at the entrance to a Costco in the west valley. A store employee had spotted Scott’s concealed firearm and reported to police that he was acting erratically.
On that Saturday afternoon, as many as 900 people might have been shopping at the Summerlin Costco at any time. If that were the case, 17 other shoppers could have been carrying a gun inside the store when Scott was shot, based on the percentage of Clark County residents who have concealed weapon permits.
A Sun analysis of records recently made public by order of the Nevada Supreme Court shows people from many professions and backgrounds are authorized to carry concealed weapons in Clark County: Politicians, casino moguls and mothers. State lawmakers, doctors and retired police officers. Journalists, lawyers and business owners.
Most permit holders interviewed by the Sun said they applied for permits — as Scott did — in pursuit of a sense of safety. Most had not received a specific threat. But some feared violence from a disgruntled employee; others worried about what they perceived as an increase in home invasions.
Mike Stern, a paralyzed Vietnam veteran who uses a wheelchair, said criminals might think he is an easy victim, so he chooses to arm himself.
“We’ve had a lot of our people who have been attacked,” Stern said of other wheelchair users. “That’s why I did it.”
Some permit holders said the recession had them more worried about violence. Others described themselves as gun enthusiasts who had applied for the privilege of secretly carrying a weapon but rarely used it.
No one interviewed said they had drawn their concealed weapon.
“I never have,” said Sig Rogich, the high-profile political consultant who said among the reasons he got the permit is to remain safe when leaving the office late at night. “I hope it never gets that far.”
Permit holders differed on how and when they carried their weapons. Some said they hadn’t carried in years; others said they don’t leave home without it.
“I haven’t carried it yet in a public setting,” said a Las Vegas mother whose husband is a high-profile business executive. She asked to remain anonymous because she worried for her safety if the public learned she has a permit.
For each, the decision to obtain a permit was intensely personal. Many, like the Las Vegas mother, balked at the idea the public could learn of their permits despite the court’s ruling that it is a public record.
“You’re supposed to be able to carry it so that nobody knows you have it,” she said. “The law is written so you really have to conceal it from physical sight. The logical expectation would be that it would not be known you have a gun.”
The Sun obtained the names of all permit holders in the state’s most populous counties, Clark and Washoe, but elected not to publish the names unless the permit holders agreed to on-the-record interviews.
Indeed, debate has raged in many states as courts have weighed the public’s right to know who the government has granted permits to carry hidden weapons against individuals’ desire to keep it secret.
The recent Nevada Supreme Court decision, prompted by a 2007 Reno Gazette-Journal investigation into Gov. Jim Gibbons’ fraudulent application for a permit, has unleashed a backlash in Northern Nevada.
(A friend of Gibbons, who is a weapons instructor, signed the required form stating that the governor had demonstrated proficiency on each weapon for which he was issued a permit. In fact, Gibbons had only demonstrated he was proficient on seven of the nine pistols he was granted permits to conceal.)
Permit holders were notified by the Washoe County sheriff that their names had been released to a Sun reporter. A Reno conservative talk-show host spent no fewer than four hours on the air taking angry calls and e-mails from permit holders. The National Rifle Association responded, promising a push to make the names of permit holders confidential during the 2011 Legislature.
“Absolutely I would support that,” said Krys Bart, executive director of the Washoe County Airport Authority, who has had a permit for a year. “I felt that my rights were violated” when the court released the names of concealed weapon permit holders.
Relative ease of obtaining a permit
Nevada is one of 37 “shall issue” states, meaning if you want to carry a hidden weapon, the state will allow it unless you don’t qualify for several possible reasons. As a result, it’s relatively easy to get a concealed weapon permit.
Pass a safety course. Prove you can shoot. Don’t be a felon, have been admitted to a mental health hospital in the past five years or addicted to drugs or alcohol in the same time frame, and the sheriff must issue you one.
By contrast, some states prohibit carrying concealed weapons altogether. Others, such as California, allow local officials wide discretion in issuing permits. That has led to a lopsided number of permits from state to state.
For example, in Los Angeles County, which has four times the population of Clark County, 1,237 people had permits in 2007, the most recent statistics available.
Yet despite the ease of obtaining permits in Nevada, and its Western, pro-gun traditions, the per capita rate for concealed weapons in Clark and Washoe counties — 18 per 1,000 and 26 per 1,000, respectively — is close, if even a bit lower, than counties in other “shall issue” states.
In Salt Lake County, 40 people in 1,000 have a permit. In Miami-Dade County, 28 per 1,000 have a permit.
The most significant factor in the number of permits is the ease of obtaining one, according to John Lott, a researcher who wrote the controversial book “More Guns, Less Crime.” The higher the permit fee, required training hours and other restrictions, the fewer permits.
Pennsylvania has more than double the number of permits as Texas, despite being a much less populous state, according to Lott’s research. Pennsylvania doesn’t require training to obtain a permit.
Nevada is about average for the rigor of its requirements, Lott said. In Clark County, it costs $100.25 for a permit. An eight-hour safety class must be completed in which applicants are instructed on how to safely handle their weapons and state laws on where they can be carried and when they can be used.
The Silver State is unusual in requiring permit holders to demonstrate competence on each weapon on the permit, Lott said.
Requirements are key to the number of applicants, but crime rates and political trends also affect the number. Concern that Democrats will tighten gun laws prompted a spike in permits in 2008, Lott said. The unemployment rate and recession likely could play roles as well.
“My husband is a visible person,” the Las Vegas mother who wished to remain anonymous said. “Times are very difficult and that puts people under an enormous amount of stress. My husband is in a difficult job where he may not be able to make everyone happy.”
She also said she feared federal laws would be passed under the Democratic majority in Congress making it more difficult to carry a firearm.
Kitty Jung, a Washoe County commissioner, said she obtained her permit in 2008 because she wanted added protection when going to night meetings. She also said threats from citizens attending commission meetings made her uncomfortable.
“There was no one special event,” Jung said. “But certainly something that made me a lot more conscious of my safety were some of the citizen threats that the county commission, as a whole, had received. It’s sort of in conjunction with becoming a public official.”
Last year, a man who regularly went to commission meetings to angrily denounce its work was arrested on charges of stalking and harassing a county commissioner.
Erik Scott’s encounter with police
Permit holders interviewed by the Sun said they take great care to keep their weapons concealed from view.
Scott’s case is unusual — permit holders in Nevada are rarely engaged by police.
Although the facts are still being sorted out, this much is clear: An employee saw his weapon, believed he was acting erratically in the store and called police.
Details after that are less clear. As customers evacuated the store, Scott encountered officers at its entrance. Officers shouted orders — perhaps to drop his weapon, perhaps to get on the ground.
Some witnesses say Scott put his hand on his gun. Others say he pointed it at officers.
The encounter ended with three officers firing at Scott from close range.
Scott’s family and friends claim he never pointed his gun at officers. They are eager to see surveillance video of the incident. Metro Police continue to investigate the shooting, and a coroner’s inquest has been indefinitely postponed.
Permit holders interviewed by the Sun admitted that they worry a misunderstanding could arise if someone spotted their weapon in public. They said they are taught “concealed means concealed” and are assiduous about keeping their guns out of sight.
“Any person who says they never have that concern (about a weapon being spotted) should not have a permit,” said Assemblyman John Hambrick, R-Las Vegas, a retired a law enforcement officer who has had a concealed weapon permit since he moved to Nevada. “You should always be aware of your surroundings and be concerned a misunderstanding could occur.”
Although he doesn’t know for certain, Castillo said he thinks Scott was wearing a pair of designer jeans with a low-cut waist, which allowed his weapon to be glimpsed.
Castillo said he had warned Scott that his gun could be seen when he wore the pants. Scott’s girlfriend told Castillo he was opening a box of canteens when the gun was spotted.
“My suspicion is he was probably wearing those jeans and the handle portion of the gun was visible,” Castillo said. “What goes through my mind is he bent over to check if the canteens fit in his bag, the employee saw the handle and then it just spirals downward from there.”
In permit safety classes, instructors go over how permit holders should behave if confronted by police.
During a traffic stop, an officer has usually run the motorist’s name and likely knows the person has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. But if a situation escalates — for example, if someone reports a permit holder as a gunman — experts advise following the police officer’s instructions to the letter.
“You do what the police tell you to do,” Washoe County District Attorney Dick Gammick said. “If they tell you to drop it, drop it. If they tell you to get on your face, get on your face. Now is not the time to have a philosophical discussion about your rights.”
You shouldn't need a permit to carry a weapon. Everyone should have the right unless it is revoked for conviction of a felony or declaration of mental illness.
What's the big deal about carrying a gun?
Come on guys, we all know the phrase: no gun - no fun.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showth...
Recently I got me a new bazooka at my new martial arts center locked away for only me given access to it.
So far, I have only taken it out twice, but wasn't urged to use it. You know, just in case, the situation had gone out of control. We all know, how crazy people can get, when the debt collector rings twice...
I never leave home without my slingshot...
GET YOUR PERMIT NOW BEFORE THEY CHANGE THE LAW AND DO NOT OFFER YOU THIS RIGHT!!!!! Or as many of our elected officials call it, a privilege.
Nevada is an open carry state, in other words, if you have your "Blue Card", you are able to carry your weapon so long it is visible and NOT concealed, you can also carry your weapon in your car in a concealed manner as it is considered an extension of your home. This is what a police officer told me, so dont take my word for it, call the police station and they will tell you what the law is. I wouldnt be surprised if Carson City changed the law in the middle of the night and no one told us.
Does that whether people have a drivers license is confidential information, too?
=====
'"You do what the police tell you to do," Washoe County District Attorney Dick Gammick said. "If they tell you to drop it, drop it. If they tell you to get on your face, get on your face. Now is not the time to have a philosophical discussion about your rights.""
+++++
And when the police give you several conflicting commands, you simultaneously comply with all of those conflicting commands.
-----
Beware GESTAPO 9-1-1.
LOL uddeboda! Allow me to add some sanity to this discussion. Guns are designed to kill. Carrying a gun in a Costco is stupid. As circumstances like these arise more and more, businesses will simply start putting up "NO GUNS" signs outside their doors, as is their right, negating the will of all you CCW cheerleaders. Unless you're a law enforcement officer, keep your guns at home.
So if statisticaly there were 17 other people in the store with a concealed handgun...funny how none of them got the police called on them.
My two favorite gun quotes;
(Its better to be caught carrying a gun than to be caught w/o one) Newark Gang Member.
(Guns get you into more trouble than they get you out of) Retired Newark PO
You can carry a weapon because you are free to. Welcome to America.
This Person lost his right to carry concealed when he flashed his weapon. This incident shows that a lack of common sense can and will get you killed. Training is given in these classes that tell you to comply immediately with police instructions in any potential confrontation.
I have carried concealed and open for the last 45 years without incident and have interfaced with various law enforcement people including NLVPD, LVPD, and Clark County Sheriff's department, NV Highway Patrol, Dallas, TX PD and many others without any problems at all. I hold permits from seven different states so I have to believe that this person had to be acting without regard to common sense.
As of Jul 30, the new Arizona gun law went into effect. Anyone 21 years of age or older can carry a concealed weapon. No permit is required. No background check is required. No certification of training is required.
