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StumbleSUN EDITORIAL:
Progress in the Senate
Senate on verge of saving teachers’ jobs and bolstering Medicaid
Thursday, Aug. 5, 2010 | 2:01 a.m.
Good things can happen when Democrats break through Republican logjams in the Senate. We wish this would happen more often, but the current group of Republican senators has been impossible to deal with because they have shown no interest in lending a hand to turn around the nation’s battered economy.
Republicans have consistently voted against legislation to create jobs and give small businesses the relief they need to survive and expand. The Senate minority, interested only in securing tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans, simply has turned its back on the nation’s middle class.
That is why it was welcome relief when a unified Senate Democratic majority, aided by Republican Sens. Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins of Maine, voted 61 to 38 Wednesday to end a Republican filibuster on a $26 billion spending bill that would help states bolster education and Medicaid programs. The measure, which would save an estimated 140,000 jobs for teachers, firefighters and other civil servants nationwide, is expected to get a final vote in the Senate as early as today.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, who led the fight to end the filibuster, said the bill would give Nevada schools an additional $83 million to keep educators working and would add $79 million to the state’s Medicaid coffers. Because more than 160,000 Nevadans rely on Medicaid, the additional money is sorely needed.
Stating that the procedural vote offered a simple choice, Reid said, “We could either stand up for the jobs of teachers, firefighters and police officers by saying yes, or we could have turned our back on them and their families by saying no. By overcoming this procedural hurdle, we are one step away from ensuring teachers’ jobs are secure for this school year, that funds are available for Nevadans who rely on Medicaid, and that our state avoids a budget shortfall that could result in more layoffs.”
What could Republicans possibly have been thinking by trying to filibuster this legislation? Do they want teachers to lose their jobs? Do they want children, seniors and others who rely on Medicaid to live on the streets? Those irresponsible senators will have some explaining to do back home when they face constituents who are struggling to keep their jobs and make ends meet.
Additionally, to help turn the economy around, everything possible should be done to preserve existing jobs and give businesses a fighting chance to create new ones. People with jobs spend more money on goods and services, and take more vacations to tourist destinations such as Las Vegas.
We look forward to swift passage of this bill in the Senate and encourage the House to do likewise. The help this legislation would bring cannot come quickly enough.
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Another Union bailout
Every month Obama-Reid-Pelosi pass another $30 to $50 billion more to support the selected consituants to ensures the vote in the fall
Still no jobs bill
USA Today 8-4-10
Nevada has received only $1,377 per person from the Obama--Reid-Pelosi stimulus money while it has a nation high jobless rate of 14.2%.
Alaska has received whooping $3,505 per person in stimulus money while it has a jobless rate of just 7.9%
And this is why we need to re-elect Harry Reid?
The private sector has "pension envy". Whats left of it anyway.
Don't you think the repubs are worried about where the money is going to come from to pay for to enact this bill now and in the future? This bill is being added to the national debt, thanks to the dems.
Hey, boys and girls, be prepared to work harder and plus your children will get to work harder, too.
Why?
Because we are going to just keep added trillions upon trillions upon trillions on your credit cards.
Republican sociopaths hate the middle class. They wont stop until every job is on par with a Walmart job.
"Alaska has received whooping $3,505 per person in stimulus money while it has a jobless rate of just 7.9%"
Alaska also has a booming oil industry, and charges far more in taxes than we do (therefore, more federal matching funds). Oh, and it has far fewer people! Whoops, there goes the attempted slam...
"Don't you think the repubs are worried about where the money is going to come from to pay for to enact this bill now and in the future?"
NO! The GOoPers were never worried when Bush took us into two wars, then topped them off with all those tax cuts for the super-rich. "The wars will pay for themselves. The tax cuts will pay for themselves." Obviously, not.
"Republican sociopaths hate the middle class. They wont stop until every job is on par with a Walmart job."
You speak the truth, okra. They won't stop until we can all be exploited as cheap labor.
140,000 teachers and OTHER civil servants. If it was ONLY teachers that would amount to just 2.3 percent of the K-12 education work force. Government has remained bloated during this recession while the private sector has been looted to pay for the bloated government, private individuals have lost their jobs and seen incomes drop as a result.
Can't we just get rid of the filibuster ? It took a simple majority to annex Texas- I'm sorry that we did.
