Facebook
Fark
Digg
Reddit
Stumble
A view of the Cosmopolitan under construction just north of MGM Mirage’s CityCenter project on Friday, March 6, 2009.
Friday, April 9, 2010 | 2:01 a.m.
Sun Topics
Sun Archives
- Cosmopolitan on Strip to open mid-December (4-7-2010)
- How much will CityCenter slash its condo prices? (9-11-2009)
- Get 'em while they're cold (8-15-2009)
- CityCenter condo prices not bending to market (5-21-2009)
- Robin Leach, others sue Cosmopolitan (2-14-2009)
- Condos struggle in icy market (2-6-2009)
- Units aren't closing so Trump says: Rent 'em out (1-24-2009)
- Trump Tower’s shift to apartments could become trend (1-23-2009)
- Harmon condo cancellation helps some, hurts others (1-16-2009)
- Promises unkept? Condo buyers sue (11-14-2008)
- Strip’s vaunted condo-hotels losing their luster (5-20-2008)
The Cosmopolitan has given new hope to real estate investors desperate to get refunds on deposits for overpriced condos on the Strip.
In the first class action lawsuit settlement of its kind on the Strip, the long-delayed 2,995-room megaresort now projected to open in December is giving major refunds to people who had signed up to buy 1,495 of its condo-hotel units. They’re getting roughly 62 percent of their deposit money back, an average of more than $120,000 for each unit after attorney fees are paid.
The settlement has drawn the attention of a swarm of condo and condo-hotel buyers as well as real estate agents, attorneys and industry experts because lawsuits against other condo developers are in the works. Investors say they were misled by zealous sales pitches during the pre-recession years of real estate euphoria in Las Vegas.
The Cosmopolitan settlements — higher than some recent offers extended to frustrated CityCenter buyers — could establish a precedent in Las Vegas, real estate experts say. Attorneys representing about 150 buyers of residential units at CityCenter say the settlements have given their clients hope that their laundry list of concerns will be addressed by the resort’s managing partner, MGM Mirage.
The settlements, the last of which were approved this week, come as MGM Mirage begins closing escrow on condos at Mandarin Oriental and Vdara. The closing process for Veer, twin condo towers at CityCenter’s core, is expected to begin next month.
In recent days, some CityCenter buyers have received letters from MGM Mirage offering to let them out of their contracts and to return 25 percent of their deposit money.
One man who signed a purchase contract for a $1 million condo-hotel unit at Vdara in 2006 told the Sun he plans to reject MGM’s offer and fight the company for the entirety of his nearly $200,000 deposit.
He alleges MGM Mirage didn’t deliver residential amenities, such as grocery stores, dry cleaners and pharmacies, within the resort complex.
“The whole idea of what I was sold has changed radically,” says Eric, who would not give his last name. “This is not a city within a city, with the normal amenities you would expect. You can’t just walk down from your unit and buy a bag of groceries.”
He said he would probably accept a deal similar to what Cosmopolitan buyers received, however.
“Given the economy and the way things have gone for (MGM Mirage) and us, that seems a fair alternative, from my perspective.”
Many purchase contracts for high-rise projects across Las Vegas note that developers aren’t liable for representations made by salespeople and that details of the developments are subject to change. Some of them, including those at CityCenter, also limit the scope of their influence to the condo units up for sale.
“Buyers signed a very detailed contract spelling out the obligation of both parties,” MGM Mirage spokesman Alan Feldman says. “We are fully in compliance with each and every term of those contracts.”
But these contracts don’t absolve developers of all liability, attorney Mark Connot contends.
“When you make numerous representations that you don’t hold to, there are going to be problems,” he says.
Connot and another lawyer, Cami Perkins, are representing the buyers of Mandarin, Vdara and Veer units at CityCenter.
Although those CityCenter condo buyers’ motives may be similar to those of their Cosmopolitan peers, their grievances are different. The Cosmopolitan buyers’ main complaint was the length of time needed to finish the project, according to the lawsuit they filed last year.
Connot says many of his clients are citing concerns about construction defects uncovered at the Harmon and Veer towers. The company has rebuffed buyers’ requests for a document testifying to the safety of CityCenter buildings, Connot says.
