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Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman (left) and Clark County Commissioner Rory Reid announced Tuesday from City Hall a new shared service initiative to reduced costs.
Published Tuesday, April 27, 2010 | 11:58 a.m.
Updated Tuesday, April 27, 2010 | 7:10 p.m.
Sun archives
- Fire union resists move to increase its ranks, reduce overtime costs (4-16-2010)
- Has fire union support become a campaign curse? (4-15-2010)
- County commissioner named in threat on Facebook (4-8-2010)
- County Commission beefs up security after Sisolak threatened (4-7-2010)
- ‘Boot drive’ OT for individual firefighters is unknown (4-4-2010)
- Practice of on-duty firefighters raising money for charity questioned (3-31-2010)
- Fire union goal: Silence Sisolak (3-19-2010)
- Las Vegas firefighters burn up more sick time than other city employees (3-14-2010)
- Clark County firefighters profit from sick leave policy (3-7-2010)
- Commissioner offers pared Metro budget as example for others (2-25-2010)
- ‘Longevity pay’ costs millions in county (12-10-2009)
- Firefighters feeling budget backlash (5-28-2009)
- County, fire union break ice with heated words (5-7-2009)
- Firefighters have perks to give back, if they wanted to (4-29-2009)
Don’t call it “consolidation.” It’s “shared services.”
Whatever you call what they want to do, Las Vegas and Clark County have added fire and rescue to a list of services they are looking to combine to save money.
Targeted in early April, those services are: animal control, business licensing, information technology, parks, television production and purchasing.
During a press conference Tuesday, Rory Reid, the County Commission chairman, said adding firefighters to the mix came about partly because of the reluctance of firefighters to give up any salary or benefits when other unions did so last year.
“It would be a disservice to those who made sacrifices not to point out those who have not,” Reid said at a press conference at City Hall with Mayor Oscar Goodman standing next to him. “I’m talking about firefighters.”
He and Goodman are asking county and city staff to develop suggestions by June. For the fire department, the two talked generally about “sharing” hazardous materials teams, heavy rescue teams, training and vehicle mechanics. They also mentioned building inspectors.
Sources, however, said they more likely meant fire investigators because of tentative plans to consolidate the county’s fire inspectors with the county’s development services.
Overall, the idea is to combine the services to free up firefighters to fill in for other firefighters who call in sick, are on vacation or otherwise absent.
By having those extra firefighters available to fill in at straight pay, the county and city would avoid paying overtime.
Though the two did not talk about specific dollar savings, Commissioner Sisolak, who has called for consolidation of the fire departments and other services, told the Sun he had heard some of the changes would save each government about $1.1 million.
For training alone, Clark County taxpayers paid nine Fire Department employees $1.2 million in fiscal 2009. That’s $937,000 for salary, benefits and overtime, plus $292,000 for contributions to their retirement accounts.
One question that will inevitably arise from the shared services agreement: Is this the beginning of further consolidation between the two municipalities?
Not likely. Sisolak said consolidating city and county police departments to form the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department in 1973 set a bad precedent. When the smoke cleared, negotiators chose the higher of the two salaries from each department for the new department. With average Clark County firefighters salaries, benefits and overtime of $181,000, no one wants a similar result for a combined fire department.
Instead, Sisolak said, if there is a move to consolidate departments he’d like the county to push for “zero-based” budgeting on the collective bargaining agreement.
That means, officials would begin talks at zero—getting rid of decades of perks and bonus pay built into current contracts and starting over with a clean slate.
“We can go in with whatever we want. We can start all over,” Sisolak said. “Sure the unions can object, but it’s gotten so desperate, we have to start looking at it.”
The county is close to finalizing its budget. After filling in some gaps with reserve money and holding open more than 1,000 jobs, the county still needs to cut $57 million from next year’s budget. The cuts are likely to result in the elimination of hundreds of jobs.
Las Vegas, meanwhile, is confronting a shortfall of its own estimated at $70 million for the fiscal year that begins July 1. City officials have said widespread layoffs are likely.
Sounds like a start.
What do the firefighters think? Interested in their opinion, since these articles never tell the whole story.
So they switch shifts. It's just reorganizing the shuffle.
Pathetic.
This is a step in the right direction for all concerned. These specialized units are expensive, but necessary since there is specific training and certification for this such as confined space rescue, etc. Where I was on the east coast, only major Dept's could afford this type of specialization since it is a big ticket specialty. Most of their incidents were responses on mutual aid to communities that lacked these resources. While the average firefighter would have some training to assist at incidents, they would not be proficient at operating the specialized equipment under the SOP's and SOG's. It continues the integration of both Dept's who already interface on a number of calls. What amazes me is Sisolak's objection to what would be the ultimate best solution for everyone using an intergrated Dept for the entire valley. Instead he just wants to re-invent the wheel which will go nowhere in the real world. We need a great fire/rescue system, not just the whipping boy for a politician looking to keep his name out there.
Kind of what it sounds like, sofakingbored, but as long as they aren't being paid overtime wages, it doesn't bother me as much. If they need shifts covered, then it is what it is.
Just an FYI to Sisolak. Your definition of "zero based budgeting" is incorrect. Maybe you should leave the big words to those who are actually educated on the subject. Or better yet, go take a Public Administration class at UNLV. You never know what you might learn.
Indeed, let's hear from the FF involved. If they kick and scream and raise union objections then it probably is a good idea.
kind funny that you have to go back 4 months to get a picture of something that actually burns.
Would firemen costing an average of $100,000 a year be any worse than ones costing $181,000 a year. No Way.