Maybe the teachers will now finally teach the children math and the children will realize that they are the ones who will pay for it with a lower standard of living and reduced opportunity.
Unless they can get on the fire dept, of course.
Heh get rid of the last couple of jobs- you trust fund babies don't have a clue !
Lets start counting the beans after the housing bubble burst not before the 2 wars and the rich peoples tax cuts. That death tax ban was death to the middle class.
Gogowhitesox is so wrong it's pitiful. Your level of ignorance is frightening.
In your case your teachers failed you! It's apparent you never gained the skills to do the needed research and historical analysis necessary to be better informed.
Most teachers in this country do pay a portion of their pensions.
When public service employees have collective bargaining rights, their salaries and benefits are negotiated and agreed to by management. Isn't that the capitalist system you so vehemently promote?
By the way if public employees have pensions and benefits it comes from sacrifices and trade offs during collective bargained negotiations.
More of the capitalism you worship.
Public employess in Nevada, while serving the interests of the public are on the front lines delivering you the essential services to protect your well-being.
I don't think, you ask the firefighter what his salary is or his pension, when your house is on fire and he rushes in and risks his life.
State government workers do not have collective bargaining rights. They work at the mercy of the State legislators and managers. You didn't mention that in your diatribe.
Because we live in a me first society,it's understandable, when there is an economic downturn public employees are targeted as the enemies.
But when the economy is booming and the private sector provides unlimited salaries, bonuses, stocks, golden parachutes and more your public employees never share in those good times.
That's the trade off because public employees understand they will never become rich but enter their chosen vocation and profession to protect and serve the public.
education bailout is "pure political evil" says Cato Institute: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/08/0...
LVtruth,
Not quite. Not all state and local government employees are unionized. Many are working under the collective bargaining agreements made between the governments and local unions.
It also used to be true that government workers were paid less and in exchange had decent pensions and job security. Now they have job security, great pensions, and higher salaries than jobs in the private sector regardless of how good or bad the economy is. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010...
Finally, there are more unionized government workers today than there are unionized workers in the private sector.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires,and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
Any guesses on who said that? It just goes to show how extreme today's wingnuts really are. Speaking of which, wasn't cato started by oil millionaires?
More debt to save the Unions. Looks like the non-union workers are going to continue to get the shaft from the Demcrats.
Vote buying is alive and well.
Okra,
Full Ike quote in historical context here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/ik...
Get rid of tenure for union teachers.
nez212 said:
"Get rid of tenure for union teachers."
Hmmmmm....are you saying that teachers who join a union should not have tenure, but teachers who don't belong to a union should be given tenure? Please explain....
I must ask....what state or states are you talking about?
Some states have tenure laws (Illinois for example....) but Nevada does not have a tenure law as such....not the way Illinois does!
Teachers in Nevada can be "let go" for various reasons. It happens every year...
The teacher's union in Nevada is very weak. The local teacher's union (CTA) in the CCSD, is so weak that many of the teachers, particulary veteran teachers, do NOT belong to the union....
Nevada teachers can not strike...they can be fired if they strike!
Over the last 15-20 years, teachers in the CCSD have been forced to go back to work at the beginning of a new school year with out a contract....this has happened at least 10-12 times....
Hmmmmmm....it appears that my little carpetbagger buddy (gogo) from Chicago is still under the false belief that the Republicans are going to take back control of the House and Senate come Novemeber. He also believes that Harry Reid will not win re-election to the Senate...
Boy, that little guy has some very strange beliefs... Hope that's not a case of "selective amnesia" on his part....
Maybe he enjoyed way too much of that Iowa corn during his tenure back there?
Heck, maybe nothing more than one or two unneeded snort from the Chicago river on St. Pat's Day!
_________________________
gogo said:
".....Come November the "Grand Experiment" in Socialism is going to be s***canned and the perpetrators ousted from their luxury perches in Washington, D.C."
I guess gogo is ignoring the latest polls out there that show Harry gaining strength almost daily.....at one time, Harry was over 10% points behind the "crazy Lady" in the polls but has now inched ahead...
With three months left in the campaign, one of the big questions is whether or not the "crazy Lady" can match Harry in money available for the final push into November....