Their concerns have been magnified by last month’s lawsuit filed by CityCenter’s general contractor, Perini Building Co., against CityCenter for money the contractor says is owed in the wake of a multitude of design changes that caused the resort to go billions over budget. MGM Mirage is expected to countersue over construction problems at CityCenter’s Harmon, a hotel tower that was shortened by half and that remains unfinished after inspectors found that the upper floors were structurally flawed.
Feldman says construction problems at Veer have been resolved, and flaws at the Harmon, which remains unoccupied, are being addressed. He dismissed the other criticisms of CityCenter as disingenuous claims fueled by “law firms trolling for business.”
“CityCenter is an extraordinary development. We believe the value is exceptional,” he says. “We’re in regular touch with our buyers and are providing options so they can close.”
Closing of the purchases at Mandarin began in January, and the closing process at Vdara began less than a month ago.
As of Thursday afternoon, 31 of Vdara’s 1,495 units had closed escrow at prices ranging from $370,000 to $871,000, according to Clark County recorder records. At Mandarin, 24 of 225 units have sold at prices ranging from $1.05 million to $7 million.
People who put down deposits but have not closed at CityCenter have various demands that will only be cured by money, their attorneys say. Several clients are willing to close on their units but at deeper discounts than the 30 percent price cut offered in the fall, Connot says. Others want out of their contracts and want their deposits back.
The Cosmopolitan settlement is not the only reason CityCenter is finding it difficult to get many takers for its 30 percent discount, however. Condo prices continue to drop.
An investor report by Union Gaming Group in January stated that the average square-foot price of recently built condo units in high-rise and mid-rise towers in Las Vegas is down 58 percent from the market peak and down 45 percent from when the units first began to close. Square-foot prices at condo-hotel towers, a product of the real estate bubble, are down 71 percent from the market peak and down 56 percent from when closings first began, the report says.
So even with a 30 percent discount, CityCenter condo buyers would still be paying 172 percent to 344 percent of average market prices in Las Vegas, according to the report.
MGM Mirage executives counter that CityCenter — a unique development with a high-end collection of hotel and retail brands — commands a premium price.
And so the fight continues.
Perkins says her firm, Hutchison & Steffen, first contacted MGM Mirage’s attorneys in January when Mandarin buyers received letters notifying them of closing dates for their units. The law firm, Perkins says, told the company that buyers were not obligated to close their units because MGM Mirage did not deliver them as promised.
More than two months later, MGM Mirage has sent default letters to some Mandarin condo purchasers. Some of the buyers, Connot says, are people who refuse to close on their units in the hope of getting either their deposits back or a price discount closer to 50 percent.
So now the bloodbath begins. Innocent buyers cheated and lied to by greedy, corrupt developers and real estate agents. MGM/Mirage also takes the blame for not delivering and making good on their promises for the amenities and the concept that CC is a "city within a city" It's enough to give you nausea . This is where the real battle lines are being drawn. The unfortunate thing here is that EVERYONE LOSES!!
lied to by real estate agents?
huh?
did they promise you a date with jessica alba or something?
how did they LIE to you?
put on your big boy pants. no real estate agent LIED to you.
people bought these things thinking they would double in value, that's YOUR greed, not a real estate agent's greed.
Oh I forgot.. stevem is a real estate agent. stevem what do you call selling someone something you know from your experience for a fact to be overvalued ? fibbing? no I call it outright lying and taking advantage of the money grab..
nothing is over-valued if someone pays for it at that price.
why is real estate any different?
if suddenly today a big mac was $17.00...would you buy it?
no? = it's "over-valued".
yes? = it's priced EXACTLY what it's worth.
how do i know something is "over-valued"?
please explain how in 2004 i was going to know what the market would be in 2008?
should i also know next week's powerball numbers?
should i also know who will win the superbowl this year?
and if all these condos WOULD have doubled in value...i get a funny feeling people wouldn't be looking to "blame" their realtor.
What? The Brooklyn Bridge was not available?
Looks like plzzshop09 is looking for some free advertising...