End this fiasco. It starts with public employee unions backing candidates for office and then that elected leader rewarding them with more salary until it is beyond out of control.
Contract out for fire protection and end this disaster.
What bothers me the most about this whole issue is the way firemen abuse sick time during their normal shift and then work for overtime on a scheduled day off. Firemen abusing the system like that need to be weeded out of the dept, its not rocket science...
I agree 100% with Sisolak. Let's just start over at zero, the beginning. I don't care what you call it, Zero based negotiating, zero based contracts, whatever. Good idea.
What a crazy idea! The Clark County, City of Las Vegas, and Henderson Fire Departments all need their own Technical Rescue program. We need to keep these specially trained Firefighters, and their special equipment strategically located throughout the Las Vegas Valley. Clark County started the first Technical Rescue team. Once Las Vegas doubled in size in the last ten years, City Fire Department, and Henderson started their Technical Rescue teams, so they would be able to respond to calls, and increase the chance of survivability.
50 % of the slackers are all we need. Mrss is your hubby a fireslacker??
A critical patient has one hour to get to surgery, this is know is the "Golden Hour". Las Vegas had only one Trauma Center at UMC ten years ago, but now has three. Should we start closing down Trauma Centers?
Dog and pony show.
Cut pay ..cut benefits..cut positions.
While it's obvious the abuse of overtime is a problem with the FD, I don't know that cutting staff is the right way to go. I'm sure all the same whinners on here will be crying when they have to wait for help. I can't wait to see all the cry-babies!
@Serpent-Would it matter if my spouse was and who said I had a hubby? It is ridiculous that politicians throw around terms without knowing the meaning or just using them incorrectly. They like using big words that sound good, but just end up showing their ignorance. Use the terms and words, but use them correctly.
@mrss...
Sorry but the defintion used here although broad is correct. "in zero-based budgeting, every department function is reviewed comprehensively and all expenditures must be approved, rather than only increases." Their definition read "getting rid of decades of perks and bonus pay built into current contracts and starting over with a clean slate." I think they are stating starting on a clean slate rather than continuing entering perks, bonuses into future contracts.
It's a good plan but they should include North Las Vegas FD to save more money. The county and the cities will need to balance their budgets first before any merger so they need to layoff the equivalent number of FF to cover for their deficits. Rory and Oscar need to invite the NLV mayor, the more the merrier.
I am exmilitary, and understand better than most that reducing the number of a specialty team is a very dangerous idea. I believe the Mayor is so blinded by his inability to manage his City that he is now reaching for straws with ideas that not only won't work but will hurt the public safety. I wonder what the good Mayor will say when a large spill occurs within his City and more than just one team is needed. We have to look past the pocketbook people. Is the Mayor also going to reduce my taxes now that my service is reduced?????? I think not.
This is ludicrous. They still make 200k a year. Limit their pay fools. But Rory has them on his pipe though. Rory and his clowns created this mess and now they need to deal with it. Wake up people of your state and say no to Rory and Badman.. The worthless duo has done nothing for your city, county or state.
Like other public agencies, the fire department needs to do a top-down review of personnel and responsibilities. Too many with pay checks off the top, like Oceguera in North Las Vegas who can collect full pay while serving in the state Assembly.
Is a fire chief really worth more than $200K per year for the hours they work? I think not. And if you start a review of the work rules and needs, you might find replacing a chief here or there might get the message out that there is no free lunch, and Oceguera collects a free lunch almost every day.
Do a full audit of his time and pay and you'd save lots of bucks as a start.
PLEASE CONSOLIDATE MILLIONS IN SAVINGS PLEASE PLEASE
GeorgeWashington- MOVE AWAY - we don't want you here. No FF "I" know makes $200,00 a year. And you don't know any either!
Clearmind - I'm not arguing with you, but please tell me your interpretation of what a fire chief does.
The consolidation plan has it's merits and should be investigated more.
ANARCHY- please tell me how you know there is OT "abuse" within the FD. Aside from what you read in the paper!
croc1, a known FF is fighting a losing cause here........just get with the flow, nobody's believing your argument...
Unclegig- Sounds like your "gig" is up. Everyone here is having an intelligent conversation about the issues at hand. Guess that's why we haven't heard much from you. Nice talking to you though. Bye.
It's not consolidating services. They are reducing the services. They are taking away special trained firefighters out of the Clark County.
I never have heard Rory Reid speak before, oh yeah he is running for governor!!!!!!
So Mayor and Commish, we have been wasting money for years? or you just woke up and realized this was an issue? Really?
Please, this is purely a political move that will reduce emergency response teams available for us as your citizens.
Heck we are going to have a new city hall and a vacant, old city hall for years to come. Even the mayor knows, two are better than one.
According to the Sun's 4/16 article... "In 2009, engineers' average compensation, including overtime, was about $131,000, while compensation for a Firefighter I was $55,307 and a Firefighter II was $90,084.". This time it's $181,000, again. Whatever the real number is, there is a reasonable explanation for the high salaries. Obviously overtime is one of the main factors, but keep in mind that when the Sun quotes "average" salaries, they average into total compensation for personnel that are forced to retire early as a result of a career ending medical condition. If you had many good years ahead of you in your career, but were diagnosed with a career ending illness or injury directly related to your service to the community, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect some additional compensation for the hardships you had ahead of you? What if your condition made it impossible to do more than a brisk walk without losing your breath? Do you think that it paints a true picture to add these "salaries" into the "average" firefighter salary? Maybe Joe and Steve are pandering to those that are understandably emotional over these troubling financial times, by skewing the numbers to make a sensational story.