I wonder if gogo has mailed in his weekly campaign donation to the "crazy Lady" as yet?
Hey gogo, don't forget to do that....that "no separation of church & state gal" needs all the help she can get...
Despite the fact that "you know who" told here to run for the US Senate, it appears that she hasn't as yet received a campaign donation from "you know who".....
Perhaps "you know who" is struggling a bit in terms of paying his bills....this "Republican induced recession" has been tough on most everyone.
Only the rich & greedy Republicans has survived in the manner that they're accustomed to.....
It's no surprise that they're fighting like crazy to extend the tax cuts for the rich...
EL_LOBO:"Get rid of tenure for union teachers."
Hmmmmm....are you saying that teachers who join a union should not have tenure, but teachers who don't belong to a union should be given tenure? Please explain....
Thats exactly what I am saying!
1 IF THEY BELONG TO A UNION THEY WORK FOR THE UNION.
2 IF THEY DONT THEY WORK FOR THE PUBLIC.
ITS THE SAME IN NEVADA AS IT IS EVERYWHERE ELSE.
Why is there no outcry from the supporting bloggers of the radical extremist so-called republicans when the total bailout for the Wall St. Ganksters, Robber Baron Equity firms, credit card companies, etc... including guarantees is $15,860,507,000,000,(www.zerohedge.com) Is that not Socialism for Capitalists?
Does that not pale in comparison to the stimulus funds that is sorely needed to get America's economic engine back on the tracks to full recovery?
Are the so-called republicans doing anything to help America to get going?
They helped create the economic mess we are in but they will not accept responsibility, nor will they lift as much as a little finger to help. All they do is Obstruct and constantly say No.
Do they not want to be a part of the political process?
Where is their plan?
Can they show us their record of accomplishment?
Vidi
The Tea Party was marching in the streets protesting the bank bailouts.
How long before the Unions need to be bailed out again?
The debt is being monetized. That means inflation.
The nastiest economic condition is hyperinflation. No one knows what ground conditions must exist for it to happen. No one is certain what causes it and it can appear suddenly.
I think we are going to see hyperinflation maybe later this year..or in the spring of next year. It should be interesting as no one in our generation has experienced it..
Hyperinflation has one underlying cause... creating the illusion of stability or wealth by tossing money in the streets.
Hyperinflation is a Currency Bubble.
The productivity of the country is moribund and the money just keeps pouring into the economy.
The democrats are not being compassionate or saving anyone or anything if they create hyperinflation and/or bankrupt the country with their "bailouts."
xtra, The Bailout was put together by the miserable failure administration of covert president cheney and puppet bush. The parties involved signed documents, making it a legal and binding document. Did you ever hear of, or know anything about the Uniform Commercial Code?
xtra, the economy is moribund because of the "Almost" financial collapse that cost "We the People" 20% of our National wealth (over $11,000,000,000,000) that took over 200 years to create, and will take 40 years to return to where we were before the collapse, that is if everybody cooperates and does the right thing.
There are approximately 309,000,000 men, women, and children in this country. How much has each one lost if the losses were per capita?
nez212 said....
"1 IF THEY BELONG TO A UNION THEY WORK FOR THE UNION.
2 IF THEY DONT THEY WORK FOR THE PUBLIC.
ITS THE SAME IN NEVADA AS IT IS EVERYWHERE ELSE."
Sorry but you don't get it.... The courts have consistently said that public employees can belong to a union, and a union can represent public employees in contract negotiations...
Tenure laws have also been upheld in the courts...In short, a teacher who is tenured can also belong to a union....
You need to get in the REAL world...
VidiVeritus
The economy is moribund..not because of paper money and stocks.... but because the economy (manufacturing base) that took 200 years to build was dismantled, packed on trucks and shipped over the border and across the sea courtesy of CLINTON. Obama loves the Unions and he promised to get rid of NAFTA..Still Waiting..but not holding my breath. GM is building a $500 million job/stimulus plant in Mexico as we write.
Yes, I studied the Uniform Commercial Code but..paper is paper..
Hey gogo....
Quit drinking from the Chicago river. It's starting to rot your brain...
I think you ignored this part of my post...read it & learn something for a change...It will make you think, if that's possible...
"With three months left in the campaign, one of the big questions is whether or not the "crazy Lady" can match Harry in money available for the final push into November....