This is not the only part of the country seeing these same issues with contractors over promising and under delivering.You will find these same issues along the Gulf Coast.Looks as though City Center and the Cosmopolitan have a tremendous amount of condos for sale.With the amount of debt they owe on the construction costs you would think that City Center would be more willing to work with the poetential buyers who have deposits on their condos.Cosmopolitan seems to want to maintain a positve image in being a company who is easy to get along with to any future buyers of their condos.It looks to me once again City Center/MGM is shooting itself in the foot and their condos remain empty and is cutting into their business(give you not that much buisness)and their reputation is self destructing itself with their ways.Within the next year I will be in the market for a condo and have been watching the strip condo prices and evaluating managment and also condos just off the strip.I have found thus far thatpries arereally good at some of these resorts but I found City Center is very over priced.
now if they are not willing to work with those who have somewhat committed to a purchase How are they going to treat me if I bought and have issues with something.No Thank You!You would think they would work with people to fill the condos wwhic will generate not only income from the sale but also generate buisness in the rest of the resort.Once again this exposes MGM/M's customer service attitude across the board.They have the attitude we are one of the Big Boys in town and we can do what we want and the consumer will have to accept it.Well MGM us customers do not have to accept it and alot will not accept it.
stevem said:
and if all these condos WOULD have doubled in value...i get a funny feeling people wouldn't be looking to "blame" their realtor.
Yea, they would be patting them selves on the back and telling each other how smart they are.
Growup...and accept responsibility for YOUR decision.
stevem :
That's one way to rationalize it, however it doesn't wash with me. I'm not saying that real estate agents are to blame for the crash, I do however charge them as accomplices. I was one of the smarter people when during the boom, various real estate agents were trying to get me to sign the bottom line and were not even interested in what I did for a living, or what my yearly income was, to know that something was amiss, and walked right out the door. Sure the buyers who fell for all the new Cosmo Vegas Hype were idiots, however there were promises made to these people which have been broken, and they deserve a FULL refund.
A full refund... come on.
Like you, they should have seen the same things you saw. No one held a gun to their head and made them sign the bottom line.
It was GREED, plain and simple
I will acknowledge, there was some conspiricy going on between the real estate agents and the mortgage brokers to get the people qualified, but the buyer did sign the contract.
I am surprised at Alan Feldmans response. There have been numerousn changes to the condos as well as fraudulent cover ups in the structural deficiencies to the towers themselves. When City Cneter allowed third party commissioned agents to make promises and commiments City Center had an obligation to stop those pratices immediately and cure those involved,by allowing the fraud to continue City Center is complicit and legally obligated to answer up and pay.
As the law suit with Perini goes forward the more damaging facts to City Center may come forward. Not smart on City Centers part.
I am amazed at the number of small minded people who enjoy seeing other people suffer. It seems the people that have a hateful attitude towards the condo buyers are people who could not afford one themselves. Misery and small minds covy up together.
Feldman said "CityCenter is an extraordinary development. We believe the value is exceptional". If MGM feels so strongly about this, why not apply "free market" principles and let an open market determine how "exceptional" the value of a CC condo really is?
Most of the people who plunked down 20% deposits and contracted to buy these units did so 3 years ago; it took some time to construct CC; and during that period real estate values collapsed. The net worth of individuals and families throughout the country plunged as well. Now, MGM's position is to hold these buyers hostage, using their 20% deposits as leverage, and likely force many of these buyers into serious financial hardship by making them complete a purchase on property that they can no longer afford, or lose the bulk of their deposits.
If there is a general consensus that "free markets" provide the basis for sound economics, then why not simply fully refund deposits to anyone that wants to cancel their deal, list the units on the open market, and see what prices they will actually fetch in today's market? If the value is truly "exceptional", that will become apparent when tested in an open market.
"I was one of the smarter people when during the boom, various real estate agents were trying to get me to sign the bottom line and were not even interested in what I did for a living, or what my yearly income was, to know that something was amiss, and walked right out the door"
umm...news flash...that's not a real estate agents JOB to know what you do for a living. i could CARE LESS what you do for a living.
all i care about is if you are approved for a loan, and i find you a house and make sure it closes.
period.