I find it interesting that Washoe County had a fit because Jim Gibbons ws proficient with seven of the nine guns for which he got permits. If you are proficient with seven guns, the other two are probably a given. However, on the side of the law, you are supposed to show proficiency with the licensed weapon--why on earth didn't Gibbons just take the time (maybe an hour or so) to do that? To Uddeboda: what an idiot! I don't have a penis. I am getting a permit, not because I intend to carry all the time, but because sometimes I think I should. I thought nez212's comment was interesting, too. Did Scott merely accidentally show his weapon and since when does that nullify your license? The clerk was a real idiot and some of the blame for Scott's demise should be on his conscience. The whole thing seems to be cloaked in controversy--very sad.
"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
I'll continue to carry concealed.
women should carry at all times. period.
One of many small issues that was forgotten. There is a sign that says NO GUNS outside of the costo. Maybe the permit holders should take a class on following directions. I am a permit holder and have delt the police on numerous times and never had a problem. They actually supported the idea of the permit. There will always be people who have an issue with the police, the govt., and everything else in this world. They are so angry and are quick to judge yet happily ride on the coatails of the very people around them protecting and providing for them. Instead of looking at the big picture and making a positive contribution of human behavior they ignore reality. (see the majority of posts from the Sun for examples)
Cambridge:Good point, I hadn't noticed the sign the last time I was there but it's been several years. Again common sense!
At the risk of being shot at dawn ... might I suggest that the fact all these (you) people are carrying guns is exactly what is INCREASING the risk for the rest of us who don't subscribe to the Wild West version of a civilized society? What if (just WHAT IF), no one carried a gun, ever, except for police officers, now wouldn't that be the only thing that would really make us all safer? Very Canadian of me I know!
Someone needs to read Arizona law on Gun permits, I carry conceal in 27 states and know the Laws: AZ. Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon
The Department of Public Safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a resident of the state at least 21 years old, a U.S. citizen, who satisfactorily completes an approved firearms safety program, submits fingerprints and a fee determined by the Department of Public Safety, and who does not fall into a class of person prohibited to possess a firearm, such as a convicted felon, adjudicated mental incompetent, or illegal alien.
The qualification checks shall be completed within 60 days of receipt of the application and the permit will be issued within 15 working days after completing the checks.
The permit is valid for not more than four years and is renewable every four years.
e laws where I can carry.
Personal Safety: Thats why i have a Concealed Carry Permit. Also it's not the public business to know who has a permit or not.
"Only law enforcement"
I m retired Army and i have a permit to carry in Nevada and Oklahoma.
Having a firearm is serious, and real common sense is needed if you decide to carry a concealed weapon for protection because using deadly force is VERY serious.
95% of my time i just carry a Swiss DS-201 jet protector(Kimber Pepper Blaster in the U.S.) for personal defense while out in public and i recommend it highly:
www.pepperblaster.com
I m tired of ignorants with firearms giving gun owners like me a bad name.
-Markey the sane gun owner
The media exploits public salaries and many other aspects of a persons life why not print who holds permits? I dont completely agree but if they can print what the fire guys cops and others make why not share it all. After all if you see some person makes $250K a year that may motivate a crook to go rob them, they go on the county website run the name then go to there house! Maybe if they saw that these same people had ccw permits they would think twice. Another thing to think about is the outrage over guns yet all the DUI's in the city. I'd like to see some daily reports yes daily on the crimes and arrests. Instaed of bashing the police Id like to see the daily productivity. I think it wouls help lend faith to the public as well as credibility to the police. I think alot of bashes may see just how much the police do and that the numbers of police shootings are very very small. Some of you may compare vegas by population and shootings but you cant. Vegas is a beast of its own, mix in the gangs, drugs, booze, and gaming with the economy and its a crazy place. After all the majority of these people moved here to the booming economy its now changed.
Guns are great, they just need to be handled in a responsible manner. ANd when you encounter police, just as in any country in world DO WHAT THEY SAY. That is common sense, you can cover the world and if you dont listen to the police bad things may happen. That does not equate to giving up your rights, its called obeying the laws that the public and govt has in effect. if you dont like it feel free to move.
Amen, Markey - thanks for that.
The sidebar above said:
"Where guns are banned:
...private property where it's posted that firearms are not allowed"
Why can no one get the law straight here?
Property owners may not "ban" you from carrying a gun on their property, but they may ban YOU if they spot the weapon. Just like card counting; it isn't illegal, but you can be trespassed for doing it.
You can be trespassed for almost ANYTHING or nothing at all if the private property owner feels like trespassing you.
If you read the various "No Weapons" placards and stickers on local businesses you will see the NRS printed on them is simply the no trespassing law. Schools, government buildings etc. list a different statute on their placards.
Pass a safety course. Prove you can shoot. Don't be a felon, have been admitted to a mental health hospital in the past five years or addicted to drugs or alcohol in the same time frame, and the sheriff must issue you one.
How did Gibbons pass that exam?
Another stupid post by "fosimmons"
CanCat said...
"What if (just WHAT IF), no one carried a gun, ever, except for police officers, now wouldn't that be the only thing that would really make us all safer? Very Canadian of me I know!"
Why don't you tell that to the criminal element who do not care if they are carrying a gun or not?
Who have gotten that gun illegally (because all honest citizens have to go through a background check in order to buy a gun) by stealing or black market means?
And while they are robbing you at gun-point, or car-jacking you at gun-point why don't you just tell them to put down their gun and wait for the police to come so that they (the criminal) can be arrested?
This aint the Wild West. This is Modern Reality!
"You do what the police tell you to do," Washoe County District Attorney Dick Gammick said. "If they tell you to drop it, drop it. If they tell you to get on your face, get on your face. Now is not the time to have a philosophical discussion about your rights."
This DA, and many of the posters here, remain clueless on the nature of this liberty. It's up to me whether I exercise my right to keep and bear arms, not government. No legitimate government has anything to fear from its citizens being armed, yet it's mainly government that is hard against this liberty.
Funny thing is to hold either public office or be a police officer each must first swear a promise to We the People they will support, defend, etc., both the state and federal Constitutions, whichever the office requires. Yet that great U.S. Supremes decision on the side of the citizens for the Second Amendment, Heller v. D.C., was hotly contested. The anti amicus briefs were filed mostly by government entities, including law enforcement.
It seems both Costco employee and police hysteria the root cause of the Scott tragedy, not that he was armed.
As Blackstone observed, individual citizens were entitled to exercise their "natural right of resistance and self-preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression." -- 1 W. BLACKSTONE, COMMENTARIES 144
"Property owners may not "ban" you from carrying a gun on their property..."
ThisOneGuy -- actually they can IF they're private property owners. The law gets murky when it comes to premises open to the public.
@CanCat
John Lennon wrote a song titled "Imagine". Your post reminds me of it. while I agree with your premise, it is just not possible.
Australia banned guns. They collected over 640,000 guns
After 12 months this was the result.
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%
In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly
@CanCat
It would be a better deterrance of crime if everyone was required to carry a handgun.
Carrying is more trouble than it's worth. Knowing which businesses allow it or not. Making sure it's completely concealed. Carrying cell phones, keys, wallets, beepers, etc. is more than enough to weigh you down without the added encumbrance of a gun....or in the Costco case, guns (2)
I still don't get the idea of how it will protect you when a thief pulls a gun on you and says "gimme your wallet"....by the time you lift up your shirt, grab the gun, point, aim and fire the other guy has already killed you. And for what?...some cash and a few credit cards that can be cancelled. I don't see the need to carry for other than professional reasons.
Chunky says:
Mr. & Mrs Chunky have CCWs and always carry their weapons unless it's not legal in that specific location such as a Post Office or government facility. The Chunks also train on a regular basis to keep their skills up.
Why? Because you never know when you might run into a lunatic prescription drug addict with a gun at Costco and don't have the option to escape or wait for the police to come; it's a last resort measure only.
Chunky is no fan of the cops / government and too bad Mr. Scott had to die. BUT HE was the one who initiated this chain of events, not Metro. Regardless of how the gun was discovered and reported when the cops yell "drop the gun" or whatever they say, you freeze and do exactly that with your hands in plain view and wide open!
Crime is no longer an "inner-city" / "bad neighborhood" issue, it's filtered out into the suburbs and Chunky has no intention to allow himself to be ANYONE's victim. If he can't avoid it, he'll fight as aggressively and ruthlessly as the criminals will!
That's what Chunky thinks!
Ok folks, I routinely carry.
I sometimes work in sketchy areas of the civilized world; that's when I carry.
I don't carry in Costco, WalMart, Smith's or PT's.
If you are so paranoid you have to carry EVERYWHERE you go...... maybe you should remain locked in your "safe room" and not out in general population.
KillerB, I understand what you're saying, but when the police arrive it is better to prone out and let them sort it out. It is better to have the chance to explain yourself than be judged by an officer under stress.
I was involved in a shots fired incident and I drew my gun in self defense. Metro arrived while I was at my truck with my gun drawn, they ordered me to put my gun down, step away from the weapon and prone out. I complied and am still a happy member of society and still able to carry a gun.
btw, they checked my carry permit and gave my gun back to me on the spot.
To the family of Erik Scott, I received a robo-call last night questioning metro and DA Rogers... keep poisoning the pool and Erik will have died in vain. Your actions are just as misguided as the rush to judgement you accuse the officers of.
@ TomD1228,
It may be for you but carrying is not more trouble than its worth for everyone. Wallet and keys are in my pocket, cell phone on my belt.. and I stopped carrying a beeper 20 years ago lol..
Not sure why anyone would carry 2 guns concealed.
The 'stick em up & gimme your wallet' scenerio isnt all that common. There are many other situations where you would have plenty of time/opportunity to draw down on someone if needed. Not to mention there have been times when places/areas just didnt feel right so I was extra cautious, just in case. My point is that all situations are different and yes, sometimes you wouldn't have the chance to draw your gun, but often times you will to protect yourself. Truth is, if you arent carrying at all, you life is totally in someone elses hands.
Another thought that is not raised is how accurate a permit holder is when shooting at a person. There is a big difference between paper and the stress of a shootout. I shoot all the time and I know this for a fact. Police shoot at least 4 - 6 times a years at the range and draw their weapons thousands of times. Even a skill such as drawing your gun needs to be practiced thousands and thousands of time to be efficient. people say "why the cops shoot so many times" Well the fact is that under stress even a trained professionals accuracy is reduced 2/3 under life or death shootout or assualt. So one bullet may hit for every three. Secondly if a person has the will to survive they can live minutes with multiple gunshot wounds. Think about this, if a man shot "dead" the heart lives (more or less) for 15 seconds before dropping how many people can they kill with their gun and a 15 round magazine.....the answer is too many. Police dont shoot to wound and if they did it would not stop some criminals. Forget the TV shows. I dont care how many times the cops shoot, as long as the bad guy does not come back. Id like to see some stats on innocent people wounded by the cops while shooting a suspect, I have not heard of any.
You never know when you will need to protect yourself. I would rather be on the safe side and carry than think I will be safe and have no protection if needed. Even little old ladies need to protect themselves!
cambridge, excellent points.
"Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace." - Benito Juarez
Failing this respect, do we just surrender? There will always young strong offenders who of themselves or leagued under a warlord will abuse and oppress the rights of others.
Count on educating this class on the street with Harvard doctrines if you choose, as for me and my house we choose to defend and protect our rights and the rights of any victim we may encounter.
Please wear a sign to show your disapproval, I will gladly retreat from the scene of your victimization so as to continue to serve the sane. Bullets should be saved for people who love people who love people, and not wasted in futile defense of those the high minded that dwell in a mystical alternate reality.