I wonder if gogo has mailed in his weekly campaign donation to the "crazy Lady" as yet?
Hey gogo, don't forget to do that....that "no separation of church & state gal" needs all the help she can get..."
The proof will be in the pudding my little carpetbagger from Chicago...
Be brave, brace up & face the real world. You're take on what you believe is going to happen on Nov 2nd. is simply a case of you swimming in the "river of denial."
Maybe that's the "Chicago river of denial"? I bet you love it when the river become green on St. Pat's Day......a green, green gogo!
gogo
The people who are deriding Angle have not read any literature pre 1960's. They don't seem to be able to read the standard terminology and concepts that Angle uses and therefore, could not read Milton, or Calvin or ...even Madison with any appreciation for the thoughts expressed by the words.
It reveals a lack of education, cultural illiteracy and general ignorance that is so common today in the liberal left.
El_Lobo
If the liberal left taxes tobacco, bans tobacco from public places, in fact slowly makes tobacco illegal or so expensive it is prohibitive..if the liberals do that for "health" or "children" it is right and responsibility of the government to look after the well being and welfare of the masses..
But if the religious right banned alcohol..honestly..just banned it for the same good reasons, using an old word for "bad habit" which is "sin"..that violates separation of Church and State?
El Lobo, Nevada has tenure laws...we just don't call it tenure...
IF the left preaches neandertal "warm and cuddly myth" promulgated by the Eminent German Scholar .. Professor Reiner Protsch, that is "science?
But if Religious Right..in fact, anyone who dares question the Distinguished scholar, Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten and his anthropomorphic wet dreams..is a looney creationist?
The darwinist claim that any person who questions or any opinion that conflicts with the evolutionary gospel according Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten should stay out of the schools because of Separation of Church and State
BUT..American school children can be taught a fraud..and not one of the darwinist had a problem with that..not even a question..Talk About Rubes.."Gee Golly Whiz..look at them cave men, Ma. Fancy that!" That is science?
This is what was taught while people who questioned this were beaten verbally by ignorant fools who claimed a question or an expression of doubt was stupid and violating Separation of Church and State..
"Anthropology is going to have to completely revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago," said Thomas Terberger, the archaeologist who discovered the hoax. "Prof Protsch's work appeared to prove that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had co-existed, and perhaps even had children together. This now appears to be rubbish."
Yep, that John Calvin should be required reading for all Americans.....
The Germans had their "Mein Kampf" and the Chinese have their "little Red Book."
The "Communist Manifesto" is still making the rounds in Russia, and who knows, maybe that book that Gibby loves, "The Wealth of Nations" will again be on the best seller list...
All written well before 1960...back when books were books...anything written since that time is literally trash, nonsense, and void of thought or reason.....mostly left-wing propaganda!
Talking about Calvin...What a giant he was....it's a shame he never stepped foot in North America.....
Of course, all those Texans who ride cows and horses and piss into the wind, know who Calvin was...they know so much about him that they plan to put him in all their high school history text books in place of Thomas Jefferson...
After all, what did Jefferson do that was worth while? Any light-weight could have written the Declaration of Independence, came up with the Virginia Bill of Rights or started the University of Virginia....
Jefferson almost broke the bank when he bought that huge worthless piece of land from Napoleon in 1803..
Then he spent a huge amount of money having Lewis and Clark map, explore, and travel through out that area, even visiting and talking with the Indian tribes they met... A total waste of this country's resources...
What a nut Jefferson was.....he actually believed in the concept of "separation of church and state." Thought that public education should become available to all who displayed outstanding academic ability...
Even poor kids would be able to go to school and learn.. What an early socialist idea that was....
Why he talked about freeing all of the slaves in this country and was interested in categorizing every plant and animal in North America. What good would that have done?
His interest in science is scary. Why he wanted to know as much as possible about the different planets and had strange ideas about the influence the moon had on ocean tides.
Yep, xtra has hit the nail on the head. The left is a culturally dead zone, ignorant in both thought and action and capable of doing only manual labor.....
Maybe if the conservatives take back control of this country for any extended period of time, we can pass legislation out-lawing liberal thought?
gogo, don't forget to take a quick swim in that river of denial that you love to take a dip in...