THAT'S my job.
if you're not adult enough to say "wow...this house payment is 70% of my income...i shouldn't do this"...and you STILL buy that house...that's not MY problem as a real estate agent, that's you and your LENDER'S problem.
real estate agent does NOT equal fortune teller, investment adviser, financial adviser, or mortgage lender.
if you don't understand the basic functions of a real estate agent...you probably shouldn't buy a house.
ohhh...and you were one of the SMART ones? haha!
well, if you were so smart you WOULD have bought a house in say 2002 and sold it in 2006 for a nice little profit.
if you were so SMART...why didn't you do that?
sounds to me like you need to actually learn what a real estate agent actually DOES before you make yourself look stupid trying to "blame" them for something that isn't their responsibility.
if you eat fast food every day of your life, do you blame the cashier when your heart explodes?
Wouldn't I love to own one of these! Come on Mega Millions!
This is not only a City Center problem. Look whats happening at the Queensridge Towers project in Summerlin. Prices are down as much as 50%, and in some cases even more.
And by the way, the value of my home is down almost 50%. Its effecting everyone.
I got to agree with stevem on the blame. It was the greed of the lenders as well as the buyers. There's also a fear factor in the buyers too. They feared of missing out if they don't sign the bottom line today. That's exactly what happened in all the hot RE markets. I remembered my niece finally signed after visiting the builder and seeing the price went up week after week. Each week, the price went up over $10K.
Here's where I think the RE agents play a role. I believe most, not all, real agents did add the fuel to the fear by saying "if you wait, the price will go up and you will be missing out"
"As of Thursday afternoon, 31 of Vdara's 1,495 units had closed escrow at prices ranging from $370,000 to $871,000"
ROFL
At this rate, they will sell out the units in 2245.
Whats with all this GREED talk? You sound like Socialists (probably voted for Obama)
Without people INVESTING WITH HOPE OF MAKING A PROFIT, nothing would ever get built anywhere.
"At this rate, they will sell out the units in 2245."
Maybe by 2245 they will have a grocery store, dry cleaner and pharmacy. No sence opening one now if there only a handfull of units sold.
Your taking a big risk buying something that's not there yet. The only advantage to the buyer would be a specutive lower price. And maybe your choice of unit location and finishes.
I wouldn't let MGM sit on a few hundred thousand, while the contractor tries to build it faster than the defects can be discovered.
stevem :
Well I'll tell you my conservative angry friend, you really don't know who or what I am, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I bought my first home on S. 6th street in 1959 which was the nice neighborhood in those days. Since then I have bought and sold a few more, and I can tell you that the people in the real estate industry that I have dealt with over the years had a keen sense of who they were selling to, and a moral obligation to potential buyers to make sure they understood the obligation they were undertaking. You fly by night kids these days are exactly what your ranting post above represents, and is exactly the point I am making about recklessness, carelessness, and greed as accomplices in the recent real estate conspiracy which has just about brought down our once mighty country. If all you care about is if someone approved for a loan which they can't afford, and find them a house you know to be overvalued and make sure it closes to get your precious commission, then YOU my friend were part of the problem! Since as you say you had no stake in the lending process, nor do you care, look where it got you, stuck in the mud of todays depression! Don't worry about me I'm just fine, but next time around (if there is one) maybe your industry will learn it's lesson.
Here's where I think the RE agents play a role. I believe most, not all, real agents did add the fuel to the fear by saying "if you wait, the price will go up and you will be missing out"
They all say that. It's really up to you to decide. Real estate agents telling you "the price will go up" is like a stock broker saying "buy MGM stock because the price will go up." There is no way to know that is going to happen and believing that is really a fools way to buy or invest.
Most who bought wanted "in" pre construction. They paid a price for that luxury. That's their problem. Ultimately there is no way of knowing if a Albertsons or Von's is going to set up shop unless it is clearly written into your contract.
I also doubt that those that want refunds are because they didn't "deliver a pharmacy" to them. They want a refund because they feel they paid too much. It doesn't work that way. Buyer beware.