If you publish the names of those who choose conceal and carry then aren't you by default publishing the identity of all who don't? Interview them. Ask them if they appreciate being exposed this way. The sheriff who provided you with that information is delinquent in his oath to protect. I say lawsuit. Publish his/her name while your at it, include your address and times when you might be found asleep and unprepared.
After all, it's the public's 'right to know' that you arm yourself with. Are you sure you want to live by this sword?
Tell us, you iconic publisher of all things private, where you tuck away your pepper spray. Tell us your travel habits, where you usually park.
Isn't it worth it, in your endless pursuit of your Pulitzer? Put your blood on the line here, get some skin in the game.
What? You object? Then you had best convince the rest of us that you need and appreciate the efforts and the time and the preparation of those of us who will as citizens soil our hands in your defense.
To the comments about carrying is stupid and is not needed. I ask you this?
When Zane Floyd shot up the Albertson's in 1999 do you think the innocent shoppers being chased down the aisle wished they had a way to defend themselves that morning?
I bought my first firearm a week later and have been carrying ever since. I know the chances of me ever needing it are probably in the 1 percentile. But knowing that my Family and myself have a chance to defend ourselves gives me a lil feeling of security. And yes I carry at Costco there are still Zane Floyd's out there ready to snap at any moment and I dont want to be in a position where I wish I had a way to protect myself. And I am hoping that some other people are carrying to provide some back up.
"Carrying is more trouble than it's worth. I don't see the need to carry for other than professional reasons."
There it is..
The thrill or "ego rush" of a pistol strapped to your body(with 1-2 extra magazines) gets old faster than you think.
Keeping a firearm secure(as my fellow military and police veterans will surely remember)gets to be a real pain, and that is why i only carry for professional reasons AND carry a Pepper Blaster concealed the rest of the time so i can still feel secure without having to worry about my firearm being secured.
And once again:
www.pepperblaster.com
An alternative i recommend highly.
I always carry as well. Contrary to the hardcore leftists on board here, Its not because I want to feel like a "big man" or because I have issues with my private parts.. lol
It just makes sense. Las Vegas is a VERY dangerous place. It can go from a bright sunny day to a very violent attack in a matter of split seconds because of all the illegals and gang banger illegals in town. Carry always where legal, and screw what others think of you.
Every day you strap on your gun, Every time you carry in public, Every new permit issued, it ticks off a liberal (Who btw are trying to take over Clark County), So do your best to annoy the left and carry daily!
@tuffguy69...
An excellent point! I would also like to remind people of more recent events, such as the people who were shot down outside the restuarant in New York City, or the employees who were shot down at the Budweiser plant in Connecticut by an ex-employee.
No matter where you go... shopping, eating, work, etc. there might be someone who doesn't hold high regard for human life anymore, and your life might be on the line. I can't help but wonder if there was just one person in any of those circumstances who happened to have had a CCW weapon on them, that the situation might have ended differently, and maybe more innocent people might not have died. Just a thought...
All of you that say carrying a gun is stupid, or that we should not have that right, or that they should post our names I say this. I'm an American citizen and if I so choose I will carry a gun under the laws requirements without having o answer to you or anyone else. For the Canadian go back to Canada and feel safe with the riots in Toronto. For those that wouldn't in stores then don't. Thats your decision. Don't for a minute try to make mine.
getalife -- all good points. But in Scott's case it seems not good enough.
"Another thought that is not raised is how accurate a permit holder is when shooting at a person."
cambridge -- right, that's why at that federal courthouse shooting early this year those trained and practiced officers fired 80+ rounds at him with only what, 3-4 hits? And all in busy downtown.
When you need to be armed and using it is not the time to either or call the cops, or have an academic discussion like this. You have a few seconds to defend yourself or be a victim. Been there, done that, it's why I keep weapons within reach at home.
"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams, 1776 "Thoughts on Government"
I have a CCW, after 10 years of Vegas I think they should be mandatory. Nevada is an open carry state as well. That means anyone with a registered gun can wear it holstered on the outside. When I see someone wearing an open gun I assume this person may be an cop, a bounty hunter or someone else with the authority to arrest. Criminals don't open carry weapons. The more citizens carrying a gun the more police cars visible the more it makes criminals worry and isn't that a good thing. My CCW has saved me twice once from an attempted robbery and once from some drunken punks who wanted to drag me from my car and beat me down on Sahara Ave. If you think a peace officer is going to swoop down and put his body between you and a Criminal sadly you are dilusional, the cops will assist putting you in a body bag and investigate the crime and if the criminal is real stupid there is a slim chance they may catch him. Our society has diminished to the point that it's Good Vs. Evil. And evil wants to harm you. It was astonishing to me how those criminals changed their attitude when I pointed a cocked gun 2 feet from their head.You see 99.9% of thugs are cowards and as long as they have you outnumbered or feel they have a weak target they feel empowered but when you put that weapon in their face they really have an attitude adjustment. Maybe if that happens enough they will be less apt to victimize the Good. If you don't have a CCW get one, learn and practice with it, train yourself you draw your weapon fast, replay scenerios of when you might have use it, that's what they teach Officers at the police academy. Get a smaller caliber weapon, one that won't shoot long distances and increase the threat of hurting an innocent. most protection shootings take place between 2 and 12 feet, you don't need a cannon for that. Use hollow point bullets! My $180 dollars it cost me to accquire a CCW was singlely the best investment I have ever made!! That's 36 dollars a year for a life saving body guard. Sadly in Vegas it's not if I'll be a victim of crime it's when are you going to be a victim of crime. Good Luck and take care.
The more I use my gun the better I feel about it. The first kill is always the toughest but now it's like using a fly swatter.
Robert2,
What is the source for your assertions:
"Australia banned guns. They collected over 640,000 guns
After 12 months this was the result.
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%
Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%
In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed dramatically in the past 12 months)
There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly"
Meanwhile reality shows this:
http://msl.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/f...
"McPhedran and Baker have repeatedly sought to repudiate these outcomes1,6 using methods that have been heavily criticized.5,7 The reforms were strongly supported by citizens and constantly framed by Australia's then Prime Minister, John Howard, as a way of preventing Australia from travelling 'down the American road' of gun deaths and violence. The USA has 14 times Australia's population,8,9 146 times its firearm suicide deaths (16,883 versus 116 in 2006),10,11 and 474 times Australia's firearm homicide rate (12,791 in 2006 versus 27 in 2006/7).10,12 While news of the latest gun massacre in the United States remains depressingly common, Australians today enjoy a much safer community."
Reality trumps NRA propaganda all the time.
Again, every time you walk out your door with a gun you have the hassle of having to know if the place you are going to allows guns.
Las Vegas is not a VERY dangerous place. That is ridiculous. Yeah, that Costco next to Red Rock is teeming with gangs, drug addicts and thiefs...gimme a break.
If you are that worried about society and crime, my suggestion would be to move to out of the way, desolate towns far away from Las Vegas. The day Vegas becomes so crime infested that I need to walk around with a glock is the day I move out. It's just common sense.
I agree 100% with concealed carry. I don't agree with open carry. All you do is draw attention to yourself. I've noticed some private store owners (pawn shop, liqour stores) open carry while behind the counter. Well if I were a violent criminal I would notice that and just shoot first then take the money instead of trying to do a typical "hold-up" type situation. The element of surprise is your worst enemy. If you open carry and someone wants that gun they see, it would be very easy for them to take it. I once saw a guy loading groceries into his trunk and he had a small revolver in a holster on his belt. I could of easily gone up behind him and taken it. But if he was concealing it would of just been another old man loading groceries.
VegasExile, my favorite carry weapon isn't my 38 airweight, it's my 22mag derringer that's concealed in a wallet.
It's very light and invisible to ALL.
Another two-cents worth, I don't carry my 1911, I find it hard to justify "personal protection" when I am carrying a cannon.
Just saying.
Brian, generally speaking, the guys at gun stores are strapped because they have daddy issues and have wanna-be attitudes.
Also, does anyone know the laws of concealing a weapon in your vehicle? I believe I heard Las Vegas and Henderson allow this without a permit but NLV has a law against it.
Brian, that is why I generally don't carry all the time. NLV can be problematic and I generally never know where my day will take me.
I don't see how the list of qualifications to carry CCW is such and infringment on my rights. It's common sense stuff. Everyone just likes to whine and probably couldn't hit the side of a barn if their life depended on it! Loooosers!!
Intresting to read that robo calls are going out regarding this matter. Who is paying for it and why? Anyone know anything about this?
The Second Amendment will get stronger with every challenge to it. The intent is clear except to those who are not knowledgeable of the history of the time or have not read any of the supporting papers, opinions or decisions of the time. In fact, there was relatively no debate on the issue then, the right to self defense like all our rights codified in the Bill of Rights was and is not a right that can be granted or taken away by man. The Bill of Rights formalizes the 'Natural Rights of man', expressly and specifically making that point. Like the right to free speech, religion, etc., the 2nd is a natural right that cannot be taken away by man.
The only question is and has been the right of the separate states to place various limitations on it within their own borders. Such as the right to concealed carry.
There would be an armed insurrection before any permanent restriction against private ownership of arms, any reasonable arm, could be enforced. Arms means not only firearms but other means of self protection and means to enforce and maintain personal freedom. The whole point was to prevent any government from abusing it's citizens as did the crowns of Europe and those dating back to Roman times and before which provided the incentive for it.
When concealed carry first started to grow in the early 90s the local manager of a local big box store in another state posted signs against concealed carry. A dozen or so patrons requested a meeting with the store manager and expressed to him that at any one time probably 40% of the male patrons in the store were armed and if the signs didn't come down, they would take their business elsewhere. This big box stores sporting goods department was and is the second largest on the eastern seaboard from Florida to Maine. These guys represented families which probably averaged a minimum of $400 a month each in sales between the all the departments at this superstore.
The signs promptly came down and to this day (since 92) no negative incident has ever occurred. Store patrons have assisted police a couple of times in hunting down and apprehending criminals though. One a pervert who was flashing little girls, they chased him into the nearby woods and held him for police and in another incident they did the same with an armed bank robber seeking to hide from police in the store and finally behind the building after they flushed him out. All without firing a shot.
Any national prohibition against arms would result in making law breakers out of ordinary law abiding citizens. If those who know of or remember prohibition think that was tough, try taking our means to freedom away.
The Second Amendment, Americas Original Homeland Security.
Bet on it.
I wonder if Nevada has RESIPROSITY with Arizona on concealed carry because anyone can now carry concealed in Arizona. I assume that is if you don't have a felony etc.
I have a ccw and carry at all times. I also keep my weapon in a paddle holster, which I can easily remove when needed. If you carry a weapon in your waistband without a holster, do not do it, get yourself a good holster. Carrying a weapon in your waistband too easily mistakes you for being a gangbanger or other criminal who typically carry their weapons in this manner. It is also dangerous to yourself and others around you since the weapon can be too easily fired accidentally. A good holster prevents accidental firings.
Also, when confronted by two or more adrenaline hyped-up police officers shouting contradictory commands such as "drop to your knees," and, "move over to the wall," etc., all at the same time, just what is a person to do in order to not get shot by the cops? I am hearing of this happening too often in Clark County. Gillespie really needs to see that his officers are properly trained. Better yet, replace Gillespie.
Worker, I believe the Robo-call said it was paid for by the Friends of Erik Scott. At the end of the message it gave me the option of "pressing 1" for more updates or "pressing 2" to opt out.
I opted out. Cases like this should be tried in the proper setting not propaganda robo-calls.
We all have opinions, but persons representing either side should know the time and place to present those FACTS not opinions. It's like the sky banner in L.A. last week..... what's the point?