What does Steve know about labor union negotiations anyways? Steve made his fortune suing the County. $20-some million if I remember correctly. He really shouldn't be discussing ongoing contract negotiations as doing so could easily be viewed by an arbitrator as the County's direct effort to negotiate through the media and in bad faith and a direct violation of the current ongoing negotiations...
Continued...Oscar and Reid want to eliminate "redundant" services between the 2 fire departments? Those of you that actually seek the truth in all this media hyperbole can't possibly be fooled by these obvious attempts at misdirection. First, How can you possibly eliminate the very few special units in the entire Vegas Valley, without compromising service to the community? This is LAS VEGAS, entertainment capital of the world, 40 million visitors a year, some of the most expensive real estate in the world. I know most of you don't understand how many people it takes to handle a large emergency, but it's laughable to propose eliminating the haz-mat or technical rescue teams to just one team of each for 2 departments. In 2009, CCFD Heavy Rescue responded to about 1000 incidents. Even if they only responded to 12 incidents in the year, it's simple... When you need the resources of the Heavy Rescue Unit or the Hazardous Materials Unit, there is no alternative. Almost every emergency that the heavy rescue is involved in is time-sensitive. If you happened to be trapped under a collapsed section of the Spaghetti Bowl would you appreciate more that one Heavy Rescue team in the Valley? What if you were trapped in a car that was smashed under a semi truck? What if your children fell into a mine while playing in the desert? Or what if you were a construction worker whose trench had collapsed and was suffocating you with every second that passed, etc. etc. etc. There are plenty of times when a technical rescue team is in use on a multi-hour emergency, while another serious emergency requires the use of another technical team. Whatever the actual emergencies are, these circumstances happen.
Furthermore terrorist specialists have identified Las Vegas as a known target for terrorist extremists. Our entire existence and economy in this valley relies on tourism. What happens if something horrible happens in this valley. In case you didn't know, according to a FoxNews Aug 10, 2004 article...
"When the Justice Department obtained two videos suggesting terrorists had cased Las Vegas casinos, the discussions didn't center on public alerts or heightened security. Rather, authorities worried about the effects on tourism and the casinos' legal liabilities, internal memos show...
...One of the tapes, found in Spain in 2002, shows Al Qaeda's European operatives casing Las Vegas casinos in 1997, engaging in casual conversation that included an apparent reference to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States...
The other tape found in a Detroit terror cell's apartment had eerily similar footage of the MGM Grand, Excalibur and New York, New York casinos -- three hotels within a short distance of each other on the Las Vegas strip with a combined total of 11,000 rooms."
This is just the stuff that the public is allowed to hear about...
Continued... Like it or not the fire department is like an insurance policy. Everyone pays a little tax for firefighting and EMS services and hopefully never needs to utilize these services, but in the event that you do need these services, you have 24/7 access to highly trained professionals that can come and help you with your emergency at a moments notice and be at your side in a few minutes. How much tax? I could go into the actual breakdown, but for time sake, based on the current median home price in Las Vegas of $120,000, a homeowner pays about $7 dollars a month for 24/7 access to fire and EMS services. This information is on the Clark County Assessors website if you'd like to double check my numbers.
If Oscar really wanted to save some money, don't you think that he would cancel efforts to make a mob museum? The Sun reported on Nov 18, 2009 that the Mob Museum was going to cost $50 million dollars. According to this article, the City's shortfall is $70 million, seems like a lot of jobs could be saved by simply eliminating Oscar's personal Taj Mahal. It's unforgivable that in his final term he's fleecing the public for $50 million dollars to build a shrine about him, and gangsters. Don't forget that the Tropicana is already on track to open their own Mob Experience, on the Las Vegas Blvd. Why is Oscar spending $50 million dollars to build a municipal "museum" that is poised to directly compete with an exhibit at the Tropicana? Ego?
The County has similar projects they could stop, but it's more sensational to attack the overtime that firefighters make, even though the County could eliminate overtime if they just hired more firefighters. Tomorrow, if every firefighter didn't volunteer to work overtime, the County would have the same overtime expense, it would simply be filled by personnel that were forced to work under threat of penalty. Is there a job posting for new firefighters on the County's website? Nope.
Don't forget... The County's budget is 6.4 BILLION dollars. The Fire Department's budget is $137 million dollars. Why do you think Steve and now Rory, want you to believe that the CCFD is the cause of all the County's woes? Politics? Juicy sound bites? The Fire Department only represents 2% on the County's Budget. What about the other 98% of the Budget? Could the other 98% have anything to do with our current circumstance?
Don't be fooled. Cutting the Heavy Rescue and Haz-Mat Units would only weaken our already severely understaffed levels.
hey rory...
so you want to be governor pal...
tell you what...
this ain't gonna cut it skippy...
this is small potatoes...
sisolak has it right...
start with zero based negotiations...
you must crush the union...
crush them...
and if they don't like it...
replace them all...
if reagan could do it with air traffic controllers...
we sure as hell can do it with people that hold hoses...
bottom line...
these greedy pig firemen are destroying the community...
no fireman should make more than 75k...
ever...
and yet these clowns average 188k...
that is a crime...
that must end...
right now...
so stop dancing around the edges rory...
grow a spine...
and save the taxpayers a ton of money...
or...
you don't deserve to be governor...
got that skippy...
It's about time !!! RORY REID has approved the firefighters contract for years. Now that everyone is looking he changes course.
WHAT A HYPOCRITE !!
croc1....here is the data from 2 years ago.
http://transparentnevada.com/salaries/20...
Birdie-(I mean Joe)
You are not helping. Spread your hate somewhere else.