Just too much greed went on.
once again...
a house is not over-valued if someone pays for it at that price.
is a porsche over-valued?
nope. it's worth EXACTLY what someone bought one for today. if nobody pays that much for one next week, or the week after that...and they don't lower the price...it will be "over-valued". the minute they lower the price at someone buys one...it will be EXACTLY valued.
if you can't get that concept into your head, i feel sorry for you.
younger people that couldn't afford homes in the 2000's can now BUY homes. does that mean they are "under-valued"?
the same market system that makes home rise in value is the EXACT same some that makes them decrease in value. the first time buyers that are snapping up homes at 40% of what they were in 2007 probably aren't complaining about "greedy" and "liar" realtors.
my "precious" commission is how i earn my living. it's how i pay my rent, take clients to lunch at your restaurants, wash my car at your car washes, etc.
when things were booming, nobody seemed to have a problem taking my "greedy" money, did they?
i have no moral obligation. sorry, but you will not hang that on me.
there is no way for me to know from the minute they get the keys to that house what they or the market will do. if YOU earn 50% of your income based on tips from tourists, and tourists stop coming or you get laid off...and you default on that loan...how is that MY moral obligation?
that's YOUR obligation. not mine.
it's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, folks.
i know that isn't in the liberal dictionary, but it IS in mine.
stevem :
Your merely sticking your head in the sand with statements like :
" A house is not over-valued if someone pays for it at that price."
My response to this concept is that someone has to step back, use their common sense and realize that home and property values are way out of control, and checks and balances must be applied to prevent the recent calamity which we now face.
" I have no moral obligation. sorry, but you will not hang that on me."
WE ALL have a moral obligation to do what is right and proper in our lines of work, as you say yourself : " It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, folks."
C'mon stevem, real estate brokers have to bear some of the responsibility for their role in the real estate meltdown..
He** always freezes over in regards to my opinion of stevem and his posts when it comes to this issue. He happens to be dead right and very clear in his responses - both rare and impressive.
This is an issue of personal responsibility; had real estate values doubled again every two years as they did in 2004-2006, there isn't anyone alive who would be calling real estate agents and mortgage brokers crooks. Instead, they'd all be enjoying the fruits of their investments.
But because it went the other way, people like environprotector want to shove the blame in any direction they can. Please. If you have actually been here since 1959, environprotector, then you have me beat by a year or three, so I wonder how someone with your mentality survived all these years in a city that prides itself on personal responsibility and a refreshing lack of a safety net.
"WE ALL have a moral obligation to do what is right and proper in our lines of work" - So, you would then have expected real estate agents to act as investment prognosticators, to wit, "This house has doubled in value for the past two years. Historically our appreciation rate has been 4%. You should make an offer that is about 45% less than asking price."
Silly. If BUYERS would not have chased the lure of easy money, then SELLERS would have had to lower asking prices. AGENTS have nothing to do with that. (And no, I'm not in the business; I've never been involved in the sale of real estate other than as an owner.)
Those trying to negotiate deposit refunds are all trying to game the system. Why not? I do not blame them. But to say for one instant that "greed" or bad real estate agents are to blame for anything is blind foolishness.
It's just money, people, and in ten years this will all be a bad memory.
When I sign a contract it is my responsibily and no one elses. If I was promised, in writing, amenities or a specific timeline then that would be different.
When CC first released, I looked into it and it didn't make sense for me. It was not a gamble I wanted to make.
It's not exactly like these were little old ladies from Pasadena who bought the high end condos. Remember when investors were flipping units four and five times before projects were even built? Well when you gamble and lose, you lose. Right?
"that someone has to step back, use their common sense and realize that home and property values are way out of control, and checks and balances must be applied to prevent the recent calamity which we now face."
dude...once again...
THAT IS NOT MY JOB AS A REALTOR!
if i second and third guessed what people could afford (again...not my job)...i'd never freaking sell a house.
when you buy a new car...it loses what...20% of it's value the minute it leaves the lot, right?
so...should the car salesman not earn a living and not sell you a car...THAT YOU WANT to buy?
should every car company never sell a new car again because they have some kind of moral obligation to you the minute you leave the lot?
when you go to the butcher and you buy a steak...that steak immediately loses value when it leaves the store...does the butcher have a moral obligation to you for the VALUE of that steak?
why is a real estate agent any different?
dude, your argument just doesn't hold water and the very fact many of the people that normally call me a "moron" agree with me...i would say it's time for you to simmer down.
what people don't understand is that realtors' fortunes rise and fall along with the market as well as the owners.
if prices are going up and up, sure we make more money in commission. 3% of $300,000 is WAY nicer in 2007 than 3% of the $180,000 which is just about what that $300,000 house is worth today.
so when YOU get into a house that you can't afford and it goes to foreclosure, and all the other homes drop in your neighborhood...i suffer as well. where is YOUR moral obligation to ME?
i didn't make you re-fi and take all your equity and go buy a hummer or go to san diego for a weekend.