Strange that this article fails to mention that Nevada is also an "open carry" state, meaning that you can legally walk around with a gun fully visible without a permit.
Does anyone remember a guy by the name of Tim Farrell? He openly carried a weapon in New Hampshire. The police there approached him, politely questioned him and let him go on his way. The New Hampshire police department apparently trained their officers on how to deal with law abiding citizens that carry weapons.
Farrell then openly carried in Las Vegas. Metro rolled cruisers, motorcycle, officers drew their guns on him, handcuffed him and confiscated his weapon. They detained Farrell, ran a background check and basically treated him like dirt. The Metro officers had no knowledge of the law as it pertained the firearms possession and a citizens' review board later found the Metro was not trained on open carry issues.
Drug and device sales reps. are open targets on the streets of Vegas if the DON'T carry a weapon. Metro needs to train its' officers on how to deal with the law abiding citizens its' supposed to be protecting and serving.
FYI, here's the article on Farrell for a refresher-
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr...
to ionfield, I have a ccw and suggest in answer to your question of what to do with 2 hyped up cops yelling different things
1. if u have a gun in your hand DROP IT AT THE 1ST SITE OR SOUND OF THE COPS
2. simply raise both hands as straight and far up as possible and slowly go to your knees AND don't yell anything unless it is O.K., O.K.
"Good post on the Kimber!
I think that is an awesome alternative, unless some retard is shooting at you from a distance!"
True that..
Oh, once again:
www.pepperblaster.com
A great alternative to carrying a firearm that my "liberal" friends in Europe introduced me too..
:-)
To all active and retired Law Enforcement Officers with the power of arrest. Please read following:
On July 22, 2004, President Bush signed into law the "Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004", also known as HR-218. Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, this law allows full-time active duty and retired law enforcement officers who are carrying the identification required may carry concealed firearms across state lines. A requisite for retired law enforcement officers is that they must annually meet their State's standards for firearms training and qualification for active duty law enforcement officers to carry firearms.
The Nevada Legislature passed a bill into law that brings the State of Nevada in-line with the Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004. The new legislation gives the Nevada Sheriffs' and Chiefs' Association the authority to establish procedures for the firearms training and qualification of retired law enforcement officers who reside in the state of Nevada and who elect to carry concealed firearms under the provisions of HR-218. The Nevada Sheriffs' and Chiefs' Association adopted the following criteria for this purpose.
This procedure only applies to RETIRED law enforcement officers who reside in Clark County, Nevada. They do not apply to active duty law enforcement officers. Under the provisions of HR-218 active duty officers only require photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which they are currently employed as a law enforcement officer to lawfully carry firearms concealed within the State of Nevada and across state lines. Whereas, retired law enforcement officers require both the firearms certification and photographic identification issued by the governmental agency from which they retired.
It is important to note that this process does not provide the retired law enforcement officer with a concealed firearms permit. The ability for retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed firearms across state lines is granted by federal law provided the retired law enforcement officer has met the provisions of HR-218. The ability for retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed firearms within the State of Nevada is granted by state and federal law. The only responsibilities given to Nevada law enforcement agencies are to facilitate the firearms certification and to conduct the criminal background check.
Retired Officers who reside outside of Clark County, Nevada are required to obtain their firearms certification from the jurisdiction in which they reside.
Westpoint grad with a Masters servicing pacemakers at night? He needed a weapon for that. Hmmm
Didn't he have 2 weapons in his possession...not 1.
Like I said, the day you feel you need to carry 2 handguns into a Summerlin Costco is the day you need to leave Las Vegas. Try Beatty, Jean, Indian Springs. Much more "quiet" out there.
It's a double edge sword in carrying a gun. With it comes great responsibility. If you are wearing jeans that exposes not one but two weapons....then IMO you have acted irresponsible and lost the right to carry. It is also your responsibility to know which businesses allow guns and which don't. If you can't be bothered, then again, you should not be carrying. Private businesses have rights just like you. You can't pick and choose which ones you like and which you don't like and act as you wish.
@vegasguy80
I recall reading something about the value of the medical devices Scott had in his car. I think the total value was well above $250,000. Perhaps he believed keeping some guns was a way to protect his property.
@TomD1228:
That's right, and that's why I take my bazooka with me, when I do that debt collector part-time job for the State of Nevada, for professional reasons, to show some common sense.
@digitalian:
'like using a fly swatter', ...that's why I use bazooka: more flies with one snip.
Whoever wrote this article commented that
"Some permit holders said the recession had them more worried about violence. Others described themselves as gun enthusiasts who had applied for the privilege of secretly carrying a weapon but rarely used it."
Key word there is privilege. Sorry, but carrying a firearm is a RIGHT, not a so called "privilege!" To put it in slightly different terms,
In the simplest of terms, the second amendment prohibits any law making it a crime to OWN a weapon or firearm or to have a weapon or firearm ON YOUR PERSON. Once a weapon or firearm is in your hand, it is now no longer considered to be on your person, you are now USING it. Nothing in the Constitution prohibits laws pertaining to the unlawful USE of a weapon or firearm. That is the difference. Gun control is against the second amendment. Gun USE control is 100% constitutional.
Very similar to those who insist on calling driving a "Privilege." It is a privilege only in the sense that the Constitution is silent about any right to drive. It is NOT a privilege in the sense that Government can take it away from you over unrelated incidents or that you give up your Constitutional rights when driving (why not pass a law prohibiting elected Government employees from having driver's licenses on the grounds that it is a privilege, not a right?). It is interesting that Governments who opposed the Supreme Court's decision in Heller vs the District of Columbia are quick to carve out exceptions for their own employees and ban civilians from owning or carrying. In the case of Chicago, Mayor Richard Daly is trying to pass ordinances prohibiting civilians from carrying guns even out to their garages, and so on. Why not pass a law making it a crime for anyone including police officers to carry a gun within 1000 feet of Mayor Richard Daly? Then he wouldn't have to worry about gun violence being commited against him. Just a law for him to consider, but what are the chances of him passing such a law? Just something to consider.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that the burden is on Scott for explaining why he should NOT have been killed.
Some examples-
1. Sure, Scott wasn't breaking any laws, but why would he need to carry a weapon at a Costco? or
2. What was a West Point grad doing selling pacemakers? (not mentioning that these types of reps can make multiple six figure incomes); or
3. Why did Scott try to follow the orders of the police officers instead of just putting his hands up?
It's surprising that some people blame the victim in rapes (ie., "she dressed like she wanted it"), getting robbed (ie, "they should have known better to be in that part of town after dark"), etc. It's even more worrisome when those that engage in the blaming the victim game also happen to carry badges and a guns.
When a life is taken, the burden in on the individual(s) that took the life to show that there was no alternative available other than killing the victim. Proper training would have prevented Erik Scott's death, just as it would have prevented how Metro treated Tim Farrell--and just as it would have more than likely prevented Metro from killing Trevon Cole when he didn't even have a weapon.
A great example of why you should never use your Sams Club Card to enter a Costco!
Joe blow citizen does not write down events, such as those observed at Costco. Police do. Have you ever seen five cops standing around talking, and one handcuffed guy sitting on the curd or in the back of the patrol car? They're "synchronizing the testilying." The handheld, that some cops have to write citations and reports, can transmit data to another cop's handheld unit via infrared, etc.
So as time goes by, the civilian witnesses forget details and their stories become more disjointed and disparate. In contrast, the cops stories become more similar in detail.
Was the guy wearing a wrist watch? What color were his undershorts? Was the guy right or left handed? How many witnesses to the Costco shooting went home and wrote details, times, descriptions down? developing a time line, etc.? In contrast the cops did that and are doing that.
So the longer the Costco situation drags out, the better for the cops, the worse for the other witnesses.
People carrying pacemakers are attacked often and the pacemakers are sold on the black market to be installed in ghetto people with bad hearts from smoking crack. (I saw it on CSI)
KillerB
A property owner cannot grant or take away Constitutional rights even on their own property, all they can do is demand that you leave.
So why does Gibbons need to walk round with nine guns? You'd think one would do.
@ThisOneGuy..
How much you want to bet I can take away the right to a fair trial if a criminal breaks into my home when my family and I are here?
"A property owner cannot grant or take away Constitutional rights even on their own property, all they can do is demand that you leave."
ThisOneGuy -- Constitutions only bind governments, not your fellow citizens. When you're on my property you can only be there by my consent, and on my terms, no matter what Constitutional rights you think you have -- my rights are superior to yours. Whole lotta law written and unwritten about that.
if you are a parent, you need to carry a gun. these mass shootings DO happen. people DO die at these things and why would anyone take the chance of leaving their children without a parent because some repeat criminal got a hug and cupcake from a liberal instead being thrown into jail where he belongs.
vote democrat = criminals walk our streets.
People are scared. That's why so many people carry guns and that why the police and people without guns are scared of the people with guns. How many people in just the last few years have walked into a crowed public area and started shooting? Lots! Some of those people had the guns illegally, but just as many if not more were perfectly legal until they started killing people. So what's the answer? Hell if I know, but what I do know is that if everyone had a gun we would be even less safe than we are now. The argument is that if everyone had a gun everyone would be too afraid of being shot to open fire. Yeah, right. Most of the killers lately have ended their shooting spree by shooting themselves. That doesn't sound like someone afraid to die. Add to that too many nervous people that would shoot someone just because MAYBE they were going to open fire (sounds familiar?).
I don't know what to do, but I don't think everyone having a gun is the answer. Me personally, I'd be happy if only the police and military had guns. In such a world, this incident wouldn't have happened.
Concealed means concealed as in not to brandish.
Yes if you have a permit to carry concealed then you are permitted to do just that.
If you carry openly then the merchants can ask you to not bring it into there establishment for the permit is to carry in public not on someone Else's private property this is my understanding and if I am incorrect then I will change the way I understand it.
to cwbattman; here is the story on Arizona law allowing anyone to carry concealed; I have cut-n-pasted 1st paragraph
PHOENIX -- Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/17...
Nevada is an open carry state. Only North Las Vegas and Boulder City restrict open carry. However, state law preempts both of those city laws to allow concealed carry in North Las Vegas and Boulder City.
That's right, you have a right to walk down the Las Vegas strip with a gun in a holster at your side (if you have a blue card for the gun) and not break any laws.
However, Metro tends to interpret law any way they choose.
I have never had a problem in Arizona, never. The cops know the laws.
The only actual power a land owner / private citizen has is the right to trespass someone off the property and preform a citizens arrest if they won't leave.
You cannot stop me from talking because I am on your land, and in Nevada you cannot prevent me from carrying a concealed weapon on your land either. You may only ask me to leave.
Sorry I cannot make the jump from carrying a concealed weapon and ending up dead as in Erik Scott's case. These comments such as "well if never would have been carrying he'd be alive" or "if he would have kept his weapon more concealed."
so essentially, the man deserved to die? you guys sure are giving a lot of credit to two rookie patrol officers and one 5 year officer who has already killed a man.
it is interesting that Erik told the employee he had a permit to carry and yet you never hear the officers metnion another thing about it before they confronted him. he was a threat to no one when he was walking out of Costco and yet many of you just NEED to believe that he brandished his weapon to make everything fit in to place.
Oh, and to say he should have done what the police said. how do you know he was not? witnesses say it happened so fast. some of you make it sound like it was a long and drawn out event.
Someone said prescription drug junkie? have you ever had a prescription for an oral antibiotic? how would you know what he had a prescription for?