Be strong now, be brave, and keep believing everything that you hear from those great intellectual leaders such as Sharron Angle, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Insanity Hannity and Bill O'Reilly....
Yep, less than 90 days and we get to congratulate Harry Reid for being re-elected to another term as our Senator....
Give'em hell Harry!
Using public money to bailout Unions is a crime. This money should be used for Social security not rewarding union thugs.
El_Lobo
Do Not Appropriate Christian Culture, Action, and assign it to "the liberal left." The Liberal Left preached that Lewis and Clark were spies in foriegn territory. The mapping they did was not "science" but conquest and manifest destiny.
And while you are bemoaning "required reading" why not mention the thousands of pages of convoluted, contradictory regulations from bureucrats in Washingon.. There are laws requiring workers to have copies of those "little red books" in their possession at all times.
Public Education was a Protestant idea. It started with Calvin, not Karl Marx. And freedom of conscience is also CALVIN.
GoGo said, keep bashing the Christians. After 9/11, 90% of battered American came out of the closet and said they were Christians. Battering Christians..is about to end..especially by the ACLU..and other leftist ..and twisting Jefferson into some Liberal Icon..time for a cultural change in this country
El_Lobo
The Left LIES..
According to the Left..
Here is a "unscientific" Catholic Priest (Copernicus 1473-1543) According to the Left, Jefferson was enlightened and vehemently opposed to Priest like this..and specifically wrote the Constitution to keep these ignorant Priest out of the schools under separation of Church and State..Jefferson did not want those "unscientific christians" questioning "settled science" The Left preaches that all western science has been violently opposed by the "ignorant christians." Why preach these lies? Is it just blind hatred of Christianity?
Copernicus is said to be the founder of Modern Astronomy. He was born in Poland,1 and eventually was sent off to Cracow University, there to study mathematics and optics; at Bologna, Canon Law. Returning from his studies in Italy, Copernicus, through the influence of his uncle, was appointed as a Canon in the Cathedral of Frauenburg where he spent a Sheltered and Scademic life for the rest of his days. Because of his Clerical Position, Copernicus moved in the highest circles of power;
Jefferson promoted the ideas of John Calvin and the reformation in Geneva, and he was interested in the ideas of Copernicus and Newton (Newton also wrote on Judaeo-Christian prophecy, whose decipherment was essential, he thought, to the understanding of God)
Yet Jefferson, according the left, was a radical atheist, fighting against religious suppression and christian ignorance to promote the.*ahem*..science?..NO Wait.. ...(the left makes a jog here) lets amend that..Jefferson was a socialist icon fighting christian opiates but..he was promoting colonial piggery..
Well..Lefties..work on it..If you slice and dice it..separate the first part from the second you can have both pieces..and can prove that Jefferson is a socialist icon, a secret hero against ignorant Christian Suppression and..Jefferson was a imperialist capitalist pig..
xtra....
Are you and "crazy Sharron" related? Brother and sister? Two peas out of the same pod?
Get real....Everything I said about Thomas Jefferson was true. I was using a little satire along the way, but Jefferson is a "giant" in our history.
John Calvin is no more than a footnote in our history...
Calvin's importance is probably a 1 on a 10 point scale. Jefferson is a 10 on a 10 point scale..
Those nuts in Texas who are determined to remove all information on Jefferson from their text books are nothing more than neo-nazis'. People who burn books, sooner or later burn people!
Jefferson was a liberal thinker when it came to most things. He was also a deist when it came to religion.
Jefferson, like Ben Franklin, was a product of the "Enlightenment Era." The "enlightenment thinkers" were liberals, not conservatives....
Yep, TJ believe in limited government and he was concerned about the possibility of government taking away the rights and freedoms of the individual, but he would not have been a "backer" of such loons as "crazy Sharron."
Our belief in the concept of "separation of church and state" is a contribution made by Jefferson to our society..
"Freedom of conscience" is not a trait that can be traced to the teachings of John Calvin....That's nonsense!
Calvin created a theocracy in Geneva, Switzerland. In other words, it was "his way or the highway when it came to religious beliefs."
People who disagreed with Calvin were not welcome in Geneva. Many were told to leave....
I don't believe I said that Karl Marx was a believer and supporter of public education.
The followers of Calvin believed in public education, but that idea was centered around the belief that children should learn to read so they could read the Bible.