"WE ALL have a moral obligation to do what is right and proper in our lines of work, as you say yourself : " It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, folks.""
i am NOT a lender! what part of THAT do you not understand?
i don't "tell" you what home you can or can't buy. you say "i am approved for $150,000 worth of house".
i find you THE best 4 or 5 homes in that price and you pick one.
if i know a house has mold or something wrong with the HOUSE physically, sure...i have an obligation to report that to you, but i don't put a gun to your head and make you sign a loan document for a house you can't afford and i have no control over if it goes up or down in value.
if we are to be blamed for the meltdown...then we are also to blame for the boom, are we not?
you're welcome all of you that bought and sold between 2000 - 2006. our "devious" efforts made you a pile of money.
Stevem;
I usually end up laughing at your posts, some are pretty good! In this case I agree with you 100%. I'm not a realtor, but heavily involved in real estate and I think it's time for somebody in this Country to own up to their responsibilities. I have several friends/acquaintances who overpaid and want to short-sell/foreclose/BK so that they can avoid the contract they no longer want to be held to. Sorry folks, even in a divorce, somebody's gotta pay. Just because someone didn't realize they had a 2nd on their house, should we let them out of their contract?
You wanted that condo unit and were probably bragging to everyone within earshot about how much money you were going to make, but wait; I hear the music playing "What goes up, must come down".
I have lost 50% in my home value, but I also traded up from another Vegas home. I don't blame my realtor, but according to enviro, maybe I should??? If I'm unhappy in my marriage who do I blame? My choice of clothes?
I saw my Cousin on TV because his home was being foreclosed and I asked him WTH? He said they promised me this and that, but they foreclosed instead. I asked him, why didn't you just pay the mortgage? He looked at me like I was speaking another language.
Steve's analogy of car buying is dead on!
stevem:
So your saying that you have no responsibility but to stand back and let a lender lend money to someone you know can't afford the house you just sold them, which you suspect will go into foreclosure and as you say above you suffer as well, so where is your moral obligation to yourself? All I'm saying is that if the real estate agents see a train wreck coming, why not warn the engineer that the tracks are broken BEFORE he gets there? it would be better for everyone involved. Certainly there are people that you show a home to who have provided proof of liquidity and employment where the risk is minimal. I fully understand your role has nothing to do with lending, but why stand back and watch the train wreck? That's just being part of the problem, not the solution.
RPJ has no idea who I am, or what I'm capable of, but he can spout his hate all he wants, doesn't bother me in the least..
sheez, some of you sure must be living in the penthouses condisdering all the hot air being expended on these comments... does anyone have a life anymore, or are days and days just spent commenting and petty bickering at each other anonymously in a "comments" section?
Moral responsibility--to be, in a sense, our brother's keeper, is certainly a matter of individual disposition. If I were a real estate broker and I could see that a client was relying on my judgment as to whether nor not he or she she should assume a certain level of indebtedness, I would feel obligated to help the client fully understand the financial risks involved.
If a client demonstrates that he needs no such assistance, then why should I step in his path?
But to say that the broker should just look the other way and let the buyer beware, who ever he may be, seems, yes, rather immoral.
Should I sell you a another shot of whiskey when I can see it will put you at great risk of causing a serious accident even though it is your choice to drink it?
Thank you In2wishin FINALLY someone gets my point!!