YOU ARE WRONG!
Got that SKIPPY!
Bottom Line - The County is 57 million short.
Most departments will give up people to do their part (layoffs).
Since the Fire Department cannot do this, to do THEIR PART, they should reduce salaries and eliminate raises/COLAs for a year or hey, how about just reducing their budget? MAybe they need to get with the LVMPD to see how it is done.
Or do you fire fighters think you are immune from the solution?
Remember these savings have to be permanent and not 12 month temporary, otherwise it will rear its head again next year.
Birdie, Your rhetoric is getting old. If you want a serious debate on here, quit posting like a 12 yr old. You look like a fool! Its not helping your cause for change.
Buddy, Great post with logical sound facts and possible solutions. I dare Birdie to even debate you. You watch, he cant even respond, except to call you skippy and claim for you to be a FF or a Wife of one. Look out, here comes the juvenile uneducated comments from birdie!
"The Fire Department only represents 2% on the County's Budget. What about the other 98% of the Budget? Could the other 98% have anything to do with our current circumstance?"
------------------------------------------
I don't know, why not ask all the County workers that have already been laid off?
Each department has been asked to reduce their budgets by 8%....has the fire department done this? Doubt it.
Yes that is the total revenue, but if you ever took accounting, total revenue is not what is available for general funding. Don't they give you firefighters a free 100% paid college education that you can do while on duty? Oh yeah, they do even though they stopped doing that for every other County employee over a year ago.
Anyway, the general fund budget is only about 1.37 billion. Thus at $137 million, the fire department is 10% of the general fund budget.
We need to right size pay and staffing levels to meet these budget crisis. The pay has been out of control for years. Lets start at zero and negotiate fair salaries for everyone in government so that we can have a sustainable model. This doesnt mean paying people low wages. We need to be fair and pay good wages, but $180K for a fireman? Come on.
vc- Thank you , I agree with you 100%. We should start from zero. But we start at the top with the Mayor, County/City manager etc. Don't you agree?
Buddy, really interesting posts. Actually included data, and not just emotional rants like most of these people.
Based on what I'm hearing from the guys that know, it's important that we keep these specialty teams in place, so they should look for another solution. It's my understanding that the guys that pick up extra shifts earn more than their base wage/salary for that time. Is that correct? If so, why not just eliminate that extra pay? At least until they've made up for all of their own sick time? That would eliminate the "gaming" of the system charges that have been made in the past, right?
I've asked this before but haven't seen anyone respond...based on people that I know, there's a waiting list (of qualified firefighters) to get a job with the department. Economics would suggest that we could reduce the pay until the supply is more in line with the demand. Does anyone disagree with that? If so, please explain.
Croc1, I have no probelm at all with starting at zero and at the top. But you know as well as I do that the various unions (I'm not going to single out yours) would never accept that and after the failed negotiations went to abritation the unions would retain everything that was in the old contract.
I know you will disagree with me, but the only real solution is to re-write NSR-288 so that public employees are not allowed to have unions. If it's good enough for the State it should be good enough for local governments.
We also need to elect officials who will be good stewards of public funds.
I wish people would actually talk to the fire fighters and get there point like I have. First they have met the goals of the city when it comes to cutting the budget, yet the city wants more. They have already given up ther cost of living, which everyone forgets to mention. The main thing that everyone has forgoten is that all a municipality is responsible for is the health, saftey, and welfare of its citizens. Im sorry but there dosnt need to be a mob museum, new city hall, sports arena, or what else Oscar wants untill the core services are taken care of. The ones that are to blame are the county commision and the city councel for giving away the kitchen sink to the unions. If you have followed the comments from most of the unions in the paper it seems that the only problem is that the municipalitys keep changing there mind on what they want or they refuse to negotiate 2+2=4 last time I looked even though there are lots of differnt ways to get there. The city and county have constantly changed there figures and keep dwelling on decreased revenue, and saying look at the private sector. Have you been on the strip lately its packed, and if you follow the national news everything is on the way up. They say that property taxs are down, yet I still pay the same I did last year. If the banks that own the repos arnt paying there taxes then I suggest we go after them. Also there should be a closing of the tax loopholes for mining and gaming, they arnt going to go any where. The city and county need to stop writting checks and then forcing there employees to take cuts to pay for them. If you dont have the money dont build new parks, roads, buildings. If these 'leaders' were in the private sector they would all be fired for there actions. And for all of you that want to privatize everything think about this, a private company is responsable to its share holders while pubilc agencys are responsable to us. Try calling AMR,UPS,or any private company and getting something changed,they'll tell you to go somewhere else if you dont like it. Then call one of your public representitives at least they will look into things and possibly change them. The only true way to solve all these problems that we face is to cutt the fluff, and truly negotiate with labor. That is the only way things will turn out for the good. If consolidation of the Fire Departments is good for the community then so be it but if its not good for the citizens and only the bond rating for city hall then I think Oscar can pay for City hall if he so badly wants an new one. No one has ever answered the question what is wrong with the old one? Kinda funny that how much the city says they are in the hole is how much city hall costs........thinks that make you go hummmmmm.
Do they think this will get people off their backs about the ENORMOUS salaries the fire and police are currently getting. I DOUBT IT !!!
The pressure to REDUCE salaries of these two departments hasn't even started, who are they kidding. They are THE HIGHEST in the country,why?
REDUCE their numbers and reduce their salaries and the state will turn those red $$ numbers into black $$ numbers...think about it
Over staffed, over payed--CUT pay and positions 30%, enough with the bs!