Very little encouragement of individual freedom or freedom of thought was part of that process...
El_Lobo
That is what I said..Calvin wanted universal literacy so people could read the Bible.
WHAT? The peasants read the Bible? Why..they might argue with the Priests..They might question authority..Those Peasants..who Calvin believed should read the Bible..imagine that..The Word of God..for themselves..and interpret it for themselves..why, they might turn the world upside down and seek truth..and nothing but the truth..
Maybe that is why our modern, liberal education..people are functionally illiterate..and don't have reading comprehension..
The Liberal Left has found a way to ..get those sceptical, questioning, unruly peasants back into the congregation of unquestioning..Government knows best believers....with their mouths hanging open..staring at main stream media preachers like Olbermann and believing every word.
Jefferson, two centuries later promoted the ideas of Calvin and Geneva...and Jefferson was a product of those ideas. Jefferson was a promotor and a product of the Reformation..not a pioneer.
Calvin was the Original..Jefferson was the Copy..
xtra.....
Spin it anyway you choose but you are incorrect with what you have said about Jefferson.
For all practical purposes, Jefferson was a liberal....a conservative on some of his view on government (limited government and individual freedom) but a liberal over-all.
Jefferson's love of science is well documented.
Lewis and Clark documented everything they saw on their expedition into the Louisiana Territory. They sent back various plants and even a prarie dog to Jefferson.
The reason for the expedition was very simple..
We had no idea what we had purchased from Napoleon in 1803. Neither did Jefferson.
Jefferson wanted to know not only the exact size of the new terrority, but what type of terrain was out there... He was interested in the plants, the animals, the weather, & last but not least, the Indian tribes who lived there.
Jefferson, like many Americans of the day, believed that there was a Northwest Passage (river) that could be used to travel from maybe St. Louis to the Pacific Ocean.
Lewis & Clark believed the Missouri River just might be part of that Northwest Passage.....of course, they found out that no Northwest Passage existed.
The Spanish were aware of the expedition by Lewis and Clark and they at one point in time, tried to intercept the expedition and capture Lewis & Clark. It didn't happen but it came close to happening...
Liberals, as a rule, don't bash religion...they do bash religion nuts, however, who try to push a theocracy type government upon the good citizens of this country.
Jefferson was VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO A THEOCRACY!
xtra said..
"Jefferson, two centuries later promoted the ideas of Calvin and Geneva...and Jefferson was a product of those ideas. Jefferson was a promotor and a product of the Reformation..not a pioneer.
Calvin was the Original..Jefferson was the Copy.."
Ha! Ha! Ha! Total nonsense.....total nonsense!
Jefferson was a product of the "Enlightenment Era," not the Reformation.....
Jefferson was a deist, not a believe in Calvinism! List a link or two to validate your statement!
El_Lobo
I am curious
1) If Jefferson wrote the Constitution and it was gospel truth that "separation of church and state" which means no church, all state to the liberals..why doesn't the Constitution state exactly that?
2) Define Theocracy..Calvin understood all government as Assemblies.
I would contend, as Calvin did that all governments are theocracies..This is pure Calvinism:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
It is straight out of Geneva and their theory of Government. Someone posted yesterday the verses in Romans on which it is based
El_Lobo
In the time of Calvin..Jefferson would not have been a deist..nor would he have understood the concept of separation of church and state.
Jefferson is a Product of the Reformation..He was a person IN the enlightenment.
xtra said...
"And while you are bemoaning "required reading" why not mention the thousands of pages of convoluted, contradictory regulations from bureucrats in Washingon.. There are laws requiring workers to have copies of those "little red books" in their possession at all times."
Wow! What in the world are you saying???? Those "little red books?"
I'm not opposed to people reading. I read all the time...I've enjoyed reading pretty much my whole life....
Education is the great "equalizer" in our society. Jefferson knew that....
The Calvinist were not interested in education as a way of promoting individual thought and individual freedom. They wanted their people to be able to read the Bible....not much more!
Calvin created a theocracy in Geneva.........Theocracies aren't big into critical thinking or promoting individual freedom.
The concept of separation of church and state is because of the Sola ..Do you know the Sola's of the Reformation..