Let me pose a couple of questions for those who have closed the case:
1) why has the Coroner's Inquest been postponed indefinitely? not typically of a cut and dry case.
2) why did the officers go straight to the security room right after the shooting? obtaining the computer hard drives with surveillance video maybe? is this standard procedure? is this in line with the gathering of evidence? if you just shot someone do you get to gather the evidence as well? this is all assuming the audio recording posted a few weeks ago is legitimate.
3) interesting how the hard drives are unreadable. this typically only occurs if they have been damaged. there are but a few ways hard drives are irrevocable damaged. if the police can'c be counted on to seize hard drives without damaging them, then they should not be touching them at all.
cont'd
cont'd
you see there are just too many problems with this case for me to close it as easily as many of you. why? becuase I just want to know the truth, and up to this point, there hasn't been much of an effort by Metro, in this case and others, that point in the direction of truth.
Remember, the Inquest has been suspended indefinitely. why? what re they doing? interviewing witnesses? but how can this be if the case was so clear cut? how long is indefinitly? and again, what is the explanation? a holiday weekend is the justification for an Inquest to be pushed out "indefinitly?"
Can you people not see the writing on the wall?
There is something wrong here.
and hey, to keep yourselves interested until the Inquest comes around, Youtube some great videos of open carry encounters out in California and see how a lot of calls are handled very peacefully. just becuase someone is carrying does not make the person a crazed gunman. and remember, Metro only had one call that alluded to this. Interesting how there were no other calls reported. Not even on the police audio recording.
Hey, did you ever think that just maybe the Costco manager and Erik just rubbed each other the wrong way? Then the events after resulted from a crazy Costco employee who himself might have needed to be on medications.
I guess we all choose to believe whatever we decide to believe. But as a tax paying citizen who pays the salary of these public servants, I have right to know the truth. and if you are not willing or and standing in the way of the truth. well then I have a problem with it and I am going to assume you have something to hide.
Again. It's not a difficult situation. Costco does not allow guns on their property. Employee sees Eriks gun and says you have to leave. There should be no "but I have a......"
All he needed to say was "sorry sir, I'm leaving now"
Apparently the right to argue seems to cause all the trouble. Here's a tip. Make sure you kow beforehand about a companies rules on carrying on their property. If you don't know and don't care to find out, then understand if you are asked to leave means no back talk, no arguing..offer a sorry and leave.
That's the proper thing to do...no?
Lots of inaccuracies posted here.
A person does NOT lose the right to CCW when said person "flashes" (allows firearm to be seen)- although that can be a dumb thing to do! There is no law requiring the firearm to remain concealed. It is my opinion your firearm SHOULD remain concealed - or simply Open Carry it.
Carrying your concealed firearm in Costco (or any other lawful place) is NOT stupid. "Stupid" is leaving your firearm at home! Others here have adequately described the "trespass" vs posted signage issue.
"Not the old/wild west"? Maybe we should return to those days. Contrary to popular belief and what the movie makers would have you believe, the old west was actually quite peaceable - the per capita crime rate (the only way to judge) was actually lower than it is today.
More guns, less crime. An armed society is a polite society.
To the Canadian that said we would be better off if no one had firearms: There never has been, and never will be, such a utopia. Bad guys do what bad guys do - and law abiding citizens have the right to defend themselves.
It seems no one knows for sure what happened in Mr Scott's case. I do hope we'll finally get some real details.
"Guns don't kill people! But they sure help."
--from the movie "Shoot'Em Up"
If the gun was concealed...right, there would be no problem. It wasn't concealed. Employee saw it and told customer guns are not allowed in Costco. Please leave.
Where is the problem?
I'm still against allowing the average citizen to carry a gun when the vast majority can't even use a turn signal correctly.
Who cares... A CCW is only good if you have to carry your weapon concealed... I carry and am not concerned about a permit... It is a right that I have as being a citizen of the U.S. and if someone knows you are holding then more than likely you wont be a target for anything..... I believe the Scott incident is a wash up by metro since they know they screwed up and are not ready to take the criticism and pay for their screw up knowing they are wrong... I think they know this and are preventing their own from being convicted of murder.. If not then why postpone the meeting that determines who was right or wrong.... I see cover up all over this and it has nothing to do with a fing permit....
@TomD1228: We don't know that the Costco employee that first spoke to Scott specifically asked him to leave the store. We do know that when Costco asked shoppers to exit the store, Scott peacefully exited the store. After all, if Scott "refused" to leave the store, how would he have been shot outside the store?
Another gun totter bites the dust...must have been worth it. He'll never know, will he ?
If you have a CCW to carry a concealed weapon then carry it concealed. It is your right to carry your weapon in the open, just be prepared to be asked to leave MANY businesses... Try going to a casino with a gun on your hip, you will be asked to leave with a quickness.
I seriously doubt Metro is trying to cover up the Scott shooting because you can't cover up something that wont go away.
I own 6 handguns, 2 rifles and 2 shotguns and I have never thought about carrying 2 guns concealed at the same time... many police officers ON-DUTY dont carry more then 1 (on there person).
If a police officer sees a gun in your waistband I gaurantee he is NOT going to tell you to "PUT THE GUN DOWN". The last thing they want is for someone reaching for a gun.
I liked Chucky's post.
In my case, Mrs. Newsy took the course but is too freaked to carry. Mr Newsy has to conceal from her.
The question becomes was the gun in his hand already and he was told to put it down or drop it....???
Or when the cops knew he had a weapon (concealed or not) did they tell him to put his hands up??
It does seem odd that the cops would yell for you to put the gun down when the only way you can do that is to reach for the gun on your waistband.
I think all the people who don't believe in guns or carrying concealed should place bumper stickers on their cars or signs in their yards or on their doors saying that they don't believe in owning guns. Please write in and tell the rest of us how that workes out.
Stupid is in the eye of the beholder. You may think it's stupid to carry a gun, someone else may not. You all can call names and argue as much as you want, you're not changing anyone's opinion.
All the Monday morning quarterbacks here have no idea what happened at Costco that morning and we won't know the whole story until the tapes and videos are out.
But, if you are ever surrounded by police whether you have a gun or not, just put your hands in the air and stand still. Your chances of being shot go way down if you do that.
It's so obvious! The answer to excessive gun violence is, of course, MORE guns. Because, when everyone had guns in the West in the 18th and 19th centuries, there was NO violence in these parts. Right? Wrong!
shot 7 times...3 in the back ?...no releasing of tapes, delays ? I do not think this is a right to bear arms issue. I think Eric Scott was slaughtered... and I hope to be proved wrong soon. I also hope this dosnt just go away, and would like to know about Cole shooting findings...all the rest is BS... if people want to get a gun... they will.
What about Officers Ubbens and Carpenter in the Carrillo case? Metro forwarded criminal charges to the DA on Aug 3. The DA said that the needed to review them. That was almost 2 weeks ago. How long does it take to look at the paperwork. Maybe if we wait, people will forget? Not likely!!!!
For all the people that believe they have a right to carry a firearm, just re-read the 2nd Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
That would indicates that any and all gun owners, as part of a militia, would be under the direct control of the Commander-in-Chief. Hmmm... Own a gun, go directly to Iraq?
Do you have any idea how many cases go before the DA for review every day... every person that is arrested on a gross mis or felony goes before the DA for review so keep your pants on and just wait.
I think some paper in LV should publish the names and addresses of all FIRST AMENDMENT PRACTITIONERS at the LVSun.
You are taking advantage of the Constitution and we should know who you are.
From the publisher to the porter (reporters are near the bottom). Also if the LVSun has armed security at their offices, we need their names and addresses also.
GET IT NOW, you gun grabbers at LVS?
The right to carry a concealed weapon, does not give you the right to be a cocky idiot. Obviously, it does not make you safer. Also, @ Sun... I got a message on my phone (sounded political), but it said, Eric Scott was shot in the back 5 times with hollow point bullets. Have you heard about these calls? The message was stating how we need to get our Sheriff out and not vote for him again. Also, that it was a coverup. Please respond SUN. THANKS.
Police officers dont like "common folks" to carry because they will probably be too late and not get to shoot first. We'll take care of the problem before they even leave the donut shop.
Don't give the cops such a bad name. I came home and had a bad guy hiding in my garage, and the police response was awesome. They handled it with total professionalism. There are bad eggs everywhere, especially on these comment boards. Ha
Fear may be the motivation for most folks to get a permit, but what about the folks with other motivation. Most people don't want to be told anything much less what to do. A weapon can always be used as threat or in a offensive way. I fear the ego maniac as much as the criminal type. Fear is an instinct that has a reason, but can lead to paranoia if taken too far. A small percentage of the people legally carrying concealed are mentally ill and will cause concerns for their fellow citizens and the police if thy go off the reservation. Should testing be used for permits like they are for driver licenses? Just a few thoughts.
Erik Scott was likely careless. Concealed means concealed. By far the majority of concealed weapons carriers, of which I am one here in Florida, understand that. Further if, by chance, your weapon is seen and cops are called, for God's sake, do what they say. There are still very few permit holders that end up like Scott.
That being said while I am in favor of everyone who qualifies carrying a gun, I am also in favor of strict background checks and more stringent training and qualifications. But the bottom line is a very minute per cenatge of permit holders commit a crime or get in a confrontation like Scott did with the cops. If you carry a weapon you have the obligation to always be sure its concealed. No excuses.
@isnrblog, Scott's problem appears to be that he actually attempted to listen to the police officers--it looks like the police gave contradictory commands, to include "Stop", "Get Down" and "Drop It" all at the same time.
There is a reason very few permit holders end up like Scott. It's because the average cop in states allowing concealed weapons or that have "open carry" laws as in Nevada are trained in how to assess a situation first-hand and deal with law abiding citizens that may be carrying weapons. Erik Scott could have legally walked out of that Costco into the parking lot with his weapon fully visible--although he didn't.
It was not Erik Scott's job to read the minds of the police officers that responded to the call, nor was it his responsibility to calm down the overly excited cops that never made a first-hand assessment of the situation.
Officers are trained to make a first-hand assessment upon arriving at the scene. Officers are trained to let the suspect's actions dictate their response. The basic training points weren't followed and as a result an innocent civilian was killed.
Here's something that just happened in New Mexico. State Police are investigating an officer invovlved shooting by a city police officer. What a novel idea!!!!!!!!
http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1699...
A couple of observations from an Ohio Concealed Carry Permit holder:
1) The thread indicates that there was a no weapons sign up front in the store. If this is the case, then nobody should have seen his weapon because he shouldn't have had it inside the building. I keep a special lockbox bolted inside my cars for just such occasions.
2) The article quotes someone talking about him wearing low-waist designer jeans which made his gun visible. Concealed means concealed. I choose my wardrobe carefully when I carry, sounds like he should have too.
3) The fact that the police were yelling drop it at him tells me that he either had his weapon out or was attempting to touch the weapon while dealing with the officers (a felony in Ohio). The correct response is to keep your hands in plain sight and then follow instructions. The one time that I've had to deal with police while carrying, the officers asked for my gun (which they can do here) and I told them that I wanted to comply, where the gun was located and asked that they remove the gun from the holster so that there was no potential for misunderstanding. One of the officers took my gun, we dealt with the situation, and my gun was returned to me when we were finished.
4) I've seen some posts suggesting how much better things would be if nobody carried guns. An interesting theory, but like many feel-good theories, it's just not realistic without going back in time and doing away with the invention of gunpowder. Better to deal with reality than to simply wish things were different.