Starting at zero, starting at the top is fine with me. Lets also make sure these negotiations are open to the public.
Here is where you can find a copy of the CCFD contract on the Sun website. Pay particular attention to Article 2, paragraph 2.
http://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/...
To Vegasresdent......
"Since the Fire Department cannot do this, to do THEIR PART, they should reduce salaries and eliminate raises/COLAs for a year or hey, how about just reducing their budget? MAybe they need to get with the LVMPD to see how it is done."
FYI....FF have not had a COLA for the last 2 years (City FD). The city FD has cut it's budget below what the city manager asked for. Funny you should mention getting with LVMPD.....they are giving up a whole 1% and eliminating postions that were never filled in the first place! TAXPAYERS HAVE BEEN FUNDING VACANT POSITIONS FOR YEARS!!!! Where did all that money go? Not one LVMPD employee is getting laid off, nor are they having their salaries reduced.
So I totally agree with you. FD should do EXACLTY what LVMPD did. I'm sure FF's would love to have the same contract as the cops, it's a much better one! Funny how Metro's budget is over $500 million which is more than both fire depts combined, but they are giving up the least. They have not reduced their budget by 8%.
I fully support cops in this valley and believe they earn every dime and should not have their wages reduced. But it is simply unfair to hold one group of employees responsible for balancing a budget when they are a very small part of it. All public service employees should be asked to take pay reductions, not just a select few.
All public employees have been asked, and the only group that hasn't made a real effort to find a compromise has been CCFD. Try again.
This story didn't even get printed. See what happens, Joe, when you don't include a picture of Sisolak?
hey buddy, the terrorist you refer to are the firemen not the arabs. a pox on them all for their unbridled greed.
kurtz, that was uncalled for. When it comes down to it, the county has idiots for negotiators. Beyond that, we elected the idiots who approved this contract, and the idiots in Carson City who wrote NRS-288 in the first place.
Is the CCFD union being unreasonable? Yes. But it was our elected idiots who made it possible to start with.
Read the contract and look at the pay scales in appendix F, it is very clear that OT is out of control. Also look at the cost of benefits and who pays for what. That contract is a recipie for disaster that has come true.
Look at who signed that contract on behalf of the County and then tell me if you want that person as your governor.
boftx- Hello again my friend, hope all is well with you and yours.
I would like to say something that is not going to be very popular, but here goes anyway.
1.) Are vegas valley FF's paid too much? I believe we are above the national average. But in Vegas we do not roll up the sidewalks at 1:30 am like every other city. We are a 24 hour a day town, so we work more than the national average also, (proved by Vegas stations being the busiest in the nation every year). So we should get paid more than the rest.
2.) Some of our people do have boats, jet skis, trailers, etc. But that doesn't mean that all comes from our salaries. For example my wife works in real estate. She made 3 times what I made and drove a Mercedes (until recently). I didn't want her to buy it for the same reasons that are happening now. Public perception.
Lets look at some of the other things going on that could be cut. Did anyone know that one of the bids to furnish the new city hall is $45 million. Where do you think that money is coming from? Oscar Goodman is doing exactly what he planned. Pit the public against each other and no one will be monitoring his ridiculous pet projects. We need to smarten up and start looking at these politicians to balance this budget.
What do you guys think? $50 mil on a Mob Museum that a strip hotel has already stated will open one up.
kurtz,
You are a scary and unstable person. Stay away from me and my family.
hello croc, and I will call you friend, too. There are about 5 people who post on this site that I would invite to a BBQ and you are one of them.
Tell me, are you a member of CCFD or one of the others? It doesn't matter on a personal level, but I will say that the other departments appear to be somewhat more flexible.
Yes, it is quite possible that our elected officials have their own agenda. Be that as it may, we all suffer right now and it is not popular to be seen as feeding off the difficulties of others.
Are FF overpaid? I will be honest and say no if there was no OT involved. I took a long look at appendix D, E and F of the CCFD contract, especially at levels 69 and 71. I have some issues, but not nothing serious so far as base pay goes. There are other areas of the contract that bothers me a great deal more.
I am not a union member and have never been one and I hope I never will be (and at my age it's damn unlikely). But I am taken aback by what appears to be pure greed on the part of some union members who would rather hang on to as much as they can at the expense of jobs for their union brothers and sisters. To me, that betrays everything a union stands for.
croc, even if I accept that your wife's income is significant and contributes greatly to your quality of life (more power to you on that), there are simply too many examples of others to believe that is the case everytime. There are simply too many reports about high amounts of OT pay to discount.
CCFD is tarnishing the image of all Las Vegas area FF's and that is not a good thing. It has reached the point that whatever the truth really is, even other unions are raising an eyebrow at what is going on.
croc, I should have said "even though I accecpt ..." instead of "even if I accept ..." in that next to last paragraph. I did not mean to imply I doubted what you said.
So boftx, what you're saying is you don't have an issue with a ff's base salary?
No, I don't. I have an issue with how a reasonable base pay can baloon into double or triple that amount thanks to OT. That indicates to me that there is serious mis-management, fraud, or a combination of both.
I also believe that salary is exactly that, a rate of pay that does not entitle one to OT.
Okay, but how do you figure the firefighter's have anything to do with OT? Why doesn't the city just hire more people if OT is such an issue? That's what the unions have been asking for. If nobody voluntarily signed up for OT, firefighters would be forced to work. You shouldn't have an issue with firefighters you should have an issue with the city and county.
I do have an issue with them, that should be plain from my earlier posts. But I also have an issue with my fellow citizens who do not appear to recognize that we are in this together and have to survive no matter what our elected idiots do.