No Group or Assembly or Congress or group of men can make a law respecting the establishment of religion..Why? Because religion is established by God..and no man has the right to tell another man what he can or cannot believe or what he can or cannot SAY to or about God..
Calvin believed in a Living God.
El_Lobo
Yes, those "little red books" of regulations that workers are required to purchase and to have in their possession at all times..I suppose you can be forgiven if you haven't read the pounds..tons of regulations having the force and effect of law..but..you are required to know and obey every jot and tittle thereof..so get busy reading those Federal regs..
"the calvinist" were not interested in education as a way of promoting individual thought? They wanted people to be able to read the Bible...and not much more?
That is a very odd statement..
xtra said..
"In the time of Calvin..Jefferson would not have been a deist..nor would he have understood the concept of separation of church and state."
What are you talking about? John Calvin was born in 1509. Jefferson was born in 1743. The Enlightenment Era was a 18th century movement with Jefferson growing up during that time period.....
He read all the enlightenment material that was written by the thinkers of that period...
The Reformation was a 16th century religious reform movement...
You're completely lost when talking about timelines and what happened when....
You're lost...plain and simple!
El_Lobo
All governments are theocracies..I agree with Angle that our government is promoting religion in the schools..You certainly cannot say that the frauds taught as science in our schools are anything other than myths promoted by the State.
You cannot say that taxing alcohol until it prohibitive and thus prohibited is not a government campaign against sin, if sin is defined as ..bad habits.
The theocrats now use *science and *health but the fact remains..morality and ethics are being dictated by government and that is theocracy.
Consider that it is now immoral and illegal to believe that homosexuality may be a bad habit and should not be taught to children..Isn't that a theocracy..because according to government *science..Darwin's god, evolution made homosexuals that way..and it is against the will and law of the natural god to speak out about homosexuality?
Isn't that theocracy?
El Lobo
YOU LOST, plain and simple..
You are a product of the Constitution..you are a member of the post modern period.
NOW..by your reckoning the Constitution was 200 years ago..so it is not part of your "time period"
You are completely lost..200 years of the Reformation ..Jefferson was a member of the Enlightment..which could not have happened without the Reformation...as evidenced by the Muslim world where there the Reformation never happened..If not for the Reformation..you and Jefferson would be..Serfs...Look at Russia in the same era as Jefferson..
El_Lobo...
The reformation did not produce Jefferson..because the Reformation was 200 before Jefferson..?
OK..so Jefferson did not produce or influence modern America because he was 200 years ago..
xtra said...
"No Group or Assembly or Congress or group of men can make a law respecting the establishment of religion..Why? Because religion is established by God..and no man has the right to tell another man what he can or cannot believe or what he can or cannot SAY to or about God.."
Tell that to the rulers of Europe and the various Popes of Europe who ran the show from about the 10th century on....
Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church was the only kid on the block.
The Pope in Rome called the shots. Everyone was a Catholic.
Every ruler/king/emperor that was crowned in Europe from the time of Charlemagne to, almost the time of Napoleon, was crowned by the Pope.
People were burned at the stake for having views that did not go along with canon law...the laws of the church.
Martin Luther would have been burned as a heretic if they could have captured him after he published his ninety-five theses speaking out against the Catholic Church...
Have you ever heard of John Wycliff? Look what happened to Joan of Arc....
Get real!
xtra....
I'm not sure why I'm attempting to discuss anything with you....
You have some very strange ideas if they can actually be called ideas at all...
Jefferson was a product of the "Enlightenment Era." That's what the historians say....that's just not me saying that.
Again, Jefferson was a deist....Plain and simple!
He was NOT a Calvinist....Plain & simple!
Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He leaned heavily upon the works/beliefs of various enlightenment thinkers......particularly John Locke to write the document.
Everything that I have said in my various posts about Jefferson, Calvin, the enlightment thinkers & the Reformation are all very basic points that can be found in most history text books....
The one exception might be what is printed in Texas...
Those people have literally decided to create their own "Brave New World," Texas style...
Maybe you're from Texas? Maybe that's why you and I don't agree on anything?
Its almost lunch time....another time & another place and we can continue this very strange discussion...
El_Lobo
Tell that to the Pope, that group of men cannot tell another man what to believe..(?)
That is exactly what Calvin did..and he did it first...