A question for the folks who have posted about nobody carrying guns but the police: Do you keep a fire extinguisher at your house, and if so, why? I'm sure your town has a perfectly qualified fire department. I keep a fire extinguisher to deal with an emergency situation until the trained people can get there. I keep and carry a firearm for the same reason.
@chphoto1: I'd be very careful about drawing the conclusion that because officers were yelling at Scott to "Drop It", it meant that Scott had his weapon in his hand or was attempting to touch it.
By all accounts, the gun was concealed at the time officers approached Scott from behind as he exited the store. The only reason the officers knew Scott was carrying a gun was because the officers had been told by the 911 dispatcher who had been told by a phone caller that Scott had a gun on him.
We're dealing with two rookie cops and a third cop that had apparently been rejected from police departments in the northeast and had a previous shoot and kill under his belt. It is quite possible that one of the officer ordered Scott to "drop it' just because he knew from the dispatcher that Scott had a gun on him. Some eyewitnesses said that Scott was putting his hands up until the police started giving orders.
@SummerlinCC - Point taken. I have made an assumption there. Probably a better statement should have been "if he was touching or holding his gun" so that I don't assume fact not in evidence. If he did indeed have his hands raised, then the officers certainly have a problem.
A question to ponder: Do Metro cops sometimes issue contradictory commands to suspects, particularly in black neighborhoods, in order to confuse the suspect in the hopes that the suspect will act on one of the commands and give the cops an excuse to execute a person they find deplorable? And, is this a part of the unwritten Metro culture?
I gotta get a gun and I'm gonna start carrying it!!
Another question to ponder. If a patron had fallen and claimed they had seriously injured their back at the same time, would video be available? I think that we all know the answer to that question? What happened to the video? How many other 911 calls came from inside Costco about somebody going "berserk and destroying merchandise" and flashing a gun? I mean besides the one from Costco.
in response to ionfield... what an absolute moronic comment... "Do Metro cops sometimes issue contradictory commands to suspects, particularly in black neighborhoods, in order to confuse the suspect in the hopes that the suspect will act on one of the commands and give the cops an excuse to execute a person they find deplorable? And, is this a part of the unwritten Metro culture?"
How many people on here have ever been on a "ride a long" with the police dept in the city in which they live? I had questions about the way metro, NLVPD and Henderson police did things so
I wanted a closer look and over time I have been on ride a longs with all of them. Very eye opening experiences and it made me realize that just because you don't see it on the news doesn't mean nothing happens out there at night.
Unfortunately all of you drug users and felons wont be allowed to particiapte.
While I'd like to see a ban on handguns, this is an issue that's so complex and individual that it seems to me to deserve far more thought and research than is done by most users here. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. I've been around a long time, and lived all over the world; good places and places that some would say are "bad:" Harlem in the 60s, the wrong side of Marseilles, Tangiers and so on, but I've never been accosted, let alone attacked.
What's always concerned me is that, in my view again, everyone has a little something tucked away in their brains and if it snaps, well, things can go terribly wrong.
I also wonder how many who have guns could actually pull the trigger in a situation that requires it.
Frankly, I'd like to see better control over alcohol...it seems to cause more problems and seems also to be the root of a lot of gun violence.
All of that said, shooting, from what I've seen and that's really only been the Olympics, seems to be a tough sport that requires great skill. Unfortunately, in this nation we can't seem to reach a reasonable balance on the issue, like so many others.
When I go to COSTCO, I take my "polish-dog" gun, that way I don't look suspicious.
Routinely wearing a firearm is no different than routinely wearing a vehicle's seatbelt -- exercising such intelligent safety precautions for the purposes of self-preservation is not only a right but a responsible obligation -- safe and proficient handling of automobiles as well as firearms should be goals of intelligent societies uncontingent upon permits, licenses, insurances and fees but rather upon proper training and continuous practice.
: {
You don't need a permit to openly carry in this state. We need to teach people not to fear guns, but the people who have them. My kids have seen me with guns, I am teaching them the proper use for target practice and hunting, then teach then for safety.
Not too long ago everybody carried some kind of weapon on their waist, since we evolved into this "civilized" society we hate weapons and get scare when we see a person carrying a pocket knife. There would be a lot less crime if criminals assume everybody is armed.
I have save my life and those with me in three armed robberies, and no shots were fired.
When you have a gun you are a lot more responsible since you know you can't mess around.
This same thing happened to me at Fresh & Easy a few months ago. My cell phone rang and I went to get it out of my purse. My gun was covering it. My gun was holsterd. I got my phone and dropped my gun in my purse. Someone called the police. I had no clue and realy thought nothing of it. I contunied my shopping when I was approached by metro. I've had a WCP for years. My former husband was a high ranking military officer stationed at Nellis AFB. I now work in a high volume cash type buisness for a lending company. The police however where polite and not confrontational at all. I could of refused the search of my purse. They ran the gun and my license. Told me to be more careful with the weapon in public. It could of been much worse if I stood up for my rights. I had done nothing wrong and I did not want it to become an issue. I'm just lucky someone did not lie nad say I was acting erratic. i could of cost me my life !
@JLO What would have happened if somebody had called saying you were "going berserk and destroying merchandise"?
I don't like guns. Do I need a permit to carry TNT?
@antigov:
Why don't you take that pepperblaster, Markey suggested so many times, to spice up your pasta a little?
Or you could just pump the pepper where the sun never shines instead of using that AC/DC song to annoy the neighbors. You might become a howling wolf after having misused the pepperblaster.
To me you sound like one of the guys, who could have so much fun with their own pepperblaster.
@geenab65:
Good idea. What if you yourself became a weapon?
Let me offer you two weeks of pro bono training at my new martial arts center, self-defence class included.
Carrying a gun is a clever thing to do, but being a deadly weapon could be even more surprising to the next offender.
Out of curiousity, how many here have be shot or violently assaulted?
"udderboda" - It is a known fact that Sweden is perhaps the most crime ridden country in the world, fool!
Guns are used in excess of 2.5 Million times per year to protect someones life and or stop a violent crime.
Carrying a second gun is a smart back up plan in the event yours gets taken away from you. Many lives have been saved because the person had a back up weapon.
RIP Erik Scott.
Some thoughts to consider: People who move to Las Vegas are probably not use to seeing guns worn by citizens. So, perhaps the COSTCO employee is one of those people, and when seeing Eric Scott's gun made an impulsive report that created an avoidable incident. Did the manner of the employee's report suggest a more deadly response was needed. Was the police response for a 211 (robbery in progress), or a 245 (assult with a deadly weapon), etc.? Why wasn't any of that reported in this article?
I submit that if Eric Scott was in COSTCO to rob the store, he would have done so instead of "shopping." The article does not explain what "acting erratically" means. Did the manner of the employee's report to the police inflame their response? Why was a HOLSTERED gun seen as such a threat?. The COSTCO employee HAD TO KNOW that GUNS ARE LEGAL in Nevada. That is why there is a sign on "the front door" saying "no guns permitted." Did the employee tell the police a crime was being committed? Where was the store manager?
Now, Eric Scott is dead, and such rationale matters only to a judge who may ask similar questions, like why wasn't there a CALMER response by the police. What precipitated the font-door, gunfire confrontation by THREEE officers - and the shooting of Scott, in front of a crowd of people. The POLICE KNOW that CITIZENS are ALLOWED to carry guns in Nevada. The POLICE issue the permits. Where was their Patrol Supervisor?
As for whether these officers thought (or failed to "think") they were in "imminent danger" - I wonder if these officers have any EXPERIENCE in handling such situations. Perhaps these officers BELIEVED their "over-kill" reaction was warranted. But THAT IS NOT WHAT THE LAW ALLOWS as an excuse to fire a gun. There has to be some illegal action, violation of the law, or overt threat. Was there reasonable just cause to use lethal force - and in a crowded area? Were there no other means to subdue Scott?
OBVIOUSLY, I DO NOT HAVE ANY FACTS to back up what I have said here. But I do have 10 years of experience as a Virginia Police Department civilian counsel, and 20 years with other law enforcement agencies, This tells me this tradgey could have been avoided. And to me, with the little I know from this article, it does not appear that Scott was so threatening as to warrant being killed - just for carrying a legal gun. While more information is needed, if I am wrong, we are all at risk.
If Scott was committing a crime, the LV SUN failed to report it. Mr. Brian Greenspun stated (5 years ago) that the LV Sun was going to be an investigative Newspaper. Where are the investigative interviews of COSTCO employees, the customers, or the police involved - to confirm what happeed? I guess the courts will explore this for us.
"Many lives have been saved because the person had a back up weapon." Whose statistics and how were they gathered? Also, while stats can vary, Columbia has the highest murder rate and Sweden isn't in the top ten. Where you get 2.5 million is beyond me...oh, maybe the NRA.
Still, no one has answered my question about being shot or violently assaulted. When I say shot, I don't mean during a war.
@The-Socratic-Inkwell: You're assuming that the Metro officers were familiar with Nevada law. One of the shooters in the Scott case came from Massachusetts, which has very restrictive gun laws and does not permit open carrying. MA is very selective about who gets issued a Class A CCW and so it doesn't really surprise me to see that an officer from MA not familiar with Nevada gun laws might overreact. Yes, Metro officers should be trained in Nevada law, but as the Farrell case showed, many Metro officers are not familiar with the law-
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/apr...
There was no sign prohibiting firearms at that Costco location, I went there the day after the shooting and checked. I saw it posted on another forum that another Costco location in Las Vegas does have such a sign.
murrayburns;
Did not you not see the individual who was maliciously attacked with eggs yesterday and responded thanks to his ability to carry a weapon by "shooting out the tires" of a Jeep. Yeah, he hit the window, causing injury, but geez, the guys had eggs! Have you tried to get dried egg off your vehicle?
newman2: You know right. It's as difficult to remove dried egg from a vehicle as it is a bullet from flesh.
You guys have convinced me: Everyone should have a handgun, be able to conceal it and shoot at anything that's potentially dangerous.
Or maybe that old Sullivan law in New York is the way to go.
I carry a pistol because a cop is too heavy.
"We're dealing with two rookie cops and a third cop that had apparently been rejected from police departments in the northeast and had a previous shoot and kill under his belt."
Summerlin,
Just how do we know that the officer had been rejected from depts in the northeast? Were you on their hiring board?
What difference does it make if the officer was involved in a prior shooting? It was ruled as justified. Are you claiming that he is "trigger happy?" What is your basis for this?
How can "rookie cops" become "veteran cops" without the benefit of time on the job.
How do we know that the officers gave conflicting commands? Were you there? NO!
As a parent I know that when my kid was reaching for the hot stove, I yelled "that's hot," then as he got closer, "No" than as he burned himself, "come here," to treat his little burn...This took place in about 1 1/2 seconds....And he looked confused the whole time...
Can a parent give conflicting commands to their child? Sure. All in a short time period depending on what the parent sees. Just like cops...
How long does it take to draw a gun from your waistband?
I could yell several things in about 2 seconds, and you would hear them all....But still have seen NOTHING.
There were statements in the original story that witnesses both did and did not see a gun...
Also there were witnesses that both did and did not see Scott acting strangely in the store.
Wait for the TV movie and make up your mind....
I'll wait for the inquest.