About 3 years ago I was getting close to retirement and was looking at moving to Las Vegas when these places were still a concept and building on speculation. They had a on line questionaire about what you wanted in the complex. I wrote back the whole nine yards! Putting greens, sauna, barber shop, salon on and on.....they asked financial questions....I replied that I would have ZERO DOLLARS to put down...they asked how much that I would have to pay for mortgage each month...I replied i was getting 2000 a month in my pension check and I would be LUCKY TO HAVE 200 dollars left each month to pay on the mortgage after gambling and drinking and probably getting drunk on a daily basis celebrating my retirement...CAN YOU BELIEVE THE NUMBER OF SALES PERSONS THAT CALLED ME???? I knew over 3 years ago that Vegas was in serious trouble....just as soon as the phone rang the first time....
Real Estate agents for the most part work for the seller of the property.
Their job is to find a buyer for the property and get the highest price possible for the seller.
Is this immoral or dishonest? NO. It is the buyer's responsibility to negotiate the lowest price possible.
If the seller asks more than the buyer is willing to pay.....no deal. If the buyer offers less than the seller is willing to accept.....no deal.
Are there dishonest real estate agents? Yes, of course there are. Are there honest ones? Yes.
It is my obligation as a buyer, whether buying a house, a car, a refrigerator, or whatever to get a fair deal. If the cost is too much, I walk.
If I take out a loan I MAKE THE PAYMENTS!!! If I paid too much, too bad for me, I still have to make the payments.
If fraud is involved, that's different, but simply paying too much isn't fraud.
One thing the crash has done is to weed out a lot of the fly by night real estate people.
Buy from a reputable Realtor, there are plenty who will treat you fair.
I don't mind salespeople making a living off of my business, I just don't want to be the one they mention when a friend asks: "what was the most you ever made on a deal"?
environprotector and In2wishin are a clear example of what happens when you put two or more liberals together . everything is always someone elses fault
bitemeforever :
First of all you couldn't think of a more dignified user name than that? and secondly if you read some of my posts, you can clearly see that my political
philosophy is not even close to the left.
Can't the people just give them what they need and were promised? I mean for once. All we kept hearing about when city center was being made was ooooh its going to have everything you need. And now what? People even at that time regardless if they have money or not(which should not be an issue) counted on that. I mean if your going to live on the strip you don't want to drive and deal with the craziness That is the Las Vegas Strip. Live there yes deal with the headaches, not so much. Hopefully this will be resolved soon.
I think the blame is wide spread,from the FEDERAL RESERVES all the way to the CONSUMER....The consumer takes the most of the blame in my opinion....I also believe the TRUE value of a home is what it sells for at the BOTTOM not the top of a market.....ME personally,I would never buy anything sight unseen....
Sisolak should organize a town hall meeting and roll out his "It's a quagmire, but it's getting untangled." quote.
Oh, and maybe the Fire Palace er...Station would be a good place to hold the meeting.
Dateline did a story a while back on on "Predatory Lending" as they called it....There was this lady on there who's mortgage was MORE than she Grossed Monthly....She signed the dotted line even though her mortgaged was more than she MADE,she COULDN'T EVEN make the FIRST payment!!Ultimately it was her fault,and the banks shouldn't be suprised why they forclosed.......Again the blame is wide spread,but the consumer had the last word IMO.....
The way I see it, the investors took a risk like with any other investment. Real Estate is not a guarantee. The investors in this case are both the developer and the buyer of the units. Both need to take responsibility. It sounds like the developer has stepped up by offering 30% discounts. Those waiting for more are greedy and not accepting responsibility for their decisions. Nobody saw this economic downturn. Why should the developer take the full hit?
A concern I would have is if society holds developers responsible for the full impact of the economic downturn, what will happen to the developer and the jobs they provide? I know many think they have money that will forever flow but if their funds are restricted, jobs will be lost and the developments will suffer by not being maintained as their money is limited - subcontractors will be out of work, those who own units will suffer, manufactures will lose business and yet more people layed off. There are serious ramifications that can come from the greed of those who are not willing to take responsibility for their decisions made before this economic downturn. A big conglomerate like this is not just a company. It is jobs and security for thousands. It is run by people. It is not just a "company" - it employees directly and indirectly a good number of people. How can society survive if those people are not longer employed? What will Vegas do if you spiral even further? I don't live there but I enjoy visiting. I want Vegas to recouperate but decisions like these can have a huge impact on your economy. Both parties should take responsiblity not just one.