El_Lobo
Did you learn your history from that high school textbook where is written in one chapter that the English archers were the finest in the world and had defeated armies possessing cannon for centuries but then in the next chapter, the textbook states,, Indians lost to the Europeans because the Europeans had muskets and the Indians had bows and arrows?
I read that textbook too. I read history as original text. And you have some very strange ..albeit orthodox, ideas indeed!
El_Lobo
If you don't believe that Calvin introduced the idea that no man or group of men could establish religion for another man ...then you are not familiar with the Sola...
El Lobo
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Sola Gratia
Sola Cristo
Sola Deo Gloria
xtra....
John Calvin created a theocracy in Geneva. Those that disagreed with Calvin were told to leave or were forced to leave.
Maybe you have no idea what a theocracy is? The government of Geneva walked hand-in-in hand with Calvin and his teachings...
Calvin was determined to do the same thing in his native France. Fortunately he didn't get it done.
Not sure what your story about the English and their long bows have to do with John Calvin, but considering your strange little mind, I'm almost afraid to ask...
High school history books are far from perfect, but with that being said, I will rely upon that information more so that what you come up with...
There's no question that each of the industrialized nations teaches their own brand of history......
In other words, they put their own twist, their own nationalistic view on why something happened, and in the case of war, who was largely responsible for starting a particular war... In other words, who was at fault!
The Japanese now teach in their schools that they were forced to go to war against the United States (bombing of Pearl Harbor...) in World War II because we had forced them to take what we would not sell them....oil, tin, rubber, gasoline!
In this country, we basically teach a "dead white man's view" of history. At the elementary and secondary level, we don't teach any of the "warts of our history." We're almost always the "good guys in white hats."
Is that wrong to do that? I personally think so but I understand why it's done that way...particularly at the lower level!
xtra....
Yes, I'm familiar with the term Sola Scriptura. It's simply theology. It's the belief that the Bible contains all knowledge for salvation and holiness. It was a foundational principle of the Protestant Reformation. It's very much a part of the beliefs held by today's Protestants...
If my knowledge of history doesn't fail me, I believe Martin Luther taught the belief that salvation could be achieved by simply reading the Bible and praying.
That was one of the big reasons he got in trouble with the Catholic Church. They didn't want people staying home and doing only that.
They want them in Church & of course, they wanted their money and wanted to control them.
When Luther translated the Bible from Latin into German, this made it possible for people to do that.....
Very few people could read and write Latin. The Church always told the people what they wanted them to know. They had control over them by doing it that way...
If you couldn't read the Bible, you had to take the word of the leaders in the Church.
After the fall of the Roman Empire, particularly the eastern part of the empire at Rome, the Church became not only the religious part of man's existence but the governmental part as well... In other words, the Church was literally the government.,.....No ruler dared go against the Pope!
Ah..we are finding common ground.
1) The historical timeline is Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment...It is debatable whether the enlightenment could have happened without the Reformation. The Reformation did not happen in Russia and the enlightenment was confined to intellectual discussion among the French educatedelite until the 20th century. Without Calvin..or in 1776 Russia, Jefferson would not have openly published or professed his ideas..That is the a unprovable argument..A nil argument..like how many jobs Obama saved but valid for this instance.
"In other words, the Church was literally the government.,.....No ruler dared go against the Pope!"
Theocracy..
Sola Scriptura -"the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all--that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. That the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself"
YOU can read the Bible and No One Can Make Any Law Respecting the Establishment of Religion..because an assembly of men making a law respecting the establishment of religion ..is in violation of sola scriptura..They are usurping the authority of the scripture..and interpreting it outside of itself.
I will repeat this in case you missed it:
JOHN CALVIN..The First Amendment..is Sola Scriptura affirmed:
Sola Scriptura -"the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is Accessible to All--that is, it is Perspicuous and Self-interpreting. That the Bible Requires No Interpretation Outside Of Itself"
YOU can read the Bible and
No One Can Make Any Law Respecting the Establishment of Religion..
Bcause an assembly of men making a law respecting the establishment of religion ..is in violation of sola scriptura..They are usurping the authority of the scripture..and interpreting it outside of itself.
There are four more Sola..Do you want to see how those are affirmed in the Constitution?
xtra, xtra! Read all about it!
Thumpa, thumpa, thumpa, thumpa, ...