@The -Socratic-Inkwell. Actually, this shooting will go to a Coroner's Inquest where the DA will present the result of Metro's investigation of itself to the jury and the Special Master. The only criminal trial will happen if the Coroner's Inquest finds the actions of the officers criminal and the DA files charges against the officers. The family of the deceased is not allowed to participate in any form. They don't cross examine witnesses, introduce evidence,or present rebuttal witnesses. Any questions they want to ask, must be given to the Special Master who decides if they will be asked. Since 1976, no officer involved shooting has been found criminal. According to the dispatch tapes, the police were responding to a "customer acting erratically(open a case of water to see how many would fit in a container), who had a gun and claimed he was a green beret." One of the 3 officers involved in the shooting, Officer William Mosher did have some experience. He was involved in another fatal officer involved shooting in 2006. That shooting was found by the Inquest to be justified(Aaron Jones April 2006). According to the autospy reports, Erik was shot 7 times, 5 while he was on the ground. He was also tased as he was shot. None of the 911 calls from inside Costco has been released, but the only reference to a 911 call on the dispatch tapes is from a Costco employee. There have been no other reports of 911 calls, nor any witness coming forward to state that they felt threatened enough to call 911 from inside the store. There are conflicting reports as to what commands were given Erik as he was confronted by officers with guns drawn outside Costco and if in fact he had his weapon in his hand. The sheriff has also indicated that they have not been able to get any images off any video, inside or outside Costco, and Sheriff Gillespie doubts that the lab in CA that is being paid by Metro will ever recover any images. The DA has postponed the Coroner's Inquest indefinitly because Metro has not furnished any of their investigation.
Tanker,
I'm sure that Scott WAS shot 7 times, but where did you get the Coroner's report? Where did it say he was shot while on the ground? Link please?
The only report that we have that Scott was "open a case of water to see how many would fit in a container" is from his family.
But there was a 9-1-1 call of him acting erratically.
So sure, vilify the police for doing their job, responding to an armed subject acting erratically, and don't give them the benefit of ANY doubt, but you are POSITIVE that Scott was not to blame AT ALL....
If the inquest finds the officers were justified, will you have the courage to publicly appologise for you slanderous comments, and vilify Scott?
I think not.
People in NV are lucky they live in a relatively Free state. Unfortunately, I live in the PRC, (Peoples Republik of California), which for all practical purposed doesn't issue CCW permits 2 anyone unless they're celebrities, politicians or contribute heavily 2 a sheriffs election campaign. The best solution I've found is to say SCREW THE LAW. I've carried a gun without a permit all my adult life, under the theory, "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6". But on a more fundamental level: You don't need "permission" to exercise a RIGHT.
People in NV are lucky they live in a relatively Free state. Unfortunately, I live in the PRC, (Peoples Republik of California), which for all practical purposed doesn't issue CCW permits 2 anyone unless they're celebrities, politicians or contribute heavily 2 a sheriffs election campaign. The best solution I've found is to say SCREW THE LAW. I've carried a gun without a permit all my adult life, under the theory, "Better judged by 12 than carried by 6". But on a more fundamental level: You don't need "permission" to exercise a RIGHT.
@ Devildog. The autospy report information came from the family's attorney who got it from the coroner. The report of opening a case of water comes from the 72 year old couple who were next to Scott inside Costco while he was talking to an employee. What other 911 calls were recieved from inside Costco if he was acting so erratically. How did I vilify the police? What did I say that was inaccurate? I reported facts that had been previously reported, and do not seem to be in dispute. I am already sure that the Inquest will find the shooting justified. There hasn't been a criminal finding since 1976, why change now, especially since Metro is investigating itself and the video tapes are gone, according to the sheriff. The longer this goes on, the more advantage to the police. People's memories fade. Here is an example of how towns in New Mexico deal with officer involved shooting, have an outside agency investigate. http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1699...
I no longer live in Vegas, I live in N Idaho now, another state that allows open carried guns; I have a valid concealed weapons permit, and just miles from my house I have a Costco. The other day I went to the Costco to see if any signs were up saying no firearms allowed; although I spent ten minutes looking, there was no signs anywhere at the store, yet I saw people[a few] openly packing; its anybodies guess how many were carrying concealed guns, as I was. I also went to a Target Store,then a Shopko, even Sears, no signs. Is anybody sure there was a no handguns allowed sign at this Costco, on Charleston?
@DevilDog:
"Just how do we know that the officer had been rejected from depts in the northeast? Were you on their hiring board?"
Why don't you ask Officer Mosher about it? While you're at it, also ask him what led to his leaving the Massachusetts Department of Corrections job as a prison guard to go to Vegas....
I would never "vilify the police for doing their job"--but when the police make tactical mistakes, kill an innocent civilian and then issue press statements in an attempt to justify the killing, you can bet that I will call them on it. That's not vilifying the police for doing their job, it's more like holding the police accountable when they fail to do their job.
And DevilDog, I think most of us are EXPECTING the shooting to be ruled either excused or justified at the inquest. That is what happens when a government agency investigates itself, provides the results of the investigation to a local prosecutor's office that works with the agency on a daily basis and representatives of the deceased can't ask any questions throughout the proceeding. Legal proceedings in the former Soviet Union worked the same way and quite frankly, I don't have any more faith in the inquest process than I have in the process that was used in communist Russia.
Want to add some legitimacy? Have an outside law enforcement agency investigate OIS and allow the deceased to be represented by counsel at inquest hearings so that the panel can hear both sides of the story before rendering a decision. Allowing a panel to hear from both sides in a hearing--pretty radical stuff, huh?
Hmmm...carrying TWO concealed guns into a Costco! Allowing your concealed gun to no longer being concealed and then having complete control of the events that lead him to being shot. This could never have happended if...he didnt take TWO guns into costco, properly concealed one of his "concealed" weapons, left when he was asked to leave by costco employees and following the directives of the trigger happy police department. Yea, its the police's fault alright. This is tragic, but certainly avoidable. I just have to question the state of mind of a person that feels he has to carry TWO concealed guns into a summerlin costco.
@murrayburns:
I don't think carrying a gun has much to do with having been assaulted already at least once.
It's more that staying alive thing, I mean:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059578/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058461/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099088/
Devildog--nickname for Marines. Anybody know any marines?
Summerlin:
Are you a native to Nevada, I'm not and neither are most people that live in Las Vegas now.
So why did people move here in flocks from other states? More job opportunities, better pay and benefits? So why does this reflect negatively on Mosher? Have you ever worked in a jail??? Cops on the east coast do not get paid as well as cops on the west coast.
If I worked in a prison and got low pay, and then had an opportunity to make more money in a better job, so I could provide better for MY family, I would jump at the chance.
BTW, I wouldn't want our state police investigating ANYTHING criminal, they don't even know how to investigate misdemeanors that happen on the freeway...
Everyone here is jumping to conclusions about "tactical mistakes" the police made...Everyone here is making assumptions based upon a few statements from folks who "were there" supposedly...What about the statements from other witnesses that "were there," and SAW SCOTT POINT A GUN AT THE POLICE, do their statements not count?
Tanker: the only person that has reported that Scott was shot on the ground was a bystander, NOT the coroner's report...In the back yes, on the ground...no...And where in the report was the "taser" used....that would be a violation of the police policy on using the taser on a person armed with a firearm. If one of the cops there fired a taser, then he couldn't have shot Scott with his gun also...
Is Goodman embellishing a little in his statements? Most lawyers do, wonder where he learned HIS tactics.
And what is the reference to Marines all about?
QUOTE
It's so obvious! The answer to excessive gun violence is, of course, MORE guns. Because, when everyone had guns in the West in the 18th and 19th centuries, there was NO violence in these parts. Right? Wrong!
UNQUOTE
Basically true.
See John Lott's scientific and highly credible study "More Guns Less Crime".
Violence in these parts - the "old west"? I think you'll find there was less violence per capita.
There is MUCH truth in the statement, "An armed society is a polite society."
Simple solution to figure out what happened, release the video and 911 calls and let the chips fall where they may. Opps, video not usable, may never be useable according to the sheriff. The lab Metro sent it to can't recover any images. Until that happens, based on previous history, the process will be viewed with suspicion and distrust. There are way too many instances in the past year ranging from fatal shootings (Cole and Scott) to lying about officers actions (Manor) and the intentional disobedience of orders (Ubbens and Carpenter). There was a big announcement when the charges on Ubbens and Carpenter were forwarded to the DA, as if to say, public, look we can investigate ourselves. What has happened to those charges besides sit on a desk and hope the public forgets. If people think this will go away, and be forgotten, don't count on it. Until the truth comes out, it will never go away. The Long Gray Line never forgets.
Chuck-Norris: So you're directing us to Clint Eastwood movies for intellectual support of your position? Maybe that's the problem: You guys live in a fantasy world.
With regard to being assaulted or shot, of course it has some bearing on this. It's futile to get into some sort of Constitutional engagement here, as that continues elsehere with people I think are far more knowledgeable that we are. However, generally I would think people carry concealed weapons for protection and it follows that they actually need protection. And, if they feel they need protection, it logically seems to me that the only valid reason for needing that protection is some sort of experience that forced the carrier into that position, because if one is just going by crime statistics, that's almost patently absurd, as they differ so much.
Therefore, I was wondering how many here supporting this issue have been either shot or violently assaulted. Apparently none at this point.
@mschaffer,
Regardless of HOW people kill themselves, Australia's and the U.S.'s suicide rates are very nearly identical, the small difference accounted for by the difference in the ages of our populations (suicide being disproportionately an act of older people, of whom the U.S. has a somewhat higher percentage).
And regardless of HOW people kill each other, the most significant difference in our murder rates is accounted for by the difference in the racial composition of our populations and the different rates at which different races commit murder. A politically sensitive fact, but a fact nevertheless.
A minuscule percentage of concealed carry permit holders ever commit murder, and a large percentage of murders (if not a majority) are committed by persons who wouldn't qualify to hold a CCP anyway by virtue of their age or prior criminal history.
As concealed carry laws have become less restrictive, the U.S. violent crime rate has been going down. Logically, this makes sense, because law abiding citizens who carry guns are a deterrent to criminals. If that were not true, why would we arm police officers?
I'm disappointed to know that so few citizens do carry concealed, but I'm part of that problem since I rarely carry my firearm. Self-defense is the most elemental right of a human being, and the first responsibility of a citizen.
I don't know enough of the details of the Scott shooting, but I hope that the police were not called by Costco just because an employee caught an accidental glimpse of a firearm. The story says Scott was "acting erratically." I wish this statement had been explored more in the story.
Regardless of what your stance is, someone will think twice about doing anything illegal...
Since I'm not prescient, unlike some of the posters who apparently know when they'll be attacked, I decided to carry all the time, wherever legal. If I knew when some nut job was going to try a robbery or mass killing, personally, I'd avoid the place.
Why carry two guns at the same time? I was speaking with a Sheriff's Lt. last week and his statement was, "You should!" Mechanical things can break. I also have a spare tire in both my wife's van and my truck.
Devil dog you have some good points. Summerlin, I know some people who saw the whole thing and when the inquest happens, you are in for a wake up call and I hope you apologize for the remarks you are making. All you are doing is getting people stirred up who are not as smart as you. You have no facts at all. You will see pretty soon what Scott really did and then I trust we will all see you post some postiive things about the men and women who protect this city.
@murrayburns:
'if they feel they need protection, it logically seems to me that the only valid reason for needing that protection is some sort of experience that forced the carrier into that position...'
Don't talk bs, please, murray, you do not have to experience everything bad, before you decide to care for your own self-defense. Usually it's enough to hear about/know someone who made some very bad experiences, or just watch a report or a movie where you can learn about (possible) patterns of behaviour, the real bad guys might use when coming after you.