Here's a win-win for the people not getting back full deposits for City Center: MGM Mirage has TONS of properties. Give these people full retail credit at their resorts, restaurants, and shows for the balance. MGM still saves money because this is a full retail - not a wholesale credit. If people still want their cash back they can keep fighting for that. But I think MGM would be smart making that offer.
kcoll,
you sound like a big government type guy. maybe the government should regulate who takes risk and how much the developer vs. the investor gets to lose?
environprotector - you're DEAD ON concerning your position on real estate broker's responsibilities. For someone to say something is worth what someone is willing to pay for - like some in these posts - then the "Lemon Laws" on the books for used cars should be thrown out the window. When someone knows a product like a broken down used car - or paper on a house - is NOT worth what it's being sold for - that bear's even LEGAL scrutiny on the seller.
You put the real estate industry on trial with a jury and it wouldn't be hard for a jury to figure out that they knew they were selling unrealistic mortgages to people that they KNEW were incapable of affording a home or land. I'm not saying the buyers didn't want their fantasy of home ownership to be real. They fulfilled their fantasy with a smile and a pen in hand from their realtor.
The real estate industry made a KILLING and they knew exactly what they were doing because they are smart people. I mean, they say they're smart and I don't doubt that so they must have seen this coming. Otherwise they're not so smart after all. If that's the case and they thought the mortgages they were offering were an excellent product and was something that all their buyers could afford, then yeah - they're to be held blameless for not knowing any better themselves.
"For someone to say something is worth what someone is willing to pay for - like some in these posts - then the "Lemon Laws" on the books for used cars should be thrown out the window."
Uh, we're talking about REAL ESTATE not automobiles, and we're talking about PURCHASE PRICE not FUNCTIONALITY. An automobile has a mechanical function, and if it fails to perform that mechanical function within a specified period of time, then the Lemon Laws are consulted.
Likewise, there are laws and legal relief available to people who buy new homes that have FUNCTIONAL DEFECTS.
What you are saying is that if someone buys a Maserati, the Maserati salesman is responsible for determining if the buyer can afford it. WRONG. The LENDER is responsible for determining that. The salesman is responsible only for informing the buyer about the car. Also by your logic, if the Maserati buyer realizes the next day that the $125,000 car he just bought is now worth $75,000, that somehow the dealer is responsible for that.
How can grow-up people think and talk that way?
And, enviroprotector, who said, "RPJ has no idea who I am, or what I'm capable of, but he can spout his hate all he wants, doesn't bother me in the least.." What are you talking about, dude? There is nothing hateful whatsoever in my comment. You are dazed and confused.
"What you are saying is that if someone buys a Maserati, the Maserati salesman is responsible for determining if the buyer can afford it. WRONG. The LENDER is responsible for determining that." I suppose you're right. And of course I suppose the car salesman is hoping that the Lender approves the loan so they get their commission. In fact - they'll come up with all sorts of ways to try to figure out how the buyer can be approved by the Lender. Never seen a salesman go, "oh, well, too bad - have a nice day!" Right.
"Also by your logic, if the Maserati buyer realizes the next day that the $125,000 car he just bought is now worth $75,000, that somehow the dealer is responsible for that." On this analogy I'm having a difficult time. Cars don't have 20-30 year car payments and mortgage default swaps to turn to if the buyer goes belly up. They just repo the car.
But I still maintain because some sucker thinks a product is worth so much when it's not true, doesn't let the seller off the hook saying "it's what the market will bear." The seller of the item thousands of times has been charged with fraud by district attorneys or attorneys general.
I'm not trying to stop realtors from making a living. But the "What? Who me?" thing is more than questionable.
Dear Stevem, honesty is a great policy. I had a real estate agent swear that vegas had bottomed out in October 2008. Past experience with bubble markets saved me from paying cash for a LLV Southshore house and golf membership. You wonder why people have absolutely no trust in real estate people.
Real estate professionals should try to focus on the long term of building relationships and placing people in a position to make money. Not just close another sale. Oops there I go with ethics. Behavior like that has made a lot of people very wealthy.
Just keep focusing on that next condo bud you will do just fine
I think environprotector bought.
Oh yeah realtors are smart, regular rocket scientists.