Anyone who is familiar with my posts, and I believe you are, should know that I am a libertarian who believes in enlightened self-interest. What I see in our elected officials and union leaders is nothing but greed, ulterior motives, and stupidity.
I apologize for not following your previous posts. I guess I'm just confused because you say that your issue is with OT yet you are upset with the union leaders. Union leaders have nothing to do with OT. The firefighter's have offered to give more than LVMPD yet they're the ones getting bashed by commenters and the newspaper and Mr. Sisolak.
future_RN, there is more than one FF union involved here. I know that the North Las Vegas FF have made concessions, and I think I read that the City of Las Vegas FF have done the same, but the Clark County FF are another story. The only concession they offered, which was quite some time ago, was about security fences around the stations, and if you read the contract you'll find a clause stating that was something that was already under the Council's control. (On page 121, Letter of Agreement between IAFF local 1908 and CC, NV, Station Security, paragraph 5).
Neither side, the County or the IAFF, comes to this with clean hands in my opinion.
So, can anyone tell me what exactly the LVMPD ended up taking in concessions?
To any FF's out there:
How are FF's selected and does the community have any say in who gets hired? The citizens should be involved in who serves them..Whatcha think??
boftx,
I do not work for the county, but rather for the city. And the OT thing seems to be the major rub as far as salaries go. The obvious is to hire more ff"s, seems simple right. Well I may be wrong, but to me it is just that simple.
I still believe this whole finger pointing mess is a smoke screen for other spending issues that are more outrageous than anything we have discussed here. Our politicians need to be turned inside out and held accountable for their decisions. All these millions of dollars going to this mob museum, the new city hall ($45 million just to furnish it), c'mon. They aren't even trying to hide it, it's all right out in the open.
But I will still take whatever salary cut we need to take and be fine with it. It just pisses me off that these liars Goodman, Fretwell, Sisolak, are getting their way.
croc1- yes it is definitely way above the national average. As far as being the busiest each year, the majority of those calls are medical, are they not?
Hiring more ff creates more jobs, get people working. It will reduce the need for ot, which makes the wages too high. So it seems we should hire more ff, and put in place in the contracts provisions that will prevent the abuse of ot and sick pay.
unsilent -
Maybe you can clear a few things up for me? Does it matter if a majority of these calls are medical? Don't they still have to respond? What exactly is OT and sick pay abuse? I'm confused.
Business 101
It is cheaper to pay employees overtime, than hiring new employees. This is because benefits make up a large percentage of their pay. None of the OT will be factored in, for retirement, just base pay!
Clark County has 1,952,040 residents, and had 36,351,469 visitors last year.
Clark County firefighters salaries, benefits and overtime of $181,000.
Clark County residents pay $10.78 a year for the services of the Clark County Fire Department, as that too much?
Clark County Residents pay only .09 cents a year for the Clark County Fire Department. It would be nice, if no one ever needed their services, but I am glad we have them in case of an emergency.
unsilent majority-
I think I see where you are going with this, and yes most calls are medical, 911 medical dispatch emergencies. It makes no difference if it is a fire , medical, hazmat, technical rescue, they are all responded to in the same manner, emergencies.
Now if your thinking private ambulance can handle all the medical calls, lets talk about that.
These are good, well qualified people. I'm not sure what they make, so lets say $5 hour. $5 an hour is less than what FF's make. So let the privates handle the medical calls and fire dept. stick to fires, therefore reducing the number of FF's and lowering the budget. Am I close?
Fine, so AMR handling all EMS and the FD staff has been reduced by half. Now. AMR decides they deserve more money for taking all the calls in the city. You will be paying the same as you are now. You think our unions strong arm? Wait until the privates decide to strike, now what.
AMR has gone on strike before in other cities. They almost went on strike last year in Las Vegas. Firefighters can not strike. A paramedic form a private ambulance company makes around $70,000 a year. Thats for working a 160 hours a month. A Firefighter toped out Firefighter makes almost $80,000 for working 240 hours a month. Both medics have option to work overtime.
Providing EMS is what firefighters do, thats part of being a firefighter. One of the many duties that they do.
I really don't think that privates want to change anything other than for it to be how it has always been. Duel response, private transports public goes back to do whatever it is they do and serve their community areas. Having a Rescue at Summerlin dropping off and a call comes into that rescues area it pulls from the next station and if that station gets a call it pulls from the next closest station. Many rescues out of there home area. As for consolidating services, I can see how having one training center can be good. At a multi alarm fire where city and county are both called on for resources, there would be no difference in how command works and they would all be familiar with each others apparatus. I think for hazmat and Heavy rescue combining resources such as training would be good. They could train together. I have seen Heavy 21 in cities area responding to calls so they already work together. The Los Angeles County FD was once several different entities now they are LACFD. why can't it all be CCFD with the city giving money toward manpower and equipment. For that matter, the County is huge. NLFD HFD LVFD could all be consolidated into CCFD with each city municipality paying into it. Oh....That wouldn't work....Too many chiefs. I like the idea of a Unified Fire District.
It is interesting how the politicians can shift blame for their own budgetary blunders and get away with it. If the media would finally do their jobs by investigating the real issues instead of printing whatever they are force fed by Reid, Goodman and Sisolak; the public might get a clearer picture. Let me make a couple of points:
1) FF Contracts, are documents that are negotiated between FF Unions and their City/County Administrations- (Council and/or Commissioners). Whatever is in the document was negotiated and is the responsibility of all parties. Council members and commisioners cannot claim ignorance on something they had to approve. If they do, they are either mentally challenged or liars. (Example of a Sisolak momment: I didn't know that firefighters did boot drive while on duty.) How can the media allow Sisolak to make a dumb comment like that and not call him on it?