That's why I always know when to take my non-concealed bazooka with me and when it's me myself being weapon enough for the next sumbag approaching. But, of course, you're always free to (re-)live your own personal paranoia nightmare experiences. Go ahead, put a gun beneath your pillow, but do not shoot a family member entering your house/room in the middle of the night.
@lcare2009: I've been the first to say that if the VIDEOTAPE at the inquest shows Scott going "beserk" inside the store and pointing a gun at officers, I would have no problem saying the officers were justified.
But here's my prediction about what is going to happen: Metro will finish investigating itself. Metro's "investigation" will find that nothing could be recovered from the videotape because the hard drive was somehow "corrupted". The eyewitness testimony presented at the inquest will be conflicting (if the media hadn't interviewed some of the eyewitnesses, there wouldn't even be "conflicting" testimony, it would have been the full Metro propaganda that Scott was destroying the store and pointing a weapons at officers). Because there are conflicting accounts and the videotape is "unavailable", the trigger happy officers will return to duty.
Once again, that's just a prediction. Maybe I'll be surprised and the videotapes will be shown. But don't expect me or anyone else to put any stock in the outcome of the flawed inquest process unless the videotapes are produced.
@Icare2009. Show the video tapes and release the 911 calls from inside Costco. As croweded as Costco is at that time on a Saturday, I am sure that if he was "going berserk" there would be lots of calls. The dispatch tape only refers to one, the one from a Costco employee. Do you think that people would be near him as the store was evacuated if he was "going berserk"? Not likely. Was he pushing a shopping cart out. In order to push a cart out of Costco, you have to have gone through a check-out line. Hardly the actions of somebody "going beserk". Do you think that the video would be "corrupted" if something had fallen off a top shelf and seriously injured a shopper? I think not. I'm not going to buy the old tired argument that video in big box store doesn't always work. Last night on the news I saw video from a bank robbery and video from the parking lot where the 95 year old lady was mugged. I hope Metro is investigating what happened to the video and will be filing charges against the person or persons responsible for evidence tampering. The silence from the DA and the Sheriff is very troubling. When is this going to Inquest? The longer it is delayed, the better for Metro. This shooting will be found either justified or excusable just like all the others. The Trevon Cole case, despite the serious questions about the search warrant will be found excusable or justified. Just like they all are.
"Carrying a gun in a Costco is stupid. Unless you're a law enforcement officer, keep your guns at home."
Geeze, another one of those people who runs on emotion rather than fact. Leave off the name-calling & try supporting your position with reason & facts (that includes citations).
These facts are taken from the PDF of compiled gun-related research available for free download at www.GunFacts.info:
"People in the United States use guns to defend themselves against criminals about once every 13 seconds." Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Fall 1995
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (2005) & Targeting Guns, Kleck, "The rate of defensive gun use is six times the rate of criminal gun use."
According to this study [Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws, Clayton Cramer, David Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994], police kill people by mistake far more often than civilians do: "11% of police shootings kill an innocent person, about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person."
The courts have consistently ruled that the police do _not_ have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `"courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'
"people are carrying guns is exactly what is INCREASING the risk for the rest of us"
CRIMINALS are the problem, not law-abiding citizens who carry a gun for protection against criminals. Law-abiding citizens aren't the ones participating in "wild west" shootouts - those are the criminals killing each other, or in this case the criminals in uniform killing a citizen.
"What if no one carried a gun, ever, except for police officers, now wouldn't that be the only thing that would really make us all safer?"
It wouldn't make me "feel" safer, because I know the facts. (See below.)
Besides, how are you going to get all the guns away from the criminals who are creating all the problems now? How are you going to prevent them from making more guns? (Guns are actually pretty easy to make; they're a basic machine.)
And why do you think that an attempt to disarm the American people would turn out any better than disarming any other country? Because the countries that have tried it (including Canada, Britain, Australia, Scotland, Brazil...) have all had rises in the rate of violent crime AFTER banning private ownership of guns.
In fact, according to this study [Violence, Guns and Drugs: A Cross-Country Analysis, Jeffery A. Miron, OCT2001], "countries with the strictest gun-control laws also tended to have the highest
homicide rates."
According to this [Juristat: Crime Statistics in Canada, 2004 and FBI Uniform Crime Statistics] "In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the US (963 vs. 475 per 100,000)."
According to this [Criminal Victimization in Seventeen Industrialized Countries, Dutch Ministry of Justice, 2001] "Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries."
According to this [A Comparison of Violent and Firearm Crime Rates in the Canadian Prairie Provinces and Four US Border States, 1961-2003, Parliamentary Research Branch of the Library of Parliament, March 7, 2005], "The crime rate is 66% higher in four Canadian Prairie Provinces than in the northern US states across the border." That's coming from the CANADIAN GOVERNMENT itself! They admit their subjects are in more danger than our citizens.
"I don't see the need to carry for other than professional reasons."
Then don't.
Other people make other decisions about how they will exercise their rights.
You make decisions for you, I make decisions for me.
Neither you nor any level of government should put their nose into other people's business.
"Another thought that is not raised is how accurate a permit holder is when shooting at a person."
About as accurate as police, which is to say not very.
"Police shoot at least 4 - 6 times a year at the range and draw their weapons thousands of times."
What fantasy land are you living in? Most officers never draw their weapons other than to clean them, and most departments require authorization once or maybe twice a year. I go to the range at least once a month, for about 200 rounds.
"I don't see how the list of qualifications to carry CCW is such an infringment on my rights."
Then you'll be OK with a class & test (to be repeated every 5 years) in order to exercise your other priveledges (because if the government can control who has them, they're not rights):
assembly
religion
speech
publishing (newspaper, blog)
petitioning the government (write your rep!)
no self-incrimination
no quartering of soldiers in your home
voting
no search, seizure, or taking of property without a warrant
no excessive bail
speedy trial
confronting witnesses
having counsel
no double jeopardy
trial by jury
And that's just in the first 8 amendments (except for voting).
So for EACH of those (former) rights you want to exercise, you'll have to take a government-approved class (for a fee) and a government test (again, for a fee, & answering the way the government wants you to answer), pay for a background check, certify that you don't have a disability, and do it all over again in a few years to renew your license.
Still feel like it's not an infringment?
MKEgal,
Where do you get your info on "What fantasy land are you living in? Most officers never draw their weapons other than to clean them, and most departments require authorization once or maybe twice a year."
For Metro, they are REQUIRED to pass a comprehensive qualification quarterly, and for you fund of knowledge, officers have to draw their weapons far more often that most people think....If you ever hear a cop say, "I never drew my gun except to clean it," than he was NOT a very good cop, or was lazy.
Each time an officer clears a house or business that has been burglarized, stops a stolen car, or makes some other felony stop on a person or car, that do have their weapons out, and are prepared to use them for self defense.
Police officers today are getting shot at much more than in the past. In years past, officers were more likely to be killed in a car wreck, but in recent years, criminals are more violent than ever, and homicides on LEO's are increasing at an alarming rate. Check any LEO website if you don't believe me.
Summerlin, you STILL hanvent answered my questions to you....why?
@DevilDog, I guess I didn't see your questions, but let me answer them.
You asked what's wrong with someone going to Vegas for better opportunities and more pay and suggested that cops get paid more in Vegas than on the East Coast.
There would be absolutely nothing wrong with someone moving for better opportunities and better pay. But cops in Massachusetts get paid far more than cops in Vegas. I'd post an article from the Boston Globe talking about MA having some of the nation's highest police salaries, but it would be copyrighted material and get pulled from the blog, so you'll just have to Google it yourself (see May 6, 2010: "Amid cuts, big pay for police").
The East Coast/West Coast disparity might work if you compare a North Carolina police department against the LAPD, but not when you're talking about Massachusetts vs. Nevada.
Also, it doesn't look like Mosher left Massachusetts moved to take a job with Metro. It appears he was working security in a small, now defunct locals casino when he first moved to Vegas. He didn't get picked up by Metro until later.
Still waiting for an answer: Who here, who carries a concealed weapon, has ever been violently assaulted, threatened with assault or shot anyone outside of a warzone?
You gun guys always have a problem with that question.
@DevilDog. Let's just look at the numbers in Las Vegas. Since 2006, two officers have been shot in the line of duty and one seriously wounded. Three officers have died in traffic accidents in the past year. Since 2005, there have been have been 63 officer involved fatal shootings. I have lived here for over 10 years, and I don't seem to remember daily stories of officers being shot at. It usually happens in an officer involved shooting. Prior to Henry Prendes being killed in 2006, the last officer shot and killed was around 1989. Nationally, what is happening with LEO is what is happening with society. It is becoming more violent.
murrayburns
As I have described during the discussion of another related article, I have been violently assaulted...twice.
SusanKH: I'm sorry that happened to you. Do you now carry a weapon?
murrayburns
Yes, I do. I sincerely hope that I will never have to use it. However if I ever do, my training and proficiency will most likely insure the outcome.
Once someone has tried to kill you and caused you great bodily harm, you lose a part of yourself that you can never get back.
As a30 year resident I can tell you that Metro is given very little training to its recruits on carrying of guns either openly or concealed. I worked here for 25 years as an armed security officer and was stopped several times for just carring my gun in plain view. I was in full unifrom and had all the required paperwork butwas told that I didnt have a right to carry. as for NMLV you can pass through town carrying either concealed or open carry.
SusanKH: You sound refreshingly rational and that you have "training and proficiency" gives me more than a ray of hope that there are others out there with those same qualities. So you understand, I do know what's like to be wounded, though I don't carry, let alone own any weapons, save several versions of a Swiss Army Knife.
As for "losing part of myself I can never get back," well, I think everyone's different. There was no hangover for me, save the fact that I'm more aware in certain surroundings.
I hope you stay safe and never have to use your weapon.
@getalife
Yes I routinely carry too even in places like WalMart,grocery store, drug stores etc. I'm not paranoid---Im the one with a gun.
@murrayburns
Well I have been stalked and followed in my car for about 20 minutes one morning on sparsely traveled county roads. the stalker was following me turn for turn and stayed back about 150 feet. I had forgotten my cell phone but was packing my .40 cal. Not exactly a shootout or an assault but at the time it was occurring who knows what will happen? But when something like that happens your heart rate increases and you are stressed. My comfort was the ability to defend myself should it come down to that. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Guns are like seatbelts, you wear them to try to ensure your safety, hoping they're never actually needed. But if they are needed, it's too late to put it on. Just ask Meredith Emerson, sorry you can't. She was kidnapped, robbed, raped, murdered and decapitated while wlking her dog in a state park in Georgia, 1/1/2008. Being a blue belt in a non-specified martial art, she disarmed her attacker twice before he overpowered her. "She almost beat me!" he said. He kept her dog. And he waved at a passing cop just before killing her despite a BOLO out on him and his van. He was caught when an alert citizen noticed he matched the BOLO description while he was cleaning up after the murder.
In the simplest of terms, the second amendment prohibits any law making it a crime to OWN a weapon or firearm or to have a weapon or firearm ON YOUR PERSON. Once a weapon or firearm is in your hand, it is now no longer considered to be on your person, you are now USING it. Nothing in the Constitution prohibits laws pertaining to the unlawful USE of a weapon or firearm. That is the difference. Gun control is against the second amendment. Gun USE control is 100% constitutional.
As far as I'm concerned, the Costco employee who called the police should be charged as an accessory to negligent homicide. Whether or not the Officer should be charged is iffy because on the one hand he was doing his job but on the other hand should not be free from accountability for what he did. "Discharge a firearm and you are responsible for the consequenses."