2) Overtime- OT, is used by the City/County Administrators to cover for the vacancies of personel that are deemed essential for providing important services. It has been determined to be cheaper than to hire additional personel. For the politicians and media to vilianize the FF's for agreeing to work the extra hours is outragious. The politicians can instruct the City/County managers to order the Fire Chief's to eliminate all OT. But the firefighters can actually lose their jobs if they refuse to work the overtime. The FF's already work an average of 56hrs per week. Working OT can increase that time away from family tremendously.
Why is Reid, Goodman and Sisolak stirring the crap up again? I know that some of the Valley's FF Unions are officially in contract negotiations, but their meetings have been delayed time and time again. It is quite simple, if the City/County does not have the money to pay, the Unions cannot expect to get an increase.... Why do they want to extend this so called crisis??
Lets push for one large Fire Department!
Help me out here croc1, I have heard base pay ranges something like $21 p/h to $28 p/h. Which given a normal work week sounds fine to me, I'd go so far as to say even underpaid....given a 40 hour work week. However, it seems the way the schedules are set, it is set up to increase base pay about $20k over a normal work week.
Then, upon looking at transparentnevada, it seems most ff take in an additional $20-$30k per year in ot. I am keeping benefits out ot equation because thats a whole different thing. I wasn't looking up any of the top guys, just normal ff listed in the middle of the 934 pages.
Getting the base pay of $80k due to the schedule, plus another $30k (almost 50% of their income) in ot. It seems based upon boftx that the contract is set up to make sure the ff are making a good amount in ot.
I go back to what I said earlier, hire more ff and either eliminate or cap the ot.
The contracts need to be re-worked. Start from zero, with all positions, not just ff. I am all for it.
No one really has a problem with what firefighters make. They have problems with the firefighters who are working OT, an making an extra $20k-$30k a year. It cost less to pay the firefighters OT, than hire more of them. A lot of you would rather pay more money on taxes to hire more firefighters to stop OT. Sisolak said on face to face" He would rather have 20 Firefighters making $100k a year, than 10 making $200k a year". I am not sure how that saves the Clark County money. It's going to cost more to pay for the extra benefits for the 10 firefighters.
We should cut 50% of all County personnel, and make the rest work OT. Once the remaining 50% are working all the OT, we can cry they make too much money, and ask for pay reduction. Lets put all of them on $100k salary , and make them work 400 hours a month! This will save a lot of money. Any Firefighter who makes $200k a year, is working 400 hours a month.
That includes benefits
unsilent_majority
Your right about the amount of OT, no one is arguing that. Your also right about hiring more FF's to eliminate OT.
But again I will state. Las Vegas Mayor, City Manager, and City Counsel "asked us", they came and asked us to "step up" and work more OT. This will "save" the taxpayers money! Remember, they actually asked us to "step up" and work more.
We were told by working more we would be helping the taxpayers of our city. ----"HELPING THE TAXPAYERS OF OUR CITY."
Can you see our frustration, we do because we are asked, now we are being ridiculed for doing by the same people who asked us to help.
What the hell are we supposed to do then?
I would rather have no OT by just paying a straight salary. You work however many hours it takes. That's what I have done for 95% of my adult life.
Before the screaming starts, I would also want to know what staffing levels are needed to improve job safety and reduce the likelyhood that personnel would be called upon to exceed a normal workload. I could also see a need to determine a realistic salary based on that staffing level. In other words, quite a bit of math needs to be done. But this could work if people want it to.
One of the reasons for a 24hr shift, I think, is to reduce the probability that a FF will be on a call when the shift ends, resulting in OT. It could that simply adjusting the shift start times could make a big difference.
unsilent, I'm not sure what your trying to say about a 40 hour work week versus a FF's 56 hour work week. But consider this... FFs work 16 hours above a 40 hour worker, at straight time, before they earn a single penny of OT. That's 832 hours per year (2912 total hrs) above the 40 hour worker (2080 total hrs) before a FF earns a single penny of OT. At the lowest FF rate/hour the OT portion would be $8.83/hr x 832 hrs = $7346 of OT worked, but not compensated for.
If we're going to exclude benefits, the only fair way to discuss wages are hourly rates. You say that FFs are getting the base pay "due to the schedule". Your right...but the base pay isn't just given away because FFs are good people, the FFs work those hours. The OT pay isn't a freebie either. FFs are working ridiculous amounts of hours to earn the extra income. If the County cared about the longevity, mental and physical health of their first responders you would think that they would hire more FFs so the existing pool would not have to volunteer for the extra work. Don't forget, if FFs don't volunteer they are forced to work under threat of penalty.
FFs already work 56 hrs/week. the ones you reference making 20-30k extra are probably averaging around 80 hrs/week. 80 hours a week!...
Continued...
Here's some facts about hourly wages...
Hourly rate for a CCFD Firefighter is $17.65/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Engineer is $28.38/hour
Hourly rate for a CCFD Captain is $31.92/hour
Hourly rate for a Republic Services Residential Driver is $22/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher is $27.24/hour
Hourly rate for a CCSD Teacher with 5 years experience is $31.79/hour
Hourly rate for a LVMPD Police Officer II is $29.36/hour
Hourly rate for a LVMPD Police Sergeant is $36.71/hour
Teachers start out making $10/hour more than FFs.
Garbage truck drives make $4.5 more/hour.
Nurses? Cops? Plumbers? Electricians? etc. etc.
You mention Boftx and the contract...Boftx has indicated that there are things in the contract that he/she doesn't like, but I don't remember Boftx saying "set up to make sure the ff are making a good amount in ot". However, since you mention the Local 1908 contract, I'd like to cite some of the language in the contract...
From Article 33, Section 1..."Clark County Human Resources shall have full responsibility for the design, development, administration, and security of entry level and promotional examinations".... Furthermore, from Article 33, Section 7..."The County shall maintain an active list of Fire Fighter/Paramedic I eligibles, by conducting examinations for this classification on a regular basis."
If you hire more FFs the existing pool of FFs will have fewer opportunities to volunteer for or be forced to work OT. OT hours would be taken away from the existing pool and dispersed across new hires. The County, not the FFs and not the Union, have the ability to hire new FFs anytime they want. Does the County have a job announcement for new FFs? Nope. Actually the last test for new FFs was 2-3 years ago.
It's so simple... If you want to reduce the total compensation that FFs make... Hire more FFs.
Just think, if the County could save all that OT money maybe they could use it to save jobs? Or maybe they would spend millions on building a 2900 acre shooting park, even though there are numerous private gun ranges all over the valley and endless public lands outside the valley where firearms can be discharged. Or, maybe they would spend millions to build a new swimming pool at the Hollywood Community Park, complete with "beach-style entry with two waterslides, a lazy river and a 17,000-square-foot pool deck", etc. etc.
Hopefully the former.
Mob Museum --$50,000,000
Furnishings for new city hall--$45,000,000
Having a mayor who actually cares about the people of his city -- Priceless!
Nice legacy Goodman --- Bankrupt Las Vegas!
Buddy, I have stated in previous comments on other stories that it appears to me that the contract encourages the practice of paying OT instead of hiring more, that would explain the reference.
For what it's worth, I am a 56yr old male.
I am still trying to work out all the costs associated with benefits. That is the standard argument used to justify paying OT instead of hiring more FF. And of course the substantial cost of training.
You and I have had discussions in the past, and I hope you recognize that I want to keep them cordial even though we may disagree on various issues.
boftx-
I don't know what the cost of hiring and training would be either. But I don't think any of it matters anymore. If we resolve one issue , they will find something else to publicize.
I find it hard to be live that these politicians would state at a news conference about merging divisions or anything without knowing how much it will cost or save. They could not give any data to support it, it's like they thought it up on the way to the podium.
I firmly believe these things are just smoke screens until it's too late to turn back on the other money spending issues.
Buddy, I'm enjoying your posts. But, from what I understand, firefighters have those long shifts that include a lot of down time for sleep, exercising, etc. Teachers, on the other hand (again, based on what I've been told), don't log the "overtime" they work when they're at home grading papers. Also, and I'm not knocking anyone here, but the reality is that the prerequisites/training to becoming a teacher are different than that of an entry level firefighter.
Those hourly wages don't give a very accurate picture. Like someone else said, I've earned a base salary my entire professional career, and I don't know if I've ever worked as little as 40 hours/week (outside of vacation). I never cry about it, but I definitely criticize other people that complain about every extra minute that they work. As I said before, my understanding is that there's a waiting list of qualified people that want to become firefighters. If the market allows for the county/city to reduce pay/benefits, especially in these economic times, then they need to do so. And no, I'm not ignoring the fact that there's plenty of waste in the government, but right now I'm just addressing this issue.
wow, watching face to face right now, and it sounds like Goodman and Reid never even consulted the firefighters (unions, chiefs, etc.) about their little plan. Just a political show. Such a joke if true.
croc, you and I both know that conditions won't change until we can trust our elected officials. I can't tell you how frustrated I feel right now because it seems no matter who we elect they never listen to anyone except those who can provide them with the resources to win the next election. Term limits haven't helped at all, they just look at the next office they can run for.
I know you do your job because you have a desire to help people as well as make a living. I also know the rush you feel when you beat back the monster and not just contain it. You, like me, would do your job for damn near free because you love it.
Sorry to ramble on so. It just seems that no matter how good the discussions might be here, no matter how much we try to understand, we're just pissing into the wind since the real powers that be (both government and union) won't read this or listen to their constituents.
botfx-
I couldn't have said it better myself!
Boftx, I understand. It's not personal. I do give my comments an editing before posting, but as you said... its frustrating, and as such sometimes it spills over. We're not gonna agree on everything, that's okay. Debate is healthy.
improveLV, I really don't mean to discount the hard work that teachers do, or garbage men for that matter. But your right about the whole picture. There's so many factors that go into "total compensation", as well as the cost to the employee of any field. Obviously, I feel FFs base rate is reasonable. I mention hours not to complain, but merely to explain my stance.
Is there a list of qualified FF candidates? Whatever list the County had would be severely depleted by now. The truth is that although thousands apply, only a couple hundred make the final candidate list. Even fewer get offered the opportunity, and even fewer can successfully make it through the training without resigning.
Hey Boftx, I did some checking on your suggestion of NRS 288 regarding no OT for salaried personnel. Turns out that when you hire folks on a salaried-based pay (no OT) you end up paying more....Salaried employees are usually paid MORE due to: their degrees/certifications, and "extra" hours (over the standard 40) known to be worked. If we pay FF salary-only (not hourly) we'll pay more on straight pay.
Food for thought-
The rest homes are full of retired teachers living into their 70's, 80's and 90's.
The life expectancy of a firefighter is less than 10 years past retirement.
Other states allow an employee to be "exempt" based on pay being a given amount of minimum wage, usually 2 or 3 times. I haven't found that provision in NV law, but that oould be changed.